March 24, 2025 • 50 mins
Greg and Edie describe their son's eight-year journey through heroin addiction which impacts the family in profound ways. They describe how it disrupted their lives and how they grappled with the difficult and scary decisions of how much to help. They share the tools they learned that gave them wisdom, health, and peace.
According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, 40.3 million people in the United States had a substance abuse disorder in 2020. This means that at least two family members were impacted for a minimum of 80.6 million people whose lives were disrupted. It is more likely a minimum of four people making it a total of 161.2 million people who have been affected by a family member's drug use. Of those 40.3 million people with substance use disorder, only 6.5 percent received treatment.
Their son got clean after many rehabs and 127 changes in where he lived over eight years after finally hitting his bottom. If you have a loved one who is imprisoned by addiction, listen to this story. It will give you experience, strength, and hope for your journey. #addictionrecovery #boundaries #truthinlove #toxicrelationships
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
Welcome to Change My Relationship podcast.
My favorite thing to do is to interviewpeople who have dealt
with a relationshipchallenge and overcome it.
And I have here today,husband and wife, Greg and Eddie.
And I've known them for quite a few years.
They've done testimoniesin my classes for me.
(00:51):
They've always been willing toto come and share their story,
hoping that it gives experience, strengthand hope to other people.
And that is what we hopethat this podcast will do today.
So I would like to welcome Greg and Eddie.
thank you. Yes.
So we're going to be talkingabout their sons.
Drug use and just kind of how they,how it affected their family
(01:15):
and how they dealt with it.
And then the thingsthat they've learned from their story.
So go ahead.
And can you tell meabout your son's childhood?
Yes. So,
we adopted our son at birth, and,
he was a, a charming young kid
growing up, very, very active, ADHD,
(01:39):
lots of energy,very gifted in, like, athletics.
And, he, he his schooling
was a struggle for himbecause of his ADHD.
But he had he also had dreams
of becoming a firefighterand or a marine as a child.
So he was a it was a very active,
(02:00):
challenging child from probably age 2.
So and then what about his teen yearsand the start of his drug use?
How did that come about?
So I'll, throw in some thoughts on that.
As we look back on our journey, we wewe seem to note that probably in junior
(02:21):
high would bewhen he began to, experiment,
perhaps with some drugs,probably marijuana, that type of thing.
and was starting to choosesome poor friends.
That kind of led him, in a path thathe had no trouble following, apparently.
And then in his freshman year,we actually moved him to another school
(02:43):
hoping that he would havesome new opportunities, to restart
with some issues,and then, we discovered that there
he, made some other friendsthat maybe weren't such great influences.
He was continue to be very involvedin sports.
That was a great wayfor him to use his skills and his, energy.
But he, ended up and his junior yeardefinitely making a very
(03:10):
intentional switch into a group of friendsthat were not, healthy.
And we began to see changesin his language.
His respect at home was very poor.
We began to even see things missing.
Things, missing in the house.
From a laptop to money to our WII system.
that's when we thought, okay,something has to be.
(03:32):
We have to do somethingpretty serious here.
And that led us, at age 17,to do an intervention
where, that was the hardest thing for meever, was to do an intervention
and have him sent away to an all
boys, Christian schooloutside of California State,
where, they have more controlof keeping them there.
(03:55):
But to our disappointment, two days later,he and two other young boys
from that program, stole the vehicleand drove back to California.
And, that turned into Grand Theft Auto 17.
At that point,
that really introduced usinto, the juvenile juvenile hall
(04:17):
and, lawyers, legal matters,
long as they had a communityservice was another aspect of that.
It just became overwhelming.
So what was your marriage and familylike before at the start of the drug use?
Because let's just go backto, was your family dysfunctional?
Did you have marriage problems with,what kind of what was the home like?
(04:41):
I’ll answer that.
We we had a good, solid marriage.
We were, active members of our church.
Our children were part of the churchprogram, Sunday school every Sunday.
We were involved
with all of our children'ssports activities, both of them in sports.
And, we would do fun vacationswith our family.
And, I worked only 2 to 3 days a week
(05:04):
at that time for the purpose of havinga strong influence on our children.
So I would say we had a fairly normal.
And I'd say it's a pretty stable marriage.
Yeah.
Because I,
I rememberyou guys talking, about your story
and you really didn't have a no,no, family's perfect, but
you did not have a dysfunctional family.
You did not have marital problemsthat filled over on to your children.
(05:28):
we also had been very committedto personal counseling,
for the purpose of enhancingwho we are, our own self improvement.
that I think also contributed to justan active focus on having a good marriage.
Yeah, I remember you got you telling methat you both did separate counseling.
Kind of periodicallyjust for personal development
(05:51):
from the time you were married,which I can't honestly say.
I've heard anybody else say that.
So I was very impressed with that.
what happened, though, when you startedencountering that heavy drug use?
we initially, felt,something was wrong, right?
Obviously.
And, maybe like, similarto most parents, we,
(06:14):
we we tended to,try to control the situation.
So we would check up on him,we would, try to address
anything that, that waswhat was going on with him.
And we would I would pop homeand catch him in the middle of,
doing some things running from schooland in, using marijuana at that point,
(06:37):
which, of course,we thought that was kind of minor
at that at that time, but but,it turned out that was kind of the
start of the whole thing.
Yeah.
And how did you how did it impactyour marriage?
Well,
I, I wanted to set boundaries
(06:59):
and kind of parametersand kind of be more firm.
And Edie was more wanting to
rescue, him.
And, we kind of progressed down that path.
And it's not uncommon for a coupleto have one.
That is, the more we got to stop thisand he's got to suffer consequence is
(07:21):
and the other person to the other spouseto kind of be like, no, no, no.
he's hurting. He's having problems.We have to love him.
We have to rescue,and we can't let bad things happen.
And and part of it is the dynamicthat when one person is really strong
and, and is showing the anger,at what's going on
(07:42):
and, and we've got to, he'sgot to suffer the consequences.
We got to stop this that the other personkind of swings
like a teeter totter, you're up therewith that anger and the strong,
and then the other person is at the bottomgoing, no, no, no,
we can't be that hard.
And, it's it literally kind of goescan go back and forth like that.
So that's that's pretty common.
(08:04):
And I think that Edie didn'tyou talk about
how you kind of became obsessedwith trying to fix him.
Yes I will own that.
I, I became
extremely obsessedwith wanting to save our son.
And I will say one thing.
That kind of influenced that was thatI figured my son, our son, was adopted
(08:25):
at birth, but he was adopted,and I figured there was certainly,
probably, possibly an element of himfeeling abandoned from that point.
And then to think that would I,we would kick him out,
or that there had to be some major,
action to, bring to an end
how he was destroying our family,not just himself, but.
(08:48):
So I did become so obsessed.
It's like all I could talk about was himand what we could do to save him.
I cried a lot.
I was distractedfrom focusing on my daughter
and her needsand my husband and his needs.
He responded, feelingkind of angry at the whole situation.
And I was just, like, broken.
(09:10):
And, so that made it hard for us
but that's kind ofwhat led us to figure out we need help.
Yes. And, and I think I believe you sayingthat you're having trouble
doing your job because and that is that,that that obsession that you get
where that fear drives, that obsession,anxiety about what's going on and
and the behind the obsession iswe have to fix this.
(09:33):
But the way that that goeswhen you come out of the fear
is we have to make it better.
We have to dowhat we need to do to help him.
And then when you're feelingsome more of the anger
or the strength than it can come out.
And no, we're going to set boundaries.We got to take care of this.
But, Greg, I think you get to the pointwhere you were really frustrated
(09:54):
with her obsessing about your son.
Yes. And it
yeah, it it got to the point where,
we couldn'twe couldn't have a, conversation
without it being focused on himand what we were going to do
to rescue him or save oror help him and that sort of thing.
(10:17):
And, so we've kind ofI kind of got to the point
where it was like it was clearthat Edie was really,
like constantly, no matter where we wereor what we were doing,
it was what's going onwith, with with him, and
and so finally I said, really we need to
(10:39):
it's it's really either or,
him you're going to focus on or it's it'sour family.
It's it's it's our daughter or And,
and that kind of
caused kind of a wake up call at that.
That was a wake up call for me.
that I was so broken that I wasn'tI had no energy
(11:00):
and enthusiasm and motivationor creativity.
Beyond working,I don't know how I functioned at work.
I actually survived that.
But beyond that, my my capacity, my energyand so on was very sucked out of me.
And I absolutely knewthat I was committed to my marriage,
and I absolutely knew that I wantedto be committed to our daughter and Greg.
What he made clear to mewas that he didn't,
(11:25):
that what he wanted was
for me to understandthat our son was making the bad decisions.
He was hurting our family.
And for he needed to go.
And Greg needed him to go so that we,the ones who were making good decisions
in life, weren't going to be poisonedand, and unable to function.
(11:49):
Okay. And we we had gotten to the point
that we could trust him.
Around us.
Not at all. We, we felt violated.
We had to put locks on our doors andand inside the house
to keep him out of certain rooms.
So, I mean, it was pretty, pretty intensefor a several months or years.
(12:13):
was it at that point that you asked himto leave the home?
Yes. It was at that point that well,
he said, we just can't live here anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Which which must have been really scaryfor you, Eddie.
Well, he called me at work one dayknowing that I was about to leave
(12:34):
and said, Eddie,I just need to let you know And,
I've just set the boundary and told him,his sins are so destructive
that they're they're they'rebasically spilling on the rest of us.
And he needed to protect the family,so he had to pack up some bags and,
So you
(12:55):
just went along with that because you knewthat that was probably you.
You probably knew partlythat that was the right thing to do.
We just didn't have the strength to do ityourself.
Well, at that point,when Greg had already said to me,
Edie, it's it's either him or me it wasit was absolutely clear to me
that, I was committed to my marriageand to our daughter, and,
(13:17):
and so when he told methat I cried the whole way home.
But in my heart,I knew that that is what had to happen.
And I accepted thathis strength was what I needed.
So I discovered kind of from then on,
that my role was to be a prayer warrior.
(13:38):
And then I prayed incessantly,
and I could count on Gregto do the hard job,
which he was willing to doand had the strength to do.
Yeah.
And that's where you can come togetherand be on the same, same page,
which definitely took some of the stress.
Although living with this and having thisgo on like this, the stresses,
(14:00):
it is unbelievable.
I mean, you
you're tryingto take your obsession off your son,
but you're getting phone callscontinually from him right
after this pointwhere wanting money and wanting help and,
just the his changes that he made ashe was moving from one place to another.
(14:21):
And I think you said one timethat he called and asked for money
for boots for, like a place to stayor something, or boots to get a job.
I think this was years into it.
And you spent the money on the bootsand the uniform, and I think he was there
for a day or two and then left the bootsand the clothes in the hotel and took off.
(14:42):
I might remembering that correctly.
I think that's very possibly the case.
He, left bicycles behind.
Yeah, lots. It's alwaysit was always I need
I need a bicyclebecause I need to get to work.
And then you get him a bicycleand then, well, it got stolen, whatever.
or I'm moving on to something, somewhere.
I have nothing to eat.
(15:03):
Can you buy me a pizza? And,
it was
it never ended the excuses.
And we we really didn't
understand, right?
What was going on at that point and what
how to how to manage the situation really.
(15:24):
So you probably said yes to a lot of that.
We did a lot of it
back.
Most oftenwe said yes, that that was actually
one of the motivating factors, I think,of, kicking our son out of the house
was the financial damages
that were, occurring.
(15:45):
Yeah.
Well, a lot of the things disappearing andstuff has to do with the stealing things
and hocking them in order to get moneyto buy drugs because it's, it's not cheap.
So you have kind of like when you describe
how many years did thisgo on between the leaving your just do
we started let's say starteddrugs in junior high used all the way.
(16:07):
Didn't he start heroin in high school?
I'm not sure.
Like right after high schoolor probably late high school.
We just didn’t know that he was doing
but but definitely had the behavior
for I would say waswhen things got into harder drugs.
Okay. Yeah.
Including heroin. Yeah.
(16:29):
So and then I know that he went from
placeto place in terms of where he was living.
I'm sure he was on friends sofashe was, didn't have a car,
so he wasn't in his car.
And he went in and out of treatment.
Right. And correct.
Okay.
And that was on your insurance.
Yes. In fact,
(16:50):
he he basically figured out
how to use the insurance
to get rehabs to send airplane tickets.
So that was the beginning of him going
to literally all over the United States.
He would go into a rehab stay for a while.
Sometimes he’d complete it.
(17:11):
Other times he wouldn’t, he’d walk outand, and go back on the street into drugs,
and he would just go back and forthand really up until he was age 26, when
that's kind of
when the insurance companysays, we're no longer going to cover you.
And, and that that road, that of nice
(17:34):
rehabs ended and people pursuing him.
Yes. And so, so he had fit
they were about 15 rehabs
that he attended and,and then probably up to ten
at least detoxesor sober living situations.
(17:56):
In that window between 2014 and 2020.
Yes. And I'm sure each timethat he went in
you had something to do with helping himdo that.
I've, I've experienced that.
I know how much
emotional energy goes into thatand how much hopes you have,
(18:17):
but how much, in anxietyyou have thinking maybe it won't work.
And, there's a lot of work
with getting them in there and paperworkand all that kind of stuff.
So he, I think you said thathe also moved how many times
I recorded 127 moves
(18:39):
he has done from 2014 to today.
Yeah.
Talk about instability.
That is unbelievable.
So how did you go from that point
where and at what point did you reach outand try to get some help?
I believe attending your class,When Love Hurts
(19:00):
is the class that we attended together
and the class that really began to helpus, start taking care of ourselves
and, understandingaddiction, better understanding,
how manipulated we could become.
And, thatthat just lended us a lot of skills
(19:21):
and insights to begin to take
a little more control of our lives.
Yeah, I think you guys,I remember you guys working really hard
at the principles and applying them.
And that the way I title that it'sthe book is When Love Hurts.
And the class is Transforming DifficultRelationships just for people listening.
(19:42):
Not to be confused,but I remember talking to you about
letting go of the obsession andand how you could really relate to that.
And then I know that, detaching with love.
How did that help you?
Detaching with love was hard for me.
But I, I dealt with that
by, always assuring himwhen we had come in contact with him
(20:05):
of our love for him, and also assuring himthat I was praying for him
and that we wanted what was best for him.
But that I had to start,not taking any ownership of his choices,
not feeling responsible for his choices.
That was helpful for me.
What about you, Greg? well,
(20:26):
that was very helpful.
And it was helpful to methat Edie attended several classes,
actually, at it seemed to help her,so I participated as well.
And then a friend told mealso about Nar-Anon,
during that time period and, and,I said, Eddie, why don't we check this out
too, and,you wasn't real excited about it.
(20:49):
So I said, well, I'll just attend that.
And so I started going,I actually had a friend that I was meeting
with that was participating,and he said, I'll go with you.
And he said, I think I can help you.
And so I, we part startedparticipating there.
And I said Edie this I think will help us.
And, so then Edie started comingafter that
(21:11):
and, we continued to do that for
nine years and then and then
continued to come to your classesduring that time period as well.
And so we found, it was difficult
because there, there are,
this affectsa lot of different things in life, right?
(21:31):
Because, you, you
it's a never ending, but. Right.
It it's you, you you have church friends,you have different friends
that can tolerate, hearing the same storyover and over again because the story
doesn't end, just like everything,you say a few prayers
and, they turn aroundand and everything's fine.
(21:52):
It's it's it's a it's a struggle.
It's a long term, issue.
And, some people can handle welland some people
can't handle it.
Of friends and support system.
So we needed. Nar-Anon..
And it helped usbecause there were other people like us.
(22:12):
Yeah.
Or just like usthat that had gone through it.
And then we learned it, in your classes
as well as therapy that, it's there.
There's more than one addict.
We're addicted to the addict.
Yes. That's true.
That's a good way to say it. We are.
(22:33):
And, so, I mean, we we need thatfor our own health, and we recognize that.
Yeah.
Well, and and,when I talk about codependency,
because the way that we reactwhen we say we're addicted to the addict.
You know, could also be talked about,it's like co-addiction or codependency.
And when I talk about codependency,I will say that you can
(22:54):
you're codependent from childhoodor you can become
codependentin a dysfunctional relationship.
And that the example is you guys,
because you had a healthy home,you had a healthy relationship.
And then you had to deal all of a suddenwith extreme addiction.
And it literallythrew you into some codependent yes.
(23:18):
Behaviorsand caused problems in your relationship.
And it wasn'tbecause you didn't know boundaries
or you didn't know what a healthyrelationship was or how to communicate.
You just had this incrediblypainful problem
with somebodythat you loved dearly to deal with,
and you had to try to figure outhow do we handle this?
(23:40):
And that's why the 12 step programsfor families of addicts
and alcoholics are so helpful,because that's where you find out
how to apply the steps to yourselfto deal with somebody else's addiction.
Because without that,I think the, preamp of Al-Anon,
which is for familiesof alcoholics, Nar-Anon for families
(24:04):
with drug addiction, talksabout that without help.
It's too much for most of us.
we become irritable, angry, just we getwe're we feel angry.
We feel guilty.
We are, overcome with fear.
And we need those 12 steps to
go on that journeyof trying to figure out how
(24:26):
we can live when somebody that we love
is making a choicesto continue in an addiction.
And, the giventhe fact that your son was adopted,
I don't knowif you know anything about that.
My bio family is biological family.
Do you know, I all I, I had a lot ofthe records of, the birth mother was 18.
(24:52):
And had a from what I could tell,a healthy pregnancy, but but, I think
that, historically, there are drug, byher mother who was an addict.
Okay.
So she her mom, the bio mom was an addict.
Her mom's mom,the grandmother was an addict. Yes.
And she was actually sheshe was foster care at a young age.
(25:14):
Yeah. Okay.
But at the time of her pregnancy, duringher pregnancy, there was no drug use.
Yeah. No. Okay, so.
And then when you talk about ADHD,you talk about,
it's typical or common for people
with ADHDto have a lot of high risk behaviors.
(25:36):
So the incidence of drug useand even like the extreme of at 17
being in that programand stealing the van, I think you said
and driving all the way from like,was it Utah back to California
with two other people and with the van isit's a pretty high risk taking behavior.
(25:56):
I mean, that's pretty gutsy.
And not everyonewould be willing to do that.
But but the incidence ofbecause I haven't heard you guys
talk much about mental illness start,other than the ADHD really
didn't have severe depression anxietynot really been diagnosed bipolar or so.
It's really it's it's probably
(26:17):
highly likely, what with what we know now
about genetic addictive genes
that I knowthat's really strong in my family.
And, it's possible that that'swhere that drug addiction came from.
And, and it's we don't know that.
I'm not saying for sure,but part of that is helpful.
(26:39):
It's helpful because recognizing that
if you
have a genetic predispositionand you have risk taking behaviors
with ADHD, doesn't mean you excuse it,
but we can have compassion.
And it's not likehe was just out to ruin his life,
to ruin your lives,or because he was angry and resentful.
(27:01):
It's because he truly struggledwith addiction.
And about 50% of my
family, the family I grew up with
and also, grandparents and pair
my parents, my my dad was an alcoholic,
and about 50% of the offspring
(27:23):
within two generations is is
has genetic addiction issues.
It's really strong.
Wow. Really strong.
So I mean, it's it's possible thatthat that was had something to do with it.
So detachment really helps because youlet them deal with their own consequences.
(27:45):
But I think I remember sayingthat boundaries was always a struggle
for her to say no, and that she would handyou the phone Greg.
Yes. They you say it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'lljust add one thing back to boundaries.
I'll never forget in your class
(28:05):
when when you said
that Jesus had boundaries
and you explained how those boundarieswork, that was like,
very eye opening to me in terms of,
Jesus can set boundaries,we can set up rules,
or we should set boundaries,
(28:28):
be healthy.
Yeah.
So yes, I would be the one to say no.
if if there was somethingthat was unreasonable,
it many times it was
a judgment call.
Sometimes I would do the right thingand sometimes I wouldn't do the right,
depending upon the situation,
(28:50):
I, I will add, one areawhere I just really
was thankful for Greg, and appreciative
of his strength was,I would say literally a thousand times.
I'm sure our son would call
and say, right, can I just come home?
And, I need to come home.
(29:11):
Or if I come home, this and this,and he has all these reasons
why it's going to be okayand it's going to work.
Or he just neededthat to just the next step.
And Greg, I'm sure it was hard,
but he would get on the phoneand say, son, we love you.
We will always love you.
But that is not one of the options.
(29:33):
And that became almost like a phrase,I think, that you just had to repeat.
But we always assured himthat we loved him
and that we always would and,And he would say today
that he believes he is alive today
because of our our my faith,our faithful prayers.
(29:54):
He believes he would not be aliveotherwise
if it hadn'tbeen for our faithful prayers.
And we always kept in touch.
Yeah.
So did you get him for a cell phoneso that he could call you?
We did not keep hima cell phone. I don't think
he was on a cell phone.
I think he had a cell phonethroughout the time.
And he’d lose them, and,
(30:16):
that sort of thing, but. But.
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah, I know, I me too,
I, I, I'm rememberinga lot of what you guys have set up.
Right. You're doing a good job. Yes. Yeah.
I can't say I remember every detailabout my own life as much. But.
Yeah. So.
And just for the sake of people listening,
(30:38):
what is the reasonfor telling your child no.
When they call out in desperation,asking for money,
for foodor for a place to stay or whatever?
What?
Why would you, But why would you say no?
I would say no because, it was
it. It's
the type of thing where it it's it'senabling.
(31:01):
Really. Yes. Yes behavior.
It's kind of like, he would I'm sure,
use that money to buy drugs basically.
And we, we kind of put to a
other, send me this amount of money
and it was on a regular basisand it was always some reason. But,
(31:24):
when your eyes finally open up
and realize that, he'sjust using this for, for drugs and,
and we're supplying,which is a scary thought.
And and the other thing is,we recognize that
that we were making his life easier.
(31:45):
Basically, I've heard that term where
it's kind of like when, when they fall,you throw a mattress over them
so that they fall on the mattresswhen they really need all.
And we hit, hit their bottom.
Right.
So that they recognizethat it's their responsibility.
So we were we were,
(32:06):
it's a struggle between
setting boundaries and enabling back.
Yeah. No, that totally makes sense.
And and I know that,his journey was pretty severe going
that many different places,meaning he was moving around,
didn't have money, was went to rehabs.
(32:27):
And I know there were sober livingson top of that.
But he also had,
I think, a girlfriend right over overdosed
and a couple of friends overdosed,which is a a wake up call.
He had, fiancé actually, who,who passed away.
That was very traumatic for him.
And then later on, he had a girlfriendwho OD'd and passed away.
(32:52):
that was towardsthe end of his rehab story.
But his, his the greatest pointthat he really
hit his rock bottom was when
we said no to a rehab
that was, that that was costly
and said, you're left now to go towhatever the state will offer.
(33:16):
And he went to that programand that and that was for my dad.
That was after he had aged 26,
and he no longercould use the insurance company.
Right?
It wasn't there cash if we did it.
So anyway, the bottom line isit was after that
that he ended up done with the programand he ended up in a shelter.
(33:38):
And that shelter is where he had to
he had to serve do service in order tofor his food and his room and board
and that there was something
that was very humbling about that to him,and that was when he kind of
decided, enough of this, this,this is going nowhere.
And, and,and he had gone through his last formal
(33:59):
rehab had been a very, very good program.
Very.
And and,I have friends and myself included
who, when we have kids that are strugglingwith mental illness and,
addiction, that we've gone
back and forth and said,do we pay for the insurance?
Do we keep the insurance and, and,and that isn't necessarily
(34:24):
enabling just on the surface,
because sometimes there aren't programsthat they can get into.
I mean, the Salvation Army usually.
But, do they have beds? Dothey not have beds?
Also if they, get into a, medical crisisbecause of something, it's
kind of like the my, my friend and I say,
oh no, no, that's our insurance policy.
(34:47):
It's our insurance.
Which means thatif something happens to our kid
and there need a lot of medical care,
then we won't be facedwith that horrible decision of,
do we pay out of pocket for thatgood medical care or do we have insurance?
And we always say,if we can, if we can do it,
(35:09):
having the insuranceas long as we can is the cheaper option
for our own sanity,and also for the what ifs could happen
that we're not having to makethat really difficult decision.
And you don't know
if he would have done the same thingif you hadn't had your insurance,
(35:30):
if he would have goneto one of those programs earlier,
because addictionkind of has to run its course.
I mean, you're saying he went tothat program, but at the same time
he had lost multiple peoplethat were close to him.
Fiancé that is definitelycan make you hit a bottom,
especially when it's the second personthat you were close to that has heard of.
(35:52):
So it could have been just the convergenceof all of these things
that got him to the point where I'm at,I am done, I can't do this anymore.
Which means that he got clean.
Yes, yes, he gave up, the hard heroin.
And, I do believeit's about 5 or 6 years now.
(36:15):
It's his anniversary of that
significant change.
And he says he has no temptation, thatthat's not a temptation anymore at all.
He says, well, that's wonderful.
That's fantastic.
If that's the case,that's not an easy drug to get over.
So but that's that's a wonderful outcome.
(36:37):
And he is now what about fears of relapse?
What do I mean? He's saying he doesn't.
He is not tempted by that.
But there's got to be something in yourmind that's like.
Yeah. So
somebody who has
addictive personalities,may have a variety
of addictive issues that they faceand deal with in their life.
(36:57):
And so, it's not uncommon to, to move
from one to anotheror be vulnerable to that.
So, what we have doneis we just every single day
we pray for God's protectionand guidance in his life.
And his family's life.
And we acknowledgethat really, at this point, we really
I mean, it is up to himwhat kind of a life he wants to have.
(37:20):
And, well, and he's still dealing with,the ramifications of the years,
what I mean? What?
Once you give up addiction, thenyou have to kind of face your, your life.
So you see. Yes. Process through things.
So, so there, there, there,there's there's a lot of hope now though.
(37:42):
And for for him.
Yeah definitely.
Yeah.
You got to the, the addiction keeps youfrom having to face the pain
of whatever your pain of your life is.
And there could have been some painfrom the adoption.
There sometimes is but also
the pain of the choithe choices you've made
and the destructionthat's kind of come along the way.
(38:05):
Definitely doing that without using
some type of substanceis, is is difficult.
But, AA and and Narcotics Anonymous,they are wonderful programs
that that, rehab only gets you cleanand sober for a certain amount of time
and then you need supportfrom other people that are walking
(38:27):
the same journey with you.
So there's definitely a placefor him to get help if he needs that.
And then I think we were talking, Edie,and you had said,
I mean, he is married nowwith with family,
and he's currently he'smarried and has two kids and,
he has a great job and recentlypromoted and, and his wife is working
(38:49):
and, they, they're moving forwardand making progress.
And he has a wonderful personalitythat seems to, help them be serving him.
Well, yes. He is a hard worker.
That's somethingwe're really grateful for.
He's a very hardwhere has a strong work ethic.
some of the things that go along withthat, though, are the things the years
that you miss out on growingand your coping skills,
(39:13):
your conflict resolution skills,some of those kind of things.
if you have 6 or 8 years where
you're not focused on those those things,those are still things that can come up.
And he surprises or a challenge.
They say that an addictis as emotionally mature
as they were when they started using.
(39:35):
So if he started in junior high.
Then his maturity in in ways
is going to be backto that of somebody in junior high.
And you're right,all the problem solving, the frustration
tolerance, the abilityto handle your emotions, identify them,
all of that stuff is all somethingthat has to be learned.
(39:55):
But do you guys have natural detachmentfrom that now because he's in his own
home, his own family,
and you're not the first line of defenselike his his wife is the one
that needs to deal with,with whatever, struggles that they have.
And it's not that you don't care,but it's not, directly affecting you like
it was when he was calling youall the time for help.
(40:19):
So I know that, you learned
a lot during that time, and you
the boundaries especially, I remember
many times, you you did eventually learnboundary boundaries, Edie,
because I do rememberyou giving me examples of of times
that you were, you said you'dyou'd still fight within yourself,
(40:40):
but that you were able to say noand you were able to stand firm
and set some boundaries.
So, I, I did finally have that capacity,
but boy, that was the hardest thing for mefor sure.
Yeah, it well, I think it's hard for awhen when they pull your heart strings
and especially moms being, nurturing and,
it's it's difficult to say no and,and let them struggle.
(41:02):
But they don't they really don't growuntil they have to do it on their own.
But I know you talked a little bitabout your daughter
and that she felt neglectedwhile all of this was going on with him
because she was in high school,she was younger than him
and in high school also.
And, she had quite a bit of resentmenttowards him.
(41:22):
Right.That took a while for them to work out.
he felt not seen
because our resources emotional, physicaland financial at times,
were being consumed with, say,trying to save our son and that.
And that's not to fully neglect herby any means,
because I was very sensitive about thatalso for her needs.
(41:46):
But she had to hear and watch the conflictthat would happen in the home,
and then she would want to go to her roomand, feel like she's forced in there
by virtue of just feeling, protectingherself from the chaos at times.
And she was very troubledand hurt, by the pain
she saw that we experienced through this.
(42:10):
And so she definitely became
very resentful of her brother.
And, and really carriedthat for a very long time.
It was only about two years ago,or a year and a half ago,
that our son was in the areafor about a year,
and they had opportunityto to work through some of that.
(42:31):
And, and that was a beautiful,a beautiful opportunity,
where they actually started to have timetogether once a week to just hang out.
And, but for her, the jury's out
all the time.
She she's very protective still,
but she wants to have a closerelationship.
(42:52):
Closer than it is. Would make her happier.
Yeah.
And and you guysstill have an open relationship with him?
He calls him.
Absolutely. Yeah. He loves us dearly.
He is ever so thankful for how we'vestood there, through thick and thin.
we're planning,a summer vacation in June and
(43:13):
for two weeks when the baby arrived.
And so we're very much a part of,supporting their life.
Wonderful.
So what would you like to say to listenerswho have children using drugs
to give them hope,but also advice on how to respond?
really there's we we've talked about thisall along the way, but
(43:33):
but until the addict is ready to quit,
there's really not a whole lotthat you can do as a, as a parent
other than just walk the journey
and learnhow to deal with, your own issues,
and how to stay in your own lane,so to speak, through the process
(43:54):
of setting up boundariesand that sort of thing.
So it's very important to realize that,
that you really don'tyou can't control person
and tell them to stop usinguntil they're ready to do that.
I think the other thing is, is,
is get involved with support.
There's a lot of support out there,that we have access to.
(44:16):
Attend your classes, attend the Nar-Anonor Al-Anon or whatever.
is just the best fit.
I think also, prayer, our,
our faith was,I don't know how people do it without.
Yeah.
To be able to surviveand and know that God will work
all things out, for our good.
(44:36):
Yeah. That he cares about us and loves us.
And, I, I
think those are, those are several thingsI think
you may want to
mention that,I guess the last thing is that, as long as
as our children or loved one
or whoever we're talking aboutis, is is still alive,
(44:57):
there's there's hope, for themand, that that's critical.
We need to have hope. Yeah.
And I and I would add,there are a lot of slogans you learn, in
Nar-Anyon and when you're trying to growin your understanding of addiction
and difficult relationshipsand the three C's was really helpful.
I had to remind myself that often,which say that I didn't,
(45:20):
I didn't, I didn't cause it.
I can't control it and I can't cure it.
So I myself, Edie cannot doall those things for someone else.
Yeah.
I had to remind we had to remind ourselvesthat often, one day at a time.
I say that to my son,and he says, I hate that.
And I
but the truth is, I love it
(45:42):
because to me, I do believe with God'shelp, I can get through one day at a time.
And sometimes that's allI need to get through.
And so in that believe
that, God will give you what you needto get through at least one day.
Yes. letting go and let God that
that letting gowas probably the hardest thing for me.
And, and I feel like,it's taken this many years for me
(46:05):
to understand that bettersuch that now, I'm realizing that,
if I don't ask so many questions,I don't need to deal with
somebody else's issues.
So you don't want to knoweverything, right?
I don't need to know everything.
Then I don't have to worryabout everything.
And I'm no longer responsiblefor any of his world.
(46:28):
He's an adult now and so on.
It's not that I don't carebecause I care deeply, but,
we're separate people separate.
I'm learning that is actually healthy.
So allow your loved one
to take responsibility forfor how they live their life.
Yes. Absolutely healthyand absolutely necessary.
(46:51):
And if we do take responsibilityfor our children's lives,
they're not going to take responsibilityfor their own lives.
It's at some pointit's going to fall apart
and they're going to have to learnhow to do it.
So it's just a question of, like you said,when do we want to let go and let God?
And that's really, pivotal.
But I like the idea of leaving
(47:13):
peoplewith the thought that you said great,
which is as long as your lovedone is alive, there is still hope.
And I don't mean the hopefor every morning
you get up and you're anxious all daylong.
Thinking is today the day?
But because then that will get you backinto that constant panic and fear.
But just being ableto turn that person over to God
(47:36):
and saying God, I know you can do it.
I can't, I can't cure it,I can't cure it, I cannot control it.
But God, you take it.
And with God's help, with God's
help in that person's life, there is hope.
Yes, definitely.
Could I add, I mean, I justI think Greg said it, but,
(47:58):
this is not a journeyyou can do alone at all.
No. So I,
I just
highly encourage anybody that's in this,in this struggle
to make sure you find people
or organizations or resource sources
to, Karla's classes to participate in,because it's through that
(48:19):
that you can growand remember that you're ultimately
going to be responsiblefor what you do with your life.
I, I, I felt I faced that at one timewhen I realized God was going to
I was going to face my lifebefore God one day,
and he was going to say,what did you do with your life?
And and I thought, at the momentI would have to say,
I'm so wounded and I'm in so much pain.
(48:40):
I really didn't do a whole lot.
And that was a turning pointfor me to realize,
that I neededto pay attention to my life, even
while my son wasn't doing a very good jobof paying attention to his life.
Yeah, and being distracted.
Well, thank you both very muchfor sharing your story.
And in the 12 step program.
(49:01):
So we say your story of your experience,strength and hope
leading off with that,leaving off with that word hope so.
And your story,your son's story is hopeful as many times
as he moved as many yearswith the heavy drugs of heroin
and literally getting to the pointwhere he's now clean for so long
(49:22):
and in a family isis definitely a story of hope.
So thank you again for sharing it.
You're welcome.
So I'd like to thank you for listeningto this podcast on Change My Relationship.
And if you know somebody
that would benefit from this,please share this podcast with them
and I'll look forward to,being with you the next time.
(49:44):
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
(50:07):
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to a podcast by ChangeMy Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These podcast are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today, Karla will be interviewing a guestwho has experienced
a relationship problemand successfully worked through it.
(00:29):
Welcome to Change My Relationship podcast.
My favorite thing to do is to interviewpeople who have dealt
with a relationshipchallenge and overcome it.
And I have here today,husband and wife, Greg and Eddie.
And I've known them for quite a few years.
They've done testimoniesin my classes for me.
(00:51):
They've always been willing toto come and share their story,
hoping that it gives experience, strengthand hope to other people.
And that is what we hopethat this podcast will do today.
So I would like to welcome Greg and Eddie.
thank you. Yes.
So we're going to be talkingabout their sons.
Drug use and just kind of how they,how it affected their family
(01:15):
and how they dealt with it.
And then the thingsthat they've learned from their story.
So go ahead.
And can you tell meabout your son's childhood?
Yes. So,
we adopted our son at birth, and,
he was a, a charming young kid
growing up, very, very active, ADHD,
(01:39):
lots of energy,very gifted in, like, athletics.
And, he, he his schooling
was a struggle for himbecause of his ADHD.
But he had he also had dreams
of becoming a firefighterand or a marine as a child.
So he was a it was a very active,
(02:00):
challenging child from probably age 2.
So and then what about his teen yearsand the start of his drug use?
How did that come about?
So I'll, throw in some thoughts on that.
As we look back on our journey, we wewe seem to note that probably in junior
(02:21):
high would bewhen he began to, experiment,
perhaps with some drugs,probably marijuana, that type of thing.
and was starting to choosesome poor friends.
That kind of led him, in a path thathe had no trouble following, apparently.
And then in his freshman year,we actually moved him to another school
(02:43):
hoping that he would havesome new opportunities, to restart
with some issues,and then, we discovered that there
he, made some other friendsthat maybe weren't such great influences.
He was continue to be very involvedin sports.
That was a great wayfor him to use his skills and his, energy.
But he, ended up and his junior yeardefinitely making a very
(03:10):
intentional switch into a group of friendsthat were not, healthy.
And we began to see changesin his language.
His respect at home was very poor.
We began to even see things missing.
Things, missing in the house.
From a laptop to money to our WII system.
that's when we thought, okay,something has to be.
(03:32):
We have to do somethingpretty serious here.
And that led us, at age 17,to do an intervention
where, that was the hardest thing for meever, was to do an intervention
and have him sent away to an all
boys, Christian schooloutside of California State,
where, they have more controlof keeping them there.
(03:55):
But to our disappointment, two days later,he and two other young boys
from that program, stole the vehicleand drove back to California.
And, that turned into Grand Theft Auto 17.
At that point,
that really introduced usinto, the juvenile juvenile hall
(04:17):
and, lawyers, legal matters,
long as they had a communityservice was another aspect of that.
It just became overwhelming.
So what was your marriage and familylike before at the start of the drug use?
Because let's just go backto, was your family dysfunctional?
Did you have marriage problems with,what kind of what was the home like?
(04:41):
I’ll answer that.
We we had a good, solid marriage.
We were, active members of our church.
Our children were part of the churchprogram, Sunday school every Sunday.
We were involved
with all of our children'ssports activities, both of them in sports.
And, we would do fun vacationswith our family.
And, I worked only 2 to 3 days a week
(05:04):
at that time for the purpose of havinga strong influence on our children.
So I would say we had a fairly normal.
And I'd say it's a pretty stable marriage.
Yeah.
Because I,
I rememberyou guys talking, about your story
and you really didn't have a no,no, family's perfect, but
you did not have a dysfunctional family.
You did not have marital problemsthat filled over on to your children.
(05:28):
we also had been very committedto personal counseling,
for the purpose of enhancingwho we are, our own self improvement.
that I think also contributed to justan active focus on having a good marriage.
Yeah, I remember you got you telling methat you both did separate counseling.
Kind of periodicallyjust for personal development
(05:51):
from the time you were married,which I can't honestly say.
I've heard anybody else say that.
So I was very impressed with that.
what happened, though, when you startedencountering that heavy drug use?
we initially, felt,something was wrong, right?
Obviously.
And, maybe like, similarto most parents, we,
(06:14):
we we tended to,try to control the situation.
So we would check up on him,we would, try to address
anything that, that waswhat was going on with him.
And we would I would pop homeand catch him in the middle of,
doing some things running from schooland in, using marijuana at that point,
(06:37):
which, of course,we thought that was kind of minor
at that at that time, but but,it turned out that was kind of the
start of the whole thing.
Yeah.
And how did you how did it impactyour marriage?
Well,
I, I wanted to set boundaries
(06:59):
and kind of parametersand kind of be more firm.
And Edie was more wanting to
rescue, him.
And, we kind of progressed down that path.
And it's not uncommon for a coupleto have one.
That is, the more we got to stop thisand he's got to suffer consequence is
(07:21):
and the other person to the other spouseto kind of be like, no, no, no.
he's hurting. He's having problems.We have to love him.
We have to rescue,and we can't let bad things happen.
And and part of it is the dynamicthat when one person is really strong
and, and is showing the anger,at what's going on
(07:42):
and, and we've got to, he'sgot to suffer the consequences.
We got to stop this that the other personkind of swings
like a teeter totter, you're up therewith that anger and the strong,
and then the other person is at the bottomgoing, no, no, no,
we can't be that hard.
And, it's it literally kind of goescan go back and forth like that.
So that's that's pretty common.
(08:04):
And I think that Edie didn'tyou talk about
how you kind of became obsessedwith trying to fix him.
Yes I will own that.
I, I became
extremely obsessedwith wanting to save our son.
And I will say one thing.
That kind of influenced that was thatI figured my son, our son, was adopted
(08:25):
at birth, but he was adopted,and I figured there was certainly,
probably, possibly an element of himfeeling abandoned from that point.
And then to think that would I,we would kick him out,
or that there had to be some major,
action to, bring to an end
how he was destroying our family,not just himself, but.
(08:48):
So I did become so obsessed.
It's like all I could talk about was himand what we could do to save him.
I cried a lot.
I was distractedfrom focusing on my daughter
and her needsand my husband and his needs.
He responded, feelingkind of angry at the whole situation.
And I was just, like, broken.
(09:10):
And, so that made it hard for us
but that's kind ofwhat led us to figure out we need help.
Yes. And, and I think I believe you sayingthat you're having trouble
doing your job because and that is that,that that obsession that you get
where that fear drives, that obsession,anxiety about what's going on and
and the behind the obsession iswe have to fix this.
(09:33):
But the way that that goeswhen you come out of the fear
is we have to make it better.
We have to dowhat we need to do to help him.
And then when you're feelingsome more of the anger
or the strength than it can come out.
And no, we're going to set boundaries.We got to take care of this.
But, Greg, I think you get to the pointwhere you were really frustrated
(09:54):
with her obsessing about your son.
Yes. And it
yeah, it it got to the point where,
we couldn'twe couldn't have a, conversation
without it being focused on himand what we were going to do
to rescue him or save oror help him and that sort of thing.
(10:17):
And, so we've kind ofI kind of got to the point
where it was like it was clearthat Edie was really,
like constantly, no matter where we wereor what we were doing,
it was what's going onwith, with with him, and
and so finally I said, really we need to
(10:39):
it's it's really either or,
him you're going to focus on or it's it'sour family.
It's it's it's our daughter or And,
and that kind of
caused kind of a wake up call at that.
That was a wake up call for me.
that I was so broken that I wasn'tI had no energy
(11:00):
and enthusiasm and motivationor creativity.
Beyond working,I don't know how I functioned at work.
I actually survived that.
But beyond that, my my capacity, my energyand so on was very sucked out of me.
And I absolutely knewthat I was committed to my marriage,
and I absolutely knew that I wantedto be committed to our daughter and Greg.
What he made clear to mewas that he didn't,
(11:25):
that what he wanted was
for me to understandthat our son was making the bad decisions.
He was hurting our family.
And for he needed to go.
And Greg needed him to go so that we,the ones who were making good decisions
in life, weren't going to be poisonedand, and unable to function.
(11:49):
Okay. And we we had gotten to the point
that we could trust him.
Around us.
Not at all. We, we felt violated.
We had to put locks on our doors andand inside the house
to keep him out of certain rooms.
So, I mean, it was pretty, pretty intensefor a several months or years.
(12:13):
was it at that point that you asked himto leave the home?
Yes. It was at that point that well,
he said, we just can't live here anymore.
Yeah, yeah.
Which which must have been really scaryfor you, Eddie.
Well, he called me at work one dayknowing that I was about to leave
(12:34):
and said, Eddie,I just need to let you know And,
I've just set the boundary and told him,his sins are so destructive
that they're they're they'rebasically spilling on the rest of us.
And he needed to protect the family,so he had to pack up some bags and,
So you
(12:55):
just went along with that because you knewthat that was probably you.
You probably knew partlythat that was the right thing to do.
We just didn't have the strength to do ityourself.
Well, at that point,when Greg had already said to me,
Edie, it's it's either him or me it wasit was absolutely clear to me
that, I was committed to my marriageand to our daughter, and,
(13:17):
and so when he told methat I cried the whole way home.
But in my heart,I knew that that is what had to happen.
And I accepted thathis strength was what I needed.
So I discovered kind of from then on,
that my role was to be a prayer warrior.
(13:38):
And then I prayed incessantly,
and I could count on Gregto do the hard job,
which he was willing to doand had the strength to do.
Yeah.
And that's where you can come togetherand be on the same, same page,
which definitely took some of the stress.
Although living with this and having thisgo on like this, the stresses,
(14:00):
it is unbelievable.
I mean, you
you're tryingto take your obsession off your son,
but you're getting phone callscontinually from him right
after this pointwhere wanting money and wanting help and,
just the his changes that he made ashe was moving from one place to another.
(14:21):
And I think you said one timethat he called and asked for money
for boots for, like a place to stayor something, or boots to get a job.
I think this was years into it.
And you spent the money on the bootsand the uniform, and I think he was there
for a day or two and then left the bootsand the clothes in the hotel and took off.
(14:42):
I might remembering that correctly.
I think that's very possibly the case.
He, left bicycles behind.
Yeah, lots. It's alwaysit was always I need
I need a bicyclebecause I need to get to work.
And then you get him a bicycleand then, well, it got stolen, whatever.
or I'm moving on to something, somewhere.
I have nothing to eat.
(15:03):
Can you buy me a pizza? And,
it was
it never ended the excuses.
And we we really didn't
understand, right?
What was going on at that point and what
how to how to manage the situation really.
(15:24):
So you probably said yes to a lot of that.
We did a lot of it
back.
Most oftenwe said yes, that that was actually
one of the motivating factors, I think,of, kicking our son out of the house
was the financial damages
that were, occurring.
(15:45):
Yeah.
Well, a lot of the things disappearing andstuff has to do with the stealing things
and hocking them in order to get moneyto buy drugs because it's, it's not cheap.
So you have kind of like when you describe
how many years did thisgo on between the leaving your just do
we started let's say starteddrugs in junior high used all the way.
(16:07):
Didn't he start heroin in high school?
I'm not sure.
Like right after high schoolor probably late high school.
We just didn’t know that he was doing
but but definitely had the behavior
for I would say waswhen things got into harder drugs.
Okay. Yeah.
Including heroin. Yeah.
(16:29):
So and then I know that he went from
placeto place in terms of where he was living.
I'm sure he was on friends sofashe was, didn't have a car,
so he wasn't in his car.
And he went in and out of treatment.
Right. And correct.
Okay.
And that was on your insurance.
Yes. In fact,
(16:50):
he he basically figured out
how to use the insurance
to get rehabs to send airplane tickets.
So that was the beginning of him going
to literally all over the United States.
He would go into a rehab stay for a while.
Sometimes he’d complete it.
(17:11):
Other times he wouldn’t, he’d walk outand, and go back on the street into drugs,
and he would just go back and forthand really up until he was age 26, when
that's kind of
when the insurance companysays, we're no longer going to cover you.
And, and that that road, that of nice
(17:34):
rehabs ended and people pursuing him.
Yes. And so, so he had fit
they were about 15 rehabs
that he attended and,and then probably up to ten
at least detoxesor sober living situations.
(17:56):
In that window between 2014 and 2020.
Yes. And I'm sure each timethat he went in
you had something to do with helping himdo that.
I've, I've experienced that.
I know how much
emotional energy goes into thatand how much hopes you have,
(18:17):
but how much, in anxietyyou have thinking maybe it won't work.
And, there's a lot of work
with getting them in there and paperworkand all that kind of stuff.
So he, I think you said thathe also moved how many times
I recorded 127 moves
(18:39):
he has done from 2014 to today.
Yeah.
Talk about instability.
That is unbelievable.
So how did you go from that point
where and at what point did you reach outand try to get some help?
I believe attending your class,When Love Hurts
(19:00):
is the class that we attended together
and the class that really began to helpus, start taking care of ourselves
and, understandingaddiction, better understanding,
how manipulated we could become.
And, thatthat just lended us a lot of skills
(19:21):
and insights to begin to take
a little more control of our lives.
Yeah, I think you guys,I remember you guys working really hard
at the principles and applying them.
And that the way I title that it'sthe book is When Love Hurts.
And the class is Transforming DifficultRelationships just for people listening.
(19:42):
Not to be confused,but I remember talking to you about
letting go of the obsession andand how you could really relate to that.
And then I know that, detaching with love.
How did that help you?
Detaching with love was hard for me.
But I, I dealt with that
by, always assuring himwhen we had come in contact with him
(20:05):
of our love for him, and also assuring himthat I was praying for him
and that we wanted what was best for him.
But that I had to start,not taking any ownership of his choices,
not feeling responsible for his choices.
That was helpful for me.
What about you, Greg? well,
(20:26):
that was very helpful.
And it was helpful to methat Edie attended several classes,
actually, at it seemed to help her,so I participated as well.
And then a friend told mealso about Nar-Anon,
during that time period and, and,I said, Eddie, why don't we check this out
too, and,you wasn't real excited about it.
(20:49):
So I said, well, I'll just attend that.
And so I started going,I actually had a friend that I was meeting
with that was participating,and he said, I'll go with you.
And he said, I think I can help you.
And so I, we part startedparticipating there.
And I said Edie this I think will help us.
And, so then Edie started comingafter that
(21:11):
and, we continued to do that for
nine years and then and then
continued to come to your classesduring that time period as well.
And so we found, it was difficult
because there, there are,
this affectsa lot of different things in life, right?
(21:31):
Because, you, you
it's a never ending, but. Right.
It it's you, you you have church friends,you have different friends
that can tolerate, hearing the same storyover and over again because the story
doesn't end, just like everything,you say a few prayers
and, they turn aroundand and everything's fine.
(21:52):
It's it's it's a it's a struggle.
It's a long term, issue.
And, some people can handle welland some people
can't handle it.
Of friends and support system.
So we needed. Nar-Anon..
And it helped usbecause there were other people like us.
(22:12):
Yeah.
Or just like usthat that had gone through it.
And then we learned it, in your classes
as well as therapy that, it's there.
There's more than one addict.
We're addicted to the addict.
Yes. That's true.
That's a good way to say it. We are.
(22:33):
And, so, I mean, we we need thatfor our own health, and we recognize that.
Yeah.
Well, and and,when I talk about codependency,
because the way that we reactwhen we say we're addicted to the addict.
You know, could also be talked about,it's like co-addiction or codependency.
And when I talk about codependency,I will say that you can
(22:54):
you're codependent from childhoodor you can become
codependentin a dysfunctional relationship.
And that the example is you guys,
because you had a healthy home,you had a healthy relationship.
And then you had to deal all of a suddenwith extreme addiction.
And it literallythrew you into some codependent yes.
(23:18):
Behaviorsand caused problems in your relationship.
And it wasn'tbecause you didn't know boundaries
or you didn't know what a healthyrelationship was or how to communicate.
You just had this incrediblypainful problem
with somebodythat you loved dearly to deal with,
and you had to try to figure outhow do we handle this?
(23:40):
And that's why the 12 step programsfor families of addicts
and alcoholics are so helpful,because that's where you find out
how to apply the steps to yourselfto deal with somebody else's addiction.
Because without that,I think the, preamp of Al-Anon,
which is for familiesof alcoholics, Nar-Anon for families
(24:04):
with drug addiction, talksabout that without help.
It's too much for most of us.
we become irritable, angry, just we getwe're we feel angry.
We feel guilty.
We are, overcome with fear.
And we need those 12 steps to
go on that journeyof trying to figure out how
(24:26):
we can live when somebody that we love
is making a choicesto continue in an addiction.
And, the giventhe fact that your son was adopted,
I don't knowif you know anything about that.
My bio family is biological family.
Do you know, I all I, I had a lot ofthe records of, the birth mother was 18.
(24:52):
And had a from what I could tell,a healthy pregnancy, but but, I think
that, historically, there are drug, byher mother who was an addict.
Okay.
So she her mom, the bio mom was an addict.
Her mom's mom,the grandmother was an addict. Yes.
And she was actually sheshe was foster care at a young age.
(25:14):
Yeah. Okay.
But at the time of her pregnancy, duringher pregnancy, there was no drug use.
Yeah. No. Okay, so.
And then when you talk about ADHD,you talk about,
it's typical or common for people
with ADHDto have a lot of high risk behaviors.
(25:36):
So the incidence of drug useand even like the extreme of at 17
being in that programand stealing the van, I think you said
and driving all the way from like,was it Utah back to California
with two other people and with the van isit's a pretty high risk taking behavior.
(25:56):
I mean, that's pretty gutsy.
And not everyonewould be willing to do that.
But but the incidence ofbecause I haven't heard you guys
talk much about mental illness start,other than the ADHD really
didn't have severe depression anxietynot really been diagnosed bipolar or so.
It's really it's it's probably
(26:17):
highly likely, what with what we know now
about genetic addictive genes
that I knowthat's really strong in my family.
And, it's possible that that'swhere that drug addiction came from.
And, and it's we don't know that.
I'm not saying for sure,but part of that is helpful.
(26:39):
It's helpful because recognizing that
if you
have a genetic predispositionand you have risk taking behaviors
with ADHD, doesn't mean you excuse it,
but we can have compassion.
And it's not likehe was just out to ruin his life,
to ruin your lives,or because he was angry and resentful.
(27:01):
It's because he truly struggledwith addiction.
And about 50% of my
family, the family I grew up with
and also, grandparents and pair
my parents, my my dad was an alcoholic,
and about 50% of the offspring
(27:23):
within two generations is is
has genetic addiction issues.
It's really strong.
Wow. Really strong.
So I mean, it's it's possible thatthat that was had something to do with it.
So detachment really helps because youlet them deal with their own consequences.
(27:45):
But I think I remember sayingthat boundaries was always a struggle
for her to say no, and that she would handyou the phone Greg.
Yes. They you say it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'lljust add one thing back to boundaries.
I'll never forget in your class
(28:05):
when when you said
that Jesus had boundaries
and you explained how those boundarieswork, that was like,
very eye opening to me in terms of,
Jesus can set boundaries,we can set up rules,
or we should set boundaries,
(28:28):
be healthy.
Yeah.
So yes, I would be the one to say no.
if if there was somethingthat was unreasonable,
it many times it was
a judgment call.
Sometimes I would do the right thingand sometimes I wouldn't do the right,
depending upon the situation,
(28:50):
I, I will add, one areawhere I just really
was thankful for Greg, and appreciative
of his strength was,I would say literally a thousand times.
I'm sure our son would call
and say, right, can I just come home?
And, I need to come home.
(29:11):
Or if I come home, this and this,and he has all these reasons
why it's going to be okayand it's going to work.
Or he just neededthat to just the next step.
And Greg, I'm sure it was hard,
but he would get on the phoneand say, son, we love you.
We will always love you.
But that is not one of the options.
(29:33):
And that became almost like a phrase,I think, that you just had to repeat.
But we always assured himthat we loved him
and that we always would and,And he would say today
that he believes he is alive today
because of our our my faith,our faithful prayers.
(29:54):
He believes he would not be aliveotherwise
if it hadn'tbeen for our faithful prayers.
And we always kept in touch.
Yeah.
So did you get him for a cell phoneso that he could call you?
We did not keep hima cell phone. I don't think
he was on a cell phone.
I think he had a cell phonethroughout the time.
And he’d lose them, and,
(30:16):
that sort of thing, but. But.
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah, I know, I me too,
I, I, I'm rememberinga lot of what you guys have set up.
Right. You're doing a good job. Yes. Yeah.
I can't say I remember every detailabout my own life as much. But.
Yeah. So.
And just for the sake of people listening,
(30:38):
what is the reasonfor telling your child no.
When they call out in desperation,asking for money,
for foodor for a place to stay or whatever?
What?
Why would you, But why would you say no?
I would say no because, it was
it. It's
the type of thing where it it's it'senabling.
(31:01):
Really. Yes. Yes behavior.
It's kind of like, he would I'm sure,
use that money to buy drugs basically.
And we, we kind of put to a
other, send me this amount of money
and it was on a regular basisand it was always some reason. But,
(31:24):
when your eyes finally open up
and realize that, he'sjust using this for, for drugs and,
and we're supplying,which is a scary thought.
And and the other thing is,we recognize that
that we were making his life easier.
(31:45):
Basically, I've heard that term where
it's kind of like when, when they fall,you throw a mattress over them
so that they fall on the mattresswhen they really need all.
And we hit, hit their bottom.
Right.
So that they recognizethat it's their responsibility.
So we were we were,
(32:06):
it's a struggle between
setting boundaries and enabling back.
Yeah. No, that totally makes sense.
And and I know that,his journey was pretty severe going
that many different places,meaning he was moving around,
didn't have money, was went to rehabs.
(32:27):
And I know there were sober livingson top of that.
But he also had,
I think, a girlfriend right over overdosed
and a couple of friends overdosed,which is a a wake up call.
He had, fiancé actually, who,who passed away.
That was very traumatic for him.
And then later on, he had a girlfriendwho OD'd and passed away.
(32:52):
that was towardsthe end of his rehab story.
But his, his the greatest pointthat he really
hit his rock bottom was when
we said no to a rehab
that was, that that was costly
and said, you're left now to go towhatever the state will offer.
(33:16):
And he went to that programand that and that was for my dad.
That was after he had aged 26,
and he no longercould use the insurance company.
Right?
It wasn't there cash if we did it.
So anyway, the bottom line isit was after that
that he ended up done with the programand he ended up in a shelter.
(33:38):
And that shelter is where he had to
he had to serve do service in order tofor his food and his room and board
and that there was something
that was very humbling about that to him,and that was when he kind of
decided, enough of this, this,this is going nowhere.
And, and,and he had gone through his last formal
(33:59):
rehab had been a very, very good program.
Very.
And and,I have friends and myself included
who, when we have kids that are strugglingwith mental illness and,
addiction, that we've gone
back and forth and said,do we pay for the insurance?
Do we keep the insurance and, and,and that isn't necessarily
(34:24):
enabling just on the surface,
because sometimes there aren't programsthat they can get into.
I mean, the Salvation Army usually.
But, do they have beds? Dothey not have beds?
Also if they, get into a, medical crisisbecause of something, it's
kind of like the my, my friend and I say,
oh no, no, that's our insurance policy.
(34:47):
It's our insurance.
Which means thatif something happens to our kid
and there need a lot of medical care,
then we won't be facedwith that horrible decision of,
do we pay out of pocket for thatgood medical care or do we have insurance?
And we always say,if we can, if we can do it,
(35:09):
having the insuranceas long as we can is the cheaper option
for our own sanity,and also for the what ifs could happen
that we're not having to makethat really difficult decision.
And you don't know
if he would have done the same thingif you hadn't had your insurance,
(35:30):
if he would have goneto one of those programs earlier,
because addictionkind of has to run its course.
I mean, you're saying he went tothat program, but at the same time
he had lost multiple peoplethat were close to him.
Fiancé that is definitelycan make you hit a bottom,
especially when it's the second personthat you were close to that has heard of.
(35:52):
So it could have been just the convergenceof all of these things
that got him to the point where I'm at,I am done, I can't do this anymore.
Which means that he got clean.
Yes, yes, he gave up, the hard heroin.
And, I do believeit's about 5 or 6 years now.
(36:15):
It's his anniversary of that
significant change.
And he says he has no temptation, thatthat's not a temptation anymore at all.
He says, well, that's wonderful.
That's fantastic.
If that's the case,that's not an easy drug to get over.
So but that's that's a wonderful outcome.
(36:37):
And he is now what about fears of relapse?
What do I mean? He's saying he doesn't.
He is not tempted by that.
But there's got to be something in yourmind that's like.
Yeah. So
somebody who has
addictive personalities,may have a variety
of addictive issues that they faceand deal with in their life.
(36:57):
And so, it's not uncommon to, to move
from one to anotheror be vulnerable to that.
So, what we have doneis we just every single day
we pray for God's protectionand guidance in his life.
And his family's life.
And we acknowledgethat really, at this point, we really
I mean, it is up to himwhat kind of a life he wants to have.
(37:20):
And, well, and he's still dealing with,the ramifications of the years,
what I mean? What?
Once you give up addiction, thenyou have to kind of face your, your life.
So you see. Yes. Process through things.
So, so there, there, there,there's there's a lot of hope now though.
(37:42):
And for for him.
Yeah definitely.
Yeah.
You got to the, the addiction keeps youfrom having to face the pain
of whatever your pain of your life is.
And there could have been some painfrom the adoption.
There sometimes is but also
the pain of the choithe choices you've made
and the destructionthat's kind of come along the way.
(38:05):
Definitely doing that without using
some type of substanceis, is is difficult.
But, AA and and Narcotics Anonymous,they are wonderful programs
that that, rehab only gets you cleanand sober for a certain amount of time
and then you need supportfrom other people that are walking
(38:27):
the same journey with you.
So there's definitely a placefor him to get help if he needs that.
And then I think we were talking, Edie,and you had said,
I mean, he is married nowwith with family,
and he's currently he'smarried and has two kids and,
he has a great job and recentlypromoted and, and his wife is working
(38:49):
and, they, they're moving forwardand making progress.
And he has a wonderful personalitythat seems to, help them be serving him.
Well, yes. He is a hard worker.
That's somethingwe're really grateful for.
He's a very hardwhere has a strong work ethic.
some of the things that go along withthat, though, are the things the years
that you miss out on growingand your coping skills,
(39:13):
your conflict resolution skills,some of those kind of things.
if you have 6 or 8 years where
you're not focused on those those things,those are still things that can come up.
And he surprises or a challenge.
They say that an addictis as emotionally mature
as they were when they started using.
(39:35):
So if he started in junior high.
Then his maturity in in ways
is going to be backto that of somebody in junior high.
And you're right,all the problem solving, the frustration
tolerance, the abilityto handle your emotions, identify them,
all of that stuff is all somethingthat has to be learned.
(39:55):
But do you guys have natural detachmentfrom that now because he's in his own
home, his own family,
and you're not the first line of defenselike his his wife is the one
that needs to deal with,with whatever, struggles that they have.
And it's not that you don't care,but it's not, directly affecting you like
it was when he was calling youall the time for help.
(40:19):
So I know that, you learned
a lot during that time, and you
the boundaries especially, I remember
many times, you you did eventually learnboundary boundaries, Edie,
because I do rememberyou giving me examples of of times
that you were, you said you'dyou'd still fight within yourself,
(40:40):
but that you were able to say noand you were able to stand firm
and set some boundaries.
So, I, I did finally have that capacity,
but boy, that was the hardest thing for mefor sure.
Yeah, it well, I think it's hard for awhen when they pull your heart strings
and especially moms being, nurturing and,
it's it's difficult to say no and,and let them struggle.
(41:02):
But they don't they really don't growuntil they have to do it on their own.
But I know you talked a little bitabout your daughter
and that she felt neglectedwhile all of this was going on with him
because she was in high school,she was younger than him
and in high school also.
And, she had quite a bit of resentmenttowards him.
(41:22):
Right.That took a while for them to work out.
he felt not seen
because our resources emotional, physicaland financial at times,
were being consumed with, say,trying to save our son and that.
And that's not to fully neglect herby any means,
because I was very sensitive about thatalso for her needs.
(41:46):
But she had to hear and watch the conflictthat would happen in the home,
and then she would want to go to her roomand, feel like she's forced in there
by virtue of just feeling, protectingherself from the chaos at times.
And she was very troubledand hurt, by the pain
she saw that we experienced through this.
(42:10):
And so she definitely became
very resentful of her brother.
And, and really carriedthat for a very long time.
It was only about two years ago,or a year and a half ago,
that our son was in the areafor about a year,
and they had opportunityto to work through some of that.
(42:31):
And, and that was a beautiful,a beautiful opportunity,
where they actually started to have timetogether once a week to just hang out.
And, but for her, the jury's out
all the time.
She she's very protective still,
but she wants to have a closerelationship.
(42:52):
Closer than it is. Would make her happier.
Yeah.
And and you guysstill have an open relationship with him?
He calls him.
Absolutely. Yeah. He loves us dearly.
He is ever so thankful for how we'vestood there, through thick and thin.
we're planning,a summer vacation in June and
(43:13):
for two weeks when the baby arrived.
And so we're very much a part of,supporting their life.
Wonderful.
So what would you like to say to listenerswho have children using drugs
to give them hope,but also advice on how to respond?
really there's we we've talked about thisall along the way, but
(43:33):
but until the addict is ready to quit,
there's really not a whole lotthat you can do as a, as a parent
other than just walk the journey
and learnhow to deal with, your own issues,
and how to stay in your own lane,so to speak, through the process
(43:54):
of setting up boundariesand that sort of thing.
So it's very important to realize that,
that you really don'tyou can't control person
and tell them to stop usinguntil they're ready to do that.
I think the other thing is, is,
is get involved with support.
There's a lot of support out there,that we have access to.
(44:16):
Attend your classes, attend the Nar-Anonor Al-Anon or whatever.
is just the best fit.
I think also, prayer, our,
our faith was,I don't know how people do it without.
Yeah.
To be able to surviveand and know that God will work
all things out, for our good.
(44:36):
Yeah. That he cares about us and loves us.
And, I, I
think those are, those are several thingsI think
you may want to
mention that,I guess the last thing is that, as long as
as our children or loved one
or whoever we're talking aboutis, is is still alive,
(44:57):
there's there's hope, for themand, that that's critical.
We need to have hope. Yeah.
And I and I would add,there are a lot of slogans you learn, in
Nar-Anyon and when you're trying to growin your understanding of addiction
and difficult relationshipsand the three C's was really helpful.
I had to remind myself that often,which say that I didn't,
(45:20):
I didn't, I didn't cause it.
I can't control it and I can't cure it.
So I myself, Edie cannot doall those things for someone else.
Yeah.
I had to remind we had to remind ourselvesthat often, one day at a time.
I say that to my son,and he says, I hate that.
And I
but the truth is, I love it
(45:42):
because to me, I do believe with God'shelp, I can get through one day at a time.
And sometimes that's allI need to get through.
And so in that believe
that, God will give you what you needto get through at least one day.
Yes. letting go and let God that
that letting gowas probably the hardest thing for me.
And, and I feel like,it's taken this many years for me
(46:05):
to understand that bettersuch that now, I'm realizing that,
if I don't ask so many questions,I don't need to deal with
somebody else's issues.
So you don't want to knoweverything, right?
I don't need to know everything.
Then I don't have to worryabout everything.
And I'm no longer responsiblefor any of his world.
(46:28):
He's an adult now and so on.
It's not that I don't carebecause I care deeply, but,
we're separate people separate.
I'm learning that is actually healthy.
So allow your loved one
to take responsibility forfor how they live their life.
Yes. Absolutely healthyand absolutely necessary.
(46:51):
And if we do take responsibilityfor our children's lives,
they're not going to take responsibilityfor their own lives.
It's at some pointit's going to fall apart
and they're going to have to learnhow to do it.
So it's just a question of, like you said,when do we want to let go and let God?
And that's really, pivotal.
But I like the idea of leaving
(47:13):
peoplewith the thought that you said great,
which is as long as your lovedone is alive, there is still hope.
And I don't mean the hopefor every morning
you get up and you're anxious all daylong.
Thinking is today the day?
But because then that will get you backinto that constant panic and fear.
But just being ableto turn that person over to God
(47:36):
and saying God, I know you can do it.
I can't, I can't cure it,I can't cure it, I cannot control it.
But God, you take it.
And with God's help, with God's
help in that person's life, there is hope.
Yes, definitely.
Could I add, I mean, I justI think Greg said it, but,
(47:58):
this is not a journeyyou can do alone at all.
No. So I,
I just
highly encourage anybody that's in this,in this struggle
to make sure you find people
or organizations or resource sources
to, Karla's classes to participate in,because it's through that
(48:19):
that you can growand remember that you're ultimately
going to be responsiblefor what you do with your life.
I, I, I felt I faced that at one timewhen I realized God was going to
I was going to face my lifebefore God one day,
and he was going to say,what did you do with your life?
And and I thought, at the momentI would have to say,
I'm so wounded and I'm in so much pain.
(48:40):
I really didn't do a whole lot.
And that was a turning pointfor me to realize,
that I neededto pay attention to my life, even
while my son wasn't doing a very good jobof paying attention to his life.
Yeah, and being distracted.
Well, thank you both very muchfor sharing your story.
And in the 12 step program.
(49:01):
So we say your story of your experience,strength and hope
leading off with that,leaving off with that word hope so.
And your story,your son's story is hopeful as many times
as he moved as many yearswith the heavy drugs of heroin
and literally getting to the pointwhere he's now clean for so long
(49:22):
and in a family isis definitely a story of hope.
So thank you again for sharing it.
You're welcome.
So I'd like to thank you for listeningto this podcast on Change My Relationship.
And if you know somebody
that would benefit from this,please share this podcast with them
and I'll look forward to,being with you the next time.
(49:44):
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
(50:07):
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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