April 21, 2025 • 67 mins
Letitia Iona's first marriage was dysfunctional. When it was obvious that her children were negatively impacted, she knew she had to divorce. After moving to Tennessee to relocate as a single mom, she met her second husband and was excited about their new life together. Shortly after the honeymoon, he was angry, verbally abusive, and avoidant.
Letitia shares her journey through divorce, single motherhood, a verbally abusive marriage, and family relocation. Through each trial, she uncovered God's deeper purpose prompting her to write the book, "There Is Purpose In Your Pain." Letitia and Karla discuss what she discovered about the purpose of pain in her life and the interviews she did for the book. Join us and you will be thinking deeply about the purpose of your pain and thrilled to discover that it isn't hard to figure out.
Letitia Iona is a multifaceted professional singer, worship leader, elementary music school teacher, life coach, voice and piano instructor, and the author of “There is Purpose in Your Pain: Embracing Adversity and Finding God’s Purpose in the Midst of Life’s Challenges.” Her work aims to inspire and guide others toward Christ, offering hope and triumph amidst life’s challenges.
Letitia Iona is passionate about coaching, teaching, and supporting single mamas & women in difficult marriages. In 2021, she self-published an eBook “A Guidebook to Living a Wonder Woman Lifestyle: Written by a Single Mama for Single Mamas.” Following the sudden passing of a close friend, Letitia Iona was reminded that “life is short” and pursued her dream of relocating her family from California to Tennessee. She now resides in Clarksville with her daughter.
Letitia's book: There is Purpose in Your Pain: Embracing Adversity and Finding God’s Purpose in the Midst of Life’s Challenges https://www.amazon.com/There-Purpose-Your-Pain-Challenges/dp/B0DT9GW8RK
Letitia's Website: https://letitiaionastudios.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to a podcastby Change My Relationship,
featuring licensed marriageand family therapist and author
Karla Downing.
These podcast are designedto provide you
with practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today,Karla will be interviewing
a guest who has experienceda relationship problem
(00:22):
and successfullyworked through it.
Welcometo Change My Relationship
podcast I have with me today,my dear friend Letitia Iona.
And as you know,
my favorite thing to dois to interview
somebody who has gone throughsignificant relationship
(00:46):
adversity or a challenge,whichever way
you want to put it, and come outon the other end of it.
Not meaning thateverything is perfect,
but that she has risen above it,
managed to figure outhow to thrive within it.
And as we're going to be talkingabout today,
even foundGod's purpose in her pain.
(01:08):
And we are going to talk abouther new book called
There Is Purpose in Your PainEmbracing Adversity and Finding
God's Purpose in the Midstof Life's Challenges.
I absolutely love it,
and I think there's a lot for usto kind of
integrate into, helping,looking at the book and then
also looking at her situation.
(01:30):
But I would like to start withjust getting to know
you, Letitia,
and to
talk about your background
and maybe to get some
idea of like,
why and how did you cometo actually write about this?
But let's just talk about youfirst
as a little girl, which isusually where I like to start.
What was your childhoodlike and was there pain in it?
(01:52):
Wow. Well, thankyou Karla so much for having me.
I am absolutely delightedto be on your podcast.
Your ministry is phenomenaland has helped
so many people,so many women, including me.
So thank you. Yes.
So, growingup, I, was in a Christian home.
(02:13):
Both of my parents,we went to church
every Wednesdayand every Sunday.
I was heavily
involved in youth groupand trips and summer camp.
We lived on a cul-de-sac,and I had an older sister
and a younger sister,and I had tons of friends.
We rode bikesand went to the park
(02:34):
and went to the liquor storeand bought candy and gum
and all of those things.
And it was a very,wonderful childhood,
and relationship to pain.
There's two incidents that,come to mind, I had a father
who, has since passed away, buthe was, very quiet, very shy.
(02:57):
Worked really, really hard,for our family, which allowed
my mom to be at homeand raise me and my sisters.
But he was very distant.
he worked, the night shift,and he'd work all night,
and then he'd come homeand sleep all day,
and there wasn'ta whole lot of interaction
or spendingquality time together.
(03:22):
Which left
me feelingreally fearful of him.
He would take us on wonderfultrips in the summer time.
We would travel in the caracross country,
you know, we'd go to Texas, we’d
go to Georgia, Florida,all these wonderful things.
And looking back,he was there, but he wasn't.
(03:43):
He wasn't really there.
He was driving the carand checking us into the hotel
and eating at restaurants,
and he was there,but he wasn't really there.
And that was always somethingthat was really hard for me.
Another thing was,
I remember as a little girl,
I had, a friend who was alittle bit younger than me,
(04:07):
and we would play Barbiestogether,
and she lived in a single momhome.
She had two older brothersand sisters that were twins
who were really good friendswith my older sister.
And so I would go over thereand we would set up Barbies
and set up the house,I mean, for hours,
(04:30):
and then we would play Barbies,
and then we wouldgo outside to play.
And because she was a little bit
younger, some of my friendswere kind of like,
why are you hanging outwith her? You know?
And so at some pointshe would go inside
and she would tell her brotherthat I was being mean to her
and her brother,who was in high school,
(04:52):
who I assume was
probably the man of the houseand very protective of everyone.
He would come outsideand he would scream
and yell at me in front ofall my friends in the street.
And it was shocking.
It was scary.
I didn't understandwhy this big teenager
(05:12):
was talking to me this way,but I didn't say anything.
I didn't do anything.
I would just go homeand I would cry.
I wouldn't tell my parents,I wouldn't tell my sister.
I would just keep it to myself.
It was embarrassing.
It was sad.
I didn't understand it.
So the second time it happened,
(05:34):
I went home,I cried and my older
sister heard me crying.
And she was the kind of sisterwho didn't like it.
If somebody was messingwith somebody in her family,
even if you weren'ther favorite person.
I was not her favorite person.
But she was like,what are you crying about?
(05:57):
And I'm like, well, suchand such just screamed at me,
so come on, let's go.
So she treads on down the streetand she tells him off,
and I guess everythingwas square after that.
But as I was reflecting
on this question,I remembered that moment
because it really relatesto a lot of things
(06:17):
that have happened in my life.
Moving forward.
And so those were two thingsthat were very painful in my
life as a child.
So wheredid you meet your husband,
your first husband, andwhat was your courtship like?
I met my first husband
through a friend who I went tochurch high school with.
(06:38):
We were really dearfriends, even to this day.
And she knew of this guythat she thought
I would be interested in.
And so
during that season in our life,
we had graduatedfrom high school,
and we were going toour friend's weddings
and every wedding,she kept bringing up this guy
(07:01):
saying,
I think you guys would beso great together,
telling me all about him.
And so I don't thinkthere were cellphones back then.
So we emailed each other,for about a month.
We lived, I don't know,30 minutes from each other.
So we started emailingand corresponding.
(07:23):
I think we did talk on the phoneat some point,
and then eventually we metand we started dating.
Okay.
And then how long did youdate before you got married?
We dated for about two years.
Okay.So that's a good amount of time.
And then tell us aboutyour marriage.
Was there pain in your marriage,
(07:44):
and what are some of yourthoughts
and your feelingsthat you have about that
now that you're looking back?
I remember meetingyou during your marriage.
That's right.
A lot of pain in your marriage.
And you took my classesand even hosted
my class for women in difficultmarriages at your own church.
And, taught the materialyou didn't take my videos.
(08:06):
You actually taughtthe material. So you were.
That's right.
Yeah, I rememberspending a lot of time
talking with youabout what your struggles were.
So tell us about that.
Yeah.
The marriage was funand exciting.
It was new.
He was from another country,so that was really cool.
Getting to learn abouthis culture and experiencing
(08:27):
all the partiesand the birthdays.
But probably about 4 to 5 monthswithin the marriage,
I realizedthat there was something wrong.
Whenever there was a situation
of disagreementor even conflict, he
typically would just shut downand didn't want to deal with it.
(08:50):
And most of the timeit was me bringing it up.
Like, you know,
I really didn't like itwhen you did this
or you said thisor I don't really agree.
And I'm having these hurtfeelings and I'm thinking,
I'm going to come to my husbandand we're going to talk it out
and we're going to come to
some kind of compromiseor understanding.
(09:11):
But oftenhe would get very angry with me
for even telling him how I felt,
and then he woulddisagree with me, and then
he would just shut down.
And a lot of timesthat was him leaving the house
and going to work.
He was a mechanic.He owned his own mechanic shop.
(09:32):
And so he would just
leaveand go to work, and I'd be left
with all these feelingsof hurt and confusion.
And now I'm frustratedand not really sure
what to do with my feelings.
What what do I dowhen he comes home?
What do I dowhen the next thing happens?
So eventuallyit just kind of built up.
(09:55):
Yeah.
And then then there were alsosome financial issues,
I think, and some didn't dowe felt like he was passive
aggressive in the waythat he dealt with you,
and especially the kidsand your parenting of the kids
and not taking responsibilityin the home.
Yeah, he was he wasvery consistent with work.
(10:17):
But he was inconsistentwith his relationship with me
and the kids, even
with disciplining the children,it was very, very inconsistent,
which caused the kidsa lot of stress and they never
knew what to expect.
And then when he decided to,be a disciplinary,
it was very harshbecause of his culture.
(10:40):
It was very harsh.
So it caused a lot of issueswith the children emotionally.
Financially,because he had his own business.
He was always struggling.
And so he kind of just lefteverything for me to handle.
And, I would kind of carrythe weight while
I'm raising the two kidsand going to work.
(11:03):
And then aftersome time I'd be like,
I'm not doing this anymore.
You know, we need to sit downand talk about what you can do,
what you can contribute.
And just like the beginningof the marriage,
bringing up these things,setting boundaries was
really hard.
He would always pushagainst my boundaries.
He would ignore my boundaries,
or ridicule me for evenhaving them in the first place.
(11:25):
So it was very,it was very difficult.
Very hard.
At one point we were separated,
and it was during that
time that I sought help.
I've never been oneto just give up just like that.
And so, we're two kidsinto this marriage,
and I'm like, Lord,what am I going to do?
(11:47):
I need help.
And so,I would pray with my kids,
we would pray for daddy,we would pray for our lives.
And then I'd go into my roomand I’d get online, and I would
just start searching how,how to get help for my marriage.
And I remember I rememberfinding your website and.
(12:08):
Somewhere in there,
there was an articlethat that I was directed to.
And in that articleI read on a passive
aggressive person,and I felt like I was reading
my life in that article.
It was to a T.
I had never heard of passiveaggressive behavior,
(12:28):
any of those things.
And I was just like,oh my goodness.
And so I remember I emailed you,just to get therapy
and you said, I'mnot doing therapy anymore,
but I have these classes forwomen in difficult marriages.
And I thought, I'm a womanin a difficult it’s
(12:48):
like that'sexactly the right phrase.
And so I believe thatthat following week
I was at your classesdriving around Ontario
to Orange County,and I took those classes
for the next three yearsand absolutely changed
my life, changedmy marriage, changed my outlook.
(13:11):
I was actually able
to stay in my marriagebecause of your classes.
Well, yeah.
And and for peoplewho are listening
that don't know how far Ontariois to Orange County
with out traffic,it can be 40 minutes.
40 - 45 minutes but with trafficit can be a whole lot longer.
(13:31):
But traffic. So it does take,
dedicationand having a deep desire
to do that and commit to itfor three years,
especially with being
you were you take the kidswith you a lot of the time.
So, yes, it is
it it changed your marriage,
(13:54):
yet it still ended upin a divorce.
So what do you mean by that?
It changed my marriage in that
I was learningabout the behaviors that were
being played out in my marriage,that I didn't understand. And,
and then with the principlesthat you taught, it allowed me
to respond in a different way,
(14:16):
which gave me peace.
Prior to your class,I was the woman
who was trying to convince himwhat you're doing is not good.
What you're doingis going to end in divorce.
What you're doing is hurting me.It's hurting the children.
Like we have to figure out a wayto work through all of this.
(14:39):
And then with the passiveaggressive behavior, I was
it was getting to me.
I was respondingin a negative way.
So then when I learned theprinciples, all of that stopped.
And even though his behaviorcontinued,
I was able to find safetyin the principles
(15:00):
better understanding.
I was less frustrated.
I was respondinglike a godly wife instead of
just in anger and,being petty and tit for tat.
It just gave me so much peace.
And it actually,in many instances,
changed his behaviorbecause my behavior was changed.
So it was important to change meand not him.
(15:23):
Yeah.
Kind of like the you'rein a dance in a relationship.
If you take the same
step, you take the same stepevery time he takes a step,
you guys are completely stuck,but you take a different step
and you are like thisthan for him to even respond.
He's got to stepover here to where you are.
So it changes the dynamic.
(15:44):
And definitelywhen you feel like you're
the one that's decidinghow to respond and deciding
how to act,you have much more control
in a situationthat you can't control.
And that does give you peace,and it gives you confidence
and it gives you strength.
And sometimes it lessensthe dysfunction
(16:04):
and can even make itsomewhat workable,
even if it's not your ideal,so that like
I remember going to counseling
at our church at the timeand sitting down
with this pastorwho we had sat down with before.
And I remember my ex-husbandsaying,
(16:25):
yeah,things have really changed.
And then he said,I haven't changed anything
but somethingin this relationship,
this marriage has changed.
And I remember just sittingthere very quietly like,
that's that'sexactly that's exactly right.
It's interesting that he had
the willingness to admitI haven't changed anything.
(16:48):
I haven't changed at all.
But something's changed.
I don't know what it is.
So then how come that ended upin a divorce?
What?What actually happened? It.
Of course, because
he kept leaving
and it was causing mestress and pain.
(17:08):
And the childrenwere being so affected by it.
And, you know, I kept saying,you know, we got to get help.
You got to move back home.
We got to figure this out.
And of course, the same thing.
He didn't want to deal with it.
Obviously,he didn't have any problems.
And I finally decided, I can'tkeep doing this to myself.
(17:31):
I can't keep doing
this to my childrenwhen children don't, understand
what's going on with adults,
a lot of times they takethat out to be their fault.
Yeah.
And I remember asking them
after certain situationswhat they thought,
and they thought thatit was their fault.
And I just was like,if he's not going to get help.
(17:52):
And so I remember it was
I remember I was taking downthe Christmas tree
at the beginning of the year,
and I invited him overto have a conversation,
and it was the same response,
and I had decidedI was going to file, so I filed.
But then he wanted to reconcile.
So then we worked on
(18:13):
reconciling, but he continuedto pursue the divorce
behind my backwithout me knowing,
and eventuallythat's where we ended up.
Yeah. And then
when youwent through all of that,
do you remember at the time
were you looking for purposein the pain, and did you come
(18:34):
to any realization of whatthat purpose might have been?
Because it's hardafter you've spent
a lot of yearsin a dysfunctional marriage,
and then it ends and then,you know,
your children have been affectedand you look back up usually
and you think, oh my gosh,I wasted all these years.
Why didn't I leave earlier?
How did you how did you grapplewith all that?
(18:57):
I don't know if I looked
for God's purposein that marriage.
I don't know if that's wheremy mindset was at the time.
I know in painthroughout my life.
What it doesis draw me closer to God.
(19:17):
Going to your classeswas a big part of that.
Seeing Godin the midst of the pain
that might have beenthe purpose.
That was the purpose.
I don't knowif I recognized that then,
but when you're goingthrough difficulty
in, you know, the most importantrelationship in your life,
(19:38):
you have to look to God.
You have to look to him to giveyou the strength to carry on,
especially raising two kidsat the same time
and trying to do your life.
I remember at that time I was
directing, the AP gospel Choir,
and you can imagine how many,
(20:00):
mornings or night beforeI had a huge concert
that his behavior would switch
in such a way that would causesuch stress in our marriage.
It was like the enemy knewthat I was about to minister
with these young people, and,everything would just be flipped
upside down.
(20:20):
I would be crawling to get towork, to direct these children.
And it was only the strengthof God that carried me
through those concertsand through those moments.
So that
that those moments of pain
caused me to be more dependent
on the Holy Spirit,on my heavenly Father,
(20:43):
to carry me when I didn't haveanything else to give.
Yeah, I,I can relate to that too.
In the lowest, lowest moments
when God is the closestand it isn't because he's not.
He's any closerto us than necessarily.
We are open to his presenceand his love and his care
(21:05):
because we get desperate,unfortunately, because then
that istypical for a lot of us, that
just like the Israelites,things go good and they're like,
we don't need God,and they go bad.
And they're like, what do you dowhen you're abandoning us?
He's like,we forget him all the time.
Yep. Yeah.
(21:25):
We forget all the time. Exactly.
It's kind of part of ourunfortunately, our human nature.
So now I knowyou made some major moves
after that divorce.
And what were those
I did, I decided,
to move out of state.
(21:48):
I had a desire
to move to Tennessee for many,many years.
I remember many years
asking him to move and he justthought that that was crazy.
And it it is, and it was,but it was,
deep desire of mine, going frombeing married to a single mom,
(22:08):
just struggling in lifefinancially, going through 2020,
which really affected,my son, my children.
I wasjust ready for a fresh start.
And I really didn't knowit was going to be in 2021.
I thought it would bemaybe some years later.
(22:28):
But God really opened the doorfor me to move.
I really sought himin that decision.
And October 1st,
2021, we arrived in Tennessee.
Me and my children and our car.
Yeah and it,.
I everybody I know that'smoved to Tennessee loves it.
(22:53):
But I knowit's a big transition.
So you met your second husband.
It did.
How did that happen.
And what was that marriage like?
So what were you expectationsfor that marriage?
Let's askwhat were my expectations?
So, I met my second husbandonline, and, I was really just
(23:14):
looking for someoneto show me around Nashville,
and it turned into a full blownrelationship.
We had tons of fun.
There were so many things that,we did together in our dating
that he had never donebefore in Nashville.
So there were tons of firsts.
(23:35):
wonderful new experiences,traveling to Gatlinburg.
Never been there before.
Going to all different places,meeting his family.
Tons of restaurants.
Just so much fun.
But in that marriage, my husbandwas verbally abusive to me.
(23:59):
And a lot of it
started after we got married.
At the time when we met, meand my kids were
living in our home.
And then after we got married,I let my home go, and
I moved into his home.
And there
were these very strange
(24:22):
episodes that I would call themthat came out of nowhere.
It would be, afterhe came home from work and,
he's kind of isolating.
I don't understand why.
We've just hada wonderful weekend together.
And, I would go into the roomto ask him, hey, what's
(24:43):
what's going on?
It feels like you're isolating.
You're pulling away.
And however I said itor whatever he was feeling in
that moment could trigger himjust like that.
And the next thing you know,I'm being called
all kinds of names,being insulted
for how I look at my bodyand what I do for a living
(25:07):
and being a mother,I mean, just full blown,
raging and,
in the beginning,I was kind of like,
well, what he's sayingdoesn't make any sense.
It's not true.
I know who I am as a woman.
I know who I amas a child of God.
(25:28):
I know who I am as a mother.
So we'll just keep pressing on
and hopefully he'll figure out
that I am who I say I am.
Hopefullyhe'll figure out that I love him
and I care about him.
But there was a lot of mistrust.
There was a lot of anxiety.
(25:50):
There was a lot of stress.
There was a lot of disbeliefand disillusion.
And it just it was awful.
And because of his personality,
he'd come out of these episodes
and he turned into the guythat I fell in love with.
(26:12):
And so we begin this circle,
the cycle of ups and,
and very, very highsand then very, very deep lows.
And he would love on meand my daughter,
and he would be very generousand kind to us all
so that we would, eventuallylet him back in and forgive him.
(26:35):
He would apologize.
We'd have these,
theological spirits or momentswhere he could recognize
that he was wrong and that,what he was doing was not okay.
But things never really changed.
The cycles just continued,and I kept forgiving him.
And I kept tolerating, until his
(26:58):
dramatic,anxiety and fears turned into,
I'm going to get rid of you,and I'm going to divorce you.
And so seven months into ourmarriage, he filed for divorce.
Yeah.
And that's so
hurtful.I mean, it doesn't matter
if the problemsare there or not.
(27:19):
Or you could even bethinking about.
Maybe I need to leave someone.
But when somebody that you love
decidesthey're going to divorce you,
that that's a really additionaldeep level of pain.
So, so, so, so hurtful.
So. Yeah.
Well, it's so bad for you.
(27:40):
It was extremely devastating.
In fact, it was the weekof Valentine's and
the following day
we were planning to spendthe entire day together.
I had taken the day off of work.
He was off of work.
We had all these plansof what we were going to do.
(28:01):
I've come home from work.
I'm, deciding what I'm goingto wear the next day.
I'm cooking food for himand my daughter,
and this man comes and knockson the door and hands me divorce
papers without telling youthat that's coming.
Just like a shock.
I know another womanthat that happened to,
and I just like I was justhe was in the house
(28:22):
actually this guy at the timethat they delivered that.
And I was just I've got toI couldn't even believe that.
I'm like, what?
You are in a
marriage with somebodyyou don't like leave.
Everything'ssupposedly going okay.
And then you just knock on
the door and have divorce papersdelivered.
The shock is beyondbelief to me.
(28:44):
I'm so sorry. Trauma.
It is traumathat they're inflicting.
And it was never really,
if you asked him today,does he want a divorce?
He'll say, no,I don't want a divorce,
but I don't want to livelike this.
And and these overwhelmingfeelings of anxiety and fear,
that's what over took him.
(29:07):
That caused him to actin this way.
That caused him to believe.
I've got to get awayfrom this woman,
and you know in your heartthat you
your behaviorwas not causing him that pain.
It was his internal struggleswithin himself
(29:27):
and his perceptionsand interpretations
and his old woundsthat he was struggling with.
And we know that when a personcannot
bear to facethe truth about themselves
and see the truthabout themselves,
that they put up a facadeon the outside,
(29:48):
they have like a fake imagethat they show,
but at the same timethey project that pain
and those inadequaciesand the cause of their pain
onto someone else,so that they do not have to
look at themselves and say,oh man, I'm messed up.
I got this wargoing on inside of me.
(30:09):
Oh yeah, I've
got all these crazy feelings,
and I'm really strugglingwith my own self-perception.
And it isn't her.
It's the stuff inside me.
If they can't dothat, it's got to go outward.
And that's what causesa lot of that behavior.
And and had you not gone througheverything
you had gone through before,
you might have said,oh, I'm just going to stay.
(30:31):
I'm going to forgive him. I'mgoing to keep doing this.
But you knew the traumathat was causing
you and howthat was not good for you.
And so you refused.
He asked youto come back, right?
And you refused multiple,multiple times.
I mean, within the marriage,it would be
(30:52):
it was always, forgive me.
You have to forgive me.
I'm I'm I'm sorry.
it was this
or it was that which generallyhe would make it my fault.
But he always wanted meto forgive him right away.
And I couldn't.
I couldn't because I would tryto explain to him
(31:14):
that the things that you said,
it's like you shot me for.
I'm wounded. I'm.
I'm bleeding out right now.
Like it's not going to happenright away.
And over time, I was ableto bounce back faster.
But it was justkind of a learned behavior.
I was able to just move onback to the good times,
(31:38):
knowing that everythinghe was saying wasn't true.
But it was painful.
It was extremely painful and
there was so much frustrationand confusion.
Nothing made sense.
One of the things that I didto help me through
those times is to startjournaling and writing down
(32:00):
the things that were beingsaid, because when you hear
negative, awful things like that
so often, you can startbecoming a little crazy.
You start thinking, well,
maybe I am that way, or maybethat is why I did what I did.
Or maybe that is how I feel.
(32:21):
And it was very therapeuticand helpful to me to write out
and see what was being said, tolook at it and say,
that is not true.That is not who I am.
That is not what I was feelinganyways.
How can you tell a personhow they are feeling anyways?
That's okay.
(32:41):
I am me and you are you.
We are different people.
You can't tell me what I wasthinking or how I was feeling.
So it was very helpfulto write those things out.
So let's get back
now to writing this book.
The where did the idea comefrom?
What?
(33:02):
I mean, how did all thatcome about?
Well, for years
I had been thinking,
I really want to write a book.
I had just had so many reallyhard and painful experiences,
but such beautifulthings came out of all of them.
(33:23):
And the season of lifethat I was
in, I there was an opennessin my heart and mind.
Even asidefrom the difficulties in my
my marriage, there was spacein my life that I thought
this would be a wonderful timeto start writing this book.
And as you, were readingthe title,
(33:45):
it's about finding God'spurpose in the midst
and I had developed
such a way of life to get methrough my difficult marriage.
I thought,there's probably tons of people
who are going throughdifficult things right now,
and you don't always lookfor the purpose.
(34:07):
You don't want to lookfor other purpose.
You just want whatever it isto be done and over with,
and you just want to get through
and get to the other sideas quick as you can.
And I just learned that
if you look at your painin a certain way,
if you look for God's purposeand what you're going through,
(34:28):
you can see such beautifuland wonderful things.
And so I sat down in the midstof all of this pain,
and I started writingthis book as a love letter,
to people who,
if they are in any kind of pain,
this is how you can find God'spurpose in the midst of it.
(34:50):
And and I really like itbecause it is
it feels like that.
It feels like you're saying,here's some balm in the midst
of, you know, some healing balmin the midst of your pain,
that it's practical.
You interviewed people,lots of people, including myself
and for the book to get,
(35:11):
you know, examples of painthat they've gone through
and things that they've learnedand perspective.
So I love that partwith their stories
woveninto yours, your information.
But you also have likepractical steps
and things you can doin the midst of pain.
Things you can ask yourself,goals you can set.
(35:31):
it's so it's very it's like it'sgot like breaking it down,
which I don't know that
I've ever read a bookthat actually breaks it down
with pride.
And, you know,I love practical. Yeah.
So I love practical stuffbased on biblical truth,
but like, what can I do?
You know, in the midst of thatpain, it's it's a crisis.
You know,you're you're needing something
(35:53):
and you needing somethingpractical today.
And it can't be real ethereal.
It has to be very,
very like material and presentand something that.
So I love it.
So, whatwhat are some of the purposes
that people told youabout in their pain?
What are some of the thingsthey brought up?
A lot of them, which
(36:17):
while I was interviewing and
writing the book,I wasn't at that place yet.
I'm at that place now.
But I wasn't at this place.
But a lot of them saidthey were so grateful
and thankful to Godfor what they had gone through,
and they would go through itall over again.
And this is, difficultmarriages.
(36:40):
Husbandscheating on their wives, women,
losing, having a stillbirth.
Just all kinds of thingsthat I learned from the people
that I interviewed.
Time and time again,
they said I would go through
this all over againto find the purpose
that I found in my pain.
(37:00):
And that was just like, wow.
That is wow.
Especially when you saysomething like a stillbirth.
Like, I would go throughall of that again.
It's like, wow, that is hardto imagine being able to say.
But on the other side of it,
that sometimes you do havea different perspective,
(37:22):
but a lot of it, you're talkingabout
getting a different perspectiveeven in the midst of your pain,
which is really,really hard to do.
So, what were
what are some of those practicalthings that you tell people
to do?
One of the things that I talk
about a lot in the bookand what I would connect to,
(37:42):
why so many of the peoplethat I interviewed said
they would do it all over again
is because they sharedtheir pain.
A lot of times when you're
in a really dark place,whether it's
an illness or loss,you don't want to talk about it.
You don't want people to knowwhat you are going through.
(38:04):
Maybe you're ashamed.
Maybe you haven'tfigured out the reason why.
But because the people
that I interviewed were gratefuland had found purpose,
it was because it was
helping other people,because they open up their mouth
and they shared it,which was just my
(38:26):
overall purpose in this book.
I wanted peopleto be able to relate.
I want it to be able to relateto other people,
to let them knowyou are not alone.
It doesn't matter how difficultit is, you are not alone.
Not only is God with you,but when you open it up and you
(38:46):
share that story, a lot of timespeople can comfort you.
You don't have to carry the loadby yourself.
I don't know how many timesI've called my best friend
with whateverwas going on in my life,
and sometimes her perspectiveis something that I didn't see
or I didn't recognize,and it gives me
a better perspectiveon what I'm going through.
(39:10):
So it's really important,even if it's just talking
to God, crying out to God,God, I'm in pain.
This is what I'm going through.
Please help meopen up your mouth and share
whatever it isthat you're going into.
You don't know
how you can change other people,including yourself,
because you open upand you share.
(39:33):
Yeah, I agree in 1 Corinthians1:2-4 talks
about comforting each otherwith the comfort
that we've receivedpersonally from the Holy Spirit,
which gives other peoplea chance to comfort you
when you'rein the midst of that pain
which fulfills their purpose.
And it also gives youthat comfort.
(39:55):
And sometimes you end up
comforting someonein the midst of your pain
who also has pain just bythe things that you share.
And the other thing is,we have this
unfortunatelystill in the church.
It's a little betterin some churches, but not better
in other churches.And that's that.
We've got to have a facadewhere we are praising Jesus
(40:20):
and rising above it,and we're willing to suffer,
and we're in it for the longhaul.
And it's for,doing all this stuff.
And that meanswe have to be tough
and we got to smile,and we got to pretend that
everything's okay.
And it's so not true.
We do not have to do that.
(40:42):
And I always think about this
scripture in 1 Corinthians,the one I just talked about.
Wait a minute.
If we're not supposedto share our pain
and share our hurt and sharewhen we're down,
how would we have been comfortedby the Holy Spirit
in the first place to wherewe could now go, comfort others?
(41:04):
And if they weren't
supposed to tell uswhat they were going through,
how would we knowto comfort them?
So this is just anotherone of those weird like ideas
that we have in the churchwhere that are
just not realistic,not scriptural.
Like, yes,we are supposed to be real.
We are supposed to beareach other's burdens.
(41:25):
Yes, we are supposedto reach carefully.
Not everyone understands
some of the thingswe're going through,
especially when it's likedysfunction
in relationships, right?
Families and marriages.
You got to share with somebodywho is not going
to give you one of thosepat answers.
make your husband loveyour wife.
just keep having sexor whatever.
(41:45):
we don't want we don't wantto talk to those people.
That causes more pain.
But, we are supposed to shareabsolutely
100% and lift each other up and,
and be very openwith what's going on with us.
And it's okay not to smile.
It's okay to be broken.
It's okay to be confused.
(42:06):
It's okay to need help, Yeah,absolutely.
And then,are there any other things about
their testimoniesthat people brought up that
you could remember that reallykind of struck you as profound?
I mean, that wasthat was the biggest one.
I mean,because they were sitting down
(42:29):
and interviewing with me,that was that was their sharing
and that always connectedto their purpose.
One particular lady, Brittany,
she, you'll read in the book
she tells her storyof how she had two stillbirths
(42:49):
and actuallyshe had one stillbirth.
And the second onedidn't live very long.
And she rememberedhow her sister was like,
let God use you.
And she's thinking,
how is anyone getting usedto me?
I'm so broken right now.
(43:10):
How is God going to use me?
And she kept thatwhen she had her
second childand the girl passed away,
she kept telling herself thatand as a result,
she was ableto find such incredible healing.
And then she startedsharing her story on Facebook,
(43:33):
and peoplestarted reaching out to her,
and she was able
to share her story with themand encourage them.
And till she had thisministry, in fact,
the way I found out about her isI was at the dentist,
the dentist,my dentist at the time asked me,
you know,what are your plans after this?
(43:54):
I said, I'm in the processof writing a book.
Oh, well, what's the title?
There's purpose in your pain.
Do you know what my friendjust posted?
Something about pain.She went through all this?
She went through a stillbirth.
I think she, too, wouldtotally relate to your story.
And I'm like,
can I have her information?
I reached out to her,and that's how I met her.
(44:17):
And so what a profound ministry
to go from these two,passings of her children
to ministering on Facebookto meaning me.
And now she's featuredin my book Talk About Purpose.
That's just going onand on and on.
(44:38):
But if she had stayed quiet,if she had not tried
to find God's purposein her pain,
I don't know where.
Yeah.
And it doesn'teven have to be a ministry,
because sometimes, I mean,
a lot of people aren'tgoing to have a ministry
like in the classic senseof a ministry.
(45:01):
But a ministry can be talkingto one person,
sharing with your neighbor, or,it can be
just literally having comfortto give to someone
who does happen to talk to you
and havinga different perspective
and so it doesn't have tobe a big ministry that's on,
(45:26):
doesn’thave to be a big ministry.
It doesn't have to be a book.
It doesn’t have to be,you know, a post on Facebook.
It could just be talkingto your heavenly father
and even just the waythat it changes us,
but I don't
I knowyou and I had this conversation,
and I won't give it all away
because you put some of itin the book, but
I don't think that God gives us
(45:47):
pain on purpose to teach us,
like not God bringing the painlike I'm going to make.
I'm going to havetwo babies die.
One, one and one, you know,just a few days later weeks.
Just because I want to teach yousome things, right, I don't.
(46:08):
Our Heavenly Father loves us.
He promises us every goodand perfect
gift comes from us, right?
And I just don't thinkGod's like going.
I'm going to
give her this diseaseI'm going to give her MS,
with a bunch
of other things with it sothat she can learn to trust me.
Life happens, right?
(46:29):
And I think God useswhat happens to us
as part of his design and partof his purpose with right.
And he promisesto bring good out of it.
But heI don't think he brings it.
And, I'm going to
read something out of thisthat I really liked.
It says if you land on the painand just acknowledge it, but
(46:52):
you don't find a way to use it,that becomes your end.
Just pain, no real purposeand nothing comes from it.
Says thepain is wasted on tears,
disappointment, frustration,anger, and often more pain.
You have to ask the question,why am I facing this pain?
You must look for the reasonwhy you are going through this.
And yes,some pain may seem surface
(47:15):
senseless, but God's purposecan still emerge from it.
What God might be showing youor teaching you that's question.
What might God be showing youor teaching you?
These questions will allow youto take your eyes off
your pain, off yourself, and offhow you thought it should be.
In doing so, you will beginto see the purpose.
(47:36):
And I love that that's andand you might not be able
to do that fully in the midstof the heart wrenching pain
or the the short denial stage
of a diagnosis, or a tragedyhappening in your life.
But as you move through itand you move through
the grief stages
and you'regetting to that place,
(47:57):
those are some of the thingsthat can begin.
You can begin to askand yeah, purpose.
We're, we're we're designedto want purpose, to want
significance, towant to find a reason for thing.
We may never knowthe actual why.
You know why.
(48:18):
Remember the movie The Shackwhere he was like, why?
Why did my daughter die?
And I never really got the why,
but there wasn't really a why,except that
the world is a place
where bad things happenbecause some people are sinful,
But but the outcome ofthat was his opening up
(48:41):
his heart to the loveof his Heavenly Father. You,
you know, in, thinking back
through my difficult marriages,there was pain there.
There was pain that wasn't
acknowledged.
There was painthat wasn't fully recognize.
(49:03):
And, pain
if you are in pain, hurtpeople, hurt people.
That's what was trying to say.
And so, a lot of whatI experience in my marriages
really helped me in this bookto really help people see,
like you just read,don't sit on that pain.
(49:26):
Don't don't carry that pain
to every area of your lifefor the rest of your life.
It if you just land there,you're going to remain in pain.
And in most cases you're goingto cause pain to other people.
And so, like you just read,it's really important to,
(49:48):
to find something in it,
to deal with it, to grieve,
not to justpass it off as something that
you don't want to acknowledge,you don't want to deal with.
It's really importantto feel all of it.
And then you talkabout practical ways
to take care of yourself.
And and I love thatbecause it is
(50:11):
when you're in the midst
of really a lot of pain,it is like a crisis.
And therapists are taught to
have what's calledcrisis counseling,
which is when you crisiscounselor,
you give people information
that they need
to manage the crisis,and then you give them
some practical thingsto implement right away.
(50:34):
And I look at that,and when I read your book,
I was like,oh, this reminds me of that.
It's like in the midst of it,
like right away,here's some here's what you need
to manage this crisisin the midst of the crisis.
And yes, your perceptionand your come, your realization
of what your purpose is
(50:54):
does become enlargedand clearer over time.
Just knowing that even thoughGod does it
necessarilybring this into your life,
that he can use thisand bring purpose
out of itis a very comforting thing.
(51:15):
Yeah.
I'm a elementary music teacher,
and so it was importantfor me to,
do the practical thingsthat I talk about in the book
to help meto get up every morning
and goand love on these children.
(51:37):
I didn't want the painthat I was going through at home
to carry overinto my teaching these children.
So it was really importantfor me to stay in the word.
It was really important for meto, continue to pray
for myself and my husbandand my marriage and my family.
(52:00):
It was important for meto exercise in the morning
to make sure that I was puttinghealthy things in my body
so that my body can maintainwhen I was going
through the most stressful partsof my marriage.
So that I couldstill be the best music teacher
as well as the bestmom, during those times.
(52:22):
So yeah, that was some of the, practical things that I
put in the book that I thinkare really important to
to carry you through.
When you're in the midst of it,you must take care
of your body, heart,mind, soul, everything.
Yeah, totally.
Now you are in the process.
(52:44):
Divorcing your second husband.
You're living in your.
You moved recently to your ownplace with when your daughter.
I know this is,
some low points
as, So you're very aware, again,of being in grief
and pain overthe loss of the second marriage.
(53:07):
How are you processing thisin light of having
just written this book?
And now, here'sthe book, written this book,
and now you are back,right in the thick of it.
What are you what are some ofthe thoughts that you have?
Well, so, you know,he filed seven months in
and then last July,he withdrew it and
(53:30):
we were havinglike some new wonderful
things happen into the marriage.
And there was a lot of honestyand communication.
And we were setting goals.
I mean, for a good 2to 3 months, it was phenomenal.
And then right before I finishedthe book,
he filed to be filed again.
(53:50):
And so it wasreally, I'm like, okay, God,
I thoughtthat you I got it, I got it.
He's like,no, no, no, there's more.
There's.
And even during that time,I had a lot of weird accidents,
like cutting my handopen and my foot,
and it was all kinds of weirdthings
(54:11):
that I know just came fromthe stress of the situation.
But even during all of that,and up until now,
I go backto the principles of the book.
I mean, many timesI have to pick up the book
and read one of those chaptersto remind me
that God is doing something,
and I may not understand itright now.
(54:34):
I may not see it right now,but I'm going to continue
to chaseafter Christ and everything,
because he has sustained meall these years.
He has sustained me.
I remember just three weeks ago,as I'm packing up my house,
there were very dark, deep,
(54:54):
lonely moments in that time,and it didn't matter
who I calledand talked to or text,
they didn't understand whatI was feeling in that moment.
But God would whisper and say,I'm right here.
I've always been right here.
I am right here with you.
As you are packing these boxesand getting this stuff together.
(55:17):
I am right here with you.
You are not alone.
And that's huge.
To knowthat and to hang on to that.
And it's absolutely true.
And even if we don't have whatamounts to a whisper in our ear
from God telling us,
(55:37):
I'm righthere, you're not alone.
That is the truth.
No matter whatyou're going through, no matter
how distant you feel, no matterGod is right there with you.
You are not aloneand that is something
that we can hang onto regardless of what we feel
and what we think.It is a truth.
(55:59):
Absolute truth.
So leave the listenerswith something that
they can hang on to right nowif they're in the midst of pain
and can feeling that confusionand that just that,
that pain that they don't know
(56:19):
what to do with leaving themwith some couple of thoughts.
Well, one thing I
learned during this shortcouple of months,
even when you share
and even when you ask for help,
(56:40):
people may not always be able
to be there for youthe way you may need them to,
or you think that they should,sometimes when you're
going through something hard,it can be triggering to
another person who may have gonethrough that as well.
And I would
(57:00):
say, don't let that deter you
from still sharingwhat you're going through.
It's very easy to isolatewhen you're in pain.
It's very easy to be, I just gotto figure this out on my own.
I don't want anybody to knowwhat's going on,
but that is notwhat God wants us to do.
(57:24):
Not only doeshe want us to come to him,
but we are to be strengthfor one another
in the body of Christ.
And so I really learned that
even though I was askingfor help and needing
help, not everybodywas going to be able to help me.
But that's okay.
(57:45):
If anything, that just drew mecloser to the Lord.
I wouldalso say, stay in the word.
Stay in the word.
Right nowI am reading through the Bible,
through the Bible recap and,doing the Bible study
that goes along with it, as wellas watching the videos and
(58:09):
guys the stories in the Bible,
they're the same thingsthat are happening today.
It's the same thing.
And so reading,like we were talking
about the children of Israel,I'm in Deuteronomy right now.
They they're constantlyforgetting what God has done.
They're constantly being drawnaway by other people,
(58:31):
groups and idolsand so many different things.
And it's wonderful to readhow gracious God is to them
and how he wants to bein the midst of them.
He wants to be close to them.
He wants to forgive them,and he wants to raise them up
to be the people thathe has called them to be. So
(58:54):
and then just going back to,
those practical, everyday thingsof taking care of yourself,
you have to takecare of yourself.
You have to take careof your body so that you can
continue to be the very bestthat you can be in life.
You don't get to lay downand die.
(59:16):
You don't get to just check outfor a year or, or six months.
You still have to get upand keep going and in order
to have that tenacityand that resilience,
it really comes frombeing spiritually minded,
connected with Christ, connectedin your relationship
(59:38):
with God, connectedin your word.
I don't know how many timesI have read something in
my quiet time
that I'm sure I've read before,but it hits differently, right?
And Godwill specifically put scripture
and storyright before you that fits
whatever it isthat you're going through,
(59:59):
so you can get understandingand direction.
So taking care of yourselfspiritually, physically.
I'm in therapyevery single week.
I need that to keep going.
I have a nutritionist in my life
who is helping me with the foodsthat I need
to get me through this difficulttime.
(01:00:19):
As well as friends and familythat I can talk to.
All those thingsdon't don't shut down, don't
isolate, don't, just landand stay in that pain.
You have to keep going.
You have to keep going.
Yeah, I would agree.
The only thingI would say about Scripture
sometimes I knowfrom my own self, in the midst
(01:00:41):
of really confusing timesor really painful times,
if you're desperatefor a word from God
and if you take every singlething you're reading for a word
as a word from God,it can become very confusing.
So if you're at that place,be careful that you don't take
every single scripture
(01:01:02):
because one could tell youone thing,
and then the next Scripturetells you another,
or you or everything you hear,like on a radio station,
you know, women
that are makingtrying to make a decision,
should I stay in my marriageor not?
They'll hear one program
and it'll talk aboutstaying with your marriage.
And then a little bit laterthey hear a program and talks
aboutsomebody, talks about their
(01:01:23):
their divorce.
And it's like, what?
Which way am I going?What's God telling me?
You got to makeyour own decisions.
You gotta use your sound mindthat God has given you
with the abilityto make decisions.
So, you know,if you are confused.
What I did at those timesis definitely turn to the word.
But it might be Proverbswhich are just practical truths,
(01:01:46):
but not necessarily guarantee
they're they're,you know, practical ideas.
And rather than a promiseand Psalms where David is
and the Israelitesjust pouring out their hearts
through their pain. Yeah.
And so you can relate to justbeing real and, and knowing that
that's that they're that lamentto God is heard.
(01:02:11):
And then the other is justpraise.
Music is just being ableto be carried above
the circumstancesby just listening to praise.
It always lifts you
above your circumstancesand brings you closer to the
presence of God.
So but that is all intentional.
Taking care of yourself.
(01:02:31):
It is.
It is not just laying downlike you said
and passively like saying,I can't handle this.
It's how can I make it throughthis?
I can do these thingsthat will help me and lift me.
I'm one of those is reaching outto other people.
And you're right,
you are a you are responsiblefor letting people know
(01:02:56):
that you need something,but they don't have to say yes.
They might not be able tobecause of their own
circumstances, limitations,whatever.
That doesn't take don't takethat personally.
Recognize, okay.
That's they can't do that.
Then you ask somebody else.
But you dohave to be intentional. So.
(01:03:17):
Well, this interview,
at least to me, feels likeit was as good as I anticipated
because I got a lot of stuffto talk to.
And you are very upliftingand just
so beautiful in your countenanceand in your spirit.
And I am convincedthat God is going to use you
(01:03:41):
for bigger things that are goingto be even more so.
You the purpose of your pain.
And many, many are goingto be blessed through it.
And I'm so excitedthat I can say I knew her.
She opened.
But thank you so, so, so much.
(01:04:01):
You're welcome.
Me so much.
It's just been wonderful to evenknow you on this side of life.
And Karla's in the book two.
Karla is a book.
She gave me a
phenomenal interviewdriving in the car to Arizona.
And it's there is wonderful
perspective in the book,so I hope you check it out.
(01:04:24):
It's on Amazon. Yeah, I do it.
It's really good.
I think it's one that is,
you know,
some of the things
that I've read about,the reason I liked it
so much
is some of the things
that I've read about purposeand your pain.
There'sso high and mighty spiritual
that I don't really know howto implement them in my life.
I don't really know how to
(01:04:44):
take them down and say,other than to,
say all the right things,all the right spiritual things.
And, I just don't relate to themand how to do that.
I relate to this,which is the practical
stuff with the spiritual contextand the spiritual truth
mixed with it.
So it's, it's I'm reallyI really love it.
(01:05:08):
I'm really proud of it.
I can't appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
I can't recommend ithighly enough.
So and not even just
if you're in pain rightnow, but, life happens.
We're all going to have painat some point in our life.
So to have this as somethingthat's book on your shelf
to pullwhen you get back into that pain
(01:05:31):
or that pain comesinto your life unexpectedly,
is is a really goodI think is well, well worth it.
So I would put the linkof course, it's on Amazon
and I will put the linkin the show notes
and you can get it there.
And I will.
Is there a wayto get Ahold of you.
(01:05:52):
Do you want to put
some type of reference oremail address or web's website?
We'll put your website.
Yeah, I have a website,LetitiaIona.com
and you can also find meon Facebook and Instagram.
Okay. Perfect. All right.
Well thank you so muchfor watching
and listening to this podcastand I hope that you have found
(01:06:17):
it encouraging and informative,and I hope
that you will share itwith other people
that you knowwould benefit from it.
And again,
thank you for following mefor Change My Relationship
and I hope you will returnfor more podcasts.
Thank you. God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
(01:06:39):
We hope you will subscribeto these podcasts
and share themwith your friends.
Karlawould love to hear from you.
She welcomes
ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helpedyour life and relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship
(01:07:01):
and Karla Downing's ministry,
including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to a podcastby Change My Relationship,
featuring licensed marriageand family therapist and author
Karla Downing.
These podcast are designedto provide you
with practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
Today,Karla will be interviewing
a guest who has experienceda relationship problem
(00:22):
and successfullyworked through it.
Welcometo Change My Relationship
podcast I have with me today,my dear friend Letitia Iona.
And as you know,
my favorite thing to dois to interview
somebody who has gone throughsignificant relationship
(00:46):
adversity or a challenge,whichever way
you want to put it, and come outon the other end of it.
Not meaning thateverything is perfect,
but that she has risen above it,
managed to figure outhow to thrive within it.
And as we're going to be talkingabout today,
even foundGod's purpose in her pain.
(01:08):
And we are going to talk abouther new book called
There Is Purpose in Your PainEmbracing Adversity and Finding
God's Purpose in the Midstof Life's Challenges.
I absolutely love it,
and I think there's a lot for usto kind of
integrate into, helping,looking at the book and then
also looking at her situation.
(01:30):
But I would like to start withjust getting to know
you, Letitia,
and to
talk about your background
and maybe to get some
idea of like,
why and how did you cometo actually write about this?
But let's just talk about youfirst
as a little girl, which isusually where I like to start.
What was your childhoodlike and was there pain in it?
(01:52):
Wow. Well, thankyou Karla so much for having me.
I am absolutely delightedto be on your podcast.
Your ministry is phenomenaland has helped
so many people,so many women, including me.
So thank you. Yes.
So, growingup, I, was in a Christian home.
(02:13):
Both of my parents,we went to church
every Wednesdayand every Sunday.
I was heavily
involved in youth groupand trips and summer camp.
We lived on a cul-de-sac,and I had an older sister
and a younger sister,and I had tons of friends.
We rode bikesand went to the park
(02:34):
and went to the liquor storeand bought candy and gum
and all of those things.
And it was a very,wonderful childhood,
and relationship to pain.
There's two incidents that,come to mind, I had a father
who, has since passed away, buthe was, very quiet, very shy.
(02:57):
Worked really, really hard,for our family, which allowed
my mom to be at homeand raise me and my sisters.
But he was very distant.
he worked, the night shift,and he'd work all night,
and then he'd come homeand sleep all day,
and there wasn'ta whole lot of interaction
or spendingquality time together.
(03:22):
Which left
me feelingreally fearful of him.
He would take us on wonderfultrips in the summer time.
We would travel in the caracross country,
you know, we'd go to Texas, we’d
go to Georgia, Florida,all these wonderful things.
And looking back,he was there, but he wasn't.
(03:43):
He wasn't really there.
He was driving the carand checking us into the hotel
and eating at restaurants,
and he was there,but he wasn't really there.
And that was always somethingthat was really hard for me.
Another thing was,
I remember as a little girl,
I had, a friend who was alittle bit younger than me,
(04:07):
and we would play Barbiestogether,
and she lived in a single momhome.
She had two older brothersand sisters that were twins
who were really good friendswith my older sister.
And so I would go over thereand we would set up Barbies
and set up the house,I mean, for hours,
(04:30):
and then we would play Barbies,
and then we wouldgo outside to play.
And because she was a little bit
younger, some of my friendswere kind of like,
why are you hanging outwith her? You know?
And so at some pointshe would go inside
and she would tell her brotherthat I was being mean to her
and her brother,who was in high school,
(04:52):
who I assume was
probably the man of the houseand very protective of everyone.
He would come outsideand he would scream
and yell at me in front ofall my friends in the street.
And it was shocking.
It was scary.
I didn't understandwhy this big teenager
(05:12):
was talking to me this way,but I didn't say anything.
I didn't do anything.
I would just go homeand I would cry.
I wouldn't tell my parents,I wouldn't tell my sister.
I would just keep it to myself.
It was embarrassing.
It was sad.
I didn't understand it.
So the second time it happened,
(05:34):
I went home,I cried and my older
sister heard me crying.
And she was the kind of sisterwho didn't like it.
If somebody was messingwith somebody in her family,
even if you weren'ther favorite person.
I was not her favorite person.
But she was like,what are you crying about?
(05:57):
And I'm like, well, suchand such just screamed at me,
so come on, let's go.
So she treads on down the streetand she tells him off,
and I guess everythingwas square after that.
But as I was reflecting
on this question,I remembered that moment
because it really relatesto a lot of things
(06:17):
that have happened in my life.
Moving forward.
And so those were two thingsthat were very painful in my
life as a child.
So wheredid you meet your husband,
your first husband, andwhat was your courtship like?
I met my first husband
through a friend who I went tochurch high school with.
(06:38):
We were really dearfriends, even to this day.
And she knew of this guythat she thought
I would be interested in.
And so
during that season in our life,
we had graduatedfrom high school,
and we were going toour friend's weddings
and every wedding,she kept bringing up this guy
(07:01):
saying,
I think you guys would beso great together,
telling me all about him.
And so I don't thinkthere were cellphones back then.
So we emailed each other,for about a month.
We lived, I don't know,30 minutes from each other.
So we started emailingand corresponding.
(07:23):
I think we did talk on the phoneat some point,
and then eventually we metand we started dating.
Okay.
And then how long did youdate before you got married?
We dated for about two years.
Okay.So that's a good amount of time.
And then tell us aboutyour marriage.
Was there pain in your marriage,
(07:44):
and what are some of yourthoughts
and your feelingsthat you have about that
now that you're looking back?
I remember meetingyou during your marriage.
That's right.
A lot of pain in your marriage.
And you took my classesand even hosted
my class for women in difficultmarriages at your own church.
And, taught the materialyou didn't take my videos.
(08:06):
You actually taughtthe material. So you were.
That's right.
Yeah, I rememberspending a lot of time
talking with youabout what your struggles were.
So tell us about that.
Yeah.
The marriage was funand exciting.
It was new.
He was from another country,so that was really cool.
Getting to learn abouthis culture and experiencing
(08:27):
all the partiesand the birthdays.
But probably about 4 to 5 monthswithin the marriage,
I realizedthat there was something wrong.
Whenever there was a situation
of disagreementor even conflict, he
typically would just shut downand didn't want to deal with it.
(08:50):
And most of the timeit was me bringing it up.
Like, you know,
I really didn't like itwhen you did this
or you said thisor I don't really agree.
And I'm having these hurtfeelings and I'm thinking,
I'm going to come to my husbandand we're going to talk it out
and we're going to come to
some kind of compromiseor understanding.
(09:11):
But oftenhe would get very angry with me
for even telling him how I felt,
and then he woulddisagree with me, and then
he would just shut down.
And a lot of timesthat was him leaving the house
and going to work.
He was a mechanic.He owned his own mechanic shop.
(09:32):
And so he would just
leaveand go to work, and I'd be left
with all these feelingsof hurt and confusion.
And now I'm frustratedand not really sure
what to do with my feelings.
What what do I dowhen he comes home?
What do I dowhen the next thing happens?
So eventuallyit just kind of built up.
(09:55):
Yeah.
And then then there were alsosome financial issues,
I think, and some didn't dowe felt like he was passive
aggressive in the waythat he dealt with you,
and especially the kidsand your parenting of the kids
and not taking responsibilityin the home.
Yeah, he was he wasvery consistent with work.
(10:17):
But he was inconsistentwith his relationship with me
and the kids, even
with disciplining the children,it was very, very inconsistent,
which caused the kidsa lot of stress and they never
knew what to expect.
And then when he decided to,be a disciplinary,
it was very harshbecause of his culture.
(10:40):
It was very harsh.
So it caused a lot of issueswith the children emotionally.
Financially,because he had his own business.
He was always struggling.
And so he kind of just lefteverything for me to handle.
And, I would kind of carrythe weight while
I'm raising the two kidsand going to work.
(11:03):
And then aftersome time I'd be like,
I'm not doing this anymore.
You know, we need to sit downand talk about what you can do,
what you can contribute.
And just like the beginningof the marriage,
bringing up these things,setting boundaries was
really hard.
He would always pushagainst my boundaries.
He would ignore my boundaries,
or ridicule me for evenhaving them in the first place.
(11:25):
So it was very,it was very difficult.
Very hard.
At one point we were separated,
and it was during that
time that I sought help.
I've never been oneto just give up just like that.
And so, we're two kidsinto this marriage,
and I'm like, Lord,what am I going to do?
(11:47):
I need help.
And so,I would pray with my kids,
we would pray for daddy,we would pray for our lives.
And then I'd go into my roomand I’d get online, and I would
just start searching how,how to get help for my marriage.
And I remember I rememberfinding your website and.
(12:08):
Somewhere in there,
there was an articlethat that I was directed to.
And in that articleI read on a passive
aggressive person,and I felt like I was reading
my life in that article.
It was to a T.
I had never heard of passiveaggressive behavior,
(12:28):
any of those things.
And I was just like,oh my goodness.
And so I remember I emailed you,just to get therapy
and you said, I'mnot doing therapy anymore,
but I have these classes forwomen in difficult marriages.
And I thought, I'm a womanin a difficult it’s
(12:48):
like that'sexactly the right phrase.
And so I believe thatthat following week
I was at your classesdriving around Ontario
to Orange County,and I took those classes
for the next three yearsand absolutely changed
my life, changedmy marriage, changed my outlook.
(13:11):
I was actually able
to stay in my marriagebecause of your classes.
Well, yeah.
And and for peoplewho are listening
that don't know how far Ontariois to Orange County
with out traffic,it can be 40 minutes.
40 - 45 minutes but with trafficit can be a whole lot longer.
(13:31):
But traffic. So it does take,
dedicationand having a deep desire
to do that and commit to itfor three years,
especially with being
you were you take the kidswith you a lot of the time.
So, yes, it is
it it changed your marriage,
(13:54):
yet it still ended upin a divorce.
So what do you mean by that?
It changed my marriage in that
I was learningabout the behaviors that were
being played out in my marriage,that I didn't understand. And,
and then with the principlesthat you taught, it allowed me
to respond in a different way,
(14:16):
which gave me peace.
Prior to your class,I was the woman
who was trying to convince himwhat you're doing is not good.
What you're doingis going to end in divorce.
What you're doing is hurting me.It's hurting the children.
Like we have to figure out a wayto work through all of this.
(14:39):
And then with the passiveaggressive behavior, I was
it was getting to me.
I was respondingin a negative way.
So then when I learned theprinciples, all of that stopped.
And even though his behaviorcontinued,
I was able to find safetyin the principles
(15:00):
better understanding.
I was less frustrated.
I was respondinglike a godly wife instead of
just in anger and,being petty and tit for tat.
It just gave me so much peace.
And it actually,in many instances,
changed his behaviorbecause my behavior was changed.
So it was important to change meand not him.
(15:23):
Yeah.
Kind of like the you'rein a dance in a relationship.
If you take the same
step, you take the same stepevery time he takes a step,
you guys are completely stuck,but you take a different step
and you are like thisthan for him to even respond.
He's got to stepover here to where you are.
So it changes the dynamic.
(15:44):
And definitelywhen you feel like you're
the one that's decidinghow to respond and deciding
how to act,you have much more control
in a situationthat you can't control.
And that does give you peace,and it gives you confidence
and it gives you strength.
And sometimes it lessensthe dysfunction
(16:04):
and can even make itsomewhat workable,
even if it's not your ideal,so that like
I remember going to counseling
at our church at the timeand sitting down
with this pastorwho we had sat down with before.
And I remember my ex-husbandsaying,
(16:25):
yeah,things have really changed.
And then he said,I haven't changed anything
but somethingin this relationship,
this marriage has changed.
And I remember just sittingthere very quietly like,
that's that'sexactly that's exactly right.
It's interesting that he had
the willingness to admitI haven't changed anything.
(16:48):
I haven't changed at all.
But something's changed.
I don't know what it is.
So then how come that ended upin a divorce?
What?What actually happened? It.
Of course, because
he kept leaving
and it was causing mestress and pain.
(17:08):
And the childrenwere being so affected by it.
And, you know, I kept saying,you know, we got to get help.
You got to move back home.
We got to figure this out.
And of course, the same thing.
He didn't want to deal with it.
Obviously,he didn't have any problems.
And I finally decided, I can'tkeep doing this to myself.
(17:31):
I can't keep doing
this to my childrenwhen children don't, understand
what's going on with adults,
a lot of times they takethat out to be their fault.
Yeah.
And I remember asking them
after certain situationswhat they thought,
and they thought thatit was their fault.
And I just was like,if he's not going to get help.
(17:52):
And so I remember it was
I remember I was taking downthe Christmas tree
at the beginning of the year,
and I invited him overto have a conversation,
and it was the same response,
and I had decidedI was going to file, so I filed.
But then he wanted to reconcile.
So then we worked on
(18:13):
reconciling, but he continuedto pursue the divorce
behind my backwithout me knowing,
and eventuallythat's where we ended up.
Yeah. And then
when youwent through all of that,
do you remember at the time
were you looking for purposein the pain, and did you come
(18:34):
to any realization of whatthat purpose might have been?
Because it's hardafter you've spent
a lot of yearsin a dysfunctional marriage,
and then it ends and then,you know,
your children have been affectedand you look back up usually
and you think, oh my gosh,I wasted all these years.
Why didn't I leave earlier?
How did you how did you grapplewith all that?
(18:57):
I don't know if I looked
for God's purposein that marriage.
I don't know if that's wheremy mindset was at the time.
I know in painthroughout my life.
What it doesis draw me closer to God.
(19:17):
Going to your classeswas a big part of that.
Seeing Godin the midst of the pain
that might have beenthe purpose.
That was the purpose.
I don't knowif I recognized that then,
but when you're goingthrough difficulty
in, you know, the most importantrelationship in your life,
(19:38):
you have to look to God.
You have to look to him to giveyou the strength to carry on,
especially raising two kidsat the same time
and trying to do your life.
I remember at that time I was
directing, the AP gospel Choir,
and you can imagine how many,
(20:00):
mornings or night beforeI had a huge concert
that his behavior would switch
in such a way that would causesuch stress in our marriage.
It was like the enemy knewthat I was about to minister
with these young people, and,everything would just be flipped
upside down.
(20:20):
I would be crawling to get towork, to direct these children.
And it was only the strengthof God that carried me
through those concertsand through those moments.
So that
that those moments of pain
caused me to be more dependent
on the Holy Spirit,on my heavenly Father,
(20:43):
to carry me when I didn't haveanything else to give.
Yeah, I,I can relate to that too.
In the lowest, lowest moments
when God is the closestand it isn't because he's not.
He's any closerto us than necessarily.
We are open to his presenceand his love and his care
(21:05):
because we get desperate,unfortunately, because then
that istypical for a lot of us, that
just like the Israelites,things go good and they're like,
we don't need God,and they go bad.
And they're like, what do you dowhen you're abandoning us?
He's like,we forget him all the time.
Yep. Yeah.
(21:25):
We forget all the time. Exactly.
It's kind of part of ourunfortunately, our human nature.
So now I knowyou made some major moves
after that divorce.
And what were those
I did, I decided,
to move out of state.
(21:48):
I had a desire
to move to Tennessee for many,many years.
I remember many years
asking him to move and he justthought that that was crazy.
And it it is, and it was,but it was,
deep desire of mine, going frombeing married to a single mom,
(22:08):
just struggling in lifefinancially, going through 2020,
which really affected,my son, my children.
I wasjust ready for a fresh start.
And I really didn't knowit was going to be in 2021.
I thought it would bemaybe some years later.
(22:28):
But God really opened the doorfor me to move.
I really sought himin that decision.
And October 1st,
2021, we arrived in Tennessee.
Me and my children and our car.
Yeah and it,.
I everybody I know that'smoved to Tennessee loves it.
(22:53):
But I knowit's a big transition.
So you met your second husband.
It did.
How did that happen.
And what was that marriage like?
So what were you expectationsfor that marriage?
Let's askwhat were my expectations?
So, I met my second husbandonline, and, I was really just
(23:14):
looking for someoneto show me around Nashville,
and it turned into a full blownrelationship.
We had tons of fun.
There were so many things that,we did together in our dating
that he had never donebefore in Nashville.
So there were tons of firsts.
(23:35):
wonderful new experiences,traveling to Gatlinburg.
Never been there before.
Going to all different places,meeting his family.
Tons of restaurants.
Just so much fun.
But in that marriage, my husbandwas verbally abusive to me.
(23:59):
And a lot of it
started after we got married.
At the time when we met, meand my kids were
living in our home.
And then after we got married,I let my home go, and
I moved into his home.
And there
were these very strange
(24:22):
episodes that I would call themthat came out of nowhere.
It would be, afterhe came home from work and,
he's kind of isolating.
I don't understand why.
We've just hada wonderful weekend together.
And, I would go into the roomto ask him, hey, what's
(24:43):
what's going on?
It feels like you're isolating.
You're pulling away.
And however I said itor whatever he was feeling in
that moment could trigger himjust like that.
And the next thing you know,I'm being called
all kinds of names,being insulted
for how I look at my bodyand what I do for a living
(25:07):
and being a mother,I mean, just full blown,
raging and,
in the beginning,I was kind of like,
well, what he's sayingdoesn't make any sense.
It's not true.
I know who I am as a woman.
I know who I amas a child of God.
(25:28):
I know who I am as a mother.
So we'll just keep pressing on
and hopefully he'll figure out
that I am who I say I am.
Hopefullyhe'll figure out that I love him
and I care about him.
But there was a lot of mistrust.
There was a lot of anxiety.
(25:50):
There was a lot of stress.
There was a lot of disbeliefand disillusion.
And it just it was awful.
And because of his personality,
he'd come out of these episodes
and he turned into the guythat I fell in love with.
(26:12):
And so we begin this circle,
the cycle of ups and,
and very, very highsand then very, very deep lows.
And he would love on meand my daughter,
and he would be very generousand kind to us all
so that we would, eventuallylet him back in and forgive him.
(26:35):
He would apologize.
We'd have these,
theological spirits or momentswhere he could recognize
that he was wrong and that,what he was doing was not okay.
But things never really changed.
The cycles just continued,and I kept forgiving him.
And I kept tolerating, until his
(26:58):
dramatic,anxiety and fears turned into,
I'm going to get rid of you,and I'm going to divorce you.
And so seven months into ourmarriage, he filed for divorce.
Yeah.
And that's so
hurtful.I mean, it doesn't matter
if the problemsare there or not.
(27:19):
Or you could even bethinking about.
Maybe I need to leave someone.
But when somebody that you love
decidesthey're going to divorce you,
that that's a really additionaldeep level of pain.
So, so, so, so hurtful.
So. Yeah.
Well, it's so bad for you.
(27:40):
It was extremely devastating.
In fact, it was the weekof Valentine's and
the following day
we were planning to spendthe entire day together.
I had taken the day off of work.
He was off of work.
We had all these plansof what we were going to do.
(28:01):
I've come home from work.
I'm, deciding what I'm goingto wear the next day.
I'm cooking food for himand my daughter,
and this man comes and knockson the door and hands me divorce
papers without telling youthat that's coming.
Just like a shock.
I know another womanthat that happened to,
and I just like I was justhe was in the house
(28:22):
actually this guy at the timethat they delivered that.
And I was just I've got toI couldn't even believe that.
I'm like, what?
You are in a
marriage with somebodyyou don't like leave.
Everything'ssupposedly going okay.
And then you just knock on
the door and have divorce papersdelivered.
The shock is beyondbelief to me.
(28:44):
I'm so sorry. Trauma.
It is traumathat they're inflicting.
And it was never really,
if you asked him today,does he want a divorce?
He'll say, no,I don't want a divorce,
but I don't want to livelike this.
And and these overwhelmingfeelings of anxiety and fear,
that's what over took him.
(29:07):
That caused him to actin this way.
That caused him to believe.
I've got to get awayfrom this woman,
and you know in your heartthat you
your behaviorwas not causing him that pain.
It was his internal struggleswithin himself
(29:27):
and his perceptionsand interpretations
and his old woundsthat he was struggling with.
And we know that when a personcannot
bear to facethe truth about themselves
and see the truthabout themselves,
that they put up a facadeon the outside,
(29:48):
they have like a fake imagethat they show,
but at the same timethey project that pain
and those inadequaciesand the cause of their pain
onto someone else,so that they do not have to
look at themselves and say,oh man, I'm messed up.
I got this wargoing on inside of me.
(30:09):
Oh yeah, I've
got all these crazy feelings,
and I'm really strugglingwith my own self-perception.
And it isn't her.
It's the stuff inside me.
If they can't dothat, it's got to go outward.
And that's what causesa lot of that behavior.
And and had you not gone througheverything
you had gone through before,
you might have said,oh, I'm just going to stay.
(30:31):
I'm going to forgive him. I'mgoing to keep doing this.
But you knew the traumathat was causing
you and howthat was not good for you.
And so you refused.
He asked youto come back, right?
And you refused multiple,multiple times.
I mean, within the marriage,it would be
(30:52):
it was always, forgive me.
You have to forgive me.
I'm I'm I'm sorry.
it was this
or it was that which generallyhe would make it my fault.
But he always wanted meto forgive him right away.
And I couldn't.
I couldn't because I would tryto explain to him
(31:14):
that the things that you said,
it's like you shot me for.
I'm wounded. I'm.
I'm bleeding out right now.
Like it's not going to happenright away.
And over time, I was ableto bounce back faster.
But it was justkind of a learned behavior.
I was able to just move onback to the good times,
(31:38):
knowing that everythinghe was saying wasn't true.
But it was painful.
It was extremely painful and
there was so much frustrationand confusion.
Nothing made sense.
One of the things that I didto help me through
those times is to startjournaling and writing down
(32:00):
the things that were beingsaid, because when you hear
negative, awful things like that
so often, you can startbecoming a little crazy.
You start thinking, well,
maybe I am that way, or maybethat is why I did what I did.
Or maybe that is how I feel.
(32:21):
And it was very therapeuticand helpful to me to write out
and see what was being said, tolook at it and say,
that is not true.That is not who I am.
That is not what I was feelinganyways.
How can you tell a personhow they are feeling anyways?
That's okay.
(32:41):
I am me and you are you.
We are different people.
You can't tell me what I wasthinking or how I was feeling.
So it was very helpfulto write those things out.
So let's get back
now to writing this book.
The where did the idea comefrom?
What?
(33:02):
I mean, how did all thatcome about?
Well, for years
I had been thinking,
I really want to write a book.
I had just had so many reallyhard and painful experiences,
but such beautifulthings came out of all of them.
(33:23):
And the season of lifethat I was
in, I there was an opennessin my heart and mind.
Even asidefrom the difficulties in my
my marriage, there was spacein my life that I thought
this would be a wonderful timeto start writing this book.
And as you, were readingthe title,
(33:45):
it's about finding God'spurpose in the midst
and I had developed
such a way of life to get methrough my difficult marriage.
I thought,there's probably tons of people
who are going throughdifficult things right now,
and you don't always lookfor the purpose.
(34:07):
You don't want to lookfor other purpose.
You just want whatever it isto be done and over with,
and you just want to get through
and get to the other sideas quick as you can.
And I just learned that
if you look at your painin a certain way,
if you look for God's purposeand what you're going through,
(34:28):
you can see such beautifuland wonderful things.
And so I sat down in the midstof all of this pain,
and I started writingthis book as a love letter,
to people who,
if they are in any kind of pain,
this is how you can find God'spurpose in the midst of it.
(34:50):
And and I really like itbecause it is
it feels like that.
It feels like you're saying,here's some balm in the midst
of, you know, some healing balmin the midst of your pain,
that it's practical.
You interviewed people,lots of people, including myself
and for the book to get,
(35:11):
you know, examples of painthat they've gone through
and things that they've learnedand perspective.
So I love that partwith their stories
woveninto yours, your information.
But you also have likepractical steps
and things you can doin the midst of pain.
Things you can ask yourself,goals you can set.
(35:31):
it's so it's very it's like it'sgot like breaking it down,
which I don't know that
I've ever read a bookthat actually breaks it down
with pride.
And, you know,I love practical. Yeah.
So I love practical stuffbased on biblical truth,
but like, what can I do?
You know, in the midst of thatpain, it's it's a crisis.
You know,you're you're needing something
(35:53):
and you needing somethingpractical today.
And it can't be real ethereal.
It has to be very,
very like material and presentand something that.
So I love it.
So, whatwhat are some of the purposes
that people told youabout in their pain?
What are some of the thingsthey brought up?
A lot of them, which
(36:17):
while I was interviewing and
writing the book,I wasn't at that place yet.
I'm at that place now.
But I wasn't at this place.
But a lot of them saidthey were so grateful
and thankful to Godfor what they had gone through,
and they would go through itall over again.
And this is, difficultmarriages.
(36:40):
Husbandscheating on their wives, women,
losing, having a stillbirth.
Just all kinds of thingsthat I learned from the people
that I interviewed.
Time and time again,
they said I would go through
this all over againto find the purpose
that I found in my pain.
(37:00):
And that was just like, wow.
That is wow.
Especially when you saysomething like a stillbirth.
Like, I would go throughall of that again.
It's like, wow, that is hardto imagine being able to say.
But on the other side of it,
that sometimes you do havea different perspective,
(37:22):
but a lot of it, you're talkingabout
getting a different perspectiveeven in the midst of your pain,
which is really,really hard to do.
So, what were
what are some of those practicalthings that you tell people
to do?
One of the things that I talk
about a lot in the bookand what I would connect to,
(37:42):
why so many of the peoplethat I interviewed said
they would do it all over again
is because they sharedtheir pain.
A lot of times when you're
in a really dark place,whether it's
an illness or loss,you don't want to talk about it.
You don't want people to knowwhat you are going through.
(38:04):
Maybe you're ashamed.
Maybe you haven'tfigured out the reason why.
But because the people
that I interviewed were gratefuland had found purpose,
it was because it was
helping other people,because they open up their mouth
and they shared it,which was just my
(38:26):
overall purpose in this book.
I wanted peopleto be able to relate.
I want it to be able to relateto other people,
to let them knowyou are not alone.
It doesn't matter how difficultit is, you are not alone.
Not only is God with you,but when you open it up and you
(38:46):
share that story, a lot of timespeople can comfort you.
You don't have to carry the loadby yourself.
I don't know how many timesI've called my best friend
with whateverwas going on in my life,
and sometimes her perspectiveis something that I didn't see
or I didn't recognize,and it gives me
a better perspectiveon what I'm going through.
(39:10):
So it's really important,even if it's just talking
to God, crying out to God,God, I'm in pain.
This is what I'm going through.
Please help meopen up your mouth and share
whatever it isthat you're going into.
You don't know
how you can change other people,including yourself,
because you open upand you share.
(39:33):
Yeah, I agree in 1 Corinthians1:2-4 talks
about comforting each otherwith the comfort
that we've receivedpersonally from the Holy Spirit,
which gives other peoplea chance to comfort you
when you'rein the midst of that pain
which fulfills their purpose.
And it also gives youthat comfort.
(39:55):
And sometimes you end up
comforting someonein the midst of your pain
who also has pain just bythe things that you share.
And the other thing is,we have this
unfortunatelystill in the church.
It's a little betterin some churches, but not better
in other churches.And that's that.
We've got to have a facadewhere we are praising Jesus
(40:20):
and rising above it,and we're willing to suffer,
and we're in it for the longhaul.
And it's for,doing all this stuff.
And that meanswe have to be tough
and we got to smile,and we got to pretend that
everything's okay.
And it's so not true.
We do not have to do that.
(40:42):
And I always think about this
scripture in 1 Corinthians,the one I just talked about.
Wait a minute.
If we're not supposedto share our pain
and share our hurt and sharewhen we're down,
how would we have been comfortedby the Holy Spirit
in the first place to wherewe could now go, comfort others?
(41:04):
And if they weren't
supposed to tell uswhat they were going through,
how would we knowto comfort them?
So this is just anotherone of those weird like ideas
that we have in the churchwhere that are
just not realistic,not scriptural.
Like, yes,we are supposed to be real.
We are supposed to beareach other's burdens.
(41:25):
Yes, we are supposedto reach carefully.
Not everyone understands
some of the thingswe're going through,
especially when it's likedysfunction
in relationships, right?
Families and marriages.
You got to share with somebodywho is not going
to give you one of thosepat answers.
make your husband loveyour wife.
just keep having sexor whatever.
(41:45):
we don't want we don't wantto talk to those people.
That causes more pain.
But, we are supposed to shareabsolutely
100% and lift each other up and,
and be very openwith what's going on with us.
And it's okay not to smile.
It's okay to be broken.
It's okay to be confused.
(42:06):
It's okay to need help, Yeah,absolutely.
And then,are there any other things about
their testimoniesthat people brought up that
you could remember that reallykind of struck you as profound?
I mean, that wasthat was the biggest one.
I mean,because they were sitting down
(42:29):
and interviewing with me,that was that was their sharing
and that always connectedto their purpose.
One particular lady, Brittany,
she, you'll read in the book
she tells her storyof how she had two stillbirths
(42:49):
and actuallyshe had one stillbirth.
And the second onedidn't live very long.
And she rememberedhow her sister was like,
let God use you.
And she's thinking,
how is anyone getting usedto me?
I'm so broken right now.
(43:10):
How is God going to use me?
And she kept thatwhen she had her
second childand the girl passed away,
she kept telling herself thatand as a result,
she was ableto find such incredible healing.
And then she startedsharing her story on Facebook,
(43:33):
and peoplestarted reaching out to her,
and she was able
to share her story with themand encourage them.
And till she had thisministry, in fact,
the way I found out about her isI was at the dentist,
the dentist,my dentist at the time asked me,
you know,what are your plans after this?
(43:54):
I said, I'm in the processof writing a book.
Oh, well, what's the title?
There's purpose in your pain.
Do you know what my friendjust posted?
Something about pain.She went through all this?
She went through a stillbirth.
I think she, too, wouldtotally relate to your story.
And I'm like,
can I have her information?
I reached out to her,and that's how I met her.
(44:17):
And so what a profound ministry
to go from these two,passings of her children
to ministering on Facebookto meaning me.
And now she's featuredin my book Talk About Purpose.
That's just going onand on and on.
(44:38):
But if she had stayed quiet,if she had not tried
to find God's purposein her pain,
I don't know where.
Yeah.
And it doesn'teven have to be a ministry,
because sometimes, I mean,
a lot of people aren'tgoing to have a ministry
like in the classic senseof a ministry.
(45:01):
But a ministry can be talkingto one person,
sharing with your neighbor, or,it can be
just literally having comfortto give to someone
who does happen to talk to you
and havinga different perspective
and so it doesn't have tobe a big ministry that's on,
(45:26):
doesn’thave to be a big ministry.
It doesn't have to be a book.
It doesn’t have to be,you know, a post on Facebook.
It could just be talkingto your heavenly father
and even just the waythat it changes us,
but I don't
I knowyou and I had this conversation,
and I won't give it all away
because you put some of itin the book, but
I don't think that God gives us
(45:47):
pain on purpose to teach us,
like not God bringing the painlike I'm going to make.
I'm going to havetwo babies die.
One, one and one, you know,just a few days later weeks.
Just because I want to teach yousome things, right, I don't.
(46:08):
Our Heavenly Father loves us.
He promises us every goodand perfect
gift comes from us, right?
And I just don't thinkGod's like going.
I'm going to
give her this diseaseI'm going to give her MS,
with a bunch
of other things with it sothat she can learn to trust me.
Life happens, right?
(46:29):
And I think God useswhat happens to us
as part of his design and partof his purpose with right.
And he promisesto bring good out of it.
But heI don't think he brings it.
And, I'm going to
read something out of thisthat I really liked.
It says if you land on the painand just acknowledge it, but
(46:52):
you don't find a way to use it,that becomes your end.
Just pain, no real purposeand nothing comes from it.
Says thepain is wasted on tears,
disappointment, frustration,anger, and often more pain.
You have to ask the question,why am I facing this pain?
You must look for the reasonwhy you are going through this.
And yes,some pain may seem surface
(47:15):
senseless, but God's purposecan still emerge from it.
What God might be showing youor teaching you that's question.
What might God be showing youor teaching you?
These questions will allow youto take your eyes off
your pain, off yourself, and offhow you thought it should be.
In doing so, you will beginto see the purpose.
(47:36):
And I love that that's andand you might not be able
to do that fully in the midstof the heart wrenching pain
or the the short denial stage
of a diagnosis, or a tragedyhappening in your life.
But as you move through itand you move through
the grief stages
and you'regetting to that place,
(47:57):
those are some of the thingsthat can begin.
You can begin to askand yeah, purpose.
We're, we're we're designedto want purpose, to want
significance, towant to find a reason for thing.
We may never knowthe actual why.
You know why.
(48:18):
Remember the movie The Shackwhere he was like, why?
Why did my daughter die?
And I never really got the why,
but there wasn't really a why,except that
the world is a place
where bad things happenbecause some people are sinful,
But but the outcome ofthat was his opening up
(48:41):
his heart to the loveof his Heavenly Father. You,
you know, in, thinking back
through my difficult marriages,there was pain there.
There was pain that wasn't
acknowledged.
There was painthat wasn't fully recognize.
(49:03):
And, pain
if you are in pain, hurtpeople, hurt people.
That's what was trying to say.
And so, a lot of whatI experience in my marriages
really helped me in this bookto really help people see,
like you just read,don't sit on that pain.
(49:26):
Don't don't carry that pain
to every area of your lifefor the rest of your life.
It if you just land there,you're going to remain in pain.
And in most cases you're goingto cause pain to other people.
And so, like you just read,it's really important to,
(49:48):
to find something in it,
to deal with it, to grieve,
not to justpass it off as something that
you don't want to acknowledge,you don't want to deal with.
It's really importantto feel all of it.
And then you talkabout practical ways
to take care of yourself.
And and I love thatbecause it is
(50:11):
when you're in the midst
of really a lot of pain,it is like a crisis.
And therapists are taught to
have what's calledcrisis counseling,
which is when you crisiscounselor,
you give people information
that they need
to manage the crisis,and then you give them
some practical thingsto implement right away.
(50:34):
And I look at that,and when I read your book,
I was like,oh, this reminds me of that.
It's like in the midst of it,
like right away,here's some here's what you need
to manage this crisisin the midst of the crisis.
And yes, your perceptionand your come, your realization
of what your purpose is
(50:54):
does become enlargedand clearer over time.
Just knowing that even thoughGod does it
necessarilybring this into your life,
that he can use thisand bring purpose
out of itis a very comforting thing.
(51:15):
Yeah.
I'm a elementary music teacher,
and so it was importantfor me to,
do the practical thingsthat I talk about in the book
to help meto get up every morning
and goand love on these children.
(51:37):
I didn't want the painthat I was going through at home
to carry overinto my teaching these children.
So it was really importantfor me to stay in the word.
It was really important for meto, continue to pray
for myself and my husbandand my marriage and my family.
(52:00):
It was important for meto exercise in the morning
to make sure that I was puttinghealthy things in my body
so that my body can maintainwhen I was going
through the most stressful partsof my marriage.
So that I couldstill be the best music teacher
as well as the bestmom, during those times.
(52:22):
So yeah, that was some of the, practical things that I
put in the book that I thinkare really important to
to carry you through.
When you're in the midst of it,you must take care
of your body, heart,mind, soul, everything.
Yeah, totally.
Now you are in the process.
(52:44):
Divorcing your second husband.
You're living in your.
You moved recently to your ownplace with when your daughter.
I know this is,
some low points
as, So you're very aware, again,of being in grief
and pain overthe loss of the second marriage.
(53:07):
How are you processing thisin light of having
just written this book?
And now, here'sthe book, written this book,
and now you are back,right in the thick of it.
What are you what are some ofthe thoughts that you have?
Well, so, you know,he filed seven months in
and then last July,he withdrew it and
(53:30):
we were havinglike some new wonderful
things happen into the marriage.
And there was a lot of honestyand communication.
And we were setting goals.
I mean, for a good 2to 3 months, it was phenomenal.
And then right before I finishedthe book,
he filed to be filed again.
(53:50):
And so it wasreally, I'm like, okay, God,
I thoughtthat you I got it, I got it.
He's like,no, no, no, there's more.
There's.
And even during that time,I had a lot of weird accidents,
like cutting my handopen and my foot,
and it was all kinds of weirdthings
(54:11):
that I know just came fromthe stress of the situation.
But even during all of that,and up until now,
I go backto the principles of the book.
I mean, many timesI have to pick up the book
and read one of those chaptersto remind me
that God is doing something,
and I may not understand itright now.
(54:34):
I may not see it right now,but I'm going to continue
to chaseafter Christ and everything,
because he has sustained meall these years.
He has sustained me.
I remember just three weeks ago,as I'm packing up my house,
there were very dark, deep,
(54:54):
lonely moments in that time,and it didn't matter
who I calledand talked to or text,
they didn't understand whatI was feeling in that moment.
But God would whisper and say,I'm right here.
I've always been right here.
I am right here with you.
As you are packing these boxesand getting this stuff together.
(55:17):
I am right here with you.
You are not alone.
And that's huge.
To knowthat and to hang on to that.
And it's absolutely true.
And even if we don't have whatamounts to a whisper in our ear
from God telling us,
(55:37):
I'm righthere, you're not alone.
That is the truth.
No matter whatyou're going through, no matter
how distant you feel, no matterGod is right there with you.
You are not aloneand that is something
that we can hang onto regardless of what we feel
and what we think.It is a truth.
(55:59):
Absolute truth.
So leave the listenerswith something that
they can hang on to right nowif they're in the midst of pain
and can feeling that confusionand that just that,
that pain that they don't know
(56:19):
what to do with leaving themwith some couple of thoughts.
Well, one thing I
learned during this shortcouple of months,
even when you share
and even when you ask for help,
(56:40):
people may not always be able
to be there for youthe way you may need them to,
or you think that they should,sometimes when you're
going through something hard,it can be triggering to
another person who may have gonethrough that as well.
And I would
(57:00):
say, don't let that deter you
from still sharingwhat you're going through.
It's very easy to isolatewhen you're in pain.
It's very easy to be, I just gotto figure this out on my own.
I don't want anybody to knowwhat's going on,
but that is notwhat God wants us to do.
(57:24):
Not only doeshe want us to come to him,
but we are to be strengthfor one another
in the body of Christ.
And so I really learned that
even though I was askingfor help and needing
help, not everybodywas going to be able to help me.
But that's okay.
(57:45):
If anything, that just drew mecloser to the Lord.
I wouldalso say, stay in the word.
Stay in the word.
Right nowI am reading through the Bible,
through the Bible recap and,doing the Bible study
that goes along with it, as wellas watching the videos and
(58:09):
guys the stories in the Bible,
they're the same thingsthat are happening today.
It's the same thing.
And so reading,like we were talking
about the children of Israel,I'm in Deuteronomy right now.
They they're constantlyforgetting what God has done.
They're constantly being drawnaway by other people,
(58:31):
groups and idolsand so many different things.
And it's wonderful to readhow gracious God is to them
and how he wants to bein the midst of them.
He wants to be close to them.
He wants to forgive them,and he wants to raise them up
to be the people thathe has called them to be. So
(58:54):
and then just going back to,
those practical, everyday thingsof taking care of yourself,
you have to takecare of yourself.
You have to take careof your body so that you can
continue to be the very bestthat you can be in life.
You don't get to lay downand die.
(59:16):
You don't get to just check outfor a year or, or six months.
You still have to get upand keep going and in order
to have that tenacityand that resilience,
it really comes frombeing spiritually minded,
connected with Christ, connectedin your relationship
(59:38):
with God, connectedin your word.
I don't know how many timesI have read something in
my quiet time
that I'm sure I've read before,but it hits differently, right?
And Godwill specifically put scripture
and storyright before you that fits
whatever it isthat you're going through,
(59:59):
so you can get understandingand direction.
So taking care of yourselfspiritually, physically.
I'm in therapyevery single week.
I need that to keep going.
I have a nutritionist in my life
who is helping me with the foodsthat I need
to get me through this difficulttime.
(01:00:19):
As well as friends and familythat I can talk to.
All those thingsdon't don't shut down, don't
isolate, don't, just landand stay in that pain.
You have to keep going.
You have to keep going.
Yeah, I would agree.
The only thingI would say about Scripture
sometimes I knowfrom my own self, in the midst
(01:00:41):
of really confusing timesor really painful times,
if you're desperatefor a word from God
and if you take every singlething you're reading for a word
as a word from God,it can become very confusing.
So if you're at that place,be careful that you don't take
every single scripture
(01:01:02):
because one could tell youone thing,
and then the next Scripturetells you another,
or you or everything you hear,like on a radio station,
you know, women
that are makingtrying to make a decision,
should I stay in my marriageor not?
They'll hear one program
and it'll talk aboutstaying with your marriage.
And then a little bit laterthey hear a program and talks
aboutsomebody, talks about their
(01:01:23):
their divorce.
And it's like, what?
Which way am I going?What's God telling me?
You got to makeyour own decisions.
You gotta use your sound mindthat God has given you
with the abilityto make decisions.
So, you know,if you are confused.
What I did at those timesis definitely turn to the word.
But it might be Proverbswhich are just practical truths,
(01:01:46):
but not necessarily guarantee
they're they're,you know, practical ideas.
And rather than a promiseand Psalms where David is
and the Israelitesjust pouring out their hearts
through their pain. Yeah.
And so you can relate to justbeing real and, and knowing that
that's that they're that lamentto God is heard.
(01:02:11):
And then the other is justpraise.
Music is just being ableto be carried above
the circumstancesby just listening to praise.
It always lifts you
above your circumstancesand brings you closer to the
presence of God.
So but that is all intentional.
Taking care of yourself.
(01:02:31):
It is.
It is not just laying downlike you said
and passively like saying,I can't handle this.
It's how can I make it throughthis?
I can do these thingsthat will help me and lift me.
I'm one of those is reaching outto other people.
And you're right,
you are a you are responsiblefor letting people know
(01:02:56):
that you need something,but they don't have to say yes.
They might not be able tobecause of their own
circumstances, limitations,whatever.
That doesn't take don't takethat personally.
Recognize, okay.
That's they can't do that.
Then you ask somebody else.
But you dohave to be intentional. So.
(01:03:17):
Well, this interview,
at least to me, feels likeit was as good as I anticipated
because I got a lot of stuffto talk to.
And you are very upliftingand just
so beautiful in your countenanceand in your spirit.
And I am convincedthat God is going to use you
(01:03:41):
for bigger things that are goingto be even more so.
You the purpose of your pain.
And many, many are goingto be blessed through it.
And I'm so excitedthat I can say I knew her.
She opened.
But thank you so, so, so much.
(01:04:01):
You're welcome.
Me so much.
It's just been wonderful to evenknow you on this side of life.
And Karla's in the book two.
Karla is a book.
She gave me a
phenomenal interviewdriving in the car to Arizona.
And it's there is wonderful
perspective in the book,so I hope you check it out.
(01:04:24):
It's on Amazon. Yeah, I do it.
It's really good.
I think it's one that is,
you know,
some of the things
that I've read about,the reason I liked it
so much
is some of the things
that I've read about purposeand your pain.
There'sso high and mighty spiritual
that I don't really know howto implement them in my life.
I don't really know how to
(01:04:44):
take them down and say,other than to,
say all the right things,all the right spiritual things.
And, I just don't relate to themand how to do that.
I relate to this,which is the practical
stuff with the spiritual contextand the spiritual truth
mixed with it.
So it's, it's I'm reallyI really love it.
(01:05:08):
I'm really proud of it.
I can't appreciate that.
Thank you so much.
I can't recommend ithighly enough.
So and not even just
if you're in pain rightnow, but, life happens.
We're all going to have painat some point in our life.
So to have this as somethingthat's book on your shelf
to pullwhen you get back into that pain
(01:05:31):
or that pain comesinto your life unexpectedly,
is is a really goodI think is well, well worth it.
So I would put the linkof course, it's on Amazon
and I will put the linkin the show notes
and you can get it there.
And I will.
Is there a wayto get Ahold of you.
(01:05:52):
Do you want to put
some type of reference oremail address or web's website?
We'll put your website.
Yeah, I have a website,LetitiaIona.com
and you can also find meon Facebook and Instagram.
Okay. Perfect. All right.
Well thank you so muchfor watching
and listening to this podcastand I hope that you have found
(01:06:17):
it encouraging and informative,and I hope
that you will share itwith other people
that you knowwould benefit from it.
And again,
thank you for following mefor Change My Relationship
and I hope you will returnfor more podcasts.
Thank you. God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
(01:06:39):
We hope you will subscribeto these podcasts
and share themwith your friends.
Karlawould love to hear from you.
She welcomes
ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helpedyour life and relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship
(01:07:01):
and Karla Downing's ministry,
including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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