June 2, 2025 • 18 mins
Therapists doing therapy with an abuser and the victim together are making a huge mistake that further harms the victim and decreases the chance that the abuser will change. Watch this video to learn why therapists should not do couples therapy with an abuser and the victim together. #couplestherapy #therapyforvictims
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to an audio recordingby Change My Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These audios are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
(00:20):
I want to talk to you
about whyyou should not do therapy with an abuser
and the abusers victim.
So, in other words,couple therapy typically.
When you find out there's abusein the relationship, why should you not
continue with the therapyor not continue with counseling.
(00:42):
If you are a coach,seeing the couple together,
if you are a mentor couple,that is, counseling couples.
If you are a ministry leader, a pastor,once you recognize or identify
that there is abuse, should you keepseeing this couple together?
And that is typically what people dois they think, okay, well, I'm I see this.
(01:07):
It might be abuse or it is abuse,but I'm going to kind of keep
seeing this couple together.
But the has quite a few pitfalls.
And I want to talk to you about whatthose are.
Well, the first one is that
therapy is supposed to be a safe space,safe space for everyone.
And, when you are in therapyand you are maintaining a safe space,
(01:31):
you technically typicallydo not judge or align
with one coupleor one one person of the couple.
And by saying basically in the
you're safe space where you're neutral,
you don't typically say to the abuserthe problems are caused by you.
(01:53):
We're going to focus on you.
We're not going to focuson the other person.
We're just going to focus on youbecause you are abusive.
We typically don't do that.
What we do iswe maintain a neutral stance.
We maintainthe thought that both of you are at fault.
Both of you have problems.
Both of you are going to be listened toand taken at your word.
(02:13):
Both of youare going to get a chance to complain.
Both of you are goingto, be believed when you do that
in a session or in a relationship with
a victim of abuse.
You hurt the victim.
You do what Annette Oltmans callsdouble abuse.
(02:35):
You abuse the person further
by not validating their painand validating the abuse,
you minimize the importance of the abuse.
So having that whole attitudeof what you're doing, normally
when you're counselinga couple is having a neutral, safe space
(02:56):
and assigning problemsto both of them is damaging.
The next one is vulnerability.
When you're asking an abuse victimto be vulnerable, vulnerable
in a session, in a counseling session,
or a meeting with the abuser,you're forgetting something.
That vulnerabilityis going to backfire on the victim.
(03:19):
That abuser is going to take that outon the victim.
They're going to be angry.
They're going to punish.
There's going to be a fightwhen they leave.
There's going to be repercussions
that's going to be thrown at the victimand used against the victim.
So this is dangerous to expect
(03:40):
or to ask an abuse victim to be vulnerable
in a room with the abuser
is is really not good.
The next oneis, assigning co responsibility
for marital problems,which validates the abusers perceptions.
I think I kind of alluded to thatwhen I was explaining the first one
(04:02):
about the safe, neutral space,
but I just wanted to say that, again,to make it very clear
that when you are assigninga Co-responsibility,
you are basically agreeingwith that abuser.
Yes, this is her fault.
This is the victim's faultor this is his fault.
There there is a reason why I abuse andI abuse because this person is imperfect.
(04:23):
Or this other person,the victim, causes me to do that.
And so it is harmful.
The next one is that it's very easyto get sidetracked
with details of complaintsand overlooking patterns.
So you might, again, allow an abuser
to spend the whole time complainingabout things that the victim has done.
(04:45):
And it's very easyto get bogged down in those details
and not recognize and get to the pointwhere you actually point out,
I'm sorry, this is abusive.This is not okay.
So by allowing this person to go on and onand on about those details
the whole time that these are being statedand you're listening
and nodding and hearingand maybe asking questions,
(05:07):
the victim is sitting there and saying,oh my gosh,
the abuser is is saying things
that I supposedly did thatI didn't do, or blaming me for things that
I'm only doing because
I'm like, totally traumatizedbecause of the abuse,
and you're listeningas though those are valid.
(05:29):
And again, by getting bogged downwith all those details,
you're hurting the, the victim.
The next one, is listening to the abusersfalse accusations,
because abusers will make actualfalse accusations
and accuse the victim of doing thingsthat the victim didn't do.
And the abuser might say, well, she's
cheating on meor is chronically complaining or is crazy
(05:54):
or is, doesn't do the things
that I'm asking to be done.
Whatever they are, the false accusations,and you're listening to them
because you're, again, coming fromthat stance where you have to hear
what this person has to say and hear.
The victim has to sit thereand listen to another person agree
(06:15):
with validity of the abusersfalse accusations.
The next one is that validatingthe abusers
feelings or beliefs further traumatizethe victim.
So the victim is hearing you validate
what the abuser is saying
that is felt or experienced,
(06:36):
and the victim is thinking I
these things are part of the abuseand these or these things are crazy.
These things aren't even real.
Or this person is mad at mebecause I'm not
automatically complying with demandsthat are crazy.
So whatever it is that's being said,by validating it,
(06:58):
you are traumatizing the victim further.
The next one is by overlooking abusepassively
as opposed to confronting it outwardly,actually colluding with the abuser.
So you are actually saying to the abuser,
yeah,you're telling me that you're abusive.
(07:18):
I'm going on as if you're not abusive.
That is not passive.
It is actually colluding with the abuser.
It feels passive to you, but it is not.
It is overlookingsomething that is very damaging.
And by doing that, you in the victim's
viewpoint, are colluding with the abuser
and not siding with the victimand in abuse.
(07:42):
You must side with and protect the victim,and you have to do that
by calling out the abuseand by confronting the abuse.
The next one is allowing the abuserto use covert,
emotionally abusive tacticson the therapist.
On the therapistwill traumatize the victim.
(08:04):
And what I mean by that is
the abuser is going to be manipulative
with the therapist or the pastor,or the minister or the other couple.
Maybe gaslighting,they maybe minimizing, maybe,
doing things that will cause youto question or discounting things.
(08:24):
And so allowing those to workand having the victim
see that those things are workingis, again, traumatizing the victim
because the victim once againfeels very powerless.
Feels like in this session, I'mtrying to get this person
who I see as my rescuer,the person that might be able to help me
(08:46):
and remember the victim is desperate andin a lot of pain and feels very powerless.
I'm hoping that this person will rescueme, and instead
I'm sitting hereand I'm seeing the abuser actually
take control and power over this personthat I was hoping to be my rescuer.
And now I feel really hopelessbecause the abuser,
(09:07):
and this happens a lot with narcissisticpeople who literally
can charm the therapist or the pastoror the person
and get that personto believe them over the victim
that is being abused in thenot by the narcissist,
and actually get that person to sidewith them,
but by using all of their covert tacticsthat he can manipulate and pressure
(09:31):
and get that therapistor the to side with them.
And then the next one isthat the abuser is emboldened
to continue the abuseby seeing the abuser in couples therapy
and by listening to both sides,the abusers thinking, I'm the same.
I'm the same as the victim.
I've got legitimate claims hereand the abuser is not softened by that.
(09:56):
The abuser is emboldened by that.
Like I somebody else agrees with methat the victim is wrong, that,
my wife isn't perfect,that my wife doesn't
listen to me,that my wife doesn't submit to me.
So these or my child isn't
is rebellious or my child isn't obedient.
(10:17):
So whatever it is, or that my parent is
just, you know, just needs to be honored,whatever it is.
Basically, the abuser is emboldenedwhen somebody listens to it and continues
as if it's not a problem and does notcall it out and give support to the victim
(10:39):
to help that victim gain some
power back against the abuser,then the abuser is emboldened.
The next one isthe victim is retraumatized.
So any of this that's going onis literally retraumatizing
and hurting a victim.
And if you know how much paina victim of abuse is in recognizing
(10:59):
that you're actually causing more painand hurting, that that victim
will hopefully cause you to want to become
more, able to respond appropriately,
to abuse when you see itand to recognize it to support victims.
Next one is the hesitancy to use labelsto describe behavior patterns.
(11:22):
So therapists, pastors, peoplethey don't like to tell people,
oh, you're narcissisticor you are an abuser.
So the hesitancy to do that, to say,I'm, I'm recognizing abuse here.
You are.
You are an abuser.
Is it takes a lot for peopleto get to that point.
And because of that,
seeing a couple togetherwhere there is abuse, knowing that
(11:45):
that's a really high barfor you to get to where
you would actually call out abuse meansthat you're going to be reluctant to do it
because nobody likes to do thatand wants to do that.
And then there's always a fear in couplestherapy, because remember, we're talking
about the pitfalls of couples therapywhen abuse is present in a couple,
(12:08):
the is the fear of alienating the abuserby confronting the abuse
because therapists, pastors, any personthat is trying to help a couple,
they don't want to alienateone of the two of the couple.
They want both of themto be willing to continue in therapy
and to continue listeningand to continue coming.
(12:31):
So they're not going to want to saystrong things to the abuser
and point out to the abuserthat's abusive, that's not okay.
Or to side very clearly with the victimover the abuser,
because they're going to be fearful.
If I do that, he's not going to come back,then he's not going to get help, then
he's not going to continue to be open,maybe to me telling him things.
(12:56):
So you're not going to confront it,and there are other ways to do this.
You can confront the abuse.
I see abuse here.
This is a clear abusive pattern.
By confronting it honestly and saying it,
even if you don't fix itand you don't change it
and the abuser doesn't come back,at least you have empowered the victim.
(13:18):
At least you haven't empowered the abuser.
You haven't validated the abuser.
You haven't emboldened the abuser.
You've validated the victim,which is going to empower the victim.
You can continue seeing the victim.
You can help the victim become strongeragainst the abuse.
(13:38):
To set boundaries against it,to refuse to continue to tolerate it,
to require that the abuserget into therapy and make changes.
You can stop seeing both of them
and send them both to appropriate help,or you can continue seeing the victim.
Or you can tell the victim you need help.
You're abusive to the abuser,and I'll continue
(14:01):
working with you,but only if we confront the abuse.
As long as you're trained to do that.
Because it's not easy to deal with abusersand to get change in an abuser.
So you've got to be willing to do that.
You got to be willing to confront it.
You've got to be willing to validatethe victim and not validate the abuser.
(14:22):
So what are some benefitsof confronting the abuse?
Will the abuser without a faulty beliefsystem will change.
Sometimes you'll have abusewhere somebody is abusing
or acting in abusive ways
and has abusive behaviorsin a relationship,
not recognizing that they’re abusersmay be just doing what
(14:43):
the dad did or doing what the mom did,and not knowing that's abuse.
And yet, when you tell this personyour behavior is abusive,
you're doing what your dad did,what you saw your mom do, or what you saw.
Your mom do to your dad.
But that's not okay behavior for somebodywho doesn't have entrenched
(15:03):
belief systems that supportthe abusive behavior, they'll change.
They'll be appalled. They'll be like,are you kidding?
I don't want to be abusive.
I don't want to treat my wife that way.
If you get the abusers
attention, that doesn'thave those really faulty belief systems
that are that are so resistant to change,you'll get change.
(15:24):
So you have then actually made
significant impact in this relationship.
The abuser is directedto some type of individual therapy
that will focus on the abuseto possibly get change.
The victim is validated, as I said,and the victim
can go get appropriate help,which will actually support the victim
(15:47):
and hopefully the abuse will stop.
So if you want to make an impactwith couples
that have abuse in their relationship,the abuse must must be confronted.
Therapy for an abuse victim
has got to validateover and over and over again
that the behavior that is being anexperienced is abusive
(16:11):
because abuse victimswill doubt themselves and the abuser
blames the victim and abuse victimswill go right back
to that place of doubting,that place of self doubt,
that place of self question, that placeof feeling responsible for the abuse.
So abuse victims have to be validated
and educated about what abuse isand what the abuse tactics are.
(16:35):
You've got to be helpedto set enforceable boundaries
and there's a whole lot of workthat can be done with the abuse
victim in order to help the victim.
Okay, so I hope this has helped you.
It's basically the pitfallsof doing couples therapy
when abuse is present in the relationship.
I hope I've convinced you.
(16:55):
And again, I would recommendthat you, seek out the Mend project.
Mend project.
themendproject.com,founded by Annette Oltmans,
who deals with thiseven in more depth and helps
get you trained to deal effectivelywith abuse victims.
So thank you for watching
(17:18):
and if you want to know moreabout my ministry, Change My Relationship,
I hope that you will go to my websiteand check out my studies and my resources.
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
(17:38):
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
(17:59):
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
You're listening to an audio recordingby Change My Relationship, featuring
licensed marriage and family therapistand author Karla Downing.
These audios are designed to provide youwith practical solutions
based on biblical truthsfor all your relationships.
(00:20):
I want to talk to you
about whyyou should not do therapy with an abuser
and the abusers victim.
So, in other words,couple therapy typically.
When you find out there's abusein the relationship, why should you not
continue with the therapyor not continue with counseling.
(00:42):
If you are a coach,seeing the couple together,
if you are a mentor couple,that is, counseling couples.
If you are a ministry leader, a pastor,once you recognize or identify
that there is abuse, should you keepseeing this couple together?
And that is typically what people dois they think, okay, well, I'm I see this.
(01:07):
It might be abuse or it is abuse,but I'm going to kind of keep
seeing this couple together.
But the has quite a few pitfalls.
And I want to talk to you about whatthose are.
Well, the first one is that
therapy is supposed to be a safe space,safe space for everyone.
And, when you are in therapyand you are maintaining a safe space,
(01:31):
you technically typicallydo not judge or align
with one coupleor one one person of the couple.
And by saying basically in the
you're safe space where you're neutral,
you don't typically say to the abuserthe problems are caused by you.
(01:53):
We're going to focus on you.
We're not going to focuson the other person.
We're just going to focus on youbecause you are abusive.
We typically don't do that.
What we do iswe maintain a neutral stance.
We maintainthe thought that both of you are at fault.
Both of you have problems.
Both of you are going to be listened toand taken at your word.
(02:13):
Both of youare going to get a chance to complain.
Both of you are goingto, be believed when you do that
in a session or in a relationship with
a victim of abuse.
You hurt the victim.
You do what Annette Oltmans callsdouble abuse.
(02:35):
You abuse the person further
by not validating their painand validating the abuse,
you minimize the importance of the abuse.
So having that whole attitudeof what you're doing, normally
when you're counselinga couple is having a neutral, safe space
(02:56):
and assigning problemsto both of them is damaging.
The next one is vulnerability.
When you're asking an abuse victimto be vulnerable, vulnerable
in a session, in a counseling session,
or a meeting with the abuser,you're forgetting something.
That vulnerabilityis going to backfire on the victim.
(03:19):
That abuser is going to take that outon the victim.
They're going to be angry.
They're going to punish.
There's going to be a fightwhen they leave.
There's going to be repercussions
that's going to be thrown at the victimand used against the victim.
So this is dangerous to expect
(03:40):
or to ask an abuse victim to be vulnerable
in a room with the abuser
is is really not good.
The next oneis, assigning co responsibility
for marital problems,which validates the abusers perceptions.
I think I kind of alluded to thatwhen I was explaining the first one
(04:02):
about the safe, neutral space,
but I just wanted to say that, again,to make it very clear
that when you are assigninga Co-responsibility,
you are basically agreeingwith that abuser.
Yes, this is her fault.
This is the victim's faultor this is his fault.
There there is a reason why I abuse andI abuse because this person is imperfect.
(04:23):
Or this other person,the victim, causes me to do that.
And so it is harmful.
The next one is that it's very easyto get sidetracked
with details of complaintsand overlooking patterns.
So you might, again, allow an abuser
to spend the whole time complainingabout things that the victim has done.
(04:45):
And it's very easyto get bogged down in those details
and not recognize and get to the pointwhere you actually point out,
I'm sorry, this is abusive.This is not okay.
So by allowing this person to go on and onand on about those details
the whole time that these are being statedand you're listening
and nodding and hearingand maybe asking questions,
(05:07):
the victim is sitting there and saying,oh my gosh,
the abuser is is saying things
that I supposedly did thatI didn't do, or blaming me for things that
I'm only doing because
I'm like, totally traumatizedbecause of the abuse,
and you're listeningas though those are valid.
(05:29):
And again, by getting bogged downwith all those details,
you're hurting the, the victim.
The next one, is listening to the abusersfalse accusations,
because abusers will make actualfalse accusations
and accuse the victim of doing thingsthat the victim didn't do.
And the abuser might say, well, she's
cheating on meor is chronically complaining or is crazy
(05:54):
or is, doesn't do the things
that I'm asking to be done.
Whatever they are, the false accusations,and you're listening to them
because you're, again, coming fromthat stance where you have to hear
what this person has to say and hear.
The victim has to sit thereand listen to another person agree
(06:15):
with validity of the abusersfalse accusations.
The next one is that validatingthe abusers
feelings or beliefs further traumatizethe victim.
So the victim is hearing you validate
what the abuser is saying
that is felt or experienced,
(06:36):
and the victim is thinking I
these things are part of the abuseand these or these things are crazy.
These things aren't even real.
Or this person is mad at mebecause I'm not
automatically complying with demandsthat are crazy.
So whatever it is that's being said,by validating it,
(06:58):
you are traumatizing the victim further.
The next one is by overlooking abusepassively
as opposed to confronting it outwardly,actually colluding with the abuser.
So you are actually saying to the abuser,
yeah,you're telling me that you're abusive.
(07:18):
I'm going on as if you're not abusive.
That is not passive.
It is actually colluding with the abuser.
It feels passive to you, but it is not.
It is overlookingsomething that is very damaging.
And by doing that, you in the victim's
viewpoint, are colluding with the abuser
and not siding with the victimand in abuse.
(07:42):
You must side with and protect the victim,and you have to do that
by calling out the abuseand by confronting the abuse.
The next one is allowing the abuserto use covert,
emotionally abusive tacticson the therapist.
On the therapistwill traumatize the victim.
(08:04):
And what I mean by that is
the abuser is going to be manipulative
with the therapist or the pastor,or the minister or the other couple.
Maybe gaslighting,they maybe minimizing, maybe,
doing things that will cause youto question or discounting things.
(08:24):
And so allowing those to workand having the victim
see that those things are workingis, again, traumatizing the victim
because the victim once againfeels very powerless.
Feels like in this session, I'mtrying to get this person
who I see as my rescuer,the person that might be able to help me
(08:46):
and remember the victim is desperate andin a lot of pain and feels very powerless.
I'm hoping that this person will rescueme, and instead
I'm sitting hereand I'm seeing the abuser actually
take control and power over this personthat I was hoping to be my rescuer.
And now I feel really hopelessbecause the abuser,
(09:07):
and this happens a lot with narcissisticpeople who literally
can charm the therapist or the pastoror the person
and get that personto believe them over the victim
that is being abused in thenot by the narcissist,
and actually get that person to sidewith them,
but by using all of their covert tacticsthat he can manipulate and pressure
(09:31):
and get that therapistor the to side with them.
And then the next one isthat the abuser is emboldened
to continue the abuseby seeing the abuser in couples therapy
and by listening to both sides,the abusers thinking, I'm the same.
I'm the same as the victim.
I've got legitimate claims hereand the abuser is not softened by that.
(09:56):
The abuser is emboldened by that.
Like I somebody else agrees with methat the victim is wrong, that,
my wife isn't perfect,that my wife doesn't
listen to me,that my wife doesn't submit to me.
So these or my child isn't
is rebellious or my child isn't obedient.
(10:17):
So whatever it is, or that my parent is
just, you know, just needs to be honored,whatever it is.
Basically, the abuser is emboldenedwhen somebody listens to it and continues
as if it's not a problem and does notcall it out and give support to the victim
(10:39):
to help that victim gain some
power back against the abuser,then the abuser is emboldened.
The next one isthe victim is retraumatized.
So any of this that's going onis literally retraumatizing
and hurting a victim.
And if you know how much paina victim of abuse is in recognizing
(10:59):
that you're actually causing more painand hurting, that that victim
will hopefully cause you to want to become
more, able to respond appropriately,
to abuse when you see itand to recognize it to support victims.
Next one is the hesitancy to use labelsto describe behavior patterns.
(11:22):
So therapists, pastors, peoplethey don't like to tell people,
oh, you're narcissisticor you are an abuser.
So the hesitancy to do that, to say,I'm, I'm recognizing abuse here.
You are.
You are an abuser.
Is it takes a lot for peopleto get to that point.
And because of that,
seeing a couple togetherwhere there is abuse, knowing that
(11:45):
that's a really high barfor you to get to where
you would actually call out abuse meansthat you're going to be reluctant to do it
because nobody likes to do thatand wants to do that.
And then there's always a fear in couplestherapy, because remember, we're talking
about the pitfalls of couples therapywhen abuse is present in a couple,
(12:08):
the is the fear of alienating the abuserby confronting the abuse
because therapists, pastors, any personthat is trying to help a couple,
they don't want to alienateone of the two of the couple.
They want both of themto be willing to continue in therapy
and to continue listeningand to continue coming.
(12:31):
So they're not going to want to saystrong things to the abuser
and point out to the abuserthat's abusive, that's not okay.
Or to side very clearly with the victimover the abuser,
because they're going to be fearful.
If I do that, he's not going to come back,then he's not going to get help, then
he's not going to continue to be open,maybe to me telling him things.
(12:56):
So you're not going to confront it,and there are other ways to do this.
You can confront the abuse.
I see abuse here.
This is a clear abusive pattern.
By confronting it honestly and saying it,
even if you don't fix itand you don't change it
and the abuser doesn't come back,at least you have empowered the victim.
(13:18):
At least you haven't empowered the abuser.
You haven't validated the abuser.
You haven't emboldened the abuser.
You've validated the victim,which is going to empower the victim.
You can continue seeing the victim.
You can help the victim become strongeragainst the abuse.
(13:38):
To set boundaries against it,to refuse to continue to tolerate it,
to require that the abuserget into therapy and make changes.
You can stop seeing both of them
and send them both to appropriate help,or you can continue seeing the victim.
Or you can tell the victim you need help.
You're abusive to the abuser,and I'll continue
(14:01):
working with you,but only if we confront the abuse.
As long as you're trained to do that.
Because it's not easy to deal with abusersand to get change in an abuser.
So you've got to be willing to do that.
You got to be willing to confront it.
You've got to be willing to validatethe victim and not validate the abuser.
(14:22):
So what are some benefitsof confronting the abuse?
Will the abuser without a faulty beliefsystem will change.
Sometimes you'll have abusewhere somebody is abusing
or acting in abusive ways
and has abusive behaviorsin a relationship,
not recognizing that they’re abusersmay be just doing what
(14:43):
the dad did or doing what the mom did,and not knowing that's abuse.
And yet, when you tell this personyour behavior is abusive,
you're doing what your dad did,what you saw your mom do, or what you saw.
Your mom do to your dad.
But that's not okay behavior for somebodywho doesn't have entrenched
(15:03):
belief systems that supportthe abusive behavior, they'll change.
They'll be appalled. They'll be like,are you kidding?
I don't want to be abusive.
I don't want to treat my wife that way.
If you get the abusers
attention, that doesn'thave those really faulty belief systems
that are that are so resistant to change,you'll get change.
(15:24):
So you have then actually made
significant impact in this relationship.
The abuser is directedto some type of individual therapy
that will focus on the abuseto possibly get change.
The victim is validated, as I said,and the victim
can go get appropriate help,which will actually support the victim
(15:47):
and hopefully the abuse will stop.
So if you want to make an impactwith couples
that have abuse in their relationship,the abuse must must be confronted.
Therapy for an abuse victim
has got to validateover and over and over again
that the behavior that is being anexperienced is abusive
(16:11):
because abuse victimswill doubt themselves and the abuser
blames the victim and abuse victimswill go right back
to that place of doubting,that place of self doubt,
that place of self question, that placeof feeling responsible for the abuse.
So abuse victims have to be validated
and educated about what abuse isand what the abuse tactics are.
(16:35):
You've got to be helpedto set enforceable boundaries
and there's a whole lot of workthat can be done with the abuse
victim in order to help the victim.
Okay, so I hope this has helped you.
It's basically the pitfallsof doing couples therapy
when abuse is present in the relationship.
I hope I've convinced you.
(16:55):
And again, I would recommendthat you, seek out the Mend project.
Mend project.
themendproject.com,founded by Annette Oltmans,
who deals with thiseven in more depth and helps
get you trained to deal effectivelywith abuse victims.
So thank you for watching
(17:18):
and if you want to know moreabout my ministry, Change My Relationship,
I hope that you will go to my websiteand check out my studies and my resources.
God bless.
Thank you for listeningto Change My Relationship.
We hope you will subscribe to thesepodcasts and share them with your friends.
Karla would love to hear from you.
(17:38):
She welcomes ideas for a future podcast,as well as your feedback
on how the podcasts have helped your lifeand relationships.
You can email her at.
karla@changemyrelationship.com
For more informationon Change My Relationship and Karla
Downing's ministry, including her books,studies, devotionals, podcasts
(17:59):
and YouTube videosvisit changemyrelationship.com.
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