November 3, 2025 • 21 mins
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Ever wondered why kindergartners bubble with questions while high schoolers barely raise their hands? This episode will explore phenomena-based learning. We'll dive into how educators can reignite student curiosity by starting with observable events that naturally spark questions.
"Phenomena doesn't have to be phenomenal to be something," as Andrew Kuhn wisely puts it. Our conversation reveals how everyday occurrences – from melting ice cubes to America's Got Talent performances – can launch powerful learning journeys. We share practical strategies for implementing this approach without completely reinventing your teaching practice, acknowledging that "it's a journey and the journey has to start somewhere." Whether you're a classroom teacher wondering how to get started or an educational leader looking to transform professional development, we offer insights on finding resources, overcoming common challenges, and applying this mindset across all subject areas.
The most compelling aspect of phenomena-based learning may be its potential to reverse a troubling trend: research suggests that while kindergartners ask hundreds of questions daily, high schoolers ask just one question monthly. By creating space for curiosity and normalizing not having all the answers, we can help develop what were once called "soft skills" but are increasingly recognized as essential "power skills" for the 21st century. As one host (naturally everyone's favorite host) reflects, "I literally see the world this way now and I can't unsee it. I can't unbe interested, I can't unbe curious."
Ready to transform your approach to teaching and learning? Listen now, and don't forget to like, follow, and subscribe to join us on this continuing journey of educational innovation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back to Change Ed, the number one rated
podcast.
Wherever you are right now andyou're listening to it, and even
if it's not the number onerated one, there it is, it is.
It is somewhere.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm your host, andrew Kuhn, education consultant from
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit, here with me is Patrice
Semitrack, also out of theMontgomery County Intermediate
Unit, and I am still aneducation consultant.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And Tony Marabito from CLIU21SDF.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think for this episode, lady and gentleman, we
should pull out an oldie but agoodie, something we have not
talked about very much in awhile.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're going to do one that I wasn't allowed to be a
part of, that I'm allowed to bea part of now.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yes, yes, someone mute her mic please.
We should probably talk aboutrevisit fundamentally based
learning, because that is a hugepart of what we do and a huge
part of what we are embracingwith these standards and this
philosophy of education.
What I think is important aboutit is that we've talked a lot
(01:15):
about three-dimensional learning, and that is a huge part, but
your phenomenon is your key togetting started, your key to the
education, your drivingquestion yeah, and getting the
kids hooked.
How do we get students hookedand interested in what we're
doing?
So I'm interested to hear whatyou've seen over the last two
years when it comes tophenomenon or something that's
stuck with you, or what you seeis the big difference that maybe
(01:38):
we've never talked about before.
Those are three really bigquestions.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
You're welcome.
Maybe you should slow that down.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So one of the things that keeps coming up in my brain
is I did some really great workwith these teachers up in
Hattonburg, horsham.
Shout out to the Mad Hatters Atthe middle school level.
I think Chris talks about thison the episode that he was on
with us.
He talks about how they haveshifted to phenomena-based
learning.
They use a clip from America'sGot Talent and that's their
(02:03):
opening.
Yeah, and it's these two peoplethat are extremely flexible,
doing all kinds of crazy stuff,but then they get into a whole
unit on like bone structure andjoints and like what's going on
in your body while this ishappening, like to be able to
use something like that.
That's a it's maybe notculturally relevant.
Yeah, and but it's not like aphenomena that you would see
outside in the wild, necessarily, because they're doing a
(02:24):
performance, but at the sametime, it's still a phenomena
happening.
So I think the cool thing tothink about when we're talking
about phenomena-based learningis that it doesn't necessarily
always have to be something yousee outside.
Phenomena is happening allaround us.
Phenomena can be ice melting ona table versus ice melting on a
paper towel.
That in itself is a phenomena.
(02:44):
So when we're thinking aboutphenomena-based learning, the
cool thing for me in therealization was it's literally
happening everywhere, and itdoesn't have to be.
To quote the great Andrew Kuhn,phenomena doesn't have to be
phenomenal to be something.
So I think that one of thebigger shifts for me this year
and when I'm talking to teachersand helping them move into this
way of thinking, is it'sliterally all around you.
(03:06):
And how can you use somethinginteresting like the agt clip or
mundane like ice melting on atable to bring kids into
understanding what's happeningon multiple levels?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
yeah, I think it goes back to teaching kids how to
think again, rather than justbeing lectured to.
What causes this.
Why does this happen?
Allowing for the questions,Exactly right.
Let the phenomenon guide thecontent, Starting off with
something, maybe even some localcontext obviously AGT not
necessarily local, but could beif they were local people but
more about the actual phenomenon, more about getting kids to be
(03:37):
curious about something.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
The thing, too, that Andrew and I had started at some
point, and we haven't reallyput much into it lately but like
we'll be out with our familiesand we'll be like, oh, this is a
really cool thing that'shappening.
So we're taking a picture and wehave like pictures just
everywhere in Google folders ofthings that we see when we're
out.
That could be potentially usedas phenomenon to kick you into
some deeper learning and somedeeper understanding, or even
(04:01):
just why is this even happening,and then we can start moving
into explaining or diving intothe exploration behind why it's
happening.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I promise I won't be that guy that all of season
three.
But referencing back to my trip, but it's a recent experience.
Everything like in America.
The oldest thing we have likein Pennsylvania is what?
200 years old Yep Right.
So I'm walking around buildingsthat are built in BC times,
thousands of years, and, ofcourse, going back to AI, chat,
gpting why was this built likethis?
(04:30):
Or what was this used for?
Or you know how?
Why did they put water in theColiseum?
And you know practice navalstrategies, things like that,
why something happens?
Just being curious.
I think that happens to us inour everyday lives and I think
if we can get kids to be curious, then it can take that mundane
ice and turn into something thatthey can connect it to.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But we've schooled the questioning out of them.
We need to put that back intothere, because I'll forever
quote Ken Robinson.
He is quoting a study, butkindergartners ask hundreds of
questions a day and by the timethey hit high school it's one
question a month.
So what are we doing?
Is it that we're living intothe knowing, or is it that just
naturally we have more answers,therefore we ask less questions,
(05:10):
or we think we have moreanswers, therefore we ask less
questions?
I mean, there's a lot offactors that can go into it and
you know how research can bere-skewed a little bit, but the
idea is still there that wedon't necessarily allow time for
the question, and introducing aphenomena in a way that might
seem intriguing could be a wayof reintroducing the questions.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Working with teachers this year.
I think where they'restruggling and myself where I
struggle is how do I take thisstuff that I've been teaching
for years and how do I eitheradd an anchoring phenomena to it
or constantly relate back tothis anchoring phenomena?
I think that's where thestruggle is.
I think everybody wants to todo it.
I think they're excited to getkids excited about learning.
Where do I find them?
But where do I?
Where do I find them?
How do I start?
(05:50):
How do I take what I'm alreadydoing and not having to, like
you know, reinvent the wheelhere, yeah, but also apply it to
and spend hours findingsomething.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah the reality is is that there's something
available for everybody, nomatter where they are on this
phenomenon spectrum.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I like that term.
We haven't talked about thephenomenon spectrum yet.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, copyrighted.
I'm thinking, for someindividuals who understand the
concept enough and are ready torock and roll, that this is a
time to tie in other episodesthat we've had, that you sit
down and have a conversationwith AI and say what would be
some phenomenon to help meexplain this concept or to get
this concept, because I've heardyou say that it's a thought
partner for you or you'relooking for a spark.
If you're looking for a spark,there's a lot of ways to get
that, but if you're not alreadygoing to AI, that's yet another
(06:36):
hurdle for you to overcome.
I have to start working withthat before I can go there.
There are a lot of greatresources, and the thing that we
benefit from in Pennsylvania isthat this mindset has been
around for over 10 years, sowe're essentially late to the
game, but the benefit for us isthat there are a lot of
resources that are alreadyavailable.
Some you pay for, some youdon't those also, the biggest
(07:00):
difference is again the sameidea of like if you know what
you're looking for, you can gochat with AI.
If you know what you're doing,maybe paying for something isn't
a top priority.
You just need that spark ofcuriosity or that spark of
inspiration Copilot, if you will, yeah, to get you started.
But if you feel like a deer inthe headlights when you're
looking at this stuff, then youwant something where you're like
(07:23):
I know a team has sat down anddesigned this specifically for
my third grade kids and you canplug and play.
I philosophically do notbelieve that any of those are
meant to be a lifelongcommitment.
This is where I'm at in thisjourney.
Now Let me get started, butthen my job is to customize it
for the students that are infront of me.
(07:44):
And if we're really living intoSteeles, which is supposed to
be localized, okay, I'm going touse this larger curriculum.
But then how do I start to tiein that local component to where
maybe I can find thisphenomenon happening right here
in this area, and then we cancreate a field trip or we can do
all sorts of things.
So I think it's a journey andthe journey has to start
(08:05):
somewhere.
So asking for help is whatyou're supposed to do.
You ask for help, you look forresources.
How can I find to do this?
Because I don't know what I'mdoing yet.
But then, as you learn whatyou're doing, that's when you
can transition and start to moveaway from resources and start
to move to independence, or evencoaching and helping and
supporting others, because trulythe best way to learn something
(08:26):
is to actually teach it.
And so, right, the best way totry with phenomenon is and now,
let me bring along somebody andwork with them, or, if there's
somebody in your school who getsit, start having conversation
with them.
Ask those questions.
One of the biggest disserviceswe we've done in education is by
focusing so much on knowingwe're afraid to ask other people
questions, because then theyknow that we don't know, but we
(08:47):
already don't know.
So we're just admitting I haveno idea.
I love this idea.
Help me get this.
Help me do this, because Ireally believe in this.
But then, whatever the reasonis, when we don't do that, then
we stunt our own group, whichimpacts others.
That was really well said.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So that was 10 minutes and we're done.
That's actually about as longas what you guys were putting
out originally, if I'm beingreal.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
A question I'd like to pose to both of you when it
comes to phenomenon, because ourjobs are not in the classroom,
because our work is different.
We are engaging educators.
It can often be hard for us tomodel.
This is what phenomenon-basedlearning would look like for you
in your classroom.
This is what phenomenon-basedlearning would look like for you
in your classroom.
However, I have completelyembraced this when it comes to
(09:30):
my practice and the work that Ido and the way that we market.
We are embracingphenomenon-based learning, like
how can we get you hooked andinterested in what we're going
to be talking about, somethingthat doesn't have all the
answers?
So you're like I'm going therefor the answer.
I'm like I want to know moreabout that.
(09:51):
So we're providing that hookeven in the way that we run
events and the way we runactivities and the way that we
anything that we do now is allbased around this or adapting it
to our craft versus a classroom.
So my, my wondering is for eachof you do you feel the same way
and if so, what does that looklike for you and your practice?
You do you feel the same wayand if so, what does that look
like for you in your practice.
How have you embraced?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
this type of style, this phenomenon-based learning
in your craft to engage others.
So funny you mentioned this.
Now, going into the next schoolyear, our IU, at CLIU 21, we
are going to be working with aNovaMAT, which is a completely
not science related.
It's a math program fromoverseas, from Barcelona.
Anyway, it was a group ofengineers that just loved the
math so much and wanted to teachit to kids and try to get kids
to think about math.
So we did four sessions lastyear.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I heard about them.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We did four sessions last year and every session was
packed 40 people each and sowe're bringing it back again
this year.
We're going to do a train thetrainer I will be the trainer,
which is cool because I wentthrough it last year and then
they're going to do a secondedition for those that really
wanted to do a deep dive.
It's built in part with PeterI'm going to say his last name,
wrong.
There we go, thank you.
That's why you're the bestbuilding thinking classrooms and
(10:59):
just again teaching kids how tothink, as opposed to just
sitting there mimicking Right.
So I think this is the perfectkind of connection and time to
bring this up, since we'reshifting and now math and we
just did the shift in science.
Bottom line is we just have toget kids to think again.
So I think that's the perfectkind of leeway.
I completely forgot about yourquestion that you asked me.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
using this kind of?
How are you using?
So just reading that book?
Doing a book study this summer,I learned bits and pieces of
how to get people to learn justby having them move or having
them grouped a certain way, likejust little things that I was
doing in the classroom already,but now I'm going to start doing
in my PDs to model for themjust pieces of this book, and I
think there's these littlechanges that we can make to just
help people think better andthen help them understand and
(11:39):
then engage in things likephenomena-based learning or just
thinking at the beginning of amath class.
So we're starting, instead ofwith a phenomena or an anchoring
phenomena, we're starting witha thinking question.
So not just your what's fivetimes five, but here's 25.
Give me all the add-ins, orgive me all the numbers you can
add together to reach 25,including decimals, you know if
they, if they, run out.
So just getting kids to thinkright off the bat and then
(12:01):
getting into content.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, I've been noticing the way that I plan.
I plan differently, I planaround.
This is probably because we doalmost all of our planning
together, but we tend to planaround what is the anchoring
concept that we're doing in thischunk and then how is it all
interconnected along the way?
So we definitely try to thinkabout it from that perspective
in terms of we need to keepcoming back to something.
It makes sense to keep comingback to this concept, and if
(12:23):
this is the main concept for theday or for the hour or whatever
, then we need to keep somehowbringing people back to it.
So, thinking about them to yourpoint, thinking first I want
you to do something that's goingto make your brain hurt a
little, and then I'm going tomake some connections to it, so
that way it sticks.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I think that's why trivia is fun.
I think that's why adults findtrivia.
Well, most adults find triviafun because it's outside their
normal zone.
I Adults find trivia Well, mostadults find trivia fun because
it's outside their normal zone.
I hate it.
Yeah, that's fine, maybe I justlove trivia.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
No, no, no, I know you love trivia, but like I
don't like it because I don'tfeel like I know enough of that
stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I mean you're talking to me.
I don't know half of it, butthat's not true.
But whatever, I enjoy learningabout these facts and it
actually makes me think.
So that's why I have to go downinto the depths of my now
Depths of what you know.
It makes you think a little bit, and then you can.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It does make you think.
Maybe that's why I don't likeit.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
When I started this job four years ago, part of this
job was that you're going tohave to run an all day training.
The thought of doing that wasso overwhelming because I like
to be a very matter of fact likehere's what you need to know.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
If we can't talk about it within an hour.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, I don't want to talk about it if we can't solve
it in an hour.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, like sorry folks, it's pretty cut and dry.
Here it is, and this frameworkhas given me the ability to look
at it differently, to say thisis again.
This is a journey.
This is not here's theinformation done, it's a how do
we get you to go on this so thatyou have the room and the space
to expand your thinking, tothen actually come to the
(13:51):
conclusion on your own, and then, towards the end, I'll say and
here are some of the key partsof this that you need to
consider, I would actually evensay the way that we go about
podcasting allows for that aswell, because we're making a
conversational, we're not sayinghere's the answer.
We have three differentexperiences and three different
perspectives that we're offering.
But also we will ask questions.
I mean, there are so manythings that I want to say about,
(14:13):
let's just say, ai and myphilosophy on AI, but me
throwing out just my philosophydoesn't expand me as a learner.
So I'm going to ask questionsand say, well, what do you guys
think, where are you at withthat?
And then I'll throw mine in.
But even in doing so and whenwe had these conversations we're
usually adding to what somebodyelse has already said right.
(14:34):
So this has been a phenomenalplatform for us to engage in
phenomenon-based learning andsay I can squeeze it in here.
Here is this topic and we don'tknow where it's going to go.
We just kind of put that outthere and we all come to it with
our own wonderings andperspective and interest and
ideas and then it becomessomething.
And I think that was one of ourbiggest obstacles when it came
(14:56):
to podcasting was feeling likewe had to when we started this.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, two years ago that we had to come in here,
scripted, we had to come in herewith all the answers because we
were acting like the expertsand what has evolved to is that
we don't have any answers.
There's nothing written down.
We're just having thisconversation and it's genuine,
it's authentic, it's in themoment.
But I think that's the powerfor us is that we don't claim to
(15:20):
have the answers.
We want to have theconversations.
When our listener is takingthis in, they can hear where we
are and relate to any one of thethree of us or even our guests.
They can relate to our guestsand say that really makes sense.
I like that, but it doesn'thave to be any one of us.
Which I feel like is the powerof even phenomenon-based
learning, creating that space,intentionally creating an area
(15:42):
and creating time, even thoughthat's the biggest squeeze and
will continue forever be thebiggest squeeze in public
education, is time.
How do we create space and timefor you to be able to wonder
and to be curious?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about real quickly
on the PDE SAS.
Maybe we can put the link inour description of the episode.
But they have a newcommunication toolkit and on
that toolkit it talks aboutSteeles 101.
A lot of teachers have beentrained.
Now they go into administratorreference guides, they go into a
parent's new learning goals forK2, 3, 5, 6, 8.
So they're really trying to getthe message out there of why
(16:14):
this learning is taking placeand why this shift.
So again underneath thecommunications toolkit on PDE
SAS, steels Hub, some great infothere.
Maybe we can do an episodelater on dive in a little bit
deeper great idea and maybe seethe people who were.
I'll find out who was a part ofit, yeah, and who created it.
But it's some really greatcontent there and it kind of
explains the why behind theshift thank you, tony.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
There we go.
All right, folks, it'severyone's favorite time of the
episode when we have our secondand third when andrew wraps it
up when it's over over, that'sthe favorite part.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
When it's done, it's done so.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Tony Arbito, please give us your words of wisdom
when it comes to finalizedlearning.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Give it a shot.
Kids will be interested andcurious if you give them
something to be curious about.
So, instead of just the lecture, which lecturing still, there's
still time and time in placefor that, for sure.
But give them something to becurious about, because that will
grab their attention and carrythem to that class.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Nice, it's my turn.
I didn't say this before, butwhen we plan, I like to stick to
the mindset of you learnsomething and you do something.
And I think thatphenomena-based learning really
lends itself to this idea of I'mgoing to first come up with my
driving question, or I'm goingto figure out my phenomena and
I'm going to learn somethingabout it, then I'm going to do
(17:27):
something with it, then I'mgoing to keep this cycle going
as long as I can to make surethat I come back to that
original driving question orinitial phenomena to really
understand the concept.
And that ties into thecross-cutting concepts and the
DCIs that go along with them.
So I think, if you can be ofthe mindset of learn something,
(17:49):
do something that you'll getpretty far.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Phenomenal based learning, to me, is about
changing the way that you seethe world, and not even just
putting on glasses and seeing itdifferently.
But to me this is maybe goingto sound a little drastic, but
it's almost like having LASIKeye surgery.
You're literally changing theshape of the way that the lens
that you use to look ateducation and look at the world.
And the strength ofphenomenon-based learning is
that it's for me, it's not justlimited to science, it's the way
(18:11):
that now I see every part of mypractice and I can implement it
across content areas.
It's not just based off of onecontent area.
I can use it and apply itanywhere.
And it's about empowering thelearner and engaging them in
curiosity, allowing them to becurious, allowing them to ask
those questions Again thatsocially we've now.
We're fearful to say I don'tknow the answer, I'm afraid Let
(18:35):
me go, let me go Google itbefore I give you the actual
answer.
And so we're empoweringstudents to say it's okay, right
, and let's give it a shot,let's throw out some hypotheses.
We have to demonstrate thatfirst, and we have to create
that space, and it's a verydifferent space, and so we also
need to allow ourselves grace indoing that and know that it is
a transition.
Every transition is going tohave hiccups.
(18:57):
Every transition is going tohave challenges.
It is not going to work the wayyou think it will work on the
very first try and not going towork the way you think it will
work on the very first try.
And you'll think, oh my gosh,this is going to take me three
hours and that lesson ends uptaking 35 minutes.
And you're like now, what do Ido for the next two hours and 25
minutes?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Right, We've never had that happen.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That will happen.
It will happen a lot, andthat's where our skillset comes
in, because we know how tostretch things out.
We know how to bring them backtogether.
So be courageous, give it ashot, give it a try and allow it
to impact you and your practice, but also your life.
Again, I can't take off myphenomena-based glasses because
I don't have phenomena-basedlearning glasses.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I literally I thought you were going to say your
phenomena-based beard.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I literally that's gone.
I literally see the world thisway now and I can't unsee it.
I can't unbe interested, Ican't unbe curious.
Yesterday a helicopter flewover my house and my kids were
like Whoa, and they just werelike in awe, trying to like ask
questions and you know what doyou think it is and what do you
(20:01):
think it does, Like they were inthat space.
And I know a lot of timesthey'll come to me and be like
dad, what is this?
Could be anything?
And I'll say you know what Ithink this I don't actually know
, let's figure it out.
So that in itself is such ashift from I remember going to
my parents and they had theanswers what is this?
Why does somebody do that?
Why would somebody vote thisway about this?
(20:22):
And they would have you knowtheir answers, versus being able
to say there's a lot of reasonspeople could do that.
Why don't we?
Why don't we explore it alittle bit?
Let's figure it out, and figureout who you are as a person and
what you value and what youcare about, versus me saying
here's my reason I care about,here's why someone might do this
or that, and we don't alwaysknow.
So this is allowing space andtime for us to be part of the
(20:46):
molding of human beings.
One thing that we talk about somuch is soft skills.
They used to be called softskills the how to be a person.
21st century, those are nowpower skills and they're so
important, and this is one ofthe ways that we can help create
those and generate those byputting them in this space, in
the unknown, into the unknown.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Wow, that's something we didn't need.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It's staying, though, as always.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
thank you for tuning in and listening and don't
forget to like, follow andsubscribe.
Your favorite podcast helps usget to 15 billion downloads.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
By the end of season three.
Yes, 15 billion, To quote thegreat, great great Andrew Kuhn.
Phenomena doesn't have to bephenomenal to be something.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That was really well said, that was really well said
Welcome back to Change Ed, the number one rated
podcast.
Wherever you are right now andyou're listening to it, and even
if it's not the number onerated one, there it is, it is.
It is somewhere.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm your host, andrew Kuhn, education consultant from
Montgomery County IntermediateUnit, here with me is Patrice
Semitrack, also out of theMontgomery County Intermediate
Unit, and I am still aneducation consultant.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
And Tony Marabito from CLIU21SDF.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think for this episode, lady and gentleman, we
should pull out an oldie but agoodie, something we have not
talked about very much in awhile.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're going to do one that I wasn't allowed to be a
part of, that I'm allowed to bea part of now.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yes, yes, someone mute her mic please.
We should probably talk aboutrevisit fundamentally based
learning, because that is a hugepart of what we do and a huge
part of what we are embracingwith these standards and this
philosophy of education.
What I think is important aboutit is that we've talked a lot
(01:15):
about three-dimensional learning, and that is a huge part, but
your phenomenon is your key togetting started, your key to the
education, your drivingquestion yeah, and getting the
kids hooked.
How do we get students hookedand interested in what we're
doing?
So I'm interested to hear whatyou've seen over the last two
years when it comes tophenomenon or something that's
stuck with you, or what you seeis the big difference that maybe
(01:38):
we've never talked about before.
Those are three really bigquestions.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
You're welcome.
Maybe you should slow that down.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So one of the things that keeps coming up in my brain
is I did some really great workwith these teachers up in
Hattonburg, horsham.
Shout out to the Mad Hatters Atthe middle school level.
I think Chris talks about thison the episode that he was on
with us.
He talks about how they haveshifted to phenomena-based
learning.
They use a clip from America'sGot Talent and that's their
(02:03):
opening.
Yeah, and it's these two peoplethat are extremely flexible,
doing all kinds of crazy stuff,but then they get into a whole
unit on like bone structure andjoints and like what's going on
in your body while this ishappening, like to be able to
use something like that.
That's a it's maybe notculturally relevant.
Yeah, and but it's not like aphenomena that you would see
outside in the wild, necessarily, because they're doing a
(02:24):
performance, but at the sametime, it's still a phenomena
happening.
So I think the cool thing tothink about when we're talking
about phenomena-based learningis that it doesn't necessarily
always have to be something yousee outside.
Phenomena is happening allaround us.
Phenomena can be ice melting ona table versus ice melting on a
paper towel.
That in itself is a phenomena.
(02:44):
So when we're thinking aboutphenomena-based learning, the
cool thing for me in therealization was it's literally
happening everywhere, and itdoesn't have to be.
To quote the great Andrew Kuhn,phenomena doesn't have to be
phenomenal to be something.
So I think that one of thebigger shifts for me this year
and when I'm talking to teachersand helping them move into this
way of thinking, is it'sliterally all around you.
(03:06):
And how can you use somethinginteresting like the agt clip or
mundane like ice melting on atable to bring kids into
understanding what's happeningon multiple levels?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
yeah, I think it goes back to teaching kids how to
think again, rather than justbeing lectured to.
What causes this.
Why does this happen?
Allowing for the questions,Exactly right.
Let the phenomenon guide thecontent, Starting off with
something, maybe even some localcontext obviously AGT not
necessarily local, but could beif they were local people but
more about the actual phenomenon, more about getting kids to be
(03:37):
curious about something.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
The thing, too, that Andrew and I had started at some
point, and we haven't reallyput much into it lately but like
we'll be out with our familiesand we'll be like, oh, this is a
really cool thing that'shappening.
So we're taking a picture and wehave like pictures just
everywhere in Google folders ofthings that we see when we're
out.
That could be potentially usedas phenomenon to kick you into
some deeper learning and somedeeper understanding, or even
(04:01):
just why is this even happening,and then we can start moving
into explaining or diving intothe exploration behind why it's
happening.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I promise I won't be that guy that all of season
three.
But referencing back to my trip, but it's a recent experience.
Everything like in America.
The oldest thing we have likein Pennsylvania is what?
200 years old Yep Right.
So I'm walking around buildingsthat are built in BC times,
thousands of years, and, ofcourse, going back to AI, chat,
gpting why was this built likethis?
(04:30):
Or what was this used for?
Or you know how?
Why did they put water in theColiseum?
And you know practice navalstrategies, things like that,
why something happens?
Just being curious.
I think that happens to us inour everyday lives and I think
if we can get kids to be curious, then it can take that mundane
ice and turn into something thatthey can connect it to.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
But we've schooled the questioning out of them.
We need to put that back intothere, because I'll forever
quote Ken Robinson.
He is quoting a study, butkindergartners ask hundreds of
questions a day and by the timethey hit high school it's one
question a month.
So what are we doing?
Is it that we're living intothe knowing, or is it that just
naturally we have more answers,therefore we ask less questions,
(05:10):
or we think we have moreanswers, therefore we ask less
questions?
I mean, there's a lot offactors that can go into it and
you know how research can bere-skewed a little bit, but the
idea is still there that wedon't necessarily allow time for
the question, and introducing aphenomena in a way that might
seem intriguing could be a wayof reintroducing the questions.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Working with teachers this year.
I think where they'restruggling and myself where I
struggle is how do I take thisstuff that I've been teaching
for years and how do I eitheradd an anchoring phenomena to it
or constantly relate back tothis anchoring phenomena?
I think that's where thestruggle is.
I think everybody wants to todo it.
I think they're excited to getkids excited about learning.
Where do I find them?
But where do I?
Where do I find them?
How do I start?
(05:50):
How do I take what I'm alreadydoing and not having to, like
you know, reinvent the wheelhere, yeah, but also apply it to
and spend hours findingsomething.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah the reality is is that there's something
available for everybody, nomatter where they are on this
phenomenon spectrum.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I like that term.
We haven't talked about thephenomenon spectrum yet.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, copyrighted.
I'm thinking, for someindividuals who understand the
concept enough and are ready torock and roll, that this is a
time to tie in other episodesthat we've had, that you sit
down and have a conversationwith AI and say what would be
some phenomenon to help meexplain this concept or to get
this concept, because I've heardyou say that it's a thought
partner for you or you'relooking for a spark.
If you're looking for a spark,there's a lot of ways to get
that, but if you're not alreadygoing to AI, that's yet another
(06:36):
hurdle for you to overcome.
I have to start working withthat before I can go there.
There are a lot of greatresources, and the thing that we
benefit from in Pennsylvania isthat this mindset has been
around for over 10 years, sowe're essentially late to the
game, but the benefit for us isthat there are a lot of
resources that are alreadyavailable.
Some you pay for, some youdon't those also, the biggest
(07:00):
difference is again the sameidea of like if you know what
you're looking for, you can gochat with AI.
If you know what you're doing,maybe paying for something isn't
a top priority.
You just need that spark ofcuriosity or that spark of
inspiration Copilot, if you will, yeah, to get you started.
But if you feel like a deer inthe headlights when you're
looking at this stuff, then youwant something where you're like
(07:23):
I know a team has sat down anddesigned this specifically for
my third grade kids and you canplug and play.
I philosophically do notbelieve that any of those are
meant to be a lifelongcommitment.
This is where I'm at in thisjourney.
Now Let me get started, butthen my job is to customize it
for the students that are infront of me.
(07:44):
And if we're really living intoSteeles, which is supposed to
be localized, okay, I'm going touse this larger curriculum.
But then how do I start to tiein that local component to where
maybe I can find thisphenomenon happening right here
in this area, and then we cancreate a field trip or we can do
all sorts of things.
So I think it's a journey andthe journey has to start
(08:05):
somewhere.
So asking for help is whatyou're supposed to do.
You ask for help, you look forresources.
How can I find to do this?
Because I don't know what I'mdoing yet.
But then, as you learn whatyou're doing, that's when you
can transition and start to moveaway from resources and start
to move to independence, or evencoaching and helping and
supporting others, because trulythe best way to learn something
(08:26):
is to actually teach it.
And so, right, the best way totry with phenomenon is and now,
let me bring along somebody andwork with them, or, if there's
somebody in your school who getsit, start having conversation
with them.
Ask those questions.
One of the biggest disserviceswe we've done in education is by
focusing so much on knowingwe're afraid to ask other people
questions, because then theyknow that we don't know, but we
(08:47):
already don't know.
So we're just admitting I haveno idea.
I love this idea.
Help me get this.
Help me do this, because Ireally believe in this.
But then, whatever the reasonis, when we don't do that, then
we stunt our own group, whichimpacts others.
That was really well said.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So that was 10 minutes and we're done.
That's actually about as longas what you guys were putting
out originally, if I'm beingreal.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
A question I'd like to pose to both of you when it
comes to phenomenon, because ourjobs are not in the classroom,
because our work is different.
We are engaging educators.
It can often be hard for us tomodel.
This is what phenomenon-basedlearning would look like for you
in your classroom.
This is what phenomenon-basedlearning would look like for you
in your classroom.
However, I have completelyembraced this when it comes to
(09:30):
my practice and the work that Ido and the way that we market.
We are embracingphenomenon-based learning, like
how can we get you hooked andinterested in what we're going
to be talking about, somethingthat doesn't have all the
answers?
So you're like I'm going therefor the answer.
I'm like I want to know moreabout that.
(09:51):
So we're providing that hookeven in the way that we run
events and the way we runactivities and the way that we
anything that we do now is allbased around this or adapting it
to our craft versus a classroom.
So my, my wondering is for eachof you do you feel the same way
and if so, what does that looklike for you and your practice?
You do you feel the same wayand if so, what does that look
like for you in your practice.
How have you embraced?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
this type of style, this phenomenon-based learning
in your craft to engage others.
So funny you mentioned this.
Now, going into the next schoolyear, our IU, at CLIU 21, we
are going to be working with aNovaMAT, which is a completely
not science related.
It's a math program fromoverseas, from Barcelona.
Anyway, it was a group ofengineers that just loved the
math so much and wanted to teachit to kids and try to get kids
to think about math.
So we did four sessions lastyear.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I heard about them.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We did four sessions last year and every session was
packed 40 people each and sowe're bringing it back again
this year.
We're going to do a train thetrainer I will be the trainer,
which is cool because I wentthrough it last year and then
they're going to do a secondedition for those that really
wanted to do a deep dive.
It's built in part with PeterI'm going to say his last name,
wrong.
There we go, thank you.
That's why you're the bestbuilding thinking classrooms and
(10:59):
just again teaching kids how tothink, as opposed to just
sitting there mimicking Right.
So I think this is the perfectkind of connection and time to
bring this up, since we'reshifting and now math and we
just did the shift in science.
Bottom line is we just have toget kids to think again.
So I think that's the perfectkind of leeway.
I completely forgot about yourquestion that you asked me.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
using this kind of?
How are you using?
So just reading that book?
Doing a book study this summer,I learned bits and pieces of
how to get people to learn justby having them move or having
them grouped a certain way, likejust little things that I was
doing in the classroom already,but now I'm going to start doing
in my PDs to model for themjust pieces of this book, and I
think there's these littlechanges that we can make to just
help people think better andthen help them understand and
(11:39):
then engage in things likephenomena-based learning or just
thinking at the beginning of amath class.
So we're starting, instead ofwith a phenomena or an anchoring
phenomena, we're starting witha thinking question.
So not just your what's fivetimes five, but here's 25.
Give me all the add-ins, orgive me all the numbers you can
add together to reach 25,including decimals, you know if
they, if they, run out.
So just getting kids to thinkright off the bat and then
(12:01):
getting into content.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, I've been noticing the way that I plan.
I plan differently, I planaround.
This is probably because we doalmost all of our planning
together, but we tend to planaround what is the anchoring
concept that we're doing in thischunk and then how is it all
interconnected along the way?
So we definitely try to thinkabout it from that perspective
in terms of we need to keepcoming back to something.
It makes sense to keep comingback to this concept, and if
(12:23):
this is the main concept for theday or for the hour or whatever
, then we need to keep somehowbringing people back to it.
So, thinking about them to yourpoint, thinking first I want
you to do something that's goingto make your brain hurt a
little, and then I'm going tomake some connections to it, so
that way it sticks.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I think that's why trivia is fun.
I think that's why adults findtrivia.
Well, most adults find triviafun because it's outside their
normal zone.
I Adults find trivia Well, mostadults find trivia fun because
it's outside their normal zone.
I hate it.
Yeah, that's fine, maybe I justlove trivia.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
No, no, no, I know you love trivia, but like I
don't like it because I don'tfeel like I know enough of that
stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
I mean you're talking to me.
I don't know half of it, butthat's not true.
But whatever, I enjoy learningabout these facts and it
actually makes me think.
So that's why I have to go downinto the depths of my now
Depths of what you know.
It makes you think a little bit, and then you can.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
It does make you think.
Maybe that's why I don't likeit.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
When I started this job four years ago, part of this
job was that you're going tohave to run an all day training.
The thought of doing that wasso overwhelming because I like
to be a very matter of fact likehere's what you need to know.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
If we can't talk about it within an hour.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, I don't want to talk about it if we can't solve
it in an hour.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, like sorry folks, it's pretty cut and dry.
Here it is, and this frameworkhas given me the ability to look
at it differently, to say thisis again.
This is a journey.
This is not here's theinformation done, it's a how do
we get you to go on this so thatyou have the room and the space
to expand your thinking, tothen actually come to the
(13:51):
conclusion on your own, and then, towards the end, I'll say and
here are some of the key partsof this that you need to
consider, I would actually evensay the way that we go about
podcasting allows for that aswell, because we're making a
conversational, we're not sayinghere's the answer.
We have three differentexperiences and three different
perspectives that we're offering.
But also we will ask questions.
I mean, there are so manythings that I want to say about,
(14:13):
let's just say, ai and myphilosophy on AI, but me
throwing out just my philosophydoesn't expand me as a learner.
So I'm going to ask questionsand say, well, what do you guys
think, where are you at withthat?
And then I'll throw mine in.
But even in doing so and whenwe had these conversations we're
usually adding to what somebodyelse has already said right.
(14:34):
So this has been a phenomenalplatform for us to engage in
phenomenon-based learning andsay I can squeeze it in here.
Here is this topic and we don'tknow where it's going to go.
We just kind of put that outthere and we all come to it with
our own wonderings andperspective and interest and
ideas and then it becomessomething.
And I think that was one of ourbiggest obstacles when it came
(14:56):
to podcasting was feeling likewe had to when we started this.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, two years ago that we had to come in here,
scripted, we had to come in herewith all the answers because we
were acting like the expertsand what has evolved to is that
we don't have any answers.
There's nothing written down.
We're just having thisconversation and it's genuine,
it's authentic, it's in themoment.
But I think that's the powerfor us is that we don't claim to
(15:20):
have the answers.
We want to have theconversations.
When our listener is takingthis in, they can hear where we
are and relate to any one of thethree of us or even our guests.
They can relate to our guestsand say that really makes sense.
I like that, but it doesn'thave to be any one of us.
Which I feel like is the powerof even phenomenon-based
learning, creating that space,intentionally creating an area
(15:42):
and creating time, even thoughthat's the biggest squeeze and
will continue forever be thebiggest squeeze in public
education, is time.
How do we create space and timefor you to be able to wonder
and to be curious?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about real quickly
on the PDE SAS.
Maybe we can put the link inour description of the episode.
But they have a newcommunication toolkit and on
that toolkit it talks aboutSteeles 101.
A lot of teachers have beentrained.
Now they go into administratorreference guides, they go into a
parent's new learning goals forK2, 3, 5, 6, 8.
So they're really trying to getthe message out there of why
(16:14):
this learning is taking placeand why this shift.
So again underneath thecommunications toolkit on PDE
SAS, steels Hub, some great infothere.
Maybe we can do an episodelater on dive in a little bit
deeper great idea and maybe seethe people who were.
I'll find out who was a part ofit, yeah, and who created it.
But it's some really greatcontent there and it kind of
explains the why behind theshift thank you, tony.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
There we go.
All right, folks, it'severyone's favorite time of the
episode when we have our secondand third when andrew wraps it
up when it's over over, that'sthe favorite part.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
When it's done, it's done so.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Tony Arbito, please give us your words of wisdom
when it comes to finalizedlearning.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Give it a shot.
Kids will be interested andcurious if you give them
something to be curious about.
So, instead of just the lecture, which lecturing still, there's
still time and time in placefor that, for sure.
But give them something to becurious about, because that will
grab their attention and carrythem to that class.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Nice, it's my turn.
I didn't say this before, butwhen we plan, I like to stick to
the mindset of you learnsomething and you do something.
And I think thatphenomena-based learning really
lends itself to this idea of I'mgoing to first come up with my
driving question, or I'm goingto figure out my phenomena and
I'm going to learn somethingabout it, then I'm going to do
(17:27):
something with it, then I'mgoing to keep this cycle going
as long as I can to make surethat I come back to that
original driving question orinitial phenomena to really
understand the concept.
And that ties into thecross-cutting concepts and the
DCIs that go along with them.
So I think, if you can be ofthe mindset of learn something,
(17:49):
do something that you'll getpretty far.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Phenomenal based learning, to me, is about
changing the way that you seethe world, and not even just
putting on glasses and seeing itdifferently.
But to me this is maybe goingto sound a little drastic, but
it's almost like having LASIKeye surgery.
You're literally changing theshape of the way that the lens
that you use to look ateducation and look at the world.
And the strength ofphenomenon-based learning is
that it's for me, it's not justlimited to science, it's the way
(18:11):
that now I see every part of mypractice and I can implement it
across content areas.
It's not just based off of onecontent area.
I can use it and apply itanywhere.
And it's about empowering thelearner and engaging them in
curiosity, allowing them to becurious, allowing them to ask
those questions Again thatsocially we've now.
We're fearful to say I don'tknow the answer, I'm afraid Let
(18:35):
me go, let me go Google itbefore I give you the actual
answer.
And so we're empoweringstudents to say it's okay, right
, and let's give it a shot,let's throw out some hypotheses.
We have to demonstrate thatfirst, and we have to create
that space, and it's a verydifferent space, and so we also
need to allow ourselves grace indoing that and know that it is
a transition.
Every transition is going tohave hiccups.
(18:57):
Every transition is going tohave challenges.
It is not going to work the wayyou think it will work on the
very first try and not going towork the way you think it will
work on the very first try.
And you'll think, oh my gosh,this is going to take me three
hours and that lesson ends uptaking 35 minutes.
And you're like now, what do Ido for the next two hours and 25
minutes?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Right, We've never had that happen.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
That will happen.
It will happen a lot, andthat's where our skillset comes
in, because we know how tostretch things out.
We know how to bring them backtogether.
So be courageous, give it ashot, give it a try and allow it
to impact you and your practice, but also your life.
Again, I can't take off myphenomena-based glasses because
I don't have phenomena-basedlearning glasses.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I literally I thought you were going to say your
phenomena-based beard.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I literally that's gone.
I literally see the world thisway now and I can't unsee it.
I can't unbe interested, Ican't unbe curious.
Yesterday a helicopter flewover my house and my kids were
like Whoa, and they just werelike in awe, trying to like ask
questions and you know what doyou think it is and what do you
(20:01):
think it does, Like they were inthat space.
And I know a lot of timesthey'll come to me and be like
dad, what is this?
Could be anything?
And I'll say you know what Ithink this I don't actually know
, let's figure it out.
So that in itself is such ashift from I remember going to
my parents and they had theanswers what is this?
Why does somebody do that?
Why would somebody vote thisway about this?
(20:22):
And they would have you knowtheir answers, versus being able
to say there's a lot of reasonspeople could do that.
Why don't we?
Why don't we explore it alittle bit?
Let's figure it out, and figureout who you are as a person and
what you value and what youcare about, versus me saying
here's my reason I care about,here's why someone might do this
or that, and we don't alwaysknow.
So this is allowing space andtime for us to be part of the
(20:46):
molding of human beings.
One thing that we talk about somuch is soft skills.
They used to be called softskills the how to be a person.
21st century, those are nowpower skills and they're so
important, and this is one ofthe ways that we can help create
those and generate those byputting them in this space, in
the unknown, into the unknown.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Wow, that's something we didn't need.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It's staying, though, as always.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
thank you for tuning in and listening and don't
forget to like, follow andsubscribe.
Your favorite podcast helps usget to 15 billion downloads.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
By the end of season three.
Yes, 15 billion, To quote thegreat, great great Andrew Kuhn.
Phenomena doesn't have to bephenomenal to be something.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
That was really well said, that was really well said
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