December 22, 2024 • 43 mins
Understanding the unseen struggles of police officers, such as fitness and mental health challenges, is essential for improving officer wellbeing. Anthony shares essential insights on realistic expectations, the impact of stress, and the necessity for proactive health measures within law enforcement. Anthony comes with a Master's Degree in Psychology, 18 years of law enforcement experiences, and a long history of fitness to include previous ownership of a CrossFit gym.
• Discussion on the importance of fitness for law enforcement officers
• Insights into mental health challenges faced by cops
• The gap between expectations and reality for recruits
• Staffing shortages and their implications for policing
• The need for mandatory health checks in law enforcement
• Tips for stress management and coping strategies for officers
• Acknowledgement of the culture shift needed in law enforcement
• Advice for rookie officers based on lived experiences
Point of Contact:
Instagram @Anthony_heroicindustries
Instagram @heroicindustries
Website: www.skool.com/heroic-industries/about
Let us know what you loved about this episode!
Fit For Shift is a first responder focused wellness app for health, fitness, and community. Sign up now for a 3-day free trial. First responder credentials are required to join.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tyra Valeriano (00:01):
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Hi Anthony, thank you forjoining me all the way from
(00:42):
Indiana.
If you would tell us a littlemore about your background in
law enforcement and whatencouraged you to be a guest
today on Chapter Blue?
Anthony Shefferly (01:08):
but for 17 years going on eight this is my
18th year.
I've been on a lot.
I've done a lot of differentstuff on the job.
I did undercover narcotics fora couple of years, uniform
detective in our gang of violentcrimes unit for five or six
years a lot of time on uniformpatrol and then I've been and
I've been on our SWAT team for14 years now 13, 14 years,
something like that so a lot ofexperience.
On top of that, I've runbusinesses.
(01:30):
I had a CrossFit gym that I ranfor about eight years until I
sold it a couple years ago.
I do a lot of fitness trainingwith law enforcement and other
populations as well.
I've got a background instrength and conditioning and
psychology and, yeah, I justthought that this would be a
great opportunity to actually do.
What we just talked about offair was like talking about real
issues in law enforcement andnot kind of the PC issues that
(01:56):
we hear about in like in serviceand from our departments and
agencies and that kind of stuff.
Tyra Valeriano (02:01):
So I'm actually really glad that you brought up
fitness, because I think that'sa huge issue in law enforcement.
I'm sure you could agree and Ido want to get into that.
And there's it also kind ofleads into the mental wellness
factor too.
You have an education inpsychology, which I think is
very interesting.
I do want to ask you how areyou able to manage all of that
(02:24):
and your business as a policeofficer?
How was that?
Anthony Shefferly (02:29):
It's busy, but I mean it's really not any
different from what we all do.
Like there aren't many people onthe job that just work the job
and then, just unless they'remarried to, like a rich spouse
or something like that like, orhave money from like something
else.
Like, most of us have to go towork and we have to work
part-times, we have to workextra details, we have to work
(02:49):
security to make ends meet.
We just don't make that muchmoney and uh, uh, you know some
of some of it's bad budgetarystuff, because cops are really
bad at budgets too.
But, uh, but really it's likeall right, I'm going to work
extra anyway.
Do I want to do the same thingthat I do all day long and stay
in a uniform and grind myselfdown and work?
You know details of bars andparking lots, and like, no, I
(03:09):
don't.
I would much rather learnanother skillset, develop that
for other, for other people onthe job, you know, and and take
advantage of it that way.
So that that's why I did that.
So is it.
It's busy, but at the same time, it's going to be.
It's going to be busy anyway.
So, like, just pick your poison, I guess.
Tyra Valeriano (03:28):
Yeah, I'm sure just having extra time keeps you
.
At least you're staying healthyon your off time, where many of
us would probably be drinkingbeer or doing something worse
with our time.
Anthony Shefferly (03:43):
I mean you could make an argument that the
stress that comes with all theother business stuff is probably
like is that on par?
Probably not, but you know.
But yeah, it definitely likethe.
You know what's the, what's thephrase?
Idle hands are devil'splayground, right.
So, like, if you provideyourself with like dead time to
do nothing, like I learned thatright away in like high school.
(04:04):
It's like in between sportsseasons.
You're like how do how doesthis?
Like, how do people deal withall this time?
Like, what do they do?
That's when you make mistakesis when you don't have a plan.
Tyra Valeriano (04:13):
Yeah, I agree, I want to jump into your
education, so your background inpsychology.
I'm curious what your or whatyou've observed to be the
biggest challenges that officersface when it comes to mental
health, and what kind ofstrategies have you maybe used
for yourself or suggested toother officers?
Anthony Shefferly (04:35):
That is a hard question to answer.
The biggest issue with mentalhealth.
It's usually a framing issue.
It's like what do you expectfrom the job and does it match
what you actually experienced?
So that's a lot of times when,in general, like what kind of
screws people up is?
Like they have an expectationand a frame right and it's like
(04:58):
this is what it's going to belike.
And then when you actually godo the thing, whatever that is,
it doesn't match it, and so it'sreal hard to like make peace
with the fact like this is notwhat I thought it was.
And then on a job like lawenforcement, where, like this
isn't what I thought it was, andI have to deal with all this
like high stress, high pressure,decision-making, uh, you know,
like seeing net the nastieststuff that life has to offer all
(05:20):
the time.
Um, if those things, if youcan't reconcile those things, it
can cause a lot of stresscoming to work.
And then when you pair that withI also didn't expect like all
the like the politicalinfighting that happens on the
job a lot of times too, and it'slike, man, this is really like
not what I thought it was goingto be at all and it's really not
(05:42):
what was kind of sold to me inthe academy and then anymore a
lot of times at least what Ithought it was going to be at
all.
Um, and it's really not whatwas kind of sold to me in the
Academy, um, and then anymore alot of times at least.
What I've seen in the last 17years is is police like
recruiting is shifting and theypaint a picture that isn't what
the job is and it's like peoplethink it's all going to be uh,
like meet and greets and and, uhand and you know everybody
loves each other and we're gonnahigh five cops and it's like,
(06:05):
unless you're a PIO or an SRO orsome position where you can be
more of a social figure, that'snot gonna be your life here,
right?
This is not gonna be how it goes, and if you're expecting that
and then you get met with abunch of shit, that is not that
right.
It ain't gonna go well, youknow.
Tyra Valeriano (06:26):
So how is staffing in Indiana right now?
I mean, are you guys prettyshort staffed?
What's it like over there foryou guys?
Anthony Shefferly (06:33):
I mean, I think everybody's short staffed
and it doesn't matter how wellstaffed you are, like you're
always going to be at likeminimum counts, especially for
the road, like like that'salways going to be the case.
But as far as recruiting goes,like our recruiting numbers are
abysmal.
They're terrible.
Like, just to put it in context, like you know I'm I work in a
500, 500 man department and whenI was applying in like 2005,
(06:57):
2007, right, we were getting2000, 3000 applications for you
know, 20, 30 spots and now thesame size class, we're getting
two, 300.
I mean, it's really bad and youcan make the argument that it's
the way that we recruit is veryold, that people don't use the
internet really to like market,which is insane to me, but also
(07:22):
like just the climate of nobodywants to do this job and going
back to pay, like we don'treally get paid that much.
So what's the benefit here?
There's no upside to it, youknow.
Tyra Valeriano (07:32):
I'm going to say that I'm not trying to disagree
with you, but I've been on theaspect of working for an agency
who pays very well and it'sfunny because even with good pay
, you know the officers arestill not happy.
Eventually that gets old andyou ask for more money.
You get more money, you'rehappy for a little bit and then
it just goes right back to whereit's at and it's just a
repetitive cycle.
(07:52):
It doesn't really fix anything.
But I will say that therecruiting part is part of the
reason why I think this podcastis important for people who want
to join law enforcement isbecause I want people to know
what I didn't know.
When I got in I thought, hey, Ican be a mom, single mom, with
my two kids, I'm going to be arole model and this is going to
be great.
And that is not what it is.
(08:13):
It's completely just a facadeand it's not that easy.
You know I'm not saying that itcan't be done, but there is
rose colored glasses on theprofession and there are a lot
of things that I know.
We don't like to talk negativeabout the job because we love it
, but there's a reality thatnobody's talking about and right
now the generation that'scoming into law enforcement.
(08:35):
I think that they just don't putup with shit, like they don't
want to put up with it.
You know they're just like hey,you know what, this isn't for
me, this isn't what they told me.
I'm out Like I just, I justdon't care, and that's what
we're dealing with Now.
We're dealing with people thatdon't want to put up with it.
So if you're not honest fromthe beginning and you tell them
what to expect, they might stickaround and be like okay, well,
at least I know.
(08:56):
What.
Do you think about that?
Anthony Shefferly (08:58):
I think that that goes back to that framing
aspect and I think that's ahundred percent accurate.
So, like just framing aspect,and I think that's a hundred
percent accurate.
So like just just touching onthe money, the money issue,
you're totally right.
Like culture is is moreimportant than money.
As far as like recruiting goesRight, that that is for sure.
If you set a culture whereyou're telling the truth and
you're showing people what thejob is and and everybody's on
board for the mission, likeyou'll get people.
(09:19):
But the the issue with themoney is like if I have like,
let's say, like I had to rewindRight, I got a master's in
psychology, I can absolutely myearning potential going in
another route is much, muchhigher, right, so like you have
to make sure that the earningpotential is on par with private
sector work.
That's number one, otherwiseyou just won't be in the
conversation.
(09:39):
So you've got to be in theconversation.
But as far as um framing thingsin in rose colored glasses,
like yeah, that that happens,especially with recruiting um,
so I think it's really just like, are you on board for the
mission?
You know like here's themission and then here's the
reality of it too, cause, likeyou shouldn't get into this
(10:01):
profession thinking that you'renot going to have stress and
tragedy, like you're gettinginto it because of the stress
and tragedy.
Honestly, same thing with with,like emergency room nursing and
stuff like that.
Like you don't get into it tohope that every day is clean,
right, you want to get dirty.
And if you don't know that andaccept that, like you're doing
it for the bad stuff, toexperience the bad stuff, so
(10:23):
that then you can go home andyou can see your kids and see
your spouse and see the peoplethat you love and you can
experience the good, the goodside of things in a way that you
couldn't if you didn't see thedeath and destruction that life
has to offer.
So if you frame it in thatcontext and you expect it to
happen, it's not an if ithappens, it's a when.
It's a when somebody's going totry to shoot me, when somebody
(10:46):
is going to commit suicide infront of me, when I'm going to
have to pull a trigger onsomebody.
Those things are going tohappen or you're going to see
them like face to face.
It's going to happen, right, ifyou frame it that way and then
you know that on the back endyou're going to be able to like
live in both worlds.
Then it becomes a really reallycool thing, very cool Like.
(11:07):
Very few people experience that.
But if you don't understand thedichotomy and how to balance
that, it can wreck you.
Tyra Valeriano (11:14):
Yeah, I agree with that.
When did you get your master'sin psychology?
Were you already a policeofficer at that time?
Anthony Shefferly (11:20):
Yeah, so I actually timed it up.
So I graduated with my master'sand then went right into the
academy.
Tyra Valeriano (11:26):
Okay, so you kind of already had a good head
on your shoulders and youalready knew some of the aspects
that most people don't know.
Know because you have kidsgoing into the academy 20 years
old and they have no idea abouteven life in general.
So you kind of had a head start, would you say?
That's fair.
Anthony Shefferly (11:47):
I would say that my education head start was
yes, but I graduated with mymaster's at like 25, 26, got
into the academy about the sameage and, like you just said, you
got 20-year-old kids.
I graduated college, got mymaster's.
I had some decent lifeexperience because I didn't get
(12:07):
hired right away.
I had to grind, I had to applyfor like that was post 9-11.
So everybody wanted to be a cop, right.
That's why we had so manypeople still um, so it wasn't
easy getting hired.
But uh, but yes, but I wasstill really young when I got
hired.
So like I stepped in, uh, tonsof piles of shit along the way,
you know.
(12:27):
So it's not like like you haveto learn that stuff and having
the education behind it helpsyou put context with it.
It but yeah, you got to learnlife as you go.
Tyra Valeriano (12:40):
You know there's a lot of officers that deals
with trauma different.
I haven't ever been one to seesomething very traumatic and
then go home and have nightmaresabout it, and I know that
there's people who do havetraumatic experiences like that.
Because of your experience ingeneral being a police officer
and your education, have youbeen able to deal with things
(13:03):
that are traumatic on your ownand figure out how to work
through them, just because ofthe knowledge that you had from
your education.
Anthony Shefferly (13:12):
Yeah, it definitely helps you understand
the mechanism, right?
So it's like it's just likegetting injured at the gym,
right?
Let's say I go and I'm doingbench press and I blow a pack.
I'm like, all right, well, whydid this happen?
So that I don't do it again?
So you give it time to recover,you figure out why you did it,
and then, and then what, whatthe mechanism is, so you don't
do it again, right?
(13:32):
So like, oh, I need to set myshoulders and drive with my lats
, like that'll make sure thatyou don't like like stress that
pack.
And mental health isn't anydifferent.
Like, if you understand themechanism of trauma, how your
mind is organizing the threatand how you, how you continue to
organize threats external tothat original thing, that that
was real Right.
(13:52):
If you do that all the time,that's you know that's a trigger
, right, your trigger, and thenthat that causes the, the
anxiety and and all that stuffto kind of snowball.
So if you understand how themechanism works, you can have a
way better time of like, of ofrewiring the circuitry in order
(14:12):
for it not to occur, versus ifyou don't understand the
mechanisms and you don'tunderstand how your brain and
your mind are working and howthat like and how that also ties
in with your physiology, thenit's going to be a lot harder.
It's going to feel like youdon't have as much control as
you do.
Tyra Valeriano (14:29):
Okay, what about fitness?
I mean, you've been doingfitness for how long?
Anthony Shefferly (14:35):
Um since I was five since you were five.
Okay, so you obviously know,even back through, like sports
and middle school, high school,that kind of stuff, like yeah,
like for my whole life,basically.
Tyra Valeriano (14:47):
Okay, so you know the importance of of
staying fit and healthy.
And when you got into thisprofession, what do you notice
about police officers and theirhealth?
Anthony Shefferly (14:59):
So law enforcement is like a microcosm
of society, right, Witheverything, with divorce rates,
with obesity rates, like theyall kind of match the general
population.
But the issue with lawenforcement is that everything
we do is exaggerated because ofthe intensity of the job, right?
So if, if a normal populationdivorce rates are like 50%, ours
(15:19):
are like 70%.
Obesity is, like, you know, 60%, ours are 80%.
So we're always like a biggerversion, like an, like an
exploded version of of the thelike general society.
Um, so, yeah, we're, I mean,over overweight and obesity I
think it's like 80%, likecombining those two.
I think just obesity, it's atleast 50 to 60% of law
(15:43):
enforcement.
And that's that's insane, right,that's that's completely insane
.
That, uh, that that moredepartments are not taking this,
more cities, more agencies, thegovernments that hire these
people dump hundreds ofthousands, if not millions, of
dollars in training.
Right, I can't.
I've been on a SWAT team for 14years, all the training that
(16:04):
I've had, and there's, we don'teven have a physical yearly to
make sure that we're physicallyhealthy enough to do the job.
So from an investmentstandpoint, that's terrible.
That's terrible.
Why would you not make surethat the investment it's like a
car, like you get the oilchanged, you check that out.
When it breaks, you take it toa mechanic, but for some reason
you're going to dump hundreds ofthousands of dollars in
(16:25):
training into these, into thesehighly trained officers, and
then just be like, yeah,whatever, Like we're not going
to check any ever again, Likewe're going to we're not going
to care about your health, likethat's.
Tyra Valeriano (16:44):
that's crazy.
Yeah, I've noticed thatagencies are giving incentives
actually to do that test yearly.
So instead of it beingmandatory, it's an option and of
course, people are drawn tomoney so they'll do it.
But most people won't becausethey can't.
They can't pass it, so they'renot going to do it.
But that's how they're doing it, incentivizing it versus
actually mandating it.
Anthony Shefferly (16:59):
So when we're talking about mandating things
like fit tests like that's awhole can of worms, that now
we're talking about unions andnow we're talking about like on,
like a bunch of stuff right,you can't argue is the fact that
we want to make sure that weare healthy enough to do the job
period right.
So we're talking about likebase level physical and like a
(17:20):
stress test.
Just go and check your heart,walk on a treadmill, make sure
you don't have any like heartblockages that are making you a
time bomb on the street, right?
Um, because my time on, I thinkour department's lost three
officers, all cardiac related.
So we train, you know, drivingand fighting, shooting, but
we're losing cops left and rightto cardiac related events and
nobody's saying shit about that.
(17:41):
Um, so the fix for that, thefirst, the first step in the in
the fix for that is making surethat you just get your cops a
physical every year, that's itRight, and then you can start
building from there.
But if you don't even check tosee if they're healthy enough to
walk on an inclined treadmill,like there's nowhere to go from
there, you have to set that asthe baseline.
(18:01):
Hey, we just want to check yourhealth and make sure you're
good, and our fire departmentactually has that as a thing
that they do every year Mostfire departments do.
They make them take a stresstest, they strap them to the
electrodes, they have them walkon the treadmill and that has
saved in my time here, probablythree to five firefighters that
were like 90% blockages.
They take them in for doublebypass right away and they saved
(18:23):
their lives.
I've seen it.
So why aren't we doing the samething?
I don't know.
Tyra Valeriano (18:29):
That's a good question.
I want to say when I was in lawenforcement, I had a hard time
being able to eat food, so Idon't know that I would have
been able to get overweightbecause we were just so busy and
I felt like I was starving mostof the time.
Anthony Shefferly (18:44):
Well, that was my theory.
And it.
Well, and that goes back tostress management.
Like I would say that if, if,Dan, correct me if I'm wrong but
if, if you are stressed, whatdo you do personally, Like, do
you eat when you're stressed ordo you not eat when you're
stressed?
Tyra Valeriano (19:00):
When I'm stressed, I go to the gym.
I think that's something that Igot from being in the career is
just going to the gym, and it'sjust been something I've done
since, but I would say, maybebefore, that maybe comfort
eating would have been a thingthat I used to do prior to the
career.
Anthony Shefferly (19:17):
Yeah, so you know.
I mean, if you just look at itfrom a stress management
standpoint on the job, off thejob, busy, not busy Like you can
always find cookies and donutsand shit food, hyper palatable
food that's super high calorieto deal with stress.
Like if you deal with stressthrough food, like you'll do it
on the job and off the job withstress through food.
Like you'll do it on the joband off the job If you don't
deal with stress food, uh, andyou manage it some other way,
(19:38):
whether it's healthy orunhealthy, like that will
mitigate weight gain or couldanyway, uh.
And then you talk about, like,like cycles of like, well, you
might be too busy on the job,but there's at least 12 hours
off the job every day that youhave to consume as many calories
as you want, you know.
So, like, do you want to knowwhat?
Tyra Valeriano (19:55):
I was doing on those 12 hours.
Well, yeah, I wanted to sleep.
I don't know.
I think most I can't speak formen, but I would say most women
need at least nine to 10 hoursof sleep.
I was dying If I could not getmy rest on my days off.
I was just a freaking piece ofcrap for my family.
I just couldn't function Right.
(20:17):
Just a freaking piece of crapfor my family.
I just couldn't function right.
So I had to take one day and Ididn't even have that.
To be honest, what advice wouldyou give to officers that are
looking to better their health?
Let's say they're in asituation where they know that,
hey, I am overweight or I'mthinking I have a health problem
.
I haven't checked it out.
What?
What's a good start for them?
Anthony Shefferly (20:34):
Uh well, the I'm glad you mentioned sleep.
Like sleep is is is kind of anand like sleep and schedule,
right?
Um, number one thing that Ihear from cops is I don't have
any time, which which in thisjob sometimes is true, right,
like I don't have time to get tothe gym five days a week for an
hour and a half sessions.
That's probably true, you knowwhat I mean.
(20:55):
Like I don't have that and Ihave my gym in my garage.
So, uh, like what's the hack?
Right?
Um, you look at your schedule,whether you write it down on
paper or have it on a, like aGoogle calendar or whatever and
then you, you set yournon-negotiables and you set your
sleep first, right, regardlessof how much sleep you need or
want, want or like you have toset a consistent bedtime and a
(21:18):
semi consistent wake up time.
Right, those things have to beregular.
And then you set your workouttime and then you set your meal
times and then, like, you planthese things and then you just
start chunking away at it.
You try to be as consistent asyou can.
But, like sleep recovery, uh,making sure that you're
consuming protein and moving,and like that's like the lowest
(21:39):
hanging fruit.
Um, you know, to start to startmoving in the right direction,
it doesn't have to be anythingcrazy.
I'd love to say like I have thebest program by my program, but
like they're all kind of thesame, like move more, sleep more
, uh and and eat more protein.
Therefore, you'll have lessroom for junk food.
You know, if you're focusing onjust wild card is like make
(22:00):
sure you're hydrated, right, ifyou do those things, you'll
start, you'll start to haveprogress and you just do it the
best you can every day and ifyou do that like you'll be all
right, you'll get there.
Tyra Valeriano (22:09):
Yeah, all jokes aside, um, you know, I I
definitely feel for the lawenforcement community when it
comes to health, but when I leftI had this nervous system
reaction and I've talked aboutit on past podcasts.
But I was in a constant stateof stress because this is what
(22:29):
we're living through during ourcareer every single day.
It's nonstop and after yearsand years of doing it I felt
that I just couldn't shake itoff.
So it goes kind of past evenjust the physical part of things
or just eating right andgetting enough sleep.
It goes into that stressmanagement and how we're
handling stress.
So I know you asked me earlierhow do I handle stress.
(22:50):
I want to say that most policeofficers would say I go to the
gym or, you know, I drink a beeror whatever they may do.
Have you found anything thatyou would suggest to officers
that might be listening, what ismost beneficial for you or what
might help them in stressmanagement tactics or techniques
(23:10):
?
Anthony Shefferly (23:15):
I think that you kind of alluded to it.
There's not one tactic that'sgoing to work best.
Right, because you can say thegym is best, but at the same
time, like going and working outsometimes is too much stress.
Like if you go and you work outhard every day and then you
burn it down at work every dayand then you're like I'm super
stressed out, I'm going to dotwo workouts today, like that
probably is not a good idea.
If you're already training thatmuch, you should probably find
(23:36):
a different tactic in order toregulate your nervous system.
So, really, like when youmentioned nervous system
regulation, that's the biggestthing, whether it's like breath
work or ice bath or justlearning how to like or go for a
walk.
I don't like stuff that youlike to do that you know is
going to bring you down into aparasympathetic state.
Right, that's going to bereally impactful for stress
(23:58):
management.
We are all good at goingsympathetic, fight or flight.
All of us right, and reallymost of us enjoy that.
That's why we want the jobright.
We want to drive fast, we wantto fight people, we want to do
stuff that's going to, that'sgoing to send us sympathetic,
because that's fun.
You know it's exciting, uh,it's that, that dopamine, that
(24:25):
that adrenaline that you knowthat whole system gets activated
and it's and it's super cool.
Um, the downside to that is, isthat, like, usually, usually
personalities that like thatstuff, uh, also like, um, oh,
recreational activities thatalso do those things?
You know, uh, crossfit, jiuJitsu, I love both of them Right
.
Wonder why, uh, what else?
Driving uh motorcycles fast,you know, like, like, doing
stuff like that, like racingcars, like, um, all that stuff
(24:46):
is all super sympathetic.
Now the trick is figuring outhow to manage that nervous
system and bring it down,because you can't spend all day
in sympathetic states or youhave, like, your nervous system
will be dysregulated and thatdoesn't help anything.
Tyra Valeriano (25:03):
Yeah, and the reason why I bring that up is
just, I mean, I experienced itand this is something that I
wouldn't have known unless Ileft, and nobody tells you that
it's one of those things.
You know, you have these rosecolored glasses.
Nobody's telling you that, hey,you need to learn how to get
back down to your baseline.
You know, when you're, whenyou're on your high at work and
you're just your adrenaline'spumping, you have to learn how
(25:25):
to regulate your system.
And so, because this issomething that you kind of have
some experience and knowledge in, I was curious what your point
of view on that was.
Yeah, that's really interestingthat that you you, so you didn't
notice that regular that thatnervous system response until
you left Was that and I want tosay I've been out of law
(25:45):
enforcement now for two and ahalf years and I want to say the
past three months is probablythe most steady that I've been.
Uh, when I first got out, Imoved to Thailand, which I don't
know if I told you that, butit's like paradise here.
There really is nothingstressful.
I mean, what else could I askfor?
Right To completely change myenvironment, and I was literally
(26:07):
looking for stress andeverything.
And it's not because I wanted tobe stressed, I just couldn't
help it.
I just felt like that's what mybody needed and it was draining
me, trying to find a reason tobe just upset or just out of out
of balance.
That's how I felt.
So, because I went through this, I want people to know and
understand and maybe have someguidance on how they can manage
(26:29):
that while they're in the career, because when they do get out,
this is something that they'regoing to probably experience if
they don't work on it now.
Anthony Shefferly (26:35):
Yeah, so so there's a lot to unpack.
There actually is like allright, so you, you gave up, you
gave up that that job, right, sothat provided you with all of
that stress and stimulation andall that exciting things, um,
that come with being a cop, andthen it's gone.
So your body is already preppedto deal with it daily, even
though you don't have it Right.
So it's expecting that stressresponse and uh, and it's not
(26:59):
there.
So then you start looking foryour body wants to make things
like set the same right.
So it's like all right, I'mgoing to start, I'm gonna start
fights or conflict or go seekout these things and that's how,
like, that's how, uh, that'show affairs happen, that's how,
like all these like high risk,uh, like dopamine seeking things
happen.
Is we get so used to that thatstress and then we want it and
(27:19):
we think it's normal in our body, kind of like requires it
almost.
So like, how do we?
How do we fill in the gaps?
How do we?
How do we manage that and bringit back down, especially
because you said like thattransitional phase out of the
job is super difficult for a lotof people.
It happens in law enforcement,happens in military, for sure.
I even saw it playing collegefootball, like there were guys
(27:41):
that did not transition awayfrom the game well at all, and
uh, and that's that's adifficult thing too.
So it's this role transitioninto a new thing and then, to go
along with that, you can alsolook at it and say like, well,
why'd you start your podcast?
Well, you look for a newmission, right.
You look for a new adventure,and if you don't have something
that you're kind of liketransitioning into at least a
rough idea, um, it makestransitions very difficult, and
(28:05):
then you start slipping intodepression and anxiety, and I'm
sure that was part of it too.
Tyra Valeriano (28:10):
You know, for me I I don't know I kind of have a
skewed perception on um how Ihandle what I would call
depression or something.
I try to really utilize myenvironment to not go there.
I've been through a lot, justlike everybody else has, and we
all handle things differently,but that's another topic that we
(28:30):
could probably touch on isdepression in law enforcement
and how people are dealing withthat.
There's a stigma, and you'vebeen in for 18 years, so I'm
sure you you come from a timewhere nobody talks about
anything.
You keep it to yourself.
You need to be a man, you needto tough it up.
This is what you signed up forand that's kind of what we're
dealing with now and things arechanging and this is at the
(28:53):
forefront, where we're trying tobring the awareness, not
necessarily because we wantpeople to think that you know
you have to talk about it, butit's an issue.
Anthony Shefferly (29:01):
Uh, it depends on the person and it
depends on the way that youcompartmentalize.
So, like, compartmentalizationis like critical, we all do it,
right, you all have to.
Like, you can't break down on ascene, right, you have to stuff
it somewhere, right, you haveto deal with it, you have to
manage it.
And, uh, some people are betterat that, some people are worse
at that.
Um, but, uh, but there's,there's a, a, a price to be paid
(29:24):
, you know, and it it just itdepends on when and how.
Um, because, like you know, whatI see most times is like,
especially with men, right, it'slike, well, you have to tough
it up and be a man.
Well, there is some truth tothat.
We cannot take that away andsay that you need to talk about
everything.
Sometimes you don't have theright to break down right now.
You got to man up and deal withit.
(29:46):
That's what you need to do.
And then, on the back end ofthat is where you have to learn
how to process things and stuffit down, put it away, deal with
it, and then, in your own time,like you got to figure out how
to unpack that and kind ofprocess it.
And what happens is likeespecially for I'm speaking from
experience, right, uh, fromfrom a male standpoint like
(30:10):
those things that you stuff downand put away can change over
time, right?
So the stuff that I saw mysecond year on, third year, on,
fourth year on is not I don'tview it the same way as the
stuff that, like, as as I do now, looking back on it they mean
different things as you age andyou mature, and then you look
back and you're like, man,that's a, that's a that doesn't
feel the same.
You know so there's a price tobe paid and it could be 20 years
(30:33):
from now, you know.
So it's like how do youcontinue to evolve and process
these things and make meaningout of them?
You know, like there's a lot tobe said about putting meaning to
seemingly meaningless acts ofviolence, like that's the
biggest thing that I've seen.
That kind of like messes peopleup is like when they can't make
(30:54):
sense of you know a kid beingkilled or a family getting wiped
out by a semi.
Like you can't make sense ofthat stuff but at the same time
you have to try to put it insomething that makes sense in
your brain as to why it occurred, or the whole world is going to
seem dark and awful andmeaningless.
It's like we're all just hereand then we die, which isn't the
(31:15):
case.
Tyra Valeriano (31:18):
Right.
Do you have plans to retireanytime soon?
Anthony Shefferly (31:22):
We'll see.
So you know, 20 years is comingup and, like you talk about
that transitional phase and it'slike you know I would like to
see every cop, at 20 years orwhenever your retirement is able
to be pulled, that you have anoption to move into something
else.
You know you can stay if youwant, but if you want to get out
, like move into something else.
And that's where you know theonline stuff that I'm doing
(31:43):
right now, the experience that Igained running a gym and owning
a gym, you know, with 250members, like those are things
that I am looking at buildinginto and having a possible, you
know, move out.
Tyra Valeriano (31:59):
So, yeah, okay, I have a lot of officers that
are always well when they leaveor retire.
They're always like I can't doanything else but this job, and
I think we've all been there andI can tell you that it's
crossed my mind probably abillion times that I want to go
back to being a police officerand I know that I'm really,
really good at it and that'sprobably the best thing that I
can do.
(32:19):
But in reality, when you startto look at all the things that
we do as cops and you translateit, it's just a word.
Really it's just a word.
If you were to translate it tocorporate world or whatever it
is that you want to do, afteryou get out, you can really do
anything.
(32:39):
I mean, we get a lot ofexperience and we probably just
have no idea how to change thewords.
We're so stuck on our jargon.
You know, oh, um, I interviewedthis suspect versus okay, that
could be translated to, I don'tknow, customer service.
But we're just stuck in ourjargon.
So when we want to get anotherjob or we want to try something
new, nobody wants us becausethey don't know what that means,
they don't know what we'retalking about and they don't
(33:00):
care.
Anthony Shefferly (33:01):
Yeah, that's absolutely true, and I actually
I sent a message out on ourunion board because everybody's
bitching about the same oldstuff we always bitch about we
need more money.
These guys don't respect us andI just kind of said, like,
listen, we have a lot ofskillsets that we can take to
the public sector and we canleverage these things like in a
public or in a private sector,I'm sorry, you know, we can
leverage these skills that wehave privately and we can make
(33:23):
money.
You know this, this is a job.
It is a, it is a cool job, butit is not the only way that we
can make money, you know.
And we, we do get stuck on rolesand titles.
And this is who I am.
Right, this is my identity,based on the fact that I've been
a cop for 17 plus years.
Right, this is who I am.
I'm a SWAT team guy and, uh, asmuch as I love those roles,
(33:45):
they are temporary and uh, andonce you really break that down,
then you, then the job doesn'town you as much, right?
Um, 2020 was a big like.
I had some big revelations thenwhere it was like what are you
willing to do to stay part ofthis job.
Are you willing to take agovernment ordered you know
(34:06):
vaccine, or are you willing toenforce mandates that you don't
agree with, Like a lot of peoplewere like, I have to keep this
job.
And it was like okay, this it'sa job, it is a cool job and it
is an identity, but it's atemporary one and all of us are
going to have to give it up atsome point, right?
So use the job, gain theskillset, leverage it you can to
(34:29):
make your mission possible, andif it matches with the agency,
cool.
And if it doesn't anymore, seeya, I'll take my skills
somewhere else.
Tyra Valeriano (34:38):
So what is leadership like in your agency?
I don't want to pinpoint youragency specifically, obviously,
but a lot of agencies areexperiencing the same thing.
They have leadership problemsand a lot of the morale is down
because of well, let's justblame everything on leadership.
Is that kind of what you haveexperienced in your career?
Anthony Shefferly (35:00):
All right.
So you're talking aboutgovernment, right, and this is
not just my agency, this isevery agency, because everybody
I talk to all over the country,even in Canada, it's really the
same shit, right?
When you have people that areappointed politically, it will
never be fair.
It will.
It's always who's buddies withwho who politically needs to be
(35:21):
here.
For what reason?
Are they qualified?
Probably not, maybe a couple,but probably not.
So is what it is right.
And then they're going to putpeople in charge who maybe
aren't qualified or maybe youdon't like.
This is really what it is Like.
I don't like those people.
It's like, okay, are theyqualified or not?
Well, I don't know, because Idon't like them.
And then that filters down.
So when you have people thatare appointed and not
(35:44):
merit-based, that becomesproblematic, but that's the
structure we have.
So when you look at leadership,leadership has to occur, like
Jocko Willink says, at everylevel.
Right?
So you have the ability to leadas a patrol officer or as a as
a you know, a corporal or asergeant, like, whatever your
low level, you know lower level.
(36:04):
Um, like, leadership positionsare like you have the ability to
lead at every level.
And if you don't take thatownership, then, like it doesn't
matter what those guys at thetop really do.
Like if I'm going and I'm I'mtaking my calls one at a time,
and I have the ability to leadthe new guys right as just as a
patrolman but I've been on for17 years, right, so like I have
(36:26):
the ability to lead them basedon just how I act and how I
approach them Right and myattitude, and then I have the
ability to lead up the chain tothe sergeants if I need to.
You know like that kind ofstuff happens.
But if, if we just look at theguys up top in the ivory tower
and we're like those guys suck,like they're always going to
suck, they're not designed to begood, right, so this is the
(36:46):
structure we have, so deal withit and learn how to lead better
at your level.
So if you have the opportunitythen to get promoted, to rise up
to the ivory tower, maybeyou'll do a better job.
You know, like that's all youcan do.
Tyra Valeriano (37:00):
I think the problem that I've seen and this
is just from experience is thatthat mindset is really good to
have, but you know you're goingto be going up against the grain
eventually in your careerbecause you're going to be
leading and you're going to bedisagreeing with the people that
are above you and you're notgoing to get anywhere just
because, like what you said,politically it's just, it can't
change in certain areas and nomatter how much you want to go
(37:24):
in there and make a differenceand be like hey guys, I got your
back, I'm going to do this.
Anthony Shefferly (37:33):
I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.
It doesn't usually work outthat way, so that is an
opportunity in order to, like,flank and communicate Right.
So if you run into a wall andyou keep running into the wall,
how many times are you going torun into the wall before you're
like I got to find a way aroundthis wall or over this wall, I
can't go through it?
You're talking to people andyou're in a leadership role and
it's like they say, no, this,you're not doing this, or no,
whatever.
(37:53):
Like you get denied flat.
It's like okay, well then I needto go back to the drawing board
.
If I really believe in what itis that I'm presenting, then I
need to figure out a way torepackage it and come at them
from an angle to make themunderstand, like, my point of
view better.
Right, and if I and, however, Ineed to do that, that's that's
my job in learning and leading.
(38:14):
It's like I have to lead mypeople, not by being just a
blunt object and smashingthrough the wall.
Like, even if you win, likewhat's going to be on the other
side of that?
Like you're just going to beknown as an absolute bulldozing,
and maybe that's appropriate,but probably, probably not.
Like you, you probably ought tofind a way to kind of flank
that and figure out how tocommunicate better.
Tyra Valeriano (38:34):
I'm going to say that I do think that
communication is a huge problem.
But even if you're a goodcommunicator as a leader, you
can't make another leader be agood communicator.
You can't make them understandsomething.
So, no matter how many timesyou do something over or how
many times you go back to thewriting block and you're like,
hey, I need to do it this way orchange it up, if they're not
(38:56):
understanding and they choosenot to understand, you will
never get through that rock wallor around it or over it,
because you cannot change theother person.
You know what I mean.
So I feel like that's kind of aproblem that a lot of leaders
are facing, and maybe notleaders, maybe patrol feels it
the most.
They feel it the most when theleaders are not communicating
(39:16):
effectively and they're bumpingheads because you can't change
each other.
So if one's hey, I'mcommunicating really well, I
know I am and the other one'snot taking it for what it is,
it's just never going to goanywhere.
Anthony Shefferly (39:28):
You can't change other people, that's
absolutely true.
But what you can do is you canseek to understand their thought
process better, right.
So it's like all right, I can'tstand this guy.
I can't stand the way heoperates.
I don't like the way he leads.
Like he's my direct supervisor,though, like I can learn to
understand him so that I can,one, work with him and then, two
(39:48):
, I can understand how hecommunicates, why he thinks the
way he does, so that when I needsomething or when I want
something, I can package it in away that actually makes sense
to him.
You know, um, and we'll get yousomewhere.
I don't know, maybe, maybe not,but at the same time, you're
learning that skill set becauseit will pay off in the future.
Maybe, with your kids, you knowwhat I mean.
Like that skill set because itwill pay off in the future.
(40:09):
Maybe with your kids, you knowwhat I mean.
Like, all right, I'm seeingthings.
I'm trying to understand peoplebetter in order to understand
their thought process, who theyare, where they come from.
You know all these differentfactors that lead them to
believe the way they do, even ifit's super rigid and doesn't
make sense.
It's really stupid, right?
So, like I understand whythey're stupid, right, so that I
can better communicate withstupid people, so we do that.
(40:29):
We do that on on runs all thetime.
We do that on calls for service.
We go to people that that arehighly stressed and not educated
and probably drunk, right.
So now we need to seek tounderstand, like, what is
causing them to act this way andhow do we figure out a way to
fix this, right, you know, andthere's a million different ways
to do that.
Tyra Valeriano (40:47):
So Well, we're running out of time and there is
a question that I like to askall of my law enforcement guests
and really your answer iswhatever you want it to be, but
I want it to be for listeners togain some insight on what they
can take into perspective andmaybe change in their career.
What would you tell your rookieself, based on your experience,
(41:09):
to do differently now that youknow what you know?
Anthony Shefferly (41:13):
My rookie self um, slow down a little bit,
probably, like you don't needto burn down everything all at
the same time.
Right, there's time to do it.
And uh, looking back, I think Iwas actually told that by
people and I disregarded it.
So like, yeah, I think that'smost of us, yeah, and that just,
(41:36):
and that just comes with age,but uh, but yeah, you'll
actually buy yourself more timedoing cool stuff If you just
just slow down a touch.
You don't have to run headfirstand everything.
Slow down a little bit, featherthe gas, you know, and and then
and then move.
You know probably that.
Tyra Valeriano (41:51):
That's good advice, I would say I agree with
that, and whoever listens, Ihope they take that advice
because, like you said, somebodytold you once upon a time and
you didn't listen, and I'm suresomebody told me that too Okay.
So if the listeners want tomake contact with you or ask you
any questions, maybe even aboutyour coaching you do fitness
coaching Okay.
If they want to make contactwith you or ask you any
questions, maybe even about yourum coach you you do fitness
(42:11):
coaching Okay.
If they want to ask you anyquestions about that, or maybe
even pick your brain atpsychology or what you think
about law enforcement, how canthey contact you?
Anthony Shefferly (42:19):
Um, so probably the best way is
Instagram.
Uh, it's Anthony underscore.
Heroic industries, uh, orheroic industries on Instagram.
Both of those are fine, those,those both go right to me.
And then I also have a schoolcommunity and it's an online
training platform that's totallyfree for law enforcement first
responders.
If you want to link to that,then I can totally get it to you
(42:41):
through Instagram, or I don'tknow if I can give it to you and
you can post it up, but that'stotally free.
Tyra Valeriano (42:45):
Yeah, I can do that.
Okay, yeah, that would be thosewould be the best ways, okay,
well, thank you so much, anthony.
I appreciate your time.
Thank you for your expertise.
I really enjoyed today'sconversation and for the
listeners, thank you for tuningin, for your continued support
and everyone, be safe.
We'll see you on the next one.
Thank you for joining me onchapter blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
(43:08):
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Hi Anthony, thank you forjoining me all the way from
(00:42):
Indiana.
If you would tell us a littlemore about your background in
law enforcement and whatencouraged you to be a guest
today on Chapter Blue?
Anthony Shefferly (01:08):
but for 17 years going on eight this is my
18th year.
I've been on a lot.
I've done a lot of differentstuff on the job.
I did undercover narcotics fora couple of years, uniform
detective in our gang of violentcrimes unit for five or six
years a lot of time on uniformpatrol and then I've been and
I've been on our SWAT team for14 years now 13, 14 years,
something like that so a lot ofexperience.
On top of that, I've runbusinesses.
(01:30):
I had a CrossFit gym that I ranfor about eight years until I
sold it a couple years ago.
I do a lot of fitness trainingwith law enforcement and other
populations as well.
I've got a background instrength and conditioning and
psychology and, yeah, I justthought that this would be a
great opportunity to actually do.
What we just talked about offair was like talking about real
issues in law enforcement andnot kind of the PC issues that
(01:56):
we hear about in like in serviceand from our departments and
agencies and that kind of stuff.
Tyra Valeriano (02:01):
So I'm actually really glad that you brought up
fitness, because I think that'sa huge issue in law enforcement.
I'm sure you could agree and Ido want to get into that.
And there's it also kind ofleads into the mental wellness
factor too.
You have an education inpsychology, which I think is
very interesting.
I do want to ask you how areyou able to manage all of that
(02:24):
and your business as a policeofficer?
How was that?
Anthony Shefferly (02:29):
It's busy, but I mean it's really not any
different from what we all do.
Like there aren't many people onthe job that just work the job
and then, just unless they'remarried to, like a rich spouse
or something like that like, orhave money from like something
else.
Like, most of us have to go towork and we have to work
part-times, we have to workextra details, we have to work
(02:49):
security to make ends meet.
We just don't make that muchmoney and uh, uh, you know some
of some of it's bad budgetarystuff, because cops are really
bad at budgets too.
But, uh, but really it's likeall right, I'm going to work
extra anyway.
Do I want to do the same thingthat I do all day long and stay
in a uniform and grind myselfdown and work?
You know details of bars andparking lots, and like, no, I
(03:09):
don't.
I would much rather learnanother skillset, develop that
for other, for other people onthe job, you know, and and take
advantage of it that way.
So that that's why I did that.
So is it.
It's busy, but at the same time, it's going to be.
It's going to be busy anyway.
So, like, just pick your poison, I guess.
Tyra Valeriano (03:28):
Yeah, I'm sure just having extra time keeps you
.
At least you're staying healthyon your off time, where many of
us would probably be drinkingbeer or doing something worse
with our time.
Anthony Shefferly (03:43):
I mean you could make an argument that the
stress that comes with all theother business stuff is probably
like is that on par?
Probably not, but you know.
But yeah, it definitely likethe.
You know what's the, what's thephrase?
Idle hands are devil'splayground, right.
So, like, if you provideyourself with like dead time to
do nothing, like I learned thatright away in like high school.
(04:04):
It's like in between sportsseasons.
You're like how do how doesthis?
Like, how do people deal withall this time?
Like, what do they do?
That's when you make mistakesis when you don't have a plan.
Tyra Valeriano (04:13):
Yeah, I agree, I want to jump into your
education, so your background inpsychology.
I'm curious what your or whatyou've observed to be the
biggest challenges that officersface when it comes to mental
health, and what kind ofstrategies have you maybe used
for yourself or suggested toother officers?
Anthony Shefferly (04:35):
That is a hard question to answer.
The biggest issue with mentalhealth.
It's usually a framing issue.
It's like what do you expectfrom the job and does it match
what you actually experienced?
So that's a lot of times when,in general, like what kind of
screws people up is?
Like they have an expectationand a frame right and it's like
(04:58):
this is what it's going to belike.
And then when you actually godo the thing, whatever that is,
it doesn't match it, and so it'sreal hard to like make peace
with the fact like this is notwhat I thought it was.
And then on a job like lawenforcement, where, like this
isn't what I thought it was, andI have to deal with all this
like high stress, high pressure,decision-making, uh, you know,
like seeing net the nastieststuff that life has to offer all
(05:20):
the time.
Um, if those things, if youcan't reconcile those things, it
can cause a lot of stresscoming to work.
And then when you pair that withI also didn't expect like all
the like the politicalinfighting that happens on the
job a lot of times too, and it'slike, man, this is really like
not what I thought it was goingto be at all and it's really not
(05:42):
what was kind of sold to me inthe academy and then anymore a
lot of times at least what Ithought it was going to be at
all.
Um, and it's really not whatwas kind of sold to me in the
Academy, um, and then anymore alot of times at least.
What I've seen in the last 17years is is police like
recruiting is shifting and theypaint a picture that isn't what
the job is and it's like peoplethink it's all going to be uh,
like meet and greets and and, uhand and you know everybody
loves each other and we're gonnahigh five cops and it's like,
(06:05):
unless you're a PIO or an SRO orsome position where you can be
more of a social figure, that'snot gonna be your life here,
right?
This is not gonna be how it goes, and if you're expecting that
and then you get met with abunch of shit, that is not that
right.
It ain't gonna go well, youknow.
Tyra Valeriano (06:26):
So how is staffing in Indiana right now?
I mean, are you guys prettyshort staffed?
What's it like over there foryou guys?
Anthony Shefferly (06:33):
I mean, I think everybody's short staffed
and it doesn't matter how wellstaffed you are, like you're
always going to be at likeminimum counts, especially for
the road, like like that'salways going to be the case.
But as far as recruiting goes,like our recruiting numbers are
abysmal.
They're terrible.
Like, just to put it in context, like you know I'm I work in a
500, 500 man department and whenI was applying in like 2005,
(06:57):
2007, right, we were getting2000, 3000 applications for you
know, 20, 30 spots and now thesame size class, we're getting
two, 300.
I mean, it's really bad and youcan make the argument that it's
the way that we recruit is veryold, that people don't use the
internet really to like market,which is insane to me, but also
(07:22):
like just the climate of nobodywants to do this job and going
back to pay, like we don'treally get paid that much.
So what's the benefit here?
There's no upside to it, youknow.
Tyra Valeriano (07:32):
I'm going to say that I'm not trying to disagree
with you, but I've been on theaspect of working for an agency
who pays very well and it'sfunny because even with good pay
, you know the officers arestill not happy.
Eventually that gets old andyou ask for more money.
You get more money, you'rehappy for a little bit and then
it just goes right back to whereit's at and it's just a
repetitive cycle.
(07:52):
It doesn't really fix anything.
But I will say that therecruiting part is part of the
reason why I think this podcastis important for people who want
to join law enforcement isbecause I want people to know
what I didn't know.
When I got in I thought, hey, Ican be a mom, single mom, with
my two kids, I'm going to be arole model and this is going to
be great.
And that is not what it is.
(08:13):
It's completely just a facadeand it's not that easy.
You know I'm not saying that itcan't be done, but there is
rose colored glasses on theprofession and there are a lot
of things that I know.
We don't like to talk negativeabout the job because we love it
, but there's a reality thatnobody's talking about and right
now the generation that'scoming into law enforcement.
(08:35):
I think that they just don't putup with shit, like they don't
want to put up with it.
You know they're just like hey,you know what, this isn't for
me, this isn't what they told me.
I'm out Like I just, I justdon't care, and that's what
we're dealing with Now.
We're dealing with people thatdon't want to put up with it.
So if you're not honest fromthe beginning and you tell them
what to expect, they might stickaround and be like okay, well,
at least I know.
(08:56):
What.
Do you think about that?
Anthony Shefferly (08:58):
I think that that goes back to that framing
aspect and I think that's ahundred percent accurate.
So, like just framing aspect,and I think that's a hundred
percent accurate.
So like just just touching onthe money, the money issue,
you're totally right.
Like culture is is moreimportant than money.
As far as like recruiting goesRight, that that is for sure.
If you set a culture whereyou're telling the truth and
you're showing people what thejob is and and everybody's on
board for the mission, likeyou'll get people.
(09:19):
But the the issue with themoney is like if I have like,
let's say, like I had to rewindRight, I got a master's in
psychology, I can absolutely myearning potential going in
another route is much, muchhigher, right, so like you have
to make sure that the earningpotential is on par with private
sector work.
That's number one, otherwiseyou just won't be in the
conversation.
(09:39):
So you've got to be in theconversation.
But as far as um framing thingsin in rose colored glasses,
like yeah, that that happens,especially with recruiting um,
so I think it's really just like, are you on board for the
mission?
You know like here's themission and then here's the
reality of it too, cause, likeyou shouldn't get into this
(10:01):
profession thinking that you'renot going to have stress and
tragedy, like you're gettinginto it because of the stress
and tragedy.
Honestly, same thing with with,like emergency room nursing and
stuff like that.
Like you don't get into it tohope that every day is clean,
right, you want to get dirty.
And if you don't know that andaccept that, like you're doing
it for the bad stuff, toexperience the bad stuff, so
(10:23):
that then you can go home andyou can see your kids and see
your spouse and see the peoplethat you love and you can
experience the good, the goodside of things in a way that you
couldn't if you didn't see thedeath and destruction that life
has to offer.
So if you frame it in thatcontext and you expect it to
happen, it's not an if ithappens, it's a when.
It's a when somebody's going totry to shoot me, when somebody
(10:46):
is going to commit suicide infront of me, when I'm going to
have to pull a trigger onsomebody.
Those things are going tohappen or you're going to see
them like face to face.
It's going to happen, right, ifyou frame it that way and then
you know that on the back endyou're going to be able to like
live in both worlds.
Then it becomes a really reallycool thing, very cool Like.
(11:07):
Very few people experience that.
But if you don't understand thedichotomy and how to balance
that, it can wreck you.
Tyra Valeriano (11:14):
Yeah, I agree with that.
When did you get your master'sin psychology?
Were you already a policeofficer at that time?
Anthony Shefferly (11:20):
Yeah, so I actually timed it up.
So I graduated with my master'sand then went right into the
academy.
Tyra Valeriano (11:26):
Okay, so you kind of already had a good head
on your shoulders and youalready knew some of the aspects
that most people don't know.
Know because you have kidsgoing into the academy 20 years
old and they have no idea abouteven life in general.
So you kind of had a head start, would you say?
That's fair.
Anthony Shefferly (11:47):
I would say that my education head start was
yes, but I graduated with mymaster's at like 25, 26, got
into the academy about the sameage and, like you just said, you
got 20-year-old kids.
I graduated college, got mymaster's.
I had some decent lifeexperience because I didn't get
(12:07):
hired right away.
I had to grind, I had to applyfor like that was post 9-11.
So everybody wanted to be a cop, right.
That's why we had so manypeople still um, so it wasn't
easy getting hired.
But uh, but yes, but I wasstill really young when I got
hired.
So like I stepped in, uh, tonsof piles of shit along the way,
you know.
(12:27):
So it's not like like you haveto learn that stuff and having
the education behind it helpsyou put context with it.
It but yeah, you got to learnlife as you go.
Tyra Valeriano (12:40):
You know there's a lot of officers that deals
with trauma different.
I haven't ever been one to seesomething very traumatic and
then go home and have nightmaresabout it, and I know that
there's people who do havetraumatic experiences like that.
Because of your experience ingeneral being a police officer
and your education, have youbeen able to deal with things
(13:03):
that are traumatic on your ownand figure out how to work
through them, just because ofthe knowledge that you had from
your education.
Anthony Shefferly (13:12):
Yeah, it definitely helps you understand
the mechanism, right?
So it's like it's just likegetting injured at the gym,
right?
Let's say I go and I'm doingbench press and I blow a pack.
I'm like, all right, well, whydid this happen?
So that I don't do it again?
So you give it time to recover,you figure out why you did it,
and then, and then what, whatthe mechanism is, so you don't
do it again, right?
(13:32):
So like, oh, I need to set myshoulders and drive with my lats
, like that'll make sure thatyou don't like like stress that
pack.
And mental health isn't anydifferent.
Like, if you understand themechanism of trauma, how your
mind is organizing the threatand how you, how you continue to
organize threats external tothat original thing, that that
was real Right.
(13:52):
If you do that all the time,that's you know that's a trigger
, right, your trigger, and thenthat that causes the, the
anxiety and and all that stuffto kind of snowball.
So if you understand how themechanism works, you can have a
way better time of like, of ofrewiring the circuitry in order
(14:12):
for it not to occur, versus ifyou don't understand the
mechanisms and you don'tunderstand how your brain and
your mind are working and howthat like and how that also ties
in with your physiology, thenit's going to be a lot harder.
It's going to feel like youdon't have as much control as
you do.
Tyra Valeriano (14:29):
Okay, what about fitness?
I mean, you've been doingfitness for how long?
Anthony Shefferly (14:35):
Um since I was five since you were five.
Okay, so you obviously know,even back through, like sports
and middle school, high school,that kind of stuff, like yeah,
like for my whole life,basically.
Tyra Valeriano (14:47):
Okay, so you know the importance of of
staying fit and healthy.
And when you got into thisprofession, what do you notice
about police officers and theirhealth?
Anthony Shefferly (14:59):
So law enforcement is like a microcosm
of society, right, Witheverything, with divorce rates,
with obesity rates, like theyall kind of match the general
population.
But the issue with lawenforcement is that everything
we do is exaggerated because ofthe intensity of the job, right?
So if, if a normal populationdivorce rates are like 50%, ours
(15:19):
are like 70%.
Obesity is, like, you know, 60%, ours are 80%.
So we're always like a biggerversion, like an, like an
exploded version of of the thelike general society.
Um, so, yeah, we're, I mean,over overweight and obesity I
think it's like 80%, likecombining those two.
I think just obesity, it's atleast 50 to 60% of law
(15:43):
enforcement.
And that's that's insane, right,that's that's completely insane
.
That, uh, that that moredepartments are not taking this,
more cities, more agencies, thegovernments that hire these
people dump hundreds ofthousands, if not millions, of
dollars in training.
Right, I can't.
I've been on a SWAT team for 14years, all the training that
(16:04):
I've had, and there's, we don'teven have a physical yearly to
make sure that we're physicallyhealthy enough to do the job.
So from an investmentstandpoint, that's terrible.
That's terrible.
Why would you not make surethat the investment it's like a
car, like you get the oilchanged, you check that out.
When it breaks, you take it toa mechanic, but for some reason
you're going to dump hundreds ofthousands of dollars in
(16:25):
training into these, into thesehighly trained officers, and
then just be like, yeah,whatever, Like we're not going
to check any ever again, Likewe're going to we're not going
to care about your health, likethat's.
Tyra Valeriano (16:44):
that's crazy.
Yeah, I've noticed thatagencies are giving incentives
actually to do that test yearly.
So instead of it beingmandatory, it's an option and of
course, people are drawn tomoney so they'll do it.
But most people won't becausethey can't.
They can't pass it, so they'renot going to do it.
But that's how they're doing it, incentivizing it versus
actually mandating it.
Anthony Shefferly (16:59):
So when we're talking about mandating things
like fit tests like that's awhole can of worms, that now
we're talking about unions andnow we're talking about like on,
like a bunch of stuff right,you can't argue is the fact that
we want to make sure that weare healthy enough to do the job
period right.
So we're talking about likebase level physical and like a
(17:20):
stress test.
Just go and check your heart,walk on a treadmill, make sure
you don't have any like heartblockages that are making you a
time bomb on the street, right?
Um, because my time on, I thinkour department's lost three
officers, all cardiac related.
So we train, you know, drivingand fighting, shooting, but
we're losing cops left and rightto cardiac related events and
nobody's saying shit about that.
(17:41):
Um, so the fix for that, thefirst, the first step in the in
the fix for that is making surethat you just get your cops a
physical every year, that's itRight, and then you can start
building from there.
But if you don't even check tosee if they're healthy enough to
walk on an inclined treadmill,like there's nowhere to go from
there, you have to set that asthe baseline.
(18:01):
Hey, we just want to check yourhealth and make sure you're
good, and our fire departmentactually has that as a thing
that they do every year Mostfire departments do.
They make them take a stresstest, they strap them to the
electrodes, they have them walkon the treadmill and that has
saved in my time here, probablythree to five firefighters that
were like 90% blockages.
They take them in for doublebypass right away and they saved
(18:23):
their lives.
I've seen it.
So why aren't we doing the samething?
I don't know.
Tyra Valeriano (18:29):
That's a good question.
I want to say when I was in lawenforcement, I had a hard time
being able to eat food, so Idon't know that I would have
been able to get overweightbecause we were just so busy and
I felt like I was starving mostof the time.
Anthony Shefferly (18:44):
Well, that was my theory.
And it.
Well, and that goes back tostress management.
Like I would say that if, if,Dan, correct me if I'm wrong but
if, if you are stressed, whatdo you do personally, Like, do
you eat when you're stressed ordo you not eat when you're
stressed?
Tyra Valeriano (19:00):
When I'm stressed, I go to the gym.
I think that's something that Igot from being in the career is
just going to the gym, and it'sjust been something I've done
since, but I would say, maybebefore, that maybe comfort
eating would have been a thingthat I used to do prior to the
career.
Anthony Shefferly (19:17):
Yeah, so you know.
I mean, if you just look at itfrom a stress management
standpoint on the job, off thejob, busy, not busy Like you can
always find cookies and donutsand shit food, hyper palatable
food that's super high calorieto deal with stress.
Like if you deal with stressthrough food, like you'll do it
on the job and off the job withstress through food.
Like you'll do it on the joband off the job If you don't
deal with stress food, uh, andyou manage it some other way,
(19:38):
whether it's healthy orunhealthy, like that will
mitigate weight gain or couldanyway, uh.
And then you talk about, like,like cycles of like, well, you
might be too busy on the job,but there's at least 12 hours
off the job every day that youhave to consume as many calories
as you want, you know.
So, like, do you want to knowwhat?
Tyra Valeriano (19:55):
I was doing on those 12 hours.
Well, yeah, I wanted to sleep.
I don't know.
I think most I can't speak formen, but I would say most women
need at least nine to 10 hoursof sleep.
I was dying If I could not getmy rest on my days off.
I was just a freaking piece ofcrap for my family.
I just couldn't function Right.
(20:17):
Just a freaking piece of crapfor my family.
I just couldn't function right.
So I had to take one day and Ididn't even have that.
To be honest, what advice wouldyou give to officers that are
looking to better their health?
Let's say they're in asituation where they know that,
hey, I am overweight or I'mthinking I have a health problem
.
I haven't checked it out.
What?
What's a good start for them?
Anthony Shefferly (20:34):
Uh well, the I'm glad you mentioned sleep.
Like sleep is is is kind of anand like sleep and schedule,
right?
Um, number one thing that Ihear from cops is I don't have
any time, which which in thisjob sometimes is true, right,
like I don't have time to get tothe gym five days a week for an
hour and a half sessions.
That's probably true, you knowwhat I mean.
(20:55):
Like I don't have that and Ihave my gym in my garage.
So, uh, like what's the hack?
Right?
Um, you look at your schedule,whether you write it down on
paper or have it on a, like aGoogle calendar or whatever and
then you, you set yournon-negotiables and you set your
sleep first, right, regardlessof how much sleep you need or
want, want or like you have toset a consistent bedtime and a
(21:18):
semi consistent wake up time.
Right, those things have to beregular.
And then you set your workouttime and then you set your meal
times and then, like, you planthese things and then you just
start chunking away at it.
You try to be as consistent asyou can.
But, like sleep recovery, uh,making sure that you're
consuming protein and moving,and like that's like the lowest
(21:39):
hanging fruit.
Um, you know, to start to startmoving in the right direction,
it doesn't have to be anythingcrazy.
I'd love to say like I have thebest program by my program, but
like they're all kind of thesame, like move more, sleep more
, uh and and eat more protein.
Therefore, you'll have lessroom for junk food.
You know, if you're focusing onjust wild card is like make
(22:00):
sure you're hydrated, right, ifyou do those things, you'll
start, you'll start to haveprogress and you just do it the
best you can every day and ifyou do that like you'll be all
right, you'll get there.
Tyra Valeriano (22:09):
Yeah, all jokes aside, um, you know, I I
definitely feel for the lawenforcement community when it
comes to health, but when I leftI had this nervous system
reaction and I've talked aboutit on past podcasts.
But I was in a constant stateof stress because this is what
(22:29):
we're living through during ourcareer every single day.
It's nonstop and after yearsand years of doing it I felt
that I just couldn't shake itoff.
So it goes kind of past evenjust the physical part of things
or just eating right andgetting enough sleep.
It goes into that stressmanagement and how we're
handling stress.
So I know you asked me earlierhow do I handle stress.
(22:50):
I want to say that most policeofficers would say I go to the
gym or, you know, I drink a beeror whatever they may do.
Have you found anything thatyou would suggest to officers
that might be listening, what ismost beneficial for you or what
might help them in stressmanagement tactics or techniques
(23:10):
?
Anthony Shefferly (23:15):
I think that you kind of alluded to it.
There's not one tactic that'sgoing to work best.
Right, because you can say thegym is best, but at the same
time, like going and working outsometimes is too much stress.
Like if you go and you work outhard every day and then you
burn it down at work every dayand then you're like I'm super
stressed out, I'm going to dotwo workouts today, like that
probably is not a good idea.
If you're already training thatmuch, you should probably find
(23:36):
a different tactic in order toregulate your nervous system.
So, really, like when youmentioned nervous system
regulation, that's the biggestthing, whether it's like breath
work or ice bath or justlearning how to like or go for a
walk.
I don't like stuff that youlike to do that you know is
going to bring you down into aparasympathetic state.
Right, that's going to bereally impactful for stress
(23:58):
management.
We are all good at goingsympathetic, fight or flight.
All of us right, and reallymost of us enjoy that.
That's why we want the jobright.
We want to drive fast, we wantto fight people, we want to do
stuff that's going to, that'sgoing to send us sympathetic,
because that's fun.
You know it's exciting, uh,it's that, that dopamine, that
(24:25):
that adrenaline that you knowthat whole system gets activated
and it's and it's super cool.
Um, the downside to that is, isthat, like, usually, usually
personalities that like thatstuff, uh, also like, um, oh,
recreational activities thatalso do those things?
You know, uh, crossfit, jiuJitsu, I love both of them Right
.
Wonder why, uh, what else?
Driving uh motorcycles fast,you know, like, like, doing
stuff like that, like racingcars, like, um, all that stuff
(24:46):
is all super sympathetic.
Now the trick is figuring outhow to manage that nervous
system and bring it down,because you can't spend all day
in sympathetic states or youhave, like, your nervous system
will be dysregulated and thatdoesn't help anything.
Tyra Valeriano (25:03):
Yeah, and the reason why I bring that up is
just, I mean, I experienced itand this is something that I
wouldn't have known unless Ileft, and nobody tells you that
it's one of those things.
You know, you have these rosecolored glasses.
Nobody's telling you that, hey,you need to learn how to get
back down to your baseline.
You know, when you're, whenyou're on your high at work and
you're just your adrenaline'spumping, you have to learn how
(25:25):
to regulate your system.
And so, because this issomething that you kind of have
some experience and knowledge in, I was curious what your point
of view on that was.
Yeah, that's really interestingthat that you you, so you didn't
notice that regular that thatnervous system response until
you left Was that and I want tosay I've been out of law
(25:45):
enforcement now for two and ahalf years and I want to say the
past three months is probablythe most steady that I've been.
Uh, when I first got out, Imoved to Thailand, which I don't
know if I told you that, butit's like paradise here.
There really is nothingstressful.
I mean, what else could I askfor?
Right To completely change myenvironment, and I was literally
(26:07):
looking for stress andeverything.
And it's not because I wanted tobe stressed, I just couldn't
help it.
I just felt like that's what mybody needed and it was draining
me, trying to find a reason tobe just upset or just out of out
of balance.
That's how I felt.
So, because I went through this, I want people to know and
understand and maybe have someguidance on how they can manage
(26:29):
that while they're in the career, because when they do get out,
this is something that they'regoing to probably experience if
they don't work on it now.
Anthony Shefferly (26:35):
Yeah, so so there's a lot to unpack.
There actually is like allright, so you, you gave up, you
gave up that that job, right, sothat provided you with all of
that stress and stimulation andall that exciting things, um,
that come with being a cop, andthen it's gone.
So your body is already preppedto deal with it daily, even
though you don't have it Right.
So it's expecting that stressresponse and uh, and it's not
(26:59):
there.
So then you start looking foryour body wants to make things
like set the same right.
So it's like all right, I'mgoing to start, I'm gonna start
fights or conflict or go seekout these things and that's how,
like, that's how, uh, that'show affairs happen, that's how,
like all these like high risk,uh, like dopamine seeking things
happen.
Is we get so used to that thatstress and then we want it and
(27:19):
we think it's normal in our body, kind of like requires it
almost.
So like, how do we?
How do we fill in the gaps?
How do we?
How do we manage that and bringit back down, especially
because you said like thattransitional phase out of the
job is super difficult for a lotof people.
It happens in law enforcement,happens in military, for sure.
I even saw it playing collegefootball, like there were guys
(27:41):
that did not transition awayfrom the game well at all, and
uh, and that's that's adifficult thing too.
So it's this role transitioninto a new thing and then, to go
along with that, you can alsolook at it and say like, well,
why'd you start your podcast?
Well, you look for a newmission, right.
You look for a new adventure,and if you don't have something
that you're kind of liketransitioning into at least a
rough idea, um, it makestransitions very difficult, and
(28:05):
then you start slipping intodepression and anxiety, and I'm
sure that was part of it too.
Tyra Valeriano (28:10):
You know, for me I I don't know I kind of have a
skewed perception on um how Ihandle what I would call
depression or something.
I try to really utilize myenvironment to not go there.
I've been through a lot, justlike everybody else has, and we
all handle things differently,but that's another topic that we
(28:30):
could probably touch on isdepression in law enforcement
and how people are dealing withthat.
There's a stigma, and you'vebeen in for 18 years, so I'm
sure you you come from a timewhere nobody talks about
anything.
You keep it to yourself.
You need to be a man, you needto tough it up.
This is what you signed up forand that's kind of what we're
dealing with now and things arechanging and this is at the
(28:53):
forefront, where we're trying tobring the awareness, not
necessarily because we wantpeople to think that you know
you have to talk about it, butit's an issue.
Anthony Shefferly (29:01):
Uh, it depends on the person and it
depends on the way that youcompartmentalize.
So, like, compartmentalizationis like critical, we all do it,
right, you all have to.
Like, you can't break down on ascene, right, you have to stuff
it somewhere, right, you haveto deal with it, you have to
manage it.
And, uh, some people are betterat that, some people are worse
at that.
Um, but, uh, but there's,there's a, a, a price to be paid
(29:24):
, you know, and it it just itdepends on when and how.
Um, because, like you know, whatI see most times is like,
especially with men, right, it'slike, well, you have to tough
it up and be a man.
Well, there is some truth tothat.
We cannot take that away andsay that you need to talk about
everything.
Sometimes you don't have theright to break down right now.
You got to man up and deal withit.
(29:46):
That's what you need to do.
And then, on the back end ofthat is where you have to learn
how to process things and stuffit down, put it away, deal with
it, and then, in your own time,like you got to figure out how
to unpack that and kind ofprocess it.
And what happens is likeespecially for I'm speaking from
experience, right, uh, fromfrom a male standpoint like
(30:10):
those things that you stuff downand put away can change over
time, right?
So the stuff that I saw mysecond year on, third year, on,
fourth year on is not I don'tview it the same way as the
stuff that, like, as as I do now, looking back on it they mean
different things as you age andyou mature, and then you look
back and you're like, man,that's a, that's a that doesn't
feel the same.
You know so there's a price tobe paid and it could be 20 years
(30:33):
from now, you know.
So it's like how do youcontinue to evolve and process
these things and make meaningout of them?
You know, like there's a lot tobe said about putting meaning to
seemingly meaningless acts ofviolence, like that's the
biggest thing that I've seen.
That kind of like messes peopleup is like when they can't make
(30:54):
sense of you know a kid beingkilled or a family getting wiped
out by a semi.
Like you can't make sense ofthat stuff but at the same time
you have to try to put it insomething that makes sense in
your brain as to why it occurred, or the whole world is going to
seem dark and awful andmeaningless.
It's like we're all just hereand then we die, which isn't the
(31:15):
case.
Tyra Valeriano (31:18):
Right.
Do you have plans to retireanytime soon?
Anthony Shefferly (31:22):
We'll see.
So you know, 20 years is comingup and, like you talk about
that transitional phase and it'slike you know I would like to
see every cop, at 20 years orwhenever your retirement is able
to be pulled, that you have anoption to move into something
else.
You know you can stay if youwant, but if you want to get out
, like move into something else.
And that's where you know theonline stuff that I'm doing
(31:43):
right now, the experience that Igained running a gym and owning
a gym, you know, with 250members, like those are things
that I am looking at buildinginto and having a possible, you
know, move out.
Tyra Valeriano (31:59):
So, yeah, okay, I have a lot of officers that
are always well when they leaveor retire.
They're always like I can't doanything else but this job, and
I think we've all been there andI can tell you that it's
crossed my mind probably abillion times that I want to go
back to being a police officerand I know that I'm really,
really good at it and that'sprobably the best thing that I
can do.
(32:19):
But in reality, when you startto look at all the things that
we do as cops and you translateit, it's just a word.
Really it's just a word.
If you were to translate it tocorporate world or whatever it
is that you want to do, afteryou get out, you can really do
anything.
(32:39):
I mean, we get a lot ofexperience and we probably just
have no idea how to change thewords.
We're so stuck on our jargon.
You know, oh, um, I interviewedthis suspect versus okay, that
could be translated to, I don'tknow, customer service.
But we're just stuck in ourjargon.
So when we want to get anotherjob or we want to try something
new, nobody wants us becausethey don't know what that means,
they don't know what we'retalking about and they don't
(33:00):
care.
Anthony Shefferly (33:01):
Yeah, that's absolutely true, and I actually
I sent a message out on ourunion board because everybody's
bitching about the same oldstuff we always bitch about we
need more money.
These guys don't respect us andI just kind of said, like,
listen, we have a lot ofskillsets that we can take to
the public sector and we canleverage these things like in a
public or in a private sector,I'm sorry, you know, we can
leverage these skills that wehave privately and we can make
(33:23):
money.
You know this, this is a job.
It is a, it is a cool job, butit is not the only way that we
can make money, you know.
And we, we do get stuck on rolesand titles.
And this is who I am.
Right, this is my identity,based on the fact that I've been
a cop for 17 plus years.
Right, this is who I am.
I'm a SWAT team guy and, uh, asmuch as I love those roles,
(33:45):
they are temporary and uh, andonce you really break that down,
then you, then the job doesn'town you as much, right?
Um, 2020 was a big like.
I had some big revelations thenwhere it was like what are you
willing to do to stay part ofthis job.
Are you willing to take agovernment ordered you know
(34:06):
vaccine, or are you willing toenforce mandates that you don't
agree with, Like a lot of peoplewere like, I have to keep this
job.
And it was like okay, this it'sa job, it is a cool job and it
is an identity, but it's atemporary one and all of us are
going to have to give it up atsome point, right?
So use the job, gain theskillset, leverage it you can to
(34:29):
make your mission possible, andif it matches with the agency,
cool.
And if it doesn't anymore, seeya, I'll take my skills
somewhere else.
Tyra Valeriano (34:38):
So what is leadership like in your agency?
I don't want to pinpoint youragency specifically, obviously,
but a lot of agencies areexperiencing the same thing.
They have leadership problemsand a lot of the morale is down
because of well, let's justblame everything on leadership.
Is that kind of what you haveexperienced in your career?
Anthony Shefferly (35:00):
All right.
So you're talking aboutgovernment, right, and this is
not just my agency, this isevery agency, because everybody
I talk to all over the country,even in Canada, it's really the
same shit, right?
When you have people that areappointed politically, it will
never be fair.
It will.
It's always who's buddies withwho who politically needs to be
(35:21):
here.
For what reason?
Are they qualified?
Probably not, maybe a couple,but probably not.
So is what it is right.
And then they're going to putpeople in charge who maybe
aren't qualified or maybe youdon't like.
This is really what it is Like.
I don't like those people.
It's like, okay, are theyqualified or not?
Well, I don't know, because Idon't like them.
And then that filters down.
So when you have people thatare appointed and not
(35:44):
merit-based, that becomesproblematic, but that's the
structure we have.
So when you look at leadership,leadership has to occur, like
Jocko Willink says, at everylevel.
Right?
So you have the ability to leadas a patrol officer or as a as
a you know, a corporal or asergeant, like, whatever your
low level, you know lower level.
(36:04):
Um, like, leadership positionsare like you have the ability to
lead at every level.
And if you don't take thatownership, then, like it doesn't
matter what those guys at thetop really do.
Like if I'm going and I'm I'mtaking my calls one at a time,
and I have the ability to leadthe new guys right as just as a
patrolman but I've been on for17 years, right, so like I have
(36:26):
the ability to lead them basedon just how I act and how I
approach them Right and myattitude, and then I have the
ability to lead up the chain tothe sergeants if I need to.
You know like that kind ofstuff happens.
But if, if we just look at theguys up top in the ivory tower
and we're like those guys suck,like they're always going to
suck, they're not designed to begood, right, so this is the
(36:46):
structure we have, so deal withit and learn how to lead better
at your level.
So if you have the opportunitythen to get promoted, to rise up
to the ivory tower, maybeyou'll do a better job.
You know, like that's all youcan do.
Tyra Valeriano (37:00):
I think the problem that I've seen and this
is just from experience is thatthat mindset is really good to
have, but you know you're goingto be going up against the grain
eventually in your careerbecause you're going to be
leading and you're going to bedisagreeing with the people that
are above you and you're notgoing to get anywhere just
because, like what you said,politically it's just, it can't
change in certain areas and nomatter how much you want to go
(37:24):
in there and make a differenceand be like hey guys, I got your
back, I'm going to do this.
Anthony Shefferly (37:33):
I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.
It doesn't usually work outthat way, so that is an
opportunity in order to, like,flank and communicate Right.
So if you run into a wall andyou keep running into the wall,
how many times are you going torun into the wall before you're
like I got to find a way aroundthis wall or over this wall, I
can't go through it?
You're talking to people andyou're in a leadership role and
it's like they say, no, this,you're not doing this, or no,
whatever.
(37:53):
Like you get denied flat.
It's like okay, well then I needto go back to the drawing board
.
If I really believe in what itis that I'm presenting, then I
need to figure out a way torepackage it and come at them
from an angle to make themunderstand, like, my point of
view better.
Right, and if I and, however, Ineed to do that, that's that's
my job in learning and leading.
(38:14):
It's like I have to lead mypeople, not by being just a
blunt object and smashingthrough the wall.
Like, even if you win, likewhat's going to be on the other
side of that?
Like you're just going to beknown as an absolute bulldozing,
and maybe that's appropriate,but probably, probably not.
Like you, you probably ought tofind a way to kind of flank
that and figure out how tocommunicate better.
Tyra Valeriano (38:34):
I'm going to say that I do think that
communication is a huge problem.
But even if you're a goodcommunicator as a leader, you
can't make another leader be agood communicator.
You can't make them understandsomething.
So, no matter how many timesyou do something over or how
many times you go back to thewriting block and you're like,
hey, I need to do it this way orchange it up, if they're not
(38:56):
understanding and they choosenot to understand, you will
never get through that rock wallor around it or over it,
because you cannot change theother person.
You know what I mean.
So I feel like that's kind of aproblem that a lot of leaders
are facing, and maybe notleaders, maybe patrol feels it
the most.
They feel it the most when theleaders are not communicating
(39:16):
effectively and they're bumpingheads because you can't change
each other.
So if one's hey, I'mcommunicating really well, I
know I am and the other one'snot taking it for what it is,
it's just never going to goanywhere.
Anthony Shefferly (39:28):
You can't change other people, that's
absolutely true.
But what you can do is you canseek to understand their thought
process better, right.
So it's like all right, I can'tstand this guy.
I can't stand the way heoperates.
I don't like the way he leads.
Like he's my direct supervisor,though, like I can learn to
understand him so that I can,one, work with him and then, two
(39:48):
, I can understand how hecommunicates, why he thinks the
way he does, so that when I needsomething or when I want
something, I can package it in away that actually makes sense
to him.
You know, um, and we'll get yousomewhere.
I don't know, maybe, maybe not,but at the same time, you're
learning that skill set becauseit will pay off in the future.
Maybe, with your kids, you knowwhat I mean.
Like that skill set because itwill pay off in the future.
(40:09):
Maybe with your kids, you knowwhat I mean.
Like, all right, I'm seeingthings.
I'm trying to understand peoplebetter in order to understand
their thought process, who theyare, where they come from.
You know all these differentfactors that lead them to
believe the way they do, even ifit's super rigid and doesn't
make sense.
It's really stupid, right?
So, like I understand whythey're stupid, right, so that I
can better communicate withstupid people, so we do that.
(40:29):
We do that on on runs all thetime.
We do that on calls for service.
We go to people that that arehighly stressed and not educated
and probably drunk, right.
So now we need to seek tounderstand, like, what is
causing them to act this way andhow do we figure out a way to
fix this, right, you know, andthere's a million different ways
to do that.
Tyra Valeriano (40:47):
So Well, we're running out of time and there is
a question that I like to askall of my law enforcement guests
and really your answer iswhatever you want it to be, but
I want it to be for listeners togain some insight on what they
can take into perspective andmaybe change in their career.
What would you tell your rookieself, based on your experience,
(41:09):
to do differently now that youknow what you know?
Anthony Shefferly (41:13):
My rookie self um, slow down a little bit,
probably, like you don't needto burn down everything all at
the same time.
Right, there's time to do it.
And uh, looking back, I think Iwas actually told that by
people and I disregarded it.
So like, yeah, I think that'smost of us, yeah, and that just,
(41:36):
and that just comes with age,but uh, but yeah, you'll
actually buy yourself more timedoing cool stuff If you just
just slow down a touch.
You don't have to run headfirstand everything.
Slow down a little bit, featherthe gas, you know, and and then
and then move.
You know probably that.
Tyra Valeriano (41:51):
That's good advice, I would say I agree with
that, and whoever listens, Ihope they take that advice
because, like you said, somebodytold you once upon a time and
you didn't listen, and I'm suresomebody told me that too Okay.
So if the listeners want tomake contact with you or ask you
any questions, maybe even aboutyour coaching you do fitness
coaching Okay.
If they want to make contactwith you or ask you any
questions, maybe even about yourum coach you you do fitness
(42:11):
coaching Okay.
If they want to ask you anyquestions about that, or maybe
even pick your brain atpsychology or what you think
about law enforcement, how canthey contact you?
Anthony Shefferly (42:19):
Um, so probably the best way is
Instagram.
Uh, it's Anthony underscore.
Heroic industries, uh, orheroic industries on Instagram.
Both of those are fine, those,those both go right to me.
And then I also have a schoolcommunity and it's an online
training platform that's totallyfree for law enforcement first
responders.
If you want to link to that,then I can totally get it to you
(42:41):
through Instagram, or I don'tknow if I can give it to you and
you can post it up, but that'stotally free.
Tyra Valeriano (42:45):
Yeah, I can do that.
Okay, yeah, that would be thosewould be the best ways, okay,
well, thank you so much, anthony.
I appreciate your time.
Thank you for your expertise.
I really enjoyed today'sconversation and for the
listeners, thank you for tuningin, for your continued support
and everyone, be safe.
We'll see you on the next one.
Thank you for joining me onchapter blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
(43:08):
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!