January 15, 2025 • 51 mins
Charles Heasley, a former Texas law enforcement officer, stands as a testament to resilience and transformation in the face of adversity. Grappling with toxic leadership and mental health challenges during his time on the force, Charles' journey is both harrowing and inspiring. We talk about his unexpected exit from law enforcement, and how internal job stressors led him to a critical point, contemplating suicide. Yet, with unwavering support from his family, faith, and friends, Charles found the courage to pursue a new path, now dedicated to improving leadership and fostering mental health awareness across various sectors.
Our conversation shifts to Charles’ current mission: empowering leaders to develop the skills necessary for effective leadership. Too often, individuals are promoted based on time served or specific competencies, but lack the comprehensive training to lead. Charles shares how his experiences have highlighted the need for accountability and trust in leadership roles, and how open, honest communication can prevent the perpetuation of negative cycles within organizations. His commitment to helping others navigate these challenges promises not only personal growth but systemic improvement.
Lastly, we talk about the often painful journey of confronting leadership obstacles and the emotional toll of feeling undervalued. Charles recounts his struggle with inadequate performance evaluations and the isolation it bred. Through his story, we discuss the importance of support from superiors, and how the lack thereof can lead to despair and discontent. Yet, Charles’ ultimate decision to leave his job for a more fulfilling future speaks volumes about the power of self-reflection and the pursuit of a healthier work-life balance. As we close, we express gratitude to our listeners, inviting them to share in future conversations about leadership, mental health, and the ongoing journey of personal growth in law enforcement.
Books Mentioned:
- "48 Law of Power" Robert Greene
- "The Law of Human Nature" Robert Greene
Contact:
- Charles@CharlesHeasley.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tyra Valeriano (00:01):
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Welcome back to another episodeof Chapter Blue.
(00:42):
Today, it is my pleasure towelcome my guest, charles
Heasley, who is an officer outof my home state of Texas.
Charles left law enforcementdue to toxic leadership and the
effects it had on his mentalhealth.
Now Charles runs a successfulleadership development and
coaching business while teachingfor a statewide police
association.
Thank you for joining me today,charles.
How are you?
Charles Heasley (01:02):
I'm doing great .
How are you?
Tyra Valeriano (01:04):
I'm actually doing good.
I'm sure it's late where you'reat, so I appreciate you joining
me today.
Tell me a little bit about yourjourney in law enforcement.
I know you had 10 years.
What was that like for you?
Did you work in the state ofTexas the whole time?
Charles Heasley (01:18):
Yep, all in the state of Texas.
I actually started with anagency.
I got recruited into it.
I never thought I was going tobe a cop.
I was a classical guitar majorin college and my friend
recruited me to an agency andthat agency really treated me
(01:38):
really well.
It was really hard to leave,but there was an opportunity in
a larger agency and made thedecision.
I went to the larger agency,was there for about two years
and then promoted to sergeant.
(02:08):
Interesting thing happenedbecause I saw that just in
general in our professionthere's really not a whole lot
of accountability when it comesto leadership development, and
so I figured that if I was goingto develop as a leader I kind
of had to take the reins into myown hands.
So I enrolled in a master's ofexecutive leadership program and
I also another pivotal thing atthat time we had an informal
(02:28):
mental health program and thesergeant over the program was
going to be retiring shortly.
So I put my hand up and saidI'd love to, you know, get
involved in this, and a fewyears later I ended up.
That became a full timeposition for me, sergeant over
mental health and other otherthings as well.
(02:50):
And then, you know, eventually,the the job took a toll and it
wasn't in the way most peopleexpect.
When I talk to people and theysay, oh my, your job must have
been so stressful and and allthe the horrible things, and you
know the community's perceptionof you, I said you know, stress
is really a multi-dimensionalconstruct and different things
(03:16):
affect people differently, andso, yes, while the street itself
, uh, could be very I mean, I'veseen some things, as I know you
have, that required therapy.
Quite frankly, really, it wasthe internal stressors, the
administration, that actuallyalmost led me to suicide and
(03:39):
eventually I just decided thatyou know what of that, you know
what?
I am not going to allow myselfto be a victim and I have
something more to give the world.
I'm sure of it and I'm going togo all in on it.
Tyra Valeriano (03:53):
Wow, thank you for sharing that.
Considering that you were incharge of the mental health
aspect of the program that youhad in your agency and you kind
of fell under that spectrumwhere you felt suicidal, how did
that work out for you?
Were you able to utilize someof the tools that you were
giving to the officers, or wasthere a different way that you
(04:15):
had to deal with that?
Charles Heasley (04:17):
So my role?
You know I served on the peersupport team as well.
I didn't lead that, that was aseparate entity, but my role was
more of the community mentalhealth.
So we partnered with our localmental health authority, the
court system, you know, adultprotective services and anyone
(04:40):
in anyone, hospitals, anyoneconnected to mental health from
a community standpoint, becausewe were seeing that, you know,
people get involved in thecriminal justice system and
sometimes it's not because theywant to necessarily.
Sometimes it's a result of thebehaviors that manifest due to
their mental illness, to theirmental illness Uh, and so our,
(05:08):
our mission was really to tryand find the best outcomes for
them, um, and and avoid justrotting away in the criminal
justice system, uh,unnecessarily.
I, all my resources wereexternal.
Uh, I have my very close friendof mine was actually running
the peer support team.
Uh, knew what was going on withme mentally.
Not I didn't share the suicidalpart with her and you know I'm
(05:32):
fortunate I've got a strongfamily, strong faith.
It was more of an internalepiphany.
I guess my mom had passed awaya few years ago or a few years,
two years prior to this and uh,I, just something about that
really affected me, uh, the wayI saw life, uh, the, the length
(05:53):
of life, how, how fragile andhow short it can be.
And, um, yeah, I actuallyreached out to my department,
the senior leadership, uh,asking for help, um and help,
and was flat out ignored, so Ihad to do everything on my own.
Tyra Valeriano (06:12):
What steps did you take to get resources?
Because obviously you mentionedyou were a sergeant and that is
what I left.
Also, I was a sergeant in myagency when I left and I noticed
that there was not a lot ofresources to offer officers
aside from the EAP program, andI've talked about this before in
(06:33):
previous episodes.
But being that you were in asimilar situation, where did you
go for that help?
Charles Heasley (06:40):
Really just family and my faith, my friends.
It was one of those thingswhere I well knew the
consequences of letting peopleknow my thoughts and the dark
place I was in.
And I trusted some people at myagency very, very deeply still
(07:02):
friends to this day, very, verydeeply, uh, still friends to my
to to this day.
But the the stuff that I wasdealing with because it was an
organizational structure,organizational challenges uh,
there was nothing really in thesystem for me.
Uh, it wasn't like I mean Icould have easily asked my peer
(07:23):
support colleagues for areferral.
I, I personally knew some.
I had visited a policepsychologist before, so I knew
that there were resources outthere.
Unfortunately, I just I didn'tfeel like I was going to be
supported.
Well, I was not supported in myagency and I really didn't want
(07:45):
to.
I guess I wasn't ready to makeit known.
Tyra Valeriano (07:50):
Kind of curious how did your experience?
Obviously this is kind of whatled you into your business,
right?
Charles Heasley (07:57):
Yeah, so, like I said I, ended up enrolling in
a master's program and got mymaster's in executive leadership
.
When I took over or not tookover when I raised my hand for
mental health.
Part of that responsibility waswe taught a 40 hour course on.
It was a mental health peaceofficer course At the time.
(08:20):
It was not mandatory in thestate of Texas.
At the time it was notmandatory in the state of Texas.
There was another agency.
Whenever they would come to ourcity to teach, they would open
it up to all sorts of differentagencies.
We would send peopleno-transcript.
(08:42):
It's one of the best thingsthat I ever attended.
But then, being a sergeant withthis program, I was tasked with
learning the program and, to theextent where I could teach it
and the state ended up making itmandatory for our licensing and
then they ended up making itmandatory for recruits in the
(09:02):
academy.
And then they ended up makingit mandatory for recruits in the
academy.
So I got tapped on the shoulderto teach that.
So I taught our agency and therecruits.
Our agency actually still hasan academy in-house for recruits
(09:26):
.
That is not just our agency butfor others.
And so I said, hey, you knowwhat?
I know?
There's a lot of officers inthese five agencies who need
this for licensing.
I'd be happy to host classes sothat everyone can get the, you
know, get through this course,so they're not in danger of
losing their license, and thenalso teaching the recruits, and
(09:49):
so I was putting on, you know,five or six classes a year, and
I really I don't know yourbackground that well as a
sergeant A lot of our sergeantstend to get tasked with teaching
but I really loved it, Iabsolutely loved it, and even
though police officers are notalways the easiest students to
teach and I learned this from acolleague years ago that there's
(10:13):
three kinds of participants inany kind of training that's,
your hostage, your vacationerand your adventure, and I've,
I've had all three in my classvacationer and your adventure,
and I've, I've had all three inmy class, and my goal has always
been I don't really care whereyou start at, but by the end of
it, I would love for you to bean adventure, and I think that a
(10:33):
lot of people realize that thisstuff was actually going to
help them in their career, keepthem safer and also keep the
citizens safer.
So I was teaching this and I,right after I graduated with my
master's degree, I got asked bythe city's HR department to come
in and talk to them aboutcommunication and what we were
(10:55):
teaching the police a smallprogram.
I went in and, uh, you know, Ihad the month before graduated
with my master's degree and asI'm teaching it I'm realizing,
oh my gosh, so much of thiscommunication stuff really
applies.
I'm I'm using this already inmy leadership with my team and
(11:19):
so, you know, I'm in with HRprofessionals and I'm I'm on the
fly relating the principles ofcommunication that we teach to
leadership.
That got me an invite to comedo another program that was
released citywide to leaders,and it was actually during that
month that I nearly took my ownlife and I realized, you know
(11:44):
what.
I don't think this is accidental.
I don't think that I nearlytook my own life and I realized,
you know what I don't thinkthis is accidental.
I don't think that I've beengiven this opportunity to teach.
I don't think I've been, youknow, given the idea of going
for higher education for noreason, and the reviews I got
from HR and from the officers byand who had been through the
(12:06):
course was overwhelminglypositive.
So I thought, you know, maybethis is what I'm supposed to do.
Tyra Valeriano (12:13):
I had a lot of conversations with retired
officers during the podcast anda lot of them always talk about
your why and honestly, I'veheard it, I've never really put
much thought into it.
And now that I've started thispodcast, I've come to the
conclusion my why when I gotinto law enforcement and why I
(12:37):
am no longer in law enforcement,and this is maybe your why.
Maybe this is what led you tothis new adventure.
What is your perspective?
That changed from being in lawenforcement and to taking this
new role focusing on mentalhealth?
Charles Heasley (12:55):
Initially, when I left, I thought I was
supposed to do communicationsand training on crisis
recognition intervention intraining on crisis recognition
intervention, and as the yearshave gone by, my business model
has shifted more so intoleadership, which is where I
feel like my sweet spot is, andit was a realization that I had
(13:24):
when I was in that dark placethat I was, that I chose, I was
choosing not to be a victim, andI realized that I was a
casualty, and it was like I wasa casualty of a system.
And so now what my why is mypurpose is?
I know that there are so manyleaders out there, so many
organizations out there, thatthey don't want bad leaders.
(13:45):
The leaders themselves don'twant to be bad, but oftentimes
they're there, they grow up inthe system and they they don't
know any other way becausethey've only seen it one way.
And when I started telling thisto people, I learned I heard
over and over again well, thatdoesn't just apply to law
enforcement.
That's this business, that'sthis.
We deal with this in hospitals,we deal with this in these
(14:07):
kinds of organizations too, andso one of the groups I work with
, uh in in the private sector,we talk about MBA, and that is
not your master's of businessadministration.
That is a manager by accident.
Oftentimes, you know, in lawenforcement we might take a test
, there may be a selectionprocess, but in a lot of
(14:30):
organizations I think lawenforcement even included people
get promoted because eitherthey're a good individual
contributor or they've beenthere long enough and have
enough seniority, or they're,just frankly, better than the
alternative, and that doesn'tnecessarily make them qualified
to be leaders.
And so they become leaders andthey try to avoid the bad things
(14:54):
that they experienced fromtheir leaders and they try to do
the good things to model fromthe leaders who have been
exemplars for them.
But there's so much more to it,and the great thing about
leadership is it's a skill thatcan be taught for those leaders
who genuinely want to becomegood leaders.
So the real evolution for mewas I was a casualty of a system
(15:18):
, and while I would rather nothave experienced that, I think
it was a blessing that I did,because now my purpose is so
much greater.
My mission is really to helpother leaders become the best
versions of themselves so thatthey don't leave casualties in
their wake.
Tyra Valeriano (15:35):
That's great.
Are you focused on lawenforcement now or do you focus
on other branches of leadersoutside of law enforcement?
Charles Heasley (15:45):
So right now it's a mix.
I do work with law enforcement,I guess about 20% of the year.
I do a lot of work in thepublic sector.
I'm starting to branch out intothe private sector as well, but
yeah, it's mostly public sectorright now.
Tyra Valeriano (16:02):
What is it that you're seeing with all of these
leaders, whether it be in lawenforcement or outside, in the
private sector?
What is the biggest strugglethat they're having?
Charles Heasley (16:11):
um, as you're teaching this, this course, or,
you know, conducting theseclasses, If I had to narrow it
down to one thing, I would sayaccountability, um, and and I
and I'll, I'll.
I'll put this in the context ofof.
From when I took my firstformal leadership development
program as a Sergeant, um, itwas required, my, my name was
(16:36):
added to a list.
Uh, we now have SergeantHeasley, um, and now, because
he's a Sergeant, he has to takethis course and that course and
that course.
And now, because he's asergeant, he has to take this
course and that course and thatcourse.
And I remember asking people inmy organization what am I
supposed to learn from thiscourse?
And I'm super excited about it.
It seemed really comprehensiveand it was pretty well said to
(16:58):
me that this is a check the boxtraining.
You go because your name's on alist, and that really bothered
me quite a bit.
Because the agency is investingmoney for me to be there.
I'm going to be gone forseveral weeks.
That means other people have tocover my shift.
There has to be something morethan check the box.
And when I teach leaders in allsectors not just law
(17:22):
enforcement, but in all sectors,I'm I asked them are will you
be supported by your agency withthese, with these concepts and
um.
I think a lot of people come tothese classes and by the time
they leave as adventurers, theywant to, they genuinely want to
Um.
But the biggest challenge thatI have seen so far is that the
(17:45):
system.
Tyra Valeriano (17:48):
When it comes to accountability holding people
accountable it tends to be oneof the biggest challenges would
say that they probably wouldagree that they feel that
leadership either doesn't takeaccountability for what they're
(18:08):
supposed to be doing or somehowthere's always a big weight on
leadership and theirresponsibility for how an agency
is doing.
What is it that your course orwhat you teach contribute to how
leaders can attack that kind ofperception?
(18:28):
Or is it more of just changingthe way they do things to gain
trust, you know, from those thatare beneath them?
Charles Heasley (18:37):
Yeah, that's a great question and I wish I had
the answers what.
My approach is that everyonehas a boss.
Even if you are a leader, youhave a boss.
I mean even running my ownbusiness.
I feel like I'm stillaccountable to my clients and
and and and whatnot.
But in in the agencies, whetheryou're a Sergeant or Lieutenant
or whatever rank you are, uh,you have a responsibility to
(19:01):
gain the trust of your followers, uh, of the people who directly
report to you, and if you're amid-level leader, you know all
down the ranks.
At the same time, trust withoutaccountability, I, I people
have to know that there is astandard, that there is, that
there are curb lines, we, we canoperate within these curb lines
and if we feel trusted to do soand we feel like we have some
(19:24):
autonomy and and and and youknow some skin of the game,
people want to work, there's I.
I can't tell you how many timesI have seen recruit officers.
I've been there recruitofficers who they they go to
their old board and they're likeI'm going to change the world
and you know this is going to begreat.
(19:45):
And then, two to three, four orfive years down the road, we
find them sitting under a treecard up with another officer and
it's like, well, how does thathappen?
And it's because, really,there's a lack of trust and a
lack of accountability.
So what I want to do, if at allpossible, is empower leaders to
take over what they can.
(20:09):
One of my most respectedlieutenants that I ever worked
for.
She referred to it as we canonly control our piece of the
pie.
When we say the word control,it's not that I necessarily have
direct control, but I havedirect influence.
If I can positively influencemy piece of the pie, I really
don't necessarily have to worryabout everything, but I am
(20:32):
responsible for my piece of thepie.
When it comes to managing up, Idefinitely think that a lot of
the concepts that we teach canbe applied in giving people
confidence on how to have thoseconversations.
I made a lot of mistakes when Iwas in law enforcement.
Um, I, I, uh.
(20:52):
You know I'm.
I have been told that I cameacross as arrogant when my, my
whole outlook was I just want todo the best I can and lead the
best team I can and be the bestsergeant I can.
I have zero desire to makeanyone feel threatened.
(21:13):
All I want to do is do my job,and so I have learned that the
way I came across, uh, maybe youknow now.
I know things that I didn'tknow then and I would.
I would definitely considerthat in my approach, but I try
(21:36):
to.
I try my best to be a source ofencouragement for those leaders
for when they need to have thosedifficult conversations with
their bosses, because,unfortunately, difficult
conversations are a thing, theyhappen, they're necessary, and I
personally believe that one ofthe flaws with the system and
(22:00):
this is an evolution, I don'tknow exactly when it started,
but one of the flaws in thesystem is that when there's a
lack of communication, things gopoorly, and we don't like
communicating properly toughthings to each other, and nobody
really trains you for it.
(22:21):
So when I tried to havedifficult conversations leading
upward, the response that I gotwas that I was the most
difficult for this oneparticular person, that I was
the most difficult Sergeant thatthey'd ever have to supervise.
I was really devastated by thatcomment and I I said, well, I
don't, I don't really want that.
I would love for us to worktogether.
(22:42):
Now here's where I see aproblem, right, because I go to
this person and I say what can Ido differently?
How can we work better together?
And their response to me was Ithink this is just the way it's
going to be.
Tyra Valeriano (22:57):
You know, I've had that, maybe not very similar
.
We call that the yes man right.
You have your leaders who areyes men, and that is the ideal
person to be in charge of, and Iwas not a yes man, yeah, so I
feel that you know when peoplespeak up and and maybe there
(23:20):
isn't all yes men, maybe there'sjust people who don't care to
bring the conversation up,because sometimes you're just
coasting and you just want toget through your day, go home
and be done with the job goesback to what you said
communication, and a lot ofleaders, at least in law
(23:41):
enforcement, are probably fromthe older generation, right?
So I like to call it the stigma.
You know, we do it this way andthis is the way we've always
done it, and I'm sure that inyour time of doing your business
and teaching leaders, you'vecome across these people that
are leaders and they are likethis is the way we're going to
(24:04):
do it, this is the way it'salways been done.
How do you get across toleaders like that?
How do you break through thatwall?
Charles Heasley (24:10):
That's quite challenging because, you're
right, the yes man is the onewho is the easier person to
supervise, and in my experience,what I've witnessed is that a
lot of the yes people not justmen, but a lot of the yes people
those are the ones whooftentimes get the coveted
(24:31):
positions or the you knowwhatever.
Whatever is the desiredassignments, the promotions in
some cases.
Whatever is the desiredassignments uh, the promotions
in some cases.
And so one of the one of theconcepts that that I teach often
in law enforcement and alsooutside of law enforcement, is
the concept of followership andthe.
(24:51):
The main model that I use is isfrom Robert Kelly, who, in 1988
, wrote a article in the HarvardBusiness Review called In
Praise of Followers, and herates people by the level of
engagement.
They're either disengaged orthey're actively engaged, so
(25:11):
there's a spectrum of engagement.
And then, on the other axis isthe use of independent critical
thought.
Independent critical thought itdoesn't mean that if somebody
is low in this level thatthey're stupid or that they
can't use it.
It's that it could be the case,but in a lot of cases they
choose not to use that level ofindependent critical thinking.
(25:32):
What the obvious answer thatwe're looking for is we want
people to feel like they'reexemplary followers, that
they're actively engaged butthey're also using high levels
of independent critical thinkingand that's your exemplary
follower.
And those people are very toughto lead because those are the
people who will respectfully sayI don't know that that's a good
(25:55):
idea right now.
There's a difference between acritical incident and you know
I'm giving a direct order on thestreet.
You know you need to go do this.
There's a difference betweensaying I'm not so sure about
that and in the walls of thepolice department, when
decisions are still being made,when tough conversations have to
be had, there is a differentkind of courage needed.
(26:18):
There's a courage on the streetand there's a courage in the
walls of the police department,and exemplary followers have
that courage.
Conversely, when we talk aboutpeople who are high levels of
engagement but low levels ofindependent critical thought,
those are your conformists,those are your yes men, those
are your yes women.
Those people are a lot easierto lead because they'll do
exactly what you say.
(26:39):
They won't challenge you, they.
They know that if they do, uh,they will be put in the out
group.
And the unfortunate thing aboutthat category is, while those
people can be easier to lead.
They're never going to come tome and say I really think we've
(26:59):
got an opportunity here, or I'vesee that there's a problem here
, or uh, may I respectfullydisagree with those people will
never really come to you and saythose things and, as a result,
over time the organizationbecomes stagnant and it is a
good old boy system becomesstagnant and it is a good old
boy system.
So really empowering people totake on the role of the
(27:21):
exemplary follower, um and andsaying, hey, this requires a lot
of courage.
I, from experience, cautionthem.
You have to choose your battleswisely.
You have to be respectful whenyou disagree.
You have to realize that anykind of disagreement you do will
(27:41):
be taken as a threat.
It will potentially put you inthe outbox or the outgroup.
So you have to be veryintentional about how you
approach these conversations.
And leaders don't like change.
There's a saying in lawenforcement, right.
There's two things cops can'tstand.
That's change.
(28:06):
Or when things stay the same,right.
And so leaders, you know, likeyou mentioned earlier, one of
their favorite phrases isbecause that's the way we've
always done it, I try toencourage people, have the
courageous conversation whenit's appropriate.
No, you know, pick your battleswisely.
Ideally, you will have built upsome trust with your leader and
invested in that relationship.
But you also have to know thatthere is no magic formula and
(28:27):
you may have a conversation likethat where the answer is
because that's the way we'vealways done it or because that's
just the way it's going to be.
Tyra Valeriano (28:37):
You know, I had a experience as a sergeant where
I was the only female sergeantat that time and I was the one
who wanted to make change.
And if you, of course, maybeyou can relate.
But when you get promoted andyou envision the way you want to
be a leader, you go in withthese ideas that you're going to
tackle and you are going tocreate this massive change that
(29:00):
you've been waiting for, right?
That's the idea that I had, andI remember going to my
lieutenant because there was anissue on patrol, which there's
always issues on patrol.
Patrol always has complaintsand being that I had come from
patrol, I felt it was relativeto address these issues and see
if we can come to some kind ofresolution.
(29:22):
And you know, what ended uphappening is I brought these
issues to the forefront and said, hey, this needs to be
addressed and we need to find aresolution, because this is a
continuous problem.
They're not happy and this iscausing the morale to be very,
very low.
Problem.
They're not happy and this iscausing the morale to be very,
very low.
(29:42):
And once it was addressed, Ifound out about a week later
that this supervisor went aroundasking all the other sergeants
hey, is this a problem for you?
Do you feel like this is aproblem, you know, for patrol?
And then came back to me andsaid hey, well, nobody else
agrees with you, this isn't aproblem.
So it was shut down and, to bequite honest, I felt like that
was a loss of trust for me withmy supervisor, because I went to
(30:06):
him with a problem, not onlywith a problem from patrol side,
but a problem that I alsoexperienced on patrol side.
So it wasn't just hey, Tyra ismy supervisor now Let me come to
her with this complaint.
It's something that I alsoexperienced and it was once
again, just kind of blown to theside.
So this is just one of thosethings where it goes into the
(30:28):
communication is is everybody onthe same page or is everybody
going to be a yes man?
Because you go in there wantingto make change and then it just
doesn't happen.
And I feel like this is whereleadership comes into that wall,
or there's a wall there.
They come in with these greatplans and this great you know
idea that they're going to makeeven a dent in change, and they
(30:51):
get hit with that wall and nowthey have no motivation to do it
.
So here we are back at squareone, and nothing changes.
Charles Heasley (30:59):
Now they have no motivation to do it.
So here we are back at squareone and nothing changes.
Changes scary.
You know, anytime thatsomething is brought to a leader
an idea, a plan there is achallenge there, because that
means all the time it means thatthere will be additional work
on that leader that you bring itto and we get very comfortable
(31:23):
in our routines, we flourish inthe system that we grew up in
and so those, anytime somebodylike you will come to a senior
leader with a, with a challenge,with an idea, the immediate
response is often no.
And it's not necessarily aplanned no.
(31:48):
It's not that they want to sayno or that they completely
disagree with what you're saying.
It could be that they think, oh, there's just going to be more
work on me, or they may not gettheir senior leader support.
You know there's often ranks,additional ranks that may need
to get involved in some problems.
I mean, I remember there were,there were some times where I
(32:11):
was, I came with a, with aproposal, and you know I was
told all right, we'll do someresearch, put together an actual
proposal.
You know they had a form.
It would be eight, 10 pageslong.
I think I would create aPowerPoint, I would do all this
research and they would listen.
Sometimes they would listen, atleast before I really got to
(32:34):
the end there, to the end there,and, um, you know, the answer
was often no, and and I, I knewI knew that going into it.
But, uh, I was very fortunate,at least with the assistant
chief we had at the time.
I was very fortunate that hewas willing to listen.
Um, you know, things change.
Uh, you know the, the systemthat I was in, uh, you know I,
(32:57):
it was a brand new unit and soI'm coming with all these ideas,
all these needs, and I, at thetime, I had no idea how
overwhelming I was.
I had zero idea that I'm comingwith, you know, I need soft
uniforms, I need unmarked cars.
You know, I need this, I needthis kind of training.
And I had no idea that everytime I came to them I
represented a problem because itwas additional work or they
(33:20):
were going to have to make anask and um, and so I think again
, I went.
When I coach people, when I,when I teach them, I I really
try to help them understand howcritical it is to plan for that
conversation and plan for thatReally it's a threat response.
Um, the, the in this situation.
They went around and askedpeople, but I, the way you say
(33:43):
it, the first thing that itmakes me think of is that maybe
the way it was worded orprompted was um, they were
expecting the to hear that.
Oh no, this is fine, there's noproblem here.
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind.
Tyra Valeriano (33:56):
Yeah, and you know it's.
It's nothing against thatparticular leader, it was just
an experience that I had and atsome point I feel like it goes
back to accountability.
Right, this leader is in chargealso of patrol and it kind of
reflects that leader.
So if they hear from otherplaces that, no, there's not a
(34:17):
problem, or, you know, maybeother sergeants just didn't want
to deal with it, if there is aproblem it's going to reflect on
them and then it's a biggerproblem, right?
So what better way to get youknow that affirmation that, hey,
no, this is not a problem,we're doing fine.
And just to have that onesergeant who's saying, no, this
(34:38):
is a problem, that doesn't meanthat the problem doesn't exist,
just because other sergeantsaren't agreeing to it.
I mean, there has been voicesthat were limited because, or
they weren't heard, becausenobody else said anything.
I feel that this pressure, youknow where you do have leaders
that go to their leaders lookingfor resolutions, or you know a
(35:00):
way to solve a problem and itdoesn't get solved, and they're
constantly knocked down orthey're constantly giving or
receiving feedback that this isnot what we want you to be doing
.
This is not.
You know what we're looking forin a supervisor.
It can really beat them downand they may think that they're
not doing a good job.
But there may be some peopleout there who are experiencing
(35:25):
the same thing and maybe theyfeel like they can't be related
to in any way.
Charles Heasley (35:31):
What I've found in my story is that when I
share it with people, all thedetails would be much longer
than the scope of one episode ina podcast.
So, um, but when I tell, when Itell the story, it's it's
almost surprising how manypeople are like, wow, I, I have
(35:51):
felt almost the exact same wayand for a variety of different
reasons.
Uh, but in our in in lawenforcement, it's just, you have
to be very careful who you talkto about certain things and who
you show vulnerability to.
In my case, the beginning ofthe end was really the creation
of this full-time unit, and Ithink when it was built, there
(36:14):
was really good intentions onthe composition of the unit.
I went from having a very shortchain of command in the mental
health side to now having fourpeople in the chain of command
above me Ideas that I would have.
I had been going, I was, I wasthe subject matter expert.
I was also the only one who putin for it, because it was, it
(36:34):
was going to be such acomplicated position to start
with.
I really needed a lot ofsupport.
I needed, I needed a chain ofcommand who really backed me,
and I didn't feel that and I wasreally put in an interesting
place where I had the ear ofsenior officials, not only in
the police department but in thecity.
(36:55):
There were meetings I wasmandated to be at with other
high-level people in the city.
I didn't ask to go to themeetings, I was mandated to be
there.
Looking back on that experience, I'm very grateful.
But also, while I had that, Ihad, I felt, zero support from
my chain of command.
Uh, the chief, a hundredpercent.
(37:17):
I believe he had my back.
I believe he still does.
Uh, but the the rest of thechain of command, um, I felt
like I had no support.
That plus the expectations thatwere me on me and my team.
Uh, I, my phone number was givento the city hall.
Um, you know, the the citymanager.
(37:39):
Well, the deputy city managerhad my number.
Um, you know, all sorts ofpeople had access to me.
All seven chiefs had access tome.
Um, and I remember multipleoccasions where I'm sitting in
my office and I'm swamped andI'm getting a call from one
chief on one phone, a call fromanother chief on another phone,
(38:01):
an email from somebody else.
That's very important and then.
So all these things arehappening and they need stuff
fixed yesterday, and so I feltoverwhelmed with all this
responsibility.
And then I go to my boss and Isay, hey, I'm really feeling
overwhelmed.
Is there any way I can get somesupport for this or that, or
you know?
(38:21):
And that's when I, when I wastold that I was a difficult
Sergeant it was multiple timesbut, um, I really started to
feel like I, there, there was nosuccess.
You know, and and I teachleaders all the time we have to
define what success looks likefor these.
If you're a Sergeant, yourofficers need to know what that
looks like.
How, how can they succeed?
(38:43):
Because if they don't know,then they're going to be
constantly stressed.
I had a lot, of, a lot ofpressure from me from above, uh,
from from senior leaders and,um, I, I really didn't realize
it at the time, but the the waythat I was asking for things and
the way I was trying to buildthis unit.
I believe that I came across asa threat to my chain.
(39:06):
I wanted to do the best I couldfor the city and my my team,
but I was.
I was constantly under the gunand constantly being scrutinized
.
This was 2021.
So I get my performanceevaluation.
(39:30):
There's a lot of other stuffthat can go into the story too,
but this is really the key, andmy boss had written in there
that I almost was rated as needsimprovement for interpersonal
communication, which I thoughtwas funny because my role was
interpersonal communication.
You know, I was therepresentative for our
(39:52):
department to the city.
Um, I had strong connectionsand and all not all, but most of
the city.
Uh, you know cause?
We had to work with the firedepartment and the parks
department and the libraries andall this, all the different
departments that were related towhat we were doing.
I had to work with otherorganizations.
I had to work with the County.
I had to work with the mentalhealth authority hospitals I'm
(40:16):
the one going out and, oh, and,by the way, I'm teaching police
officers and recruit officershow to communicate in crisis.
And yet you're writing in myevaluation that I almost needed
improvement because I had totell somebody that we were not
going to be able to handle theirum, another, like patrol, had a
mental health thing sometimesand they would say, hey, can you
take this off our plate?
(40:36):
And so I would respond becauseit would not always meet the
criteria for uh, for triage.
Uh, you know, and I wouldprovide other resources.
And so I was.
I was.
I was a problem for myLieutenant because other people
were complaining about you know.
I think the words were that Ididn't play well in the sandbox,
or something like that.
Then I, then I was.
There was other portions on thisevaluation that I was surprised
(40:59):
at too.
For example, I was rated asmeets expectations and
leadership and I I said, well,it doesn't make any sense.
I, I've been tasked withforming and leading a brand new
unit.
Some of these officers arewinning awards from the county.
The county says that we're someof the easiest people to work
with, that they have.
I mean, I can't speak for them,but you might ask with them if
(41:22):
I'm a decent leader or not.
The community sees me as aleader.
I have a master's degree inleadership.
I teach leadership for the city.
So what else would I need to doto be rated as exceeds
expectations Initiative?
I was rated as meetsexpectations and initiative and
I said, boss, I've formed, youknow, built this unit.
(41:44):
I'm constantly trying to makeus even better.
I'm writing policy.
I'm doing all this trainingthat I don't necessarily have to
do, but because I know thatthese officers licenses not
necessarily in jeopardy, but wewant to get this off their plate
as soon as possible.
There were several other othercategories and I said is there
any way we can talk?
(42:04):
Because I, I, I feel like I'mworking as hard as I can to make
this team, to make thisorganization as good as possible
and and and as as as valuableto the city as possible.
I don't feel like I have yoursupport and I don't feel like I
(42:24):
have the chain support.
Is there any way we can talkand to to so I can figure out
what it is I need to do tosucceed?
And he says again um, that'sjust going to be the way it is.
Slides my performanceevaluation back to me.
So sign here in in any otherorganization that I'm aware of,
in in in the city, in the city,if you have a, if you had
(42:52):
disagree with your performanceevaluation, you can, you know,
contest it basically, and thenext level leader has to review
it.
So in this case, it would havebeen the deputy chief and the
police department.
That's not how it worked.
I could write a rebuttal andthe only person that had to read
it was my Lieutenant.
I could write a rebuttal andthe only person that had to read
it was my lieutenant, the onewho wrote it, and then it goes
(43:13):
into my file.
In other words, zeroaccountability.
So I was told the performanceevaluation was a done deal, it's
closed, we're moving on.
I said okay.
So I did what all people do whoare ready to end their career,
and I wrote in a memo and thememo was addressing where I
(43:40):
thought the evaluation wasincorrect.
And on the eighth page of thememo I requested to meet with my
chain of command because I didnot believe that I was being
rated fairly.
But I didn't ask to meet withthem about that.
I figured the evaluation was adone deal.
I asked for two things, and twothings only.
The first thing I asked for wasto form a training plan for my
(44:02):
unit.
I had taken over and they hadno additional training beyond
the regular patrol officer inmental health, and I wanted to
get them some additionaltraining hostage negotiation,
things like that to betterprepare them for their role.
The second thing I asked forwas a meeting with my chain of
command so that we could all geton the same page, because I was
(44:24):
under so much pressure theywere basically knocking me down
every time I tried to get up andI didn't know what to do.
I was in such a dark place.
I was doing the best I couldand I was not.
Nobody would even listen to me.
Nobody would sit down at atable and say, charles, here's,
here's how you're messing up,here's how you're not meeting
our standards, here's what weexpected to do.
(44:46):
I submitted the memo and this isabout the time when I was
teaching that course for thecity, the leadership course, and
two weeks goes by, and it'sduring this two weeks Now I've
seen my chain of command atvarious functions.
During those two weeks theydidn't even acknowledge me.
(45:07):
In two weeks I'm freaking out.
I'm like what's going to happen?
What's going on?
It's during this period of timewhere I feel so lost and so
alone, like there's no hope.
And for people who have neverbeen suicidal, they don't really
understand.
They think that it's, that it'ssomething easy to you just get
over it.
And when you're deep in thathole and you don't know what the
(45:29):
other side looks like you just.
It's so lonely and dark.
And even though I saw my wifeevery day and my friends and
family, I was fighting thisinternal battle of just angst.
I I wanted so much to be a goodasset for the city and and to
be a good sergeant, and I was.
(45:51):
I was failing and I didn't knowwhy or how.
Two weeks goes by and I get anemail from my Lieutenant and you
know, oftentimes he wouldaddress me in an email, charles.
You know, blah, blah, blah,sergeant Heasley.
Number one your memo will beplaced in your file per policy.
Number two you can I forget theexact wording, but you can
(46:14):
develop whatever training plansyou want for your unit.
They may or may not be approved.
Number three your request tomeet with the chain of command
has been denied.
I went to a tailspin.
I couldn't even.
I couldn't believe it.
They wouldn't even meet with me, tara.
They wouldn't even meet with meto talk.
Yet I was put on these, these,these stages, these platforms
(46:37):
that were obviously important tothe police department, to the
city, and I'm telling you, I'mcrying out, saying I am
struggling, I want nothing morethan to do the best, and they
won't even meet with me.
I have the memo saved and Ihave the response saved.
I reached out to some mentors,some friends and, um, I tried
(47:03):
again, I tried to reach back out.
Um, there was no response.
So two weeks later I had hardconversations with my wife we're
walking away from an income anda pension and benefits and all
(47:23):
this but I knew that I couldn'tstay in this position.
I couldn't stay feeling like Iwas.
I didn't want to feel that wayanymore and, um, rather than
(47:43):
taking the ultimate, you knowand life ending decision, I mean
my, my finger was on thetrigger and the slack was pulled
out, like I was a pound ofpressure away from it being done
and I didn't want I mean, thankGod I didn't sneeze or anything
, but I was so close and I saidI can't do this.
So I asked internal affairswhat's the exit process look
(48:06):
like?
And that was in October of 2021.
I told them that I didn't knowwhen I was leaving, but it was
probably going to be in thespring of 2022.
This is October of 21.
There was no actual effort toretain me, no conversations,
(48:27):
except for one.
I gave them a 10 week notice sothat they could fill my spot
and that I could train myreplacement.
No effort to retain me.
So I was not underinvestigation.
I was not in like actualtrouble with the police
department.
I um, I showed up to thedepartment on my last day,
turning all my stuff and thatwas it.
Tyra Valeriano (48:48):
Wow, yeah, that's.
I'm sorry you experienced that.
That's a rough, definitely arough experience, and I'm pretty
sure there are some people outthere that can relate to some of
(49:17):
the experiences that you're intoday.
You are running your ownbusiness.
You are still teaching leadershow to be leaders, leaders how
to be leaders.
You're addressing the hardtopics that you know leadership
has a hard time addressing ontheir own.
If there is anything that youwould want to take out of your
(49:39):
experience as a whole and giveadvice from what would that be
to another officer?
Charles Heasley (49:45):
Hmm, I, it's so hard to narrow it down to one.
I think the one piece of adviceI would give is to study human
nature.
I've read the books 48 Laws ofPower and the Laws of Human
Nature by Robert Greene sinceleaving and I realized how many
(50:08):
mistakes I made because Iviolated simple rules of power
and human nature.
And do your best to understandhuman nature and do your best to
understand yourself.
I think that that my story.
I can point to so many examplesof where I messed up.
I didn't, I didn't make theright approach or whatever, and
(50:30):
I became a threat that I didn'twant to be, and I think that if
I had done more work tounderstand myself, I could have
avoided that.
And so I encourage you tounderstand human nature and
understand yourself.
Tyra Valeriano (50:42):
That's great.
Is there any way that listenerscan contact you or maybe look
up your business if they want totake a course with you?
Charles Heasley (50:52):
Sure, my best way to get a hold of me is via
email.
It's Charles at Charles Heasleydot com, and will you put that
in the notes.
Tyra Valeriano (51:02):
I will.
Charles Heasley (51:03):
It's for those who don't obviously know the
common spelling of HeasleySounds good.
Tyra Valeriano (51:07):
Well, thank you so much, Charles, for joining me
today and sharing your storyand also showing the way that
you were able to make a comebackand do something still great,
not only for yourself, but forlaw enforcement and leaders in
many areas, of all aspects.
I want to thank the listenersfor tuning in and supporting
(51:29):
Chapter Blue For everyone else.
Stay safe and we will see youon the next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
(51:50):
remember you're never in joiningan episode.
I'd love for you to be a partof the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Welcome back to another episodeof Chapter Blue.
(00:42):
Today, it is my pleasure towelcome my guest, charles
Heasley, who is an officer outof my home state of Texas.
Charles left law enforcementdue to toxic leadership and the
effects it had on his mentalhealth.
Now Charles runs a successfulleadership development and
coaching business while teachingfor a statewide police
association.
Thank you for joining me today,charles.
How are you?
Charles Heasley (01:02):
I'm doing great .
How are you?
Tyra Valeriano (01:04):
I'm actually doing good.
I'm sure it's late where you'reat, so I appreciate you joining
me today.
Tell me a little bit about yourjourney in law enforcement.
I know you had 10 years.
What was that like for you?
Did you work in the state ofTexas the whole time?
Charles Heasley (01:18):
Yep, all in the state of Texas.
I actually started with anagency.
I got recruited into it.
I never thought I was going tobe a cop.
I was a classical guitar majorin college and my friend
recruited me to an agency andthat agency really treated me
(01:38):
really well.
It was really hard to leave,but there was an opportunity in
a larger agency and made thedecision.
I went to the larger agency,was there for about two years
and then promoted to sergeant.
(02:08):
Interesting thing happenedbecause I saw that just in
general in our professionthere's really not a whole lot
of accountability when it comesto leadership development, and
so I figured that if I was goingto develop as a leader I kind
of had to take the reins into myown hands.
So I enrolled in a master's ofexecutive leadership program and
I also another pivotal thing atthat time we had an informal
(02:28):
mental health program and thesergeant over the program was
going to be retiring shortly.
So I put my hand up and saidI'd love to, you know, get
involved in this, and a fewyears later I ended up.
That became a full timeposition for me, sergeant over
mental health and other otherthings as well.
(02:50):
And then, you know, eventually,the the job took a toll and it
wasn't in the way most peopleexpect.
When I talk to people and theysay, oh my, your job must have
been so stressful and and allthe the horrible things, and you
know the community's perceptionof you, I said you know, stress
is really a multi-dimensionalconstruct and different things
(03:16):
affect people differently, andso, yes, while the street itself
, uh, could be very I mean, I'veseen some things, as I know you
have, that required therapy.
Quite frankly, really, it wasthe internal stressors, the
administration, that actuallyalmost led me to suicide and
(03:39):
eventually I just decided thatyou know what of that, you know
what?
I am not going to allow myselfto be a victim and I have
something more to give the world.
I'm sure of it and I'm going togo all in on it.
Tyra Valeriano (03:53):
Wow, thank you for sharing that.
Considering that you were incharge of the mental health
aspect of the program that youhad in your agency and you kind
of fell under that spectrumwhere you felt suicidal, how did
that work out for you?
Were you able to utilize someof the tools that you were
giving to the officers, or wasthere a different way that you
(04:15):
had to deal with that?
Charles Heasley (04:17):
So my role?
You know I served on the peersupport team as well.
I didn't lead that, that was aseparate entity, but my role was
more of the community mentalhealth.
So we partnered with our localmental health authority, the
court system, you know, adultprotective services and anyone
(04:40):
in anyone, hospitals, anyoneconnected to mental health from
a community standpoint, becausewe were seeing that, you know,
people get involved in thecriminal justice system and
sometimes it's not because theywant to necessarily.
Sometimes it's a result of thebehaviors that manifest due to
their mental illness, to theirmental illness Uh, and so our,
(05:08):
our mission was really to tryand find the best outcomes for
them, um, and and avoid justrotting away in the criminal
justice system, uh,unnecessarily.
I, all my resources wereexternal.
Uh, I have my very close friendof mine was actually running
the peer support team.
Uh, knew what was going on withme mentally.
Not I didn't share the suicidalpart with her and you know I'm
(05:32):
fortunate I've got a strongfamily, strong faith.
It was more of an internalepiphany.
I guess my mom had passed awaya few years ago or a few years,
two years prior to this and uh,I, just something about that
really affected me, uh, the wayI saw life, uh, the, the length
(05:53):
of life, how, how fragile andhow short it can be.
And, um, yeah, I actuallyreached out to my department,
the senior leadership, uh,asking for help, um and help,
and was flat out ignored, so Ihad to do everything on my own.
Tyra Valeriano (06:12):
What steps did you take to get resources?
Because obviously you mentionedyou were a sergeant and that is
what I left.
Also, I was a sergeant in myagency when I left and I noticed
that there was not a lot ofresources to offer officers
aside from the EAP program, andI've talked about this before in
(06:33):
previous episodes.
But being that you were in asimilar situation, where did you
go for that help?
Charles Heasley (06:40):
Really just family and my faith, my friends.
It was one of those thingswhere I well knew the
consequences of letting peopleknow my thoughts and the dark
place I was in.
And I trusted some people at myagency very, very deeply still
(07:02):
friends to this day, very, verydeeply, uh, still friends to my
to to this day.
But the the stuff that I wasdealing with because it was an
organizational structure,organizational challenges uh,
there was nothing really in thesystem for me.
Uh, it wasn't like I mean Icould have easily asked my peer
(07:23):
support colleagues for areferral.
I, I personally knew some.
I had visited a policepsychologist before, so I knew
that there were resources outthere.
Unfortunately, I just I didn'tfeel like I was going to be
supported.
Well, I was not supported in myagency and I really didn't want
(07:45):
to.
I guess I wasn't ready to makeit known.
Tyra Valeriano (07:50):
Kind of curious how did your experience?
Obviously this is kind of whatled you into your business,
right?
Charles Heasley (07:57):
Yeah, so, like I said I, ended up enrolling in
a master's program and got mymaster's in executive leadership
.
When I took over or not tookover when I raised my hand for
mental health.
Part of that responsibility waswe taught a 40 hour course on.
It was a mental health peaceofficer course At the time.
(08:20):
It was not mandatory in thestate of Texas.
At the time it was notmandatory in the state of Texas.
There was another agency.
Whenever they would come to ourcity to teach, they would open
it up to all sorts of differentagencies.
We would send peopleno-transcript.
(08:42):
It's one of the best thingsthat I ever attended.
But then, being a sergeant withthis program, I was tasked with
learning the program and, to theextent where I could teach it
and the state ended up making itmandatory for our licensing and
then they ended up making itmandatory for recruits in the
(09:02):
academy.
And then they ended up makingit mandatory for recruits in the
academy.
So I got tapped on the shoulderto teach that.
So I taught our agency and therecruits.
Our agency actually still hasan academy in-house for recruits
(09:26):
.
That is not just our agency butfor others.
And so I said, hey, you knowwhat?
I know?
There's a lot of officers inthese five agencies who need
this for licensing.
I'd be happy to host classes sothat everyone can get the, you
know, get through this course,so they're not in danger of
losing their license, and thenalso teaching the recruits, and
(09:49):
so I was putting on, you know,five or six classes a year, and
I really I don't know yourbackground that well as a
sergeant A lot of our sergeantstend to get tasked with teaching
but I really loved it, Iabsolutely loved it, and even
though police officers are notalways the easiest students to
teach and I learned this from acolleague years ago that there's
(10:13):
three kinds of participants inany kind of training that's,
your hostage, your vacationerand your adventure, and I've,
I've had all three in my classvacationer and your adventure,
and I've, I've had all three inmy class, and my goal has always
been I don't really care whereyou start at, but by the end of
it, I would love for you to bean adventure, and I think that a
(10:33):
lot of people realize that thisstuff was actually going to
help them in their career, keepthem safer and also keep the
citizens safer.
So I was teaching this and I,right after I graduated with my
master's degree, I got asked bythe city's HR department to come
in and talk to them aboutcommunication and what we were
(10:55):
teaching the police a smallprogram.
I went in and, uh, you know, Ihad the month before graduated
with my master's degree and asI'm teaching it I'm realizing,
oh my gosh, so much of thiscommunication stuff really
applies.
I'm I'm using this already inmy leadership with my team and
(11:19):
so, you know, I'm in with HRprofessionals and I'm I'm on the
fly relating the principles ofcommunication that we teach to
leadership.
That got me an invite to comedo another program that was
released citywide to leaders,and it was actually during that
month that I nearly took my ownlife and I realized, you know
(11:44):
what.
I don't think this is accidental.
I don't think that I nearlytook my own life and I realized,
you know what I don't thinkthis is accidental.
I don't think that I've beengiven this opportunity to teach.
I don't think I've been, youknow, given the idea of going
for higher education for noreason, and the reviews I got
from HR and from the officers byand who had been through the
(12:06):
course was overwhelminglypositive.
So I thought, you know, maybethis is what I'm supposed to do.
Tyra Valeriano (12:13):
I had a lot of conversations with retired
officers during the podcast anda lot of them always talk about
your why and honestly, I'veheard it, I've never really put
much thought into it.
And now that I've started thispodcast, I've come to the
conclusion my why when I gotinto law enforcement and why I
(12:37):
am no longer in law enforcement,and this is maybe your why.
Maybe this is what led you tothis new adventure.
What is your perspective?
That changed from being in lawenforcement and to taking this
new role focusing on mentalhealth?
Charles Heasley (12:55):
Initially, when I left, I thought I was
supposed to do communicationsand training on crisis
recognition intervention intraining on crisis recognition
intervention, and as the yearshave gone by, my business model
has shifted more so intoleadership, which is where I
feel like my sweet spot is, andit was a realization that I had
(13:24):
when I was in that dark placethat I was, that I chose, I was
choosing not to be a victim, andI realized that I was a
casualty, and it was like I wasa casualty of a system.
And so now what my why is mypurpose is?
I know that there are so manyleaders out there, so many
organizations out there, thatthey don't want bad leaders.
(13:45):
The leaders themselves don'twant to be bad, but oftentimes
they're there, they grow up inthe system and they they don't
know any other way becausethey've only seen it one way.
And when I started telling thisto people, I learned I heard
over and over again well, thatdoesn't just apply to law
enforcement.
That's this business, that'sthis.
We deal with this in hospitals,we deal with this in these
(14:07):
kinds of organizations too, andso one of the groups I work with
, uh in in the private sector,we talk about MBA, and that is
not your master's of businessadministration.
That is a manager by accident.
Oftentimes, you know, in lawenforcement we might take a test
, there may be a selectionprocess, but in a lot of
(14:30):
organizations I think lawenforcement even included people
get promoted because eitherthey're a good individual
contributor or they've beenthere long enough and have
enough seniority, or they're,just frankly, better than the
alternative, and that doesn'tnecessarily make them qualified
to be leaders.
And so they become leaders andthey try to avoid the bad things
(14:54):
that they experienced fromtheir leaders and they try to do
the good things to model fromthe leaders who have been
exemplars for them.
But there's so much more to it,and the great thing about
leadership is it's a skill thatcan be taught for those leaders
who genuinely want to becomegood leaders.
So the real evolution for mewas I was a casualty of a system
(15:18):
, and while I would rather nothave experienced that, I think
it was a blessing that I did,because now my purpose is so
much greater.
My mission is really to helpother leaders become the best
versions of themselves so thatthey don't leave casualties in
their wake.
Tyra Valeriano (15:35):
That's great.
Are you focused on lawenforcement now or do you focus
on other branches of leadersoutside of law enforcement?
Charles Heasley (15:45):
So right now it's a mix.
I do work with law enforcement,I guess about 20% of the year.
I do a lot of work in thepublic sector.
I'm starting to branch out intothe private sector as well, but
yeah, it's mostly public sectorright now.
Tyra Valeriano (16:02):
What is it that you're seeing with all of these
leaders, whether it be in lawenforcement or outside, in the
private sector?
What is the biggest strugglethat they're having?
Charles Heasley (16:11):
um, as you're teaching this, this course, or,
you know, conducting theseclasses, If I had to narrow it
down to one thing, I would sayaccountability, um, and and I
and I'll, I'll.
I'll put this in the context ofof.
From when I took my firstformal leadership development
program as a Sergeant, um, itwas required, my, my name was
(16:36):
added to a list.
Uh, we now have SergeantHeasley, um, and now, because
he's a Sergeant, he has to takethis course and that course and
that course.
And now, because he's asergeant, he has to take this
course and that course and thatcourse.
And I remember asking people inmy organization what am I
supposed to learn from thiscourse?
And I'm super excited about it.
It seemed really comprehensiveand it was pretty well said to
(16:58):
me that this is a check the boxtraining.
You go because your name's on alist, and that really bothered
me quite a bit.
Because the agency is investingmoney for me to be there.
I'm going to be gone forseveral weeks.
That means other people have tocover my shift.
There has to be something morethan check the box.
And when I teach leaders in allsectors not just law
(17:22):
enforcement, but in all sectors,I'm I asked them are will you
be supported by your agency withthese, with these concepts and
um.
I think a lot of people come tothese classes and by the time
they leave as adventurers, theywant to, they genuinely want to
Um.
But the biggest challenge thatI have seen so far is that the
(17:45):
system.
Tyra Valeriano (17:48):
When it comes to accountability holding people
accountable it tends to be oneof the biggest challenges would
say that they probably wouldagree that they feel that
leadership either doesn't takeaccountability for what they're
(18:08):
supposed to be doing or somehowthere's always a big weight on
leadership and theirresponsibility for how an agency
is doing.
What is it that your course orwhat you teach contribute to how
leaders can attack that kind ofperception?
(18:28):
Or is it more of just changingthe way they do things to gain
trust, you know, from those thatare beneath them?
Charles Heasley (18:37):
Yeah, that's a great question and I wish I had
the answers what.
My approach is that everyonehas a boss.
Even if you are a leader, youhave a boss.
I mean even running my ownbusiness.
I feel like I'm stillaccountable to my clients and
and and and whatnot.
But in in the agencies, whetheryou're a Sergeant or Lieutenant
or whatever rank you are, uh,you have a responsibility to
(19:01):
gain the trust of your followers, uh, of the people who directly
report to you, and if you're amid-level leader, you know all
down the ranks.
At the same time, trust withoutaccountability, I, I people
have to know that there is astandard, that there is, that
there are curb lines, we, we canoperate within these curb lines
and if we feel trusted to do soand we feel like we have some
(19:24):
autonomy and and and and youknow some skin of the game,
people want to work, there's I.
I can't tell you how many timesI have seen recruit officers.
I've been there recruitofficers who they they go to
their old board and they're likeI'm going to change the world
and you know this is going to begreat.
(19:45):
And then, two to three, four orfive years down the road, we
find them sitting under a treecard up with another officer and
it's like, well, how does thathappen?
And it's because, really,there's a lack of trust and a
lack of accountability.
So what I want to do, if at allpossible, is empower leaders to
take over what they can.
(20:09):
One of my most respectedlieutenants that I ever worked
for.
She referred to it as we canonly control our piece of the
pie.
When we say the word control,it's not that I necessarily have
direct control, but I havedirect influence.
If I can positively influencemy piece of the pie, I really
don't necessarily have to worryabout everything, but I am
(20:32):
responsible for my piece of thepie.
When it comes to managing up, Idefinitely think that a lot of
the concepts that we teach canbe applied in giving people
confidence on how to have thoseconversations.
I made a lot of mistakes when Iwas in law enforcement.
Um, I, I, uh.
(20:52):
You know I'm.
I have been told that I cameacross as arrogant when my, my
whole outlook was I just want todo the best I can and lead the
best team I can and be the bestsergeant I can.
I have zero desire to makeanyone feel threatened.
(21:13):
All I want to do is do my job,and so I have learned that the
way I came across, uh, maybe youknow now.
I know things that I didn'tknow then and I would.
I would definitely considerthat in my approach, but I try
(21:36):
to.
I try my best to be a source ofencouragement for those leaders
for when they need to have thosedifficult conversations with
their bosses, because,unfortunately, difficult
conversations are a thing, theyhappen, they're necessary, and I
personally believe that one ofthe flaws with the system and
(22:00):
this is an evolution, I don'tknow exactly when it started,
but one of the flaws in thesystem is that when there's a
lack of communication, things gopoorly, and we don't like
communicating properly toughthings to each other, and nobody
really trains you for it.
(22:21):
So when I tried to havedifficult conversations leading
upward, the response that I gotwas that I was the most
difficult for this oneparticular person, that I was
the most difficult Sergeant thatthey'd ever have to supervise.
I was really devastated by thatcomment and I I said, well, I
don't, I don't really want that.
I would love for us to worktogether.
(22:42):
Now here's where I see aproblem, right, because I go to
this person and I say what can Ido differently?
How can we work better together?
And their response to me was Ithink this is just the way it's
going to be.
Tyra Valeriano (22:57):
You know, I've had that, maybe not very similar
.
We call that the yes man right.
You have your leaders who areyes men, and that is the ideal
person to be in charge of, and Iwas not a yes man, yeah, so I
feel that you know when peoplespeak up and and maybe there
(23:20):
isn't all yes men, maybe there'sjust people who don't care to
bring the conversation up,because sometimes you're just
coasting and you just want toget through your day, go home
and be done with the job goesback to what you said
communication, and a lot ofleaders, at least in law
(23:41):
enforcement, are probably fromthe older generation, right?
So I like to call it the stigma.
You know, we do it this way andthis is the way we've always
done it, and I'm sure that inyour time of doing your business
and teaching leaders, you'vecome across these people that
are leaders and they are likethis is the way we're going to
(24:04):
do it, this is the way it'salways been done.
How do you get across toleaders like that?
How do you break through thatwall?
Charles Heasley (24:10):
That's quite challenging because, you're
right, the yes man is the onewho is the easier person to
supervise, and in my experience,what I've witnessed is that a
lot of the yes people not justmen, but a lot of the yes people
those are the ones whooftentimes get the coveted
(24:31):
positions or the you knowwhatever.
Whatever is the desiredassignments, the promotions in
some cases.
Whatever is the desiredassignments uh, the promotions
in some cases.
And so one of the one of theconcepts that that I teach often
in law enforcement and alsooutside of law enforcement, is
the concept of followership andthe.
(24:51):
The main model that I use is isfrom Robert Kelly, who, in 1988
, wrote a article in the HarvardBusiness Review called In
Praise of Followers, and herates people by the level of
engagement.
They're either disengaged orthey're actively engaged, so
(25:11):
there's a spectrum of engagement.
And then, on the other axis isthe use of independent critical
thought.
Independent critical thought itdoesn't mean that if somebody
is low in this level thatthey're stupid or that they
can't use it.
It's that it could be the case,but in a lot of cases they
choose not to use that level ofindependent critical thinking.
(25:32):
What the obvious answer thatwe're looking for is we want
people to feel like they'reexemplary followers, that
they're actively engaged butthey're also using high levels
of independent critical thinkingand that's your exemplary
follower.
And those people are very toughto lead because those are the
people who will respectfully sayI don't know that that's a good
(25:55):
idea right now.
There's a difference between acritical incident and you know
I'm giving a direct order on thestreet.
You know you need to go do this.
There's a difference betweensaying I'm not so sure about
that and in the walls of thepolice department, when
decisions are still being made,when tough conversations have to
be had, there is a differentkind of courage needed.
(26:18):
There's a courage on the streetand there's a courage in the
walls of the police department,and exemplary followers have
that courage.
Conversely, when we talk aboutpeople who are high levels of
engagement but low levels ofindependent critical thought,
those are your conformists,those are your yes men, those
are your yes women.
Those people are a lot easierto lead because they'll do
exactly what you say.
(26:39):
They won't challenge you, they.
They know that if they do, uh,they will be put in the out
group.
And the unfortunate thing aboutthat category is, while those
people can be easier to lead.
They're never going to come tome and say I really think we've
(26:59):
got an opportunity here, or I'vesee that there's a problem here
, or uh, may I respectfullydisagree with those people will
never really come to you and saythose things and, as a result,
over time the organizationbecomes stagnant and it is a
good old boy system becomesstagnant and it is a good old
boy system.
So really empowering people totake on the role of the
(27:21):
exemplary follower, um and andsaying, hey, this requires a lot
of courage.
I, from experience, cautionthem.
You have to choose your battleswisely.
You have to be respectful whenyou disagree.
You have to realize that anykind of disagreement you do will
(27:41):
be taken as a threat.
It will potentially put you inthe outbox or the outgroup.
So you have to be veryintentional about how you
approach these conversations.
And leaders don't like change.
There's a saying in lawenforcement, right.
There's two things cops can'tstand.
That's change.
(28:06):
Or when things stay the same,right.
And so leaders, you know, likeyou mentioned earlier, one of
their favorite phrases isbecause that's the way we've
always done it, I try toencourage people, have the
courageous conversation whenit's appropriate.
No, you know, pick your battleswisely.
Ideally, you will have built upsome trust with your leader and
invested in that relationship.
But you also have to know thatthere is no magic formula and
(28:27):
you may have a conversation likethat where the answer is
because that's the way we'vealways done it or because that's
just the way it's going to be.
Tyra Valeriano (28:37):
You know, I had a experience as a sergeant where
I was the only female sergeantat that time and I was the one
who wanted to make change.
And if you, of course, maybeyou can relate.
But when you get promoted andyou envision the way you want to
be a leader, you go in withthese ideas that you're going to
tackle and you are going tocreate this massive change that
(29:00):
you've been waiting for, right?
That's the idea that I had, andI remember going to my
lieutenant because there was anissue on patrol, which there's
always issues on patrol.
Patrol always has complaintsand being that I had come from
patrol, I felt it was relativeto address these issues and see
if we can come to some kind ofresolution.
(29:22):
And you know, what ended uphappening is I brought these
issues to the forefront and said, hey, this needs to be
addressed and we need to find aresolution, because this is a
continuous problem.
They're not happy and this iscausing the morale to be very,
very low.
Problem.
They're not happy and this iscausing the morale to be very,
very low.
(29:42):
And once it was addressed, Ifound out about a week later
that this supervisor went aroundasking all the other sergeants
hey, is this a problem for you?
Do you feel like this is aproblem, you know, for patrol?
And then came back to me andsaid hey, well, nobody else
agrees with you, this isn't aproblem.
So it was shut down and, to bequite honest, I felt like that
was a loss of trust for me withmy supervisor, because I went to
(30:06):
him with a problem, not onlywith a problem from patrol side,
but a problem that I alsoexperienced on patrol side.
So it wasn't just hey, Tyra ismy supervisor now Let me come to
her with this complaint.
It's something that I alsoexperienced and it was once
again, just kind of blown to theside.
So this is just one of thosethings where it goes into the
(30:28):
communication is is everybody onthe same page or is everybody
going to be a yes man?
Because you go in there wantingto make change and then it just
doesn't happen.
And I feel like this is whereleadership comes into that wall,
or there's a wall there.
They come in with these greatplans and this great you know
idea that they're going to makeeven a dent in change, and they
(30:51):
get hit with that wall and nowthey have no motivation to do it
.
So here we are back at squareone, and nothing changes.
Charles Heasley (30:59):
Now they have no motivation to do it.
So here we are back at squareone and nothing changes.
Changes scary.
You know, anytime thatsomething is brought to a leader
an idea, a plan there is achallenge there, because that
means all the time it means thatthere will be additional work
on that leader that you bring itto and we get very comfortable
(31:23):
in our routines, we flourish inthe system that we grew up in
and so those, anytime somebodylike you will come to a senior
leader with a, with a challenge,with an idea, the immediate
response is often no.
And it's not necessarily aplanned no.
(31:48):
It's not that they want to sayno or that they completely
disagree with what you're saying.
It could be that they think, oh, there's just going to be more
work on me, or they may not gettheir senior leader support.
You know there's often ranks,additional ranks that may need
to get involved in some problems.
I mean, I remember there were,there were some times where I
(32:11):
was, I came with a, with aproposal, and you know I was
told all right, we'll do someresearch, put together an actual
proposal.
You know they had a form.
It would be eight, 10 pageslong.
I think I would create aPowerPoint, I would do all this
research and they would listen.
Sometimes they would listen, atleast before I really got to
(32:34):
the end there, to the end there,and, um, you know, the answer
was often no, and and I, I knewI knew that going into it.
But, uh, I was very fortunate,at least with the assistant
chief we had at the time.
I was very fortunate that hewas willing to listen.
Um, you know, things change.
Uh, you know the, the systemthat I was in, uh, you know I,
(32:57):
it was a brand new unit and soI'm coming with all these ideas,
all these needs, and I, at thetime, I had no idea how
overwhelming I was.
I had zero idea that I'm comingwith, you know, I need soft
uniforms, I need unmarked cars.
You know, I need this, I needthis kind of training.
And I had no idea that everytime I came to them I
represented a problem because itwas additional work or they
(33:20):
were going to have to make anask and um, and so I think again
, I went.
When I coach people, when I,when I teach them, I I really
try to help them understand howcritical it is to plan for that
conversation and plan for thatReally it's a threat response.
Um, the, the in this situation.
They went around and askedpeople, but I, the way you say
(33:43):
it, the first thing that itmakes me think of is that maybe
the way it was worded orprompted was um, they were
expecting the to hear that.
Oh no, this is fine, there's noproblem here.
That's the first thing thatcomes to mind.
Tyra Valeriano (33:56):
Yeah, and you know it's.
It's nothing against thatparticular leader, it was just
an experience that I had and atsome point I feel like it goes
back to accountability.
Right, this leader is in chargealso of patrol and it kind of
reflects that leader.
So if they hear from otherplaces that, no, there's not a
(34:17):
problem, or, you know, maybeother sergeants just didn't want
to deal with it, if there is aproblem it's going to reflect on
them and then it's a biggerproblem, right?
So what better way to get youknow that affirmation that, hey,
no, this is not a problem,we're doing fine.
And just to have that onesergeant who's saying, no, this
(34:38):
is a problem, that doesn't meanthat the problem doesn't exist,
just because other sergeantsaren't agreeing to it.
I mean, there has been voicesthat were limited because, or
they weren't heard, becausenobody else said anything.
I feel that this pressure, youknow where you do have leaders
that go to their leaders lookingfor resolutions, or you know a
(35:00):
way to solve a problem and itdoesn't get solved, and they're
constantly knocked down orthey're constantly giving or
receiving feedback that this isnot what we want you to be doing
.
This is not.
You know what we're looking forin a supervisor.
It can really beat them downand they may think that they're
not doing a good job.
But there may be some peopleout there who are experiencing
(35:25):
the same thing and maybe theyfeel like they can't be related
to in any way.
Charles Heasley (35:31):
What I've found in my story is that when I
share it with people, all thedetails would be much longer
than the scope of one episode ina podcast.
So, um, but when I tell, when Itell the story, it's it's
almost surprising how manypeople are like, wow, I, I have
(35:51):
felt almost the exact same wayand for a variety of different
reasons.
Uh, but in our in in lawenforcement, it's just, you have
to be very careful who you talkto about certain things and who
you show vulnerability to.
In my case, the beginning ofthe end was really the creation
of this full-time unit, and Ithink when it was built, there
(36:14):
was really good intentions onthe composition of the unit.
I went from having a very shortchain of command in the mental
health side to now having fourpeople in the chain of command
above me Ideas that I would have.
I had been going, I was, I wasthe subject matter expert.
I was also the only one who putin for it, because it was, it
(36:34):
was going to be such acomplicated position to start
with.
I really needed a lot ofsupport.
I needed, I needed a chain ofcommand who really backed me,
and I didn't feel that and I wasreally put in an interesting
place where I had the ear ofsenior officials, not only in
the police department but in thecity.
(36:55):
There were meetings I wasmandated to be at with other
high-level people in the city.
I didn't ask to go to themeetings, I was mandated to be
there.
Looking back on that experience, I'm very grateful.
But also, while I had that, Ihad, I felt, zero support from
my chain of command.
Uh, the chief, a hundredpercent.
(37:17):
I believe he had my back.
I believe he still does.
Uh, but the the rest of thechain of command, um, I felt
like I had no support.
That plus the expectations thatwere me on me and my team.
Uh, I, my phone number was givento the city hall.
Um, you know, the the citymanager.
(37:39):
Well, the deputy city managerhad my number.
Um, you know, all sorts ofpeople had access to me.
All seven chiefs had access tome.
Um, and I remember multipleoccasions where I'm sitting in
my office and I'm swamped andI'm getting a call from one
chief on one phone, a call fromanother chief on another phone,
(38:01):
an email from somebody else.
That's very important and then.
So all these things arehappening and they need stuff
fixed yesterday, and so I feltoverwhelmed with all this
responsibility.
And then I go to my boss and Isay, hey, I'm really feeling
overwhelmed.
Is there any way I can get somesupport for this or that, or
you know?
(38:21):
And that's when I, when I wastold that I was a difficult
Sergeant it was multiple timesbut, um, I really started to
feel like I, there, there was nosuccess.
You know, and and I teachleaders all the time we have to
define what success looks likefor these.
If you're a Sergeant, yourofficers need to know what that
looks like.
How, how can they succeed?
(38:43):
Because if they don't know,then they're going to be
constantly stressed.
I had a lot, of, a lot ofpressure from me from above, uh,
from from senior leaders and,um, I, I really didn't realize
it at the time, but the the waythat I was asking for things and
the way I was trying to buildthis unit.
I believe that I came across asa threat to my chain.
(39:06):
I wanted to do the best I couldfor the city and my my team,
but I was.
I was constantly under the gunand constantly being scrutinized
.
This was 2021.
So I get my performanceevaluation.
(39:30):
There's a lot of other stuffthat can go into the story too,
but this is really the key, andmy boss had written in there
that I almost was rated as needsimprovement for interpersonal
communication, which I thoughtwas funny because my role was
interpersonal communication.
You know, I was therepresentative for our
(39:52):
department to the city.
Um, I had strong connectionsand and all not all, but most of
the city.
Uh, you know cause?
We had to work with the firedepartment and the parks
department and the libraries andall this, all the different
departments that were related towhat we were doing.
I had to work with otherorganizations.
I had to work with the County.
I had to work with the mentalhealth authority hospitals I'm
(40:16):
the one going out and, oh, and,by the way, I'm teaching police
officers and recruit officershow to communicate in crisis.
And yet you're writing in myevaluation that I almost needed
improvement because I had totell somebody that we were not
going to be able to handle theirum, another, like patrol, had a
mental health thing sometimesand they would say, hey, can you
take this off our plate?
(40:36):
And so I would respond becauseit would not always meet the
criteria for uh, for triage.
Uh, you know, and I wouldprovide other resources.
And so I was.
I was.
I was a problem for myLieutenant because other people
were complaining about you know.
I think the words were that Ididn't play well in the sandbox,
or something like that.
Then I, then I was.
There was other portions on thisevaluation that I was surprised
(40:59):
at too.
For example, I was rated asmeets expectations and
leadership and I I said, well,it doesn't make any sense.
I, I've been tasked withforming and leading a brand new
unit.
Some of these officers arewinning awards from the county.
The county says that we're someof the easiest people to work
with, that they have.
I mean, I can't speak for them,but you might ask with them if
(41:22):
I'm a decent leader or not.
The community sees me as aleader.
I have a master's degree inleadership.
I teach leadership for the city.
So what else would I need to doto be rated as exceeds
expectations Initiative?
I was rated as meetsexpectations and initiative and
I said, boss, I've formed, youknow, built this unit.
(41:44):
I'm constantly trying to makeus even better.
I'm writing policy.
I'm doing all this trainingthat I don't necessarily have to
do, but because I know thatthese officers licenses not
necessarily in jeopardy, but wewant to get this off their plate
as soon as possible.
There were several other othercategories and I said is there
any way we can talk?
(42:04):
Because I, I, I feel like I'mworking as hard as I can to make
this team, to make thisorganization as good as possible
and and and as as as valuableto the city as possible.
I don't feel like I have yoursupport and I don't feel like I
(42:24):
have the chain support.
Is there any way we can talkand to to so I can figure out
what it is I need to do tosucceed?
And he says again um, that'sjust going to be the way it is.
Slides my performanceevaluation back to me.
So sign here in in any otherorganization that I'm aware of,
in in in the city, in the city,if you have a, if you had
(42:52):
disagree with your performanceevaluation, you can, you know,
contest it basically, and thenext level leader has to review
it.
So in this case, it would havebeen the deputy chief and the
police department.
That's not how it worked.
I could write a rebuttal andthe only person that had to read
it was my Lieutenant.
I could write a rebuttal andthe only person that had to read
it was my lieutenant, the onewho wrote it, and then it goes
(43:13):
into my file.
In other words, zeroaccountability.
So I was told the performanceevaluation was a done deal, it's
closed, we're moving on.
I said okay.
So I did what all people do whoare ready to end their career,
and I wrote in a memo and thememo was addressing where I
(43:40):
thought the evaluation wasincorrect.
And on the eighth page of thememo I requested to meet with my
chain of command because I didnot believe that I was being
rated fairly.
But I didn't ask to meet withthem about that.
I figured the evaluation was adone deal.
I asked for two things, and twothings only.
The first thing I asked for wasto form a training plan for my
(44:02):
unit.
I had taken over and they hadno additional training beyond
the regular patrol officer inmental health, and I wanted to
get them some additionaltraining hostage negotiation,
things like that to betterprepare them for their role.
The second thing I asked forwas a meeting with my chain of
command so that we could all geton the same page, because I was
(44:24):
under so much pressure theywere basically knocking me down
every time I tried to get up andI didn't know what to do.
I was in such a dark place.
I was doing the best I couldand I was not.
Nobody would even listen to me.
Nobody would sit down at atable and say, charles, here's,
here's how you're messing up,here's how you're not meeting
our standards, here's what weexpected to do.
(44:46):
I submitted the memo and this isabout the time when I was
teaching that course for thecity, the leadership course, and
two weeks goes by, and it'sduring this two weeks Now I've
seen my chain of command atvarious functions.
During those two weeks theydidn't even acknowledge me.
(45:07):
In two weeks I'm freaking out.
I'm like what's going to happen?
What's going on?
It's during this period of timewhere I feel so lost and so
alone, like there's no hope.
And for people who have neverbeen suicidal, they don't really
understand.
They think that it's, that it'ssomething easy to you just get
over it.
And when you're deep in thathole and you don't know what the
(45:29):
other side looks like you just.
It's so lonely and dark.
And even though I saw my wifeevery day and my friends and
family, I was fighting thisinternal battle of just angst.
I I wanted so much to be a goodasset for the city and and to
be a good sergeant, and I was.
(45:51):
I was failing and I didn't knowwhy or how.
Two weeks goes by and I get anemail from my Lieutenant and you
know, oftentimes he wouldaddress me in an email, charles.
You know, blah, blah, blah,sergeant Heasley.
Number one your memo will beplaced in your file per policy.
Number two you can I forget theexact wording, but you can
(46:14):
develop whatever training plansyou want for your unit.
They may or may not be approved.
Number three your request tomeet with the chain of command
has been denied.
I went to a tailspin.
I couldn't even.
I couldn't believe it.
They wouldn't even meet with me, tara.
They wouldn't even meet with meto talk.
Yet I was put on these, these,these stages, these platforms
(46:37):
that were obviously important tothe police department, to the
city, and I'm telling you, I'mcrying out, saying I am
struggling, I want nothing morethan to do the best, and they
won't even meet with me.
I have the memo saved and Ihave the response saved.
I reached out to some mentors,some friends and, um, I tried
(47:03):
again, I tried to reach back out.
Um, there was no response.
So two weeks later I had hardconversations with my wife we're
walking away from an income anda pension and benefits and all
(47:23):
this but I knew that I couldn'tstay in this position.
I couldn't stay feeling like Iwas.
I didn't want to feel that wayanymore and, um, rather than
(47:43):
taking the ultimate, you knowand life ending decision, I mean
my, my finger was on thetrigger and the slack was pulled
out, like I was a pound ofpressure away from it being done
and I didn't want I mean, thankGod I didn't sneeze or anything
, but I was so close and I saidI can't do this.
So I asked internal affairswhat's the exit process look
(48:06):
like?
And that was in October of 2021.
I told them that I didn't knowwhen I was leaving, but it was
probably going to be in thespring of 2022.
This is October of 21.
There was no actual effort toretain me, no conversations,
(48:27):
except for one.
I gave them a 10 week notice sothat they could fill my spot
and that I could train myreplacement.
No effort to retain me.
So I was not underinvestigation.
I was not in like actualtrouble with the police
department.
I um, I showed up to thedepartment on my last day,
turning all my stuff and thatwas it.
Tyra Valeriano (48:48):
Wow, yeah, that's.
I'm sorry you experienced that.
That's a rough, definitely arough experience, and I'm pretty
sure there are some people outthere that can relate to some of
(49:17):
the experiences that you're intoday.
You are running your ownbusiness.
You are still teaching leadershow to be leaders, leaders how
to be leaders.
You're addressing the hardtopics that you know leadership
has a hard time addressing ontheir own.
If there is anything that youwould want to take out of your
(49:39):
experience as a whole and giveadvice from what would that be
to another officer?
Charles Heasley (49:45):
Hmm, I, it's so hard to narrow it down to one.
I think the one piece of adviceI would give is to study human
nature.
I've read the books 48 Laws ofPower and the Laws of Human
Nature by Robert Greene sinceleaving and I realized how many
(50:08):
mistakes I made because Iviolated simple rules of power
and human nature.
And do your best to understandhuman nature and do your best to
understand yourself.
I think that that my story.
I can point to so many examplesof where I messed up.
I didn't, I didn't make theright approach or whatever, and
(50:30):
I became a threat that I didn'twant to be, and I think that if
I had done more work tounderstand myself, I could have
avoided that.
And so I encourage you tounderstand human nature and
understand yourself.
Tyra Valeriano (50:42):
That's great.
Is there any way that listenerscan contact you or maybe look
up your business if they want totake a course with you?
Charles Heasley (50:52):
Sure, my best way to get a hold of me is via
email.
It's Charles at Charles Heasleydot com, and will you put that
in the notes.
Tyra Valeriano (51:02):
I will.
Charles Heasley (51:03):
It's for those who don't obviously know the
common spelling of HeasleySounds good.
Tyra Valeriano (51:07):
Well, thank you so much, Charles, for joining me
today and sharing your storyand also showing the way that
you were able to make a comebackand do something still great,
not only for yourself, but forlaw enforcement and leaders in
many areas, of all aspects.
I want to thank the listenersfor tuning in and supporting
(51:29):
Chapter Blue For everyone else.
Stay safe and we will see youon the next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
(51:50):
remember you're never in joiningan episode.
I'd love for you to be a partof the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
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