February 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Imagine transitioning from a high pressure law enforcement career to civilian life and carrying with you the emotional toll and mental challenges that come with wearing the badge. In this episode of Chapter Blue, seasoned officer Nathan Clark shares his journey through 23 years of policing in Arizona, offering a rare glimpse into the diverse agencies he served, including the ASU Police Department and a reservation police agency. Nathan's stories discuss the unique challenges faced by officers and the adaptability required for each role amidst varying policies within each agency.
Listen to Nathan's personal battles with mental health set against the backdrop of a 'macho' policing culture. He opens up about the healing power of therapy and how he managed to balance his career with family life and personal interests. We talk about the portrayal of policing in media and its impact on career aspirations, family members, and understanding the importance of self care.
Beyond personal experiences, the episode also tackles other cultural issues within law enforcement, such as the challenges of internal investigations and the isolating nature of the thin blue line. Nathan sheds light on the political influences in policing, the evolution of technology like body cameras, and the complexities of maintaining integrity within politics. As we wrap up, we reflect on the transition to civilian life and the relief of leaving behind work related issues and staying vigilant in today's world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tyra Valeriano (00:01):
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Welcome back to another episodeof Chapter Blue.
(00:43):
It's been a wild ride jumpinginto the podcast space, but
coming into a space where lawenforcement can talk about
mental health, leadership,experience and stories is
becoming more relatable witheach shared experience.
Many of the participants toparticipate in their first
(01:07):
podcast.
Today, nathan Clark will bejoining me as a first timer on a
podcast, but he comes with 23years of law enforcement
experience and he is definitelynot a first timer with the
experience and knowledge he'sgained over those years.
So thank you, nathan, for yourtime and for joining the
conversation.
Tell us some more about yourbackground and what you're doing
today.
Nathan Clark (01:24):
Sure, first off, thanks for having me, tyra.
I'm looking forward to this.
I've been following you for awhile.
So again 23 years in lawenforcement.
I was kind of a transient copout here in Arizona, Started
with my first agency with theASU Police Department Very
interesting learning of theuniversity environment, I will
say Did that for about firstfive and a half, six years.
(01:46):
Then I just transitioned tothis estate agency, worked in a
state Capitol police for a whilefor about the same time, for
about five to six years, andthen I actually worked for a
reservation out here.
I don't want to say thereservation agency just because
they are very they don't like tobe exposed Very strict, but I
worked for them about sevenyears, just because they are
very, they don't like to beexposed Strict, right, very
(02:07):
strict, but I worked for themabout seven years.
That was an awesome gig, though,and then learned a lot, and
then my last agency was aservice office out here in
Arizona Again, great agency.
I learned a lot there, a lot ofexperiences as well.
The majority of my career wasfocused on traffic enforcement,
(02:27):
as well as collisioninvestigations and assisting
with homicide investigations andwhatnot.
Tyra Valeriano (02:33):
Very nice.
What would you say is yourfavorite out of all four
agencies that you worked for?
Nathan Clark (02:38):
It's kind of a toss-up.
To be quite frank with you, theSheriff's Office is its own
breed.
All the jokes about being in,you know, with the sheriff's
agency versus state or city aretrue.
So it was definitely kind ofthe wild west a little bit.
You really have to be on yourfeet, I would say that, and the
(02:59):
reservation to kind of go onehand to hand, because you kind
of have to be self-reliant,because you don't know how long
your backup is going to be, kindof have to be self-reliant
because you don't know how longyour backup is going to be.
So you have to be able to thinkquick on your feet but also
basically take care of yourself,or even your partners at that,
because, again, you're out inthe middle of nowhere sometimes
and your backup is probablygoing to be coming about 15, 20
(03:21):
minutes out.
Tyra Valeriano (03:23):
Nice Well reservation.
I've always had an interest inreservation police, Not that
I've ever really looked into it,but do they get assistance from
other agencies outside of thereservation, or is it just a
standalone unit?
Nathan Clark (03:38):
Most at least, out here in Arizona we have a
pretty good report.
The surrounding agencies, again, they are sovereign.
However, they have the mutualaid agreements where if we need
help, you know on thereservation, because of a
critical incident or what haveyou we do have those agencies
come out and assist.
Usually it's the state orhighway patrol.
(03:59):
We don't have state police outhere or it would be the
sheriff's office, depending onwhich jurisdiction or county
side you're on, because thereservation I worked for we
crossed into two counties so andsometimes we would have a city
agency come out and assist.
So I mean it kind of playednice with the other agencies,
(04:20):
but then when it gets down tobusiness, sometimes they just
kind of put their foot down andsay no, we're doing this, you
can, you can go now.
Tyra Valeriano (04:28):
So I know you mentioned that you did traffic
enforcement and I don't normallybring up politics at all, but
it's kind of just reminded me ofthat time when Arizona started
trying to identify people withtheir status.
Trying to identify people withtheir status, were you having to
(04:50):
do that while you were workingin an agency?
Nathan Clark (04:52):
And how did that work out for you?
So the reservation we kind ofhad a little bit of freelance to
do that because we kind of,again, we were sovereign, so we
didn't necessarily have tofollow state guidelines if we
didn't want to, because we stillhad tribal law and federal law
we had to enforce at the sametime.
(05:13):
So it really wasn't that big ofan issue.
We kind of toyed with it alittle bit.
But because again, it was astate law, the agency I worked
for at that time wasn't reallytoo worried about it.
We did have a good rapport withborder patrol if we needed them
.
So that was kind of nice.
But other than that we didn'thave that much of an issue.
I know surrounding agencies did.
(05:33):
They created a lot of policiesabout that.
I will say, when I transitionedwith the sheriff's office, I
did have to have a little bit ofa learning curve at that point
because I was still under theoppression.
We were still doing that.
However, at that point the lawhad changed so we weren't
allowed to ask about statusanymore per se.
Tyra Valeriano (05:52):
OK, I was just curious because you know, with
politics, like I said, I'mpretty sure there's going to be
a learning curve coming up and Iknow that Arizona already
experienced something like that.
So I was interested to hearyour side of the story, and I
know that Arizona alreadyexperienced something like that.
Nathan Clark (06:05):
So I was interested to hear your side of
the story.
Oh yeah, no, the closest I gotwith the politics was SB 1070,
when I worked at the Capitol.
I was involved in a lot of that, especially the protests that
occurred down at the Capitol.
Tyra Valeriano (06:17):
How was that working with protests?
Nathan Clark (06:19):
That was in and of itself interesting.
So I worked with the CapitolCapitol police at that time, so
we were kind of our own entity.
Let me just say I'm not a fanof large crowds anymore.
After that, a lot of times wewere stuck in the middle trying
to save the agitators and we gotpelted a lot by bottles, rocks
(06:41):
and what have you, and it's avery unnerving feeling when
you've got a lot of angry peopleyelling at you or whether you
know.
Obviously you know that it'snot because of you but it's
because of the badge and uniformthat it represents.
It's definitely unnerving whenyou have an angry mob mentality
and you really have nowhere togo.
So you kind of have that kind of.
(07:02):
I don't like large crowdsbecause of that, in a way.
Tyra Valeriano (07:05):
I can see that you know I'm curious because my
podcast is it mainly circlesaround mental health and you
worked for four differentagencies.
How were resources for you as apolice officer working under
each agency?
Were they available or did theyhave any type of protocol that
(07:28):
they followed, if there wassomething an officer needed?
Nathan Clark (07:33):
So that is interesting.
So growing up as a baby cop,you know, starting about 21
years old, I saw the change inhow we do law enforcement when
it comes to mental health.
I really didn't see anythingfor us until about my last
agency, the agency that I workedfor.
Then the sheriff's officestarted really looking into it,
(07:54):
trying to take care of the linedeputies, I guess you could say,
and pretty much anybody, but Ithink they still could do more.
But we were definitely startingto get psychologists on site,
for if we had a criticalincident we would maybe have a
debrief.
And I know one of my moreserious events, more briefly, it
(08:20):
was a quadruple homicide wherebasically everybody, including a
child about age one, wasbeheaded and they just had me
sign up or sign me up.
I had a psychologist call me onshift one day and we had about
a 30 minute debrief.
So that's when they reallystarted taking a look into it to
(08:41):
say, hey, this is something weneed to take, we need to adjust,
just to be safe.
Tyra Valeriano (08:47):
Right, was that 30 minutes sufficient for you?
Nathan Clark (08:51):
So for me, at that time I wasn't too worried about
it because, as you know, cops,we can compress our thoughts and
emotions and feelings quitewell and basically at that time
I just kept busy with patrolcalls and what have you, and so
I really didn't put too muchthought into it.
But also at that point I hadalready seen enough, you know,
(09:13):
homicides, deaths and whatnot.
So I at that point I wasn'treally too affected until later,
later on.
Tyra Valeriano (09:21):
Okay, and how did you deal with that?
Nathan Clark (09:24):
The later on side.
So what kind of kicked it intooverdrive, I guess you could say
for me was 2021 was kind of ahard one for me.
April of 21, that's when it'sstill in court right now.
(09:45):
I had a car chase that starteddown in southern Arizona and
ended up in basically the metroPhoenix area and multiple
agencies.
I was shot at during my pursuitand ultimately an officer from
a neighboring agency was killedas a result of it and I
witnessed it.
So that was kind of what kindof kicked it a little bit.
(10:06):
Um, that uh survivors remorsetype deal, um, and then later on
that about 20, a year laterDecember November maybe, ish,
when I was sitting in officeafter I had to go and help
investigate a double fatal oftwo children teenagers kind of.
(10:28):
What opened it up was one ofthe fatalities was a 15-year-old
boy that pretty much mirroredmy 15-year-old at home almost a
spitting image and I had a lotof time to reflect and I'm like,
okay, this isn't okay anymore,this isn't okay anymore.
So at that point, that's whenwe had there was a law passed in
(10:49):
Arizona where we can reach outfor a counselor or psychologist
free of cost, and we wereallotted, I think about 27
sessions or something of thatnature, and so I took advantage
of that, and that was through myagency at the time.
Tyra Valeriano (11:01):
And did that help you.
Nathan Clark (11:03):
Um, it did because , um, as you know, we okay cops
keep things to themselves.
I really, um, didn't bring mywork home a lot, I didn't talk
about it very much, so I justcompressed a lot of what I saw
through the past 20 some oddyears.
Tyra Valeriano (11:17):
So okay, where are you somebody who talks to
your family about any of thethings that you experience on
shift?
Nathan Clark (11:32):
Yes and no.
So I might say this is kind ofwhat happened, but I don't go
into details because that wasone thing in the academy we kind
of were taught was this issomething you don't want to
bring home typically to yourfamily.
And as I started going throughmy career, learning more about
the mental health side of it,you know I've kind of learned
about secondary trauma Whereas,ok, I might be the one seeing
the trauma but then if I starttalking to others that weren't
(11:53):
there, they can startexperiencing the trauma just by
hearing the details and all that.
So I learned real quick keepthat to myself because I don't
know how it's going to affectothers Down the road.
Obviously it affected me alittle bit more than I probably
should have allowed, but I wasjust looking more for the mental
health of my family, you know,my children essentially, and
(12:14):
everybody, friends and familiesand say, hey, you probably don't
want to see this part of thelaw enforcement side, you know,
or hear about it.
Tyra Valeriano (12:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say that.
It's probably one of theunfortunate things about law
enforcement is just, you can'treally talk about what you see
at work, obviously for legalreasons, especially if there's
an investigation, but then, ofcourse, when it's over with, you
don't want that secondarytrauma for your family.
(12:42):
I can't say that all familymembers are the same, because
you have your family membersthat are interested.
They want to hear the warstories, you know, but sometimes
you just don't know whatthey're going to react or say to
the things that you've beenthrough.
With that being said, how doyou think that your or maybe you
(13:05):
don't know, I don't know do youthink that your children saw a
change in you when theseincidents happen in 2021
compared to prior experience inlaw enforcement?
Nathan Clark (13:18):
um, honestly, I don't know.
So my, my children are mucholder now, um, during that time
frame, all pretty much teenagers.
Um, they're pretty um, aware ofthe job, because I kind of I do
tell them, you know, this isone of those things where we see
the good things but we also seethe really horrible things that
a man can do to each other, um,or to themselves, and um, I
(13:42):
kind of get again, withoutputting any things into detail,
I kind of tell them things.
But the funny part of it isalso so a little side bit is I
grew up watching horror movies,which is probably why it doesn't
affect me as much per se.
But I've also got my kidsinvolved in horror movies
because they would sneak out inthe middle of the night so they
(14:02):
would watch those things.
So they're a littledesensitized as well.
Um, I would say my daughter isprobably more like me, so she
understands a lot of it.
Um, and then going, my two boysthey, they're just boys, um,
they, they're not too worriedabout it.
So did they see much of achange?
I, I, I hit it pretty well,let's just put it that way um,
(14:23):
um, so I again, I compressed alot of it, everything was fine.
You know, um didn't tell them Iwas doing therapy for a little
bit.
Um, just because, uh, as youknow, cops were were kind of
macho, so, um, I really wasn'tsure how I wanted to play that
one saying, hey, your dadprobably having some issues here
, um, you know, cause that'ssupposed to be the strong one,
(14:44):
so.
So it took a little bit, butagain, once they realized I was
doing that, they were like okay,that's cool.
You know, good guys are doingwhat you need to do.
Tyra Valeriano (14:55):
Do any of them want to be police officers when
they grow up?
Nathan Clark (14:59):
My daughter did, until she heard a lot of other
negative things about the job.
And then obviously you knowwatching the news, you know the
political side of it, shequickly realized that's probably
not what I want to be doing.
And then my middle, my oldestson was thinking of it, and then
kind of the same deal.
The media, I guess you couldsay, kind of played a huge role
(15:22):
in making their decisions atthat point, because they
initially did want to follow inmy footsteps.
But after seeing how cops havebeen treated within the past,
you know, let's say five, tenyears, it kind of really changed
their mindset a little bit.
Tyra Valeriano (15:36):
Yeah, understandable.
How are you doing today aftereverything?
How do you feel you've donesince everything happened?
Nathan Clark (15:45):
each day is better .
Um, like I said, um, you know I, I kind of worked through a lot
of that stuff.
Um, it's always going to bethere, obviously, so, um, but
I'm not, you know, I'm not doingit as much, I'm not doing it at
all, in fact, unless I have togo to court for anything else.
But, um, you know it'sinteresting, the transition, um,
(16:07):
going from being a cop to beingjust a regular person again.
That in of itself is its owntopic, just kind of a transition
lifestyle you have to gothrough.
So I would say, not having todeal with the hustle and bustle
of, you know, going call to callthe adrenaline, all that stuff,
I really that part didn'treally affect me too much, um,
(16:30):
because I was able to find otherthings to keep me.
Um, I guess you could say levelheaded on that Um, but I guess
you could say that the therapyhelped a lot.
Um, I'm more open into talkingabout it than, rather than just
keeping it in anymore.
You know, I think more or lessjust to be a voice for for some
(16:53):
that you know are scared to talkabout stuff like that.
Tyra Valeriano (16:56):
Right and that, and that's honestly a really
good message because, just likeyou said, there is this ego and
macho perspective that or or Iguess you can say we give out.
As police officers, we can dealwith everything and anything
and we're not human.
We, you know, we don't need totalk to anybody, but the reality
is is that everybodyexperiences trauma in a
(17:18):
different way.
It doesn't have to be a crimescene, it doesn't have to be you
know something job related, itcould even be home life, it can
be leadership.
I had a guest who talked aboutleadership being the driving
force of his mental healthissues.
So there's definitely anexperience for everyone.
I am curious to hear what wereyour hobbies before you became a
(17:43):
police officer at 21?
What did you like to do?
Nathan Clark (17:46):
Oh, just anything outdoors, really Outdoor stuff
hang out with friends, basically, go to the gym, you know, just
movies, games, just very, verysimple things.
And yeah, that's really aboutit.
I mean just learning new thingsbasically.
Tyra Valeriano (18:09):
So with your transition, would you say that
you are able to continue thosehobbies that you had back then,
before you became a policeofficer?
Nathan Clark (18:17):
Actually I tried to maintain a lot of those
throughout my career becausethat's where I said I kind of
kept my, was able to keep myselfin check that way.
Again, that was a promise Itold myself when I started this
career.
First thing was no alcohol,cops and alcohol don't mix,
don't, don't make poor decisionswith people as well.
(18:38):
So you know, I try to keep alevel head because I had, before
becoming a cop, I was actuallya police explorer for about
three to four years with a localagency out here and I got a lot
of good advice from supervisorsthat were over us.
So they kind of helped mefigure out how to be a cop
before I was a cop and gave mereally good advice.
So they said, if you havehobbies before, maintain them
(19:03):
throughout your career, becausethat's what's going to help a
little bit with, you know, yourmental health, but also just
staying in shape mentally,physically and emotionally.
So I try to maintain a lot ofthose things throughout my
career to help in between,obviously, call outs and whatnot
.
Tyra Valeriano (19:19):
So how is the transition been for you?
I know a lot of people strugglewith identity.
I did.
I struggled with identity for awhile and I want to say
sometimes it's still sparks upin there from time to time.
I mean, is there any strugglesthat you've had since you've
been transitioning into thecivilian life?
Nathan Clark (19:38):
Um, the only hard thing I could say, because I,
when I was off the clock, I wasoff the clock, you know, I
wasn't that gung-ho guy who, ifI see something, I'm going to do
something about it.
Something about it, no, I I'llcall, I don't want to get
involved, not my circus.
So, um, but I would say thehardest thing, working, or just
(20:03):
I would just be, I guess I wouldsay the work environment would
be how to talk to people,because obviously we talk in a
different language and I have tolearn very quickly.
You cannot talk a certain wayto people in a civilian type job
and even you know circles.
You know you got to be carefulwhat you say and how you say,
(20:27):
basically read the room.
So I have to.
I had to learn really quick togo OK, so you're about the same
age, but you probably can't, Iprobably can't say certain
things or say certain jokes.
You know, because, as you know,law enforcement, we have dark
humor and sometimes it's alittle too dark.
Tyra Valeriano (20:44):
Right.
It's funny that you said that.
I can relate to that 100%.
I still feel like I don't knowhow to talk to people and my
husband thank God he'severywhere with me, so when he
sees me falling off of aconversation he'll pick up for
me because he knows, he justknows, and we actually just
talked about it earlier todaywhen he was just like you know,
(21:04):
I'm tired and if we go hang outwith these people then I'm going
to have to pick up the slackand I'm just like I'm sorry.
I'm working on it.
I even even in the podcast I'venoticed that in the very
beginning I struggled becauseI'm so used to asking questions
in a law enforcement manner andit's so weird asking questions
to spark a conversation becauseI am interested.
(21:27):
But it's like very difficultwhen you've been doing it for so
long.
You don't know what to ask andmaybe you don't want to be too
invasive and normally we're veryinvasive.
So it's been an interestingexperience.
So I definitely can relate toyou on that.
Nathan Clark (21:41):
Oh, definitely I know.
Um.
Again in the civilian world Iwill say my bosses enjoy what I
did because they they see that Ihold myself with command
presence.
Still, they see the leadershipqualities in me.
So that's kind of the good part.
But then on the other side ofit, when I speak to new people
at work they're like well,excuse me, I don't know if we
(22:01):
can swear on this, but I'll bevery not colorful.
You're kind of like a dicksometimes, just the way you kind
of talk to people or you lookor you stand on like I didn't
think I was, but you don't thinkthat you are, because we're.
So again, as you said, you'reaccustomed to doing things a
certain way and a lot of peoplewhen they first meet me the
first question is were you inthe military?
(22:22):
And if not, were you a cop?
Because of how you?
You know how you are, yourdemeanor, everything, because of
how you are, your demeanor,everything.
Tyra Valeriano (22:29):
And it's funny because I know exactly what
you're saying and sometimes Istill have that attitude.
Well, I mean, that's what theythink.
If that's what they want tothink, then so be it.
You know, it's like I don'tcare.
I'm not going to sit here andtry to make them like me, or I'm
not going to kiss their ass sothat they can be like oh, she's
really nice.
Nathan Clark (22:47):
Yeah, yeah, so I get that.
Tyra Valeriano (22:50):
So there is a topic that I am interested in
discussing with you, and I thinkit's going to be very
interesting, because you haveworked for several departments,
so you have a lot of insight ondifferent jurisdictions,
different leadership styles,even down to policies,
procedures and law.
The dark part of lawenforcement for you can be
(23:14):
different for everyone, but I'minterested to hear what was a
dark part of law enforcement foryou.
Nathan Clark (23:21):
Okay.
So there's a lot of that.
So I guess you could sayprobably gonna make a lot of
fans by saying this straight offthe bat, cause I had this topic
with somebody at work the othernight, cause we were talking
about something we all know thethin blue line, and it's all
paraded as cops, family, thisand that, but what they don't
(23:43):
see is exactly how thin thatline really is.
As we both know, when thingsare good, it's great.
You know you're either thegolden child in your agency or
you're, you know, everybody'sfavorite, or the go to person,
this and that when things aregood.
However, when things go bad,you learn quickly in this job
(24:06):
they're not there for you.
That's just the straight up,one of the darkest parts of this
job.
Being in many different agencies, you also learn real quick that
you really need to just be well.
At least for me, I learned Icould only rely on myself.
I relied on my partners forcertain things, but a lot of it
(24:26):
was nope, I'm not going to hangout with that group.
I'm not going to hang out withthat group because that group's
known for being brown nosers.
This group's known for gettingin trouble, and that's not my
cup of tea.
So then you're pretty much anoutcast, and a lot of times
throughout my career it didn'tmatter which agency I was I hung
out by myself after an incidentat my first agency where I
(24:51):
thought I could be open with apartner and they pretty much
turned me in for something Ididn't even do intentionally and
I got in trouble for him likewait a second, that was just a
conversation you and I had.
Why would you do that?
Tyra Valeriano (25:04):
And so that's when I said to myself.
Nathan Clark (25:06):
Yep, I'm going to keep to myself because I can't
trust this person.
And you know, again, it getsdown to a dog eat dog world.
You know cops are in it forthemselves in reality and you
know I hate saying that, butthat's that's kind of the
reality of it is.
It's no different than anythingelse.
You know everybody's trying todo that career, climb that
(25:37):
career ladder and whatever theyhave to burn, they will burn you
.
But again, also, 23 years, I'vefound myself on the other side
of the IA.
You know, and we've all beenthere, and that in of itself I
would probably say the darkestpart of this career, because
when you're under that of those,those that lovely word Garrity,
um, you, that's a very lonelyworld.
Um, you don't have friendsanymore, you don't have anybody.
Um, because as much as you wantto talk about what's going on,
(26:01):
you can't.
And that in and of itself kindof goes hand in hand with the
mental health side of this job,because you can't talk to
anybody and you know the traumathat that puts you through in
itself is a lot.
You know a lot of stress,especially if you're worried
about your career at that point,you know you, I know, working
(26:23):
for my reservation.
They do things a little bitdifferent and I was kind of put
on probation due to what'scalled a adjudication, where
basically it's a federal reviewand I was in jeopardy of my job
because it's a differentstandard, even though I met
statewide requirements.
I was told by my chief you mayor may not have a job because of
(26:44):
this review, based off of whatother things that have happened
in your past.
That post doesn't care about it, but the feds.
Due to the point system, youmay not meet the standards.
Now, um, so that was, uh, againa lot of stress.
And then, um, after I clearedall that, again, um, people talk
, you know, and um, to your face, they're going to be you're the
(27:09):
best cop ever.
I later find out people aresaying you know he's he, you
know he's not a good cop, he'sjust not.
He's always in trouble becausethey don't cause, they don't
know the whole story, they justhear you know through the
grapevine.
This is may or may have beenwhat happened and again, that's
you know.
Again, part of the dark side oflaw enforcement is the rumor
(27:29):
realm.
You know, we've all been thereRumor, rumor, rumor, and those
can make or break your careerand whether there's any validity
to it.
That's a really scary thing.
You know we're supposed to befact finders and objective and
yet when it comes to internally,we'll believe a rumor just as
(27:51):
fast as anything.
And then you're going to gowait a second.
What just happened?
Tyra Valeriano (27:57):
Yeah, you know, those are all I mean.
I've said it before and there'stimes where I've gotten heat for
mentioning the thin blue linebecause that is such a huge
topic and you have a lot ofofficers who will come and say,
you know, I don't agree with youbecause this is the best job in
the world.
Well, that we're not sayingthat it's not right.
(28:17):
We love the profession.
We're not disagreeing with you,but these are the topics that I
feel are glamorized and thetruth isn't really there.
The, the thin blue line someone of my friends actually told
me the other day cause we hadthis conversation.
He mentioned that the thin blueline is now what stands between
law enforcement and society,rather than it being the family
(28:40):
unit that everybody portrays itto be, and I thought that was
very interesting.
I thought, wow, that's, that's.
I would say that's true.
And then, of course, you know,everybody comes together in a
time of need, when there's anofficer killed in the line of
duty or injured, everybody'ssupportive.
But when it comes to you as anofficer, feeling that family
(29:02):
feeling, it really isn't thatit's.
It's very different.
And you know you talk about um,I call it blackball, you know if
you go through something withyour agency and let's say you
decide to leave or you decide toapply for another department,
you can get blackballed.
You know conspiring with eachother against you to say, hey,
(29:34):
he did this, don't hire him, orshe did this, and it makes it
very hard for somebody tocontinue their career.
And then again on the IAs ofcourse everybody goes through
those.
But you literally justmentioned something I didn't
even think about and that is avery lonely process because for
me and my agency, everybody knewyou were in an IA because there
was a white envelope in yourbox and all somebody has to do
(29:58):
is, if it's sealed and it hasyour name, oh, we know.
So everybody knows.
They just don't know what it'sabout.
So everybody's talking, tryingto decide what you're going
through.
Why did you get called into IA?
And just all of these crazythings.
And, yeah, you can't talk aboutit.
And I, and I think that that'sone of the reasons why mental
health is a problem, becauseeven with those things that you
(30:22):
cannot talk to anybody about,there's also the things that
you're going through that youcan't talk to anybody about
because you're not supposed toright, you're a cop, you got to
tough it out.
There's no reason for you totalk about these things, man
Like you're good.
Nathan Clark (30:37):
Right, no, and again, going with that, you know
it almost makes you feel I'llbe very careful how I phrase
this a little bit of empathywith criminals at times, because
sometimes you are treated justas bad when you're under any
kind of investigation or whathave you.
(30:57):
Because you know the one personthat you know.
I'll tell you right now fromexperience, one that I went
through recently.
Um, it was pretty serious, um,and I was cleared on one side of
it and another side wasn't somuch but, um, without getting
into too much detail, but youknow my circle of friends that I
(31:19):
thought I had, you know, theywere kind of there for a little
bit, um, we didn't talk too muchabout it.
And then, um, as things startedslowly clearing out, um, that's
when a lot of rumors were beingsaid about me and I could hear
what people were saying, whatthey were, and those friends
eventually said bye, I'm notreturning your calls anymore,
(31:41):
I'm not returning your textsanymore.
And again, you know we can getin trouble for talking about it.
But one day I get a call fromsomebody from my old agency my
old agency, mind you and thefirst thing out of the mouth was
I heard you got in trouble forthis.
I'm like how do you know aboutthis?
(32:02):
Because somebody in the IAsection is talking about it and
that really, and there's nothingI can do about it at that point
, because you know you're again.
You're essentially where Iworded it was you're guilty
before proven innocent in anykind of an IA and and I get it,
(32:22):
I you know, I was a supervisorat one point.
I understand the administrativeside of it, but I think there's
got to be a better process tofor that, because a lot of
people I've seen throughouttheir careers either quit
because of IAs or, worst casescenario, do self-harm because
of the stress they, becauseagain, it gets down to that you
(32:44):
being ostracized, you, you can'tdo this, you can't do that.
You're basically where I wasgoing at the beginning.
When things are good, they'regood.
When trouble hits, you're justa number at that point and
you're easily replaced, you'reeasily forgotten.
It doesn't matter what you'vedone through your career, all
(33:09):
the goods.
It's really easy to say this isthe bad stuff you've done.
We can highlight this.
We're not going to highlightthe good you've done throughout
your career, but we're going tohighlight the negative things
and I think that speaks volumes,you know there.
There there's that biasness whenit comes to stuff like that and
(33:29):
that's part of that dark sideof law enforcement that, no,
they don't tell you about youknow of.
You know, when you're introuble, stand by you know, or
even believe to be in.
You know in trouble, stand by,you know, and again going with
the dark side of it.
It's quite the I don't knowwhat the word I'm trying to say
(33:52):
here, but it's like I guess thebest thing is damned if you do
and damned if you don't.
You know, a lot of timesthroughout my career I would get
in trouble because I was honest.
I would tell myself peopleweren't around when something
happened.
I go hey, I did this.
Oh, thanks for letting us know.
Here you go.
You're under IA, but I justtold you what I did.
What do I need to be under IAfor now?
(34:14):
Right right you know so, andthen I would see other officers
or deputies or what have you dofar worse but never got in
trouble for it or, because ofwho they were and who they knew
within the agency, never got introuble.
So then you also have that partof the law enforcement side of
okay.
So now there's unequaltreatment, but nobody wants to
(34:35):
bring that up.
Nobody wants to bring up thewhole.
Wait a second.
This dude did this this.
This dude did that far worsethan I did, and they're they
didn't.
They got slapped on the wrist.
Here I am sitting, you know,with either a reprimand or a
suspension.
You know how's that fair.
Tyra Valeriano (34:53):
We call it the buddy buddy system, and I think
what it is is.
It's not that nobody brings itup.
At least in my experience, theybrought it up but it was denied
.
No, that doesn't exist.
That's not true and it clearlyexists.
I mean, the buddy-buddy systemis there and I do agree that we
used to have this joke that theworst you could do, you would
(35:14):
get promoted.
So it's like, oh hey, who didreally bad this year?
Because they have a promotioncoming up, we think they're
going to get promoted if theyput in for it.
And I mean most of the time.
I would say that there was agood handful of people where
they did the worst during thatyear and they got promoted.
So yeah, I mean, I do think itexists.
Nathan Clark (35:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I mean.
So, yeah, I mean, like I said,said that's probably some of the
darkest part of it is just, youknow the the reality is nobody
has your back and I hate sayingthat they don't have your back.
Um, you know, and that wasprobably one of the hardest
things I had to swallow, becauseI love the profession.
(35:53):
I still love the profession,don't get me wrong, but that was
part of the hardest thing I hadto come to realization is is
they don't care, they reallydon't.
Even your administrationdoesn't care.
You know, um, because it startsfrom the top, and I think that's
why it is the way it is,because I think, I think the
reality is your, your people,you know your line level, people
(36:16):
, the guys you work with everyday.
They probably do care, butbecause the way the job is
designed, if you hang around abad apple now you're gonna.
You know um, what is it?
Um?
Guilty by association?
Essentially, you know well, whyare you hanging out with that
guy?
He's known for this and this orwhatever she's known for this,
and that you know um, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
(36:39):
So it's kind of ingrainedsubconsciously, I think.
Tyra Valeriano (36:43):
Um, you know so I guess you could say the other
part of the dark side is there'sa lot of mental abuse within
the job yeah, but it's neverreally addressed yeah, you know,
there was some advice that Igot in the academy and I can't
remember who told me, but theytold me that they told, actually
(37:06):
, my whole class.
I started with 23 people and weended with five because the
whole class practically gotkicked out for drinking.
Anyways, the five of us thatwere left, we were told that the
only person to keep an eye outfor is the name on your badge,
or the name on your nameplate,which is yourself.
And I remember that my wholecareer.
(37:27):
I would always think about that.
And I went to one shift party.
My entire career I never went toshift parties, and for a good
reason.
Mean you had people gettinginto IA because of shift parties
or because of what rumor millsaid, you know.
So now you're underinvestigation for stuff that you
did off duty, but it doesn'tmatter, because you're under the
(37:47):
microscope regardless.
And the one shift party I wentto, I want to say I was already
a supervisor and I didn't wantto let my shift down.
You know they're just like comeon, you're a supervisor, you
got to come, so I went and Iwent for two hours and I was
gone, but that was it.
That was the only time I wentand I took that to the heart
when somebody told me that andI'm glad I did, because a lot of
(38:09):
new recruits these days they'renot told that and we learn the
hard way.
You know this is what it is isthat you get into law
enforcement and there's just allthese things that you don't
know and you learn along the wayand then by the time you learn
I mean there's some kind ofdestruction in your life,
whether it's mental health,whether it's your personal life
(38:29):
or something you did in yourcareer that you didn't know.
And now you're in trouble, andI'm hoping that this podcast is
going to help people learn thesethings, because I want them to
be successful.
I wish I would have known someof the things that I know now,
because I'm sure I could havehelped myself in some areas,
just like I'm sure you feel likeyou probably could have too.
(38:50):
I know you said that you wouldyou.
Well, let's go back toleadership.
You said that it starts fromthe top.
So how would you say thatleadership varied in agencies?
Do you think that it was verydifferent from each agency, or
was it kind of similar and theexperience was about the same
(39:13):
when it came to that?
Nathan Clark (39:18):
That's a tough one , I would say, from agency to
agency.
Obviously, on the outside it'sall the same, you know, but when
you really get down to it itreally gets down to who actually
cares, who didn't forget wherethey came from.
When they get to the top, Iguess what it gets down to.
So that's kind of a hard one toanswer, because each time there
(39:43):
was somebody that would find mefrom the top and be a mentor to
me or you know, I had peoplegunning it for me.
You know, I had one commanderat my first agency after, you
know, I was making some mistakeshere and there and one day he
finally said hey, you're, you'redoing great.
Finally I'm like, well, thanks,he goes, you're no longer on my
radar anymore.
I'm like I didn't know I was onyour radar.
That was what he said to me.
(40:06):
And you know, again, going fromagency, I would say probably the
best leadership I had was whenI worked for the state capitol.
You know they supported us ahundred percent.
I know one time I I was doingspeed enforcement downtown and I
stopped a legislator.
I gave him a ticket.
Yeah, I know how politics works.
Tyra Valeriano (40:27):
That what happened?
Nathan Clark (40:29):
Yeah, as soon as I got done with that cause, I
stood my ground and you know myintegrity.
I was going to, I was going toyou know, balk on that one.
And as soon as he left, I'mlike I'm probably going to get
in trouble.
But so I immediately called myboss and I told him what
happened.
He's like you did what I go.
Yeah, I gave this person aticket.
(40:51):
He goes.
All right, well, stand by.
And sure as heck, I get a phonecall from my captain within
five minutes saying hey, meet mein the office, cool, let's go.
And I will honestly say thatwas part of the best experience
I ever had, because he 100%supported me in my decision
Didn't didn't, did not chastiseme or anything said.
(41:13):
we have a job to do.
It doesn't matter who you are.
Tyra Valeriano (41:15):
You understood that they're not in session, so
they're fair game, you know forpeople who are listening right
now and aren't familiar with lawenforcement, they may not know
that politics side.
That we know.
And of course you know you canpull over the judge's son and
(41:36):
the judge is going to call it inand say, hey, you know this, I
don't want this ticket for myson and guess what?
The ticket's going to go away.
And I'm not saying it happensall the time, but that is
another ugly side is thatpolitics play a heavy role in
police work and we really haveno discretion over that.
(41:56):
It's like you are going to haveto do your job but even though
you're doing your job, there'ssomebody else who's going to
tell you that you can't do yourjob and it's very unfortunate.
I remember when I first started.
It wasn't that bad.
But just like you said, thepast five to ten years in law
enforcement has changed a lotand things are very, very
(42:17):
different.
Has changed a lot and thingsare very, very different.
Have you had a body camerathroughout your whole career or
did that just start, you know,in a more recent time?
Nathan Clark (42:28):
No, I did have a body camera towards the end of
my tenure at the reservation.
Absolutely loved it, but I alsohated it.
I loved it because it bailed meout on a lot of complaints.
You know how people are,especially the drunks.
It cleared a lot of complaints.
They don't like it because wewere learning how to use them
(42:49):
and sometimes you forget to turnit off and you're having those
sidebars in the squad car andyou know words are being said
that probably shouldn't be said.
Yeah, I remember I was talkingto my buddy and we were just
throwing out f-bombs left orright and next thing you hear is
the, the buzzing going off, andwe look at each other and we're
like you didn't turn it off,did you?
Tyra Valeriano (43:09):
both of us didn't turn I've been through
that so many times yeah, um, butum, I absolutely loved them
just for that.
Nathan Clark (43:16):
Those reasons they they save your butt, and not
just your butt but the agency'sbutt and also the citizens.
You know it has its purpose.
It's just an additional tool.
I wouldn't say it's a save allbecause it's limited, just like
anything else, but for I guessyou could say, liability and
(43:38):
transparency, but also justkeeping people in line, it's a
great tool.
I think it's amazing.
My last agency we didn't havethem.
I wish we did, for variousreasons.
They won't get them for a whilethey are from.
What I was told is they arevery against them and I think I
(44:00):
know why.
I can't really say too muchright now, but I have a pretty
good reason why they don't wantthem.
Um, but they're going to haveto eventually get to them.
Tyra Valeriano (44:08):
Yeah, so do they use?
Do they use a recorder at least?
Nathan Clark (44:13):
Good old audio recorders.
Yes, I remember those batterieslast maybe a third of your
shift, even though you just gotthem out of the drawer.
Tyra Valeriano (44:23):
I remember those .
So tell me what you would sayis the highlight of your career.
What is something you put atthe top of your list that you
can recall and say that is oneof your proudest moments of your
career?
Nathan Clark (44:41):
I would say maybe two things.
One was well, maybe three.
So one was definitely at theuniversity level.
Being a newbie cop kind of sortof Universities have a policy.
I'm not going to say whichuniversity I worked for, but
there was a quiet policy abouthow to report crimes.
(45:01):
And I recall going through thedorm one night and just talking
to the people up front andthey're like, hey, we think a
crime occurred.
And I said, oh, I'll let youknow, tell me.
Well, we think a girl got raped.
So I investigated, essentiallyended up being a legit thing.
They weren't going to sayanything.
So I'm kind of happy about that.
(45:22):
Um and ended up being a goodcase.
Um, where she was scared to sayanything.
Um, initially, if you listen toit, if he just took it for face
value, it was questionable.
But the more I dug and actuallydelved into the questions, it
became a legit thing.
So I would say that would be agood one um.
But another one would be um,finding a runaway downtown
(45:46):
phoenix.
Um, actually there's two fordowntown phoenix but a runaway,
and just taking I spent about anhour and a half after chef's
talk with him and his familybecause he needed that.
He was a troubled kid and heappreciated it as well as his
parents.
And then, same thing is kind ofknowing your area.
We had a call of a female whohad overdosed.
(46:08):
Nobody knew where she was.
She was basically slowlypassing away because of the
overdose and the description shegave Phoenix police and our
agency.
Um, it could have been anywhere, but there was something very
specific she had said about abillboard and I knew exactly
where she was, so I was able totrack her down and get her, get
her saved immediately.
(46:30):
Um and then I would say thefinal one would be my last
agency was we got a call of afemale who was contemplating
suicide.
Um, she was home drinking.
I get there, have a niceconversation with her For about
an hour and a half.
She was adamant she was notgoing to kill herself, but I saw
enough in her eyes, enough inher demeanor that if we left she
(46:53):
was going to follow through,and I was able to talk her into
actually going to the hospitaland getting help.
And two weeks later she said,yeah, I was going to do it, had
you, if you left.
And she said thank you foractually being stubborn and
sticking with it and not lettingme do it.
Tyra Valeriano (47:10):
Those are great stories.
Thank you for sharing that.
What do you say is yourfavorite part about civilian
life?
Nathan Clark (47:20):
what do you say is your favorite part about
civilian life?
Ooh, civilian life.
I would probably say just notworrying about my kids being in
danger, because we hadtake-homes and I think a couple
of years ago when they weretalking about Antifa and all of
them going into neighborhoodsand all that.
I remember that night verydistinctly because my kids slept
(47:42):
upstairs with bats and baseballgloves and cleats and all these
things in the room because theywere scared that we were going
to be targeted.
So that was probably an eyeopener.
And being out of the job, I cansay that I'm a little bit happy
on that side because they don'thave to stress about that
anymore, you know.
Tyra Valeriano (48:02):
That's great.
Yeah, I remember when thathappened too, we had take-home
units, and when we talked abouthow it's just a in Spanish it's
chismosa Like it's just a bunchof people talking, right, just
rumor mill.
I was parking my unit in mygarage for a while because of
(48:22):
that, and I guess there weredispatchers that used to drive
by my house and they werewondering where I was at,
because they're just like hey,where's Tyra?
Her unit's not home, where isshe at?
Let's look for for her.
And I remember one of thedispatchers asking me hey, are
you out on duty because yourunit isn't home?
And I was just thinking likewhat the heck?
(48:44):
I can't even be safe for myfamily without people just being
nosy.
You know, that rumor mill it'snot just in the agency, it's in
dispatch too.
But no, I honestly do think,though, that that fear that we
have as parents or even, for,you know, our family in general,
it it kind of subsides when youget rid of that take-home unit
(49:08):
and you are able to be at homewith your family, and I don't
think it goes away for us.
I mean, you could disagree withme.
You know we're constantly onhigh alert for a while until
we're adjusted, but yeah, that'sdefinitely a relief.
There is one question that Iask all my guests, which maybe
you already know what thatquestion is, and I'm interested
(49:29):
to hear what this piece ofadvice would be, because you do
have a lot of experience.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you would give your
rookie self, based on everythingthat you know now?
Nathan Clark (49:43):
I would say probably the joking one would be
don't um basically don't playin the same playground that you
uh, you know um pooping, or youknow whatever.
Don't date amongst cops withinyou.
You know pooping, or you knowwhatever Don't date amongst cops
within your agency.
You know, that's probably oneof the biggest ones.
(50:04):
I never did, thank goodness,but I saw enough of it.
But the one thing that I wouldsay to my young self would be
don't take this job too serious.
Be serious, but don't take itserious, because you have a lot
more life ahead of you outsideof this job.
(50:25):
So have fun, Don't worry aboutthe little things, Worry about
the things that matter.
And then you know, let Godguide you the rest of the way.
Tyra Valeriano (50:38):
I love that and I think that is really good
advice.
So if there's any rookies outthere that can benefit from that
, I think that's great advice.
We are coming to an end of thepodcast for today.
Is there any contactinformation that you can share
with the listeners if they wannareach out to you?
Nathan Clark (50:54):
Sure, I can get ahold of me on my email nclark6
at hotmailcom.
N-c-l-a-r-k.
Number six at Hotmail.
That's part of the easiest way,because I pay more attention to
that than anything.
Tyra Valeriano (51:08):
Okay, is there anything else that you want to
add?
Nathan Clark (51:11):
No, I just want to say thank you for this
opportunity.
It was being, you know, firsttime.
It was amazing.
So, you know, maybe we can dothis again down the road,
because there's tons of topics,so I'm sure we can talk about um
, I used to work in dispatch too, so that's, that's all.
Tyra Valeriano (51:24):
Oh, oh see, I just I just stirred the pot.
Yeah, okay, no, yeah, actually,I think that would be a great
idea.
I appreciate your time.
Um, I think it would be reallygreat if we got on some topics
that we haven't discussed,because there are some things
that we talked about prior tothe podcast that I think would
(51:45):
be beneficial to other officershearing and maybe having some
perspective or hearing thatsomebody else can agree with
what they might be feeling orseeing in their career.
So I definitely think we willplan for a future episode and we
will talk about that a littlemore after we are done To the
listeners.
(52:05):
Thank you guys for tuning in andfor your continuous support.
If you're interested inbecoming a guest, please go to
my link on Instagram.
My Instagram handle is tvalunderscore official, or you can
go to my website,shieldofdutycom, and find the
schedule link on there.
Everyone be safe and I will seeyou on the next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
(52:28):
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're interested injoining an episode.
I'd love for you to be a partof the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Welcome back to another episodeof Chapter Blue.
(00:43):
It's been a wild ride jumpinginto the podcast space, but
coming into a space where lawenforcement can talk about
mental health, leadership,experience and stories is
becoming more relatable witheach shared experience.
Many of the participants toparticipate in their first
(01:07):
podcast.
Today, nathan Clark will bejoining me as a first timer on a
podcast, but he comes with 23years of law enforcement
experience and he is definitelynot a first timer with the
experience and knowledge he'sgained over those years.
So thank you, nathan, for yourtime and for joining the
conversation.
Tell us some more about yourbackground and what you're doing
today.
Nathan Clark (01:24):
Sure, first off, thanks for having me, tyra.
I'm looking forward to this.
I've been following you for awhile.
So again 23 years in lawenforcement.
I was kind of a transient copout here in Arizona, Started
with my first agency with theASU Police Department Very
interesting learning of theuniversity environment, I will
say Did that for about firstfive and a half, six years.
(01:46):
Then I just transitioned tothis estate agency, worked in a
state Capitol police for a whilefor about the same time, for
about five to six years, andthen I actually worked for a
reservation out here.
I don't want to say thereservation agency just because
they are very they don't like tobe exposed Very strict, but I
worked for them about sevenyears, just because they are
very, they don't like to beexposed Strict, right, very
(02:07):
strict, but I worked for themabout seven years.
That was an awesome gig, though,and then learned a lot, and
then my last agency was aservice office out here in
Arizona Again, great agency.
I learned a lot there, a lot ofexperiences as well.
The majority of my career wasfocused on traffic enforcement,
(02:27):
as well as collisioninvestigations and assisting
with homicide investigations andwhatnot.
Tyra Valeriano (02:33):
Very nice.
What would you say is yourfavorite out of all four
agencies that you worked for?
Nathan Clark (02:38):
It's kind of a toss-up.
To be quite frank with you, theSheriff's Office is its own
breed.
All the jokes about being in,you know, with the sheriff's
agency versus state or city aretrue.
So it was definitely kind ofthe wild west a little bit.
You really have to be on yourfeet, I would say that, and the
(02:59):
reservation to kind of go onehand to hand, because you kind
of have to be self-reliant,because you don't know how long
your backup is going to be, kindof have to be self-reliant
because you don't know how longyour backup is going to be.
So you have to be able to thinkquick on your feet but also
basically take care of yourself,or even your partners at that,
because, again, you're out inthe middle of nowhere sometimes
and your backup is probablygoing to be coming about 15, 20
(03:21):
minutes out.
Tyra Valeriano (03:23):
Nice Well reservation.
I've always had an interest inreservation police, Not that
I've ever really looked into it,but do they get assistance from
other agencies outside of thereservation, or is it just a
standalone unit?
Nathan Clark (03:38):
Most at least, out here in Arizona we have a
pretty good report.
The surrounding agencies, again, they are sovereign.
However, they have the mutualaid agreements where if we need
help, you know on thereservation, because of a
critical incident or what haveyou we do have those agencies
come out and assist.
Usually it's the state orhighway patrol.
(03:59):
We don't have state police outhere or it would be the
sheriff's office, depending onwhich jurisdiction or county
side you're on, because thereservation I worked for we
crossed into two counties so andsometimes we would have a city
agency come out and assist.
So I mean it kind of playednice with the other agencies,
(04:20):
but then when it gets down tobusiness, sometimes they just
kind of put their foot down andsay no, we're doing this, you
can, you can go now.
Tyra Valeriano (04:28):
So I know you mentioned that you did traffic
enforcement and I don't normallybring up politics at all, but
it's kind of just reminded me ofthat time when Arizona started
trying to identify people withtheir status.
Trying to identify people withtheir status, were you having to
(04:50):
do that while you were workingin an agency?
Nathan Clark (04:52):
And how did that work out for you?
So the reservation we kind ofhad a little bit of freelance to
do that because we kind of,again, we were sovereign, so we
didn't necessarily have tofollow state guidelines if we
didn't want to, because we stillhad tribal law and federal law
we had to enforce at the sametime.
(05:13):
So it really wasn't that big ofan issue.
We kind of toyed with it alittle bit.
But because again, it was astate law, the agency I worked
for at that time wasn't reallytoo worried about it.
We did have a good rapport withborder patrol if we needed them
.
So that was kind of nice.
But other than that we didn'thave that much of an issue.
I know surrounding agencies did.
(05:33):
They created a lot of policiesabout that.
I will say, when I transitionedwith the sheriff's office, I
did have to have a little bit ofa learning curve at that point
because I was still under theoppression.
We were still doing that.
However, at that point the lawhad changed so we weren't
allowed to ask about statusanymore per se.
Tyra Valeriano (05:52):
OK, I was just curious because you know, with
politics, like I said, I'mpretty sure there's going to be
a learning curve coming up and Iknow that Arizona already
experienced something like that.
So I was interested to hearyour side of the story, and I
know that Arizona alreadyexperienced something like that.
Nathan Clark (06:05):
So I was interested to hear your side of
the story.
Oh yeah, no, the closest I gotwith the politics was SB 1070,
when I worked at the Capitol.
I was involved in a lot of that, especially the protests that
occurred down at the Capitol.
Tyra Valeriano (06:17):
How was that working with protests?
Nathan Clark (06:19):
That was in and of itself interesting.
So I worked with the CapitolCapitol police at that time, so
we were kind of our own entity.
Let me just say I'm not a fanof large crowds anymore.
After that, a lot of times wewere stuck in the middle trying
to save the agitators and we gotpelted a lot by bottles, rocks
(06:41):
and what have you, and it's avery unnerving feeling when
you've got a lot of angry peopleyelling at you or whether you
know.
Obviously you know that it'snot because of you but it's
because of the badge and uniformthat it represents.
It's definitely unnerving whenyou have an angry mob mentality
and you really have nowhere togo.
So you kind of have that kind of.
(07:02):
I don't like large crowdsbecause of that, in a way.
Tyra Valeriano (07:05):
I can see that you know I'm curious because my
podcast is it mainly circlesaround mental health and you
worked for four differentagencies.
How were resources for you as apolice officer working under
each agency?
Were they available or did theyhave any type of protocol that
(07:28):
they followed, if there wassomething an officer needed?
Nathan Clark (07:33):
So that is interesting.
So growing up as a baby cop,you know, starting about 21
years old, I saw the change inhow we do law enforcement when
it comes to mental health.
I really didn't see anythingfor us until about my last
agency, the agency that I workedfor.
Then the sheriff's officestarted really looking into it,
(07:54):
trying to take care of the linedeputies, I guess you could say,
and pretty much anybody, but Ithink they still could do more.
But we were definitely startingto get psychologists on site,
for if we had a criticalincident we would maybe have a
debrief.
And I know one of my moreserious events, more briefly, it
(08:20):
was a quadruple homicide wherebasically everybody, including a
child about age one, wasbeheaded and they just had me
sign up or sign me up.
I had a psychologist call me onshift one day and we had about
a 30 minute debrief.
So that's when they reallystarted taking a look into it to
(08:41):
say, hey, this is something weneed to take, we need to adjust,
just to be safe.
Tyra Valeriano (08:47):
Right, was that 30 minutes sufficient for you?
Nathan Clark (08:51):
So for me, at that time I wasn't too worried about
it because, as you know, cops,we can compress our thoughts and
emotions and feelings quitewell and basically at that time
I just kept busy with patrolcalls and what have you, and so
I really didn't put too muchthought into it.
But also at that point I hadalready seen enough, you know,
(09:13):
homicides, deaths and whatnot.
So I at that point I wasn'treally too affected until later,
later on.
Tyra Valeriano (09:21):
Okay, and how did you deal with that?
Nathan Clark (09:24):
The later on side.
So what kind of kicked it intooverdrive, I guess you could say
for me was 2021 was kind of ahard one for me.
April of 21, that's when it'sstill in court right now.
(09:45):
I had a car chase that starteddown in southern Arizona and
ended up in basically the metroPhoenix area and multiple
agencies.
I was shot at during my pursuitand ultimately an officer from
a neighboring agency was killedas a result of it and I
witnessed it.
So that was kind of what kindof kicked it a little bit.
(10:06):
Um, that uh survivors remorsetype deal, um, and then later on
that about 20, a year laterDecember November maybe, ish,
when I was sitting in officeafter I had to go and help
investigate a double fatal oftwo children teenagers kind of.
(10:28):
What opened it up was one ofthe fatalities was a 15-year-old
boy that pretty much mirroredmy 15-year-old at home almost a
spitting image and I had a lotof time to reflect and I'm like,
okay, this isn't okay anymore,this isn't okay anymore.
So at that point, that's whenwe had there was a law passed in
(10:49):
Arizona where we can reach outfor a counselor or psychologist
free of cost, and we wereallotted, I think about 27
sessions or something of thatnature, and so I took advantage
of that, and that was through myagency at the time.
Tyra Valeriano (11:01):
And did that help you.
Nathan Clark (11:03):
Um, it did because , um, as you know, we okay cops
keep things to themselves.
I really, um, didn't bring mywork home a lot, I didn't talk
about it very much, so I justcompressed a lot of what I saw
through the past 20 some oddyears.
Tyra Valeriano (11:17):
So okay, where are you somebody who talks to
your family about any of thethings that you experience on
shift?
Nathan Clark (11:32):
Yes and no.
So I might say this is kind ofwhat happened, but I don't go
into details because that wasone thing in the academy we kind
of were taught was this issomething you don't want to
bring home typically to yourfamily.
And as I started going throughmy career, learning more about
the mental health side of it,you know I've kind of learned
about secondary trauma Whereas,ok, I might be the one seeing
the trauma but then if I starttalking to others that weren't
(11:53):
there, they can startexperiencing the trauma just by
hearing the details and all that.
So I learned real quick keepthat to myself because I don't
know how it's going to affectothers Down the road.
Obviously it affected me alittle bit more than I probably
should have allowed, but I wasjust looking more for the mental
health of my family, you know,my children essentially, and
(12:14):
everybody, friends and familiesand say, hey, you probably don't
want to see this part of thelaw enforcement side, you know,
or hear about it.
Tyra Valeriano (12:22):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say that.
It's probably one of theunfortunate things about law
enforcement is just, you can'treally talk about what you see
at work, obviously for legalreasons, especially if there's
an investigation, but then, ofcourse, when it's over with, you
don't want that secondarytrauma for your family.
(12:42):
I can't say that all familymembers are the same, because
you have your family membersthat are interested.
They want to hear the warstories, you know, but sometimes
you just don't know whatthey're going to react or say to
the things that you've beenthrough.
With that being said, how doyou think that your or maybe you
(13:05):
don't know, I don't know do youthink that your children saw a
change in you when theseincidents happen in 2021
compared to prior experience inlaw enforcement?
Nathan Clark (13:18):
um, honestly, I don't know.
So my, my children are mucholder now, um, during that time
frame, all pretty much teenagers.
Um, they're pretty um, aware ofthe job, because I kind of I do
tell them, you know, this isone of those things where we see
the good things but we also seethe really horrible things that
a man can do to each other, um,or to themselves, and um, I
(13:42):
kind of get again, withoutputting any things into detail,
I kind of tell them things.
But the funny part of it isalso so a little side bit is I
grew up watching horror movies,which is probably why it doesn't
affect me as much per se.
But I've also got my kidsinvolved in horror movies
because they would sneak out inthe middle of the night so they
(14:02):
would watch those things.
So they're a littledesensitized as well.
Um, I would say my daughter isprobably more like me, so she
understands a lot of it.
Um, and then going, my two boysthey, they're just boys, um,
they, they're not too worriedabout it.
So did they see much of achange?
I, I, I hit it pretty well,let's just put it that way um,
(14:23):
um, so I again, I compressed alot of it, everything was fine.
You know, um didn't tell them Iwas doing therapy for a little
bit.
Um, just because, uh, as youknow, cops were were kind of
macho, so, um, I really wasn'tsure how I wanted to play that
one saying, hey, your dadprobably having some issues here
, um, you know, cause that'ssupposed to be the strong one,
(14:44):
so.
So it took a little bit, butagain, once they realized I was
doing that, they were like okay,that's cool.
You know, good guys are doingwhat you need to do.
Tyra Valeriano (14:55):
Do any of them want to be police officers when
they grow up?
Nathan Clark (14:59):
My daughter did, until she heard a lot of other
negative things about the job.
And then obviously you knowwatching the news, you know the
political side of it, shequickly realized that's probably
not what I want to be doing.
And then my middle, my oldestson was thinking of it, and then
kind of the same deal.
The media, I guess you couldsay, kind of played a huge role
(15:22):
in making their decisions atthat point, because they
initially did want to follow inmy footsteps.
But after seeing how cops havebeen treated within the past,
you know, let's say five, tenyears, it kind of really changed
their mindset a little bit.
Tyra Valeriano (15:36):
Yeah, understandable.
How are you doing today aftereverything?
How do you feel you've donesince everything happened?
Nathan Clark (15:45):
each day is better .
Um, like I said, um, you know I, I kind of worked through a lot
of that stuff.
Um, it's always going to bethere, obviously, so, um, but
I'm not, you know, I'm not doingit as much, I'm not doing it at
all, in fact, unless I have togo to court for anything else.
But, um, you know it'sinteresting, the transition, um,
(16:07):
going from being a cop to beingjust a regular person again.
That in of itself is its owntopic, just kind of a transition
lifestyle you have to gothrough.
So I would say, not having todeal with the hustle and bustle
of, you know, going call to callthe adrenaline, all that stuff,
I really that part didn'treally affect me too much, um,
(16:30):
because I was able to find otherthings to keep me.
Um, I guess you could say levelheaded on that Um, but I guess
you could say that the therapyhelped a lot.
Um, I'm more open into talkingabout it than, rather than just
keeping it in anymore.
You know, I think more or lessjust to be a voice for for some
(16:53):
that you know are scared to talkabout stuff like that.
Tyra Valeriano (16:56):
Right and that, and that's honestly a really
good message because, just likeyou said, there is this ego and
macho perspective that or or Iguess you can say we give out.
As police officers, we can dealwith everything and anything
and we're not human.
We, you know, we don't need totalk to anybody, but the reality
is is that everybodyexperiences trauma in a
(17:18):
different way.
It doesn't have to be a crimescene, it doesn't have to be you
know something job related, itcould even be home life, it can
be leadership.
I had a guest who talked aboutleadership being the driving
force of his mental healthissues.
So there's definitely anexperience for everyone.
I am curious to hear what wereyour hobbies before you became a
(17:43):
police officer at 21?
What did you like to do?
Nathan Clark (17:46):
Oh, just anything outdoors, really Outdoor stuff
hang out with friends, basically, go to the gym, you know, just
movies, games, just very, verysimple things.
And yeah, that's really aboutit.
I mean just learning new thingsbasically.
Tyra Valeriano (18:09):
So with your transition, would you say that
you are able to continue thosehobbies that you had back then,
before you became a policeofficer?
Nathan Clark (18:17):
Actually I tried to maintain a lot of those
throughout my career becausethat's where I said I kind of
kept my, was able to keep myselfin check that way.
Again, that was a promise Itold myself when I started this
career.
First thing was no alcohol,cops and alcohol don't mix,
don't, don't make poor decisionswith people as well.
(18:38):
So you know, I try to keep alevel head because I had, before
becoming a cop, I was actuallya police explorer for about
three to four years with a localagency out here and I got a lot
of good advice from supervisorsthat were over us.
So they kind of helped mefigure out how to be a cop
before I was a cop and gave mereally good advice.
So they said, if you havehobbies before, maintain them
(19:03):
throughout your career, becausethat's what's going to help a
little bit with, you know, yourmental health, but also just
staying in shape mentally,physically and emotionally.
So I try to maintain a lot ofthose things throughout my
career to help in between,obviously, call outs and whatnot
.
Tyra Valeriano (19:19):
So how is the transition been for you?
I know a lot of people strugglewith identity.
I did.
I struggled with identity for awhile and I want to say
sometimes it's still sparks upin there from time to time.
I mean, is there any strugglesthat you've had since you've
been transitioning into thecivilian life?
Nathan Clark (19:38):
Um, the only hard thing I could say, because I,
when I was off the clock, I wasoff the clock, you know, I
wasn't that gung-ho guy who, ifI see something, I'm going to do
something about it.
Something about it, no, I I'llcall, I don't want to get
involved, not my circus.
So, um, but I would say thehardest thing, working, or just
(20:03):
I would just be, I guess I wouldsay the work environment would
be how to talk to people,because obviously we talk in a
different language and I have tolearn very quickly.
You cannot talk a certain wayto people in a civilian type job
and even you know circles.
You know you got to be carefulwhat you say and how you say,
(20:27):
basically read the room.
So I have to.
I had to learn really quick togo OK, so you're about the same
age, but you probably can't, Iprobably can't say certain
things or say certain jokes.
You know, because, as you know,law enforcement, we have dark
humor and sometimes it's alittle too dark.
Tyra Valeriano (20:44):
Right.
It's funny that you said that.
I can relate to that 100%.
I still feel like I don't knowhow to talk to people and my
husband thank God he'severywhere with me, so when he
sees me falling off of aconversation he'll pick up for
me because he knows, he justknows, and we actually just
talked about it earlier todaywhen he was just like you know,
(21:04):
I'm tired and if we go hang outwith these people then I'm going
to have to pick up the slackand I'm just like I'm sorry.
I'm working on it.
I even even in the podcast I'venoticed that in the very
beginning I struggled becauseI'm so used to asking questions
in a law enforcement manner andit's so weird asking questions
to spark a conversation becauseI am interested.
(21:27):
But it's like very difficultwhen you've been doing it for so
long.
You don't know what to ask andmaybe you don't want to be too
invasive and normally we're veryinvasive.
So it's been an interestingexperience.
So I definitely can relate toyou on that.
Nathan Clark (21:41):
Oh, definitely I know.
Um.
Again in the civilian world Iwill say my bosses enjoy what I
did because they they see that Ihold myself with command
presence.
Still, they see the leadershipqualities in me.
So that's kind of the good part.
But then on the other side ofit, when I speak to new people
at work they're like well,excuse me, I don't know if we
(22:01):
can swear on this, but I'll bevery not colorful.
You're kind of like a dicksometimes, just the way you kind
of talk to people or you lookor you stand on like I didn't
think I was, but you don't thinkthat you are, because we're.
So again, as you said, you'reaccustomed to doing things a
certain way and a lot of peoplewhen they first meet me the
first question is were you inthe military?
(22:22):
And if not, were you a cop?
Because of how you?
You know how you are, yourdemeanor, everything, because of
how you are, your demeanor,everything.
Tyra Valeriano (22:29):
And it's funny because I know exactly what
you're saying and sometimes Istill have that attitude.
Well, I mean, that's what theythink.
If that's what they want tothink, then so be it.
You know, it's like I don'tcare.
I'm not going to sit here andtry to make them like me, or I'm
not going to kiss their ass sothat they can be like oh, she's
really nice.
Nathan Clark (22:47):
Yeah, yeah, so I get that.
Tyra Valeriano (22:50):
So there is a topic that I am interested in
discussing with you, and I thinkit's going to be very
interesting, because you haveworked for several departments,
so you have a lot of insight ondifferent jurisdictions,
different leadership styles,even down to policies,
procedures and law.
The dark part of lawenforcement for you can be
(23:14):
different for everyone, but I'minterested to hear what was a
dark part of law enforcement foryou.
Nathan Clark (23:21):
Okay.
So there's a lot of that.
So I guess you could sayprobably gonna make a lot of
fans by saying this straight offthe bat, cause I had this topic
with somebody at work the othernight, cause we were talking
about something we all know thethin blue line, and it's all
paraded as cops, family, thisand that, but what they don't
(23:43):
see is exactly how thin thatline really is.
As we both know, when thingsare good, it's great.
You know you're either thegolden child in your agency or
you're, you know, everybody'sfavorite, or the go to person,
this and that when things aregood.
However, when things go bad,you learn quickly in this job
(24:06):
they're not there for you.
That's just the straight up,one of the darkest parts of this
job.
Being in many different agencies, you also learn real quick that
you really need to just be well.
At least for me, I learned Icould only rely on myself.
I relied on my partners forcertain things, but a lot of it
(24:26):
was nope, I'm not going to hangout with that group.
I'm not going to hang out withthat group because that group's
known for being brown nosers.
This group's known for gettingin trouble, and that's not my
cup of tea.
So then you're pretty much anoutcast, and a lot of times
throughout my career it didn'tmatter which agency I was I hung
out by myself after an incidentat my first agency where I
(24:51):
thought I could be open with apartner and they pretty much
turned me in for something Ididn't even do intentionally and
I got in trouble for him likewait a second, that was just a
conversation you and I had.
Why would you do that?
Tyra Valeriano (25:04):
And so that's when I said to myself.
Nathan Clark (25:06):
Yep, I'm going to keep to myself because I can't
trust this person.
And you know, again, it getsdown to a dog eat dog world.
You know cops are in it forthemselves in reality and you
know I hate saying that, butthat's that's kind of the
reality of it is.
It's no different than anythingelse.
You know everybody's trying todo that career, climb that
(25:37):
career ladder and whatever theyhave to burn, they will burn you
.
But again, also, 23 years, I'vefound myself on the other side
of the IA.
You know, and we've all beenthere, and that in of itself I
would probably say the darkestpart of this career, because
when you're under that of those,those that lovely word Garrity,
um, you, that's a very lonelyworld.
Um, you don't have friendsanymore, you don't have anybody.
Um, because as much as you wantto talk about what's going on,
(26:01):
you can't.
And that in and of itself kindof goes hand in hand with the
mental health side of this job,because you can't talk to
anybody and you know the traumathat that puts you through in
itself is a lot.
You know a lot of stress,especially if you're worried
about your career at that point,you know you, I know, working
(26:23):
for my reservation.
They do things a little bitdifferent and I was kind of put
on probation due to what'scalled a adjudication, where
basically it's a federal reviewand I was in jeopardy of my job
because it's a differentstandard, even though I met
statewide requirements.
I was told by my chief you mayor may not have a job because of
(26:44):
this review, based off of whatother things that have happened
in your past.
That post doesn't care about it, but the feds.
Due to the point system, youmay not meet the standards.
Now, um, so that was, uh, againa lot of stress.
And then, um, after I clearedall that, again, um, people talk
, you know, and um, to your face, they're going to be you're the
(27:09):
best cop ever.
I later find out people aresaying you know he's he, you
know he's not a good cop, he'sjust not.
He's always in trouble becausethey don't cause, they don't
know the whole story, they justhear you know through the
grapevine.
This is may or may have beenwhat happened and again, that's
you know.
Again, part of the dark side oflaw enforcement is the rumor
(27:29):
realm.
You know, we've all been thereRumor, rumor, rumor, and those
can make or break your careerand whether there's any validity
to it.
That's a really scary thing.
You know we're supposed to befact finders and objective and
yet when it comes to internally,we'll believe a rumor just as
(27:51):
fast as anything.
And then you're going to gowait a second.
What just happened?
Tyra Valeriano (27:57):
Yeah, you know, those are all I mean.
I've said it before and there'stimes where I've gotten heat for
mentioning the thin blue linebecause that is such a huge
topic and you have a lot ofofficers who will come and say,
you know, I don't agree with youbecause this is the best job in
the world.
Well, that we're not sayingthat it's not right.
(28:17):
We love the profession.
We're not disagreeing with you,but these are the topics that I
feel are glamorized and thetruth isn't really there.
The, the thin blue line someone of my friends actually told
me the other day cause we hadthis conversation.
He mentioned that the thin blueline is now what stands between
law enforcement and society,rather than it being the family
(28:40):
unit that everybody portrays itto be, and I thought that was
very interesting.
I thought, wow, that's, that's.
I would say that's true.
And then, of course, you know,everybody comes together in a
time of need, when there's anofficer killed in the line of
duty or injured, everybody'ssupportive.
But when it comes to you as anofficer, feeling that family
(29:02):
feeling, it really isn't thatit's.
It's very different.
And you know you talk about um,I call it blackball, you know if
you go through something withyour agency and let's say you
decide to leave or you decide toapply for another department,
you can get blackballed.
You know conspiring with eachother against you to say, hey,
(29:34):
he did this, don't hire him, orshe did this, and it makes it
very hard for somebody tocontinue their career.
And then again on the IAs ofcourse everybody goes through
those.
But you literally justmentioned something I didn't
even think about and that is avery lonely process because for
me and my agency, everybody knewyou were in an IA because there
was a white envelope in yourbox and all somebody has to do
(29:58):
is, if it's sealed and it hasyour name, oh, we know.
So everybody knows.
They just don't know what it'sabout.
So everybody's talking, tryingto decide what you're going
through.
Why did you get called into IA?
And just all of these crazythings.
And, yeah, you can't talk aboutit.
And I, and I think that that'sone of the reasons why mental
health is a problem, becauseeven with those things that you
(30:22):
cannot talk to anybody about,there's also the things that
you're going through that youcan't talk to anybody about
because you're not supposed toright, you're a cop, you got to
tough it out.
There's no reason for you totalk about these things, man
Like you're good.
Nathan Clark (30:37):
Right, no, and again, going with that, you know
it almost makes you feel I'llbe very careful how I phrase
this a little bit of empathywith criminals at times, because
sometimes you are treated justas bad when you're under any
kind of investigation or whathave you.
(30:57):
Because you know the one personthat you know.
I'll tell you right now fromexperience, one that I went
through recently.
Um, it was pretty serious, um,and I was cleared on one side of
it and another side wasn't somuch but, um, without getting
into too much detail, but youknow my circle of friends that I
(31:19):
thought I had, you know, theywere kind of there for a little
bit, um, we didn't talk too muchabout it.
And then, um, as things startedslowly clearing out, um, that's
when a lot of rumors were beingsaid about me and I could hear
what people were saying, whatthey were, and those friends
eventually said bye, I'm notreturning your calls anymore,
(31:41):
I'm not returning your textsanymore.
And again, you know we can getin trouble for talking about it.
But one day I get a call fromsomebody from my old agency my
old agency, mind you and thefirst thing out of the mouth was
I heard you got in trouble forthis.
I'm like how do you know aboutthis?
(32:02):
Because somebody in the IAsection is talking about it and
that really, and there's nothingI can do about it at that point
, because you know you're again.
You're essentially where Iworded it was you're guilty
before proven innocent in anykind of an IA and and I get it,
(32:22):
I you know, I was a supervisorat one point.
I understand the administrativeside of it, but I think there's
got to be a better process tofor that, because a lot of
people I've seen throughouttheir careers either quit
because of IAs or, worst casescenario, do self-harm because
of the stress they, becauseagain, it gets down to that you
(32:44):
being ostracized, you, you can'tdo this, you can't do that.
You're basically where I wasgoing at the beginning.
When things are good, they'regood.
When trouble hits, you're justa number at that point and
you're easily replaced, you'reeasily forgotten.
It doesn't matter what you'vedone through your career, all
(33:09):
the goods.
It's really easy to say this isthe bad stuff you've done.
We can highlight this.
We're not going to highlightthe good you've done throughout
your career, but we're going tohighlight the negative things
and I think that speaks volumes,you know there.
There there's that biasness whenit comes to stuff like that and
(33:29):
that's part of that dark sideof law enforcement that, no,
they don't tell you about youknow of.
You know, when you're introuble, stand by you know, or
even believe to be in.
You know in trouble, stand by,you know, and again going with
the dark side of it.
It's quite the I don't knowwhat the word I'm trying to say
(33:52):
here, but it's like I guess thebest thing is damned if you do
and damned if you don't.
You know, a lot of timesthroughout my career I would get
in trouble because I was honest.
I would tell myself peopleweren't around when something
happened.
I go hey, I did this.
Oh, thanks for letting us know.
Here you go.
You're under IA, but I justtold you what I did.
What do I need to be under IAfor now?
(34:14):
Right right you know so, andthen I would see other officers
or deputies or what have you dofar worse but never got in
trouble for it or, because ofwho they were and who they knew
within the agency, never got introuble.
So then you also have that partof the law enforcement side of
okay.
So now there's unequaltreatment, but nobody wants to
(34:35):
bring that up.
Nobody wants to bring up thewhole.
Wait a second.
This dude did this this.
This dude did that far worsethan I did, and they're they
didn't.
They got slapped on the wrist.
Here I am sitting, you know,with either a reprimand or a
suspension.
You know how's that fair.
Tyra Valeriano (34:53):
We call it the buddy buddy system, and I think
what it is is.
It's not that nobody brings itup.
At least in my experience, theybrought it up but it was denied
.
No, that doesn't exist.
That's not true and it clearlyexists.
I mean, the buddy-buddy systemis there and I do agree that we
used to have this joke that theworst you could do, you would
(35:14):
get promoted.
So it's like, oh hey, who didreally bad this year?
Because they have a promotioncoming up, we think they're
going to get promoted if theyput in for it.
And I mean most of the time.
I would say that there was agood handful of people where
they did the worst during thatyear and they got promoted.
So yeah, I mean, I do think itexists.
Nathan Clark (35:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I mean.
So, yeah, I mean, like I said,said that's probably some of the
darkest part of it is just, youknow the the reality is nobody
has your back and I hate sayingthat they don't have your back.
Um, you know, and that wasprobably one of the hardest
things I had to swallow, becauseI love the profession.
(35:53):
I still love the profession,don't get me wrong, but that was
part of the hardest thing I hadto come to realization is is
they don't care, they reallydon't.
Even your administrationdoesn't care.
You know, um, because it startsfrom the top, and I think that's
why it is the way it is,because I think, I think the
reality is your, your people,you know your line level, people
(36:16):
, the guys you work with everyday.
They probably do care, butbecause the way the job is
designed, if you hang around abad apple now you're gonna.
You know um, what is it?
Um?
Guilty by association?
Essentially, you know well, whyare you hanging out with that
guy?
He's known for this and this orwhatever she's known for this,
and that you know um, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
(36:39):
So it's kind of ingrainedsubconsciously, I think.
Tyra Valeriano (36:43):
Um, you know so I guess you could say the other
part of the dark side is there'sa lot of mental abuse within
the job yeah, but it's neverreally addressed yeah, you know,
there was some advice that Igot in the academy and I can't
remember who told me, but theytold me that they told, actually
(37:06):
, my whole class.
I started with 23 people and weended with five because the
whole class practically gotkicked out for drinking.
Anyways, the five of us thatwere left, we were told that the
only person to keep an eye outfor is the name on your badge,
or the name on your nameplate,which is yourself.
And I remember that my wholecareer.
(37:27):
I would always think about that.
And I went to one shift party.
My entire career I never went toshift parties, and for a good
reason.
Mean you had people gettinginto IA because of shift parties
or because of what rumor millsaid, you know.
So now you're underinvestigation for stuff that you
did off duty, but it doesn'tmatter, because you're under the
(37:47):
microscope regardless.
And the one shift party I wentto, I want to say I was already
a supervisor and I didn't wantto let my shift down.
You know they're just like comeon, you're a supervisor, you
got to come, so I went and Iwent for two hours and I was
gone, but that was it.
That was the only time I wentand I took that to the heart
when somebody told me that andI'm glad I did, because a lot of
(38:09):
new recruits these days they'renot told that and we learn the
hard way.
You know this is what it is isthat you get into law
enforcement and there's just allthese things that you don't
know and you learn along the wayand then by the time you learn
I mean there's some kind ofdestruction in your life,
whether it's mental health,whether it's your personal life
(38:29):
or something you did in yourcareer that you didn't know.
And now you're in trouble, andI'm hoping that this podcast is
going to help people learn thesethings, because I want them to
be successful.
I wish I would have known someof the things that I know now,
because I'm sure I could havehelped myself in some areas,
just like I'm sure you feel likeyou probably could have too.
(38:50):
I know you said that you wouldyou.
Well, let's go back toleadership.
You said that it starts fromthe top.
So how would you say thatleadership varied in agencies?
Do you think that it was verydifferent from each agency, or
was it kind of similar and theexperience was about the same
(39:13):
when it came to that?
Nathan Clark (39:18):
That's a tough one , I would say, from agency to
agency.
Obviously, on the outside it'sall the same, you know, but when
you really get down to it itreally gets down to who actually
cares, who didn't forget wherethey came from.
When they get to the top, Iguess what it gets down to.
So that's kind of a hard one toanswer, because each time there
(39:43):
was somebody that would find mefrom the top and be a mentor to
me or you know, I had peoplegunning it for me.
You know, I had one commanderat my first agency after, you
know, I was making some mistakeshere and there and one day he
finally said hey, you're, you'redoing great.
Finally I'm like, well, thanks,he goes, you're no longer on my
radar anymore.
I'm like I didn't know I was onyour radar.
That was what he said to me.
(40:06):
And you know, again, going fromagency, I would say probably the
best leadership I had was whenI worked for the state capitol.
You know they supported us ahundred percent.
I know one time I I was doingspeed enforcement downtown and I
stopped a legislator.
I gave him a ticket.
Yeah, I know how politics works.
Tyra Valeriano (40:27):
That what happened?
Nathan Clark (40:29):
Yeah, as soon as I got done with that cause, I
stood my ground and you know myintegrity.
I was going to, I was going toyou know, balk on that one.
And as soon as he left, I'mlike I'm probably going to get
in trouble.
But so I immediately called myboss and I told him what
happened.
He's like you did what I go.
Yeah, I gave this person aticket.
(40:51):
He goes.
All right, well, stand by.
And sure as heck, I get a phonecall from my captain within
five minutes saying hey, meet mein the office, cool, let's go.
And I will honestly say thatwas part of the best experience
I ever had, because he 100%supported me in my decision
Didn't didn't, did not chastiseme or anything said.
(41:13):
we have a job to do.
It doesn't matter who you are.
Tyra Valeriano (41:15):
You understood that they're not in session, so
they're fair game, you know forpeople who are listening right
now and aren't familiar with lawenforcement, they may not know
that politics side.
That we know.
And of course you know you canpull over the judge's son and
(41:36):
the judge is going to call it inand say, hey, you know this, I
don't want this ticket for myson and guess what?
The ticket's going to go away.
And I'm not saying it happensall the time, but that is
another ugly side is thatpolitics play a heavy role in
police work and we really haveno discretion over that.
(41:56):
It's like you are going to haveto do your job but even though
you're doing your job, there'ssomebody else who's going to
tell you that you can't do yourjob and it's very unfortunate.
I remember when I first started.
It wasn't that bad.
But just like you said, thepast five to ten years in law
enforcement has changed a lotand things are very, very
(42:17):
different.
Has changed a lot and thingsare very, very different.
Have you had a body camerathroughout your whole career or
did that just start, you know,in a more recent time?
Nathan Clark (42:28):
No, I did have a body camera towards the end of
my tenure at the reservation.
Absolutely loved it, but I alsohated it.
I loved it because it bailed meout on a lot of complaints.
You know how people are,especially the drunks.
It cleared a lot of complaints.
They don't like it because wewere learning how to use them
(42:49):
and sometimes you forget to turnit off and you're having those
sidebars in the squad car andyou know words are being said
that probably shouldn't be said.
Yeah, I remember I was talkingto my buddy and we were just
throwing out f-bombs left orright and next thing you hear is
the, the buzzing going off, andwe look at each other and we're
like you didn't turn it off,did you?
Tyra Valeriano (43:09):
both of us didn't turn I've been through
that so many times yeah, um, butum, I absolutely loved them
just for that.
Nathan Clark (43:16):
Those reasons they they save your butt, and not
just your butt but the agency'sbutt and also the citizens.
You know it has its purpose.
It's just an additional tool.
I wouldn't say it's a save allbecause it's limited, just like
anything else, but for I guessyou could say, liability and
(43:38):
transparency, but also justkeeping people in line, it's a
great tool.
I think it's amazing.
My last agency we didn't havethem.
I wish we did, for variousreasons.
They won't get them for a whilethey are from.
What I was told is they arevery against them and I think I
(44:00):
know why.
I can't really say too muchright now, but I have a pretty
good reason why they don't wantthem.
Um, but they're going to haveto eventually get to them.
Tyra Valeriano (44:08):
Yeah, so do they use?
Do they use a recorder at least?
Nathan Clark (44:13):
Good old audio recorders.
Yes, I remember those batterieslast maybe a third of your
shift, even though you just gotthem out of the drawer.
Tyra Valeriano (44:23):
I remember those .
So tell me what you would sayis the highlight of your career.
What is something you put atthe top of your list that you
can recall and say that is oneof your proudest moments of your
career?
Nathan Clark (44:41):
I would say maybe two things.
One was well, maybe three.
So one was definitely at theuniversity level.
Being a newbie cop kind of sortof Universities have a policy.
I'm not going to say whichuniversity I worked for, but
there was a quiet policy abouthow to report crimes.
(45:01):
And I recall going through thedorm one night and just talking
to the people up front andthey're like, hey, we think a
crime occurred.
And I said, oh, I'll let youknow, tell me.
Well, we think a girl got raped.
So I investigated, essentiallyended up being a legit thing.
They weren't going to sayanything.
So I'm kind of happy about that.
(45:22):
Um and ended up being a goodcase.
Um, where she was scared to sayanything.
Um, initially, if you listen toit, if he just took it for face
value, it was questionable.
But the more I dug and actuallydelved into the questions, it
became a legit thing.
So I would say that would be agood one um.
But another one would be um,finding a runaway downtown
(45:46):
phoenix.
Um, actually there's two fordowntown phoenix but a runaway,
and just taking I spent about anhour and a half after chef's
talk with him and his familybecause he needed that.
He was a troubled kid and heappreciated it as well as his
parents.
And then, same thing is kind ofknowing your area.
We had a call of a female whohad overdosed.
(46:08):
Nobody knew where she was.
She was basically slowlypassing away because of the
overdose and the description shegave Phoenix police and our
agency.
Um, it could have been anywhere, but there was something very
specific she had said about abillboard and I knew exactly
where she was, so I was able totrack her down and get her, get
her saved immediately.
(46:30):
Um and then I would say thefinal one would be my last
agency was we got a call of afemale who was contemplating
suicide.
Um, she was home drinking.
I get there, have a niceconversation with her For about
an hour and a half.
She was adamant she was notgoing to kill herself, but I saw
enough in her eyes, enough inher demeanor that if we left she
(46:53):
was going to follow through,and I was able to talk her into
actually going to the hospitaland getting help.
And two weeks later she said,yeah, I was going to do it, had
you, if you left.
And she said thank you foractually being stubborn and
sticking with it and not lettingme do it.
Tyra Valeriano (47:10):
Those are great stories.
Thank you for sharing that.
What do you say is yourfavorite part about civilian
life?
Nathan Clark (47:20):
what do you say is your favorite part about
civilian life?
Ooh, civilian life.
I would probably say just notworrying about my kids being in
danger, because we hadtake-homes and I think a couple
of years ago when they weretalking about Antifa and all of
them going into neighborhoodsand all that.
I remember that night verydistinctly because my kids slept
(47:42):
upstairs with bats and baseballgloves and cleats and all these
things in the room because theywere scared that we were going
to be targeted.
So that was probably an eyeopener.
And being out of the job, I cansay that I'm a little bit happy
on that side because they don'thave to stress about that
anymore, you know.
Tyra Valeriano (48:02):
That's great.
Yeah, I remember when thathappened too, we had take-home
units, and when we talked abouthow it's just a in Spanish it's
chismosa Like it's just a bunchof people talking, right, just
rumor mill.
I was parking my unit in mygarage for a while because of
(48:22):
that, and I guess there weredispatchers that used to drive
by my house and they werewondering where I was at,
because they're just like hey,where's Tyra?
Her unit's not home, where isshe at?
Let's look for for her.
And I remember one of thedispatchers asking me hey, are
you out on duty because yourunit isn't home?
And I was just thinking likewhat the heck?
(48:44):
I can't even be safe for myfamily without people just being
nosy.
You know, that rumor mill it'snot just in the agency, it's in
dispatch too.
But no, I honestly do think,though, that that fear that we
have as parents or even, for,you know, our family in general,
it it kind of subsides when youget rid of that take-home unit
(49:08):
and you are able to be at homewith your family, and I don't
think it goes away for us.
I mean, you could disagree withme.
You know we're constantly onhigh alert for a while until
we're adjusted, but yeah, that'sdefinitely a relief.
There is one question that Iask all my guests, which maybe
you already know what thatquestion is, and I'm interested
(49:29):
to hear what this piece ofadvice would be, because you do
have a lot of experience.
What would be one piece ofadvice that you would give your
rookie self, based on everythingthat you know now?
Nathan Clark (49:43):
I would say probably the joking one would be
don't um basically don't playin the same playground that you
uh, you know um pooping, or youknow whatever.
Don't date amongst cops withinyou.
You know pooping, or you knowwhatever Don't date amongst cops
within your agency.
You know, that's probably oneof the biggest ones.
(50:04):
I never did, thank goodness,but I saw enough of it.
But the one thing that I wouldsay to my young self would be
don't take this job too serious.
Be serious, but don't take itserious, because you have a lot
more life ahead of you outsideof this job.
(50:25):
So have fun, Don't worry aboutthe little things, Worry about
the things that matter.
And then you know, let Godguide you the rest of the way.
Tyra Valeriano (50:38):
I love that and I think that is really good
advice.
So if there's any rookies outthere that can benefit from that
, I think that's great advice.
We are coming to an end of thepodcast for today.
Is there any contactinformation that you can share
with the listeners if they wannareach out to you?
Nathan Clark (50:54):
Sure, I can get ahold of me on my email nclark6
at hotmailcom.
N-c-l-a-r-k.
Number six at Hotmail.
That's part of the easiest way,because I pay more attention to
that than anything.
Tyra Valeriano (51:08):
Okay, is there anything else that you want to
add?
Nathan Clark (51:11):
No, I just want to say thank you for this
opportunity.
It was being, you know, firsttime.
It was amazing.
So, you know, maybe we can dothis again down the road,
because there's tons of topics,so I'm sure we can talk about um
, I used to work in dispatch too, so that's, that's all.
Tyra Valeriano (51:24):
Oh, oh see, I just I just stirred the pot.
Yeah, okay, no, yeah, actually,I think that would be a great
idea.
I appreciate your time.
Um, I think it would be reallygreat if we got on some topics
that we haven't discussed,because there are some things
that we talked about prior tothe podcast that I think would
(51:45):
be beneficial to other officershearing and maybe having some
perspective or hearing thatsomebody else can agree with
what they might be feeling orseeing in their career.
So I definitely think we willplan for a future episode and we
will talk about that a littlemore after we are done To the
listeners.
(52:05):
Thank you guys for tuning in andfor your continuous support.
If you're interested inbecoming a guest, please go to
my link on Instagram.
My Instagram handle is tvalunderscore official, or you can
go to my website,shieldofdutycom, and find the
schedule link on there.
Everyone be safe and I will seeyou on the next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
(52:28):
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're interested injoining an episode.
I'd love for you to be a partof the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
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