December 9, 2024 • 41 mins
Join us as Tyra Valeriano sits down with Jeff Kunze, a dedicated volunteer police chaplain from Kansas City, to explore how he's reshaping mental health support in law enforcement. Jeff shares his incredible journey, from being a pastor to becoming a trusted ally for officers, offering a safe space where they can open up without fear of judgment. Together, they discuss how the stigma surrounding mental health is gradually changing.
Jeff talks about the challenges and triumphs of establishing a police chaplaincy program, emphasizing the importance of inclusivity and diversity by involving chaplains from different faiths. He also reflects on walking the fine line between offering spiritual care and respecting personal boundaries, highlighting how essential leadership support is in making these initiatives thrive.
This conversation goes beyond the surface, shedding light on the emotional toll of law enforcement work and the role chaplains play during some of the most critical moments in officers' lives. Jeff shares powerful stories of resilience, trauma, and healing, including the transformative impact of programs like the War Horse initiative. He also opens up about his own journey with therapy, finding strength in humor, and the importance of self-care for those who provide care to others.
You can contact Jeff Kunze on LinkedIn by searching the name Jeffrey Kunze.
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Episode Transcript
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Tyra Valeriano (00:01):
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
aspects of life behind the badge.
Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Hey everyone, thank you fortuning into Chapter Blue.
(00:42):
We have made it to our fourthepisode and the support from
friends, family, social mediaand my guests has been extremely
motivating.
I got a couple of messages thatshared with me what they'd like
to see more of moving forwardbased on recommendations and
value received from my guests.
So I will be implementing thesesuggestions, moving forward.
For those listeners out therewho are able to grab bits and
(01:04):
pieces of each episode that doesapply to them.
So thank you, guys, for thefeedback.
It is appreciated and wellreceived.
Now for today's episode.
I will be speaking with JeffreyKunze, but we can call him Jeff
.
He is currently in the KansasCity area and is a chaplain for
law enforcement.
Even though Jeff is not servingas a first responder, he
(01:24):
volunteers his time to establishrapport with officers in his
area in a very unique way thatcreates a relationship with a
resource that most officers haveone never experienced, or two
they skip out on becausechaplains only come around for a
debrief, which I will saythat's probably more of my
experience.
(01:45):
But before I take any more timeaway from him, hi, jeff, thanks
for joining me today all theway from Kansas City.
Can you tell our listeners alittle more about your
background and what yourinvolvement in law enforcement
is?
Jeff Kunze (01:58):
Yes, thanks for having me.
I've been in ministry for about33 years and through that
entire time I have worked withor around law enforcement.
It's just something that's kindof always come up in terms of
getting to know officers andtheir families and serving them,
and I'm presently serving acongregation in the Kansas City
(02:19):
area.
My police chaplaincy career onan official capacity took place
in the St Louis area, and thatwas from 2002 to 2008.
And then I took a call to servea congregation here in the
Kansas City area.
But word gets out, you've gotsomeone who has worked with law
(02:40):
enforcement law enforcement.
So I have worked with agenciesthat I think, maybe more on an
unofficial capacity, withofficers reaching out to me to
meet with them and to do what Ican to help them.
There's an agency right nowthat's recruiting me to be part
of their chaplaincy, and for me,my experience has been as a
volunteer chaplain.
So there are some chaplainsthat are commissioned police
(03:04):
officers that get paid by thecity or the county, and so my
experience has always been as avolunteer.
Tyra Valeriano (03:10):
Okay, I want to just jump right into it.
Just because of your background, from your perspective, why is
mental health such a criticalissue for law enforcement today?
Jeff Kunze (03:21):
I think it always has been an issue.
I just think it's betteraddressed right now.
The stigma that goes with I'vegot issues or I've got a problem
where I need to talk to someoneis less, I think, for a while
because I'm kind of old for awhile, if you mentioned that
you're struggling mentally oremotionally, someone might think
(03:41):
that their job's on the line.
Um, someone might think thattheir job's on the line and so
to hold that in.
And you know, with policeofficers it's all about control
for safety's sake, to controltheir environment, control the
situation, um, and I think someof that works its way into
control your emotions, controlhow that particular scene or
incident has affected you and II believe that now, more
(04:05):
recently, the door's opening upto you can let go of some of
that control and talk about whatyou've experienced.
And it's okay to be human.
I've got plenty of stories ofworking with officers that you
have to break down that barrierand say let's talk.
And as a police chaplain, Ifound myself to be in a unique
(04:28):
position.
One of many resources that theofficer has you have peer
support.
You've got the therapist orcounselor that's provided by the
agency.
You've got their supervisor.
A chaplain can play a uniquerole because we're a safe place.
I'm not your supervisor.
A chaplain can play a uniquerole because we're a safe place.
I'm not your supervisor, I'mnot your shrink, so you can say
whatever you want to me.
As long as you don't want tohurt yourself or somebody else,
(04:52):
it stays with me.
Tyra Valeriano (04:54):
So what's a good way for you to approach
officers who are reluctant totalk about the struggles that
they're having?
Because, obviously, the firststep is saying, hey, I want to
talk to you and yes, even thoughyou're not their shrink, how is
it that you're able to get themto open up and talk about the
struggles that they're having?
Jeff Kunze (05:14):
It begins with developing relationships and I
know chaplains have their ownstereotype at least chaplains do
the agency that I served in theSt Louis area.
When I was being introduced toone of the roll call shifts, I
remember one officer saying tome well, I hope I never have to
see you.
(05:34):
I'm like what, what do you mean?
And so my first thing is I wantto get in that guy's car and
get to know him.
Right things.
I want to get in that guy's carand get to know him.
Where I believe this is just myopinion where I think some
chaplains get into trouble isthey feel that they're on a
mission to share their faithwith that officer because they
are, by definition, clergy.
(05:55):
If that's your first priority,you're probably going to fail.
If your first priority is justto get to know that person, ask
them questions why did you gointo law enforcement?
Get to know.
You know as much as they'rewilling to share and don't ask
stupid questions about hey, haveyou ever seen something really
bad?
Or you know.
And it's breaking down some ofthose stereotypes of a police
(06:17):
chaplain that I had to do tostart with and to let them know
I'm not a cop wannabe.
I'm not going into this becauseI want to be around guns and
badges and all that's so cool.
I'm in here because I genuinelycare about what you do.
I have a good understanding ofwhat you do, but I need to
understand the culture first andbe accepted into that culture.
That means I'm not going tobring judgments.
(06:38):
As a police chaplain, I servedmany who were claimed to be
agnostic or atheist, but I caredfor them the same I did with
all the others.
I want to get to know you as ahuman being, and so that
relationship has to be builtwith integrity.
Then I think, the door opens.
Tyra Valeriano (07:00):
And that's really important to know, and
that's really important to know.
So, for those of the officersthat are listening today, what
can you define for them thatmakes your role different than a
shrink or a counselor?
What do you do that makes yourposition?
Jeff Kunze (07:18):
different than that.
Yeah, I mean because and Idon't know what it's like in the
agencies for the officers whoare listening here I mean if
there are some supervisors whoare listening, who have under
their supervision the chaplains.
God bless you, thank you,continue to support them.
Chaplains need training to whatto say, what not to say, how to
be present, and it's reallygoing to come down to trust.
(07:41):
I think police departments arethe greatest gossip machines on
the planet and I mean they beatold ladies who are quilting in a
church basement.
I mean they are great gossipmachines and I mean that it can
be in a very good way.
And if you are serving anofficer and develop some trust
(08:05):
with that officer and he or shetells another officer, hey, you
can go to this chaplain, youknow, you can trust them.
That goes a long way.
You burn the bridge with oneand word's going to get out.
This guy just wants to shoveJesus down your throat.
And so I think for the officer,I think it goes both ways the
(08:26):
police officer can alsoencourage the chaplain and, I
guess, be able to say I respectwhat you're doing, thank you for
being here.
I think that role of thechaplain needs to be defined by
the department, by the agency,by the department, by the agency
and one of the agencies I'mworking with now.
(08:47):
They're more reactivechaplaincies chaplains rather
than proactive, and reactive isa whole different world.
I don't expect relationships tobuild with that because all
you're doing is reacting to.
The department says, hey, weneed a chaplain on scene or we
need the chaplain for somepublic event marriage, prayer,
breakfast, breakfast, whateverjust to be out in front of the
people.
(09:07):
Oh, there might be a funeral orsomething, because the family's
got a grandfather and theydon't have a church home or
something like that.
Call the chaplain when you needthem.
Whereas my approach is to beproactive and to get in there
and remind the officers I wasworking with that I am a safe
place, I will keep thingsconfidential and you can share
(09:27):
whatever you want your greatestfears or your successes or
whatever.
Every chaplain will be tested,tested with that confidence, but
even more tested the fact thatwe're clergy.
I get more cussing around methan probably the other officers
.
You know it.
Just, you know I had a littlegoatee once and and they're like
(09:50):
, hey, jump and shave that shitoff your face, just waiting to
see.
You know, get a ride on me.
Like what are you going to say?
Oh, you said a bad word.
I'm like, yeah, so I?
I think it requires theboundaries to be articulated,
(10:23):
you know, and not such in aformal way, but I mean because a
to see you said to me this iswhat I need to do.
I want you to see me, I wantyou to be able to reach out to
me if there's some stuff goingdown, if your world is spinning
out of control.
Tyra Valeriano (10:39):
You know, I want to say in my career I vaguely
remember having any kind ofcontact with the chaplain.
I want to say there was twocritical incidents that the
department or the agencyexperienced where we did have
the chaplain come in to do adebrief with the officers and I
want to say that's the only timethat I ever really saw the
(11:01):
chaplain on the officer side,the law enforcement side.
So I want to get into theleadership role of law
enforcement and how that canbenefit you in connecting with
police officers.
Do you feel that it is theleaders or the sergeants that
need to bring you in and informtheir officers about what it is
(11:22):
that you're providing for themas a resource?
Because I can tell you, in theacademy I don't recall ever
really having the discussion ofthe chaplain being something
that is a resource for policeofficers.
Jeff Kunze (11:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it has to start withthe leadership.
Yeah, and the agency that Iserved in the St Louis area.
I was invited in by the chiefof police.
They were wanting to buildtheir chaplain corps, chaplain
unit, and I had not been achaplain before, I'd worked with
, met with police officers as apastor and the relationship's
(11:59):
kind of already establishedthere by that title, but it was
new in the law enforcement arenaand so now if the police chief
isn't liked by a lot of patrol,then you know, then you've got
some bridge building to to dothere.
But if the chief is wellrespected and liked and he
brings in this chaplain, thenyou get to start on a pretty
(12:21):
good foot now.
Uh, there was a lieutenant thatwas our supervisor.
You get to start on a prettygood foot.
Now, there was a lieutenantthat was our supervisor.
It was me and three otherchaplains and it took their
support, not just in helping getthe word out on what our
chaplains are here to do, butour budget, our training, our
equipment.
You know we ask for vestsbecause we're doing ride-alongs
(12:43):
we are sitting shotgun with.
We get trained on the car.
We get, uh, I would, I would go.
Uh, they invite me to the range, which I loved, you know, to
learn to shoot.
I think I was asked many timesfor new officers Um, what are
(13:03):
you going to do if things gosideways and you know I'm like,
well, I'll you know're asking me.
Tyra Valeriano (13:06):
Am I going to pray or shoot, right, you know,
maybe both.
Jeff Kunze (13:09):
Yeah, I mean we'll start with.
You know, if you're threatenedor something's bad, I can help
eliminate the threat.
Yeah, they're going down.
No, you're asking what's mycore beliefs on capital
punishment.
It would be horriblyunfortunate, but I'm not going
to sit there and pray.
It would be horriblyunfortunate, but I'm not going
to sit there and pray, althoughthere was many times afterwards
(13:35):
that there were some prayers,thinking good Lord, I am a
volunteer and we almost died,but the supervision, or the
higher-ups, that is so important.
I helped build a chaplaincy inthe Kansas City area with a
smaller department and my advicethere was you need to invite
these pastors in who first showna um a desire to do this.
We were always leery of thosepastors that knocked on our door
and said we want to be a policechap.
Why do you want to be one?
(13:56):
You know, I think it's easierto recruit them and say will you
use your gifts and skills inthis culture and are you willing
to learn and understand theculture?
Tyra Valeriano (14:09):
I mean, that's a great question to be asking.
Why are you here, especially ifyou're not familiar with, you
know, the law enforcement worldand what they actually deal with
and you're just coming in.
Hey, I want to do this.
That's a great question to bewondering.
Why are you knocking on ourdoor?
What's making you want to behere?
Jeff Kunze (14:28):
Well, and maybe more has to be said.
In the academy or policedepartments, agencies, sheriff's
offices, I mean to be moreproactive in building a chaplain
corps or unit within the agencyIf he gets bogged down in
separation of church and state.
No, you're not asking them tocome and proselytize or to try
(14:50):
to get them, to recruit them totheir church or to their faith.
We had in my chaplain unit, wehad a rabbi that we could go to
for the officers of Jewish faith, for the officers of Jewish
faith, but we didn't have onethat committed to being in our
chaplain corps, but we had aCatholic priest and we just had
other Christian ministers.
(15:11):
But my training there was ifI'm in the field and I'm working
with a grieving family, helpingwith the death notification,
for instance, I'm not to impressmy faith upon them, but if they
ask me to pray with them, Iwould let them know I'm
Christian and so I'm going tohave a Christian prayer.
Are you okay with that?
(15:31):
And if they would say no, we'reMuslim, or we're okay with them
, see if I can find an imam, seeif I can help you find someone.
Right now I'm here to care foryou and my role there was the
officer needed me to help withthe scene.
That's full of grief, butreally my job is to help that
officer out so they can do thebest of what they do, right?
(15:54):
That means everybody in theroom is going batshit crazy and
if I can help calm that scenedown, then I would do that as a
chaplain until they could removethe body or do whatever, um,
but then ultimately they sitdown with that officer later and
say are you doing?
Okay, you know if it's a child,if it's whatever it might be,
and sat in quite a few debriefstoo with the use of deadly force
(16:14):
.
I was thankful that my agencywould say, like you've had in
your experience, they wouldbring a chaplain in and help do
that debrief.
And that would happen initially, right?
I mean, I was there right afterthe officer.
The detectives are taking hisweapon and everything.
It's an investigation, it's ahomicide.
(16:34):
And after he was interviewed,um, the captain said, all right,
now you're gonna have him, andso I'd sit down with them and
and, and the officer knew mealready because I'd already been
in his car.
You know, I wasn't, I wasn'tsome strange person that just
showed up, because I I would bearound the station, you know, if
(16:55):
there's police chaplainslistening to this, be present.
So many officers would saybefore.
We never saw our chaplain,unless he or she was needed
right be present, you know, walkaround and smack talk with them
.
I don't know.
You know you're making it whenthey start teasing you.
Right, that's the truth, likethey're doing everybody else
(17:15):
that is the truth.
Tyra Valeriano (17:17):
I want to ask you something.
I find it really interestinghow different your role is in a
police agency compared to whatI've experienced during my
career.
What is a normal day for youlike when you are at the
department, and what are youdoing with the police officers?
How are you engaging yourselfwith them so that, when that day
(17:39):
comes and they do need you,they're familiar?
Because I can tell you, there'sprobably one major incident
that I recall and I wouldn'thave felt comfortable talking to
the chaplain, and it's notbecause he's a stranger and I'm
concerned about that, but it'sjust.
Once again, it goes back tothat stigma.
We don't want to talk aboutthose things, especially with
(18:00):
people we don't know, and exposeourselves to someone who's
saying, hey, I'm here for you,this is what I do, and you don't
know anything about them.
So what is a normal day for youlike when you're there at the
agency or the department?
Jeff Kunze (18:14):
Because mine has always been volunteer.
I'm not quitting my day job andso I would tell my day job I
need to block this time.
Now you have the on call, whereyou can't schedule major
incidences right, they justhappen.
So it could be the middle ofthe night, whatever.
But just on a, on arelationship building, um, I
(18:34):
would try to be there for awhole shift.
Get there, um, we called itmuster but a roll call and then
I would talk with the supervisorof that shift and say you know,
is there someone that you wantme to get into the car with?
If I'm not doing a ride along,then it is just walking around
the station because you've gotsupport staff, you've got your
detectives, investigators are upthere, you know, at their seats
(18:57):
, and and then you got thecommand staff and to be able to
go talk with them.
And how are they doing?
So it wasn't just.
I think there's patrol chaplainsand I was in a meeting not long
ago.
They were trying to define apatrol chaplain versus an
administrative chaplain.
I don't think you should makethat a difference, that you're
just a patrol, you're justadministrative.
I think you know you're thereto care for them.
(19:20):
The word spiritual might scaresome people, but what makes it
different is if they go see theshrink they may not know the
shrink, but the shrink's doingtheir job.
They want to make sure thatyou're okay.
Men, slow to return to work.
The supervisor's doing theirjob, not saying they don't care
for you as a human being, but,um, the chaplain brings a little
(19:40):
different level of care carefor you as a human being, who
you are, as a person, and again,not there to try to impose
spiritual beliefs or faith, butbe willing to share if they're
asking questions on that or beable to find the right resource
for them.
So a typical day, if it's ashift, I try to do the whole
(20:02):
shift.
So midnights killed me becausethose that are doing mids are
used to it, right I?
Tyra Valeriano (20:08):
work during the day.
Jeff Kunze (20:09):
Now I'm showing up and I'm going to get in your car
around nine, three, 10 o'clockor you know you're going to drop
me off at 6am, but some ofthose shifts were great because
there's not a lot of stuff goingon and you can just talk.
Tyra Valeriano (20:24):
Out of those conversations that you had with
police officers, I'm curious,without, of course, being
specific about any situation wasa lot of their struggles based
on traumatic experiences thatthey had at work or, you know,
is it a wide variety of factorsthat are outside of work and
home life and financials, andall of that, what is a common
(20:47):
reoccurrence that you've seenwithin the field since you've
been doing this?
Jeff Kunze (20:53):
Most of what I dealt with was incidences that
happened on the job, and then wecould talk later about how that
was affecting a relationship oreven how they felt about
themselves.
And just if you will, just oneone quick thing.
I worked with a police officer.
Um, she worked a fatality.
It was a, um, a partialejection, without getting too
(21:15):
graphic.
But hey, officers are listeningto this.
Um, the body's twisted outsideof the driver's side and so the
person's alive.
But as soon as you move thatbody, it's I think I've heard it
say like a subway accident too.
As soon as you move that body,the blood's going to flow and
they'll die.
This was a teenager who had hislicense for 10 days.
(21:36):
She was on scene, she waschecking his pulse, they moved
the body.
He dies.
I was not part of the deathnotification, but she goes.
She has to knock on the door ofhis mom and say that your son
has died in a car accident.
And then she asked the questionthe mom did are you a mom?
And she goes yes, I am, shegoes.
(21:58):
Well, I feel.
So I'm so glad that another momwas holding my son's hand when
he died.
Now, that messed her up.
She had worked so manyfatalities.
So I get a phone call or a textor an email saying can you meet
with such and such officer?
I'm like, yeah, and she's likeI am having nightmares.
I am, I don't know that I'mcrying.
(22:22):
My boyfriend said talk to thechaplain.
So, damn it, I got to talk toyou.
I'm like, well, let's talkabout this.
You're suffering what's calledpost-traumatic stress disorder,
because it's been longer than 30days, so let's walk through
this.
Now.
I'm not a counselor, I'm not atherapist.
I mean, I've recommended EMDRand other techniques that really
(22:44):
help officers.
But my job there was to let herknow she wasn't going crazy.
You're a human being and youbecame a mom at that death
notification, not just anofficer, right, and you got to
grieve that.
And so we walked through thewhole investigation.
She talked it through and inthis case she didn't need
(23:06):
additional therapy.
It just needed to get out andunderstand why she was feeling
the way she was feeling.
Her boyfriend said thank you,because she thought her world
was.
Why is this one bothering me somuch?
Now, from my side of things, Iended up doing the funeral
because this young man was amember of the congregation I was
(23:28):
serving, so that kind of madeit you know great from my end,
but at any rate that would be anexample of yeah, you're having
a problem, let's talk it through.
I didn't know her, her, thatwell.
I've been in her car a fewtimes.
Um, it was out of reluctancethat they, you know, or she told
(23:50):
her boyfriend I'll go talk tothe chaplain, so you don't want
to lose her job, talk to ashrink and um, so, anyway,
that's.
I don't know if that helpsanswer the question, but that's
one of the work-relatedinstances that I feel I was able
to help with.
She took a risk to trust me andof course, she could.
Tyra Valeriano (24:15):
Would you say that your role?
I mean, like I said, I thinkit's pretty amazing what you do,
because this is not theexperience I had in my career
with a chaplain and even though,if I think back about the type
of people I worked with, I'm notsure that they would be open to
the idea.
But if, let's say, it's out ofyour scope at this point and
(24:40):
you're talking to them and yourealize, hey, this might be a
little bit more than what I cando for you, do you give them the
resources?
Are you outsourcing them towhere they need to go to get the
help that they need?
Jeff Kunze (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely To get a good trauma therapist and
I can help them through somecritical incident stress
management, but as a chaplain.
But you know, to get a trustedresource maybe it's through the
department.
And what I would always saywhich I've done actually and
doing right now is that I'llwalk with you through that, so
(25:14):
I'm not handing you off, letsomeone else deal with it.
Let's get together for a cup ofcoffee and tell me how did that
session go and was it helpful?
You can fire a therapist andget a different one.
So then that you know my roletakes a little different.
You know they can talk aboutwhat they're learning about
(25:35):
themselves and so forth.
And then you know and roletakes a little different.
You know they can talk aboutwhat they're learning about
themselves and so forth.
And then you know and I canlisten, I have enough experience
to know some of the terminology.
I said EMDR before.
So when it's stuck in a certainplace, right, and that type of
technique is is amazing, and andso to see them have success
(25:57):
with that, and then come backand talk.
I'm working with a actually hejust retired with severe ptsd,
uh, major crimes unit, a lot ofdeath, a lot of autopsies, like
400 autopsies in 400 on topseason, three, five years.
I don't know Um and he wasgoing on some retreats and
(26:21):
things too for officers forhealing and um.
So just to sit down with somecoffee and hear about how it was
going for him, you know it was.
It was really special Um andit's interesting, in his
retirement, which just tookplace about three weeks ago, he
talked about um wellness, mentalhealth for police officers
(26:42):
because he was going for helpand it works.
And they have the war horse umministry.
I don't know if it's called aministry, but it's war horse in
the Kansas city area.
So horses that are horses, havehealing powers.
So his goal was to help raisethat awareness and I want to be
(27:04):
able to say I know here's thedanger of you having a pastor on
a podcast.
We will not shut up.
Tyra Valeriano (27:10):
Oh no.
I'm very drawn into this.
In fact, you've alreadymentioned something that there's
certain things you've talkedabout that trigger memories for
me in my career.
Just hearing you talk about it,I'm thinking, you know, maybe I
haven't dealt with some of thestuff that you know I've gone
through, and this is just arealization for a lot of people
who are probably listening.
I'm sure you've said somethingthat's resonated with them.
(27:33):
And this is the indicator that,hey, there is stuff that you
probably haven't dealt with.
And this is why I'm doing thispodcast, because it's so
important to put it out thereand make people aware that, hey,
we might be holding it in andthinking we're good, but maybe
we're not.
And this is the opportunitythat you have to say, hey, I
(27:53):
need to work on it, I need towork on myself.
Jeff Kunze (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, the brain stores everything and so
it's because of this officerthat I was working with I'm
seeing a trauma therapist.
In fact I have a sessiontomorrow afternoon, and here's
where that went.
I'm listening to his war storywe're swapping war stories and
from a chaplain's side of things, you know I mean I was still on
(28:18):
scene, you know bad stuff andwhatever and of course, him
being a police officer, majorcrimes.
Not that we're trying to one-upeach other, but it dawned on me
one time in our visits what ifhe turns the question around to
me and says, chaplain, what areyou doing for you?
Because there's a lot ofsecondary trauma, there's a lot
(28:40):
that I've absorbed over 30 years, walking with people in the
darkest places, the darkest ofmoments.
Yes, there's joys and stuff too.
So when I went to go see mytrauma therapist, I found a
really good one.
She said why?
Now I'm like that's a greatquestion.
Because I said I'm really goodat compartmentalizing things,
(29:00):
but all those compartments arefull, so I need you to empty a
few of them for me.
Okay, cause I started gettingsome triggers from my own
experience and working withtrauma.
So I've recommended to so manyofficers, so I've recommended to
so many officers the techniquesthat are out there.
So for the first time in mylife she took me through EMDR.
(29:21):
I'm not here to promote that,but it is a technique that
actually works.
It's amazing.
The brain feels like it's justrun a triathlon.
But I thought too I had dealtwith this particular thing many
years ago or that year, and itturns out I didn't, and so I
(29:41):
feel I've got even moreintegrity now that I've gone to
talk with someone and get somehelp, because I thought to
myself as a chaplain I'm notopposing that, I'm stronger than
you, the officer.
The chaplain system that's setup in the Kansas City area here
(30:02):
now is much different than itwas in the St Louis area where I
served before, and I wish wewould have the resources for
chaplains back in the St Louisarea, like there are where I'm
at now.
So I know a few chaplains whereI'm at now.
So I know a few chaplains andif the situation, if we've dealt
with a situation, it's likeprotocol to call one another,
call out, call another chaplainand say, hey, I just went
(30:24):
through this.
So it's kind of its own supportsystem within.
I mean, who's supporting thosesupport people?
Tyra Valeriano (30:31):
who's?
Jeff Kunze (30:32):
caring for the caregivers and and that's if
you're going to be a chaplain inthis area, that's kind of a
given you need to make sureyou're not just
compartmentalizing these thingslike I was doing.
Make sure you're not just goinghey, I'll just work through it
and I want to be there for them.
Who cares about me, and that'snot a good place to be.
(30:54):
And even though it took a longtime in my ministry and career
to recognize that that's not agood place to be, and even
though it took a long time in mymy ministry and career to
recognize that, it's not toolate.
And if you have some officerslistening now going yeah, I've
been doing this for 20 years, 25years, I know what I'm doing.
No, it doesn't mean that you'vebeen doing it wrong.
You know you've servedadmirably with great sacrifice
and experienced things that therest of the world will never
(31:16):
experience.
It's okay to let someone helpyou process those things.
Tyra Valeriano (31:21):
All right.
Jeff Kunze (31:22):
I'm kind of curious.
Tyra Valeriano (31:24):
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
I want to ask you a quickquestion just based off of what
you said, because you areexperiencing the same things
that the police officers are outin the field.
You're in the car with them,you're able to joke with them,
understand their humor, you'rekind of just down, even with
them, on their level, thatthey're experiencing at that
time.
I know this might seem like anodd question, but I'm genuinely
(31:46):
curious.
Do you have that dark sense ofhumor that they have and you're
able to relate, or is that justsomething that's off the table
because you are a chaplain late?
Jeff Kunze (31:56):
or is that just something that's off the table
because you are a chaplain?
Oh, if you don't have thatsense of humor, oh yeah, the,
the, the dark sense of humor Ican, I can bring it up with the
rest of them.
Um, uh, absolutely We've, andit's funny because there's, um,
there's so many people that therest of the world would go oh,
you can't joke about that,that's disrespectful.
(32:16):
You're not.
It's not disrespectful, it'sjust seeing that humor in the
most bizarre and horrible youknow that situations or or
whatever.
So, yes, um, yeah, I, probablya clergy, might have the worst
sense of humor than other.
Okay, I didn't mean to cut youoff.
(32:42):
I was just, I was curious and Ididn't want to forget to ask you
.
Yeah, no, absolutely In fact,if you're an officer and your
chaplain's in the car with youand he or she doesn't see kind
of the dark humor and things,then you can drop them off at
the local gas station.
They can get a ride home.
Tyra Valeriano (32:59):
So what is one thing that you would want to
tell officers based on whatyou've experienced over the time
that you've been working at thedepartment?
What is one thing or one pieceof advice you would want to give
them from what you've seen ordealt with?
Jeff Kunze (33:15):
Yeah, if they don't have a chaplain program in the
agency, I would encourage that.
I would ask them to go to theirsupervisors and say this is the
value of it and it's not aboutsome people have a very horrible
taste in their mouth for thechurch and for religion, jesus
(33:37):
or whoever.
It's not about that.
It can become that if that'swhere the officer wants to go
and I've shared my faith manytimes but it's about caring for
the officers on a human level,as human beings, and being
present.
So I would encourage them, ifthey don't have a chaplaincy
program, to get those that arecertified or a member of the
(34:01):
International Conference ofPolice Chaplains, icpc.
Make sure that you get a goodchaplain program going.
And what's great is there'sgreat networking, because that
agency might say hey, how didyou guys get your chaplains
together?
And then the hard work happensand then they have to go recruit
(34:22):
pastors who will give of theirtime because this is volunteer.
Most places are.
And hopefully that sayssomething to the agency too that
we're here because we care, notbecause we're here to make
money.
I was paid $1 a year from theSt Louis area agency for legal
purposes so that I could be onthe insurance program if
(34:43):
something happened in the carand I got injured.
So when I left that agency Ithink I was owed like $3.
It was three years I didn't geta dollar.
Tyra Valeriano (34:52):
Well, I mean the taxes on that.
You probably wouldn't have anymoney left anyway.
Just buy me a dollar.
Well, I mean the taxes on that.
Jeff Kunze (34:57):
You probably wouldn't have any money left
anyway, so just buy me aStarbucks.
Tyra Valeriano (35:01):
I don't even think the $3 would cover a
Starbucks.
Jeff Kunze (35:03):
No, you're right.
Tyra Valeriano (35:06):
Yes, okay, so I I know that you said this is a
volunteer job.
One thing that I'm working onis a course for first responders
to create a wellness program attheir agency, and what is
really part of that course isgoing to be I want to call it a
catalog of some sort ofresources that they have.
(35:29):
Now, being that you work in aspecific area, are you
accessible to other officers inother areas, or are you just
dedicated to the area thatyou're in and that's the only
place that you can really justbe involved with officers?
Jeff Kunze (35:46):
No, I've opened myself up, especially the men
and women that I served in theSt Louis area.
I'm still in touch with some ofthem.
Um, the last thing that I hadthere was a line of duty death
funeral that I had to do, andthen I left the area, and so I'm
even in touch with his wifestill, and how things are going
(36:06):
with their kids and stuff.
So those relationships whenthey're built, some friendships
are built into and um, but thenI've had others contact me from
from elsewhere too, and, um, youknow I want to help where I can
.
I don't pretend to have all theanswers.
There's some really goodchaplains out there that, um,
some that even have moretraining than me, um, uh, who
(36:28):
have the ability to um, eitherget get paid in such a way that
they can spend more time withthe agency, or retired and um,
so I've always wanted to makemyself available.
I think if, if you are, ifyou've experienced something
that's successful and and made adifference in someone's life,
(36:48):
um, I think you owe it to paythat forward.
That's over you saying, but Ithink you owe that to teach and
to to share.
That here's what worked where Iwas at.
It doesn't mean it will workeverywhere, but so when I was
asked to help set up a police, achaplain thing in this area, I
just took my experience and saidhere's what I think you should
(37:09):
do to have a successful program.
Tyra Valeriano (37:13):
Right and what before?
We're running out of time, butI wanted to ask you what kind of
training do you go through withthe agency?
What kind of training do theyput you through?
I know you mentioned that yougot to go to the range and what
is some of the training thatthey have you guys do?
Jeff Kunze (37:35):
back then was through the International
Conference of Police Chaplains,and then they would have their
seminars and courses that youcan take and to go there and
like a convention it is aconvention if you will and sign
up for certain things and getthe training that you need there
.
Otherwise, my training would bethrough my profession with
(37:58):
pastoral care and so forth.
But my next step would be to Idon't have my board-certified
chaplaincy, which is what youwould need in a hospital setting
.
There might be some agenciesthat would require that.
I would think that you at leastneed to have a congregation or
(38:19):
you're a member of the clergy tobe a chaplain, you know.
So I think that qualificationshould be a given and I think
any additional training thatthey can do, and so the
department I was with would payfor us to go for some course
training and Okay.
And um certification.
Tyra Valeriano (38:41):
Okay, well, I know we are coming close to an
end and I do normally askeverybody a question, uh, that I
ask all of my guests, but itdoesn't actually apply to you.
So I'm actually just going toask you if there's anything that
you want to share with thelisteners and if there's
something specific you want themto know.
Jeff Kunze (39:00):
You know.
I would just reiterate ifyou've got a chaplain in your
agency, to get to know thatchaplain, and if that chaplain
is not making themselvesavailable, then talk to the
supervisors to say let's rethinkwhat the role of chaplains can
do for the well-being of theofficers and their families.
Peer support counselors putchaplains in there too, and so I
(39:26):
would say, be an advocate foryour agency too, and if you've
got a good chaplaincy program,share it with surrounding
agencies that this is what we'redoing and and that makes a big
impact on the community.
Tyra Valeriano (39:40):
Thank you for that.
If there's any questions thatthe listeners have that they
want to ask you, is there a waythat they can contact you?
Jeff Kunze (39:47):
I think through my LinkedIn profile would be.
I don't know how you share thaton a podcast.
Tyra Valeriano (39:53):
Just maybe your name or how you have your name
listed on there.
Jeff Kunze (39:58):
Yeah, so I mean it's , it's jeff kunze and okay, I
believe that, though I believethat's all it is on on the
willington profile there, right,and jeffrey kunze.
Sorry, jeffrey is what.
I'm in trouble, but yeah,j-e-f-f-r-e-y kunze, k-u-n-z-e
and I should say olat Kansas,that's a suburb of Kansas City.
Tyra Valeriano (40:18):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, jeff.
I appreciate your time.
I really am excited that we hadthis conversation today,
because not only was this verydifferent than what I have
interviewed already, but thisshows a different perspective to
the whole purpose of why Istarted this podcast, and it was
actually an eye opener for meas well.
So I appreciate your time.
(40:40):
Thank you for all of yourexpertise and your knowledge and
for sharing that with us, forthose of you listening.
Thank you for tuning in, besafe and we'll see you on the
next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
(41:00):
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
Welcome to Chapter Blue, the podcast where
we discuss the world of lawenforcement through an honest
conversation on tough orcontroversial topics, real
stories, perspectives andexperience from officers all
around the world.
Whether you're here forinsights on mental health,
self-care, work-life balance,getting into law enforcement,
getting out of law enforcement,or just trying to learn about
(00:21):
personal and professionalchallenges officers face every
day, you've come to the rightplace.
I'm your host, tyra Valeriano,and whether I'm going solo or
speaking with a guest, eachepisode will discuss different
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Let's turn the page and stepinto Chapter Blue.
Hey everyone, thank you fortuning into Chapter Blue.
(00:42):
We have made it to our fourthepisode and the support from
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I got a couple of messages thatshared with me what they'd like
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So I will be implementing thesesuggestions, moving forward.
For those listeners out therewho are able to grab bits and
(01:04):
pieces of each episode that doesapply to them.
So thank you, guys, for thefeedback.
It is appreciated and wellreceived.
Now for today's episode.
I will be speaking with JeffreyKunze, but we can call him Jeff
.
He is currently in the KansasCity area and is a chaplain for
law enforcement.
Even though Jeff is not servingas a first responder, he
(01:24):
volunteers his time to establishrapport with officers in his
area in a very unique way thatcreates a relationship with a
resource that most officers haveone never experienced, or two
they skip out on becausechaplains only come around for a
debrief, which I will saythat's probably more of my
experience.
(01:45):
But before I take any more timeaway from him, hi, jeff, thanks
for joining me today all theway from Kansas City.
Can you tell our listeners alittle more about your
background and what yourinvolvement in law enforcement
is?
Jeff Kunze (01:58):
Yes, thanks for having me.
I've been in ministry for about33 years and through that
entire time I have worked withor around law enforcement.
It's just something that's kindof always come up in terms of
getting to know officers andtheir families and serving them,
and I'm presently serving acongregation in the Kansas City
(02:19):
area.
My police chaplaincy career onan official capacity took place
in the St Louis area, and thatwas from 2002 to 2008.
And then I took a call to servea congregation here in the
Kansas City area.
But word gets out, you've gotsomeone who has worked with law
(02:40):
enforcement law enforcement.
So I have worked with agenciesthat I think, maybe more on an
unofficial capacity, withofficers reaching out to me to
meet with them and to do what Ican to help them.
There's an agency right nowthat's recruiting me to be part
of their chaplaincy, and for me,my experience has been as a
volunteer chaplain.
So there are some chaplainsthat are commissioned police
(03:04):
officers that get paid by thecity or the county, and so my
experience has always been as avolunteer.
Tyra Valeriano (03:10):
Okay, I want to just jump right into it.
Just because of your background, from your perspective, why is
mental health such a criticalissue for law enforcement today?
Jeff Kunze (03:21):
I think it always has been an issue.
I just think it's betteraddressed right now.
The stigma that goes with I'vegot issues or I've got a problem
where I need to talk to someoneis less, I think, for a while
because I'm kind of old for awhile, if you mentioned that
you're struggling mentally oremotionally, someone might think
(03:41):
that their job's on the line.
Um, someone might think thattheir job's on the line and so
to hold that in.
And you know, with policeofficers it's all about control
for safety's sake, to controltheir environment, control the
situation, um, and I think someof that works its way into
control your emotions, controlhow that particular scene or
incident has affected you and II believe that now, more
(04:05):
recently, the door's opening upto you can let go of some of
that control and talk about whatyou've experienced.
And it's okay to be human.
I've got plenty of stories ofworking with officers that you
have to break down that barrierand say let's talk.
And as a police chaplain, Ifound myself to be in a unique
(04:28):
position.
One of many resources that theofficer has you have peer
support.
You've got the therapist orcounselor that's provided by the
agency.
You've got their supervisor.
A chaplain can play a uniquerole because we're a safe place.
I'm not your supervisor.
A chaplain can play a uniquerole because we're a safe place.
I'm not your supervisor, I'mnot your shrink, so you can say
whatever you want to me.
As long as you don't want tohurt yourself or somebody else,
(04:52):
it stays with me.
Tyra Valeriano (04:54):
So what's a good way for you to approach
officers who are reluctant totalk about the struggles that
they're having?
Because, obviously, the firststep is saying, hey, I want to
talk to you and yes, even thoughyou're not their shrink, how is
it that you're able to get themto open up and talk about the
struggles that they're having?
Jeff Kunze (05:14):
It begins with developing relationships and I
know chaplains have their ownstereotype at least chaplains do
the agency that I served in theSt Louis area.
When I was being introduced toone of the roll call shifts, I
remember one officer saying tome well, I hope I never have to
see you.
(05:34):
I'm like what, what do you mean?
And so my first thing is I wantto get in that guy's car and
get to know him.
Right things.
I want to get in that guy's carand get to know him.
Where I believe this is just myopinion where I think some
chaplains get into trouble isthey feel that they're on a
mission to share their faithwith that officer because they
are, by definition, clergy.
(05:55):
If that's your first priority,you're probably going to fail.
If your first priority is justto get to know that person, ask
them questions why did you gointo law enforcement?
Get to know.
You know as much as they'rewilling to share and don't ask
stupid questions about hey, haveyou ever seen something really
bad?
Or you know.
And it's breaking down some ofthose stereotypes of a police
(06:17):
chaplain that I had to do tostart with and to let them know
I'm not a cop wannabe.
I'm not going into this becauseI want to be around guns and
badges and all that's so cool.
I'm in here because I genuinelycare about what you do.
I have a good understanding ofwhat you do, but I need to
understand the culture first andbe accepted into that culture.
That means I'm not going tobring judgments.
(06:38):
As a police chaplain, I servedmany who were claimed to be
agnostic or atheist, but I caredfor them the same I did with
all the others.
I want to get to know you as ahuman being, and so that
relationship has to be builtwith integrity.
Then I think, the door opens.
Tyra Valeriano (07:00):
And that's really important to know, and
that's really important to know.
So, for those of the officersthat are listening today, what
can you define for them thatmakes your role different than a
shrink or a counselor?
What do you do that makes yourposition?
Jeff Kunze (07:18):
different than that.
Yeah, I mean because and Idon't know what it's like in the
agencies for the officers whoare listening here I mean if
there are some supervisors whoare listening, who have under
their supervision the chaplains.
God bless you, thank you,continue to support them.
Chaplains need training to whatto say, what not to say, how to
be present, and it's reallygoing to come down to trust.
(07:41):
I think police departments arethe greatest gossip machines on
the planet and I mean they beatold ladies who are quilting in a
church basement.
I mean they are great gossipmachines and I mean that it can
be in a very good way.
And if you are serving anofficer and develop some trust
(08:05):
with that officer and he or shetells another officer, hey, you
can go to this chaplain, youknow, you can trust them.
That goes a long way.
You burn the bridge with oneand word's going to get out.
This guy just wants to shoveJesus down your throat.
And so I think for the officer,I think it goes both ways the
(08:26):
police officer can alsoencourage the chaplain and, I
guess, be able to say I respectwhat you're doing, thank you for
being here.
I think that role of thechaplain needs to be defined by
the department, by the agency,by the department, by the agency
and one of the agencies I'mworking with now.
(08:47):
They're more reactivechaplaincies chaplains rather
than proactive, and reactive isa whole different world.
I don't expect relationships tobuild with that because all
you're doing is reacting to.
The department says, hey, weneed a chaplain on scene or we
need the chaplain for somepublic event marriage, prayer,
breakfast, breakfast, whateverjust to be out in front of the
people.
(09:07):
Oh, there might be a funeral orsomething, because the family's
got a grandfather and theydon't have a church home or
something like that.
Call the chaplain when you needthem.
Whereas my approach is to beproactive and to get in there
and remind the officers I wasworking with that I am a safe
place, I will keep thingsconfidential and you can share
(09:27):
whatever you want your greatestfears or your successes or
whatever.
Every chaplain will be tested,tested with that confidence, but
even more tested the fact thatwe're clergy.
I get more cussing around methan probably the other officers
.
You know it.
Just, you know I had a littlegoatee once and and they're like
(09:50):
, hey, jump and shave that shitoff your face, just waiting to
see.
You know, get a ride on me.
Like what are you going to say?
Oh, you said a bad word.
I'm like, yeah, so I?
I think it requires theboundaries to be articulated,
(10:23):
you know, and not such in aformal way, but I mean because a
to see you said to me this iswhat I need to do.
I want you to see me, I wantyou to be able to reach out to
me if there's some stuff goingdown, if your world is spinning
out of control.
Tyra Valeriano (10:39):
You know, I want to say in my career I vaguely
remember having any kind ofcontact with the chaplain.
I want to say there was twocritical incidents that the
department or the agencyexperienced where we did have
the chaplain come in to do adebrief with the officers and I
want to say that's the only timethat I ever really saw the
(11:01):
chaplain on the officer side,the law enforcement side.
So I want to get into theleadership role of law
enforcement and how that canbenefit you in connecting with
police officers.
Do you feel that it is theleaders or the sergeants that
need to bring you in and informtheir officers about what it is
(11:22):
that you're providing for themas a resource?
Because I can tell you, in theacademy I don't recall ever
really having the discussion ofthe chaplain being something
that is a resource for policeofficers.
Jeff Kunze (11:35):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it has to start withthe leadership.
Yeah, and the agency that Iserved in the St Louis area.
I was invited in by the chiefof police.
They were wanting to buildtheir chaplain corps, chaplain
unit, and I had not been achaplain before, I'd worked with
, met with police officers as apastor and the relationship's
(11:59):
kind of already establishedthere by that title, but it was
new in the law enforcement arenaand so now if the police chief
isn't liked by a lot of patrol,then you know, then you've got
some bridge building to to dothere.
But if the chief is wellrespected and liked and he
brings in this chaplain, thenyou get to start on a pretty
(12:21):
good foot now.
Uh, there was a lieutenant thatwas our supervisor.
You get to start on a prettygood foot.
Now, there was a lieutenantthat was our supervisor.
It was me and three otherchaplains and it took their
support, not just in helping getthe word out on what our
chaplains are here to do, butour budget, our training, our
equipment.
You know we ask for vestsbecause we're doing ride-alongs
(12:43):
we are sitting shotgun with.
We get trained on the car.
We get, uh, I would, I would go.
Uh, they invite me to the range, which I loved, you know, to
learn to shoot.
I think I was asked many timesfor new officers Um, what are
(13:03):
you going to do if things gosideways and you know I'm like,
well, I'll you know're asking me.
Tyra Valeriano (13:06):
Am I going to pray or shoot, right, you know,
maybe both.
Jeff Kunze (13:09):
Yeah, I mean we'll start with.
You know, if you're threatenedor something's bad, I can help
eliminate the threat.
Yeah, they're going down.
No, you're asking what's mycore beliefs on capital
punishment.
It would be horriblyunfortunate, but I'm not going
to sit there and pray.
It would be horriblyunfortunate, but I'm not going
to sit there and pray, althoughthere was many times afterwards
(13:35):
that there were some prayers,thinking good Lord, I am a
volunteer and we almost died,but the supervision, or the
higher-ups, that is so important.
I helped build a chaplaincy inthe Kansas City area with a
smaller department and my advicethere was you need to invite
these pastors in who first showna um a desire to do this.
We were always leery of thosepastors that knocked on our door
and said we want to be a policechap.
Why do you want to be one?
(13:56):
You know, I think it's easierto recruit them and say will you
use your gifts and skills inthis culture and are you willing
to learn and understand theculture?
Tyra Valeriano (14:09):
I mean, that's a great question to be asking.
Why are you here, especially ifyou're not familiar with, you
know, the law enforcement worldand what they actually deal with
and you're just coming in.
Hey, I want to do this.
That's a great question to bewondering.
Why are you knocking on ourdoor?
What's making you want to behere?
Jeff Kunze (14:28):
Well, and maybe more has to be said.
In the academy or policedepartments, agencies, sheriff's
offices, I mean to be moreproactive in building a chaplain
corps or unit within the agencyIf he gets bogged down in
separation of church and state.
No, you're not asking them tocome and proselytize or to try
(14:50):
to get them, to recruit them totheir church or to their faith.
We had in my chaplain unit, wehad a rabbi that we could go to
for the officers of Jewish faith, for the officers of Jewish
faith, but we didn't have onethat committed to being in our
chaplain corps, but we had aCatholic priest and we just had
other Christian ministers.
(15:11):
But my training there was ifI'm in the field and I'm working
with a grieving family, helpingwith the death notification,
for instance, I'm not to impressmy faith upon them, but if they
ask me to pray with them, Iwould let them know I'm
Christian and so I'm going tohave a Christian prayer.
Are you okay with that?
(15:31):
And if they would say no, we'reMuslim, or we're okay with them
, see if I can find an imam, seeif I can help you find someone.
Right now I'm here to care foryou and my role there was the
officer needed me to help withthe scene.
That's full of grief, butreally my job is to help that
officer out so they can do thebest of what they do, right?
(15:54):
That means everybody in theroom is going batshit crazy and
if I can help calm that scenedown, then I would do that as a
chaplain until they could removethe body or do whatever, um,
but then ultimately they sitdown with that officer later and
say are you doing?
Okay, you know if it's a child,if it's whatever it might be,
and sat in quite a few debriefstoo with the use of deadly force
(16:14):
.
I was thankful that my agencywould say, like you've had in
your experience, they wouldbring a chaplain in and help do
that debrief.
And that would happen initially, right?
I mean, I was there right afterthe officer.
The detectives are taking hisweapon and everything.
It's an investigation, it's ahomicide.
(16:34):
And after he was interviewed,um, the captain said, all right,
now you're gonna have him, andso I'd sit down with them and
and, and the officer knew mealready because I'd already been
in his car.
You know, I wasn't, I wasn'tsome strange person that just
showed up, because I I would bearound the station, you know, if
(16:55):
there's police chaplainslistening to this, be present.
So many officers would saybefore.
We never saw our chaplain,unless he or she was needed
right be present, you know, walkaround and smack talk with them
.
I don't know.
You know you're making it whenthey start teasing you.
Right, that's the truth, likethey're doing everybody else
(17:15):
that is the truth.
Tyra Valeriano (17:17):
I want to ask you something.
I find it really interestinghow different your role is in a
police agency compared to whatI've experienced during my
career.
What is a normal day for youlike when you are at the
department, and what are youdoing with the police officers?
How are you engaging yourselfwith them so that, when that day
(17:39):
comes and they do need you,they're familiar?
Because I can tell you, there'sprobably one major incident
that I recall and I wouldn'thave felt comfortable talking to
the chaplain, and it's notbecause he's a stranger and I'm
concerned about that, but it'sjust.
Once again, it goes back tothat stigma.
We don't want to talk aboutthose things, especially with
(18:00):
people we don't know, and exposeourselves to someone who's
saying, hey, I'm here for you,this is what I do, and you don't
know anything about them.
So what is a normal day for youlike when you're there at the
agency or the department?
Jeff Kunze (18:14):
Because mine has always been volunteer.
I'm not quitting my day job andso I would tell my day job I
need to block this time.
Now you have the on call, whereyou can't schedule major
incidences right, they justhappen.
So it could be the middle ofthe night, whatever.
But just on a, on arelationship building, um, I
(18:34):
would try to be there for awhole shift.
Get there, um, we called itmuster but a roll call and then
I would talk with the supervisorof that shift and say you know,
is there someone that you wantme to get into the car with?
If I'm not doing a ride along,then it is just walking around
the station because you've gotsupport staff, you've got your
detectives, investigators are upthere, you know, at their seats
(18:57):
, and and then you got thecommand staff and to be able to
go talk with them.
And how are they doing?
So it wasn't just.
I think there's patrol chaplainsand I was in a meeting not long
ago.
They were trying to define apatrol chaplain versus an
administrative chaplain.
I don't think you should makethat a difference, that you're
just a patrol, you're justadministrative.
I think you know you're thereto care for them.
(19:20):
The word spiritual might scaresome people, but what makes it
different is if they go see theshrink they may not know the
shrink, but the shrink's doingtheir job.
They want to make sure thatyou're okay.
Men, slow to return to work.
The supervisor's doing theirjob, not saying they don't care
for you as a human being, but,um, the chaplain brings a little
(19:40):
different level of care carefor you as a human being, who
you are, as a person, and again,not there to try to impose
spiritual beliefs or faith, butbe willing to share if they're
asking questions on that or beable to find the right resource
for them.
So a typical day, if it's ashift, I try to do the whole
(20:02):
shift.
So midnights killed me becausethose that are doing mids are
used to it, right I?
Tyra Valeriano (20:08):
work during the day.
Jeff Kunze (20:09):
Now I'm showing up and I'm going to get in your car
around nine, three, 10 o'clockor you know you're going to drop
me off at 6am, but some ofthose shifts were great because
there's not a lot of stuff goingon and you can just talk.
Tyra Valeriano (20:24):
Out of those conversations that you had with
police officers, I'm curious,without, of course, being
specific about any situation wasa lot of their struggles based
on traumatic experiences thatthey had at work or, you know,
is it a wide variety of factorsthat are outside of work and
home life and financials, andall of that, what is a common
(20:47):
reoccurrence that you've seenwithin the field since you've
been doing this?
Jeff Kunze (20:53):
Most of what I dealt with was incidences that
happened on the job, and then wecould talk later about how that
was affecting a relationship oreven how they felt about
themselves.
And just if you will, just oneone quick thing.
I worked with a police officer.
Um, she worked a fatality.
It was a, um, a partialejection, without getting too
(21:15):
graphic.
But hey, officers are listeningto this.
Um, the body's twisted outsideof the driver's side and so the
person's alive.
But as soon as you move thatbody, it's I think I've heard it
say like a subway accident too.
As soon as you move that body,the blood's going to flow and
they'll die.
This was a teenager who had hislicense for 10 days.
(21:36):
She was on scene, she waschecking his pulse, they moved
the body.
He dies.
I was not part of the deathnotification, but she goes.
She has to knock on the door ofhis mom and say that your son
has died in a car accident.
And then she asked the questionthe mom did are you a mom?
And she goes yes, I am, shegoes.
(21:58):
Well, I feel.
So I'm so glad that another momwas holding my son's hand when
he died.
Now, that messed her up.
She had worked so manyfatalities.
So I get a phone call or a textor an email saying can you meet
with such and such officer?
I'm like, yeah, and she's likeI am having nightmares.
I am, I don't know that I'mcrying.
(22:22):
My boyfriend said talk to thechaplain.
So, damn it, I got to talk toyou.
I'm like, well, let's talkabout this.
You're suffering what's calledpost-traumatic stress disorder,
because it's been longer than 30days, so let's walk through
this.
Now.
I'm not a counselor, I'm not atherapist.
I mean, I've recommended EMDRand other techniques that really
(22:44):
help officers.
But my job there was to let herknow she wasn't going crazy.
You're a human being and youbecame a mom at that death
notification, not just anofficer, right, and you got to
grieve that.
And so we walked through thewhole investigation.
She talked it through and inthis case she didn't need
(23:06):
additional therapy.
It just needed to get out andunderstand why she was feeling
the way she was feeling.
Her boyfriend said thank you,because she thought her world
was.
Why is this one bothering me somuch?
Now, from my side of things, Iended up doing the funeral
because this young man was amember of the congregation I was
(23:28):
serving, so that kind of madeit you know great from my end,
but at any rate that would be anexample of yeah, you're having
a problem, let's talk it through.
I didn't know her, her, thatwell.
I've been in her car a fewtimes.
Um, it was out of reluctancethat they, you know, or she told
(23:50):
her boyfriend I'll go talk tothe chaplain, so you don't want
to lose her job, talk to ashrink and um, so, anyway,
that's.
I don't know if that helpsanswer the question, but that's
one of the work-relatedinstances that I feel I was able
to help with.
She took a risk to trust me andof course, she could.
Tyra Valeriano (24:15):
Would you say that your role?
I mean, like I said, I thinkit's pretty amazing what you do,
because this is not theexperience I had in my career
with a chaplain and even though,if I think back about the type
of people I worked with, I'm notsure that they would be open to
the idea.
But if, let's say, it's out ofyour scope at this point and
(24:40):
you're talking to them and yourealize, hey, this might be a
little bit more than what I cando for you, do you give them the
resources?
Are you outsourcing them towhere they need to go to get the
help that they need?
Jeff Kunze (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely To get a good trauma therapist and
I can help them through somecritical incident stress
management, but as a chaplain.
But you know, to get a trustedresource maybe it's through the
department.
And what I would always saywhich I've done actually and
doing right now is that I'llwalk with you through that, so
(25:14):
I'm not handing you off, letsomeone else deal with it.
Let's get together for a cup ofcoffee and tell me how did that
session go and was it helpful?
You can fire a therapist andget a different one.
So then that you know my roletakes a little different.
You know they can talk aboutwhat they're learning about
(25:35):
themselves and so forth.
And then you know and roletakes a little different.
You know they can talk aboutwhat they're learning about
themselves and so forth.
And then you know and I canlisten, I have enough experience
to know some of the terminology.
I said EMDR before.
So when it's stuck in a certainplace, right, and that type of
technique is is amazing, and andso to see them have success
(25:57):
with that, and then come backand talk.
I'm working with a actually hejust retired with severe ptsd,
uh, major crimes unit, a lot ofdeath, a lot of autopsies, like
400 autopsies in 400 on topseason, three, five years.
I don't know Um and he wasgoing on some retreats and
(26:21):
things too for officers forhealing and um.
So just to sit down with somecoffee and hear about how it was
going for him, you know it was.
It was really special Um andit's interesting, in his
retirement, which just tookplace about three weeks ago, he
talked about um wellness, mentalhealth for police officers
(26:42):
because he was going for helpand it works.
And they have the war horse umministry.
I don't know if it's called aministry, but it's war horse in
the Kansas city area.
So horses that are horses, havehealing powers.
So his goal was to help raisethat awareness and I want to be
(27:04):
able to say I know here's thedanger of you having a pastor on
a podcast.
We will not shut up.
Tyra Valeriano (27:10):
Oh no.
I'm very drawn into this.
In fact, you've alreadymentioned something that there's
certain things you've talkedabout that trigger memories for
me in my career.
Just hearing you talk about it,I'm thinking, you know, maybe I
haven't dealt with some of thestuff that you know I've gone
through, and this is just arealization for a lot of people
who are probably listening.
I'm sure you've said somethingthat's resonated with them.
(27:33):
And this is the indicator that,hey, there is stuff that you
probably haven't dealt with.
And this is why I'm doing thispodcast, because it's so
important to put it out thereand make people aware that, hey,
we might be holding it in andthinking we're good, but maybe
we're not.
And this is the opportunitythat you have to say, hey, I
(27:53):
need to work on it, I need towork on myself.
Jeff Kunze (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, the brain stores everything and so
it's because of this officerthat I was working with I'm
seeing a trauma therapist.
In fact I have a sessiontomorrow afternoon, and here's
where that went.
I'm listening to his war storywe're swapping war stories and
from a chaplain's side of things, you know I mean I was still on
(28:18):
scene, you know bad stuff andwhatever and of course, him
being a police officer, majorcrimes.
Not that we're trying to one-upeach other, but it dawned on me
one time in our visits what ifhe turns the question around to
me and says, chaplain, what areyou doing for you?
Because there's a lot ofsecondary trauma, there's a lot
(28:40):
that I've absorbed over 30 years, walking with people in the
darkest places, the darkest ofmoments.
Yes, there's joys and stuff too.
So when I went to go see mytrauma therapist, I found a
really good one.
She said why?
Now I'm like that's a greatquestion.
Because I said I'm really goodat compartmentalizing things,
(29:00):
but all those compartments arefull, so I need you to empty a
few of them for me.
Okay, cause I started gettingsome triggers from my own
experience and working withtrauma.
So I've recommended to so manyofficers, so I've recommended to
so many officers the techniquesthat are out there.
So for the first time in mylife she took me through EMDR.
(29:21):
I'm not here to promote that,but it is a technique that
actually works.
It's amazing.
The brain feels like it's justrun a triathlon.
But I thought too I had dealtwith this particular thing many
years ago or that year, and itturns out I didn't, and so I
(29:41):
feel I've got even moreintegrity now that I've gone to
talk with someone and get somehelp, because I thought to
myself as a chaplain I'm notopposing that, I'm stronger than
you, the officer.
The chaplain system that's setup in the Kansas City area here
(30:02):
now is much different than itwas in the St Louis area where I
served before, and I wish wewould have the resources for
chaplains back in the St Louisarea, like there are where I'm
at now.
So I know a few chaplains whereI'm at now.
So I know a few chaplains andif the situation, if we've dealt
with a situation, it's likeprotocol to call one another,
call out, call another chaplainand say, hey, I just went
(30:24):
through this.
So it's kind of its own supportsystem within.
I mean, who's supporting thosesupport people?
Tyra Valeriano (30:31):
who's?
Jeff Kunze (30:32):
caring for the caregivers and and that's if
you're going to be a chaplain inthis area, that's kind of a
given you need to make sureyou're not just
compartmentalizing these thingslike I was doing.
Make sure you're not just goinghey, I'll just work through it
and I want to be there for them.
Who cares about me, and that'snot a good place to be.
(30:54):
And even though it took a longtime in my ministry and career
to recognize that that's not agood place to be, and even
though it took a long time in mymy ministry and career to
recognize that, it's not toolate.
And if you have some officerslistening now going yeah, I've
been doing this for 20 years, 25years, I know what I'm doing.
No, it doesn't mean that you'vebeen doing it wrong.
You know you've servedadmirably with great sacrifice
and experienced things that therest of the world will never
(31:16):
experience.
It's okay to let someone helpyou process those things.
Tyra Valeriano (31:21):
All right.
Jeff Kunze (31:22):
I'm kind of curious.
Tyra Valeriano (31:24):
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
I want to ask you a quickquestion just based off of what
you said, because you areexperiencing the same things
that the police officers are outin the field.
You're in the car with them,you're able to joke with them,
understand their humor, you'rekind of just down, even with
them, on their level, thatthey're experiencing at that
time.
I know this might seem like anodd question, but I'm genuinely
(31:46):
curious.
Do you have that dark sense ofhumor that they have and you're
able to relate, or is that justsomething that's off the table
because you are a chaplain late?
Jeff Kunze (31:56):
or is that just something that's off the table
because you are a chaplain?
Oh, if you don't have thatsense of humor, oh yeah, the,
the, the dark sense of humor Ican, I can bring it up with the
rest of them.
Um, uh, absolutely We've, andit's funny because there's, um,
there's so many people that therest of the world would go oh,
you can't joke about that,that's disrespectful.
(32:16):
You're not.
It's not disrespectful, it'sjust seeing that humor in the
most bizarre and horrible youknow that situations or or
whatever.
So, yes, um, yeah, I, probablya clergy, might have the worst
sense of humor than other.
Okay, I didn't mean to cut youoff.
(32:42):
I was just, I was curious and Ididn't want to forget to ask you
.
Yeah, no, absolutely In fact,if you're an officer and your
chaplain's in the car with youand he or she doesn't see kind
of the dark humor and things,then you can drop them off at
the local gas station.
They can get a ride home.
Tyra Valeriano (32:59):
So what is one thing that you would want to
tell officers based on whatyou've experienced over the time
that you've been working at thedepartment?
What is one thing or one pieceof advice you would want to give
them from what you've seen ordealt with?
Jeff Kunze (33:15):
Yeah, if they don't have a chaplain program in the
agency, I would encourage that.
I would ask them to go to theirsupervisors and say this is the
value of it and it's not aboutsome people have a very horrible
taste in their mouth for thechurch and for religion, jesus
(33:37):
or whoever.
It's not about that.
It can become that if that'swhere the officer wants to go
and I've shared my faith manytimes but it's about caring for
the officers on a human level,as human beings, and being
present.
So I would encourage them, ifthey don't have a chaplaincy
program, to get those that arecertified or a member of the
(34:01):
International Conference ofPolice Chaplains, icpc.
Make sure that you get a goodchaplain program going.
And what's great is there'sgreat networking, because that
agency might say hey, how didyou guys get your chaplains
together?
And then the hard work happensand then they have to go recruit
(34:22):
pastors who will give of theirtime because this is volunteer.
Most places are.
And hopefully that sayssomething to the agency too that
we're here because we care, notbecause we're here to make
money.
I was paid $1 a year from theSt Louis area agency for legal
purposes so that I could be onthe insurance program if
(34:43):
something happened in the carand I got injured.
So when I left that agency Ithink I was owed like $3.
It was three years I didn't geta dollar.
Tyra Valeriano (34:52):
Well, I mean the taxes on that.
You probably wouldn't have anymoney left anyway.
Just buy me a dollar.
Well, I mean the taxes on that.
Jeff Kunze (34:57):
You probably wouldn't have any money left
anyway, so just buy me aStarbucks.
Tyra Valeriano (35:01):
I don't even think the $3 would cover a
Starbucks.
Jeff Kunze (35:03):
No, you're right.
Tyra Valeriano (35:06):
Yes, okay, so I I know that you said this is a
volunteer job.
One thing that I'm working onis a course for first responders
to create a wellness program attheir agency, and what is
really part of that course isgoing to be I want to call it a
catalog of some sort ofresources that they have.
(35:29):
Now, being that you work in aspecific area, are you
accessible to other officers inother areas, or are you just
dedicated to the area thatyou're in and that's the only
place that you can really justbe involved with officers?
Jeff Kunze (35:46):
No, I've opened myself up, especially the men
and women that I served in theSt Louis area.
I'm still in touch with some ofthem.
Um, the last thing that I hadthere was a line of duty death
funeral that I had to do, andthen I left the area, and so I'm
even in touch with his wifestill, and how things are going
(36:06):
with their kids and stuff.
So those relationships whenthey're built, some friendships
are built into and um, but thenI've had others contact me from
from elsewhere too, and, um, youknow I want to help where I can
.
I don't pretend to have all theanswers.
There's some really goodchaplains out there that, um,
some that even have moretraining than me, um, uh, who
(36:28):
have the ability to um, eitherget get paid in such a way that
they can spend more time withthe agency, or retired and um,
so I've always wanted to makemyself available.
I think if, if you are, ifyou've experienced something
that's successful and and made adifference in someone's life,
(36:48):
um, I think you owe it to paythat forward.
That's over you saying, but Ithink you owe that to teach and
to to share.
That here's what worked where Iwas at.
It doesn't mean it will workeverywhere, but so when I was
asked to help set up a police, achaplain thing in this area, I
just took my experience and saidhere's what I think you should
(37:09):
do to have a successful program.
Tyra Valeriano (37:13):
Right and what before?
We're running out of time, butI wanted to ask you what kind of
training do you go through withthe agency?
What kind of training do theyput you through?
I know you mentioned that yougot to go to the range and what
is some of the training thatthey have you guys do?
Jeff Kunze (37:35):
back then was through the International
Conference of Police Chaplains,and then they would have their
seminars and courses that youcan take and to go there and
like a convention it is aconvention if you will and sign
up for certain things and getthe training that you need there
.
Otherwise, my training would bethrough my profession with
(37:58):
pastoral care and so forth.
But my next step would be to Idon't have my board-certified
chaplaincy, which is what youwould need in a hospital setting
.
There might be some agenciesthat would require that.
I would think that you at leastneed to have a congregation or
(38:19):
you're a member of the clergy tobe a chaplain, you know.
So I think that qualificationshould be a given and I think
any additional training thatthey can do, and so the
department I was with would payfor us to go for some course
training and Okay.
And um certification.
Tyra Valeriano (38:41):
Okay, well, I know we are coming close to an
end and I do normally askeverybody a question, uh, that I
ask all of my guests, but itdoesn't actually apply to you.
So I'm actually just going toask you if there's anything that
you want to share with thelisteners and if there's
something specific you want themto know.
Jeff Kunze (39:00):
You know.
I would just reiterate ifyou've got a chaplain in your
agency, to get to know thatchaplain, and if that chaplain
is not making themselvesavailable, then talk to the
supervisors to say let's rethinkwhat the role of chaplains can
do for the well-being of theofficers and their families.
Peer support counselors putchaplains in there too, and so I
(39:26):
would say, be an advocate foryour agency too, and if you've
got a good chaplaincy program,share it with surrounding
agencies that this is what we'redoing and and that makes a big
impact on the community.
Tyra Valeriano (39:40):
Thank you for that.
If there's any questions thatthe listeners have that they
want to ask you, is there a waythat they can contact you?
Jeff Kunze (39:47):
I think through my LinkedIn profile would be.
I don't know how you share thaton a podcast.
Tyra Valeriano (39:53):
Just maybe your name or how you have your name
listed on there.
Jeff Kunze (39:58):
Yeah, so I mean it's , it's jeff kunze and okay, I
believe that, though I believethat's all it is on on the
willington profile there, right,and jeffrey kunze.
Sorry, jeffrey is what.
I'm in trouble, but yeah,j-e-f-f-r-e-y kunze, k-u-n-z-e
and I should say olat Kansas,that's a suburb of Kansas City.
Tyra Valeriano (40:18):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, jeff.
I appreciate your time.
I really am excited that we hadthis conversation today,
because not only was this verydifferent than what I have
interviewed already, but thisshows a different perspective to
the whole purpose of why Istarted this podcast, and it was
actually an eye opener for meas well.
So I appreciate your time.
(40:40):
Thank you for all of yourexpertise and your knowledge and
for sharing that with us, forthose of you listening.
Thank you for tuning in, besafe and we'll see you on the
next one.
Thank you for joining me onChapter Blue.
If you enjoyed today's episode,be sure to follow and tag me on
social media and share withyour friends and fellow officers
.
If you're interested in joiningan episode, I'd love for you to
(41:00):
be a part of the conversation.
Until next time, stay safe,take care of yourself and
remember you're never alone inthis journey.
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