Chasing Thoughts | S03 E04 - The Arena of Dreams: Navigating Fear and Growth - Chasing Thoughts

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What is my next challenge in daring to be human?

(00:10):
How do I connect with life?
How can I let go of my need for fixed answers in favor of aliveness?
How do I live free from the experiences that shaped me?
How can we be the change the world names right now?
Join us weekly for stony conversations about life.
It is our mission to allow life itself to reveal to us the answers.

(00:38):
Welcome to Chasing Thoughts.
Good morning, everybody, or good afternoon.
Welcome to Chasing Thought.
Still morning for me over here in Bend, Oregon, 10 AM for Keith.
It's afternoon.

(00:59):
Yeah, 1 o'clock.
Yeah, you've already had a lot of your day.
Yeah, not much to show for it.
I feel like my day ends at 3.
Like, I don't want to do shit after 3.
Yeah.
I like getting up early.
I like being super productive.
And then around 3, like, I want to start winding down.

(01:20):
Maybe I'll do some chores, clean up some.
If I have to work late, it is not good.
I'm not built for that.
Yeah, it's funny because I'm the exact opposite.
Like, my things go slow.
And then I'll go up until, like, Sandy gets home, you know,
and then we'll have dinner and stuff like that.

(01:41):
And then once she goes to bed, I'll do, like, another hour,
hour and a half.
Like, I have more energy later.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
It's something that is so neat about working from home
and the shift in culture and being content creators
or all these jobs that let you align with your own rhythms.

(02:04):
Yeah.
What has been, like, the biggest gift
I never knew I wasn't getting?
Right?
Yeah.
I feel like my whole life, I had to work.
And, you know, when I was a single mom, it was like,
I couldn't even go home early.

(02:24):
I needed 40 hours on my paycheck.
And when you are just on somebody else's schedule all the time,
when you eat, when you go to the bathroom, when you wake up,
when you don't realize how dishonoring that can be.
And I feel like after my accident and as I get older,

(02:45):
and my body needs its own rhythms to be happy.
And like, my psyche too, right?
Mental and physical.
And I just hope more people, you know,
with the change of technology and stuff,
can find jobs that let them do it their way, right?
Yeah.

(03:05):
Yeah, I remember I saw a video from a psychiatrist.
And she was talking about one of the best practices
to start sort of like to calm your nervous system, you know?
And it was just listen to your body.
When you're thirsty, like once you hit that realization,

(03:26):
go get a drink.
You know, don't wait, you know, whatever.
And if you got to use the bathroom,
once you have that realization, just go.
You know?
But there's a huge section of our day that's
carved out where you can't listen to the rhythms of your body.
Not even the normal nine to five work world, you can't.

(03:48):
Yeah.
And it's, I don't know.
I guess you have to double down when you get home
or something, you know?
But you have to go off the schedule.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what I'm loving about this season of my life
is just doing whatever I want when I want to.
And it's not that I'm not working hard,

(04:09):
but having the flexibility to respond to how I feel.
It's everything to me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a hard transition to make, too.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what I want to talk about,
because we said we wanted to talk about where we wanted

(04:29):
to go with the show, kind of pipe dreams,
and also what's going on in our lives right now that's
really blocking us.
Like what are we wrestling with?
That's what we texted about, right?
Is that, do I have that?
Yeah.
And I thought about it a lot since we were texting.
And I realized I'm living my dream life right now.

(04:54):
And you talk about manifesting and things like that.
Like I manifested my dad to move here, my sister to move here,
right?
Friends, jobs I love doing a podcast, right?
You know how many people I talk to and they're like,
oh, I've been wanting to do a podcast for a long time,
like fucking doing it.
Like just everything in my life, right?

(05:15):
I have a great marriage.
It's going so well.
I have my flexibility of time.
We have enough money.
Like I have never been so happy.
And when I think about the future of the podcast
and where I want to go with my business,
it could get so good.

(05:39):
I don't even know how to describe how good it would be for me
and what a dream come true.
Like how much I'm living the life I dreamed of for 30 plus years,
right?
Like most of my life.
And that is terrifying.

(05:59):
Like I try so hard to lean into the gratitude
and just be like, thank you, thank you, thank you.
But there is terror.
Like right here, this is just like,
woo, I want to come up and grab you.
Like I feel it.
And that is my biggest block.
Like how, what is my relationship with this fear?

(06:22):
And it feels so like animalistic, right?
Like so much part of my animal self is like,
we've kept you alive.
We're going to keep keeping you alive, right?
You've got to be aware all the time.
You can't get too happy, right?
Like this fear that's so visceral.
And if I want to go where I want to go,

(06:42):
I have to develop a new relationship with that.
And I don't know what the F that looks like.
So that's where I'm at today.
Like I would love to explore like, what does it really
look like to change your relationship with fear?
Because all of us have it.
It's not going to go completely away, right?

(07:03):
Like there is an animal part of us,
and some of us have more PTSD or anxiety.
But yeah, what do you think?
I think you perfectly described where both of us
are right now.
You know, yesterday I did, I got so much done.
Dude, I downloaded CapCut for the desktop.

(07:30):
Like the app, and I'm loving that thing.
That's really cool.
Oh my god.
Yeah, I feel like a movie editor just sitting there,
and I'm like, oh, I'm changing the color,
changing the contrast filters, just playing with all this stuff.
I'm like, I feel it just made me so freaking happy doing that.
Yeah, and it's pretty intuitive learning

(07:52):
how to use the tools.
And you can have it put captions on your videos,
and it'll automatically do that.
And it's a great tool.
And I did that yesterday too, and I had so much fun.
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm sure there are tons of videos
that you can watch how to learn how to use it in depth.

(08:12):
But like you said, it's very intuitive.
Like I haven't watched anything, any tutorials on it.
And it's so easy to pick up.
You know, it's very, very user friendly.
I feel like we're doing a commercial right now for Cap.
So put it in.
Yeah, put it in.
I'm gonna just sponsor this episode.
Put in promo code weed, and I get 20% off.

(08:36):
Yeah, CapCut, reach out, man.
But all right, so yeah, that.
But yeah, so I've been having the same exact feeling.
And what made me think of that is because when
I get into the work, I sort of lose, it's meditative.
So I sort of lose the thought I'm completely present.

(08:59):
And I lose all of that fear.
But even like right now, and even when you were,
you know, moving, like showing down here in your stomach,
I feel this like tightness in my stomach,
a tightness in my chest.
And it's almost like my brain is yelling at me
24 hours a day, like what the fuck are you doing?

(09:19):
You know, and like you said, like to keep me safe.
It's shocking to me to see that even getting what we want,
you know, our comfort zone not only has a basement,
but it has a ceiling to it.
And it is developing a new relationship.

(09:41):
And I think belief is one of those fundamental blocks
of like emotion, you know, we all have different triggers.
We all have different things we get happy and excited about.
But when you get down to like the atomic level emotionally,
like belief is one of those foundational things.

(10:01):
And what gives me hope for having this new relationship
with fear is what we just did going from doing a business
to being creators and artists.
And how for me that sort of, I had that wall there
that would stop me when I thought of myself

(10:23):
as I own a business, I'm running a business.
And then it was almost like a teleportation,
like Star Trek, man, you know, like they just
booped me out to this other side when I started thinking of,
I'm an artist, I'm a creator, you know, I'm a story,
I'm a stoner story teller.
And that's what gives me hope that all of this fear of,

(10:47):
and when it comes down to it, I'm not good enough.
Right.
You know, that it's gonna prove,
this is gonna prove to me that I am not good enough
and my nervous system doesn't, I mean,
all of our nervous systems don't wanna face that.
Yep.
And it is kicking my ass.
Yeah, it's really, as Bernay Brown would say,

(11:10):
getting into the arena, like fully showing up
and going after something that feels
so incredible and that you're so in love with,
that the idea of losing it or it crashing or, right,
or being judged, right, like all those things,
the loss of it, I'm not good enough to sustain this,
whatever it is, is very real.

(11:34):
Yeah.
And I think you're right.
It's always amazing to me how I can change a belief system
or reframe a thought.
And then like you said, it's like teleportation, right?
You're like, oh, I see it differently.
So because both of us have had those types of experiences,
we know this is gonna be like that too, right?

(11:55):
We don't quite see the way around it right now.
But if we investigate, we might find the answer, right?
That little nut that goes like click
and then everything flows again.
That's what I always tell my clients.
If you feel like you're pushing a rock uphill
with your growth, that's not,
you're not doing it right.
It's searching and investigating

(12:17):
and then finding the one nut, I think,
and then everything flows.
But you don't quite, like, I don't know if this fear is this,
my poverty and my childhood,
is this my mom leaving when I was young?
Is this like, why do I have things that are overactive
in my fear department?
Is it childhood stuff?
Or is it just the world I live in,

(12:39):
which always tells me be afraid
and that's what I see on TV and that's what I think.
Right, what is creating this fear is my first question.
And then second, yeah, like what's my relationship with it?
I'd like to know both those things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the creation aspect is everything.

(13:01):
You know, it's all of that combined,
which makes it a hard thing because then it's like,
all right, do I deal with the past that is,
this is reminding me of something in the past
and it's telling me to stay away from it.
Do I deal with that?
Do I deal with the society?
Like you said, that is always wanting us to be afraid.

(13:24):
And then you have the sort of entertainment world
that is standard of beauty and success.
That is, I mean, even like a lot of models and actors
will say like, I don't look like that.
You know what I mean?
And when you see that like pictures of them, you know,
just on the street or whatever, it's like, wow, they look very,

(13:47):
they look more like a normal person.
You know, so we have this standard of success that is,
is so high and it comes with material possessions and material
gains and all that sort of stuff.
So it's all of that.
And then it's our own personal belief about, about how we feel

(14:13):
about it. And like one of the things that I learned is that we,
we all, all, all humans share two basic fears that I'm not going
to be enough.
And that since I'm not, I won't be loved.
Right.
So everything comes down to these two core fears that we love
and we learn so, so early in our lives that are so deep inside.

(14:39):
Yeah.
Yeah. So how do you go back for them? Right?
How do you ease that and soften that fear, right?
Or whatever memories are lingering from childhood,
bring them into alignment, become the one that's in control,

(15:00):
right?
Become the parent of these fears.
Cause right now I think my fears, I've got like 51%.
Right. Like my fears used to be, they were running the show more,
I think this month or two, like with what we've been doing in the
personal growth work, I might like 51, but that's barely it.
Like to respond to this dream and keep working.

(15:22):
I need to be at like 80% at least over these fears,
these little bitches.
And what habits do I need or what do I need to tell myself so that
I can do that every day and practice it and practice it and remember it
and remember it.
What's real enough to me to pull me into that space.

(15:46):
And what, what if this is like the question I always ask myself,
like what if the answer is by ignoring them?
And so here's my thought.
So to me, like those fears and my anxiety and all this,
all this feeling, they're like,

(16:07):
when you're on a road trip with kids and that are in the backseat and
like, you're on my side, no, you're on my side.
We're going to be like, and they just don't stop.
And you, you sit there and you try to take it, you know,
and you try to focus on like, oh, we're going on vacation or whatever.
But at a certain point,
you know, like either my mom or dad's hand was always flinging around
the seat, like just waving wildly, like just trying to get us to shut up.

(16:31):
You know, so it demands our attention.
And the more we focus on it, even focusing on not wanting to feel it
or why am I feeling it?
We're focusing on that feeling.
And then our brain gives us more of that feeling.
And then we're going to be like,
we're going to be like, what's the point in that feeling?

(16:53):
And then our brain gives us more of that feeling.
Right. So really the trick is what is the opposite of that?
Or what do you want to feel so we can put our focus there?
Yeah. And then the way,
because the way you were describing your dream life,
like when you got into that, I mean, there was a change.
Like kind of glowed with, with everything that you were saying.

(17:15):
Yeah.
I know what you're talking about. Yeah, you're right.
So what if it's really just, and ignoring is a harsh word because
you want to honor your feeling, but accepting say, okay,
I'm really anxious right now.
Right.
That's trying to drive my focus into this.
Thing of like, why am I feeling this way?

(17:36):
I need to figure this thing out so I can answer it.
And that answer will make it go away.
Right.
Instead of looking at,
I'm going to keep my focus on the horizon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like that a lot.
I feel like for me, how that would look in my life is.
When I feel that come up, I'd say, like you said, like, oh,

(17:57):
I recognize my fear is trying to like.
Run the show right now.
And then like,
pause and do a 10 minute meditation,
especially because I like to make my own meditation.
So like,
I could make a meditation of my future vision or what I need to
hear real line and then get back to my day or get back to work.
Like that.

(18:18):
I've been trying to deal with myself in that way.
When I notice my brain going.
To a crazy place.
It's like, time out.
I don't keep working.
I don't keep doing whatever I'm doing.
I actually go spend some time trying to like.
Change my mindset.
And this has been really helpful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and I think it's important too to understand that.

(18:39):
Doing that won't necessarily make the feeling go away.
Right.
You know, because then I start to ask myself what,
what is my expectation of this is my expectation of this to be able
to overcome this, this fear, change that belief system.
That's driving this feeling that I don't like.
Or is my expectation to get the feeling to stop.

(19:00):
Right.
Yes.
Was that, was that your phone?
That was the best.
Griffin texts.
Yeah.
Isn't that great.
I downloaded it from somewhere.
It was like, Hey, this texted me.
It's so awesome.
Yeah.
Cause I just hear Pete.

(19:21):
And you know how much I love Peter Griffin.
You're the person who needs that key.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not sure if I'm the one who's the one who's the one who
is.
You're the person who needs that key.
If you will go and download Peter Griffin ringtone,
because that's for.

(19:43):
Oh, that's so awesome.
Yeah.
So yeah, that.
Oh,
so tell me.
What is the thing that you really want?
Like what would be your focus?
like that dream that makes you glow when you talk about it?

(20:03):
What are the aspects of that?
So I want to basically like you said,
enjoy that freedom and free my mind from preconceived ideas
of what that freedom means.

(20:23):
Take away the good or the bad.
I want to spend my day watching documentaries,
reading books, smoking weed.
Like it opens my mind up.
The way I picture it,
and I just smoke before we come on.

(20:43):
So I'm like, I'm feeling that right now.
I feel like the top of my head is just like wide open,
you know, and the way I picture it in my mind is
you ever see like those books like in a movie or something,
it's going to be a fairy tale story.
It's like all ornate and everything.
Yeah, it opens up and like the story kind of comes up
out of the book.
That's what my mind feels like when I smoke

(21:06):
and then focus it on this stuff,
on what we're doing and all the stuff I'm learning.
And it feels like I move through like, you know,
hyperspace on Star Trek, you know?
And I feel the focus, the line that just pulls me.

(21:29):
It's almost like this never ending thing
of all of these realizations and ideas and thoughts
that just fly by my mind that I can,
there's so many of them,
but I can grasp onto each one, you know, momentarily.
And that's why I like making my videos when I'm like that,
you know?

(21:50):
And that's what I want to do, you know, do that
and figure out those puzzle pieces and explore
and figure out exactly who I am,
the parts that I can see and understand
and also the parts that we don't have,
like our senses can't comprehend that consciousness part.

(22:14):
Yeah.
And then just if people want to come along for the ride, great.
You know, if they don't, great.
It's just what I want to do.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think for me, there's two parts.
One that's very similar to yours,
just know myself and research things I'm passionate about
and read all the personal development books.

(22:37):
And, right, I love that stuff so much.
Talk about it on podcasts, right?
That's what I want to do.
But I also have a desire to figure out, like, play in the world
in such a way where I figure out, how do you make money as an influencer

(22:58):
and what does content creating and how do you link the,
like I have fun playing in that entrepreneurial world.
And so for me, like, I spend so much time watching educational videos
and that kind of stuff, how to make better videos,
how to do, especially now that these last couple of weeks is you
and I've changed this idea.
When I think of myself as an artist, I'm like, oh, I need to spend time

(23:20):
learning how to do my craft.
And so it's totally changed the way and I'm so thrilled with how much
I've learned, but being financially successful or making beautiful
videos or figuring out how to get paid from a brand for making a
beautiful, like to me, that is also part of the fun of what I want
in my future.

(23:41):
Because to me, that's fine.
Yeah. Yeah, I definitely want to be able to support myself by doing
this.
And I think I found out a way that I can do it that aligns like very
well with me, you know, offering like, you know, like we were talking
about like the Patreon thing for very cheap, you know, and then some

(24:03):
other ideas and stuff.
And that, that, that is, that is a cool and like a fun part of that.
So yeah, I think, I think you're right.
Like being able to do this.
And just being able to like just play with our lives.
And make money from it, you know, who was the dude that said that

(24:24):
get paid to play.
Yeah, I can't think of his head either.
Yeah, cheese.
Alan Watts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What a dream, man.
Right. I know that's that big dream.
So when you, when you think about that.
Do you feel clear? Is it like good and you feel like, or is that

(24:49):
some of that fear lingering onto it?
There's definite fear because I have a, like a narrative in my
head that that's just not how the world works.
Like it's too good to be true.
Yeah.
And I think that's what that's what that's what mine says is like,
what you're thinking of is too good to be true.

(25:12):
And it must be the next sentence must be like,
and you don't deserve something that good, right?
Or it has to be go back to on worthiness.
Cause like you said, that's the crux of everything.
Yeah.
I'm not good enough to get that done.
Yeah.
So there, there's a big part of that.
But interestingly though,
I think that's what I'm talking about.

(25:35):
I think that's what I'm talking about.
And so while I was talking about that and something I just realized
because I had that, I now I got that feeling back, you know,
the tightness in my stomach and in my chest.
When I was talking about that though.
I don't remember anything else I was thinking about.
And a lot of times when I'm talking.
Like the voice in my head can be louder than what I'm saying.
So like that's why it's easy for me to forget what I was,

(25:57):
what I was talking about.
And I'm like, I'm not going to forget it.
I'm not going to forget it.
And everything was relaxed.
Yeah.
So yeah, I mean, I feel completely.
Aligned clear, whatever.
Like whatever word best describes it, I feel.
Me.
And the, and it's doing that.

(26:18):
I would agree. I feel.
It's almost like more.
It's like, I feel so me and so strong. And so.
And then I also have this fear,
but they're not all co-mingled, right?
It feels like they're more separate than they have been previously.
But I do know.
This is interesting because I thought of this while you were talking.

(26:42):
Sometimes I can say something and I can feel in my body.
How true I believe that thing is.
Right.
So if I say.
I think it's totally possible to make a lot of money easily and
having fun the whole time.
I can feel where I believe that and it is not at a hundred percent.

(27:03):
Yeah.
And I think that's the belief that I'm growing right now every day.
It's like, no, it is possible.
You can love your life and you can make money and you can help people
and you can have all your friends and family.
You can have all of it. It's okay. Right.
Like it's okay to be happy.
And just telling myself that.

(27:25):
Over and over and over again, almost like soothing a child.
And maybe that is soothing my inner child. Like it's okay. Yep.
You can have it all. We're going to go get ice cream too.
Really.
Really soothing part of myself to just.
Treat it more like that. Right.
Like it's the whining kid in the back of the car.

(27:47):
And then your other friends.
Yeah, it's like, you know,
five.
You know, you help people that you can't really control with love,
but also with, like, all right.
Yeah. And that's where I mean, just,
just treating yourself right. Like having love for yourself is so
important.
You, like, you and Jack Cornfield, who.

(28:09):
You know, I,
from what I understand, like he went over to debatt or somewhere,
like lived as a Buddhist monk for.
2030 years.
about when that stuff comes up.
You know, you literally saying like,
thank you for keeping me safe.
I appreciate that, but I don't need it right now.
And when I heard that, I was like,
that is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

(28:32):
But you get to a point where you're like,
I'm willing to try something stupid, you know?
It'll only happen in my head.
So nobody will know I'm doing it.
Lovely.
So I tried it and it was weird
because I felt a relief in the anxiety attack I was having.
Yes. And then you get to stay in the vibration of gratitude.

(28:53):
Yeah.
Right. And that's where when you get into the flow, right?
It's being in those like higher vibrations of gratitude
and love and passion.
That's what the flow is.
And so you don't want to get out of that space.
And so if you stay in gratitude, you're like,
thank you for bringing this to me.
I don't need it.

(29:14):
And all situations, like we always talk about,
like it's how we respond, not how we react to the situation,
but how we respond to them.
You can say, OK, what I'm feeling is bad, right?
So I'm putting a negative connotation on it
and now I'm going to get upset.
I don't want to feel this.

(29:34):
Why am I feeling this way?
In fact, in Buddhism, they call it the second dart.
You know, the first is what you're feeling.
It's inevitable.
You are feeling that.
The second dart is the one that we hit ourselves with,
you know, where we get upset and we create even more
negativity inside because of that first dart.
Or you can come at it, like you said,

(29:55):
from a place of gratitude, like Jack Hornfield was saying,
like, I thank you.
I understand what you're trying to do.
And you're getting the result that you want.
And keeping yourself in a more loving and grateful place.
Yeah.
I love that.
And it also helps me realize I still

(30:18):
have the tendency to want to fix things or fix myself
and how I believe just like nobody wants to be fixed, right?
Nobody wants to be fixed.
That feels super icky.
I think sometimes it's the same with our feelings.
Like they don't want to be fixed, right?
The inner child doesn't want to be fixed.

(30:39):
So when you come out of that fixing position
and just let it be what it is, oh, here you are.
You're doing this.
Thank you.
OK.
Yeah.
Then it kind of calms down because it's like, oh,
you're not trying to fix me anymore.
Like I can relax a little bit.
I feel like that happens to the feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the dangers of turning everything

(31:00):
into a disorder.
I mean, it's clear that there are things that
can go wrong with the mind or with the brain.
But turning anger, turning sadness, anxiety,
like everything being a disorder, you see it as something's

(31:21):
wrong and now it needs to be fixed.
But how we are, like the meme that you had sent me,
how we're all star dust, but we're also poop particles too.
So calm down.
I love that.
But we're from the universe.
And the universe exists specifically

(31:42):
because of the imperfections in it.
So the imperfections in us are what make us different.
And sound the same as in a hole, right?
It makes us whole.
Yeah.
And the thing that moves us is thinking about it as imperfections.
Yeah.

(32:03):
That's a big one.
Yeah, I don't know how to not do it.
That's like one of those things that I feel is true inside.
Yes.
And now it's just trying to explore and investigate
ways to connect with that.
Yeah.
And I think what you just said and what's come up a couple times

(32:26):
is worth noting is you and I have both taken the time
to be able to recognize truth in our bodies, to know,
like to be self-aware enough to go, I can say this
and I feel it's true, right?
I feel truth from you, right?
And how important that is to cultivate

(32:48):
if you want to go on the personal growth and development
journey.
Like that's key.
And that's why you have to slow down
and you can't just stay in the hustle and really busy
all the time because you won't be able to know yourself
enough to be able to really navigate your feelings,
I think.
And that's, it's sucks doing that.

(33:10):
Like it was one of the things that surprised me.
And I think that kept me stuck for a while after I started
was realizing that the pain is going
to get a little bit worse before it gets better
because you're going to confront it.
Yeah.

(33:30):
You know?
And it reminds me like in my head, I see like this.
You're like in a scary movie, they close the medicine cabinet
and they see themselves in the mirror,
like this disgusting, like putrid version of themselves.
I feel like that's what it is.
It's staring into the face of what I see as my demons,

(33:51):
the worst part of me.
And really developing a relationship with them
because they're always going to be a part of me.
You know?
I have the capacity to go back to that place.
So it's having a relationship with them
instead of defeating them or banishing them

(34:14):
or like all this other stuff.
I mean, being alive is a spectrum.
But we have this idea of shutting off
everything beyond a certain point,
beyond like this neutral contentment,
all the negative stuff.
We need to shut it off because that means we're broken.
Yeah.

(34:34):
So what we're trying to do is live half a life.
And it's impossible.
Yeah.
I also want to say I think that this is a really good time
to talk about plant medicine or even other types of drugs
because for me, in a couple different directions,

(34:56):
being able to do mushrooms and face some of those darker
aspects and have to surrender and have
to continue to find self, I guess,
is so valuable and helpful in a journey.
And you practice it there and then you
know how to do it here in real life.

(35:16):
I feel like that gave me a practice run to learn
how to navigate stuff.
And I think it's really cool.
And I think drugs like MDMA have allowed
me to see the love part and the total acceptance part
and help burn those pathways in my brain

(35:38):
so that I know where the trail is.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
You know, I think the gift of drugs
is helping you see like, OK, this is the trail.
And you go, oh, OK, I get it.
And then you get to grow that direction.
Yep.
Yep.
Since I started with mushrooms, there's

(36:01):
been a constant narrative throughout all of my trips.
And it's the idea of flowing, acceptance and flowing
in that river that life is going to take us.
But that's complete surrender.
Complete surrender.
And that, you know, when you have been raised your whole life

(36:24):
to be in control of yourself and control of your life,
in this way, ABCDE, letting go of all that,
whether your outside life changes or not, you have to be.
I love this.
Glennon Doyle says this in one of her books.
She says, you have to be willing to burn it all to the ground.

(36:45):
Like you have to have that level of surrender for it to work.
And that gives me chills in my body when I say it, right?
Like I feel that.
It's huge.
Imagine what the world would look like, you know,
especially our country that has an incredible high rate

(37:09):
of people on mental health meds and therapists and stuff
like that.
But imagine if that was taught.
How to do that, you know, and there's not one way.
Like we all have to figure out our ways.
But there's, I truly believe there's these elements to it.

(37:29):
You know, belief, identity, perspective,
and they all kind of work together.
You know, but if we can learn how to develop those things
so that we can focus our mind and our energies
towards those things and not just, you know,
this daydreaming aspect of it, you know,

(37:50):
but taking the action to move through it, you know.
Imagine just what would happen.
I think pharmaceutical companies would start
going out of business, man.
And I think, hold on, let me back up.
Over the past couple months, as I have increased my self-love,

(38:14):
I've also noticed a huge increase in my hope for humanity.
And I don't know if they're connected,
but it's been interesting to me.
And I see so many people wanting a better world
and healing themselves and knowing that it starts with them
and passing along the message.
I'm going to heal me and then I'm going to help heal you and you.

(38:36):
And I just see that everywhere I look, I feel like now,
which is such a gift because I put boundaries around
where I get my news and this and that.
And it's a whole other conversation.
But, you know, the news is never going to report that stuff to us.
Right?
Like they operate off fear.

(38:56):
They're like a profit-making machine off fear.
So like it doesn't mean that it's not happening.
That's why it's so important to seek other sources.
And I just I've been loving that so much,
this hope for humanity and for what you're saying.
Maybe people will do this.

(39:17):
Maybe people will use more plant medicine.
Maybe people will really deeply heal.
And there will be another renaissance of sorts.
Yeah, I truly believe it's starting to happen.
You know, like I feel that optimism too.
I know even the VA, I believe they are going to start using MDMA for PTSD.

(39:41):
It's like, it's going to be amazing, you know.
And I can't for me, I started with cannabis, you know,
and I had to learn prior to because Sandy was completely against it.
And so I studied its history, how it affects us, how it works, the dangers of it.

(40:09):
I studied all of that for about two years.
And every once in a while, I would just talk to her about, you know,
and then finally she was like, all right, you just go ahead and try it.
You know, so she thought like it was going to do absolutely nothing, you know.
And then like a month later, she was telling me,

(40:31):
why don't you go in the garage and smoke, you know,
because I was angry, I was getting frustrated, whatever it is.
And the cool thing is, is like the smoke,
yeah, the smoking is going to come, you know, stuff like that,
but it's not going to make that go away.
You know, so that I would not only would I go out and smoke,
but I would take my iPad out there and I watch a documentary or documentary

(40:53):
or something in archaeology or the space or cosmos, whatever, you know,
something I get into and it the cannabis connects me with that feeling of wonder,
but then just makes it my world.
Yes.
And just the gratitude that.
So I would come back inside feeling amazing.
Yes.

(41:13):
I love that because it's like know your power sources,
like your battery packs and where you can plug in.
And then, yeah, use weed or something to make that even bigger.
And that's how you stay more in the vibration.
I've heard people say the more you love your life,
the more your life will be something to love, right?

(41:34):
That it's loving things that's opening that door.
So learning how to plug into that so that your feelings are in love
and off and your vibration is that I think is key.
Like that's what I mean when I tell people they need their own recipe.
Like what's your things?
How do you plug in to and make this work?

(41:59):
And you have to know that.
And I don't think a lot of people know that.
No.
Yeah.
And you're not going to find that out.
Living defensively.
No.
You know, because people pleaser, right?
Yeah, you know what?
I was actually thinking about this.
Tell me what you think.
So one of the things that they, one of the like little my pet peeves

(42:23):
is how this idea that being nice is a trauma response.
Now, and they always say like, OK, like, like people pleaser,
people pleaser, being so nice that, you know,
and that's that's the trauma response, right?
But I don't quite that with being nice.

(42:44):
So my question is this, is people pleasing actually disguised selfishness?
I think it's a way to get a need met, certainly.

(43:04):
So yeah, that was selfish, right?
Because.
So, for example, I used to have a lot of people pleasing tendencies.
And when I say people pleasing, I mean.
And I think this is part of being in an emotionally abusive marriage, right?

(43:28):
You learn to read their cues and then do or be who or what they want.
That's like what I call people pleasing, right?
That you're not doing things by your rhythms,
but you're trying to do something by someone else's rhythms.
And I did that because I thought that that was the way to be lovable,

(43:49):
like to mold myself around another person.
And so.
And take away the negative connotation of selfishness, too.
So I guess it allowed me to feel loved, right?
Even though it was an unhealthy way of love,
if it it was a working mechanism in my life.

(44:09):
Right, right.
And that's what I was thinking of, like when I did that,
I was doing it to achieve a certain thing to look.
Christian manipulation, right? In a way. Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm being manipulated.
You know, it is an abusive thing that creates that in somebody.
Like, you know, in your case, abusive marriage, but it's a way for you.

(44:33):
And it's a survival thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
And survival is selfish, you know, but again, take away the negative
sort of belief around that because you're you're not being able to do that.
You know, that's why people that put their own lives in danger
to save somebody else.
I mean, it's luckily there's a lot, but it's still kind of rare,

(44:56):
you know, because the instinctual drive is to save yourself.
Yeah.
And in that way, I started looking at like my my people pleasing as
more about myself.
It's more about making yourself feel like you're a person.
As more about myself, it's more about making myself feel better from not

(45:21):
feeling guilt for not doing something that somebody convinced me I had to do.
And I came with a lot of stuff where I had to understand that
this the belief system that I'm operating off of is not mine, but it was given to me.
And then change that belief system, which again is another big step
for myself, come to the realization that that people pleasing is not kindness,

(45:48):
but it's it's a selfishness on my part, but not, you know, and when I say that,
I'm not blaming myself for saying it's bad.
It's survive.
Yeah.
It's bringing my focus towards me.
Yeah.
I love your example because
this is actually a coaching technique, but it's an abrasive one.

(46:11):
So I don't ever use it, but it's just what you're saying.
If somebody presents you with a negative situation, I hate this person.
They're always doing this to me or this is the worst you say.
Like, what are you getting out of it?
Because you're getting something.
One of your needs is being met.
Something is in it for you.
And if you find that thing and replace it in a different way, you won't need this anymore.

(46:34):
But it's hard for a lot of people to hear that because like you said, it's
associate.
There's so many right, wrong, good, bad, all these blames and judgments that you can't
navigate it easily with another person, right?
Or even with yourself, right?
It's right.
Yeah.
You said that, like if I'm if I'm mad and you're like, okay, well, how is this

(46:55):
serving you?
That's true.
And we're talking.
Yeah.
I mean, but you can use that tool within your system.
But you can use that tool within yourself if you're strong enough within yourself to go,
okay, Mindy, you've had this fight with your husband four times now.
What are you, what are you getting out of this?
About what are you getting out of keeping your position so that this isn't getting resolved?

(47:20):
Right.
You getting out of like and really ask myself the hard questions so that I can move forward.
But that's hardcore personal development work.
It's not easy.
Yeah.
One of those things of like facing your own personal demons.
Oh, much so.
Yeah.
You're like, oh, shit, I do this because of this and like I am doing this.

(47:41):
Like, yeah.
Okay.
With that example is people pleasing just disguise selfishness.
Like let's let's just say I'm 100% wrong.
But because I'm able to give my own meaning to things, yeah, resonates with me.
Yes.
Okay.
And I'm like, all right, I don't want to do that.

(48:02):
I want to push my focus outward onto others.
You know, and when I when I talked about like even on some videos about,
you know, what I do with Sandy, I've been told like by quite a few comments
that I'm not taking care of myself.
This is a non healthy relationship.
You know, all this stuff.
And then when I respond to those, like I'm not saying I let her walk all over me.

(48:27):
Yeah.
So if she does something that frustrates me, I'll tell her that that pissed me off.
But I won't yell and scream at you know, but other than that, if she wants me to hang a dish
towel up when I'm done doing dishes, I'll hang it up instead of just what I normally did was
just throw it on the counter because I'm me.
I'm like, all right, I'm done.
Drive my hands off.

(48:49):
Done.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's that's just me putting her her need first because I don't want to be white.
I want to be with her.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
One of the things I love that my husband and I do is kind of talk about our feelings in the third

(49:10):
person.
So like this is really silly, but I have this tiny blanket that I use all the time on the couch
and he folded it up and put it away the other day and like he left other shit out and I'm like,
why'd you do why'd you put my blanket away?
See, this is like so silly, but he had whatever his reason was.

(49:33):
And then I just say like, my feelings are telling me that they're hurt right now and to be mad at
you and like, I need a minute.
Like, I realize this is ridiculous, but my feelings were what they were.
I got triggered for some reason.
It was a dumb ass reason and it was nice just to be able to say like, I'm triggered.
Like my feelings are being weird right now.

(49:55):
Let's give them a minute and acknowledge what was happening, but in such a way that it
we're both on the same team still.
Right.
Because because because what what we normally do is instead of acknowledging, okay,
this is the way I feel like you're my feelings are kind of out of my control.

(50:19):
They're just going to come, but you didn't respond to it.
You just acknowledged it and then allowed the feeling to take its course,
just went with the flow of it.
Yeah.
Because ultimately I have a great marriage, a husband that loves me and arguing about a blanket
is stupid, but that's what my feelings wanted me to do.
Right.
My feelings wanted me to argue about the blanket, but you can't live from that place.

(50:44):
Right.
You have to go like, no.
And then you choose a path that's going to be less conflict.
Yeah.
I mean, as much as I've learned to love my emotions and I think they're such an incredibly
powerful place to live from your emotions, your feelings can definitely skew the narrative in your

(51:07):
head and tell you a meaning for something that is so far away from the truth.
Yeah.
So being able to think about it from a higher place is so important.
Yeah.
Your feelings are one piece of information.
Right.
You have feelings.

(51:27):
You have your thoughts.
You have your intuition.
Right.
You have all these things.
Feelings are just one piece of information and being able to operate in that truth has
been life changing for me.
And now even when I interact with other people sometimes I'm like, oh, you're just totally
operating from your feelings.
I get it.
Like you don't know yet that you don't have to do that.

(51:48):
I did that once upon a time too.
I just did whatever my feelings told me to do.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's natural.
I mean, like you can always talk about like these feelings are coming up, you know, our
feelings generate in older parts of the brain like that fear.
So it's survival.
It's instinctual.
So many times I don't know the times it takes, but it takes an experience to be like processed

(52:15):
and get to the fear center quicker than it does to get to the prefrontal cortex.
So by the time we're able to logically think through a situation, we're already reacting.
Yeah.
So it's all about training ourselves to slow that process down and not react when our feelings
coming from that fear center and that survival instinct kicks in and tells us that because

(52:40):
your husband folded your blanket and put it away, that means he now hates you.
Because like that's kind of like, I know that always would be where I went with Sandy.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I can't take up space in this house, right?
Like I'm not static bullshit.
Yeah.
You always blame everything on me.

(53:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And now I just see that stuff as being hilarious.
Like it's because it's so in the game, which is fine, right?
Sometimes we get lost in the game, but that's the game playing out, right?

(53:22):
Yeah.
And that's like, that's the hope I have is that I feel that there's an understanding
that's going around that the way that we live life is a game.
And it's a game that other people are playing and we're just part of the pieces.
Yep.
And then people are really beginning, it seems to move more towards living,

(53:48):
you know, experiencing life.
And that's where joy and contentment and peace is found.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah. And when there's more joy, peace and contentment in a person's life,
the easier and more compassionate they're going to be on the people around them.
Yeah.
Because healthier.

(54:09):
That's why you can't.
That's why I always think it's funny.
Like for me, I am such a, I guess, socialist.
I'm like, I'll give up half my paycheck to know that like people everywhere have stuff.
Like to me, I don't care.
I just want people well.
I'd pay tons of taxes.
But I mean, more than that, nowadays we have this reality that you could tax corporations,

(54:29):
right, as technology comes up and everybody could have a universal basic income.
And then that renaissance we spoke of before, you detach value from this doing drudgery of a job
and you put value towards art and advancement and painting and you see it totally another renaissance.

(54:49):
I think that's possible.
Yeah.
That's what my heart's pulling for.
That's what I want to see for humanity.
And then the pieces are there just like the pieces are there for the scenario.
Right?
Imagine if we, if we could, I mean, like, plan it wide, give up all these dumbass constructs

(55:14):
that have been made of borders and stuff like, I mean, during colonialism, I mean,
that's what drew everything like, look at, you know, even before that, like the Roman,
all the empire building and stuff just conquering as much land because that's mine, you know, but
I think we're at a place like where we can just give all that up and just cooperate.

(55:35):
Imagine what we could do.
Like as it says, a species.
And people say, oh, man's always been greedy or oh, it's always been this way.
Like they think that that kind of changes not reason.
But when you look at big, long evolution and you're like, oh, we didn't have tools.

(55:56):
Then we started using tools.
Then we learned how to communicate, right?
Like huge leaps in consciousness.
When you look at it in that scale, you're like, oh, well, of course someday humans will become
more conscious creatures than they are now and operate in new ways with new tools.
That's what we're talking about is, you know, science being able to prove that your thoughts

(56:19):
impact your body and like living within these truths and building a new world based on those truths.
Yeah.
On the show, Seth McFarland's show, Orville, they talked about, I thought it was going to be
like sort of a parody of Star Trek, but it's not.
It's a lot more funnier, but it's a pretty cool show, kind of like a Star Trek.

(56:45):
But they talked about how they got to this place and they were explaining how
the world kind of banded together and people basically didn't have to work anymore.
There was enough of everything for everybody just to survive.
And so when people would do stuff, they wouldn't work for the necessity of money.

(57:11):
They would work because it was their passion.
So everybody that's out on the Starships exploring and stuff like that, they're there for their passion,
you know, not for anything else.
And I really believe that we can have that a society like that and even Stephen Greer,
who did the unacknowledged movie, like the UFOs and stuff like he talks about,

(57:35):
he doesn't believe that there's an advanced civilization that's out there that is looking
to destroy us because in order to become an advanced civilization, you eventually have
to evolve to that point of complete cooperation.
Yeah.
You know, because look at how divided we are right now, where I do believe we are moving

(57:57):
that way about how divided we are right now and the state of politics, environment,
like I mean, quality of life.
But it's kind of like we were saying last time that like, you know, in the sound waves of life,
like the point is like the greatest convex is the next point is the greatest concave, right?

(58:20):
And so even though things are dark right now, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's not
the pain point necessary to open things up in a new direction because suffering
in pain points are often what opens the next wave of personal development, wave of evolution,
right?
And whether you're talking big or small, that's one of the reasons why it's important to have suffering, right?

(58:47):
Yeah, it sucks, but I mean, no growth comes without pain.
Yeah.
Sort of like a foundational aspect of growth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I feel pretty good about our conversation.
I feel really good about where we're both going individually and where the world's going,

(59:13):
where the podcast's going, it's really good stuff.
And I feel there's like a different energy too about our conversations and stuff.
It's very cool.
Yeah, it's interesting how the feeling of shared space and meditation and drugs,

(59:36):
to me, there gets to be like this like gooey dense feeling.
Yeah.
I don't know how else to describe it, but when I feel in the flow, everything feels kind of like
gooey and dense around me.
And I love that feeling.
Yeah, I'm feeling that so right now, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(59:56):
And it's kind of almost like deja vu in a way like sort of that like,
like just it feels so good and so rich.
And yeah, this is the place I want to live in all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like it's like getting a hug from the universe.
And what I think is that possible to live in this space?

(01:00:18):
Like, you know, 100% of the time is that unreasonable?
I mean, of course there's hardships and suffering and stuff, but I don't know.
I'm curious about this new wave of, I guess, being the watcher that I've been experiencing
lately.

(01:00:40):
Maybe that's maybe that's what enlightenment is, you know, getting to the point where
you're you're so open that you even you see suffering as part of the master plan of all life.
Yeah.
And in that way, it's a blessing in your life.
Yeah.
That's not something I want to be like tried with though, man.

(01:01:03):
Oh, that is one thing I like about I love reincarnation.
I don't believe it, but I pretend to believe it because I love it so much.
I love the way it makes me feel.
I'm not 100% believe there yet.
Maybe I'll be a believer someday.
But the idea that in other lives, I've played the role of the sufferer and now I play this

(01:01:26):
role and now you play this role and we're all playing all the roles in different timescapes
of this illusion that I love that.
That makes me feel really good.
That belief system.
I don't know if it's true, but I like it.
Yeah.
You know, there's some big scale of this that we don't understand.

(01:01:48):
And in that scale of things, I've been homeless and I've been tortured and I've also been the
torturer and I've been the bully and I've been this and I've been that and I've played all the roles.
Because it's just consciousness coming into human form to see itself in this big dance.

(01:02:08):
Like I fucking love that idea.
I don't know how to believe it though.
I don't know why I just I love it, but something keeps me from like committing my belief to it.
And that's that.
See that to me is a very, very interesting thing because
the beliefs don't have to be true.

(01:02:29):
They don't even have to be able to be proven true.
They just have to align with you.
Yeah.
So I have desire and love and openness towards this belief.
And I also have a sliver of doubt or cynicism, right?
Like something else is happening in me that is not allowing me to say this is the way it is.

(01:02:54):
This is the way I believe it is.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure exactly what that is right now.
I used to be so scared of dying.
Ironically, like, I mean, all through my decades in Christianity, I was always so afraid of dying.
But now that I've taken on this new belief of when we die, it's more of a path to a different

(01:03:25):
dimensional state, a dimensional state that we already came from.
And I feel that same thing.
Like when I say that, I'm like, oh, shut up, dude.
You know, but I'm like, no, I love that, though.
I love that idea that the me who's like dying,
the higher version of self is going to go on.

(01:03:46):
I'm going to take these memories and continue to exist in a different form.
That is so comforting.
And then when I think about dying or something like that, it's more of a,
I still don't want to like rush into it, you know what I mean?
But I'm over here.
Fear isn't there.
Yeah.

(01:04:07):
And there's no way I can prove this.
Right.
But believing it makes your life better now and your experience of being in the moment better now.
Yes.
And what I don't have.
But now, I mean, really, you don't know anything for sure besides this.
I think that's what's powerful about beliefs.

(01:04:28):
Like if you're really living in the present moment, there is no other moment.
There is nothing else.
So like you're saying, it doesn't matter if it's true or not.
Because that's a future idea or an other, right?
Yeah.
It'll be proven right or wrong at some point.
You know, like we'll all have that point where our ideas of the afterlife will be proven right or wrong.

(01:04:52):
But for this moment now, I'm going to sit in this belief and it gives me peace.
Yeah.
Do you know the band, the Avid Brothers?
No.
I'm going to send you a link to this song.
It's so beautiful.
And some of the words are like, when my body finally sets me free, right?

(01:05:15):
Like this idea like I'm in this body and when it finally sets me free, will I be ready?
It's the line of the song.
It's just a really beautiful song about death and like feeling you're describing where you're like
kind of greeting an old friend, right?
And you're like, let's go to the next dimension.
Let's go to the next play, whatever it is, right?

(01:05:38):
But there's a welcoming home almost of it.
That's pretty cool.
I like that.
Yeah.
But it's a weird feeling because I still have that.
Like I don't want to experience that.
That was the one thing I loved about, you know, being a Christian.

(01:05:58):
Like, I mean, my whole desire was to be raptured.
So I would never have to die.
Yes.
That'd be like, man, see, then I get lucky.
I wouldn't have to go through whatever that is, whatever process that is because it looks so horrible.

(01:06:18):
I'll reveal a judgment of my own.
This is a story made up in my head.
I have no idea if it's true.
But I made up that story about my dad because my dad talks a lot about the rapture.
He's still very heavily Christian.
And every time he talks about it to me, I feel like you're avoiding death, right?

(01:06:44):
You're avoiding this thing that's coming towards you.
Like when you get to, you know, be our parents age, like,
you're at the doorstep, so you better be pretty fucking comfortable with the idea.
And I don't see that he's done that work.

(01:07:05):
This is all my judgment.
Maybe he has, right?
Please, anybody listening know that this, I'm telling you more about me than I am about my dad, right?
This is my judgment.
And I feel afraid that when things get down to it, he's not going to be able to do that.
Get down to it. He's not going to be ready.
And I want him to be ready and I want to be there with him.

(01:07:27):
And there's this beautiful relationship that I want to have with my dad going into his final chapter
that he's not ready to talk about because he doesn't want to admit that his final chapter is coming.
Right? And it's kind of heartbreaking to me.
And that's, this is the story I made about my heartbreak, right?

(01:07:48):
Who knows what the truth is?
Who knows what he thinks?
But, yeah, it's been interesting to live to live in, right?
Like, I'm not like a human experience like, huh, okay.
Some people are close to their parents.
Some people aren't.
Some people try this.
Some people, right?
We all have these desires and lives and it's rich.

(01:08:09):
Like each experience can be really, really rich.
Oh my God. Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially those ones that you don't realize what they are until like,
you know, the time goes by and you're like, oh my God.
Yep. Yep.
Well, speaking of that, I should go because I'm going on a little road trip last night.

(01:08:34):
You know, my husband and I are homebodies.
We don't go out to dinner.
We don't go places.
We just love being home.
We both love watching sports.
We're introverts.
And yesterday we were talking about how much fun we had the last time we were at a casino
and right playing picao poker.
And then my husband's like, I bet we could get some rooms comp.

(01:08:55):
Do you want me to call?
And I was like, sure.
Then all of a sudden we're going to Reno today.
So yeah.
So I'm very excited.
So after this, I'm going to go pack the car.
And then my husband and I, I feel like I really love, you know, big, disparate things.

(01:09:15):
So I love backpacking and not showering for two weeks and walking 200 miles.
And I love being in a casino for three days and not leaving their property and watching sports
and slot machines.
And like both of them are delicious aspects of my life.
Now I can be where if you did this one too much, it could become unhealthy.

(01:09:39):
But being able to soak at this one, if you just, right?
You know, so it's about balance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so freaking awesome, man.
That is so cool.
Hopefully I'll win a ton of money.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Win enough, dude.
And then me and Sandy will move out your way and we'll build a studio.

(01:10:01):
Okay.
Sounds good.
It's a couple of mil.
That's all you need.
All right.
Thank you, Keith, for a really great show.
Yeah.
This was fun, man.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Everybody for joining us and we will see you next week.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We are so grateful for all of our listeners.

(01:10:25):
Please support us in doing what we love.
It's as simple as hitting that like or subscribe button.
It would really mean a lot to us.
Thanks, guys, and we'll see you next week.

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Chasing Thoughts | S03 E04 - The Arena of Dreams: Navigating Fear and Growth

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Chasing Thoughts | S03 E04 - The Arena of Dreams: Navigating Fear and Growth