September 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Dr. Michelle Peticolas, international bestselling author and award-winning filmmaker, reveals why some people stay stuck in grief for decades while others heal naturally. Discover how unprocessed emotions literally lodge in your cellular memory and learn the revolutionary SERVE framework that transforms grief from suffering into authentic self-discovery.
What You'll Learn
- The physiological difference between normal grief and complex grief
- Why traditional therapy often fails for long-term grievers
- How childhood survival patterns create people-pleasing behaviors that block authentic healing
- The SERVE framework: a step-by-step system for releasing trapped emotions
- Real transformation stories, including a client who healed from 20 years of grief in months
- Signs that indicate you may be experiencing complex grief
Key Takeaways
Understanding Grief as Physiological Grief isn't just emotional—it's a whole-body experience that triggers biological survival responses. When unexpressed, these emotions literally lodge in your cells and emerge at unexpected times through triggers.
The People-Pleasing Pattern Many who struggle with complex grief developed people-pleasing survival mechanisms in childhood. These patterns, formed to maintain conditional love, prevent authentic self-expression and proper emotional processing.
The SERVE Framework
- S - Surrender to feelings and emotions (with proper support)
- E - Engage with supportive community (like elephants protecting their grieving)
- R - Reframe your story about the loss
- V - Vision for who you want to become
- E - Express your authentic self in the world
Instead of seeing grief as something to overcome, honor it as a testament to love. Use grief as fuel for awakening to your authentic self and life purpose.
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Rose Wippich bridges ancient wisdom and modern life, teaching people how to tap into their natural healing abilities. As an Energy Alchemist, she guides women towards vibrant health and helps them rewrite limiting narratives around aging and step into their sovereign power. Discover how to protect your energy, honor your boundaries, and reconnect with your true desires. Your journey to energetic sovereignty starts here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rose (00:12):
Welcome to Chat Off The Mat.
I'm your, host, Rose Wippichand today we're diving deep into
the world of complex grief withinternational bestselling
author and award-winningfilmmaker, Dr Michelle Peticolas
.
Bestselling author andaward-winning filmmaker, Dr
Michelle Peticolas If you'veever felt stuck in patterns of
sadness that traditional griefwork hasn't resolved, or if your
major life losses have thrownyou off track from your dreams,
(00:35):
this episode is for you.
Dr Michelle has guidedcountless women and men to not
just heal from loss, but totransform that grief into the
catalyst for reclaiming theirauthentic brilliance and purpose
.
Today, she'll share thesurprisingly simple techniques
that can help you make peacewith your past and reignite your
passion for life.
Welcome, dr Michelle.
(00:57):
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you for asking me tojoin you.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
So the first thing I want toask you is how do you define
loss?
Dr. Michelle (01:10):
Loss is more of a personal experience of how we
identify something, because weprobably lose things all the
time.
You know we could lose a pen ora cell phone.
We probably lose things all thetime you know we could lose a
pen or a cell phone.
And when it comes to grief orto significant loss, it has more
(01:32):
to do with relationships.
Human beings are social animals.
We're literally wired to bondwith each other and so when a
significant bond is broken,that's when the experience of
loss is felt at a deep corelevel and it also triggers
(01:54):
natural biological survivalresponse in you.
So grief is not just a mentalthing, it's a whole
physiological thing.
So that's how I define loss.
Loss is the just a mental thing, it's a whole physiological
thing.
So that's how I define loss.
Loss is the breaking of a bondand even if you think about
things like losing a job ormoving across country to a new
(02:17):
place, it's all about bonds,it's all about connections to
people, and it's reallyimportant because as a social
animal, we actually survivebetter in community.
But sometimes you lose yourselfvery early because in order to
survive as little children, wehave to adapt to the environment
(02:42):
, we have to adapt to ourparents, because we are totally
dependent on them for oursurvival.
And if we got niceunconditional love and we could
be ourselves, it's great.
But oftentimes love isconditional.
It is based on you being a goodgirl or behaving appropriately,
and it can be removed or theremay be distancing.
(03:06):
And when you don't have thatsense of security that love is
always going to be there for you, you develop patterns and those
are not really who you are,they're just survival patterns.
But they become so ingrainedthat we don't realize it, and so
most of our life is a processof trying to break those
(03:27):
patterns and get back to who wereally are.
Rose (03:30):
Talk a little bit about now your background, what you do
and your credentials and allthe things about Dr Michelle,
and then we'll move a little bitmore into some of the work that
you do in helping people.
Dr. Michelle (03:44):
I was really, really good in school.
That was one of my survivalresponses because I didn't
really bond with my mother andmy father.
When I was two years old, hewas transferred to Japan and I
was separated from him at a verycritical age in my life, a
critical for everybody.
(04:05):
Those first three to five yearsare really essential.
So I found that if I waslistened and understood what
other people wanted and gave itto them, I would get approval, I
would get attention, I wouldget positive feedback.
(04:26):
So I got really good in schooland it was wonderful and it
worked really well NationalHonor, society, phi Beta Kappa
and then the ultimate inlovability, the PhD.
But I was still afraid of myemotions.
So instead of engaging herbecause I knew nothing, I took
(04:52):
it back.
I said we don't need to dealwith this right now and I shut
her down.
And that was one of the biggestregrets I ever had, because
that was a moment when I couldhave finally really bonded with
her and connected and I didn't.
But it woke me up because Ithought, well, if she had
(05:14):
regrets about not finishing thisone project, where did that
leave me?
This people pleaser, who didn'teven know her favorite color
because I was so intent onpleasing other people and that's
really changed me.
And so the first thing I did wasI decided to make a documentary
(05:37):
on death because I said, wow,this stuff is powerful.
And in the process of makingthe documentary I joined hospice
and eventually did hospicesupport groups and then segued
into having my own coachingbusiness around grief and loss.
But the more I work on it, themore I realize that it's bigger
(06:01):
than that.
It's bigger than that, in fact.
When I made the film, myobjective was to help wake
people up to this glorious butall too short life that we have
and to relive it, to really liveit authentically and as
yourself, and to fulfill who youare.
So that's also the work that Ido in grief is that I help
(06:26):
people use their grief to wakethem up and to heal and to heal.
Rose (06:33):
Yes, through your creative process, you were able to heal
yourself, because I just sensedthat there was so much that you
needed to heal because of thisjourney that you've had.
And I can relate because I wasalso a people pleaser and didn't
get that validation and loveand approval and all that from
my mom and my mom wound uppassing away when she was 49 and
(06:55):
I was 26.
And there was still a lot ofyeah.
Dr. Michelle (07:00):
That's so early.
Rose (07:02):
It's so early and we didn't have a really close
communicative relationship.
We were both very closed off.
So I say that I learned tocommunicate with her since she's
crossed over.
Oh, great, yeah, that'swonderful Working on the wounds,
my personal wounds, to help meheal and heal our relationship.
(07:23):
It's hard to process.
I don't know if we ever doprocess it.
Dr. Michelle (07:28):
And remember I said in the beginning how loss
had to be was partly thisphysiological experience, this
grief.
So when I was growing up wewere not taught to express our
grief.
We were taught to hide it, toshut it down, to get over it.
(07:48):
And it doesn't go away.
It literally lodges itself inthe cells in your body and it
pops up at weird times when youget triggered Because we don't
really allow it to release.
But it is possible.
I had a client I know you weregoing to talk about the work I
(08:10):
do, so I had a client who cameto me and she had been grieving
the loss of her husband for 20years 20 years, I mean tears
rolling down her cheeks and shehad seen psychiatrists and
psychologists and therapists andnobody was helping her.
What I did was teach her how togrieve, was how to finally allow
(08:35):
herself to release the emotions.
And that's where I also learnedthat a lot of it relates back
to that early childhood ofexperience.
And boy did she have a lot ofloss.
Her father left her mother andher sister when she was very
(08:56):
young because her motherhappened to be a party girl and
liked to go out and mess around.
So she then was taken care ofby her grandmother, and then her
grandmother died.
And then she meets the hero ofher life, her husband, and she's
like, oh, finally I've got whatI need right.
(09:18):
And then he dies young.
Oh wow, three losses.
And now she has a problembecause her son, her adult son,
looks exactly like her husband.
So every time she sees him, shecried.
It was destroying theirrelationship.
So she came to me and within avery short amount of time of
(09:40):
finally allowing that emotionalenergy that's like number one
step.
Number one in grieving is to beable to allow your emotions.
But some people are afraid ofthat because they're afraid
they're going to get trapped init and they'll never stop crying
.
Rose (09:58):
So you're able to help people who have been grieving
for a long time or maybe nothave even thought about grieving
for a long time, really unleashthose deep cellular emotions.
Dr. Michelle (10:11):
Yes.
So what happens is that we havedeveloped behavior in childhood
like I talked about, thatpeople-pleasing or lack of
confidence, or getting into—there are a whole slew of things
that we develop to survive butit holds us back from being our
authentic self, from being whowe're meant to be.
(10:31):
Now, the reason why I work withpeople around grief and loss is
that often it's when we comeface to face with death that we
get that mirror reflected in ourface about who we are.
We start to think about our owndeath, and so it's an
opportunity to use the energy ofgrief to propel us towards who
(10:56):
we are, and that's what I do inthe work.
That I do is use that as a fuelto motivate people, because
people mostly they don't doanything if it's just okay,
right, do people?
Not?
Very often do they go out oftheir way and sign up with with
a coach and and work onthemselves no, we think we can
(11:17):
handle it all.
Rose (11:18):
and then it manifests, like you said.
It comes out somehow and rageor anger or physical
manifestation of that emotion,and and that happens, and then
we're stuck trying to deal withthat and we continue to repress
those emotions.
Dr. Michelle (11:32):
So the reason why I started working on myself I
mean, besides the spiritual work, which was not enough was when
I met my current husband.
Husband and I started to seethe patterns that I had
developed that were going todestroy our relationship and I
said, no, I'm not doing thatthis time, I'm going to get the
(11:55):
help I need and I did you make adistinction between normal
grief and complex grief.
Rose (12:02):
Can youtalk about
Dr. Michelle (12:04):
that That is about having the breaking of a
significant bond, or maybe youknow there are different levels
of grief and it's reallypersonal what's important.
I've had people in whichgrandparents were the big
relationship, so it's theclosest, the close bonds that
(12:25):
cause the most grief.
But that doesn't mean that youshouldn't grieve other losses.
I encourage people to do thatbecause you know you sort of say
, oh well, that was just afriend or the family or whatever
.
But no, you actually need togrieve all the griefs and so
some of those are normal grief.
(12:47):
You know you've lost a friendand you feel the grief and you
feel the disconnection and youallow that.
And some people have grown upand they have healthy
relationships and then they losesomebody, have healthy
relationships and then they losesomebody and they can get over
the grief because through thenormal avenues of grief groups
(13:10):
and but complex grief and a lotmost of my clients have had
complex grief.
That came to me because therewas something in the past that
was never healed and wasreverberating throughout their
life.
And it's so.
(13:32):
I'm a spiritual person and Ibelieve that the spirit is
trying to wake us up to who weare and what we're meant to do,
and so I feel like, if you don'tget it on your own, the spirit
will send you little experimentsor experiences that will wake
you up and change you.
I was really clueless for along time and I kept on just
(13:57):
adjusting rather than realizingthat the universe was saying
wake up, this is not going towork.
You need to be yourself.
Rose (14:05):
What are some of the ways you think that spirit does this,
that nudges people in thosedirections, or to wake up.
Dr. Michelle (14:12):
Okay, so the first thing that happened in my
experience, and you don't mindme telling my story right.
Rose (14:21):
Not at all.
Your stories are what makes itinteresting, exactly.
Dr. Michelle (14:28):
So I went to graduate school, oh okay, and I
was working on my PhD and I gotmy first teaching job and up
until that time, pleasing peopleteachers was easy.
You know, you had each teacherand you would please them.
Now I was a teacher myself andI had to please all these
(14:50):
students that had differentrequirements, and I had to
please the administration and Ihad to please my chairman of my
department.
You know there's that sayingyou can please all the people
some of the time and not all thepeople, not all the people all
the time Right and I couldn't,and, and I lost that job after
(15:15):
two years and I was devastated.
So I thought I was not goodenough and so, in a way, spirit
was probably got me fired andthen got my husband to leave me.
And then I had an experiencewith my spiritual teacher that
(15:36):
started to really wake me up.
This is another story.
So I was trying to please him.
I traded my husband, I tradedmy boss, I traded my father for
my spiritual teacher and dideverything I could imagine to
please him.
And I think he was set onbreaking me of that habit of
(15:57):
pleasing.
He was a shamanic drummer and hehad these dance shows with all
these women dancing probablyvery politically incorrect now,
but I would videotape.
He took the video away Okay, noproblem, I will be a dancer.
So I tried really hard to be adancer and it was clear that his
(16:18):
highest dancers got the most ofhis juice.
So I'm working, and working,and working.
And finally one time in NewYork he's doing a dance show and
he specifically asks me to bethere and I get excited and I'm
supposed to be a dancer, thevideotaper.
So I go and I ask him should Idance?
(16:39):
And he kind of shrugged andsays you could dance, but first
I have to videotape.
So I'm out there for 90 minutesin this cold auditorium in the
wintertime in a belly dancecostume.
But the thing is that this manwas spiritual in a way you could
not imagine.
So everything he did worked inthat direction.
(17:01):
So anyway, finally, I'm likerealize when he's when the same
dancers are getting up for thesecond or third time, second
time, that he's forgotten me.
He has forgotten he's in hisdance show.
He's forgotten.
So I start started the tears,they're just rolled down my
cheeks and he must have sensed.
(17:22):
I mean, he was that kind of aperson he sensed.
So he sends somebody out toreplace me on the camera and I
go up there.
I couldn't dance, I was sofrozen, I was so humiliated, I
was so angry, so I didn't danceand he just put the rest of the
dancers out there.
But it woke me up.
(17:44):
I made the decision that daythat I would never let anybody
judge my dancing, that I woulddance for myself.
And that is the first steptowards authenticity, is when
you do stuff because and youlearn to love yourself, to feel
(18:08):
in yourself what you need.
And that was huge.
That was a big, bigbreakthrough.
Your mistakes are probably yourbiggest teachers in terms of
finding out.
What you need to learn, andthat's what all the spiritual
traditions tell you, is that notto beat yourself up for the
(18:29):
mistake, but to say, okay, whatdo I need to learn from this?
Rose (18:33):
You created a framework, so it's SERVE S-E-R-V-E.
Yes, it provides a system forworking through complex grief.
Can you walk us through thesteps involved?
Dr. Michelle (18:44):
in that Sure, absolutely and also how you came
up with that.
Well, I came up with it a whileback because, you know, people
always kind of find a frameworkto help people to understand,
and so serve is an easy word toremember, but in this case,
(19:09):
serve means not that you serveother people, which of course is
people pleaser I was doing allmy life but to let the grief
serve you.
So the first and it does, if youfollow these steps, you utilize
the grief to propel you forward.
So the first one is the S,which is surrender.
(19:31):
So you have to surrender to thefeelings and the emotions and
of course, there's a lot of.
You know rules around that ofhow to do it and when to do it
so that you support yourselfinstead of being humiliated,
right?
So the next one is to engage.
One of the most importantthings that people need to do
(19:55):
after they've had a significantloss is to rally the troops
around to get support from otherpeople.
This is a wild story, butelephants also grieve, and when
an elephant loses a mom, or themom loses a baby, the elephants
(20:18):
all surround that grievingelephant and stay there for
maybe a day or two protectingthat elephant, and then the lead
elephant, the mama queenelephant, nudges the wounded
grieving elephant and gets themmoving again.
So we need people.
(20:40):
We're we're social beings, andwhen you've lost that
significant, that's the biggestloss.
Of course, humans are complexand they're like well, I don't
want anybody, but the personI've lost right.
Rose (20:52):
They isolate themselves but the body.
Dr. Michelle (20:55):
The body needs the contact, and so you have to do
it anyway for your body, becauseyour body needs it, needs the
hugs, needs the touching, needssomebody to listen to you.
So that's the first D.
Then the R is reframe.
(21:18):
So oftentimes we have storiesaround the loss what did I do
wrong?
They shouldn't have left me.
I'm never going to be happyagain.
So we have to change.
We have to change that story,we have to reframe it, and I
have a very, very elaborateprocess of helping people
(21:40):
literally rewrite the story oftheir lives so that they see the
loss as part of that trajectory, of where they're going.
And then the next E, the nextis V, and that's vision.
Okay, now, where are we goingbased on the new story?
What's the happy ending?
(22:01):
Where are we headed towards?
Who do you really want to be?
And then, finally, once youhave that vision, you have to
bring that into being in thisworld.
And that's the last E, which isto express world.
Rose (22:22):
And that's the last E, which is to express you know,
children are the victims of alot of grief also or loss, I
should say and then experiencinggrief.
How can a mom or a woman who'snavigating the loss of, let's
say, a husband, also help thechild?
That's a really complexsituation, that's a difficult
thing.
Dr. Michelle (22:37):
Children are much better at handling grief if you
are honest with them and you andshare what you're going through
.
But reassuring them that you'restill going to be there for
them I mean, because that's theother thing is oh my gosh, I've
lost my father.
Oh my gosh, I've lost my mother.
And will you be there or am I?
You know, am I on my own Right?
(22:59):
But it's important for moms toteach their children how to
grieve and they will watch theirmother and how she handles it
and she's strong and holds alltheir emotions in there.
They're going to think that'sthe way they need to do.
They need to do it.
So one of the things that Iheard while I was making my
films that I thought wasdelightful was doing something
(23:22):
creative with your childrenaround the loss In one case,
where, if people are gettingcremated, you get those
cardboard cartons or cardboardcartons, coffins and decorate it
, you know, and get the kidsinvolved, and so you're having
the children part of theexperience and part of the
(23:45):
healing, as opposed to put in aseparate room and pretend that
nothing's going on and talkabout it.
Rose (23:53):
You know, talk about the good times and and the feelings
yeah, you know I, losing apartner is really hard and when
you have children it's hardbecause you need to process your
own grief and sometimes never,women never really process it
effectively and then it affectstheir children, like we were
(24:13):
just talking, where they don'twant their children to even move
away and they keep them closeRight and isolated Right, and
it's not healthy.
Dr. Michelle (24:25):
No, no, and that goes back to that first E of
engaging with other people, notputting it all on your children
to be to keep you happy, right.
Or to keep you yes, to have themreplace the loss no, you really
(24:45):
.
And that's why it would be good, if you're in that situation,
to get counseling so that nowyou have somebody that will help
you along.
So the process that I did itwas actually called the process
was to go back into the earlychildhood experience and to
actually go back and look atyour parents' lives when they
(25:08):
were children, and that was justso illuminating.
Suddenly I had huge compassionfor my mother and my father.
When you get this perspective,you can start taking that
towards everybody you have arelationship with.
Rose (25:25):
So even your partner.
Dr. Michelle (25:28):
you know they have a history, and how does that
show up?
Instead of taking it personally, oftentimes the stuff is just
their biography.
Rose (25:39):
And then also understanding what happened and
try not to be that way with yourkids.
That was my thing, yes.
Dr. Michelle (25:47):
Well, it's very brave to decide to have children
and to take that on and to bethat influential, but guess what
?
They are their own spiritualbeing, having their own human
adventure.
Yes, they are.
Rose (26:01):
You're right, absolutely For listeners who suspect that
they may be experiencing complexgrief.
What are some of the signs?
Let's talk about someone'sexperiencing complex grief.
Someone passed away a long timeago, even recently.
What are some of the signalsthat they need to really be
aware of, to say, oh my gosh, Ireally need help.
Dr. Michelle (26:24):
Well, going on for a long time is one of the signs
is that you just aren't able toget over it and it's
interfering with your lifebecause you don't feel engaged
in life, that you're notinterested, maybe you're a
little despairing, you have nohope.
Those are all signs that youaren't able to move forward.
(26:45):
Some people so there are somedifferent responses to it Some
people enshrine the loss, like,if you remember the Dickens book
Great Expectations, ladyHaversham, the woman who was
dressed in the bridal gown Right, the woman who was dressed in
(27:11):
the bridal gown and had thetable all laid out with little
animals running on the table,because she enshrined it.
And people do that.
And actually when I first gotinto hospice partner law support
groups the group that Iinherited the women there had
been there for three years andthey had all enshrined their
husbands and they talked andthey had enshrined the
(27:33):
experience of being widows andindulged in that and that's a
choice and if that works for you, that's fine.
That doesn't work for me and sothey pretty much dropped out of
the group I had because I was.
My focus was on helping peoplebecome authentic and to use this
(27:53):
as an opportunity for rebirth.
Rose (27:56):
Yeah, rebirth.
I love that People hold on tothings too.
I know we're still talkingabout that.
Things that I realized too iswomen or men.
They hold on to things thattheir spouse had and they just
keep it around as a reminder andyou know, those are just things
like we're talking like clothesand shoes and things like that.
(28:20):
I'm not talking about pictures,so that's another thing, you
know just holding on to thoseforever and ever and ever.
And it's a very energetic, youknow, message that says I'm
still holding on to thoseforever and ever and ever.
And it's a very energetic, likeyou know, message that says I'm
still holding on to the pastand it's not allowing me to
grieve.
Dr. Michelle (28:34):
Well, the thing is that each time you let go of
something like that, youregrieve, you rekindle the grief
, right, that is, you get rid ofyour husband's car.
That's another loss, it's areminder, it brings it up, but
that's okay because that's howyou heal.
Is that letting go of the stuffis part of the process of
(28:55):
grieving.
I call it pockets of pain.
Actually, in the beginning it'sa whole coat, but then
eventually it's little pocketsthat you run across, like I used
to with my first husband.
We used to do a lot of hiking,so I went out hiking with
somebody one day and out intothis really beautiful park and
(29:20):
the grief welled up in mebecause it reminded me of my
husband.
But then I had a new experienceand and now I had a new story
for that experience and I couldlet the grief go.
I couldn't just release it.
So the process of letting go ofeach of those things that
(29:45):
relate to the person you lost ispart of the grieving.
The grieving which is healing,which is healing when you
acknowledge it, when you allowthe emotions to come up.
And that's, as I said, is whatI teach people is how do you
allow the emotions to come upwithout swamping you?
Rose (30:03):
Right.
And because you're grieving andletting go or healing or trying
to heal, it doesn't mean youforget about the person right.
Dr. Michelle (30:14):
No, no, no, you don't.
They become part of your life,but in a different way and
disembodied.
They're no longer embodied, butthey're still there.
You could still communicatewith them, you could write notes
to them, you could stillcommunicate with them.
Rose (30:27):
You could write notes to them, right?
You could still Right?
Well, I believe in that.
I believe that they're there,they show you symbols, they talk
to you, they show you signs.
Absolutely, you know, I wasthinking about Italian women,
who not modern day Italian women, but ancient or older Italian
women they wear black whensomeone dies, you know someone
close to them dies, and theywear black all the time.
(30:48):
Right, italian women, they wearblack when someone dies, you
know someone close to them dies,and they wear black all the
time, right, right, you know,that's like that becomes part of
their ritual or whatever, andI'm not sure if that still
happened, but maybe not as much,but who knows, in some
societies, yes, well, I had.
Dr. Michelle (31:00):
I did have a client in my in a grief group
and he was Philippine and hebelieved that he would only have
one wife and his wife had diedof some uncomfortable and
difficult illness.
Show and it was talking abouther particular disease, or
(31:31):
something else came up thatreminded him and that how he
felt like he was so stuckbecause he kept on grieving.
This is the reframe.
I said what if you were to takethis experience, instead of
seeing it as bad that, this is ameasure of the love you have
(31:53):
for your wife, savor it, allowyourself to feel.
Those feelings Changed him Likethat.
It changed him.
He was out of the group withina month.
It was like he just changed hisperspective.
Rose (32:08):
Oh wow, that's great.
So talk about your offerings,what you do, how you help people
.
Dr. Michelle (32:25):
First, I have both work with people privately,
because oftentimes they preferto work privately because it's
very intimate, and so it's athree-month program and there
are ways to continue after that.
But we start out and we do thesurf system and I have very,
very and I have a whole programthat's laid out, that has
(32:45):
instructions, videos, everythingyou need, and then I help you
to get to dial it in.
Now, if you're you're a personwho can do things yourself and
you're kind of like that, I alsooffer that as a self study, so
you can do that.
I also have a grief groupoption that you can be part of a
(33:06):
group, and, uh, I think it'sprobably better to start out
with some a private session and,you know, do the private first
and then continue in the groupafter that yeah, it makes sense.
Rose (33:20):
Yeah, for sure, it's more intimate.
You can uncover a lot more in asafe space.
Yes, exactly, and then they canfind that, that engagement with
others, you know, and then ohyes, and then it's marvelous.
Dr. Michelle (33:32):
It's marvelous, and if you do the private you
also get the group along with it, so you do get both.
And the other thing is, if youwant to find, get a little taste
, or you want to find out if youhave complex grief, I have a
free complex grief checklistthat you fill out and I get it
(33:53):
and then I give you anassessment.
Rose (33:57):
Oh nice, oh, that could be really helpful.
Dr. Michelle (34:01):
And then you get a follow up series of emails that
talk you through this processof serve.
So it's really easy, though forthose of you who don't have
time or forget, it's justcomplexgriefchecklistcom.
Rose (34:16):
You're also on YouTube.
Dr. Michelle (34:18):
I am on YouTube, yes, good, and there's lots of
information there.
Rose (34:23):
So definitely YouTube is the place to go.
Everybody goes to YouTube nowfor everything.
Dr. Michelle (34:27):
There's so much stuff and, for those of you who
just want to get a sense of thework that I do, there's great
information on that YouTubechannel.
Rose (34:38):
Good, oh great, wonderful.
And you also were collaboratedwith others on a book.
Dr. Michelle (34:47):
Actually on three books.
Oh, three books, yeah.
The one that I mentioned therewas Step Into your Brilliance
Step Into your Brilliance, andthat chapter is really, really
excellent.
It does talk a lot about thatearly childhood wounding and how
that affects your ability toshine, to be brilliant.
Yeah.
Rose (35:05):
I know that your offerings cover more than just grief, but
also like reinventing your pastor connecting with things in
your past, so there's a lot morethat you could help people on
their journey to being theirauthentic self.
That's it.
That's it Rebirthing and livingtheir best life.
And I love that so love the workthat you're doing to help
people, and grief is such a bigthing that people don't really
(35:32):
understand thoroughly.
I think when they're goingthrough, they don't really allow
themselves the compassion to beheld by someone to help them
and to help them go through thisprocess.
You know.
Dr. Michelle (35:49):
Well, it's our culture right now.
The society we live in rightnow doesn't really understand it
.
It sees grief as interferingwith your productivity or
weakness.
Yes, as weakness, Because youknow, we're very much right now
a patriarchal society andgoodness knows those poor men
(36:10):
have really been tapped out interms of their emotions and
allowing their grief, and it'shorrific what it does to men.
But if we could just normalizegrief as the process we need to
go through Well.
Rose (36:27):
Thank you for being here today with us.
I really appreciate your timeand, like I said, the work that
you're doing to help others aswell.
Dr. Michelle (36:33):
You're very welcome and thank you for having
me on your show.
It's just beautiful.
Rose (36:40):
Thank you for joining me on Chat Off The Mat.
If you're ready to transformyour energy and step into your
fullest potential, I'd love towork with you.
As an energy alchemist, I helpwomen release blocked energy and
reclaim their vibrant essence.
Visit rosewipichcom to exploreworking together and discover
free resources for your journey.
(37:00):
Love today's episode, subscribewherever you get your podcasts,
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Remember wellness warriors yourenergy is precious.
Nurture it wisely.
Welcome to Chat Off The Mat.
I'm your, host, Rose Wippichand today we're diving deep into
the world of complex grief withinternational bestselling
author and award-winningfilmmaker, Dr Michelle Peticolas
.
Bestselling author andaward-winning filmmaker, Dr
Michelle Peticolas If you'veever felt stuck in patterns of
sadness that traditional griefwork hasn't resolved, or if your
major life losses have thrownyou off track from your dreams,
(00:35):
this episode is for you.
Dr Michelle has guidedcountless women and men to not
just heal from loss, but totransform that grief into the
catalyst for reclaiming theirauthentic brilliance and purpose
.
Today, she'll share thesurprisingly simple techniques
that can help you make peacewith your past and reignite your
passion for life.
Welcome, dr Michelle.
(00:57):
Thank you for being here.
Oh, thank you for asking me tojoin you.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
So the first thing I want toask you is how do you define
loss?
Dr. Michelle (01:10):
Loss is more of a personal experience of how we
identify something, because weprobably lose things all the
time.
You know we could lose a pen ora cell phone.
We probably lose things all thetime you know we could lose a
pen or a cell phone.
And when it comes to grief orto significant loss, it has more
(01:32):
to do with relationships.
Human beings are social animals.
We're literally wired to bondwith each other and so when a
significant bond is broken,that's when the experience of
loss is felt at a deep corelevel and it also triggers
(01:54):
natural biological survivalresponse in you.
So grief is not just a mentalthing, it's a whole
physiological thing.
So that's how I define loss.
Loss is the just a mental thing, it's a whole physiological
thing.
So that's how I define loss.
Loss is the breaking of a bondand even if you think about
things like losing a job ormoving across country to a new
(02:17):
place, it's all about bonds,it's all about connections to
people, and it's reallyimportant because as a social
animal, we actually survivebetter in community.
But sometimes you lose yourselfvery early because in order to
survive as little children, wehave to adapt to the environment
(02:42):
, we have to adapt to ourparents, because we are totally
dependent on them for oursurvival.
And if we got niceunconditional love and we could
be ourselves, it's great.
But oftentimes love isconditional.
It is based on you being a goodgirl or behaving appropriately,
and it can be removed or theremay be distancing.
(03:06):
And when you don't have thatsense of security that love is
always going to be there for you, you develop patterns and those
are not really who you are,they're just survival patterns.
But they become so ingrainedthat we don't realize it, and so
most of our life is a processof trying to break those
(03:27):
patterns and get back to who wereally are.
Rose (03:30):
Talk a little bit about now your background, what you do
and your credentials and allthe things about Dr Michelle,
and then we'll move a little bitmore into some of the work that
you do in helping people.
Dr. Michelle (03:44):
I was really, really good in school.
That was one of my survivalresponses because I didn't
really bond with my mother andmy father.
When I was two years old, hewas transferred to Japan and I
was separated from him at a verycritical age in my life, a
critical for everybody.
(04:05):
Those first three to five yearsare really essential.
So I found that if I waslistened and understood what
other people wanted and gave itto them, I would get approval, I
would get attention, I wouldget positive feedback.
(04:26):
So I got really good in schooland it was wonderful and it
worked really well NationalHonor, society, phi Beta Kappa
and then the ultimate inlovability, the PhD.
But I was still afraid of myemotions.
So instead of engaging herbecause I knew nothing, I took
(04:52):
it back.
I said we don't need to dealwith this right now and I shut
her down.
And that was one of the biggestregrets I ever had, because
that was a moment when I couldhave finally really bonded with
her and connected and I didn't.
But it woke me up because Ithought, well, if she had
(05:14):
regrets about not finishing thisone project, where did that
leave me?
This people pleaser, who didn'teven know her favorite color
because I was so intent onpleasing other people and that's
really changed me.
And so the first thing I did wasI decided to make a documentary
(05:37):
on death because I said, wow,this stuff is powerful.
And in the process of makingthe documentary I joined hospice
and eventually did hospicesupport groups and then segued
into having my own coachingbusiness around grief and loss.
But the more I work on it, themore I realize that it's bigger
(06:01):
than that.
It's bigger than that, in fact.
When I made the film, myobjective was to help wake
people up to this glorious butall too short life that we have
and to relive it, to really liveit authentically and as
yourself, and to fulfill who youare.
So that's also the work that Ido in grief is that I help
(06:26):
people use their grief to wakethem up and to heal and to heal.
Rose (06:33):
Yes, through your creative process, you were able to heal
yourself, because I just sensedthat there was so much that you
needed to heal because of thisjourney that you've had.
And I can relate because I wasalso a people pleaser and didn't
get that validation and loveand approval and all that from
my mom and my mom wound uppassing away when she was 49 and
(06:55):
I was 26.
And there was still a lot ofyeah.
Dr. Michelle (07:00):
That's so early.
Rose (07:02):
It's so early and we didn't have a really close
communicative relationship.
We were both very closed off.
So I say that I learned tocommunicate with her since she's
crossed over.
Oh, great, yeah, that'swonderful Working on the wounds,
my personal wounds, to help meheal and heal our relationship.
(07:23):
It's hard to process.
I don't know if we ever doprocess it.
Dr. Michelle (07:28):
And remember I said in the beginning how loss
had to be was partly thisphysiological experience, this
grief.
So when I was growing up wewere not taught to express our
grief.
We were taught to hide it, toshut it down, to get over it.
(07:48):
And it doesn't go away.
It literally lodges itself inthe cells in your body and it
pops up at weird times when youget triggered Because we don't
really allow it to release.
But it is possible.
I had a client I know you weregoing to talk about the work I
(08:10):
do, so I had a client who cameto me and she had been grieving
the loss of her husband for 20years 20 years, I mean tears
rolling down her cheeks and shehad seen psychiatrists and
psychologists and therapists andnobody was helping her.
What I did was teach her how togrieve, was how to finally allow
(08:35):
herself to release the emotions.
And that's where I also learnedthat a lot of it relates back
to that early childhood ofexperience.
And boy did she have a lot ofloss.
Her father left her mother andher sister when she was very
(08:56):
young because her motherhappened to be a party girl and
liked to go out and mess around.
So she then was taken care ofby her grandmother, and then her
grandmother died.
And then she meets the hero ofher life, her husband, and she's
like, oh, finally I've got whatI need right.
(09:18):
And then he dies young.
Oh wow, three losses.
And now she has a problembecause her son, her adult son,
looks exactly like her husband.
So every time she sees him, shecried.
It was destroying theirrelationship.
So she came to me and within avery short amount of time of
(09:40):
finally allowing that emotionalenergy that's like number one
step.
Number one in grieving is to beable to allow your emotions.
But some people are afraid ofthat because they're afraid
they're going to get trapped init and they'll never stop crying
.
Rose (09:58):
So you're able to help people who have been grieving
for a long time or maybe nothave even thought about grieving
for a long time, really unleashthose deep cellular emotions.
Dr. Michelle (10:11):
Yes.
So what happens is that we havedeveloped behavior in childhood
like I talked about, thatpeople-pleasing or lack of
confidence, or getting into—there are a whole slew of things
that we develop to survive butit holds us back from being our
authentic self, from being whowe're meant to be.
(10:31):
Now, the reason why I work withpeople around grief and loss is
that often it's when we comeface to face with death that we
get that mirror reflected in ourface about who we are.
We start to think about our owndeath, and so it's an
opportunity to use the energy ofgrief to propel us towards who
(10:56):
we are, and that's what I do inthe work.
That I do is use that as a fuelto motivate people, because
people mostly they don't doanything if it's just okay,
right, do people?
Not?
Very often do they go out oftheir way and sign up with with
a coach and and work onthemselves no, we think we can
(11:17):
handle it all.
Rose (11:18):
and then it manifests, like you said.
It comes out somehow and rageor anger or physical
manifestation of that emotion,and and that happens, and then
we're stuck trying to deal withthat and we continue to repress
those emotions.
Dr. Michelle (11:32):
So the reason why I started working on myself I
mean, besides the spiritual work, which was not enough was when
I met my current husband.
Husband and I started to seethe patterns that I had
developed that were going todestroy our relationship and I
said, no, I'm not doing thatthis time, I'm going to get the
(11:55):
help I need and I did you make adistinction between normal
grief and complex grief.
Rose (12:02):
Can youtalk about
Dr. Michelle (12:04):
that That is about having the breaking of a
significant bond, or maybe youknow there are different levels
of grief and it's reallypersonal what's important.
I've had people in whichgrandparents were the big
relationship, so it's theclosest, the close bonds that
(12:25):
cause the most grief.
But that doesn't mean that youshouldn't grieve other losses.
I encourage people to do thatbecause you know you sort of say
, oh well, that was just afriend or the family or whatever
.
But no, you actually need togrieve all the griefs and so
some of those are normal grief.
(12:47):
You know you've lost a friendand you feel the grief and you
feel the disconnection and youallow that.
And some people have grown upand they have healthy
relationships and then they losesomebody, have healthy
relationships and then they losesomebody and they can get over
the grief because through thenormal avenues of grief groups
(13:10):
and but complex grief and a lotmost of my clients have had
complex grief.
That came to me because therewas something in the past that
was never healed and wasreverberating throughout their
life.
And it's so.
(13:32):
I'm a spiritual person and Ibelieve that the spirit is
trying to wake us up to who weare and what we're meant to do,
and so I feel like, if you don'tget it on your own, the spirit
will send you little experimentsor experiences that will wake
you up and change you.
I was really clueless for along time and I kept on just
(13:57):
adjusting rather than realizingthat the universe was saying
wake up, this is not going towork.
You need to be yourself.
Rose (14:05):
What are some of the ways you think that spirit does this,
that nudges people in thosedirections, or to wake up.
Dr. Michelle (14:12):
Okay, so the first thing that happened in my
experience, and you don't mindme telling my story right.
Rose (14:21):
Not at all.
Your stories are what makes itinteresting, exactly.
Dr. Michelle (14:28):
So I went to graduate school, oh okay, and I
was working on my PhD and I gotmy first teaching job and up
until that time, pleasing peopleteachers was easy.
You know, you had each teacherand you would please them.
Now I was a teacher myself andI had to please all these
(14:50):
students that had differentrequirements, and I had to
please the administration and Ihad to please my chairman of my
department.
You know there's that sayingyou can please all the people
some of the time and not all thepeople, not all the people all
the time Right and I couldn't,and, and I lost that job after
(15:15):
two years and I was devastated.
So I thought I was not goodenough and so, in a way, spirit
was probably got me fired andthen got my husband to leave me.
And then I had an experiencewith my spiritual teacher that
(15:36):
started to really wake me up.
This is another story.
So I was trying to please him.
I traded my husband, I tradedmy boss, I traded my father for
my spiritual teacher and dideverything I could imagine to
please him.
And I think he was set onbreaking me of that habit of
(15:57):
pleasing.
He was a shamanic drummer and hehad these dance shows with all
these women dancing probablyvery politically incorrect now,
but I would videotape.
He took the video away Okay, noproblem, I will be a dancer.
So I tried really hard to be adancer and it was clear that his
(16:18):
highest dancers got the most ofhis juice.
So I'm working, and working,and working.
And finally one time in NewYork he's doing a dance show and
he specifically asks me to bethere and I get excited and I'm
supposed to be a dancer, thevideotaper.
So I go and I ask him should Idance?
(16:39):
And he kind of shrugged andsays you could dance, but first
I have to videotape.
So I'm out there for 90 minutesin this cold auditorium in the
wintertime in a belly dancecostume.
But the thing is that this manwas spiritual in a way you could
not imagine.
So everything he did worked inthat direction.
(17:01):
So anyway, finally, I'm likerealize when he's when the same
dancers are getting up for thesecond or third time, second
time, that he's forgotten me.
He has forgotten he's in hisdance show.
He's forgotten.
So I start started the tears,they're just rolled down my
cheeks and he must have sensed.
(17:22):
I mean, he was that kind of aperson he sensed.
So he sends somebody out toreplace me on the camera and I
go up there.
I couldn't dance, I was sofrozen, I was so humiliated, I
was so angry, so I didn't danceand he just put the rest of the
dancers out there.
But it woke me up.
(17:44):
I made the decision that daythat I would never let anybody
judge my dancing, that I woulddance for myself.
And that is the first steptowards authenticity, is when
you do stuff because and youlearn to love yourself, to feel
(18:08):
in yourself what you need.
And that was huge.
That was a big, bigbreakthrough.
Your mistakes are probably yourbiggest teachers in terms of
finding out.
What you need to learn, andthat's what all the spiritual
traditions tell you, is that notto beat yourself up for the
(18:29):
mistake, but to say, okay, whatdo I need to learn from this?
Rose (18:33):
You created a framework, so it's SERVE S-E-R-V-E.
Yes, it provides a system forworking through complex grief.
Can you walk us through thesteps involved?
Dr. Michelle (18:44):
in that Sure, absolutely and also how you came
up with that.
Well, I came up with it a whileback because, you know, people
always kind of find a frameworkto help people to understand,
and so serve is an easy word toremember, but in this case,
(19:09):
serve means not that you serveother people, which of course is
people pleaser I was doing allmy life but to let the grief
serve you.
So the first and it does, if youfollow these steps, you utilize
the grief to propel you forward.
So the first one is the S,which is surrender.
(19:31):
So you have to surrender to thefeelings and the emotions and
of course, there's a lot of.
You know rules around that ofhow to do it and when to do it
so that you support yourselfinstead of being humiliated,
right?
So the next one is to engage.
One of the most importantthings that people need to do
(19:55):
after they've had a significantloss is to rally the troops
around to get support from otherpeople.
This is a wild story, butelephants also grieve, and when
an elephant loses a mom, or themom loses a baby, the elephants
(20:18):
all surround that grievingelephant and stay there for
maybe a day or two protectingthat elephant, and then the lead
elephant, the mama queenelephant, nudges the wounded
grieving elephant and gets themmoving again.
So we need people.
(20:40):
We're we're social beings, andwhen you've lost that
significant, that's the biggestloss.
Of course, humans are complexand they're like well, I don't
want anybody, but the personI've lost right.
Rose (20:52):
They isolate themselves but the body.
Dr. Michelle (20:55):
The body needs the contact, and so you have to do
it anyway for your body, becauseyour body needs it, needs the
hugs, needs the touching, needssomebody to listen to you.
So that's the first D.
Then the R is reframe.
(21:18):
So oftentimes we have storiesaround the loss what did I do
wrong?
They shouldn't have left me.
I'm never going to be happyagain.
So we have to change.
We have to change that story,we have to reframe it, and I
have a very, very elaborateprocess of helping people
(21:40):
literally rewrite the story oftheir lives so that they see the
loss as part of that trajectory, of where they're going.
And then the next E, the nextis V, and that's vision.
Okay, now, where are we goingbased on the new story?
What's the happy ending?
(22:01):
Where are we headed towards?
Who do you really want to be?
And then, finally, once youhave that vision, you have to
bring that into being in thisworld.
And that's the last E, which isto express world.
Rose (22:22):
And that's the last E, which is to express you know,
children are the victims of alot of grief also or loss, I
should say and then experiencinggrief.
How can a mom or a woman who'snavigating the loss of, let's
say, a husband, also help thechild?
That's a really complexsituation, that's a difficult
thing.
Dr. Michelle (22:37):
Children are much better at handling grief if you
are honest with them and you andshare what you're going through
.
But reassuring them that you'restill going to be there for
them I mean, because that's theother thing is oh my gosh, I've
lost my father.
Oh my gosh, I've lost my mother.
And will you be there or am I?
You know, am I on my own Right?
(22:59):
But it's important for moms toteach their children how to
grieve and they will watch theirmother and how she handles it
and she's strong and holds alltheir emotions in there.
They're going to think that'sthe way they need to do.
They need to do it.
So one of the things that Iheard while I was making my
films that I thought wasdelightful was doing something
(23:22):
creative with your childrenaround the loss In one case,
where, if people are gettingcremated, you get those
cardboard cartons or cardboardcartons, coffins and decorate it
, you know, and get the kidsinvolved, and so you're having
the children part of theexperience and part of the
(23:45):
healing, as opposed to put in aseparate room and pretend that
nothing's going on and talkabout it.
Rose (23:53):
You know, talk about the good times and and the feelings
yeah, you know I, losing apartner is really hard and when
you have children it's hardbecause you need to process your
own grief and sometimes never,women never really process it
effectively and then it affectstheir children, like we were
(24:13):
just talking, where they don'twant their children to even move
away and they keep them closeRight and isolated Right, and
it's not healthy.
Dr. Michelle (24:25):
No, no, and that goes back to that first E of
engaging with other people, notputting it all on your children
to be to keep you happy, right.
Or to keep you yes, to have themreplace the loss no, you really
(24:45):
.
And that's why it would be good, if you're in that situation,
to get counseling so that nowyou have somebody that will help
you along.
So the process that I did itwas actually called the process
was to go back into the earlychildhood experience and to
actually go back and look atyour parents' lives when they
(25:08):
were children, and that was justso illuminating.
Suddenly I had huge compassionfor my mother and my father.
When you get this perspective,you can start taking that
towards everybody you have arelationship with.
Rose (25:25):
So even your partner.
Dr. Michelle (25:28):
you know they have a history, and how does that
show up?
Instead of taking it personally, oftentimes the stuff is just
their biography.
Rose (25:39):
And then also understanding what happened and
try not to be that way with yourkids.
That was my thing, yes.
Dr. Michelle (25:47):
Well, it's very brave to decide to have children
and to take that on and to bethat influential, but guess what
?
They are their own spiritualbeing, having their own human
adventure.
Yes, they are.
Rose (26:01):
You're right, absolutely For listeners who suspect that
they may be experiencing complexgrief.
What are some of the signs?
Let's talk about someone'sexperiencing complex grief.
Someone passed away a long timeago, even recently.
What are some of the signalsthat they need to really be
aware of, to say, oh my gosh, Ireally need help.
Dr. Michelle (26:24):
Well, going on for a long time is one of the signs
is that you just aren't able toget over it and it's
interfering with your lifebecause you don't feel engaged
in life, that you're notinterested, maybe you're a
little despairing, you have nohope.
Those are all signs that youaren't able to move forward.
(26:45):
Some people so there are somedifferent responses to it Some
people enshrine the loss, like,if you remember the Dickens book
Great Expectations, ladyHaversham, the woman who was
dressed in the bridal gown Right, the woman who was dressed in
(27:11):
the bridal gown and had thetable all laid out with little
animals running on the table,because she enshrined it.
And people do that.
And actually when I first gotinto hospice partner law support
groups the group that Iinherited the women there had
been there for three years andthey had all enshrined their
husbands and they talked andthey had enshrined the
(27:33):
experience of being widows andindulged in that and that's a
choice and if that works for you, that's fine.
That doesn't work for me and sothey pretty much dropped out of
the group I had because I was.
My focus was on helping peoplebecome authentic and to use this
(27:53):
as an opportunity for rebirth.
Rose (27:56):
Yeah, rebirth.
I love that People hold on tothings too.
I know we're still talkingabout that.
Things that I realized too iswomen or men.
They hold on to things thattheir spouse had and they just
keep it around as a reminder andyou know, those are just things
like we're talking like clothesand shoes and things like that.
(28:20):
I'm not talking about pictures,so that's another thing, you
know just holding on to thoseforever and ever and ever.
And it's a very energetic, youknow, message that says I'm
still holding on to thoseforever and ever and ever.
And it's a very energetic, likeyou know, message that says I'm
still holding on to the pastand it's not allowing me to
grieve.
Dr. Michelle (28:34):
Well, the thing is that each time you let go of
something like that, youregrieve, you rekindle the grief
, right, that is, you get rid ofyour husband's car.
That's another loss, it's areminder, it brings it up, but
that's okay because that's howyou heal.
Is that letting go of the stuffis part of the process of
(28:55):
grieving.
I call it pockets of pain.
Actually, in the beginning it'sa whole coat, but then
eventually it's little pocketsthat you run across, like I used
to with my first husband.
We used to do a lot of hiking,so I went out hiking with
somebody one day and out intothis really beautiful park and
(29:20):
the grief welled up in mebecause it reminded me of my
husband.
But then I had a new experienceand and now I had a new story
for that experience and I couldlet the grief go.
I couldn't just release it.
So the process of letting go ofeach of those things that
(29:45):
relate to the person you lost ispart of the grieving.
The grieving which is healing,which is healing when you
acknowledge it, when you allowthe emotions to come up.
And that's, as I said, is whatI teach people is how do you
allow the emotions to come upwithout swamping you?
Rose (30:03):
Right.
And because you're grieving andletting go or healing or trying
to heal, it doesn't mean youforget about the person right.
Dr. Michelle (30:14):
No, no, no, you don't.
They become part of your life,but in a different way and
disembodied.
They're no longer embodied, butthey're still there.
You could still communicatewith them, you could write notes
to them, you could stillcommunicate with them.
Rose (30:27):
You could write notes to them, right?
You could still Right?
Well, I believe in that.
I believe that they're there,they show you symbols, they talk
to you, they show you signs.
Absolutely, you know, I wasthinking about Italian women,
who not modern day Italian women, but ancient or older Italian
women they wear black whensomeone dies, you know someone
close to them dies, and theywear black all the time.
(30:48):
Right, italian women, they wearblack when someone dies, you
know someone close to them dies,and they wear black all the
time, right, right, you know,that's like that becomes part of
their ritual or whatever, andI'm not sure if that still
happened, but maybe not as much,but who knows, in some
societies, yes, well, I had.
Dr. Michelle (31:00):
I did have a client in my in a grief group
and he was Philippine and hebelieved that he would only have
one wife and his wife had diedof some uncomfortable and
difficult illness.
Show and it was talking abouther particular disease, or
(31:31):
something else came up thatreminded him and that how he
felt like he was so stuckbecause he kept on grieving.
This is the reframe.
I said what if you were to takethis experience, instead of
seeing it as bad that, this is ameasure of the love you have
(31:53):
for your wife, savor it, allowyourself to feel.
Those feelings Changed him Likethat.
It changed him.
He was out of the group withina month.
It was like he just changed hisperspective.
Rose (32:08):
Oh wow, that's great.
So talk about your offerings,what you do, how you help people
.
Dr. Michelle (32:25):
First, I have both work with people privately,
because oftentimes they preferto work privately because it's
very intimate, and so it's athree-month program and there
are ways to continue after that.
But we start out and we do thesurf system and I have very,
very and I have a whole programthat's laid out, that has
(32:45):
instructions, videos, everythingyou need, and then I help you
to get to dial it in.
Now, if you're you're a personwho can do things yourself and
you're kind of like that, I alsooffer that as a self study, so
you can do that.
I also have a grief groupoption that you can be part of a
(33:06):
group, and, uh, I think it'sprobably better to start out
with some a private session and,you know, do the private first
and then continue in the groupafter that yeah, it makes sense.
Rose (33:20):
Yeah, for sure, it's more intimate.
You can uncover a lot more in asafe space.
Yes, exactly, and then they canfind that, that engagement with
others, you know, and then ohyes, and then it's marvelous.
Dr. Michelle (33:32):
It's marvelous, and if you do the private you
also get the group along with it, so you do get both.
And the other thing is, if youwant to find, get a little taste
, or you want to find out if youhave complex grief, I have a
free complex grief checklistthat you fill out and I get it
(33:53):
and then I give you anassessment.
Rose (33:57):
Oh nice, oh, that could be really helpful.
Dr. Michelle (34:01):
And then you get a follow up series of emails that
talk you through this processof serve.
So it's really easy, though forthose of you who don't have
time or forget, it's justcomplexgriefchecklistcom.
Rose (34:16):
You're also on YouTube.
Dr. Michelle (34:18):
I am on YouTube, yes, good, and there's lots of
information there.
Rose (34:23):
So definitely YouTube is the place to go.
Everybody goes to YouTube nowfor everything.
Dr. Michelle (34:27):
There's so much stuff and, for those of you who
just want to get a sense of thework that I do, there's great
information on that YouTubechannel.
Rose (34:38):
Good, oh great, wonderful.
And you also were collaboratedwith others on a book.
Dr. Michelle (34:47):
Actually on three books.
Oh, three books, yeah.
The one that I mentioned therewas Step Into your Brilliance
Step Into your Brilliance, andthat chapter is really, really
excellent.
It does talk a lot about thatearly childhood wounding and how
that affects your ability toshine, to be brilliant.
Yeah.
Rose (35:05):
I know that your offerings cover more than just grief, but
also like reinventing your pastor connecting with things in
your past, so there's a lot morethat you could help people on
their journey to being theirauthentic self.
That's it.
That's it Rebirthing and livingtheir best life.
And I love that so love the workthat you're doing to help
people, and grief is such a bigthing that people don't really
(35:32):
understand thoroughly.
I think when they're goingthrough, they don't really allow
themselves the compassion to beheld by someone to help them
and to help them go through thisprocess.
You know.
Dr. Michelle (35:49):
Well, it's our culture right now.
The society we live in rightnow doesn't really understand it
.
It sees grief as interferingwith your productivity or
weakness.
Yes, as weakness, Because youknow, we're very much right now
a patriarchal society andgoodness knows those poor men
(36:10):
have really been tapped out interms of their emotions and
allowing their grief, and it'shorrific what it does to men.
But if we could just normalizegrief as the process we need to
go through Well.
Rose (36:27):
Thank you for being here today with us.
I really appreciate your timeand, like I said, the work that
you're doing to help others aswell.
Dr. Michelle (36:33):
You're very welcome and thank you for having
me on your show.
It's just beautiful.
Rose (36:40):
Thank you for joining me on Chat Off The Mat.
If you're ready to transformyour energy and step into your
fullest potential, I'd love towork with you.
As an energy alchemist, I helpwomen release blocked energy and
reclaim their vibrant essence.
Visit rosewipichcom to exploreworking together and discover
free resources for your journey.
(37:00):
Love today's episode, subscribewherever you get your podcasts,
leave a rating and share yourbiggest takeaway with me on
Instagram at Rose Whippich.
Remember wellness warriors yourenergy is precious.
Nurture it wisely.
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