November 10, 2024 • 63 mins
Can grief be a catalyst for creativity? Join me as I uncover the transformative power of loss with Rachel Fowler, a storyteller and grief coach who has turned her personal tragedies into a source of inspiration and healing. Rachel shares her deeply moving journey, from relocating to London to coping with the devastating loss of her nephew, and how these experiences have influenced her work, including her poignant short film "Stillness." Through this heartfelt conversation, we explore how Rachel helps others process grief through creative expression, offering invaluable insights for those seeking solace and understanding.
Community support plays a pivotal role in processing grief, and this episode sheds light on unique ways to foster these connections. We discuss the often-overlooked importance of reaching out to those in mourning months after a loss, and discuss the multifaceted nature of grief within families, especially when children are involved. Through personal anecdotes, we illustrate how opening up about grief can be mutually healing and how small gestures can make a significant difference.
This episode also touches on major life changes like moving, divorce, and job loss, stressing the importance of purpose and relationships in finding happiness amidst grief. Join us for a touching episode that offers both practical advice and emotional support for anyone navigating the complexities of loss.
Rachel is a film director, actor, mother, and grief coach. A personal loss inspired her to write a short film called 'Stillness' and is currently working on another film called 'Somewhere Very Near' - both of which focus on grief. You can connect with Rachel Fowler Grief Coach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rose (00:03):
Welcome to Chat Off The Mat, the podcast that explores
the transformative journey ofhealing and self-discovery where
energy, spirituality, mind andbody intersect.
Hi, I'm your host, Rose Wippage, and I invite you to join me
and explore ways to invite moreholistic practices into your
life.
(00:23):
I will feature experts andpractitioners who provide
insights, tips and practicaladvice.
From Reiki to Qigong, chakrabalancing to shamanism, this
podcast will be your guide tounderstanding how these
practices can lead to moreharmony and greater energy.
Whether you're seeking stressrelief, emotional balance or a
(00:46):
deeper connection to yourauthentic self, chat Off the Mat
provide you with insights andinspiration.
Let's start discovering thepossibilities that lie within
you.
Today.
On Chat Off the Mat, I welcomeRachel Fowler.
Rachel is a storyteller,whether as an actor, director,
(01:10):
writer or coach.
She celebrates human storiesand the power they have to heal,
reveal hidden truths and totransform.
She's passionate about makingthe world more grief, literate
and more compassionate, bothtowards ourselves and each other
.
Welcome Rachel.
Rachel (01:28):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Rose (01:30):
So grateful that you're here.
Yes, thank you for being here.
I'd like to start out by askingyou to tell our listeners a
little bit about your backgroundand also the path that led you
to do what you're doing todayand what it is that you do.
Rachel (01:46):
Amazing, amazing.
It's interesting.
I feel like I have been becauseI'm an artist, I'm a little bit
of a jack of all trades.
So I'm an actor, I'm afilmmaker, I'm a theater maker,
(02:08):
I'm a filmmaker, I'm a theatermaker and I moved to London nine
years ago and sort of had toabandon a lot of that.
We moved here for my husband'sjob and at 45, I had to reinvent
myself, which was reallychallenging.
A lot of endings, a lot ofgrief over those endings, a lot
of grief over those endings.
And about a year after we movedhere, my nephew, who was 13
(02:36):
years old, died on my daughter'sbirthday and that sort of sent
this huge ripple effect throughmy whole family, obviously
through my life, and all of mycreative work started being
about grief.
Everything I was writing wasabout grief and I had started
coaching, doing executivecoaching, which I really loved,
and COVID hit and I was like,wow, the world is grieving.
(03:01):
You know, we were grieving thelack of normalcy.
We were grieving, obviously,death because there was so much
happening I mean so much and Iwas like, ah, here it is.
This is what I'm being calledto do is to use my own personal
experience with grief to holdspace for other people and to
(03:24):
help people get more comfortablewith holding space for each
other, because I think thatthat's sort of what I mean by
wanting to make the world alittle bit more grief literate
is getting people to set asidetheir own discomfort in service
of someone else's suffering.
So now I'm I'm predominantly agrief coach grief and loss coach
(03:51):
and I also do films.
I make films and they're allabout grief and yeah, did.
Rose (04:02):
I answer your question.
Rachel (04:03):
I think I did.
Rose (04:03):
Yes, you, you did.
Thank you so much for doingthat.
You answered all my questions,um, and I know that let's talk
about your film, because I knowyou've put a lot of energy, time
and um around making your films, so the a personal loss is what
inspired you to write andproduce and direct your film
Stillness.
(04:24):
Yeah, could you talk about thatmovie for us please?
Rachel (04:28):
Yeah, so the loss was actually the loss of my nephew
and he died on my daughter'sbirthday, like I said.
So I was trying to untanglethat great joy, great sorrow,
and I wrote a short story.
So the story of Stillness isabout a photographer who comes
to a hospital to takeremembrance portraits for a
(04:53):
family that have just suffered astillbirth, and I really wanted
to capture the witnessing.
And again, it's that holdingspace, holding space for other
people who are in pain.
So it's really thephotographer's story, this woman
(05:15):
who comes for her own reasons,her own personal experience with
loss, to lend her time, herenergy, her art, her witnessing
to other people who arestruggling and who are in pain
and help them find a connectionand some healing with it.
So, yeah, that's stillness, didyou?
Rose (05:37):
watch it.
I did watch it.
It was very powerful and Icouldn't stop crying.
And it's not like there were alot, there was a lot of words.
It was almost powerful throughthe lack of words, through the
lack of dialogue and I knowyou've graciously offered to
allow me to put the link in theshow notes for people to watch.
(05:59):
Very powerful.
Anybody experiencing any typeof loss can really benefit from
watching it.
And yeah, it was, it was, itwas great, it was, it was
wonderful and it's a short film.
I know it's not 11 minutes long.
Yes 11 powerful minutes.
Yeah, so let's talk about the.
(06:21):
Or you say so, you write andyou say that you use creative
space to help people heal.
Can you talk about what that is?
How do you work with people byusing creativity to process
their grief?
Besides the movie, are thereany?
Rachel (06:33):
other ways.
We all have that capacity toimagine, which is where our
creativity comes from, and Ithink that sometimes over time,
because of the way that we'resocialized, the way that we're
(06:58):
educated, the jobs that we get,we sort of lose our way into it.
So a lot of what I do is to tryto guide back into that
imaginative state, because I dobelieve that there's so much
healing that can take placethere.
And when you're going throughgrief it's transformative, right
.
It changes you and changes whoyou are, and being able to
(07:20):
imagine what you want your lifeto look like on the other side
of grief, being able to imaginehow you want to feel, imagine
how you want to be living, canbe really, really useful.
So a lot of what working withme looks like is me sort of
meeting you where you're at interms of what interests you in
(07:41):
your creativity.
The go-to is writing, sothere'll be journal prompts.
I'll give something like that.
I had one client who she saidthat she couldn't write because
it just it felt likeoverwhelming.
So for her, I asked her to writea haiku at the end of every day
(08:02):
, to come up with, you know, areally synthesized and powerful,
rich, 17 syllables toencapsulate what had happened to
her that day, and she foundthat really really useful as a
way of processing right, puttingit to language and some concise
language, processing right,putting it to language and some
(08:26):
concise language.
Another client was a painterand she was really struggling
with a particular event thathappened with her and her wife
before her wife died, and so Iwas like all right, I want you
to paint the event.
And she came back with a comicbook, you know, which was
amazing, really, really amazing.
It was like a graphic novel, amini graphic novel.
(08:49):
In like four or five pages sortof went through this, this
particular event.
Um, so it's really kind offinding what works for you and
then I give you prompts aroundyour emotions and the events
that you are trying to processand trying to untangle.
And the untangling is aboutputting down things that you
(09:10):
don't want to take with you intothe future and then really
holding on to and taking care ofthe things that you do want to
take with you into the future.
Rose (09:21):
So people process grief differently.
Some people think they'reprocessing grief, but they're
actually they're not, they'realmost pushing it away.
And then, perhaps later on,cancer.
So I saw her slowly demiseafter like was eight months.
(09:47):
So I was more distracted afterher death and it was like till
six months later when I reallystarted experiencing like anger
and like not feeling stable inmy environment.
My work was almost it was, mywork was good because I focused
(10:07):
out.
It was a distraction, buteverything else started
crumbling around me and then Iwent to see someone, a therapist
, who said you know that ittypically takes a few months
later because when you'regrieving at the time of, you
know the, the funeral or thewake, you know you're surrounded
by community and then afterthat you're kind of left alone.
(10:29):
What are your thoughts aroundthat and do you feel that that
is true or do you have any otherthoughts around?
You know that time period thatpasses like why it happens or
what to do when that happensperiod that passes, like why it
happens or what to do when thathappens.
Rachel (10:49):
Yeah, you're absolutely right that everybody grieves in
their own way and everybody'sgrief is unique because
everybody's relationship towhatever they've lost is unique.
Right, there are someuniversalities because we're
humans, right, so we have thesame physiological, neurological
makeup, basic makeup, and sothere are certain things that
(11:10):
will be sort of uniform acrosspeople's experiences.
You know, some of it alsodepends on your culture, right,
if you've got a culture thatembraces death, you know, like I
think of the irish where youlike go to a wake and you like
have a party around the deadbody, you know there's something
(11:33):
that's really celebratory aboutthat, but it's also a like
they've got an active culture ofkeening, which is the physical
expression of your grief, right,right.
Right, we've sort of separateddeath, made it like a medical
(11:53):
event to be avoided at all costs, when actually it's the most
predictable thing that we'llever experience, and I think
that there's a lot ofbureaucracy around death in
particular.
So there's a lot of bureaucracyaround death in particular.
So there's a lot of things tokeep you busy and not actively
sitting with your grief.
Right, you're the estates inescrow.
(12:15):
You've got to manage thefuneral.
You've got to make arrangementsfor this and for that, and for
this, um, so it can sort.
It can be a distraction, awelcome distraction as well.
Giving you a task, right, um,makes me think of that.
Uh, colonel Brandon from Senseand Sensibility, give me a task,
(12:38):
miss, eleanor, else I go mad.
You know, um, and those taskscan be useful because it can
feel really overwhelming.
Grief also manifests itselfphysically in the body, like
depression, yes, the brain fog,the physical fatigue, the
(13:00):
sadness, right the lethargy, etcetera, and all of that is
trying to deal with this absence, with this loss.
I think at some point mostpeople sort of naturally come to
the active processing of theirgrief and if you're lucky,
(13:21):
you've got a vibrant communityaround you that will support you
regardless.
I know, when my father died, mymother, I mean my mother's
community is so beautiful andthat community that you know you
feel like maybe leaves a coupleof weeks after the funeral and
(13:42):
everybody kind of gets on withtheir life.
This community was like, no,we're here, year later, we're
still here.
We're here, you know, likeinviting her out, making sure
that she was doing things, allof this stuff.
We're still here.
We're going to talk aboutMichael, we're going to talk
about all of these things.
Rose (14:01):
I think that's important.
Rachel (14:03):
I think it's so important, so's important.
I think it's so important, soso important.
I heard a beautiful story, too,that I want to share, and then
I have one more thing to sayabout that question Sure, the
floor is yours.
So I heard about this man and Idon't know his name.
I need to find his name becauseI want to write to him.
He is a funeral celebrant andhe typically does funerals for
(14:27):
people that he does not know,and one of the things that he
says to the entire congregationis, or to whoever's at the
funeral he'll say the familydoesn't know you're here, right?
They are in the middle of thisbig big thing and they may not
(14:49):
remember that you said somethingto them today.
They may not remember that youwere, that you showed up, et
cetera.
So, on your way out, I want youto pick up one of those
matchboxes that I've made, thematchbox that has the face of
the person who's died on it, andI want you to throw it in your
(15:12):
junk drawer.
And three months from now, fourmonths from now, when you're
opening up your junk drawerlooking for something or looking
for matches, that's when you'llsee that and that's when they
need you.
That's when I want you to reachout to them, and I just think
that's so brilliant, it's sobrilliant.
We don't intentionally forget.
We just have our own lives thatare complicated and nuanced,
(15:32):
and our own sufferings, and ourown, you know.
But what a beautiful littlereminder.
Yeah, reach out to them, sayhello, how are you doing?
Can I take you for a coffee orfor lunch?
Rose (15:47):
I think I think we forget.
I know you want to say onething, but I think I think we're
uncomfortable sometimes assomeone who's doesn't know what
to say to someone who just lostsomeone Like you know I've heard
you say this before on someother podcasts that you know we
or everybody says what can I do?
Tell me what I, what, what,what do I need, what I need to
do for you, but we don't evenknow what that is or what to
(16:10):
expect if they don't know how to.
You know that that, so.
So I think that's a beautifulthing and and coming across it
three, four months later, whenthey're really probably grieving
a lot or didn't realize theywere, and feeling isolated, Like
you said.
Rachel (16:24):
You know, I felt busy and it was a distraction, et
cetera.
And then suddenly, boom, itkind of hit me and you feel
lonely for connection, and atthat point you're like is it too
late to ask people to help methrough my grief?
Rose (16:39):
You know, because it's been six months.
Right, yeah, Because a lot oftimes people don't want to reach
out and ask other people causethey feel they're a burden or
it's it's their cross to bear ornot someone else's.
But but having a community, Ithink it's really important.
So people out there that arelistening, you know, creating a
community to help support peoplewho are grieving in any
(17:00):
capacity is really superimportant.
Yeah, said you had somethingelse you wanted to share.
Rachel (17:07):
Yeah, I wanted.
No.
I don't remember what I wasgoing to say.
I was going to no, no, it'sfine, it'll probably come back
to me.
But the thing that I love aboutthe that what you just said, you
know, cause that does actuallycome up quite a bit the uh
(17:27):
feeling worried that they'regoing to be a burden if they
bring up their grief to a friend, et cetera.
Um, and so they choose toisolate themselves, they choose
not to talk about it, and what Ithink they don't, most people
don't realize, is that peoplewant to be helpful, people want
(17:50):
to hear your story, people wantto witness.
It actually gives the listenera lot too.
It's not just the person who'sgrieving, who's giving their
story, the person who'slistening and showing up for
somebody else.
There's a lot of gratitude, alot of pride, a lot of like
(18:11):
beautiful things that we receivewhen we can do that for someone
else too.
And for those who feel like,well, I don't want to reach out
because I don't want to upsetthem Guess what they're already
upset.
You reaching out to them andasking them how they're doing
(18:32):
will only They'll either say I'mgood, thank you for reaching
out.
I don't really want to openthat can of worms.
I don't really want to talkabout that, but they'll be so
grateful that you reached out.
Or they'll say yes, please, CanI, can we please chat?
Yeah, and you didn't upset them.
If they cry, they're upsetbecause of what they've lost or
(18:53):
who they've lost, you know.
Rose (18:54):
So yeah, lost, you know.
So, yeah, and there's different.
You know, sometimes there's aloss of a husband and then
there's the wife, and then youhave the children, and then the
wife is trying to be strong forthe children.
So that processing that griefin that house is even more, I
don't want to say complicated,but there's more layers, right.
(19:17):
So you know, I was justthinking about that because I
know people who have lost theirhusbands and their their, their
wives are there or even husbands, and they have.
You know, they have to processtheir own grief and then their
children and they have toexplain to them.
And you know, do you ever findthat?
I don't know if you've workedwith children do children
process it differently, or istheir capacity to process it
(19:38):
differently?
Rachel (19:40):
So children and it sort of depends on how old we're
talking about, right, very youngchildren are curious, very open
.
Oh, what's that?
I don't know what that is.
You know all of the fear aroundlike how our children are going
to react.
That's on us.
Rose (20:01):
Yeah.
Rachel (20:01):
That's because that's what we fear we are going to do.
You know how we are going toreact and we're scared that we
can't fix it, and the truth iswe can't.
You know, the only way to theother side is through.
When my father died, it wasreally interesting.
I am, my daughter, was three,and we had brought him home to
(20:27):
die.
He had, he had had a sort ofcascading health issues and um
failure to thrive and finally,after like three months in rehab
, my mom was like he's ready togo, let's bring him home.
And he was in our living roomfor about six days.
We cared for his body, we, youknow, gave him morphine, we
(20:49):
talked around, you know, we allhung out in the living room and
talked with him and my daughterwould come and, like, play with
his hand and, you know, leave,et cetera.
And he died early one morning,may 4th, and we all were really
upset, obviously, and we crackedopen a bottle of champagne and
(21:13):
started telling stories abouthim and laughing and crying, and
I was so nervous to tell mythree-year-old that he was gone
and so I postponed it andpostponed it and postponed it
Like he died at like 7.30 in themorning and then I don't think
I told her until about 3 pm andshe basically I was like, so you
(21:37):
know, greg Red's dead, he'sgone.
And she's like, oh, you know.
And she goes over to the bodyand she touches his hand and
she's like, oh, he's cold.
And then she put the blanketover his hand and she wanted to
give him a kiss.
So I lifted her up and she gavehim a kiss and then she was
like, okay, went off to play.
Yeah, later that afternoon,though, at six o'clock, when the
(22:01):
funeral home came to pick himup and take him that's when she
got upset.
She was like, who is thisstranger taking him away?
And all of us were like, oh, oh, of course, of course, of
course that's when she would beupset.
Right, you know that childrenare much more open and if we can
(22:23):
, if we can model the fact thatwe're sad and it's awful and it
hurts, but we're going to beokay, that's giving our children
so many tools to deal with anykind of heartache, any kind of
uncertainty, any kind.
Rose (22:44):
And I know you, you work with people to you know, help
them have more compassiontowards either people who are
(23:05):
grieving or themselves.
Rachel (23:07):
Yeah, yeah.
We have a lot of judgment aboutourselves and how we feel, yeah
, and I try to help them suspendthat yeah About anything.
Rose (23:31):
And having feelings about your feelings Very meta, and
usually those feelings likeguilt and shame.
And the reason why is becauseyou know, I know, that your
movie talks about connectingwith people who have crossed
over, while they're crossed overin this life, you know, through
signs and synchronicities.
So can you talk about your newmovie that you're working on?
Rachel (23:53):
Yes, I can Thank you.
I actually just had my firstplanning meeting with my
director of photography thismorning, so it's very exciting
to you know to start to get anidea of how we're going to shoot
this film etc.
And the title comes from HenryScott Holland's poem "Death is
(24:19):
Nothing at All.
I've Only Slipped Away into theNext Room.
It's a beautiful poem Iactually I will send you a link
of me doing the poem.
Oh beautiful, it's one of myfavorite poems and we actually
used it for my father's funeralas well, and the gist of the
(24:39):
poem is basically I've onlyslipped away into the next room,
I'm around the corner, I'msomewhere very near Right, so
I'm going to tell the story ofthe film Cause.
Rose (24:50):
I love it.
I do too, cause you tell mewhat it's going to be.
Rachel (24:56):
I did tell you yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it.
I hope other people will loveit as much too.
So we're in a cemetery and weare following a very unlikely
trio.
There's an older woman in her60s named Jace, who's very calm
and serene.
We've got a 13-year-old Brian,who's just bebopping around and
doing cartwheels, and other13-year-old Brian who's just
(25:16):
bebopping around and doingcartwheels and other 13-year-old
boy stuff.
And then we've got 16-year-oldLina, who just does not want to
be here, and Jason and Brian aretrying to get Lena to come out
of her shell and enjoy thecemetery, pointing different
things out.
It's very Neil Gaiman, it'scalm and serene and it's
beautiful.
(25:37):
And all of a sudden, Brian'senergy completely changes and he
goes very, very still, and inthe distance we see a woman
approach a grave and he watchesher really intently, turns back
to Lina, winks at her and thengoes to join the woman and when
he's with her, he blows in herhair and she goes.
Oh, Brian, my son, I still missyou so much.
(26:00):
At which point Lena goes wait aminute, we can communicate with
them.
And Jace is like yes, gently, Imean they come here to visit us
, but it could be a lot for them.
So you have to send themsomething that they'll recognize
as being from you.
Like when my sons come to visit, I always send a starling and
(26:21):
they know that I'm nearbybecause it's my favorite bird
and Lena's sister, sarah justthen arrives to put flowers on
Lena's grave and Lena's likewhat do I do?
And Jace is like, well, whatwill she recognize as being you?
And Lina takes a couple ofleaves and tries to make a heart
on her grave Sarah doesn't see.
(26:43):
She tries to take some pebblesand put them in the shape of a
heart Sarah doesn't see.
And finally she takes two whitepetals off of the bouquet that
Sarah has brought and puts themin the shape of a heart on her
grave.
And Sarah sees them and goesyou're here.
Oh my God, let me tell you whatyou, what's going on, oh, it's
been so hard since you've beengone.
And she just starts pouring herheart out and Lina kind of
(27:05):
cracks open and the last shot isus as the audience and the
camera sort of pulling out andwatching the dead and the living
commune together in thecemetery I get.
Rose (27:16):
I just got goosebumps the whole time you're explaining.
That is amazing, thank, you sothe the side.
You can communicate with theother side and they can
communicate with you.
Rachel (27:32):
Yeah.
Rose (27:34):
And it could be just conversation.
Rachel (27:36):
Yeah, yeah it's.
I talk to my dad all the time.
Yeah, I get signs from mynephew.
I don't always talk to mynephew.
I didn't have.
I didn't have a very closerelationship with my nephew for
a number of reasons, including avery acrimonious divorce.
But we call them Ryan the lionand I usually most often find 10
(28:03):
P coins here in London, onethat I found.
I think it's right here.
Rose (28:10):
Yes, it is so.
They're not, they're, they'renot common, right, are they
common?
Oh yeah, 10 pence, I mean sinceCOVID?
Rachel (28:17):
really, really no, because we're becoming a society
which there's a whole other.
That's a whole other podcast,but this is an older one, from
like the night, from the 1990s,and it's got that lion on the
back of it.
Oh wow, I found this last weekand I'm always like, oh, it's
(28:39):
lion, it's lion.
So, yeah, yeah, and I think,yes, oh, wow, with their dead
loved ones, bright, active,evolving, even though that
(29:01):
physical being is gone that youknow, to remind them that you
know they're neurologically partof who you are, but they're
ingrained in you, right, they'reingrained in you absolutely
Right, absolutely, whether ornot they're relatedrained in you
, right, they're ingrained inyou Absolutely Right, absolutely
, whether or not they're relatedto you or not.
Rose (29:22):
Because I even have my dog , my dog, passed away.
Pets are huge, yeah, losing apet is you know.
Family member, family member,and I mean I think I miss, I
don't want to say this.
I miss him so much and I talk tohim all the time and he shows
(29:44):
up like through other pugs inother countries, in like other
ways, like I was in London or inEngland last year and I was at
the Greenwich my last day there,walking to the park and like,
and I'm walking, I'm, like youknow, usually see a pug on my
vacations or when I'm away and Ihaven't seen one.
It's really weird.
And it's walking through thegate.
There's a pug that just walksthrough the gate and I'm like,
(30:07):
oh my goodness, there he is yeahthere he is, so anyway.
So, yeah, I, you know peopletalk about birds being signs,
you know the very typical, butthey can.
Spirit shows up in a lot ofways, I think yeah.
Rachel (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think so too, and I think spirit can show
up in in wisdom, right?
You know, there are times whereI think one of the things that
I've missed a lot about my dadis being able to talk to him,
like when I'm in trouble,because he would be, he was like
strong sturdy, and would belike, okay, this is what we're
(30:48):
going to do, this is how I'mgoing to help you, et cetera.
Um, and then having thatconversation with him just out
loud, now, I can usually clinginto what would dad do, you know
, and I think that that's hisspirit, giving me his wisdom for
(31:09):
sure.
Rose (31:10):
Yeah, I also feel, and I think it's because I know I had
some unresolved I don't want tosay issues with my mother.
But I was young, I was in my20's but I still consider myself
young because most of my lifewith her she was ill and she was
a very quiet person.
But I think, like even now I'mable to resolve some of these
(31:34):
issues with her, even though shehas passed.
I've been able to connect andI'm very intuitive and I've
studied mediumship and all that.
But but even though it's hardto connect with people who are
close to you, I've been able tokind of tune in and and resolve
some of those issues that I'vehad with her.
(31:55):
Yeah, spirit, yeah, I think wecan do that.
I think we can do that too.
Rachel (32:01):
Yeah, give it, give ourselves closure too.
Yeah, um, forgiveness is reallypowerful, and when I I, when I
talk about forgiveness and in mywork, I really I lean into the
dictionary definition offorgiveness, which is to cease
(32:23):
to feel resentment.
Forgiveness is actually asolitary process.
You don't need to talk toanybody to forgive them, you
don't need to let them know thatyou've forgiven them.
You know it is.
It is something that you chooseto do, and I'm not saying it's
(32:47):
easy.
I'm definitely not saying it'seasy and it is really worth it,
because again very healing, andthat's the thing of like what I
was saying with thetransformation.
It's the.
We're going to take yoursuitcase and we're going to open
it, we're going to unpack itand then we're going to look at
(33:10):
each thing and decide whether ornot we're going to put it back
in the suitcase or if we'regoing to leave it here.
Thank it, leave it here andthen close up the suitcase and
keep going.
You know, but things can bepainful to let go of Sometimes.
Our sadness is hard to let goof too, because it makes us feel
(33:31):
close to the person who's died.
And there again, I think, Ithink some of it turns into that
meta having feelings about ourfeelings, having feelings about
the fact that we're not as sadanymore or we're not feeling it
as acutely, um, and that's,that's good.
(33:54):
Yeah, it is good, yeah, yeah.
Rose (33:59):
That's good, yeah, cause you know you were saying that
grief manifests in physicalissues in the body sadness, you
know I.
I know when my mom passed away,my dad, who was by her side
like every day in the hospitalhe was, really took it really
badly and um, eventually he hefound someone and remarried, but
years later he had a heartattack and I knew right away
(34:22):
that was from unprocessed grief.
Yeah, you know, he held on tothat, and not just the grief of
my mom, but also issues he hadwith his own dad.
So it's really important tofind a way to to heal and
process the grief that you'reexperiencing.
Rachel (34:39):
Yeah, you know I, yeah, go ahead, sorry just because
this came up with my dad, youknow, because he had been, he'd
been in the hospital for a while.
I mean we and like we could seethat he was not thriving right,
and there's that liminal spaceof anticipatory grief, a feeling
(34:59):
like the physical body is going.
But I don't feel like I canstart the grieving process until
they're actually dead.
But the truth is you'reactually already processing,
you're already starting togrieve, and when they do die,
there is, yes, acute sadness andthere's relief.
There's relief in the certainty, because uncertainty is a very,
(35:23):
very difficult place to live in.
We as humans, our brain, wedon't like uncertainty, we don't
like it, and it uses a lot ofour emotional, spiritual,
physical energy to stay agile inthat place, especially where
grief is concerned, in thatplace, especially where grief is
concerned.
So I'm sure that your dad andyou probably had some relief
(35:48):
when your mother finally passed,for her own sake and for yours.
Rose (35:54):
Right.
Rachel (35:54):
You know, so yeah.
Rose (35:58):
Yeah, you know I wanted to just talk about briefly.
I have a friend who lost herdaughter tragically several
years ago and you know I can'teven imagine losing a child, but
she, you know, she's in deepmourning all the time.
But one way that she foundconnection is by learning
mediumship.
Oh, tell me more withindividuals who lost children
(36:42):
and they support each otherthrough this mediumship,
readings for each other or theysupport other people who have
children who newly crossed over.
So this constant learning ofbeing in this community is
helping her grieve andcontinuously grieve.
So I just thought that wasreally powerful and she has now
(37:04):
become, she's a medium herself.
She doesn't really work, youknow, widely with others, it's
just in this community but it'sreally really helped her heal
and she realizes that herpurpose, part of her purpose in
this lifetime, is to do this andthat she's also realized the
purpose of her child, althoughdifficult to accept her journey,
(37:27):
was to be in spirit sooner sothat she can help others in
spirit.
And yeah, and you know I wasdoing a reiki session, she's one
of my reiki uh students and andI was actually doing a reiki
session on her with others, myother students around, and her
daughter basically came throughmy hands and was moving my hands
(37:50):
in a certain direction over herheart space and I could feel
the presence of her daughterhere.
While I was doing that, and youknow, even and I didn't say
anything, while I was doing it,and my friend woke up and she
goes.
My daughter was here and I said, yeah, she goes.
I could see her right over myface.
I said that's where my movementwas.
Rachel (38:11):
Oh, my God, that's so beautiful, that's so good.
Rose (38:15):
It's nice to know that there's this connection if
you're open to receiving it andreally you've got to cultivate
that relationship with spirit.
Rachel (38:22):
You do.
You do it and really get to workyou got to cultivate that
relationship with spirit, you do.
You do be afraid of it.
Our lives are really noisy soit can be sometimes really, um,
easy to dismiss.
Yeah, those things you know.
So, finding those quiet thingsand also leaning into your
intuition, leaning into it, be alittle witchy.
(38:44):
Yes, you know it's superpowerful.
My mom is really witchy.
She knows things.
She's like something's notright.
She'll call me what's going on?
And I'm like this just happened20 minutes ago and she's like,
yeah, I felt something, you know, so it's it's just really lean
(39:05):
into that.
It's part of our.
It's part of our experience.
Yeah, the neuroscience of someof it is also of grief.
And that particular connectionis actually kind of interesting
too, cause we as humans,particularly with our loved ones
(39:25):
, we have like a, like a map inour head of where everybody is
right, the people that arematter to us.
Our brain is holding that andwhen one of them is gone, we're
like don't feel safe, right, um,but we've really, uh, you know,
so it's knowing that in ourbrain we're holding that, those
(39:46):
connections.
I know where my mom is.
My mom knows where I am,something's going on.
I'm going to call her, like ifyou can link to those
connections as well out here andthey're in spirit.
Rose (40:00):
They show up, whether in your dreams and I'm talking from
experience whether through youknow signs of some sort that
they're here.
You know, my son had a caraccident a couple of weeks ago
and I have known that my familywatches over my children and he
was okay the car was not, nobodyelse was hurt.
That night I had a dream of mydad and I saw him.
(40:23):
He didn't say anything and thenalso the phone rang and I, in
my dream, I picked up the phoneand I heard him say hello and he
never talks in my dreams and Iwas like, okay, you know, he's
telling me he was here, he wasthere, he was helping.
You know he, it could have beenworse, but no, he helped.
You know, that's how Iinterpreted it, yeah, and so,
yeah, it was really comforting.
(40:43):
And you know I've heard you saybefore it's like you know when
signs show up, you don't lookfor signs or demand signs or
have any expectations, just beaware and open.
Right, yeah, because they couldshow up in any form.
Rachel (40:57):
Yeah, any form.
Yeah, yeah, you might besurprised.
You might be really surprised.
Yeah, that's making me think ofa dream that I had many times.
I had the same dream severaltimes about after my dad died.
Um, because I think that, likefor me, the big thing that I
worried about was that he wasready to go before my mom and we
(41:22):
were ready to let him go, youknow, and worried that we had
tortured him a little bit bytrying to get him going through
all of this rehab, all of theseprocedures, etc.
And I had this dream where Iwas like on a caboose of a train
that was starting to take offand there was my dad, like in a
(41:42):
hospital gown and everything and, and he started running to
catch the train and as he ran hestarted getting healthier and
younger and finally was able tojump onto the train and into my
arms and then he was himselfagain as he was before he died.
And I took that dream.
I had that dream several times,but I took that dream as my dad
(42:03):
saying I'm OK, yeah, ok, and itwas worth it.
It was worth it to try, yeah,I'm.
Rose (42:10):
OK, I love that.
I want to share one more dream,because this is I just find
that they're powerful that thenight my dad passed away, I had
a dream that he was in a like adiner booth opposite my children
and was talking to them.
And then my son the next day,my, my other, my one son they
(42:31):
were eight, nine years old whenmy dad passed, 10 years old.
He said, mom, he, I had a dreamthat you know, no one was in a
booth with us and he was talkingto us, but he had the same
dream.
Rachel (42:43):
I love it.
I love it.
Rose (42:46):
I love it.
Yeah so, and when my dad andyou know my dad passing I
grieved, but because I'velearned and have learned a lot
about grieving, learned aboutconnection with spirit, that my
whole process of grieving was sodifferent, I bet I felt like
more like I.
You know, I know he's here,he's like right here.
Rachel (43:08):
Yeah, you were also really experienced with grief
because of everything that hadhappened with your mom.
A lot of people- not just mymom.
Rose (43:15):
You know, and I know that you know when, when somebody
close to you dies, you look atlife so differently.
Yep, you know, I mean, I alwayssaid, you know, life's too
short.
After my mom died because shewas only 49.
And then I, I, I was she, I wasdiagnosed with breast cancer at
the age of 49.
(43:35):
And I was like, no way, this isgoing to get me.
Yeah, I'm like I got kids toraise.
So, you know, I I kind of gotoff, got through all of that.
But finding strength in myexperience from my mom passing
and not wanting that whole thingto happen to me, I worked
through that.
(43:55):
So you gain a lot of differentI don't know strength, I guess,
superpowers we all havesuperpowers I feel like once
you've been through great like amajor bereavement, you can't
unsee it no right, right.
Rachel (44:13):
So you.
It makes you more compassionatetowards other people who are
grieving, makes you morecompassionate towards yourself
and, like you said, life short,you reprioritize and you get rid
of the stuff that's not servingAbsolutely.
It's a great opportunity toanyway, you know oh absolutely,
you know.
Rose (44:33):
I know that we've talked a lot about grieving from the
perspective of people dying inour lives, but there's also
other times in our lives orexperiences that make us grieve,
and you help people with thatas well.
So, major transitions in lifeCan you talk about that?
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
Rachel (44:53):
I think it is too, I actually.
So I use the definition ofgrief that comes from the grief
recovery method.
Definition of grief that comesfrom the grief recovery method,
which is grief is the set ofconflicting emotions that arise
from a change in, or end of, afamiliar pattern of behavior,
(45:16):
which sounds you know, it's abit of a mouthful, but if you,
if you break it down, it'sactually really interesting.
So it's conflicting emotions,sadness, relief, right, um, but
the the end of something, so theend of a familiar pattern of
behavior or a change.
(45:37):
So, for instance, when I leftthe States and I moved to London
an international move I lost mycountry, I lost my tribe, I
lost my career, I lost my familyI mean, they weren't dead, but
they were not near me anymore Ilost my community, right.
(45:59):
There were a lot of things thatcame to an abrupt end when I
made that huge internationalmove and I grieved it.
You know what I think?
That I was grieving up untilabout two years ago, where I
really was fighting.
Being here was very unhappy,being here for a number of
(46:20):
reasons.
Happy being here for a numberof reasons.
And then I finally was likewell, I need to accept that I'm
here, number one I need to sayit's okay that I feel this way,
and then I need to start findingways to change how I feel about
this place, and I've done thatby working really hard on
(46:42):
forging new relationships withpeople.
But yeah, so grief comes whenthings come to an end.
If you get divorced, there'sgoing to be grief there.
If you lose your job or you getfired or you retire, you know
our work tends to be a majorpart of our identity and when
(47:05):
that stops then there's thisvacuum where that was.
So how do you navigate leaninginto the next chapter and what
do you want it to look like, etcetera.
So I've helped people throughdivorce.
I've helped people through jobredundancies, empty nesting.
(47:27):
I haven't helped anybodythrough empty nesting yet, but
I'm sure my sister is about togo through it, so her son goes
to Uni and it's the last one, soshe's sort of I could see her
kind of going I don't know whatI'm going to do.
(47:49):
I don't know what I'm going todo.
You know, like I like my lifethe way it is, but you know,
should I, should I hate thatword Should I be doing something
different, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Rose (47:56):
Yeah, empty nesting.
You know, people, women, women,I'm going to say women we pour
our heart and soul into raisingour children and then you know
they're not around.
So we need to find a newpurpose, a new hobby, something,
yeah, where we're feelinguseful, yet also enjoy the life
(48:20):
that you know.
We did what we needed to do andnow we have this time.
Yeah, we can do anything wewant.
Rachel (48:28):
You can do anything we want.
Yeah, I think you're right,though I think like, when I
think about, philosophicallyright, what the meaning of life
is Big, big, big, esotericquestion.
I think it's purpose, yeah, youknow, and it's purpose and
relationships, and those are thethings that make us happy or
(48:51):
unhappy.
Money's a necessity justbecause of the structure that we
live in.
But I know people who have anexorbitant amount of money, who
are some of the loneliest peopleyou will ever meet and they're
deeply unhappy and the moneydoesn't change that.
You know.
If anything, it makes themsuspicious of other people.
(49:13):
Why are you around me?
What do you want?
Right, you know, but I lovethat you said purpose, like,
what's your purpose?
Yeah, that's where we findmeaning and that's where we find
healing, solace, connection.
Rose (49:31):
Yeah, and some of us are here to help others like
yourself.
Rachel (49:35):
Like you're here to help others through grief and change
transformation on differentlevels, and you know that is
your purpose yeah I, I actuallyit's interesting because I've
started doing some energy workwith a wonderful woman named deb
driscoll big life, magic, umand in our first conversation,
(50:02):
when we were sort of talkingabout trying to synergize energy
, she's like you know, we've gotour physical energy, our
spiritual energy, our mentalenergy and our hearts energy and
we want to make them sort oflike sing in harmony, sing and
(50:28):
in harmony.
Um, and one of the words that Ihave been avoiding, that I'm
really trying to embrace now, isthat I'm a healer.
Why are you?
Rose (50:37):
trying to.
Why are you trying to avoid?
Rachel (50:39):
I don't know, I don't, I honestly don't know.
It's making me a littleemotional, is it?
Rose (50:45):
because is it?
Do you feel it's a bigresponsibility to be labeled as
a healer, because you know?
Rachel (50:51):
I mean, maybe, maybe it's um, yeah, I honestly, I
mean it's interesting becauseI've been journaling about it.
I'm like what?
I'm not sure why I've beenreluctant to own that word.
You know, part of it, I think,is responsibility, but yeah, I
(51:16):
don't know, it feels like a bigword.
Rose (51:19):
Well, because I've had, I've had, I've also struggled
with that Because heal it.
You know, I practice Reiki, I'ma yoga teacher, I'm a Qigong
teacher and then I realized likemaybe I'm not really the healer
.
I'm not really a healer BecauseI also study shamanism and the
perspective of shamanism is thatwe can heal ourselves.
(51:43):
We are the healers of ourselves.
Okay, so you're guiding otherpeople to help heal themselves?
Yeah, so if healing the wordhealer is not a word that
resonates with you and thatyou're uncomfortable with that,
find another word that thatyou're more comfortable with,
and maybe healing is justsomething like a tool that you
(52:04):
can help other people with, ifthat's yeah, it's just.
Rachel (52:11):
Yeah, I don't know.
I like the word healer, I do, Ido, I do like the word healer.
It is just so interesting, likeI I mean, years of therapy
helped me with this, but Istruggled with the word pride.
Being proud, you know, and Iuse that word a lot.
(52:33):
Now I tell people how proud Iam of them, cause I think it's
really important.
Yes, I think that that is aword that is just that a is
super healing, yes, superhealing.
To know, to be proud ofyourself, um, and to tell other
people that you're proud of them.
Rose (52:54):
Yeah, I think, I think I think one of the things I I
never got from my mom is thosewords, and I know it's because
she never got it from herparents she came from.
You know, she's immigrated herefrom Italy and her parents, you
know.
It was just.
It wasn't that way back thenand I never heard that, although
that's what has made me becomean overachiever and wanting some
(53:17):
validation from other peoplesometimes.
But now I'm like no, no, I knowI don't need that, I know I'm.
I'm like no, no, I know I don'tneed that.
I know I'm, I'm okay, I'm proudof myself, so but yes, yes,
very easy for you to pass alongthat same to my kids cycle of
you know through your mothering.
Yes, right.
(53:37):
Well, that's one thing I haveto say that.
Well, that's one thing I haveto say.
(54:00):
That's that that takesawareness and that takes wanting
to open up those wounds and puta little salt on them and see
what kind of burns the most, andand work from there.
You know, that's where likebeing your own guide, but I've
done a lot of the work, so youknow, I know a lot of the.
But, yes, I love that you're ahealer and you're helping other
(54:23):
people heal and that's soimportant because life is too
short.
We we want to move out of thegrief.
We want to be able to embracetransitions and changes.
Divorce or Empty Nesting or ,or anything, yeah, midlife
crisis yeah, whatever, whateverit is, change is great.
Crisis, yeah, whatever,whatever it is, change is great.
(54:47):
But, yeah, we need to know howto how to embrace that change
and feel good and comfortablewith that.
Yeah, yeah, um, I I want to goback to your movie, your new
movie, somewhere very near, andI know that you're also working
with someone in in um in england, john adams, who is trying to
make.
Yeah, can you talk about that?
I'd rather you say it.
Rachel (55:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So John Adams is I mean, heshies away from the word
activist, but he is an activist.
He has a podcast called AChanging Industry, he's a
funeral director and he recentlypetitioned parliament to
(55:28):
include bereavement in thenational curriculum.
And I partnered with him,because what I want to do with
Somewhere Very Near is to takeit into schools and then lead a
workshop with young people ageappropriate, depending on the
grade, et cetera to have themwatch the movie, and then we'll
(55:49):
do a creative exerciseintroducing these ideas of death
, of bereavement, of grief, etcetera, because I feel like
that's part of it.
Right Is, like you were saying,how is it different with
children?
They're open, they're curious,they don't know.
But if we model to them thatdeath is something to be avoided
(56:11):
, that death is something to befeared, that you don't want to
talk about it, et cetera, that'swhat they will take into
adulthood and that's the copingstrategy that they will then
have to unlearn the first timethey experience an ending of
some sort.
So if we can make it less scary, I guess it's that Buddhist
(56:33):
thing too of like turn towardssuffering, turn towards it, make
it your friend, you know,because it's inevitable, like
your friend, you know, becauseit's inevitable.
It's inevitable and, like yourfriend who now is supporting
other people who have lostchildren through her mediumship,
there are gifts for us.
(56:54):
If we will turn towards otherpeople's suffering right,
they're not going to infect uswith their suffering I mean,
suffering is part of the humancondition but if we can hold
space for them, then we can havepride in ourselves, we can have
compassion for ourselves, likeit just, it just blossoms into
(57:15):
all of these beautiful things,huge ripple effects that it can
have not just on you but on yourcommunity.
And yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
So I'm very excited about thatpartnership with john and um.
I've already got one schoollined up, uh, who are basically
(57:36):
I was like, well, I'll do, I'llcome in and do it for free.
If I could be your, you'll bemy beta and I'm excited.
Rose (57:44):
Yeah, I love that.
It's brilliant and I hope youcan bring it here to the States
because you know, I know my kidshave been.
You know my kids going throughhere and my cousins lost her
husband or daughter, youngteenager.
You know the schools aren'treally doing, they're not doing
anything.
You know they're saying, okay,take a day off and come back to
(58:06):
school, and there's no nothingin place to help support these
kids and it's really sad.
And even the kids, like kidsthat have lost friends in school
, that have died for whateverreason, you know there needs to
be support because it's like youknow, somebody is there one day
and they're not there anymore,you know.
So it needs to happen here inthe schools.
Rachel (58:28):
I always say things need to start young, yeah, yeah,
because then you're giving them,you're giving them resources
that they can lean on.
So it doesn't feel like a shock, right, it's not like oh my God
, like I had no idea this couldhappen and you know.
Instead it's like, oh yeah, ok,so at some point I'm going to
(58:51):
deal with this and maybe itdoesn't feel so scary.
Rose (58:56):
It feel really scary help you with trying to bring it here
, at least in my little smalltown.
Yeah, I will definitelydefinitely help you with that,
because we need to get this outto help the kids to help anyone
yeah, that would be amazing.
Rachel (59:13):
I would love that.
Rose (59:13):
I would love, love, love, love that maybe that's our
connection, because I was, Ifelt this the moment I met you
and there was like these weirdsynchro, not weird, I don'tities
, yes, serendipities, and youknow and I was like, okay, just
thought about we can worktogether.
I was like, love collaboratingwith people.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share or add or talk
about before we wrap this up?
Rachel (59:36):
no, just thank you so much for sharing as much of your
story in this as well, and yeah, yeah, I'm so glad we're
connected and I really enjoyedthis chat, me too.
Rose (59:53):
I wish you success with your new film and your journey
as a healer.
Thank you, and this is only thebeginning, because you are just
a beautiful shining light withbeautiful energy and you're
doing amazing things.
So thank you for being here.
Rachel (01:00:09):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity.
Rose (01:00:19):
Thank you for joining me here on Chat Off The Mat.
I hope these stories haveinspired you.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please share it with those who
might benefit.
Your support helps me spreadawareness about the power of
transformative healing.
Stay connected with me onsocial media.
Reach out with your own healingstories or topics you'd like me
(01:00:40):
to explore in future episodes.
Your voice is an essential partof this community.
I hope that your healingjourney is filled with
self-discovery, curiosity,resilience and the unwavering
belief in the power that resideswithin you.
Until next time, I'm RoseWippich, wishing you a journey
(01:01:02):
filled with love, laughter andendless possibilities.
Welcome to Chat Off The Mat, the podcast that explores
the transformative journey ofhealing and self-discovery where
energy, spirituality, mind andbody intersect.
Hi, I'm your host, Rose Wippage, and I invite you to join me
and explore ways to invite moreholistic practices into your
life.
(00:23):
I will feature experts andpractitioners who provide
insights, tips and practicaladvice.
From Reiki to Qigong, chakrabalancing to shamanism, this
podcast will be your guide tounderstanding how these
practices can lead to moreharmony and greater energy.
Whether you're seeking stressrelief, emotional balance or a
(00:46):
deeper connection to yourauthentic self, chat Off the Mat
provide you with insights andinspiration.
Let's start discovering thepossibilities that lie within
you.
Today.
On Chat Off the Mat, I welcomeRachel Fowler.
Rachel is a storyteller,whether as an actor, director,
(01:10):
writer or coach.
She celebrates human storiesand the power they have to heal,
reveal hidden truths and totransform.
She's passionate about makingthe world more grief, literate
and more compassionate, bothtowards ourselves and each other
.
Welcome Rachel.
Rachel (01:28):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Rose (01:30):
So grateful that you're here.
Yes, thank you for being here.
I'd like to start out by askingyou to tell our listeners a
little bit about your backgroundand also the path that led you
to do what you're doing todayand what it is that you do.
Rachel (01:46):
Amazing, amazing.
It's interesting.
I feel like I have been becauseI'm an artist, I'm a little bit
of a jack of all trades.
So I'm an actor, I'm afilmmaker, I'm a theater maker,
(02:08):
I'm a filmmaker, I'm a theatermaker and I moved to London nine
years ago and sort of had toabandon a lot of that.
We moved here for my husband'sjob and at 45, I had to reinvent
myself, which was reallychallenging.
A lot of endings, a lot ofgrief over those endings, a lot
of grief over those endings.
And about a year after we movedhere, my nephew, who was 13
(02:36):
years old, died on my daughter'sbirthday and that sort of sent
this huge ripple effect throughmy whole family, obviously
through my life, and all of mycreative work started being
about grief.
Everything I was writing wasabout grief and I had started
coaching, doing executivecoaching, which I really loved,
and COVID hit and I was like,wow, the world is grieving.
(03:01):
You know, we were grieving thelack of normalcy.
We were grieving, obviously,death because there was so much
happening I mean so much and Iwas like, ah, here it is.
This is what I'm being calledto do is to use my own personal
experience with grief to holdspace for other people and to
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help people get more comfortablewith holding space for each
other, because I think thatthat's sort of what I mean by
wanting to make the world alittle bit more grief literate
is getting people to set asidetheir own discomfort in service
of someone else's suffering.
So now I'm I'm predominantly agrief coach grief and loss coach
(03:51):
and I also do films.
I make films and they're allabout grief and yeah, did.
Rose (04:02):
I answer your question.
Rachel (04:03):
I think I did.
Rose (04:03):
Yes, you, you did.
Thank you so much for doingthat.
You answered all my questions,um, and I know that let's talk
about your film, because I knowyou've put a lot of energy, time
and um around making your films, so the a personal loss is what
inspired you to write andproduce and direct your film
Stillness.
(04:24):
Yeah, could you talk about thatmovie for us please?
Rachel (04:28):
Yeah, so the loss was actually the loss of my nephew
and he died on my daughter'sbirthday, like I said.
So I was trying to untanglethat great joy, great sorrow,
and I wrote a short story.
So the story of Stillness isabout a photographer who comes
to a hospital to takeremembrance portraits for a
(04:53):
family that have just suffered astillbirth, and I really wanted
to capture the witnessing.
And again, it's that holdingspace, holding space for other
people who are in pain.
So it's really thephotographer's story, this woman
(05:15):
who comes for her own reasons,her own personal experience with
loss, to lend her time, herenergy, her art, her witnessing
to other people who arestruggling and who are in pain
and help them find a connectionand some healing with it.
So, yeah, that's stillness, didyou?
Rose (05:37):
watch it.
I did watch it.
It was very powerful and Icouldn't stop crying.
And it's not like there were alot, there was a lot of words.
It was almost powerful throughthe lack of words, through the
lack of dialogue and I knowyou've graciously offered to
allow me to put the link in theshow notes for people to watch.
(05:59):
Very powerful.
Anybody experiencing any typeof loss can really benefit from
watching it.
And yeah, it was, it was, itwas great, it was, it was
wonderful and it's a short film.
I know it's not 11 minutes long.
Yes 11 powerful minutes.
Yeah, so let's talk about the.
(06:21):
Or you say so, you write andyou say that you use creative
space to help people heal.
Can you talk about what that is?
How do you work with people byusing creativity to process
their grief?
Besides the movie, are thereany?
Rachel (06:33):
other ways.
We all have that capacity toimagine, which is where our
creativity comes from, and Ithink that sometimes over time,
because of the way that we'resocialized, the way that we're
(06:58):
educated, the jobs that we get,we sort of lose our way into it.
So a lot of what I do is to tryto guide back into that
imaginative state, because I dobelieve that there's so much
healing that can take placethere.
And when you're going throughgrief it's transformative, right
.
It changes you and changes whoyou are, and being able to
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imagine what you want your lifeto look like on the other side
of grief, being able to imaginehow you want to feel, imagine
how you want to be living, canbe really, really useful.
So a lot of what working withme looks like is me sort of
meeting you where you're at interms of what interests you in
(07:41):
your creativity.
The go-to is writing, sothere'll be journal prompts.
I'll give something like that.
I had one client who she saidthat she couldn't write because
it just it felt likeoverwhelming.
So for her, I asked her to writea haiku at the end of every day
(08:02):
, to come up with, you know, areally synthesized and powerful,
rich, 17 syllables toencapsulate what had happened to
her that day, and she foundthat really really useful as a
way of processing right, puttingit to language and some concise
language, processing right,putting it to language and some
(08:26):
concise language.
Another client was a painterand she was really struggling
with a particular event thathappened with her and her wife
before her wife died, and so Iwas like all right, I want you
to paint the event.
And she came back with a comicbook, you know, which was
amazing, really, really amazing.
It was like a graphic novel, amini graphic novel.
(08:49):
In like four or five pages sortof went through this, this
particular event.
Um, so it's really kind offinding what works for you and
then I give you prompts aroundyour emotions and the events
that you are trying to processand trying to untangle.
And the untangling is aboutputting down things that you
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don't want to take with you intothe future and then really
holding on to and taking care ofthe things that you do want to
take with you into the future.
Rose (09:21):
So people process grief differently.
Some people think they'reprocessing grief, but they're
actually they're not, they'realmost pushing it away.
And then, perhaps later on,cancer.
So I saw her slowly demiseafter like was eight months.
(09:47):
So I was more distracted afterher death and it was like till
six months later when I reallystarted experiencing like anger
and like not feeling stable inmy environment.
My work was almost it was, mywork was good because I focused
(10:07):
out.
It was a distraction, buteverything else started
crumbling around me and then Iwent to see someone, a therapist
, who said you know that ittypically takes a few months
later because when you'regrieving at the time of, you
know the, the funeral or thewake, you know you're surrounded
by community and then afterthat you're kind of left alone.
(10:29):
What are your thoughts aroundthat and do you feel that that
is true or do you have any otherthoughts around?
You know that time period thatpasses like why it happens or
what to do when that happensperiod that passes, like why it
happens or what to do when thathappens.
Rachel (10:49):
Yeah, you're absolutely right that everybody grieves in
their own way and everybody'sgrief is unique because
everybody's relationship towhatever they've lost is unique.
Right, there are someuniversalities because we're
humans, right, so we have thesame physiological, neurological
makeup, basic makeup, and sothere are certain things that
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will be sort of uniform acrosspeople's experiences.
You know, some of it alsodepends on your culture, right,
if you've got a culture thatembraces death, you know, like I
think of the irish where youlike go to a wake and you like
have a party around the deadbody, you know there's something
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that's really celebratory aboutthat, but it's also a like
they've got an active culture ofkeening, which is the physical
expression of your grief, right,right.
Right, we've sort of separateddeath, made it like a medical
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event to be avoided at all costs, when actually it's the most
predictable thing that we'llever experience, and I think
that there's a lot ofbureaucracy around death in
particular.
So there's a lot of bureaucracyaround death in particular.
So there's a lot of things tokeep you busy and not actively
sitting with your grief.
Right, you're the estates inescrow.
(12:15):
You've got to manage thefuneral.
You've got to make arrangementsfor this and for that, and for
this, um, so it can sort.
It can be a distraction, awelcome distraction as well.
Giving you a task, right, um,makes me think of that.
Uh, colonel Brandon from Senseand Sensibility, give me a task,
(12:38):
miss, eleanor, else I go mad.
You know, um, and those taskscan be useful because it can
feel really overwhelming.
Grief also manifests itselfphysically in the body, like
depression, yes, the brain fog,the physical fatigue, the
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sadness, right the lethargy, etcetera, and all of that is
trying to deal with this absence, with this loss.
I think at some point mostpeople sort of naturally come to
the active processing of theirgrief and if you're lucky,
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you've got a vibrant communityaround you that will support you
regardless.
I know, when my father died, mymother, I mean my mother's
community is so beautiful andthat community that you know you
feel like maybe leaves a coupleof weeks after the funeral and
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everybody kind of gets on withtheir life.
This community was like, no,we're here, year later, we're
still here.
We're here, you know, likeinviting her out, making sure
that she was doing things, allof this stuff.
We're still here.
We're going to talk aboutMichael, we're going to talk
about all of these things.
Rose (14:01):
I think that's important.
Rachel (14:03):
I think it's so important, so's important.
I think it's so important, soso important.
I heard a beautiful story, too,that I want to share, and then
I have one more thing to sayabout that question Sure, the
floor is yours.
So I heard about this man and Idon't know his name.
I need to find his name becauseI want to write to him.
He is a funeral celebrant andhe typically does funerals for
(14:27):
people that he does not know,and one of the things that he
says to the entire congregationis, or to whoever's at the
funeral he'll say the familydoesn't know you're here, right?
They are in the middle of thisbig big thing and they may not
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remember that you said somethingto them today.
They may not remember that youwere, that you showed up, et
cetera.
So, on your way out, I want youto pick up one of those
matchboxes that I've made, thematchbox that has the face of
the person who's died on it, andI want you to throw it in your
(15:12):
junk drawer.
And three months from now, fourmonths from now, when you're
opening up your junk drawerlooking for something or looking
for matches, that's when you'llsee that and that's when they
need you.
That's when I want you to reachout to them, and I just think
that's so brilliant, it's sobrilliant.
We don't intentionally forget.
We just have our own lives thatare complicated and nuanced,
(15:32):
and our own sufferings, and ourown, you know.
But what a beautiful littlereminder.
Yeah, reach out to them, sayhello, how are you doing?
Can I take you for a coffee orfor lunch?
Rose (15:47):
I think I think we forget.
I know you want to say onething, but I think I think we're
uncomfortable sometimes assomeone who's doesn't know what
to say to someone who just lostsomeone Like you know I've heard
you say this before on someother podcasts that you know we
or everybody says what can I do?
Tell me what I, what, what,what do I need, what I need to
do for you, but we don't evenknow what that is or what to
(16:10):
expect if they don't know how to.
You know that that, so.
So I think that's a beautifulthing and and coming across it
three, four months later, whenthey're really probably grieving
a lot or didn't realize theywere, and feeling isolated, Like
you said.
Rachel (16:24):
You know, I felt busy and it was a distraction, et
cetera.
And then suddenly, boom, itkind of hit me and you feel
lonely for connection, and atthat point you're like is it too
late to ask people to help methrough my grief?
Rose (16:39):
You know, because it's been six months.
Right, yeah, Because a lot oftimes people don't want to reach
out and ask other people causethey feel they're a burden or
it's it's their cross to bear ornot someone else's.
But but having a community, Ithink it's really important.
So people out there that arelistening, you know, creating a
community to help support peoplewho are grieving in any
(17:00):
capacity is really superimportant.
Yeah, said you had somethingelse you wanted to share.
Rachel (17:07):
Yeah, I wanted.
No.
I don't remember what I wasgoing to say.
I was going to no, no, it'sfine, it'll probably come back
to me.
But the thing that I love aboutthe that what you just said, you
know, cause that does actuallycome up quite a bit the uh
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feeling worried that they'regoing to be a burden if they
bring up their grief to a friend, et cetera.
Um, and so they choose toisolate themselves, they choose
not to talk about it, and what Ithink they don't, most people
don't realize, is that peoplewant to be helpful, people want
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to hear your story, people wantto witness.
It actually gives the listenera lot too.
It's not just the person who'sgrieving, who's giving their
story, the person who'slistening and showing up for
somebody else.
There's a lot of gratitude, alot of pride, a lot of like
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beautiful things that we receivewhen we can do that for someone
else too.
And for those who feel like,well, I don't want to reach out
because I don't want to upsetthem Guess what they're already
upset.
You reaching out to them andasking them how they're doing
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will only They'll either say I'mgood, thank you for reaching
out.
I don't really want to openthat can of worms.
I don't really want to talkabout that, but they'll be so
grateful that you reached out.
Or they'll say yes, please, CanI, can we please chat?
Yeah, and you didn't upset them.
If they cry, they're upsetbecause of what they've lost or
(18:53):
who they've lost, you know.
Rose (18:54):
So yeah, lost, you know.
So, yeah, and there's different.
You know, sometimes there's aloss of a husband and then
there's the wife, and then youhave the children, and then the
wife is trying to be strong forthe children.
So that processing that griefin that house is even more, I
don't want to say complicated,but there's more layers, right.
(19:17):
So you know, I was justthinking about that because I
know people who have lost theirhusbands and their their, their
wives are there or even husbands, and they have.
You know, they have to processtheir own grief and then their
children and they have toexplain to them.
And you know, do you ever findthat?
I don't know if you've workedwith children do children
process it differently, or istheir capacity to process it
(19:38):
differently?
Rachel (19:40):
So children and it sort of depends on how old we're
talking about, right, very youngchildren are curious, very open
.
Oh, what's that?
I don't know what that is.
You know all of the fear aroundlike how our children are going
to react.
That's on us.
Rose (20:01):
Yeah.
Rachel (20:01):
That's because that's what we fear we are going to do.
You know how we are going toreact and we're scared that we
can't fix it, and the truth iswe can't.
You know, the only way to theother side is through.
When my father died, it wasreally interesting.
I am, my daughter, was three,and we had brought him home to
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die.
He had, he had had a sort ofcascading health issues and um
failure to thrive and finally,after like three months in rehab
, my mom was like he's ready togo, let's bring him home.
And he was in our living roomfor about six days.
We cared for his body, we, youknow, gave him morphine, we
(20:49):
talked around, you know, we allhung out in the living room and
talked with him and my daughterwould come and, like, play with
his hand and, you know, leave,et cetera.
And he died early one morning,may 4th, and we all were really
upset, obviously, and we crackedopen a bottle of champagne and
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started telling stories abouthim and laughing and crying, and
I was so nervous to tell mythree-year-old that he was gone
and so I postponed it andpostponed it and postponed it
Like he died at like 7.30 in themorning and then I don't think
I told her until about 3 pm andshe basically I was like, so you
(21:37):
know, greg Red's dead, he'sgone.
And she's like, oh, you know.
And she goes over to the bodyand she touches his hand and
she's like, oh, he's cold.
And then she put the blanketover his hand and she wanted to
give him a kiss.
So I lifted her up and she gavehim a kiss and then she was
like, okay, went off to play.
Yeah, later that afternoon,though, at six o'clock, when the
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funeral home came to pick himup and take him that's when she
got upset.
She was like, who is thisstranger taking him away?
And all of us were like, oh, oh, of course, of course, of
course that's when she would beupset.
Right, you know that childrenare much more open and if we can
(22:23):
, if we can model the fact thatwe're sad and it's awful and it
hurts, but we're going to beokay, that's giving our children
so many tools to deal with anykind of heartache, any kind of
uncertainty, any kind.
Rose (22:44):
And I know you, you work with people to you know, help
them have more compassiontowards either people who are
(23:05):
grieving or themselves.
Rachel (23:07):
Yeah, yeah.
We have a lot of judgment aboutourselves and how we feel, yeah
, and I try to help them suspendthat yeah About anything.
Rose (23:31):
And having feelings about your feelings Very meta, and
usually those feelings likeguilt and shame.
And the reason why is becauseyou know, I know, that your
movie talks about connectingwith people who have crossed
over, while they're crossed overin this life, you know, through
signs and synchronicities.
So can you talk about your newmovie that you're working on?
Rachel (23:53):
Yes, I can Thank you.
I actually just had my firstplanning meeting with my
director of photography thismorning, so it's very exciting
to you know to start to get anidea of how we're going to shoot
this film etc.
And the title comes from HenryScott Holland's poem "Death is
(24:19):
Nothing at All.
I've Only Slipped Away into theNext Room.
It's a beautiful poem Iactually I will send you a link
of me doing the poem.
Oh beautiful, it's one of myfavorite poems and we actually
used it for my father's funeralas well, and the gist of the
(24:39):
poem is basically I've onlyslipped away into the next room,
I'm around the corner, I'msomewhere very near Right, so
I'm going to tell the story ofthe film Cause.
Rose (24:50):
I love it.
I do too, cause you tell mewhat it's going to be.
Rachel (24:56):
I did tell you yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it.
I hope other people will loveit as much too.
So we're in a cemetery and weare following a very unlikely
trio.
There's an older woman in her60s named Jace, who's very calm
and serene.
We've got a 13-year-old Brian,who's just bebopping around and
doing cartwheels, and other13-year-old Brian who's just
(25:16):
bebopping around and doingcartwheels and other 13-year-old
boy stuff.
And then we've got 16-year-oldLina, who just does not want to
be here, and Jason and Brian aretrying to get Lena to come out
of her shell and enjoy thecemetery, pointing different
things out.
It's very Neil Gaiman, it'scalm and serene and it's
beautiful.
(25:37):
And all of a sudden, Brian'senergy completely changes and he
goes very, very still, and inthe distance we see a woman
approach a grave and he watchesher really intently, turns back
to Lina, winks at her and thengoes to join the woman and when
he's with her, he blows in herhair and she goes.
Oh, Brian, my son, I still missyou so much.
(26:00):
At which point Lena goes wait aminute, we can communicate with
them.
And Jace is like yes, gently, Imean they come here to visit us
, but it could be a lot for them.
So you have to send themsomething that they'll recognize
as being from you.
Like when my sons come to visit, I always send a starling and
(26:21):
they know that I'm nearbybecause it's my favorite bird
and Lena's sister, sarah justthen arrives to put flowers on
Lena's grave and Lena's likewhat do I do?
And Jace is like, well, whatwill she recognize as being you?
And Lina takes a couple ofleaves and tries to make a heart
on her grave Sarah doesn't see.
(26:43):
She tries to take some pebblesand put them in the shape of a
heart Sarah doesn't see.
And finally she takes two whitepetals off of the bouquet that
Sarah has brought and puts themin the shape of a heart on her
grave.
And Sarah sees them and goesyou're here.
Oh my God, let me tell you whatyou, what's going on, oh, it's
been so hard since you've beengone.
And she just starts pouring herheart out and Lina kind of
(27:05):
cracks open and the last shot isus as the audience and the
camera sort of pulling out andwatching the dead and the living
commune together in thecemetery I get.
Rose (27:16):
I just got goosebumps the whole time you're explaining.
That is amazing, thank, you sothe the side.
You can communicate with theother side and they can
communicate with you.
Rachel (27:32):
Yeah.
Rose (27:34):
And it could be just conversation.
Rachel (27:36):
Yeah, yeah it's.
I talk to my dad all the time.
Yeah, I get signs from mynephew.
I don't always talk to mynephew.
I didn't have.
I didn't have a very closerelationship with my nephew for
a number of reasons, including avery acrimonious divorce.
But we call them Ryan the lionand I usually most often find 10
(28:03):
P coins here in London, onethat I found.
I think it's right here.
Rose (28:10):
Yes, it is so.
They're not, they're, they'renot common, right, are they
common?
Oh yeah, 10 pence, I mean sinceCOVID?
Rachel (28:17):
really, really no, because we're becoming a society
which there's a whole other.
That's a whole other podcast,but this is an older one, from
like the night, from the 1990s,and it's got that lion on the
back of it.
Oh wow, I found this last weekand I'm always like, oh, it's
(28:39):
lion, it's lion.
So, yeah, yeah, and I think,yes, oh, wow, with their dead
loved ones, bright, active,evolving, even though that
(29:01):
physical being is gone that youknow, to remind them that you
know they're neurologically partof who you are, but they're
ingrained in you, right, they'reingrained in you absolutely
Right, absolutely, whether ornot they're relatedrained in you
, right, they're ingrained inyou Absolutely Right, absolutely
, whether or not they're relatedto you or not.
Rose (29:22):
Because I even have my dog , my dog, passed away.
Pets are huge, yeah, losing apet is you know.
Family member, family member,and I mean I think I miss, I
don't want to say this.
I miss him so much and I talk tohim all the time and he shows
(29:44):
up like through other pugs inother countries, in like other
ways, like I was in London or inEngland last year and I was at
the Greenwich my last day there,walking to the park and like,
and I'm walking, I'm, like youknow, usually see a pug on my
vacations or when I'm away and Ihaven't seen one.
It's really weird.
And it's walking through thegate.
There's a pug that just walksthrough the gate and I'm like,
(30:07):
oh my goodness, there he is yeahthere he is, so anyway.
So, yeah, I, you know peopletalk about birds being signs,
you know the very typical, butthey can.
Spirit shows up in a lot ofways, I think yeah.
Rachel (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think so too, and I think spirit can show
up in in wisdom, right?
You know, there are times whereI think one of the things that
I've missed a lot about my dadis being able to talk to him,
like when I'm in trouble,because he would be, he was like
strong sturdy, and would belike, okay, this is what we're
(30:48):
going to do, this is how I'mgoing to help you, et cetera.
Um, and then having thatconversation with him just out
loud, now, I can usually clinginto what would dad do, you know
, and I think that that's hisspirit, giving me his wisdom for
(31:09):
sure.
Rose (31:10):
Yeah, I also feel, and I think it's because I know I had
some unresolved I don't want tosay issues with my mother.
But I was young, I was in my20's but I still consider myself
young because most of my lifewith her she was ill and she was
a very quiet person.
But I think, like even now I'mable to resolve some of these
(31:34):
issues with her, even though shehas passed.
I've been able to connect andI'm very intuitive and I've
studied mediumship and all that.
But but even though it's hardto connect with people who are
close to you, I've been able tokind of tune in and and resolve
some of those issues that I'vehad with her.
(31:55):
Yeah, spirit, yeah, I think wecan do that.
I think we can do that too.
Rachel (32:01):
Yeah, give it, give ourselves closure too.
Yeah, um, forgiveness is reallypowerful, and when I I, when I
talk about forgiveness and in mywork, I really I lean into the
dictionary definition offorgiveness, which is to cease
(32:23):
to feel resentment.
Forgiveness is actually asolitary process.
You don't need to talk toanybody to forgive them, you
don't need to let them know thatyou've forgiven them.
You know it is.
It is something that you chooseto do, and I'm not saying it's
(32:47):
easy.
I'm definitely not saying it'seasy and it is really worth it,
because again very healing, andthat's the thing of like what I
was saying with thetransformation.
It's the.
We're going to take yoursuitcase and we're going to open
it, we're going to unpack itand then we're going to look at
(33:10):
each thing and decide whether ornot we're going to put it back
in the suitcase or if we'regoing to leave it here.
Thank it, leave it here andthen close up the suitcase and
keep going.
You know, but things can bepainful to let go of Sometimes.
Our sadness is hard to let goof too, because it makes us feel
(33:31):
close to the person who's died.
And there again, I think, Ithink some of it turns into that
meta having feelings about ourfeelings, having feelings about
the fact that we're not as sadanymore or we're not feeling it
as acutely, um, and that's,that's good.
(33:54):
Yeah, it is good, yeah, yeah.
Rose (33:59):
That's good, yeah, cause you know you were saying that
grief manifests in physicalissues in the body sadness, you
know I.
I know when my mom passed away,my dad, who was by her side
like every day in the hospitalhe was, really took it really
badly and um, eventually he hefound someone and remarried, but
years later he had a heartattack and I knew right away
(34:22):
that was from unprocessed grief.
Yeah, you know, he held on tothat, and not just the grief of
my mom, but also issues he hadwith his own dad.
So it's really important tofind a way to to heal and
process the grief that you'reexperiencing.
Rachel (34:39):
Yeah, you know I, yeah, go ahead, sorry just because
this came up with my dad, youknow, because he had been, he'd
been in the hospital for a while.
I mean we and like we could seethat he was not thriving right,
and there's that liminal spaceof anticipatory grief, a feeling
(34:59):
like the physical body is going.
But I don't feel like I canstart the grieving process until
they're actually dead.
But the truth is you'reactually already processing,
you're already starting togrieve, and when they do die,
there is, yes, acute sadness andthere's relief.
There's relief in the certainty, because uncertainty is a very,
(35:23):
very difficult place to live in.
We as humans, our brain, wedon't like uncertainty, we don't
like it, and it uses a lot ofour emotional, spiritual,
physical energy to stay agile inthat place, especially where
grief is concerned, in thatplace, especially where grief is
concerned.
So I'm sure that your dad andyou probably had some relief
(35:48):
when your mother finally passed,for her own sake and for yours.
Rose (35:54):
Right.
Rachel (35:54):
You know, so yeah.
Rose (35:58):
Yeah, you know I wanted to just talk about briefly.
I have a friend who lost herdaughter tragically several
years ago and you know I can'teven imagine losing a child, but
she, you know, she's in deepmourning all the time.
But one way that she foundconnection is by learning
mediumship.
Oh, tell me more withindividuals who lost children
(36:42):
and they support each otherthrough this mediumship,
readings for each other or theysupport other people who have
children who newly crossed over.
So this constant learning ofbeing in this community is
helping her grieve andcontinuously grieve.
So I just thought that wasreally powerful and she has now
(37:04):
become, she's a medium herself.
She doesn't really work, youknow, widely with others, it's
just in this community but it'sreally really helped her heal
and she realizes that herpurpose, part of her purpose in
this lifetime, is to do this andthat she's also realized the
purpose of her child, althoughdifficult to accept her journey,
(37:27):
was to be in spirit sooner sothat she can help others in
spirit.
And yeah, and you know I wasdoing a reiki session, she's one
of my reiki uh students and andI was actually doing a reiki
session on her with others, myother students around, and her
daughter basically came throughmy hands and was moving my hands
(37:50):
in a certain direction over herheart space and I could feel
the presence of her daughterhere.
While I was doing that, and youknow, even and I didn't say
anything, while I was doing it,and my friend woke up and she
goes.
My daughter was here and I said, yeah, she goes.
I could see her right over myface.
I said that's where my movementwas.
Rachel (38:11):
Oh, my God, that's so beautiful, that's so good.
Rose (38:15):
It's nice to know that there's this connection if
you're open to receiving it andreally you've got to cultivate
that relationship with spirit.
Rachel (38:22):
You do.
You do it and really get to workyou got to cultivate that
relationship with spirit, you do.
You do be afraid of it.
Our lives are really noisy soit can be sometimes really, um,
easy to dismiss.
Yeah, those things you know.
So, finding those quiet thingsand also leaning into your
intuition, leaning into it, be alittle witchy.
(38:44):
Yes, you know it's superpowerful.
My mom is really witchy.
She knows things.
She's like something's notright.
She'll call me what's going on?
And I'm like this just happened20 minutes ago and she's like,
yeah, I felt something, you know, so it's it's just really lean
(39:05):
into that.
It's part of our.
It's part of our experience.
Yeah, the neuroscience of someof it is also of grief.
And that particular connectionis actually kind of interesting
too, cause we as humans,particularly with our loved ones
(39:25):
, we have like a, like a map inour head of where everybody is
right, the people that arematter to us.
Our brain is holding that andwhen one of them is gone, we're
like don't feel safe, right, um,but we've really, uh, you know,
so it's knowing that in ourbrain we're holding that, those
(39:46):
connections.
I know where my mom is.
My mom knows where I am,something's going on.
I'm going to call her, like ifyou can link to those
connections as well out here andthey're in spirit.
Rose (40:00):
They show up, whether in your dreams and I'm talking from
experience whether through youknow signs of some sort that
they're here.
You know, my son had a caraccident a couple of weeks ago
and I have known that my familywatches over my children and he
was okay the car was not, nobodyelse was hurt.
That night I had a dream of mydad and I saw him.
(40:23):
He didn't say anything and thenalso the phone rang and I, in
my dream, I picked up the phoneand I heard him say hello and he
never talks in my dreams and Iwas like, okay, you know, he's
telling me he was here, he wasthere, he was helping.
You know he, it could have beenworse, but no, he helped.
You know, that's how Iinterpreted it, yeah, and so,
yeah, it was really comforting.
(40:43):
And you know I've heard you saybefore it's like you know when
signs show up, you don't lookfor signs or demand signs or
have any expectations, just beaware and open.
Right, yeah, because they couldshow up in any form.
Rachel (40:57):
Yeah, any form.
Yeah, yeah, you might besurprised.
You might be really surprised.
Yeah, that's making me think ofa dream that I had many times.
I had the same dream severaltimes about after my dad died.
Um, because I think that, likefor me, the big thing that I
worried about was that he wasready to go before my mom and we
(41:22):
were ready to let him go, youknow, and worried that we had
tortured him a little bit bytrying to get him going through
all of this rehab, all of theseprocedures, etc.
And I had this dream where Iwas like on a caboose of a train
that was starting to take offand there was my dad, like in a
(41:42):
hospital gown and everything and, and he started running to
catch the train and as he ran hestarted getting healthier and
younger and finally was able tojump onto the train and into my
arms and then he was himselfagain as he was before he died.
And I took that dream.
I had that dream several times,but I took that dream as my dad
(42:03):
saying I'm OK, yeah, ok, and itwas worth it.
It was worth it to try, yeah,I'm.
Rose (42:10):
OK, I love that.
I want to share one more dream,because this is I just find
that they're powerful that thenight my dad passed away, I had
a dream that he was in a like adiner booth opposite my children
and was talking to them.
And then my son the next day,my, my other, my one son they
(42:31):
were eight, nine years old whenmy dad passed, 10 years old.
He said, mom, he, I had a dreamthat you know, no one was in a
booth with us and he was talkingto us, but he had the same
dream.
Rachel (42:43):
I love it.
I love it.
Rose (42:46):
I love it.
Yeah so, and when my dad andyou know my dad passing I
grieved, but because I'velearned and have learned a lot
about grieving, learned aboutconnection with spirit, that my
whole process of grieving was sodifferent, I bet I felt like
more like I.
You know, I know he's here,he's like right here.
Rachel (43:08):
Yeah, you were also really experienced with grief
because of everything that hadhappened with your mom.
A lot of people- not just mymom.
Rose (43:15):
You know, and I know that you know when, when somebody
close to you dies, you look atlife so differently.
Yep, you know, I mean, I alwayssaid, you know, life's too
short.
After my mom died because shewas only 49.
And then I, I, I was she, I wasdiagnosed with breast cancer at
the age of 49.
(43:35):
And I was like, no way, this isgoing to get me.
Yeah, I'm like I got kids toraise.
So, you know, I I kind of gotoff, got through all of that.
But finding strength in myexperience from my mom passing
and not wanting that whole thingto happen to me, I worked
through that.
(43:55):
So you gain a lot of differentI don't know strength, I guess,
superpowers we all havesuperpowers I feel like once
you've been through great like amajor bereavement, you can't
unsee it no right, right.
Rachel (44:13):
So you.
It makes you more compassionatetowards other people who are
grieving, makes you morecompassionate towards yourself
and, like you said, life short,you reprioritize and you get rid
of the stuff that's not servingAbsolutely.
It's a great opportunity toanyway, you know oh absolutely,
you know.
Rose (44:33):
I know that we've talked a lot about grieving from the
perspective of people dying inour lives, but there's also
other times in our lives orexperiences that make us grieve,
and you help people with thatas well.
So, major transitions in lifeCan you talk about that?
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
Rachel (44:53):
I think it is too, I actually.
So I use the definition ofgrief that comes from the grief
recovery method.
Definition of grief that comesfrom the grief recovery method,
which is grief is the set ofconflicting emotions that arise
from a change in, or end of, afamiliar pattern of behavior,
(45:16):
which sounds you know, it's abit of a mouthful, but if you,
if you break it down, it'sactually really interesting.
So it's conflicting emotions,sadness, relief, right, um, but
the the end of something, so theend of a familiar pattern of
behavior or a change.
(45:37):
So, for instance, when I leftthe States and I moved to London
an international move I lost mycountry, I lost my tribe, I
lost my career, I lost my familyI mean, they weren't dead, but
they were not near me anymore Ilost my community, right.
(45:59):
There were a lot of things thatcame to an abrupt end when I
made that huge internationalmove and I grieved it.
You know what I think?
That I was grieving up untilabout two years ago, where I
really was fighting.
Being here was very unhappy,being here for a number of
(46:20):
reasons.
Happy being here for a numberof reasons.
And then I finally was likewell, I need to accept that I'm
here, number one I need to sayit's okay that I feel this way,
and then I need to start findingways to change how I feel about
this place, and I've done thatby working really hard on
(46:42):
forging new relationships withpeople.
But yeah, so grief comes whenthings come to an end.
If you get divorced, there'sgoing to be grief there.
If you lose your job or you getfired or you retire, you know
our work tends to be a majorpart of our identity and when
(47:05):
that stops then there's thisvacuum where that was.
So how do you navigate leaninginto the next chapter and what
do you want it to look like, etcetera.
So I've helped people throughdivorce.
I've helped people through jobredundancies, empty nesting.
(47:27):
I haven't helped anybodythrough empty nesting yet, but
I'm sure my sister is about togo through it, so her son goes
to Uni and it's the last one, soshe's sort of I could see her
kind of going I don't know whatI'm going to do.
(47:49):
I don't know what I'm going todo.
You know, like I like my lifethe way it is, but you know,
should I, should I hate thatword Should I be doing something
different, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Rose (47:56):
Yeah, empty nesting.
You know, people, women, women,I'm going to say women we pour
our heart and soul into raisingour children and then you know
they're not around.
So we need to find a newpurpose, a new hobby, something,
yeah, where we're feelinguseful, yet also enjoy the life
(48:20):
that you know.
We did what we needed to do andnow we have this time.
Yeah, we can do anything wewant.
Rachel (48:28):
You can do anything we want.
Yeah, I think you're right,though I think like, when I
think about, philosophicallyright, what the meaning of life
is Big, big, big, esotericquestion.
I think it's purpose, yeah, youknow, and it's purpose and
relationships, and those are thethings that make us happy or
(48:51):
unhappy.
Money's a necessity justbecause of the structure that we
live in.
But I know people who have anexorbitant amount of money, who
are some of the loneliest peopleyou will ever meet and they're
deeply unhappy and the moneydoesn't change that.
You know.
If anything, it makes themsuspicious of other people.
(49:13):
Why are you around me?
What do you want?
Right, you know, but I lovethat you said purpose, like,
what's your purpose?
Yeah, that's where we findmeaning and that's where we find
healing, solace, connection.
Rose (49:31):
Yeah, and some of us are here to help others like
yourself.
Rachel (49:35):
Like you're here to help others through grief and change
transformation on differentlevels, and you know that is
your purpose yeah I, I actuallyit's interesting because I've
started doing some energy workwith a wonderful woman named deb
driscoll big life, magic, umand in our first conversation,
(50:02):
when we were sort of talkingabout trying to synergize energy
, she's like you know, we've gotour physical energy, our
spiritual energy, our mentalenergy and our hearts energy and
we want to make them sort oflike sing in harmony, sing and
(50:28):
in harmony.
Um, and one of the words that Ihave been avoiding, that I'm
really trying to embrace now, isthat I'm a healer.
Why are you?
Rose (50:37):
trying to.
Why are you trying to avoid?
Rachel (50:39):
I don't know, I don't, I honestly don't know.
It's making me a littleemotional, is it?
Rose (50:45):
because is it?
Do you feel it's a bigresponsibility to be labeled as
a healer, because you know?
Rachel (50:51):
I mean, maybe, maybe it's um, yeah, I honestly, I
mean it's interesting becauseI've been journaling about it.
I'm like what?
I'm not sure why I've beenreluctant to own that word.
You know, part of it, I think,is responsibility, but yeah, I
(51:16):
don't know, it feels like a bigword.
Rose (51:19):
Well, because I've had, I've had, I've also struggled
with that Because heal it.
You know, I practice Reiki, I'ma yoga teacher, I'm a Qigong
teacher and then I realized likemaybe I'm not really the healer
.
I'm not really a healer BecauseI also study shamanism and the
perspective of shamanism is thatwe can heal ourselves.
(51:43):
We are the healers of ourselves.
Okay, so you're guiding otherpeople to help heal themselves?
Yeah, so if healing the wordhealer is not a word that
resonates with you and thatyou're uncomfortable with that,
find another word that thatyou're more comfortable with,
and maybe healing is justsomething like a tool that you
(52:04):
can help other people with, ifthat's yeah, it's just.
Rachel (52:11):
Yeah, I don't know.
I like the word healer, I do, Ido, I do like the word healer.
It is just so interesting, likeI I mean, years of therapy
helped me with this, but Istruggled with the word pride.
Being proud, you know, and Iuse that word a lot.
(52:33):
Now I tell people how proud Iam of them, cause I think it's
really important.
Yes, I think that that is aword that is just that a is
super healing, yes, superhealing.
To know, to be proud ofyourself, um, and to tell other
people that you're proud of them.
Rose (52:54):
Yeah, I think, I think I think one of the things I I
never got from my mom is thosewords, and I know it's because
she never got it from herparents she came from.
You know, she's immigrated herefrom Italy and her parents, you
know.
It was just.
It wasn't that way back thenand I never heard that, although
that's what has made me becomean overachiever and wanting some
(53:17):
validation from other peoplesometimes.
But now I'm like no, no, I knowI don't need that, I know I'm.
I'm like no, no, I know I don'tneed that.
I know I'm, I'm okay, I'm proudof myself, so but yes, yes,
very easy for you to pass alongthat same to my kids cycle of
you know through your mothering.
Yes, right.
(53:37):
Well, that's one thing I haveto say that.
Well, that's one thing I haveto say.
(54:00):
That's that that takesawareness and that takes wanting
to open up those wounds and puta little salt on them and see
what kind of burns the most, andand work from there.
You know, that's where likebeing your own guide, but I've
done a lot of the work, so youknow, I know a lot of the.
But, yes, I love that you're ahealer and you're helping other
(54:23):
people heal and that's soimportant because life is too
short.
We we want to move out of thegrief.
We want to be able to embracetransitions and changes.
Divorce or Empty Nesting or ,or anything, yeah, midlife
crisis yeah, whatever, whateverit is, change is great.
Crisis, yeah, whatever,whatever it is, change is great.
(54:47):
But, yeah, we need to know howto how to embrace that change
and feel good and comfortablewith that.
Yeah, yeah, um, I I want to goback to your movie, your new
movie, somewhere very near, andI know that you're also working
with someone in in um in england, john adams, who is trying to
make.
Yeah, can you talk about that?
I'd rather you say it.
Rachel (55:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So John Adams is I mean, heshies away from the word
activist, but he is an activist.
He has a podcast called AChanging Industry, he's a
funeral director and he recentlypetitioned parliament to
(55:28):
include bereavement in thenational curriculum.
And I partnered with him,because what I want to do with
Somewhere Very Near is to takeit into schools and then lead a
workshop with young people ageappropriate, depending on the
grade, et cetera to have themwatch the movie, and then we'll
(55:49):
do a creative exerciseintroducing these ideas of death
, of bereavement, of grief, etcetera, because I feel like
that's part of it.
Right Is, like you were saying,how is it different with
children?
They're open, they're curious,they don't know.
But if we model to them thatdeath is something to be avoided
(56:11):
, that death is something to befeared, that you don't want to
talk about it, et cetera, that'swhat they will take into
adulthood and that's the copingstrategy that they will then
have to unlearn the first timethey experience an ending of
some sort.
So if we can make it less scary, I guess it's that Buddhist
(56:33):
thing too of like turn towardssuffering, turn towards it, make
it your friend, you know,because it's inevitable, like
your friend, you know, becauseit's inevitable.
It's inevitable and, like yourfriend who now is supporting
other people who have lostchildren through her mediumship,
there are gifts for us.
(56:54):
If we will turn towards otherpeople's suffering right,
they're not going to infect uswith their suffering I mean,
suffering is part of the humancondition but if we can hold
space for them, then we can havepride in ourselves, we can have
compassion for ourselves, likeit just, it just blossoms into
(57:15):
all of these beautiful things,huge ripple effects that it can
have not just on you but on yourcommunity.
And yeah, so, yeah, yeah.
So I'm very excited about thatpartnership with john and um.
I've already got one schoollined up, uh, who are basically
(57:36):
I was like, well, I'll do, I'llcome in and do it for free.
If I could be your, you'll bemy beta and I'm excited.
Rose (57:44):
Yeah, I love that.
It's brilliant and I hope youcan bring it here to the States
because you know, I know my kidshave been.
You know my kids going throughhere and my cousins lost her
husband or daughter, youngteenager.
You know the schools aren'treally doing, they're not doing
anything.
You know they're saying, okay,take a day off and come back to
(58:06):
school, and there's no nothingin place to help support these
kids and it's really sad.
And even the kids, like kidsthat have lost friends in school
, that have died for whateverreason, you know there needs to
be support because it's like youknow, somebody is there one day
and they're not there anymore,you know.
So it needs to happen here inthe schools.
Rachel (58:28):
I always say things need to start young, yeah, yeah,
because then you're giving them,you're giving them resources
that they can lean on.
So it doesn't feel like a shock, right, it's not like oh my God
, like I had no idea this couldhappen and you know.
Instead it's like, oh yeah, ok,so at some point I'm going to
(58:51):
deal with this and maybe itdoesn't feel so scary.
Rose (58:56):
It feel really scary help you with trying to bring it here
, at least in my little smalltown.
Yeah, I will definitelydefinitely help you with that,
because we need to get this outto help the kids to help anyone
yeah, that would be amazing.
Rachel (59:13):
I would love that.
Rose (59:13):
I would love, love, love, love that maybe that's our
connection, because I was, Ifelt this the moment I met you
and there was like these weirdsynchro, not weird, I don'tities
, yes, serendipities, and youknow and I was like, okay, just
thought about we can worktogether.
I was like, love collaboratingwith people.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share or add or talk
about before we wrap this up?
Rachel (59:36):
no, just thank you so much for sharing as much of your
story in this as well, and yeah, yeah, I'm so glad we're
connected and I really enjoyedthis chat, me too.
Rose (59:53):
I wish you success with your new film and your journey
as a healer.
Thank you, and this is only thebeginning, because you are just
a beautiful shining light withbeautiful energy and you're
doing amazing things.
So thank you for being here.
Rachel (01:00:09):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for giving me theopportunity.
Rose (01:00:19):
Thank you for joining me here on Chat Off The Mat.
I hope these stories haveinspired you.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please share it with those who
might benefit.
Your support helps me spreadawareness about the power of
transformative healing.
Stay connected with me onsocial media.
Reach out with your own healingstories or topics you'd like me
(01:00:40):
to explore in future episodes.
Your voice is an essential partof this community.
I hope that your healingjourney is filled with
self-discovery, curiosity,resilience and the unwavering
belief in the power that resideswithin you.
Until next time, I'm RoseWippich, wishing you a journey
(01:01:02):
filled with love, laughter andendless possibilities.
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