October 28, 2025 • 61 mins
Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Trapper Schoepp and expert Bill Taylor of The Phoenix.
Today's featured musical guest, Trapper Schoepp, boosted his career after discovering old lyrics of an unfinished song written by Bob Dylan about his home state of Wisconsin. Trapper took those lyrics and decided to finish the song he called “On Wisconsin.” So when Bob Dylan heard about this, Trapper officially became a co-writer with Bob Dylan for this song, news that spread quickly by Rolling Stone and newspapers across the country. When Trapper finally got to meet his boyhood hero, Bob Dylan, this happy moment happened during the most miserable time in his life. Trapper was battling a serious opioid addiction. In our interview, Trapper shares how he fought a 10 year addiction to opioids, his recent stay at the Hazelden Betty Ford clinic and while there, wrote all the songs on his new album “Osborne,” and how music was a big part of his healing. We’ll also play a clip of his song, “Satan Is Real (Satan is a Sackler)” at the end of our episode.
Next, we spotlight an organization that has made sobriety cool and fun, growing a community that’s close to a million strong. Today I talk with Bill Taylor, Director of Music Programs for The Phoenix, a sober community that’s focused on activities along with ongoing support and healing. Bill shares how the upcoming events by The Phoenix not only supports music fans, but also the artists who perform onstage.Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Welcome to the Check In Podcast, the podcast where
notable musicians and expertsshare their stories and
solutions for mental health andaddiction recovery.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, andtoday our musical guest, Trapper
Shepp, boosted his career afterdiscovering old lyrics of an
unfinished song written by BobDylan about his home state of
(00:27):
Wisconsin.
Trapper took those lyrics anddecided to finish the song he
called On Wisconsin.
So when Bob Dylan heard aboutthis, Trapper officially became
a co-writer with Bob Dylan forthe song On Wisconsin.
News that quickly spread toRolling Stone and newspapers
across the country.
(00:49):
When Trapper finally got to meethis boyhood hero, Bob Dylan,
this happy moment actuallyhappened during the most
miserable time in his life.
Trapper was battling a seriousopioid addiction.
And in our interview, Trappershares how he fought a 10-year
addiction to opioids, his recentstay at the Hazleton Betty Ford
(01:10):
Clinic, and while there, wroteall the songs on his new album,
Osborne, and also how musicplayed a big part in his
healing.
We'll also play a clip of hissong, Satan is Real, Satan is a
Sackler, at the end of ourepisode.
Next, we spotlight anorganization that has made
(01:30):
sobriety cool and fun, growing acommunity that's close to a
million strong.
Today I talk with Bill Taylor,director of music programs for
the Phoenix, a sober communitythat's focused on activities
along with ongoing support andhealing.
Bill shares how the upcomingevents by the Phoenix not only
(01:52):
supports music fans, but alsothe artists who perform on
stage.
But first, let's hear ourfeatured musician, Trapper Shep,
share his story.
You did that song on Wisconsin,lyrics with Bob Dylan, and you
finished part of it, and then hecontacted you, and you guys
(02:14):
ended up finishing that songtogether.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
So in 1960, on the day he went into the recording
studio to begin work on hisfirst album, he wrote a song
about my home state ofWisconsin.
And uh he did not finish thesong, and the producer didn't
choose it for the album.
And 57 years later, I wasscrolling through Facebook and I
(02:44):
saw this article that said longlost lyrics by Bob Dylan about
Wisconsin up for auction$30,000.
And I thought, well, damn, Ican't afford that.
But what about if I finish thesong for Bob instead?
So I just took that upon myself.
I finished the song, I put itout there, and uh eventually,
(03:08):
yeah, Rolling Stone took notice,Billboard took notice, then Bob
Dylan's lawyers took notice.
And uh we ended up reaching anagreement to where I was the
official co-writer of OnWisconsin, as we called it.
But yeah, it it kind of tiesinto my recovery journey as
(03:29):
well, because I think in 2019was the year when I realized
that I really had an issue withall these different prescription
painkillers that were prescribedto me.
And uh it it all startedphysical with spinal
decompression surgery, and thenthese things turn out
(03:52):
psychological.
So it was that year which was ayear of many congratulations in
order for that momentouschildhood dream coming to
fruition.
But really behind the scenes, Iwas struggling pretty bad.
I got to the end of a tour anduh called my mom and I said,
(04:13):
Mom, you know, I'm reallystruggling with this, this, and
I also need a haircut.
She was like, go get a haircutto start and then we'll work on
the rest.
But I ended up just whiteknuckling it, and I kind of got
through that period on my own.
And later is uh when I realizedthat I needed more outside help.
(04:37):
Even though I had uh kind ofcleared the painkillers out of
my system years later, otheraddictions slipped through, and
I ended up getting some help atthe uh Hazelden Betty Ford
Center, the Osborne unit.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Let me stop you there, because I find it really
interesting.
I read you were into BMX biking,you got into an accident, you
had to do multiple spinalsurgeries, and you were
prescribed opioids forpainkillers.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
Yeah, and after I left the Mayo clinic after
having really just one intensivesurgery, they gave me two
different prescriptions, andthey almost kind of said, Hey,
you'll get a tolerance to onevery quickly, so then alternate
to the other, and then take themboth at the same time.
(05:31):
And I was like, whoa, okay.
And I was really naive, to behonest.
And I think a lot of people werenaive who were struggling with
chronic pain in that time periodof the opioid epidemic where
they were just kind of blindlyprescribing a lot of these
(05:53):
substances.
And while many of them do haveuse in a clinical setting,
they're very hard to manageoutside of that.
And that was that was myexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
Well, one thing that really s stuck out is you said
that the prescribing doctor saysthat he prescribes a lot of
these medications, but hedoesn't get people off of them.
And then he gave you kind of anopen prescription and refills
and just pretty much was reallykind of giving you free reign to
(06:29):
take this medication, which isreally sketchy.
I mean, at that time, what wereyou thinking when the doctor
said that to you?
And then looking back, what doyou think about it now?
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Well, I do think that just pointing fingers is
kind of the easy way out, right?
Because if you just say, well,it's it's this person's fault or
this doctor's fault, it's abigger societal issue and
problem.
And the doctor is just a productof that environment.
(07:08):
And if they see someone who'ssuffering, they are going to try
to treat that in a way that theyhave been taught to do.
But it did really stick with mewhen I brought up to one of the
doctors, hey, I think I'maddicted to these medications,
and I'll never forget himsaying, you know, well, I've
(07:31):
I've never had a patient becomeaddicted to these medications.
You're you're just dependent.
I'm like, well, the line betweendependency and addiction is is
blurry at best.
He also said to me, We we helppeople get on these medications.
We don't help people get off ofthem.
(07:53):
I was like, whoa, that that'skind of evil.
Because these prescriptionsreally alter the way your brain
interprets pain.
It makes you so much moresensitive to pain.
That's the irony of painkillersand long-term use, is that your
(08:13):
body becomes so much moresensitive to pain, and you have
to take more and more of theseto treat the pain.
And then you find yourself inthis vicious cycle.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Let me ask you something, because you know,
fortunately, I've I've neverreally tried any kind of opioid.
I fortunately haven't had anysituation where I've had a lot
of pain.
But I do remember when I was inpharmaceuticals, I was in
pharmaceuticals for 13 years.
And I remember, thankfully, Inever had to promote an
addictive drug, but I doremember there were certain
(08:47):
physicians that were alwaysprescribing the addictive drugs,
you know, and it was like thismill where people would go in
and get the prescription and,you know, pay the doctor for
that office visit.
And, you know, we always reallyjust looked down on those
doctors because we knew what wasgoing on.
(09:08):
I mean, that is a realinteresting description that a
painkiller is actually causingyou more sensitivity to pain.
Do you feel like maybe thismedication was set up to get
people addicted?
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
I cannot answer that.
You know, I'm a work in progressstill in my recovery, and I
don't have all the answers, butI do think that, say, the Sagler
family, you know, they createddrugs knowing that they were
highly addictive, and theyhelped implement the pain scale
(09:50):
one to ten and promoted the ideaof chronic incurable pain.
So I think that too kind ofkeeps someone feeling like
they're in this victim loop oflike, well, it's it's chronic
incurable pain.
But I think that it's reallyeasy to villainize big pharma,
(10:14):
it's easy to villainize doctors,it's easy to villainize the
drugs themselves, but they'reall a product of a much bigger
environment and a societalissue.
And I'm just a work in progress.
I don't have all the answers,but as someone who has gotten
(10:35):
through that part of myaddiction, the opioid part, I
can say that they are hard ashell to come off.
And I don't wish that uponanyone.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Well, that's why I gave you a big congratulations,
because I just heard it was justone of the most difficult drugs
to get off of.
SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
And other substances crept in.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Like what?
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
Well, I can say this.
I had fully gotten through allof the opioids, and I felt that
I was in a good place to treatmy chronic pain and try to work
on some of my anxiety withcannabis.
(11:37):
And I think that the cannabis ofBob Marley's years is much
different than the cannabis,like the high octane stuff.
And uh, I got really lost inthat.
And what had happened was I wason a tour and using using that a
(12:01):
lot.
And what happened was I ended upmixing that with steroids that I
was legally prescribed and goinginto just going mad, like
completely going into mania,going into a state of psychosis
(12:21):
and mania.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
Did you have hallucinations or no?
I mean, what were some of thethings that happened to you that
you know, some people even blackout, they don't even remember.
What was maybe a couple thingsthat you did that you even look
back and were really shocked ormaybe even embarrassed?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Oh, I mean, a lot.
But it presented itself in thelack of situational awareness to
speak, generally, a lack of needof sleep at all, you know,
basically delusions of grandeur,putting myself in dangerous
(13:05):
situations.
You know, if there was a cop whowas wearing a flag on his vest,
I would speak very candidly tothat uh policeman.
I just found myself getting intosituations where in this manic
state, my body could not keep upwith my brain, and I would act
(13:29):
on impulses.
Basically, though, you speak topeople with addiction, and the
common denominator is thembecause we talk about opioids,
we talk about alcohol, talkabout cannabis, amphetamines,
whatever you want to talk about,the common denominator is the
(13:53):
person using part of recovery isworking through your resentments
and trying to get down to theroot of what made you want to
use to begin with.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
And what was that for you?
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Well, it did start with chronic pain, and
oftentimes throughout my life,it has been treating a physical
ailment, and then it becomespsychological, and the wheels
are in motion, and the viciouscycle starts, and you get on
that wheel, and it's hard to getoff it, you know.
(14:35):
I do think that oftentimes drugsare a symptom of something else,
and that it's not a moralfailure upon the person who uses
the substance.
And I just think talking aboutit like me and you are right now
is important because itdestigmatizes the issues
(14:59):
surrounding addiction anddestigmatizes the shame, the
isolation, and uh those are twothings that really keep people
from asking for help, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Right.
It's true.
And that was the other thing youhad mentioned about being
psychological.
I hear so many stories, and thehard part also about addiction
is going through the therapy tokind of find out what the wounds
you might have or what it wasthat your addiction was covering
(15:34):
up or soothing you.
So I was gonna ask you, werethere any mental health
challenges that you had beforeor even after your treatment,
your addiction?
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
And continue to have.
I'm a work in progress.
And I think you know, it's okayto be a work in progress.
It's okay to feel like adumpster fire sometimes.
It's okay to be a hot mess.
I think we're all working onourselves.
And and as long as you canextend some grace and compassion
(16:08):
towards yourself, it's mucheasier along that path.
And I think early on in myrecovery, I felt like it was
this race that I had to sort ofcheck all these boxes and then
enlightenment, or I would becured, or I wouldn't have
(16:30):
cravings.
But that's typically not thereality.
That happens with time.
The three Ts, things take time.
I just don't think it's blackand white, these issues
surrounding addiction.
It's very complicated and veryindividual.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
I mean, that's why, you know, they call it a journey
because you're alwaysdiscovering something new,
you're always managing and evenchanging different ways to
manage whatever it is that we'reall going through.
I know you mentioned a timewhere you had some mania, but
you know, there are things likedepression and anxiety and ADHD
(17:12):
or panic attacks.
Were any of those things part ofyour journey, you know, as you
were going through all of this?
SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
Yeah, I think coming off of substances definitely has
led to depression, and I thinkthat's okay.
And change is really hard.
It's not just change, it's beingopen to change.
And I heard once that a drunkenhorse thief who gets sober is
(17:45):
still a horse thief, and I lovedthat because it it uh you're
able to see your issues muchmore clearly when you peel the
substances away.
And there were a lot of thingsgoing on in my life leading up
to going to Hazleton thatcontributed toward some of that
(18:09):
mania.
It's not always as easy assaying, well, this is the drugs,
or it's because of this, it'sbecause of this.
I learned in early recovery thatthings aren't black and white,
they're gray.
You know, is this a test?
Is this torture like going torehab or early recovery?
(18:32):
It's a little bit of both.
And if this wasn't hard, thenyou probably wouldn't have
needed it to begin with, right?
Because if it was easy, thenlight bulb, then you're fine.
But in a sense, it seems hard,it's a sign that you need to
(18:53):
keep going and find an alignmentin your life that's clear
without substances, but it'shard.
It's just hard.
SPEAKER_00 (19:03):
Well, you know, one thing that stuck out to me is
you said before you went toHazleton, you Googled a quote
and you found that OzzieOsbourne said about Hazleton,
you said that was a tough one.
They don't fuck around.
In your experience, he was verysuccinct about it.
(19:24):
In your experience, would youagree or disagree with that?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Hazleton does not fuck around.
And I learned there very earlyon that it is not a place that
caters to uh people wanting tofeel comfortable.
That's not what it's about.
Getting clean and sober is notabout personal comfort.
(19:54):
If you want comfort, you can goto Malibu and sit on a beach and
get clean.
And there's tons of rehabcenters where you can do that.
And I don't think one person'spath needs to be like the other
person's path.
But Hazleton, Minnesota, is nota hold your hand, everything's
(20:17):
gonna be okay.
It's a little bit more toughlove.
Yeah, I think Ozzie, when heshowed up to Hazleton, he was
like, Where's the cocktail?
You know, he thought that theywere gonna help him drink like a
gentleman, you know.
I think that was his quote.
I went to Hazleton because I wasborn in Minnesota, and my old
(20:41):
drummer had gone to Hazleton,and I had actually performed at
Hazleton once for an alumnievent that they had.
So I felt some sort of bond.
I'd known that there were someum musicians who had gone there,
and that was definitely not thereason I went there, but on the
(21:02):
train ride there, yeah, IGoogled Ozzie Hazelden because I
had heard he had gone there andI stumbled upon that quote.
And then lo and behold, I wasplaced in the Osborne unit.
There were like heavy metalartwork and copies of the
Osborns on DVD.
(21:23):
So Ozzie became sort of thisspiritual guide for the album.
Pretty funny for a folk rockerfrom Wisconsin.
Yeah, I kind of thought, well,if Ozzie can do it, I can do it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
There you go.
That's all we're trying to dohere.
Nice.
Yeah, Ozzy was on so many drugs.
I think they had a scientificstudy to see how he actually was
able to live, you know, as longas he did.
But here's the thing aboutHazleton, it's well known, but
if it's tough love, I mean,what's the experience when you
(21:58):
first get in?
You know, like the first couplethings that they do as far as
tough love.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Well, I don't necessarily think tough love is
always bad love.
I just mean that they're prettyold school, they're no bullshit.
They don't put up with peoplebending their rules, you know.
Like for many years, people weredoor-dashing in meals, and then
(22:25):
they realized that was a waythat people were sneaking in
substances, and there are thewoods there at Hazleton, and
people were meeting at the edgeof the woods, and there's a
famous story about Eric Claptonwho swam across the lake at
Hazleton to go to a bar, youknow.
(22:48):
But as far as the treatment andcare there, I think it is really
good.
You know, staying in a room withother patients for
accountability, I think thingslike that are good.
And sticking to their meals andtheir programming, and there is
an element to recovery whichdemands a bit of rigorous
(23:11):
honesty with yourself and beinga bit uncomfortable, but I think
their level of care is ispretty, pretty remarkable in
that the people there are lovingand very educated and at the top
of their field.
Just the speakers that theywould bring in every day was
(23:34):
just remarkable.
Everybody wants to get clean andsober, but nobody wants to do
the dishes.
And the dishes are the everydaymaintenance work.
You know, that's the hard,mundane work that comes after
your recovery.
But post-acute withdrawalsyndrome, which can last years,
(23:55):
which is the physical andpsychological withdrawals that
you have from medications.
So oftentimes people think thatyou just sort of get sober and
then it's you're good, right?
So for me, I've been trying tomeditate more.
(24:17):
I've been trying to swim in LakeMichigan, take cold showers, the
cold exposure therapy in the WimHof has been powerful for me.
That's a nice way to kind ofshock your system.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
And yeah, we had an expert actually talk about the
Wim Hof method.
He was he was a trainer thatactually trained with Wim Hof.
So we had him on the podcast.
So yeah, it's uh it's somethinga lot a lot of people do, and I
think it's gotten more popular.
So, how does that help you?
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
It's just a reset.
You know, it's like this quickphysical reset where you take 30
fast inhalations, exhalations,and you breathe out and you hold
for up to two minutes.
That's kind of the the longesttime I've been able to do it.
And then you breathe out, andthen you kind of restart the
(25:13):
process over and over and do itas many times as you want.
But then in cold exposuretherapy, whether that's just
cold showers or cold plunges, orfor me, I try to go in like
Michigan as long as I cantolerate it.
And it's just about slowing downyour breathing, because I think
(25:37):
a lot of people, when you getinto cold water, you
hyperventilate or your breathingstarts to get really fast.
And when you're able to slowdown your breathing, you're
training your mind to it'sbasically a stress response form
of therapy.
(25:57):
That physical work that you doin your recovery.
I mean, that that's huge becauseit is such a physical game.
There's a lot of things that youcan do in in recovery, I think,
to soften the blow and make it alittle bit easier for yourself.
But yeah, those are a few thingsfor me: the cold exposure,
(26:23):
breath work, meditation, tryingto eat right, trying to sleep
right, working out.
Yeah.
Those have been important forme.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
Yeah, those are really great things to reset,
you know, anxiety reduction,kind of calming your body down,
and long-term benefits too,especially with meditation.
Sleep is super important becauseyou're healing, you know, during
that time.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Remember, I wasn't withdrawing from opioids when I
was at Hazleton.
It was in 2019.
That was when I was whiteknuckling and trying to get off
of those, right?
That was at home.
But I don't know, it's kind ofhell.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Wait, wait, so what were you being treated for at
Hazleton while you were there?
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
The mania, the sort of psychosis I was in, and it
was from there were multiplethings, but it was mostly
because I had been overdoing thecannabis big time and mixing it
with steroids, and I was sick.
(27:36):
There were other medications Iwas prescribed at that time.
But here's the thing (27:40):
when you go to a rehab facility, you're
not just treating what you have,what you're coming off at that
moment.
You're treating the person as awhole, right?
They take into account all ofyour past substance use, it's
not just one thing.
(28:02):
With addiction, we oftenoversimplify and we say, oh,
well, he's an alcoholic, orhe's, you know, a junkie or
whatever it is.
And it's it's always morecomplicated than that.
You know, there's always more atplay.
But when I first was coming offof painkillers, it was very,
(28:25):
very difficult to, you know, thebasic things, eat, sleep, you
know, move about.
It was very, very difficulthaving increased anxiety and
depression and all the thingsyou hear people talk about when
they come off of those meds,just feeling kind of shaky and
(28:48):
totally off-kilter and offbalance.
I want to be clear too, youknow, I was someone that was
taking these medicationstypically as prescribed.
I was taking them for a longperiod to try to treat a
physical ailment.
But it says on the bottle, takeone with breakfast, take one
(29:11):
with lunch, take one withdinner.
And usually I didn't even dothat, but it's the length that
you're taking these medications,and it's like you're just
putting these little band-aidsall over your your issues when
you're using.
And they can be useful forpeople, and there's a lot of
(29:32):
people suffering and struggling,and I don't want to negate that
either.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Right.
Sometimes the hardest part is,you know, going to therapy and,
you know, talking about thosethings that issues where you put
band-aids on them usingaddiction or other things, you
know, it could be shopping, itcould be sex.
And you had mentioned that therewere situations before you went
into Hazleton that really kindof encouraged you to to go in.
(30:00):
I mean, what were those issuesthat were you putting band-aids
on, like the big issues that youwere having to deal with at the
time?
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Oh man.
One, I had a stalker at thetime.
It was not fun.
And it definitely took its tollon me and was making me
extremely paranoid.
That was frightening.
That was a component where Ifelt very uncomfortable.
(30:30):
And I felt like I was in thisfight or flight mode.
And yeah, I'm kind of going backto that moment now.
And I feel like I would wake upreally early in the morning and
just like my body would awakento try to protect myself.
And then when you're usingsubstances that increase
paranoia, you're you're gettingextremely paranoid.
(30:53):
And I think there are unresolvedbits of PTSD from BMX bicycle
accidents of my youth.
One that I had spinaldecompression surgery on, one of
which I will not disclose due toits graphic content.
(31:14):
Another really bad BMX bikeaccident.
A lot of people want to suppressnegative things.
And, you know, there's thatbook, The Body Keeps a Score.
It definitely kept the score forme.
And that's that's why I say thatwhen you go to treatment, when
(31:35):
you go to rehab, they tend totreat the whole person, not just
the addiction that is, you know,at the surface, because that
addiction is typically asymptom.
And I think that's reallyimportant to recognize that
addiction and dependence is nota moral failure.
(31:58):
It's oftentimes a way thatsomeone is trying to solve a
problem.
And like I said, it startedphysical with me and it turned
psychological.
That's a tough spot to be in,but I think that's very, very
common.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
You know, I was talking about therapy, and you
were talking about how it becamepsychological.
I mean, what were thediscoveries that you found in
therapy for yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (32:27):
There is unresolved trauma from bicycle accidents of
my youth, and I never reallywanted to sit with the
uncomfortable feelings there.
It sort of laid the groundworkfor some of my abuse that I
wanted to just push away thosenegative emotions.
(32:49):
And then also just that quickfix, you know, that happens with
these opioid medications.
It's such a band-aid.
And there have just been far toomany moments in my 20s where,
yes, I had back pain, but youknow, if there was something
(33:10):
going on, you put a band-aidover that.
And you put a band-aid overthat, and then you become a
human band-aid.
You become a band-aid mummy.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsI've uncovered, and and it's
like you peel back all thelayers of the onion, and onions
can kind of make you cry.
And yeah, sometimes when youkeep digging and you keep
(33:32):
digging into your yourself, thatisn't always helpful either.
So in addiction recovery,there's a big emphasis on our
moral defects.
And I try not to focus entirelyon that because I think you need
a level of compassion and graceand humility and kindness with
(33:56):
yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
Right.
Well, thank you for letting meknow about that.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
I think too that oftentimes we look at people who
have addiction issues, and wethink, oh, well, they all had a
bad childhood, or it's becauseof the way they were raised.
And for me, it never was that.
I I did have a good, a goodchildhood and good parents and a
(34:25):
good family.
But I have endured quite a bitof physical pain in my life.
And the body keeps the score.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
What does that mean though?
The body keeps the score.
SPEAKER_02 (34:38):
The body keeps the score.
It means that you have traumaand pain that's stored up in
your body unconsciously, andthat it's there.
It's there in you, whether youlike it or not.
So the BMX bicycle accidents Imentioned in my youth, you know,
(35:01):
all that pain, the trauma of notjust the events, but the pain
afterwards and all themedications and going on and off
them, it's a lot of pain thatyou're carrying around.
I mean, you hear a lot aboutgenerational trauma, of passing
(35:23):
down that trauma unconsciously.
That's what I'm speaking of toois your body holds what it
cannot handle.
What you don't want toemotionally deal with, your body
will physically hold on to that.
And it will find ways to ariseat a later date.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Right.
You know, everybody that ends upgoing to to treatment and going
through this psychological part,yeah, it is difficult.
It's difficult and it's scarybecause, you know, sometimes we
don't even know what's going on,and it's confusing for other
people too, because we might notbe acting the way that we
normally act.
I mean, because I've gonethrough depression, I've gone
(36:06):
through anxiety, I'm doingreally good now, you know.
But the thing is you never know,you know, when something else is
gonna crop up.
And then again, time to thinkabout managing and all that.
So now that, yay, you're out ofrehab, you mentioned something
about cannabis, which I think isreally important because I think
(36:28):
sometimes when people talk aboutcannabis, especially now that
it's legal in a lot of states,that it's much safer than some
of the other drugs.
And it can be, you know, in somecircumstances, but but I've
heard of other people that haveactually come on the podcast
that say if you take cannabis ona regular basis or too much,
(36:49):
that you can like flip intopsychosis.
And, you know, you had thatexperience.
So it's I'm just remindingpeople that, you know, it's not
as innocent as it looks, youknow, sometimes that it can
really have some bad effects.
So now you just got out ofHazleton not that long ago.
SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
April or May of last year.
So about a year and a half.
I went straight from Hazleton,went on tour not long after
that, and it was actually prettygreat.
The tour was fine, and uh I havereally good support.
I have a great fiance, mybandmates are all really solid,
(37:32):
and I think that's importanttoo.
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, you've gotten to a pointwhere you you have a taste of
this new life for yourself.
You know, what are some of thethings that you find that are
really different?
Maybe good or bad.
Things that are joyous or thingsthat are like, oh wow, I didn't
expect that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Yeah, I think I've just learned that you have to
work harder to feel good, youknow, especially after you've
kind of put your brain throughthis this rigmarole for a while
where you're used to kind of thequick fixes.
You have to work harder to feelbetter.
And it's not all thatchallenging for many people to
(38:15):
get sober, it's kind ofregaining your equilibrium and
sense of stability and joyoutside of that.
That takes work, and I am a workin progress.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
So, last question I'm gonna ask about treatment,
because I again I'm reallycurious about this.
What are some methods thatyou've tried that have worked to
release all that subconsciousbody counting?
How do you do that?
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
Well, I think like my album, right?
Like why we're here, you know,the album called Osborne,
written in early recovery, itwas extremely raw, you know,
very vulnerable and very honest.
That kind of felt like anatonement in a way.
(39:06):
It's like you're paying a tollto yourself and maybe to the
greater universe when you kindof create that artwork that
reflects on what's been storedup inside you.
And I think making art is areally powerful way to express
(39:28):
what you've been through.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Do you have a final message you would give your fans
or other people that arestruggling with addictions, you
know, as far as regaining theirlife again?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Don't waste your suffering.
Just because you're goingthrough the darkness doesn't
mean that there won't be light.
You can be of use to otherpeople.
You can be there for people whoare going through what you're
going through, and that that'sof great value, you know.
There's good in that.
(40:01):
You know, I don't have all theanswers, but I think that's okay
too.
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
Next up, we'll talk about the Phoenix with Bill
Taylor, the man in charge of theorganization's sober music
events.
Their first event started in alittle town in Vermont, and now
these events are spreadingacross the country.
Bill is also in recovery, andwe'll talk about how the Phoenix
is building an active sobercommunity that thrives on
(40:30):
connection, support, and healingwhile also having a ton of fun.
Now let's hear Bill Taylor talkabout this new sobriety shift,
and while you don't need drugsor alcohol, to party hard.
Can you give me a brief story onyour story with addiction and
recovery?
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, real briefly, I moved to NewOrleans right after college.
I was drawn there.
I went to my first jazz fest andwas just blown away by the city,
by the culture, by the people.
So I would say a struggle I washaving, you know, with alcohol
became more than that.
(41:12):
And that went on for a number ofyears after Katrina.
And finally in 2011, I asked forhelp from a musician who's a
very well-known New Orleansmusician, Anders Osborne, who
had been sober for a couple ofyears.
And he started me on the path tosobriety.
And that relationship, thatpartnership with Anders has been
(41:33):
a very significant one, both forme professionally as well as in
my recovery.
So once I hit that moment whereI knew I needed help, it opened
up a door to a whole new worldthat I could never have imagined
because things were pretty,pretty desperate at that time.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
You know, I hear a lot about the sober community
and how it's so important to beconnected to that community
while you're maintaining yoursobriety.
And I want to get into that, butI do want everyone to know up
front what the Phoenix is about.
SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
Yeah, the Phoenix is a national organization.
So we have a footprint all overthe country.
It's a sober community thatfocuses on activities, whether
it's rock climbing or going toconcerts.
Now we're coming very close toreaching a million members of
the Phoenix, which that's areally powerful community of
(42:29):
people that are sober who arewilling to not just support each
other, but actually go out anddo things together.
So it ranges on activities,oftentimes depending on the
area.
You know, in Colorado, there'srock climbing, and it's really
just about people comingtogether through activities
they're passionate about andlifting each other up.
(42:50):
And I think it's resonated.
Like for me, when I got sober, Ihad no idea that there were
communities out there that couldlift me up and support me
through that journey.
I just, I knew I had an issue.
I made a phone call to somebodyI knew who had made some changes
in his life.
And then all of a sudden, thesenew worlds opened up to me.
(43:12):
In my experience, it's very hardto navigate that on your own.
It's finding communities ofpeople that you can share the
journey with that really allowedme to start to flourish in my
sobriety.
So Phoenix has been buildingthat community over many years.
And with a focus on music,relatively recently, so I've
been with the organization forfour years.
(43:34):
I was really the first person todig into the music side of it.
I think music is one of theareas that we can all agree, we
all share that passion on somelevel.
It brings people together in away that is pretty special.
So being able to bring musicinto the community of Phoenix
members has been awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Well, thank you for doing that because any music
lover can tell you that when youare at a show or a festival with
a bunch of like-minded musiclovers, there is something
special.
There's a feeling, there's anexcitement, there's an
understanding that doesn't evenhave to be talked about.
And the energy that you get fromthe music, you know, the
(44:16):
musicians, the artists, and whatthose artists also receive from
the audience is really it's kindof magical, the healing that
takes place.
So I'm excited to hear aboutsome of the music events on your
website.
SPEAKER_01 (44:32):
Just to piggyback on what you were saying as we segue
into the events, I do thinkmusic is everything you just
said.
And I think when you really boilit down, that's what music does.
But it's also can be a very hardindustry to navigate.
If you're a musician, you haveto live a pretty grueling
lifestyle, being on tour all thetime, going from city to city to
(44:55):
city.
It can be a really difficultlifestyle.
And there's obviously drugs andalcohol everywhere.
Same thing if you're going tosee music.
I remember when I initiallystarted to go see concerts
again, I was scared, you know,because I would go into venues
where there was alcoholeverywhere and it was daunting.
(45:15):
So I think it's really importantas there becomes more of a focus
on mental health, overallwellness, supporting those in
recovery in this industry,making space for that is really
important because it can, it canfeel isolating, whether you work
in the industry or you justreally love going to see
(45:36):
concerts to enter that world,especially if you're newly
sober.
So that's important to note.
And a lot of the work we do isaimed at making sure there are
safe spaces at events thatpeople can be connected with
others in sobriety when they goout and see music.
Or the musicians who are outthere filling our cup every
(45:58):
night, they have the necessarysupport that they need while
they're out on the road.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
Right.
I'm glad you brought that up.
It was a lot of things that cametogether that really made me
want to focus on the Phoenix.
You know, as part of thepodcast, I have a friend who is
sober from an alcohol addiction,and he invited me to it was a
music retreat, sort of like yogameditation.
(46:25):
And he told me that he only goesto sober events.
And I'm like, oh wow, that'scool.
You know, I would think that thejoy of being at a music event
and then putting on top of thatthe support and the atmosphere
of having uh sober people aroundyou while you're, you know,
(46:46):
managing your sobriety wouldeven take it to a higher level,
even feeling more safe,supported, secure, and you know,
all those good things.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
Yes, right.
But without the community ofpeople that you can surround
yourself with, that becomesreally hard.
One of the focuses we've had issaying, okay, where in the music
space can we add value and helpto nurture the community of
people who are seeking others,you know, who are walking the
same path of recovery, or eventhose that are, you know,
(47:19):
dealing with mental healthchallenges.
Where are my people out there sothat I can get back to doing the
things I love, whetherperforming music or going to see
music?
So we've done a lot of soberspaces at events, big events,
small events.
You know, we've been at the NewOrleans Jazz Fest, which is a
very large event.
We've been at Coachella andsmaller ones too.
(47:42):
Then two years ago, we startedour own substance-free festival.
And this is in partnership withan organization called the
Divided Sky Foundation, whichwas founded by Trey Anastasio
from the band Fish.
And we do this substance-freefestival.
It's called Music on theMountain, right there in Ludlow,
(48:03):
Vermont, right near where thetreatment center is located.
And it's a weekend's worth ofmusic, no alcohol,
substance-free.
And our idea behind this waswhat if we could start doing our
own events that showed how muchfun people could have if you
just eliminate, you know, thebooze, et cetera.
(48:25):
And it has taken off in a reallypowerful way.
We've had thousands of peopleevery year come to this.
So we do it at like a ski resortright at the base of the
mountain.
We do singer-songwriter, like anin the rounds on Friday night.
There's a run in the morning onSaturday, followed by a full-day
festival.
And then we do an acousticbrunch on Sunday morning.
(48:48):
So this has been a really coolundertaking because it's kind of
different.
There, there are not many ofthese.
Like finding music events thatdon't serve alcohol is not easy
to do.
So it was a bit of a leap offaith in year one, but we got
our concept after that firstyear.
Then this past spring, it wasjust, it was just beautiful.
(49:13):
So trying to show people, likecreate environments for people
where they feel safe.
It's almost like if you removethe alcohol, the goal is can we
still have the same experience,same fun, same vibe, the joy,
and all that?
And the answer to that questionis yes.
I think the biggest win aboutthis event is that you don't
(49:36):
even feel like you're missingit.
It's like a non-issue because itis such a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Well, the funny thing is, is you know, people
grow up with these ideas on whatit means to have fun.
And maybe their family historyor maybe, you know, just the
tagline sex, drugs, and rock androll, might equate to them, hey,
this is what I need to do inorder to have fun.
SPEAKER_01 (49:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:00):
But we don't even consciously think about it
sometimes, right?
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
I mean, no, we we we grow up with that sort of
ingrained in our thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
Right.
It's everywhere.
So the thing that I found with alot of people that I've asked
this is, you know, what is soberpartying like now?
And you know what?
All of them say it's so muchbetter because I'm clear, I can
express my emotions and be withmy friends and be present
(50:31):
instead of being clouded ormaybe distracted by you know,
drugs and alcohol or whatever itis.
So I could see where that's ashift in thinking.
But I think once you're on boardand you experience it, you
realize, hey, there's somethingto this.
SPEAKER_01 (50:50):
Yeah.
The shift is an important,that's an important word that
you use because we talk aboutmore broadly at the Phoenix
about creating a movement.
So it's not just for people whoare, you know, straight up
sober.
It's for anybody that is onboard with being supportive of
this experience.
(51:11):
Like everybody has a loved oneor a friend, or, you know,
they're in some way touched byalcoholism and addiction.
It's just everywhere in oursociety.
So by providing sort of anon-ramp for people to do
something about that, to supporttheir loved ones or seek the
help they need or find thecommunity they need, it's so
(51:31):
important.
It's so important.
And having these experienceswhere we bring people together,
we talk about in the musicindustry, like, what would a
paradigm shift look like?
What you said, sex, drugs, androck and roll.
Maybe there's another way tolook at this music world that
tilts a little more in thedirection of why don't we
(51:52):
support each other?
Why don't we focus on wellnessand healing?
That's what music does.
That's at the heart of it, Ithink, or that connects us so
deeply to music is that it givesmeaning to our lives.
So more and more we're lookingat our work as hopefully being a
part of a paradigm shift in theindustry and then more broadly
(52:13):
as well in society.
But I think music and musiciansand artists really help shape
our culture in the world we livein.
It's been that way for a verylong time, maybe forever.
They help shine a light on theissues we're dealing with.
They speak the truth, theyconnect us to our souls and to
one another.
And the idea that maybe thismusic world could shift a little
(52:38):
bit, you know, and the focus canbe really on the art and the
connection and the communityrather than I need to go out and
blow it out with drugs andalcohol.
SPEAKER_00 (52:48):
Well, you know, as you were talking, it made me
think that, you know, therereally should be a new tagline
instead of sex, drugs, and rockand roll.
SPEAKER_01 (52:56):
We need to come up with one.
SPEAKER_00 (52:57):
Yeah, and I'm not trying to damper anyone's party,
but you know, we want to keeppeople safe.
We want people to live longenough so that they can enjoy
all these moments, you know,being clear.
And one thing that you mentionedas you were talking about their
festival is predictions areoften a symptom of a deeper
problem, but it's somebody'schoice for a solution.
(53:20):
An unhealthy choice.
So talking about mental health,like how does that play a part
with the Phoenix?
SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Well, I mean, I think it's just deeply
connected.
What you just described, thatoftentimes drugs and alcohol are
somebody's solution to deeperproblems, you know?
Everybody's story is different.
I should start by saying that.
I know that was the case for me.
I can certainly speak for myselfthat that was a solution that I
(53:50):
turned to because I didn't havea better one.
And luckily, I found one throughcommunity, through recovery.
So I think you can't separateaddiction from mental health.
To me, they are they are deeplyintertwined.
So it's very much a part of itfor us.
But I know in the music worldthat both mental health and
(54:15):
addiction, you know, thosechallenges are everywhere.
Everywhere.
And one of the things we alsodo, now this gets back to the
guy Anders Osborne that Imentioned.
After I got sober, I was sober acouple of years, he reached out
to me and said, Hey, I have anidea for a program that would
support musicians who werehaving to get on the road and
(54:38):
tour, who are in early recovery,who are struggling.
You know, that first year ofrecovery is often very hard,
almost always.
And it was called Send Me aFriend, which is the name of one
of his songs.
And we created a nationalnetwork of people who had a year
plus sobriety who were basicallyon call to go support musicians
(54:58):
at their shows who needed help.
And this was based on Anders'experience in early recovery
when he had some people who hadlong-term sobriety.
They would come to his concertsand just be there for him.
So we brought that program tothe Phoenix.
And this is an example, I think,on the music making side.
(55:18):
I often try to like illustratehow hard that life is because a
lot of us go to concerts and seea band perform and it looks very
glamorous, right?
Seeing somebody on stage rockingout.
But the reality is thatlifestyle is city to city to
city, night after night afternight, on a bus, eating poorly,
(55:39):
staying oftentimes in not verynice places, like rinse, repeat
over and over again.
And if you are prone toaddiction or have challenges
related to mental health, that'sgoing to exacerbate it.
That is not a lifestyle that isconducive to healthy living.
SPEAKER_00 (56:06):
But, you know, while we were doing the interview, he
was very hesitant to share hisstory.
And I, you know, I kept like,you know, trying to dig, trying
to dig, and I'm thinking, ohgosh, this is a recovery story.
And he seems to be reallyhesitant to share details.
(56:26):
But then I realized when he toldme that he was only a year out
from being at Hazleton, BettyFord, I realized that he wasn't
comfortable yet.
He was still processing thewhole experience.
And sometimes it's hard to it'shard to share when you're so
close to it still.
(56:47):
Is that true?
SPEAKER_01 (56:48):
I think very much so.
Yeah.
I mean, if you think a lot ofpeople who got sober spend years
and years and years, you know,actively using whatever their
substance of choice might be.
So to think that, you know, onegets sober and all of a sudden
life becomes, you know, rainbowsand lollipops is not realistic.
(57:10):
So I think a lot of us, most ofus, have to undergo a real
transformation.
It's a major life shift.
And it's a beautiful life shift.
But finding your community,finding your people, becoming
comfortable with yourself againin a different way, figuring out
how to enter new environments,you know, whether it's work or
(57:32):
going to concerts or, you know,going to a party, these things
for me, it took me years beforeI felt truly okay with it.
You know, and that's part of thejourney of recovery, I think.
It takes time.
And so I'm almost 14 years intothis.
It's just, you know, a part ofwho I am.
(57:53):
And I'm kind of an open bookwith my recovery.
But it wasn't always that way,that's for sure.
I was really self-conscious andscared for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (58:01):
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's understandablefor someone to feel that way,
you know, going through traumasactually, sometimes having to
emotionally get down deep intowhat's maybe causing an
addiction or changing routines,changing friends.
I mean, there's so much that youhave to adjust to.
And then on top of that, youknow, Trapper would say, I'm a
(58:25):
work in progress.
SPEAKER_01 (58:27):
The goal is for recovery to be fun, right?
Like that's when the magichappens.
When you recognize, wait aminute, if I make this change
and I've surround myself withthe right people, my life can be
more full than I ever imagined.
Wow.
That's the real good stuffthere.
So finding ways to connect withthe Phoenix with almost a
(58:52):
million people that have foundeach other through that
organization.
I would say come check us out atthephoenix.org.
We also have an app called NewForm.
All of our programs are free.
There's no cost to join.
And I would encourage everybodythat is listening to check out
(59:12):
what's available.
You know, I do think everybody'ssober experience is finding what
works for you and surroundingyourself with a community of
people that you're on the samepage with.
And this is a great way to dothat.
SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Trapper Shep,
and our expert, Bill Taylor ofthe Phoenix.
For more information on TrapperShep, his tour, and his latest
album, Osborne, visitTrappershep.com and also stay
tuned to listen to a clip ofTrapper's song Satan is Real,
Satan is a Sackler at the end ofour episode.
(59:50):
For more information on thePhoenix and their sober events,
visit the Phoenix.org.
And for the largest online listof free and affordable mental
health Help in AddictionRecovery Solutions, visit Check
Your Head Podcast.com.
Also, be our friends and like uson social media at Check Your
Head Podcast.
(01:00:10):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental help andaddiction recovery you need.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:19):
They took all my joy, they took all my laughter,
they took all the hope.
The child could be the after.
They started it all.
They started the battle that Iwant to do.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:11):
Visit Check Your Head Podcast.com where we have
over 100 solutions for mentalhelp.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
CheckYourhead Podcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
(01:01:34):
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check In Podcast, the podcast where
notable musicians and expertsshare their stories and
solutions for mental health andaddiction recovery.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, andtoday our musical guest, Trapper
Shepp, boosted his career afterdiscovering old lyrics of an
unfinished song written by BobDylan about his home state of
(00:27):
Wisconsin.
Trapper took those lyrics anddecided to finish the song he
called On Wisconsin.
So when Bob Dylan heard aboutthis, Trapper officially became
a co-writer with Bob Dylan forthe song On Wisconsin.
News that quickly spread toRolling Stone and newspapers
across the country.
(00:49):
When Trapper finally got to meethis boyhood hero, Bob Dylan,
this happy moment actuallyhappened during the most
miserable time in his life.
Trapper was battling a seriousopioid addiction.
And in our interview, Trappershares how he fought a 10-year
addiction to opioids, his recentstay at the Hazleton Betty Ford
(01:10):
Clinic, and while there, wroteall the songs on his new album,
Osborne, and also how musicplayed a big part in his
healing.
We'll also play a clip of hissong, Satan is Real, Satan is a
Sackler, at the end of ourepisode.
Next, we spotlight anorganization that has made
(01:30):
sobriety cool and fun, growing acommunity that's close to a
million strong.
Today I talk with Bill Taylor,director of music programs for
the Phoenix, a sober communitythat's focused on activities
along with ongoing support andhealing.
Bill shares how the upcomingevents by the Phoenix not only
(01:52):
supports music fans, but alsothe artists who perform on
stage.
But first, let's hear ourfeatured musician, Trapper Shep,
share his story.
You did that song on Wisconsin,lyrics with Bob Dylan, and you
finished part of it, and then hecontacted you, and you guys
(02:14):
ended up finishing that songtogether.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
So in 1960, on the day he went into the recording
studio to begin work on hisfirst album, he wrote a song
about my home state ofWisconsin.
And uh he did not finish thesong, and the producer didn't
choose it for the album.
And 57 years later, I wasscrolling through Facebook and I
(02:44):
saw this article that said longlost lyrics by Bob Dylan about
Wisconsin up for auction$30,000.
And I thought, well, damn, Ican't afford that.
But what about if I finish thesong for Bob instead?
So I just took that upon myself.
I finished the song, I put itout there, and uh eventually,
(03:08):
yeah, Rolling Stone took notice,Billboard took notice, then Bob
Dylan's lawyers took notice.
And uh we ended up reaching anagreement to where I was the
official co-writer of OnWisconsin, as we called it.
But yeah, it it kind of tiesinto my recovery journey as
(03:29):
well, because I think in 2019was the year when I realized
that I really had an issue withall these different prescription
painkillers that were prescribedto me.
And uh it it all startedphysical with spinal
decompression surgery, and thenthese things turn out
(03:52):
psychological.
So it was that year which was ayear of many congratulations in
order for that momentouschildhood dream coming to
fruition.
But really behind the scenes, Iwas struggling pretty bad.
I got to the end of a tour anduh called my mom and I said,
(04:13):
Mom, you know, I'm reallystruggling with this, this, and
I also need a haircut.
She was like, go get a haircutto start and then we'll work on
the rest.
But I ended up just whiteknuckling it, and I kind of got
through that period on my own.
And later is uh when I realizedthat I needed more outside help.
(04:37):
Even though I had uh kind ofcleared the painkillers out of
my system years later, otheraddictions slipped through, and
I ended up getting some help atthe uh Hazelden Betty Ford
Center, the Osborne unit.
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Let me stop you there, because I find it really
interesting.
I read you were into BMX biking,you got into an accident, you
had to do multiple spinalsurgeries, and you were
prescribed opioids forpainkillers.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
Yeah, and after I left the Mayo clinic after
having really just one intensivesurgery, they gave me two
different prescriptions, andthey almost kind of said, Hey,
you'll get a tolerance to onevery quickly, so then alternate
to the other, and then take themboth at the same time.
(05:31):
And I was like, whoa, okay.
And I was really naive, to behonest.
And I think a lot of people werenaive who were struggling with
chronic pain in that time periodof the opioid epidemic where
they were just kind of blindlyprescribing a lot of these
(05:53):
substances.
And while many of them do haveuse in a clinical setting,
they're very hard to manageoutside of that.
And that was that was myexperience.
SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
Well, one thing that really s stuck out is you said
that the prescribing doctor saysthat he prescribes a lot of
these medications, but hedoesn't get people off of them.
And then he gave you kind of anopen prescription and refills
and just pretty much was reallykind of giving you free reign to
(06:29):
take this medication, which isreally sketchy.
I mean, at that time, what wereyou thinking when the doctor
said that to you?
And then looking back, what doyou think about it now?
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Well, I do think that just pointing fingers is
kind of the easy way out, right?
Because if you just say, well,it's it's this person's fault or
this doctor's fault, it's abigger societal issue and
problem.
And the doctor is just a productof that environment.
(07:08):
And if they see someone who'ssuffering, they are going to try
to treat that in a way that theyhave been taught to do.
But it did really stick with mewhen I brought up to one of the
doctors, hey, I think I'maddicted to these medications,
and I'll never forget himsaying, you know, well, I've
(07:31):
I've never had a patient becomeaddicted to these medications.
You're you're just dependent.
I'm like, well, the line betweendependency and addiction is is
blurry at best.
He also said to me, We we helppeople get on these medications.
We don't help people get off ofthem.
(07:53):
I was like, whoa, that that'skind of evil.
Because these prescriptionsreally alter the way your brain
interprets pain.
It makes you so much moresensitive to pain.
That's the irony of painkillersand long-term use, is that your
(08:13):
body becomes so much moresensitive to pain, and you have
to take more and more of theseto treat the pain.
And then you find yourself inthis vicious cycle.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Let me ask you something, because you know,
fortunately, I've I've neverreally tried any kind of opioid.
I fortunately haven't had anysituation where I've had a lot
of pain.
But I do remember when I was inpharmaceuticals, I was in
pharmaceuticals for 13 years.
And I remember, thankfully, Inever had to promote an
addictive drug, but I doremember there were certain
(08:47):
physicians that were alwaysprescribing the addictive drugs,
you know, and it was like thismill where people would go in
and get the prescription and,you know, pay the doctor for
that office visit.
And, you know, we always reallyjust looked down on those
doctors because we knew what wasgoing on.
(09:08):
I mean, that is a realinteresting description that a
painkiller is actually causingyou more sensitivity to pain.
Do you feel like maybe thismedication was set up to get
people addicted?
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
I cannot answer that.
You know, I'm a work in progressstill in my recovery, and I
don't have all the answers, butI do think that, say, the Sagler
family, you know, they createddrugs knowing that they were
highly addictive, and theyhelped implement the pain scale
(09:50):
one to ten and promoted the ideaof chronic incurable pain.
So I think that too kind ofkeeps someone feeling like
they're in this victim loop oflike, well, it's it's chronic
incurable pain.
But I think that it's reallyeasy to villainize big pharma,
(10:14):
it's easy to villainize doctors,it's easy to villainize the
drugs themselves, but they'reall a product of a much bigger
environment and a societalissue.
And I'm just a work in progress.
I don't have all the answers,but as someone who has gotten
(10:35):
through that part of myaddiction, the opioid part, I
can say that they are hard ashell to come off.
And I don't wish that uponanyone.
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Well, that's why I gave you a big congratulations,
because I just heard it was justone of the most difficult drugs
to get off of.
SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
And other substances crept in.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
Like what?
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
Well, I can say this.
I had fully gotten through allof the opioids, and I felt that
I was in a good place to treatmy chronic pain and try to work
on some of my anxiety withcannabis.
(11:37):
And I think that the cannabis ofBob Marley's years is much
different than the cannabis,like the high octane stuff.
And uh, I got really lost inthat.
And what had happened was I wason a tour and using using that a
(12:01):
lot.
And what happened was I ended upmixing that with steroids that I
was legally prescribed and goinginto just going mad, like
completely going into mania,going into a state of psychosis
(12:21):
and mania.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
Did you have hallucinations or no?
I mean, what were some of thethings that happened to you that
you know, some people even blackout, they don't even remember.
What was maybe a couple thingsthat you did that you even look
back and were really shocked ormaybe even embarrassed?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Oh, I mean, a lot.
But it presented itself in thelack of situational awareness to
speak, generally, a lack of needof sleep at all, you know,
basically delusions of grandeur,putting myself in dangerous
(13:05):
situations.
You know, if there was a cop whowas wearing a flag on his vest,
I would speak very candidly tothat uh policeman.
I just found myself getting intosituations where in this manic
state, my body could not keep upwith my brain, and I would act
(13:29):
on impulses.
Basically, though, you speak topeople with addiction, and the
common denominator is thembecause we talk about opioids,
we talk about alcohol, talkabout cannabis, amphetamines,
whatever you want to talk about,the common denominator is the
(13:53):
person using part of recovery isworking through your resentments
and trying to get down to theroot of what made you want to
use to begin with.
SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
And what was that for you?
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Well, it did start with chronic pain, and
oftentimes throughout my life,it has been treating a physical
ailment, and then it becomespsychological, and the wheels
are in motion, and the viciouscycle starts, and you get on
that wheel, and it's hard to getoff it, you know.
(14:35):
I do think that oftentimes drugsare a symptom of something else,
and that it's not a moralfailure upon the person who uses
the substance.
And I just think talking aboutit like me and you are right now
is important because itdestigmatizes the issues
(14:59):
surrounding addiction anddestigmatizes the shame, the
isolation, and uh those are twothings that really keep people
from asking for help, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Right.
It's true.
And that was the other thing youhad mentioned about being
psychological.
I hear so many stories, and thehard part also about addiction
is going through the therapy tokind of find out what the wounds
you might have or what it wasthat your addiction was covering
(15:34):
up or soothing you.
So I was gonna ask you, werethere any mental health
challenges that you had beforeor even after your treatment,
your addiction?
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
And continue to have.
I'm a work in progress.
And I think you know, it's okayto be a work in progress.
It's okay to feel like adumpster fire sometimes.
It's okay to be a hot mess.
I think we're all working onourselves.
And and as long as you canextend some grace and compassion
(16:08):
towards yourself, it's mucheasier along that path.
And I think early on in myrecovery, I felt like it was
this race that I had to sort ofcheck all these boxes and then
enlightenment, or I would becured, or I wouldn't have
(16:30):
cravings.
But that's typically not thereality.
That happens with time.
The three Ts, things take time.
I just don't think it's blackand white, these issues
surrounding addiction.
It's very complicated and veryindividual.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
I mean, that's why, you know, they call it a journey
because you're alwaysdiscovering something new,
you're always managing and evenchanging different ways to
manage whatever it is that we'reall going through.
I know you mentioned a timewhere you had some mania, but
you know, there are things likedepression and anxiety and ADHD
(17:12):
or panic attacks.
Were any of those things part ofyour journey, you know, as you
were going through all of this?
SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
Yeah, I think coming off of substances definitely has
led to depression, and I thinkthat's okay.
And change is really hard.
It's not just change, it's beingopen to change.
And I heard once that a drunkenhorse thief who gets sober is
(17:45):
still a horse thief, and I lovedthat because it it uh you're
able to see your issues muchmore clearly when you peel the
substances away.
And there were a lot of thingsgoing on in my life leading up
to going to Hazleton thatcontributed toward some of that
(18:09):
mania.
It's not always as easy assaying, well, this is the drugs,
or it's because of this, it'sbecause of this.
I learned in early recovery thatthings aren't black and white,
they're gray.
You know, is this a test?
Is this torture like going torehab or early recovery?
(18:32):
It's a little bit of both.
And if this wasn't hard, thenyou probably wouldn't have
needed it to begin with, right?
Because if it was easy, thenlight bulb, then you're fine.
But in a sense, it seems hard,it's a sign that you need to
(18:53):
keep going and find an alignmentin your life that's clear
without substances, but it'shard.
It's just hard.
SPEAKER_00 (19:03):
Well, you know, one thing that stuck out to me is
you said before you went toHazleton, you Googled a quote
and you found that OzzieOsbourne said about Hazleton,
you said that was a tough one.
They don't fuck around.
In your experience, he was verysuccinct about it.
(19:24):
In your experience, would youagree or disagree with that?
SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Hazleton does not fuck around.
And I learned there very earlyon that it is not a place that
caters to uh people wanting tofeel comfortable.
That's not what it's about.
Getting clean and sober is notabout personal comfort.
(19:54):
If you want comfort, you can goto Malibu and sit on a beach and
get clean.
And there's tons of rehabcenters where you can do that.
And I don't think one person'spath needs to be like the other
person's path.
But Hazleton, Minnesota, is nota hold your hand, everything's
(20:17):
gonna be okay.
It's a little bit more toughlove.
Yeah, I think Ozzie, when heshowed up to Hazleton, he was
like, Where's the cocktail?
You know, he thought that theywere gonna help him drink like a
gentleman, you know.
I think that was his quote.
I went to Hazleton because I wasborn in Minnesota, and my old
(20:41):
drummer had gone to Hazleton,and I had actually performed at
Hazleton once for an alumnievent that they had.
So I felt some sort of bond.
I'd known that there were someum musicians who had gone there,
and that was definitely not thereason I went there, but on the
(21:02):
train ride there, yeah, IGoogled Ozzie Hazelden because I
had heard he had gone there andI stumbled upon that quote.
And then lo and behold, I wasplaced in the Osborne unit.
There were like heavy metalartwork and copies of the
Osborns on DVD.
(21:23):
So Ozzie became sort of thisspiritual guide for the album.
Pretty funny for a folk rockerfrom Wisconsin.
Yeah, I kind of thought, well,if Ozzie can do it, I can do it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:36):
There you go.
That's all we're trying to dohere.
Nice.
Yeah, Ozzy was on so many drugs.
I think they had a scientificstudy to see how he actually was
able to live, you know, as longas he did.
But here's the thing aboutHazleton, it's well known, but
if it's tough love, I mean,what's the experience when you
(21:58):
first get in?
You know, like the first couplethings that they do as far as
tough love.
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
Well, I don't necessarily think tough love is
always bad love.
I just mean that they're prettyold school, they're no bullshit.
They don't put up with peoplebending their rules, you know.
Like for many years, people weredoor-dashing in meals, and then
(22:25):
they realized that was a waythat people were sneaking in
substances, and there are thewoods there at Hazleton, and
people were meeting at the edgeof the woods, and there's a
famous story about Eric Claptonwho swam across the lake at
Hazleton to go to a bar, youknow.
(22:48):
But as far as the treatment andcare there, I think it is really
good.
You know, staying in a room withother patients for
accountability, I think thingslike that are good.
And sticking to their meals andtheir programming, and there is
an element to recovery whichdemands a bit of rigorous
(23:11):
honesty with yourself and beinga bit uncomfortable, but I think
their level of care is ispretty, pretty remarkable in
that the people there are lovingand very educated and at the top
of their field.
Just the speakers that theywould bring in every day was
(23:34):
just remarkable.
Everybody wants to get clean andsober, but nobody wants to do
the dishes.
And the dishes are the everydaymaintenance work.
You know, that's the hard,mundane work that comes after
your recovery.
But post-acute withdrawalsyndrome, which can last years,
(23:55):
which is the physical andpsychological withdrawals that
you have from medications.
So oftentimes people think thatyou just sort of get sober and
then it's you're good, right?
So for me, I've been trying tomeditate more.
(24:17):
I've been trying to swim in LakeMichigan, take cold showers, the
cold exposure therapy in the WimHof has been powerful for me.
That's a nice way to kind ofshock your system.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
And yeah, we had an expert actually talk about the
Wim Hof method.
He was he was a trainer thatactually trained with Wim Hof.
So we had him on the podcast.
So yeah, it's uh it's somethinga lot a lot of people do, and I
think it's gotten more popular.
So, how does that help you?
SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
It's just a reset.
You know, it's like this quickphysical reset where you take 30
fast inhalations, exhalations,and you breathe out and you hold
for up to two minutes.
That's kind of the the longesttime I've been able to do it.
And then you breathe out, andthen you kind of restart the
(25:13):
process over and over and do itas many times as you want.
But then in cold exposuretherapy, whether that's just
cold showers or cold plunges, orfor me, I try to go in like
Michigan as long as I cantolerate it.
And it's just about slowing downyour breathing, because I think
(25:37):
a lot of people, when you getinto cold water, you
hyperventilate or your breathingstarts to get really fast.
And when you're able to slowdown your breathing, you're
training your mind to it'sbasically a stress response form
of therapy.
(25:57):
That physical work that you doin your recovery.
I mean, that that's huge becauseit is such a physical game.
There's a lot of things that youcan do in in recovery, I think,
to soften the blow and make it alittle bit easier for yourself.
But yeah, those are a few thingsfor me: the cold exposure,
(26:23):
breath work, meditation, tryingto eat right, trying to sleep
right, working out.
Yeah.
Those have been important forme.
SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
Yeah, those are really great things to reset,
you know, anxiety reduction,kind of calming your body down,
and long-term benefits too,especially with meditation.
Sleep is super important becauseyou're healing, you know, during
that time.
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
Remember, I wasn't withdrawing from opioids when I
was at Hazleton.
It was in 2019.
That was when I was whiteknuckling and trying to get off
of those, right?
That was at home.
But I don't know, it's kind ofhell.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Wait, wait, so what were you being treated for at
Hazleton while you were there?
SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
The mania, the sort of psychosis I was in, and it
was from there were multiplethings, but it was mostly
because I had been overdoing thecannabis big time and mixing it
with steroids, and I was sick.
(27:36):
There were other medications Iwas prescribed at that time.
But here's the thing (27:40):
when you go to a rehab facility, you're
not just treating what you have,what you're coming off at that
moment.
You're treating the person as awhole, right?
They take into account all ofyour past substance use, it's
not just one thing.
(28:02):
With addiction, we oftenoversimplify and we say, oh,
well, he's an alcoholic, orhe's, you know, a junkie or
whatever it is.
And it's it's always morecomplicated than that.
You know, there's always more atplay.
But when I first was coming offof painkillers, it was very,
(28:25):
very difficult to, you know, thebasic things, eat, sleep, you
know, move about.
It was very, very difficulthaving increased anxiety and
depression and all the thingsyou hear people talk about when
they come off of those meds,just feeling kind of shaky and
(28:48):
totally off-kilter and offbalance.
I want to be clear too, youknow, I was someone that was
taking these medicationstypically as prescribed.
I was taking them for a longperiod to try to treat a
physical ailment.
But it says on the bottle, takeone with breakfast, take one
(29:11):
with lunch, take one withdinner.
And usually I didn't even dothat, but it's the length that
you're taking these medications,and it's like you're just
putting these little band-aidsall over your your issues when
you're using.
And they can be useful forpeople, and there's a lot of
(29:32):
people suffering and struggling,and I don't want to negate that
either.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Right.
Sometimes the hardest part is,you know, going to therapy and,
you know, talking about thosethings that issues where you put
band-aids on them usingaddiction or other things, you
know, it could be shopping, itcould be sex.
And you had mentioned that therewere situations before you went
into Hazleton that really kindof encouraged you to to go in.
(30:00):
I mean, what were those issuesthat were you putting band-aids
on, like the big issues that youwere having to deal with at the
time?
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Oh man.
One, I had a stalker at thetime.
It was not fun.
And it definitely took its tollon me and was making me
extremely paranoid.
That was frightening.
That was a component where Ifelt very uncomfortable.
(30:30):
And I felt like I was in thisfight or flight mode.
And yeah, I'm kind of going backto that moment now.
And I feel like I would wake upreally early in the morning and
just like my body would awakento try to protect myself.
And then when you're usingsubstances that increase
paranoia, you're you're gettingextremely paranoid.
(30:53):
And I think there are unresolvedbits of PTSD from BMX bicycle
accidents of my youth.
One that I had spinaldecompression surgery on, one of
which I will not disclose due toits graphic content.
(31:14):
Another really bad BMX bikeaccident.
A lot of people want to suppressnegative things.
And, you know, there's thatbook, The Body Keeps a Score.
It definitely kept the score forme.
And that's that's why I say thatwhen you go to treatment, when
(31:35):
you go to rehab, they tend totreat the whole person, not just
the addiction that is, you know,at the surface, because that
addiction is typically asymptom.
And I think that's reallyimportant to recognize that
addiction and dependence is nota moral failure.
(31:58):
It's oftentimes a way thatsomeone is trying to solve a
problem.
And like I said, it startedphysical with me and it turned
psychological.
That's a tough spot to be in,but I think that's very, very
common.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
You know, I was talking about therapy, and you
were talking about how it becamepsychological.
I mean, what were thediscoveries that you found in
therapy for yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (32:27):
There is unresolved trauma from bicycle accidents of
my youth, and I never reallywanted to sit with the
uncomfortable feelings there.
It sort of laid the groundworkfor some of my abuse that I
wanted to just push away thosenegative emotions.
(32:49):
And then also just that quickfix, you know, that happens with
these opioid medications.
It's such a band-aid.
And there have just been far toomany moments in my 20s where,
yes, I had back pain, but youknow, if there was something
(33:10):
going on, you put a band-aidover that.
And you put a band-aid overthat, and then you become a
human band-aid.
You become a band-aid mummy.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsI've uncovered, and and it's
like you peel back all thelayers of the onion, and onions
can kind of make you cry.
And yeah, sometimes when youkeep digging and you keep
(33:32):
digging into your yourself, thatisn't always helpful either.
So in addiction recovery,there's a big emphasis on our
moral defects.
And I try not to focus entirelyon that because I think you need
a level of compassion and graceand humility and kindness with
(33:56):
yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
Right.
Well, thank you for letting meknow about that.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
I think too that oftentimes we look at people who
have addiction issues, and wethink, oh, well, they all had a
bad childhood, or it's becauseof the way they were raised.
And for me, it never was that.
I I did have a good, a goodchildhood and good parents and a
(34:25):
good family.
But I have endured quite a bitof physical pain in my life.
And the body keeps the score.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
What does that mean though?
The body keeps the score.
SPEAKER_02 (34:38):
The body keeps the score.
It means that you have traumaand pain that's stored up in
your body unconsciously, andthat it's there.
It's there in you, whether youlike it or not.
So the BMX bicycle accidents Imentioned in my youth, you know,
(35:01):
all that pain, the trauma of notjust the events, but the pain
afterwards and all themedications and going on and off
them, it's a lot of pain thatyou're carrying around.
I mean, you hear a lot aboutgenerational trauma, of passing
(35:23):
down that trauma unconsciously.
That's what I'm speaking of toois your body holds what it
cannot handle.
What you don't want toemotionally deal with, your body
will physically hold on to that.
And it will find ways to ariseat a later date.
SPEAKER_00 (35:45):
Right.
You know, everybody that ends upgoing to to treatment and going
through this psychological part,yeah, it is difficult.
It's difficult and it's scarybecause, you know, sometimes we
don't even know what's going on,and it's confusing for other
people too, because we might notbe acting the way that we
normally act.
I mean, because I've gonethrough depression, I've gone
(36:06):
through anxiety, I'm doingreally good now, you know.
But the thing is you never know,you know, when something else is
gonna crop up.
And then again, time to thinkabout managing and all that.
So now that, yay, you're out ofrehab, you mentioned something
about cannabis, which I think isreally important because I think
(36:28):
sometimes when people talk aboutcannabis, especially now that
it's legal in a lot of states,that it's much safer than some
of the other drugs.
And it can be, you know, in somecircumstances, but but I've
heard of other people that haveactually come on the podcast
that say if you take cannabis ona regular basis or too much,
(36:49):
that you can like flip intopsychosis.
And, you know, you had thatexperience.
So it's I'm just remindingpeople that, you know, it's not
as innocent as it looks, youknow, sometimes that it can
really have some bad effects.
So now you just got out ofHazleton not that long ago.
SPEAKER_02 (37:07):
April or May of last year.
So about a year and a half.
I went straight from Hazleton,went on tour not long after
that, and it was actually prettygreat.
The tour was fine, and uh I havereally good support.
I have a great fiance, mybandmates are all really solid,
(37:32):
and I think that's importanttoo.
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, you've gotten to a pointwhere you you have a taste of
this new life for yourself.
You know, what are some of thethings that you find that are
really different?
Maybe good or bad.
Things that are joyous or thingsthat are like, oh wow, I didn't
expect that.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Yeah, I think I've just learned that you have to
work harder to feel good, youknow, especially after you've
kind of put your brain throughthis this rigmarole for a while
where you're used to kind of thequick fixes.
You have to work harder to feelbetter.
And it's not all thatchallenging for many people to
(38:15):
get sober, it's kind ofregaining your equilibrium and
sense of stability and joyoutside of that.
That takes work, and I am a workin progress.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
So, last question I'm gonna ask about treatment,
because I again I'm reallycurious about this.
What are some methods thatyou've tried that have worked to
release all that subconsciousbody counting?
How do you do that?
SPEAKER_02 (38:46):
Well, I think like my album, right?
Like why we're here, you know,the album called Osborne,
written in early recovery, itwas extremely raw, you know,
very vulnerable and very honest.
That kind of felt like anatonement in a way.
(39:06):
It's like you're paying a tollto yourself and maybe to the
greater universe when you kindof create that artwork that
reflects on what's been storedup inside you.
And I think making art is areally powerful way to express
(39:28):
what you've been through.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Do you have a final message you would give your fans
or other people that arestruggling with addictions, you
know, as far as regaining theirlife again?
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Don't waste your suffering.
Just because you're goingthrough the darkness doesn't
mean that there won't be light.
You can be of use to otherpeople.
You can be there for people whoare going through what you're
going through, and that that'sof great value, you know.
There's good in that.
(40:01):
You know, I don't have all theanswers, but I think that's okay
too.
SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
Next up, we'll talk about the Phoenix with Bill
Taylor, the man in charge of theorganization's sober music
events.
Their first event started in alittle town in Vermont, and now
these events are spreadingacross the country.
Bill is also in recovery, andwe'll talk about how the Phoenix
is building an active sobercommunity that thrives on
(40:30):
connection, support, and healingwhile also having a ton of fun.
Now let's hear Bill Taylor talkabout this new sobriety shift,
and while you don't need drugsor alcohol, to party hard.
Can you give me a brief story onyour story with addiction and
recovery?
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, real briefly, I moved to NewOrleans right after college.
I was drawn there.
I went to my first jazz fest andwas just blown away by the city,
by the culture, by the people.
So I would say a struggle I washaving, you know, with alcohol
became more than that.
(41:12):
And that went on for a number ofyears after Katrina.
And finally in 2011, I asked forhelp from a musician who's a
very well-known New Orleansmusician, Anders Osborne, who
had been sober for a couple ofyears.
And he started me on the path tosobriety.
And that relationship, thatpartnership with Anders has been
(41:33):
a very significant one, both forme professionally as well as in
my recovery.
So once I hit that moment whereI knew I needed help, it opened
up a door to a whole new worldthat I could never have imagined
because things were pretty,pretty desperate at that time.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
You know, I hear a lot about the sober community
and how it's so important to beconnected to that community
while you're maintaining yoursobriety.
And I want to get into that, butI do want everyone to know up
front what the Phoenix is about.
SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
Yeah, the Phoenix is a national organization.
So we have a footprint all overthe country.
It's a sober community thatfocuses on activities, whether
it's rock climbing or going toconcerts.
Now we're coming very close toreaching a million members of
the Phoenix, which that's areally powerful community of
(42:29):
people that are sober who arewilling to not just support each
other, but actually go out anddo things together.
So it ranges on activities,oftentimes depending on the
area.
You know, in Colorado, there'srock climbing, and it's really
just about people comingtogether through activities
they're passionate about andlifting each other up.
(42:50):
And I think it's resonated.
Like for me, when I got sober, Ihad no idea that there were
communities out there that couldlift me up and support me
through that journey.
I just, I knew I had an issue.
I made a phone call to somebodyI knew who had made some changes
in his life.
And then all of a sudden, thesenew worlds opened up to me.
(43:12):
In my experience, it's very hardto navigate that on your own.
It's finding communities ofpeople that you can share the
journey with that really allowedme to start to flourish in my
sobriety.
So Phoenix has been buildingthat community over many years.
And with a focus on music,relatively recently, so I've
been with the organization forfour years.
(43:34):
I was really the first person todig into the music side of it.
I think music is one of theareas that we can all agree, we
all share that passion on somelevel.
It brings people together in away that is pretty special.
So being able to bring musicinto the community of Phoenix
members has been awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (43:54):
Well, thank you for doing that because any music
lover can tell you that when youare at a show or a festival with
a bunch of like-minded musiclovers, there is something
special.
There's a feeling, there's anexcitement, there's an
understanding that doesn't evenhave to be talked about.
And the energy that you get fromthe music, you know, the
(44:16):
musicians, the artists, and whatthose artists also receive from
the audience is really it's kindof magical, the healing that
takes place.
So I'm excited to hear aboutsome of the music events on your
website.
SPEAKER_01 (44:32):
Just to piggyback on what you were saying as we segue
into the events, I do thinkmusic is everything you just
said.
And I think when you really boilit down, that's what music does.
But it's also can be a very hardindustry to navigate.
If you're a musician, you haveto live a pretty grueling
lifestyle, being on tour all thetime, going from city to city to
(44:55):
city.
It can be a really difficultlifestyle.
And there's obviously drugs andalcohol everywhere.
Same thing if you're going tosee music.
I remember when I initiallystarted to go see concerts
again, I was scared, you know,because I would go into venues
where there was alcoholeverywhere and it was daunting.
(45:15):
So I think it's really importantas there becomes more of a focus
on mental health, overallwellness, supporting those in
recovery in this industry,making space for that is really
important because it can, it canfeel isolating, whether you work
in the industry or you justreally love going to see
(45:36):
concerts to enter that world,especially if you're newly
sober.
So that's important to note.
And a lot of the work we do isaimed at making sure there are
safe spaces at events thatpeople can be connected with
others in sobriety when they goout and see music.
Or the musicians who are outthere filling our cup every
(45:58):
night, they have the necessarysupport that they need while
they're out on the road.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
Right.
I'm glad you brought that up.
It was a lot of things that cametogether that really made me
want to focus on the Phoenix.
You know, as part of thepodcast, I have a friend who is
sober from an alcohol addiction,and he invited me to it was a
music retreat, sort of like yogameditation.
(46:25):
And he told me that he only goesto sober events.
And I'm like, oh wow, that'scool.
You know, I would think that thejoy of being at a music event
and then putting on top of thatthe support and the atmosphere
of having uh sober people aroundyou while you're, you know,
(46:46):
managing your sobriety wouldeven take it to a higher level,
even feeling more safe,supported, secure, and you know,
all those good things.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
Yes, right.
But without the community ofpeople that you can surround
yourself with, that becomesreally hard.
One of the focuses we've had issaying, okay, where in the music
space can we add value and helpto nurture the community of
people who are seeking others,you know, who are walking the
same path of recovery, or eventhose that are, you know,
(47:19):
dealing with mental healthchallenges.
Where are my people out there sothat I can get back to doing the
things I love, whetherperforming music or going to see
music?
So we've done a lot of soberspaces at events, big events,
small events.
You know, we've been at the NewOrleans Jazz Fest, which is a
very large event.
We've been at Coachella andsmaller ones too.
(47:42):
Then two years ago, we startedour own substance-free festival.
And this is in partnership withan organization called the
Divided Sky Foundation, whichwas founded by Trey Anastasio
from the band Fish.
And we do this substance-freefestival.
It's called Music on theMountain, right there in Ludlow,
(48:03):
Vermont, right near where thetreatment center is located.
And it's a weekend's worth ofmusic, no alcohol,
substance-free.
And our idea behind this waswhat if we could start doing our
own events that showed how muchfun people could have if you
just eliminate, you know, thebooze, et cetera.
(48:25):
And it has taken off in a reallypowerful way.
We've had thousands of peopleevery year come to this.
So we do it at like a ski resortright at the base of the
mountain.
We do singer-songwriter, like anin the rounds on Friday night.
There's a run in the morning onSaturday, followed by a full-day
festival.
And then we do an acousticbrunch on Sunday morning.
(48:48):
So this has been a really coolundertaking because it's kind of
different.
There, there are not many ofthese.
Like finding music events thatdon't serve alcohol is not easy
to do.
So it was a bit of a leap offaith in year one, but we got
our concept after that firstyear.
Then this past spring, it wasjust, it was just beautiful.
(49:13):
So trying to show people, likecreate environments for people
where they feel safe.
It's almost like if you removethe alcohol, the goal is can we
still have the same experience,same fun, same vibe, the joy,
and all that?
And the answer to that questionis yes.
I think the biggest win aboutthis event is that you don't
(49:36):
even feel like you're missingit.
It's like a non-issue because itis such a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Well, the funny thing is, is you know, people
grow up with these ideas on whatit means to have fun.
And maybe their family historyor maybe, you know, just the
tagline sex, drugs, and rock androll, might equate to them, hey,
this is what I need to do inorder to have fun.
SPEAKER_01 (49:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:00):
But we don't even consciously think about it
sometimes, right?
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
I mean, no, we we we grow up with that sort of
ingrained in our thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
Right.
It's everywhere.
So the thing that I found with alot of people that I've asked
this is, you know, what is soberpartying like now?
And you know what?
All of them say it's so muchbetter because I'm clear, I can
express my emotions and be withmy friends and be present
(50:31):
instead of being clouded ormaybe distracted by you know,
drugs and alcohol or whatever itis.
So I could see where that's ashift in thinking.
But I think once you're on boardand you experience it, you
realize, hey, there's somethingto this.
SPEAKER_01 (50:50):
Yeah.
The shift is an important,that's an important word that
you use because we talk aboutmore broadly at the Phoenix
about creating a movement.
So it's not just for people whoare, you know, straight up
sober.
It's for anybody that is onboard with being supportive of
this experience.
(51:11):
Like everybody has a loved oneor a friend, or, you know,
they're in some way touched byalcoholism and addiction.
It's just everywhere in oursociety.
So by providing sort of anon-ramp for people to do
something about that, to supporttheir loved ones or seek the
help they need or find thecommunity they need, it's so
(51:31):
important.
It's so important.
And having these experienceswhere we bring people together,
we talk about in the musicindustry, like, what would a
paradigm shift look like?
What you said, sex, drugs, androck and roll.
Maybe there's another way tolook at this music world that
tilts a little more in thedirection of why don't we
(51:52):
support each other?
Why don't we focus on wellnessand healing?
That's what music does.
That's at the heart of it, Ithink, or that connects us so
deeply to music is that it givesmeaning to our lives.
So more and more we're lookingat our work as hopefully being a
part of a paradigm shift in theindustry and then more broadly
(52:13):
as well in society.
But I think music and musiciansand artists really help shape
our culture in the world we livein.
It's been that way for a verylong time, maybe forever.
They help shine a light on theissues we're dealing with.
They speak the truth, theyconnect us to our souls and to
one another.
And the idea that maybe thismusic world could shift a little
(52:38):
bit, you know, and the focus canbe really on the art and the
connection and the communityrather than I need to go out and
blow it out with drugs andalcohol.
SPEAKER_00 (52:48):
Well, you know, as you were talking, it made me
think that, you know, therereally should be a new tagline
instead of sex, drugs, and rockand roll.
SPEAKER_01 (52:56):
We need to come up with one.
SPEAKER_00 (52:57):
Yeah, and I'm not trying to damper anyone's party,
but you know, we want to keeppeople safe.
We want people to live longenough so that they can enjoy
all these moments, you know,being clear.
And one thing that you mentionedas you were talking about their
festival is predictions areoften a symptom of a deeper
problem, but it's somebody'schoice for a solution.
(53:20):
An unhealthy choice.
So talking about mental health,like how does that play a part
with the Phoenix?
SPEAKER_01 (53:29):
Well, I mean, I think it's just deeply
connected.
What you just described, thatoftentimes drugs and alcohol are
somebody's solution to deeperproblems, you know?
Everybody's story is different.
I should start by saying that.
I know that was the case for me.
I can certainly speak for myselfthat that was a solution that I
(53:50):
turned to because I didn't havea better one.
And luckily, I found one throughcommunity, through recovery.
So I think you can't separateaddiction from mental health.
To me, they are they are deeplyintertwined.
So it's very much a part of itfor us.
But I know in the music worldthat both mental health and
(54:15):
addiction, you know, thosechallenges are everywhere.
Everywhere.
And one of the things we alsodo, now this gets back to the
guy Anders Osborne that Imentioned.
After I got sober, I was sober acouple of years, he reached out
to me and said, Hey, I have anidea for a program that would
support musicians who werehaving to get on the road and
(54:38):
tour, who are in early recovery,who are struggling.
You know, that first year ofrecovery is often very hard,
almost always.
And it was called Send Me aFriend, which is the name of one
of his songs.
And we created a nationalnetwork of people who had a year
plus sobriety who were basicallyon call to go support musicians
(54:58):
at their shows who needed help.
And this was based on Anders'experience in early recovery
when he had some people who hadlong-term sobriety.
They would come to his concertsand just be there for him.
So we brought that program tothe Phoenix.
And this is an example, I think,on the music making side.
(55:18):
I often try to like illustratehow hard that life is because a
lot of us go to concerts and seea band perform and it looks very
glamorous, right?
Seeing somebody on stage rockingout.
But the reality is thatlifestyle is city to city to
city, night after night afternight, on a bus, eating poorly,
(55:39):
staying oftentimes in not verynice places, like rinse, repeat
over and over again.
And if you are prone toaddiction or have challenges
related to mental health, that'sgoing to exacerbate it.
That is not a lifestyle that isconducive to healthy living.
SPEAKER_00 (56:06):
But, you know, while we were doing the interview, he
was very hesitant to share hisstory.
And I, you know, I kept like,you know, trying to dig, trying
to dig, and I'm thinking, ohgosh, this is a recovery story.
And he seems to be reallyhesitant to share details.
(56:26):
But then I realized when he toldme that he was only a year out
from being at Hazleton, BettyFord, I realized that he wasn't
comfortable yet.
He was still processing thewhole experience.
And sometimes it's hard to it'shard to share when you're so
close to it still.
(56:47):
Is that true?
SPEAKER_01 (56:48):
I think very much so.
Yeah.
I mean, if you think a lot ofpeople who got sober spend years
and years and years, you know,actively using whatever their
substance of choice might be.
So to think that, you know, onegets sober and all of a sudden
life becomes, you know, rainbowsand lollipops is not realistic.
(57:10):
So I think a lot of us, most ofus, have to undergo a real
transformation.
It's a major life shift.
And it's a beautiful life shift.
But finding your community,finding your people, becoming
comfortable with yourself againin a different way, figuring out
how to enter new environments,you know, whether it's work or
(57:32):
going to concerts or, you know,going to a party, these things
for me, it took me years beforeI felt truly okay with it.
You know, and that's part of thejourney of recovery, I think.
It takes time.
And so I'm almost 14 years intothis.
It's just, you know, a part ofwho I am.
(57:53):
And I'm kind of an open bookwith my recovery.
But it wasn't always that way,that's for sure.
I was really self-conscious andscared for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (58:01):
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's understandablefor someone to feel that way,
you know, going through traumasactually, sometimes having to
emotionally get down deep intowhat's maybe causing an
addiction or changing routines,changing friends.
I mean, there's so much that youhave to adjust to.
And then on top of that, youknow, Trapper would say, I'm a
(58:25):
work in progress.
SPEAKER_01 (58:27):
The goal is for recovery to be fun, right?
Like that's when the magichappens.
When you recognize, wait aminute, if I make this change
and I've surround myself withthe right people, my life can be
more full than I ever imagined.
Wow.
That's the real good stuffthere.
So finding ways to connect withthe Phoenix with almost a
(58:52):
million people that have foundeach other through that
organization.
I would say come check us out atthephoenix.org.
We also have an app called NewForm.
All of our programs are free.
There's no cost to join.
And I would encourage everybodythat is listening to check out
(59:12):
what's available.
You know, I do think everybody'ssober experience is finding what
works for you and surroundingyourself with a community of
people that you're on the samepage with.
And this is a great way to dothat.
SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Trapper Shep,
and our expert, Bill Taylor ofthe Phoenix.
For more information on TrapperShep, his tour, and his latest
album, Osborne, visitTrappershep.com and also stay
tuned to listen to a clip ofTrapper's song Satan is Real,
Satan is a Sackler at the end ofour episode.
(59:50):
For more information on thePhoenix and their sober events,
visit the Phoenix.org.
And for the largest online listof free and affordable mental
health Help in AddictionRecovery Solutions, visit Check
Your Head Podcast.com.
Also, be our friends and like uson social media at Check Your
Head Podcast.
(01:00:10):
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental help andaddiction recovery you need.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:19):
They took all my joy, they took all my laughter,
they took all the hope.
The child could be the after.
They started it all.
They started the battle that Iwant to do.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:11):
Visit Check Your Head Podcast.com where we have
over 100 solutions for mentalhelp.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
CheckYourhead Podcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
(01:01:34):
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
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