Mari Fong interviews singer-songwriter Winona Oak and Richard "Wolfie" Wolf, meditation expert and author of In Tune: Music as a Bridge to Mindfulness.
Swedish songstress Winona Oak was a 12-year-old when her panic attacks and anxiety began, triggered by her hormonal cycle (PMDD or Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder). Winona eventually became agoraphobic but help from loved ones along with mediation and other solutions, she finally found recovery. Winona’s SHE EP represents female empowerment and how she's grown as an artist through bravery.
Next, meditation expert Richard "Wolfie" Wolf is also an Emmy-winning composer and multi-Platinum-selling music producer who’s worked with greats such as Prince, Freddie Mercury of Queen and Madonna. Richard shares his secrets on how music, mindfulness and meditation can soothe anxiety and bring daily benefits to your life.
“Be brave, ask for help, and be persistent in finding the mental help that you need.”
For free or affordable mental help, visit: http://checkyourheadpodcast.com/
* DONATE to our mission at checkyourheadpodcast.com or on our patreon.com page. Every dollar is appreciated, every listener is appreciated <3
- THANK YOU for following and liking us on social media @checkyourheadpodcast
- Watch and subscribe to our YouTube Channel: checkyourheadpodcast.youtube
Say hello and give us feedback! We love hearing from our Superhero fans ❤️🤘
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mexcited to tell you about the
(00:20):
Check Your Head podcast'sYouTube channel.
What makes our channel specialis we drop raw, unedited
interviews we call nakedinterviews that include
unexpected, behind-the-scenesmoments and bloopers with the
musicians featured on the CheckYour Head podcast.
And coming soon is our expertseries on YouTube, where
interviews with our mentalhealth experts will provide an
(00:43):
educational series that youdon't want to miss.
To find us on YouTube, simplysearch for Check Your Head
podcast, and while you're there,please subscribe to our channel
so you'll be the first to knowwhen a new episode drops.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have an up-and-comingsinger-songwriter who hails from
(01:04):
Sweden and first landed on theBillboard charts as a featured
artist on the Chainsmokers' hitsingle, Hope.
Our musical guest today isWynonna Oak, Atlantic Records'
rising star who dropped her SheEP in 2020 and was also featured
on The Late Show with StephenColbert.
Winona Oak recently dropped anew single entitled Old
(01:26):
Insecurities, which we'll beplaying a clip of later in our
episode.
Winona often shares open, honestlyrics about her anxiety and her
mental health in her music, andis just as open and honest with
her story today on living withanxiety and panic attacks, along
with her solutions.
Next, our mental health expertis an Emmy Award-winning
(01:48):
composer, amulti-platinum-selling producer,
a USC professor and author ofthe book, In Tune, Music as a
Bridge to Mindfulness.
Richard Wolfe, also known asWolfie, is our expert today, who
has worked on projects withmusical icons such as Prince,
Freddie Mercury of Queen, andMadonna, as well as working on
(02:11):
countless TV and filmsoundtracks.
Today, Richard Wolfe willexplain how music, Mindfulness
and meditation can be a naturaland effective way to reduce
anxiety and bring calm to yourlife.
But first, let's hear artistWynonna Oak share her story.
(02:31):
Congratulations on the She EP.
I really love the fact that it'sbased on being strong as a woman
and also quite a few othermessages in your lyrics and
within your songs.
And you do speak out on mentalhealth, which I really
appreciate, both in yourinterviews and your lyrics.
But I was wondering, can youtell me when or at what age you
(02:54):
first realized the importance ofmental health?
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
For me, I've always been a very sensitive person.
Even as a kid, I washypersensitive.
I think I had my first panicattack when I was 12.
So I realized...
pretty early how fragile we areas human beings and how
important it is to find balanceand find peace within yourself.
(03:24):
I still haven't found thatmissing piece really.
But I've been trying my best andI've come so far.
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
At 12 years old, a lot of musicians that come
across mood disorders like panicattacks It usually does start in
the early teens, even inelementary school.
Can you describe what it waslike when you first experienced
a panic attack at 12 years old?
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
For me, I was super scared.
I thought I was about to die.
I thought I was going to lose mymind.
So I had no idea and I was soscared.
And then it happened again.
And I told my parents about itand they were like, okay, we
think you're having a panicattack.
You're not dying.
You know, it's normal.
(04:11):
You will get through this.
And then it was a couple ofyears when it was better.
And then they came back as Iwent through like other stuff in
my life.
The worst time for my panicattacks and my anxiety was like
a couple of years ago.
And I woke up every day feelingexcited.
Like I basically woke up with apanic attack and I couldn't even
(04:32):
go to a grocery store.
I couldn't do anything.
SPEAKER_04 (04:35):
So you were kind of agoraphobic too because you were
staying at home and you weren'tgoing out as much because of the
panic attacks.
SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
Yeah, for me, it was a time in my life when I can't
even go to the grocery storebecause I feel like ground
beneath my feet is shaking.
It felt like I was on a ferryconstantly, like on a boat.
And that's pretty scary.
It gets so real when you don'treally see a difference between
reality and what's in your mind.
(05:09):
And you think you're losing yourmind.
It's so scary.
The body and mind is soconnected.
SPEAKER_04 (05:16):
Yeah, it is true.
It is scary and confusing whenyou're going through these
behaviors and thoughts that youdon't even understand.
You might even feel like, gosh,this is not even my personality.
Why am I thinking thesethoughts?
But they come, right?
What were some of the thoughtsthat you were thinking that
didn't even make sense to you?
(05:36):
Oh, so
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
many thoughts.
You know, the worst part was Ifelt like Is there an earthquake
going on?
Or is the ground shaking beneathmy feet?
Why do I feel like the ground isconstantly moving?
And just not being able to trustyourself.
Like, why can I not breathe?
Is there something wrong withme?
(05:58):
Like, constantly having thatfear of, oh, maybe this time
it's something serious.
Oh, this time could bedifferent.
What if I'm actually having aheart attack this time?
Because I feel that pain in mychest or...
I feel like you're just losingtrust in yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (06:16):
And it would come out of nowhere.
Or was there certain triggersthat would, you know, that would
spiral you into this panicattack?
SPEAKER_03 (06:24):
Some things for me are triggering because I have
specific trauma that can betriggering for me, but it could
also just come out of the blue.
That's how your brain works.
Your brain is smart and isconstantly finding new things to
like, Oh, she's having a goodtime.
Let's just make her suffocate onthis beautiful dinner.
(06:46):
Put some clouds over her head.
No, but I don't know.
It's just a lot of differentthings, but it could basically
just come out of the blue.
Also, I noticed that there canbe a big difference in my mental
health that's connected to mycycle, to my menstrual cycle.
So, you know, I'm so sensitivewhen I have PMS or during my
(07:09):
period, I get super sensitive,like even more fragile because
all of the hormones are alreadymessing with your head.
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Yeah, that was actually something that I'm
really sensitive to.
And I've fallen into depressionand anxiety because of my
hormonal shifts.
And it took me a while torealize that.
But it's amazing how much...
hormones can affect you ingeneral but it's tough because
(07:38):
it's something that you reallycan't control so much but it
does you know happen and thenall of a sudden you're like my
gosh why am I reacting sostrongly to this one comment
SPEAKER_03 (07:51):
yeah and it took me so long to realize because I
started to track my worstanxiety days and I saw oh
there's a pattern here
SPEAKER_04 (08:01):
you know
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
And I still, whenever I'm having PMS or
during my period or the daysafter, I get so sensitive and I
feel I have shortness of breathand that triggers things.
Then I feel, damn, am I fallingback into this depression hole
again or what is going on?
And then I'm like, okay, let'sjust relax and see.
And then I feel better, youknow?
SPEAKER_04 (08:21):
Right.
You start to reassure yourselfinstead of
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
going.
UNKNOWN (08:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:28):
down the bad road of thoughts.
But there are PMS, premenstrualsymptoms.
People are familiar with it.
But there are different times inlife where there's big hormonal
shifts.
You know, for men and women,there's a puberty.
That's a big one.
There's also menopause thatcomes later in life.
(08:51):
And then after you have a baby,There's the post-baby blues that
could happen.
So it's this sort ofever-changing estrogen,
progesterone, testosterone, allof these hormones that kind of
work together, but sometimes canwork against you.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
they can.
We don't really talk about thatenough because there's not
enough research on women'shealth.
So it's hard because whenthere's not enough research, we
won't ever find that help.
we need because there's notreally a cure for it so it's
yeah it's a bad spiral but i'mhoping to see more science
(09:32):
around it and because there's somuch that we can do for women's
health
SPEAKER_04 (09:38):
yeah i agree and i feel like if there's a
correlation between emotions andyour hormones for men and women
that it really should be lookedat because there can be things
done as long as science supportsit and focuses on it.
You know, one thing youmentioned that I thought was
really interesting is that youwere tracking your symptoms and
(10:02):
tracking how you feel throughoutyour day or throughout the
month.
What is it that you do there?
SPEAKER_03 (10:10):
Yeah, I just started seeing patterns in my cycle.
I started to see that it'ssomething with the hormones
that's totally changing thatmakes me feel like I can't
breathe.
And if I know that pre-hand,okay, these days I'm going to
have trouble breathing, then Idon't have to get panic attacks
or get as scared as I used to.
(10:32):
And if I know that beforehand, Ican learn to be like, okay,
these days maybe I shouldn'tplan something big.
SPEAKER_04 (10:41):
Well, that's actually really smart.
It's like you're journaling howyou feel throughout the month
according to your cycle.
And to see a trend, then atleast you can prepare yourself,
right?
You know, one thing you said wasa few years ago, you had more
(11:01):
severe anxiety and panicattacks.
Was there anyone there that yourelied on to help you?
Who was that and what was goingon there?
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
My boyfriend was there for me the entire time.
He was so supportive and hewasn't judging me or anything.
He was just there for me and myfamily and my friends.
I would call my dad as soon as Ihad a really bad anxiety attack.
And my mom all the time, just tohear her voice would calm me
(11:36):
down a lot.
So I had a really...
great support from my family andfriends and people around me.
But my boyfriend had to take alot of, you know, maybe I should
go to the hospital because I'mhaving a heart attack, you know.
And he's like, well, maybe weshould just chill a little bit.
(11:58):
And I was like, no, I'm prettysure.
And then you started Googlingand that's not something you
should do.
But yeah, I'm definitely havinga heart attack.
And I didn't, of course.
Yeah, I'm also hypochondriac, soit's kind of funny, but it's
hard because you get so limitedwhen you're not even able to
(12:18):
socialize with people because Icouldn't barely move from the
couch to the kitchen withoutfeeling like a fairy underneath
my feet.
And I was constantly havingshortness of breath and getting
so dusty and had to lay down andIf
SPEAKER_04 (12:35):
you go
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
into
SPEAKER_04 (12:36):
a
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
panic attack, how long does it normally last?
During that time, it could go onfor hours and I could have them
every day.
I could wake up with a panicattack and it could go on for
hours.
But now it can be, honestly, itcan be a short one that I'm able
to control from my breathtechnique and trying to calm
(12:58):
myself down and break it beforeit hits hard.
So that could be maybe 20minutes or it could be something
that I can't control and I can'twake up with a panic attack and
that feeling can go on for maybetwo hours
SPEAKER_04 (13:12):
oh wow that's a long
SPEAKER_03 (13:13):
time yeah
SPEAKER_04 (13:15):
I haven't had a panic attack but I know a lot of
musicians do we've had quite afew musicians that come on the
podcast talking about them andsome of them even say that they
get disconnected from realitythey could see themselves on
stage as a separate person allkinds of different things that
happen and But it really doessound terrifying.
(13:38):
And throughout the years, I'msure you've thought of ways on
your own and also asked aprofessional, what do I do in
these situations?
What have you learned that hasworked best for you to help
control the anxiety and thepanic attacks?
SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
One thing that helped me is that I saw the
pattern in my cycle and that Ican prepare myself for the days
when I know that I'm going tofeel low.
And I know people hate to hearthis, but actually to do yoga
and meditation, I know that'sone of the things you don't want
to hear when you're goingthrough something super hard.
(14:14):
It's like, oh, go for a run.
You know, that's not somethingyou want to hear.
But actually getting thoseendorphins and the serotonin in
your brain to kick off a littlebit it's going to help you a lot
so yoga and meditation hashelped me a lot and then you
learn to breathe better and takedeep breaths and just doing
(14:38):
those kinds of breath techniquesand yoga it helped me and also
having a good therapist and keeptelling myself that
SPEAKER_04 (14:49):
well it is important to have a good therapist and
you're talking about breathingtechniques which sounds really
simple but I've heard so muchabout how your breathing can
really help slow down everythingin your body and that's what you
need to do when you're panickingis that where you learned how to
do these breathing techniqueswith a therapist
SPEAKER_03 (15:11):
no that was through meditation and yoga So I learned
that while doing yoga, there's alot of breath techniques.
Yoga is basically justreconnecting to your mind and to
your soul and finding thatconnection that gets
disconnected when you're havinga panic attack or when you're
(15:32):
experiencing anxiety and weexperience traumas, you get
disconnected from yourself.
So you just find that connectionand that love for yourself.
And yoga won't help Everyone whotries it, for me, it helps.
SPEAKER_04 (15:49):
I think it's important to share what really
works for you because sometimesnatural things and ways to slow
down our physical body and ourmental, you know, our thoughts
is going to help combat that.
Now, when you talked abouttherapy, what have you found
most beneficial with therapy?
SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
I still need to go back properly to therapy,
actually.
I'm still putting that on myto-do list in the drawer.
But actually, I want to try, Idon't know if you heard about
EMDR therapy.
So I want to try that.
(16:30):
Have you tried that?
I
SPEAKER_04 (16:31):
have not tried that, but I've heard that it works for
some people.
I have a good friend of mine whodoes that EMDR and has had good
success with it.
Sometimes therapies that don'tsound like it would work, but
you got to try anything andeverything when you're in the
middle of something that can bereally terrifying because you
(16:54):
never know which one is reallygoing to click for you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:56):
Yeah.
I tried several people, though,and I never really think that I
found the right person.
And that can also be hardbecause you keep telling them
things and you open up and it'shard.
It's so important to find a goodtherapist.
SPEAKER_04 (17:13):
Yeah, it takes time to find one that has a
personality that you feel youcould trust and also somebody
that you feel is going to giveyou the skills or even the
listening ability to give youthe right advice for your
condition.
But you have a song, it's calledThe Light.
(17:34):
And that one I've read, it'sabout being on the bottom and
fighting your way back.
Can you tell me about a timethat represents that thought?
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
It's been several times in my life when I felt I
almost wanted to give up becauseI couldn't see the light.
I was just working against meand even me, I was working
against myself.
And when you're feeling sotrapped in those dark thoughts
with all your demons, it's sohard to find the way back.
(18:07):
But I wrote that song as areminder that there is a way
back and I'm...
so much better place than I was.
You know, right now I still havethings that I need to work on
and that I need to deal with andthat I haven't dealt with yet.
But there's always that in life.
(18:28):
You're always finding a way tobecome your full self and your
full potential.
But my mental health is in acompletely different place right
now.
SPEAKER_04 (18:39):
Well, you wrote the song, She.
which is an empowering songabout being a woman and speaking
your mind.
How would you explain that aspart of the chapter that you're
in right now with your life?
SPEAKER_03 (18:56):
I mean, yeah, like she's that unpolished side of
yourself that just doesn't givea fuck.
And I feel like I'm becomingmore and more confident as a
woman.
Like when I'm looking at myselfwhen I was younger, I wasn't
able to speak my mind as much.
I was always trying to be like apeople pleaser.
(19:17):
And it's still hard to be thatperson sometimes, but I'm trying
to be okay with making peopleuncomfortable.
And especially men, when youhave to like not be quiet when I
hear people talk about things.
You know, when you enter a roomand there's a conversation
going, there's a specific vibe.
(19:40):
I'm not afraid to be that personwho makes them uncomfortable
anymore.
I used to be quiet and be like,oh, I shouldn't say anything.
But now I'm like, what the fuck,you know?
SPEAKER_04 (19:50):
That's really good.
Can you think of an example ofthat?
Like a recent example of whenyou've done something like that?
SPEAKER_03 (20:00):
Yeah, definitely.
When I was younger, seeing theyoung girl that they thought
that they could shape.
When you're so young, there willalways be like wolves trying to
get you and always these oldermen in the business who
sexualize young women.
And they saw an opportunity totry to shape me into something
(20:24):
that I didn't want to be.
Whenever I see somethingsimilar, I know what I want and
I know what I don't want to do.
I'm in control over my ownsexuality and what I want to do
and who I want to be.
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
That's really good.
I know that it does take timeand experience to get that
strength and bravery, especiallywhen you're starting in an
industry where you really don'tknow what the rules are or
you're confused by them.
And then pretty soon yourealize, well, I guess I could
make my own rules for my owncareer.
So that must be a good feeling.
(21:01):
You know, you talk a lot aboutlove and relationships in your
song.
For instance, you have LonelyHearts Club, you have Nobody
Loves Me, all these differentsongs that speak about
relationships.
What have you learned about lovefrom your past experiences?
I
SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
had some really bad experiences.
For example, if you're seeingsomeone that doesn't...
prioritize you and someone whois very manipulative.
I really learned what I deservebecause there's been so many
times in my life when I was justliving by their rules and I
(21:44):
wasn't even thinking aboutmyself.
I was just trying to pleasethem.
So I think I learned how toprioritize my own needs and It
was important for me to findthat love for myself before I
found my person.
And right now I'm in a superhealthy relationship with the
(22:07):
love of my life.
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
Oh, that's so sweet.
That's so good to hear.
Yeah, and
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
he's been with me through a lot of tough times.
He's not going to leave.
I hope.
Well...
SPEAKER_04 (22:22):
Just to be general about it, because it's so
important to have really goodpeople in your life, not only to
support and encourage you and tobe honest with you, but also
especially during this pandemic,we had to stay with their core
set of people and we've had somuch more time to ourselves.
What is it about yourrelationship now that you really
(22:45):
appreciate that makes it healthyand loving?
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Honesty.
so important and to have like aconversation about everything
because we're two completelydifferent persons and we're
gonna we have different baggagewe have different experiences
but it's so important to justhave a conversation and being
able to actually speak your mindand having arguments and being
(23:10):
respectful towards each otherand we can meet somewhere in the
middle and yeah it's a veryloving and respectful we are who
we are and We're not trying tochange each other.
We're just trying to be twopeople who live side by side,
but like we're different.
(23:30):
That's what's beautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (23:32):
It sounds like you have a real respect for each
other.
And I could sense you have thefreedom to be who you truly are
without having to hide certainparts of you.
And I think that's the greatthing is if you're in a
relationship with someone whotruly accepts all the things
that you like about yourself andthe things that you don't like
(23:54):
about yourself, you know, thatreally is acceptance.
SPEAKER_03 (23:58):
That is acceptance because I've been with people
who tried to change me and whomade me feel that there was
parts of me that wasn't worth tolove, you know.
And when you go through thosekinds of experiences, you're
starting to questioning yourselfand you think that, okay, this
is what I deserve, but then it'snot fair.
(24:22):
You just gotta find someone wholoves all parts of you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:27):
Right.
Right.
And you know, you dropped a newsong called old insecurities and
we all have old insecuritiesthat we sometimes carry into our
adulthood, maybe something thatwas said when we were a child,
and it still bothers us.
Is there anything that you couldthink of an old insecurity that
(24:48):
you still carry from way backwhen?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
For me, there's a lot of different aspects of
that.
Like one thing for me is that II'm scared that people will
leave me or that I'm not goodenough or that I'm too much or
maybe I'm too little.
You know, there's so manydifferent things.
(25:11):
Do you have something?
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
Actually, I was really shy when I was growing
up.
Super shy.
Like I would walk home with myfriends and not say one word.
And yeah, yeah.
So, it was really hard for me tobreak out of that.
But I do find like my shynesswill come out in different ways,
(25:36):
where on the outside, it seemslike I'm very social, I'm very
comfortable, and people say, oh,wow, you can go and talk with
all these different people.
But on the inside, I can bereally nervous.
And I was wondering about thatwith you, because when people
first see you, They can get animpression of you.
(25:57):
But then your idea of yourselfis probably different from what
people see when they first meetyou.
What is the difference betweenwhat people see on the outside
versus how you see yourself onthe inside?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (26:13):
there's always so much.
You only see like the little topof the mountain with people.
It's so interesting.
I was a very shy child.
as well when people see me Idon't know actually that's hard
I don't know what people thinkabout me I'm trying to not think
about that too much but I don'tknow maybe they think that I'm
(26:33):
not as funny or loving orsomething I can look sometimes
maybe won't be the person who'ssmiling all the time or taking
up that much space in the roomso maybe if they speak to me
they will get a differentimpression that I'm more warm or
funnier.
SPEAKER_04 (26:56):
I hope.
I see you in your music videos.
And of course, you're all puttogether.
And you are natural beauty.
First of all, it doesn't looklike you really need much makeup
at all.
But when you go and have yourmusic videos, you seem very
confident.
You're talented.
And people don't see theinsecurities and the anxieties
(27:17):
that we might have on theinside.
SPEAKER_03 (27:20):
Yeah, that's true.
People probably think that I'm alot harder.
You know, I'm not a hard personat all.
SPEAKER_04 (27:29):
Well, you know, we talked about the pandemic and
we're slowly returning back tolife.
What is something that you'regoing to miss about the
pandemic?
SPEAKER_03 (27:38):
I think we all will appreciate just taking breaks
from things because it was soimportant for everybody to
reset.
and just being able to take thattime with your family.
Because I went to Sweden for acouple of months and I spent two
months with my mom and dad.
And that's something that Idon't know when I can do that
(28:01):
again.
So yeah, that's something that Iwill definitely take with me and
how important it is to just takethat time for yourself to
reflect and take a break.
I think it's important.
What about you?
SPEAKER_04 (28:19):
I agree with you.
I know that there were so manychanges that were happening in
2020, politically, personally,so many changes, right?
Musicians having to cancel toursand not knowing when they could
go back and do live shows.
But I do really appreciate justthe time at home because I'm not
(28:44):
that person that really stays athome, but just doing things like
playing cards, ping pong andcooking.
And these are things that aresimple pleasures that we miss
because the outside worlddistracts us with so many
different things that we losethe foundation of what really
(29:04):
can make us happy.
Those are things that I hope tocontinue even after life opens
up.
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
yeah i agree i'm so tired of staring into the phone
all the time i'm getting tiredof myself because i'm addicted
i'm so addicted you know
SPEAKER_04 (29:22):
well that's a good thing to bring up actually
because social media isaddictive and sometimes we can
rely on it but on the other handit could also be dangerous to
our mental health
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Oh yeah, you see all these perfect people online.
It's so dangerous.
It's so sad.
And like all these young peoplelooking at social media and
growing up with those standardsof beauty.
That's sad.
Because they're going to thinkthat's reality.
And it's not.
You're putting on all theseInstagram filters and it makes
(29:59):
you look a specific way.
And then they think that's howthey're supposed to look like.
It's sad.
SPEAKER_04 (30:08):
It is because it's not reality, but it's easy to
think that it is because we seeit so much every day and we
don't think about all of thefiltering that we do every time
we post something.
And we usually try to post ourbest selves, but there's so much
of our life that really isconfusing or messy or difficult
(30:35):
and that's the part that a lotof people try to hide so that's
why i'm super thankful for youthat you've spoken out on your
mental health and panic attacksand and anxieties because it's
so important for people to knowand to understand is there
anything else that you wouldlike to say about mental health
(30:57):
or about your career as anartist
SPEAKER_03 (31:02):
No, it's all a journey for anyone who's going
through something super hard intheir life.
It's important to just hear thatyou deserve and you will find
that light again and just holdon.
And hopefully they will findsome kind of peace in my music.
(31:28):
You know, I don't know what'sgoing to happen in my life.
It's a journey.
So for me, it's been sobeautiful and so healing to
create art and making somethingout of all that pain and all the
beautiful things too, of course.
SPEAKER_04 (31:47):
And you're right.
It is very healing to hearreally honest words because
those are the words that reallyconnect with your fans and have
them understand that they're notalone and also that there's
hope.
for recovery and so there's abetter life out there.
There is.
Thank you so much, Wynonna.
(32:08):
I really appreciate you speakingwith me today.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (32:10):
Thank you for doing this.
That's important.
You're doing something verybeautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (32:21):
Next up, we have Emmy Award winning composer and
multi-platinum selling producerRichard Wolff.
who speaks on how music,mindfulness, and meditation can
calm your anxiety and improveyour life with tips from his
book, In Tune, Music as a Bridgeto Mindfulness.
Having recently conducted aworkshop for Music Cares and the
Recording Academy, which hoststhe Grammy Awards, Richard Wolff
(32:45):
also teaches a class at USC onmusic and mindfulness.
Now let's hear expert RichardWolffy Wolff share his knowledge
and his solutions.
We talked to Winona Oak, and shehad panic attacks and anxiety.
And Winona mentioned thatmeditation was a way for her to
relax and lessen her anxiety.
(33:06):
And your book was actuallycalled A Manual for Achieving
Calm in a Tumultuous World.
I wanted to start with somethingthat you mentioned in the book,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
You called the four horsemen ofthe musical Apocalypse as
anxiety, depression, addiction,and suicide.
And I was wondering what hasbeen your personal experience
(33:29):
with these four horsemen?
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Certainly can attest to two of the horsemen, which
would be depression and anxiety.
And I'm no stranger to panic.
As a matter of fact, it was apanic attack that I had.
which had all the symptoms of aheart attack, which really
motivated me to finally get ahold of this whole problem of
extreme anxiety.
(33:52):
And the way that my therapistrecommended was he prescribed 10
minutes of meditation in themorning and 10 minutes of
meditation at night.
And I've been trying since I wasa teenager.
I started in Zen when I was 16,17 years old, but I wasn't very
good at it.
But now the therapist is saying,hey, you want to get healthy.
(34:14):
This is what I'm prescribing foryou.
And I decided I've got to learnas much as I can about this and
finally get to do it.
SPEAKER_04 (34:21):
I wanted to start with the basics because I myself
have tried meditation and Idon't think I'm doing it right.
What are the basics ofmeditation and what are the
benefits we can receive from it?
SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
The only thing you're not doing it right is
saying I'm not doing it right.
Because Meditation is a process.
So if you're practicing aninstrument and you make
mistakes, that's part ofpracticing an instrument.
It's part of how you learn, howyou grow.
So if you're meditating and yourmind wanders, that's okay.
That's expected.
(34:54):
The human mind is going to,every few seconds, jerk you
around.
That's just the way it is.
And you learn to accept that.
And accepting that and beingable to be okay with that That's
meditation.
That's the heart and soul rightthere.
So the next time you're tryingto meditate, you find the monkey
mind is chattering away.
(35:15):
Instead of saying, I'm not doingit right, say, well, I realize
that my mind is chattering away.
And that realization is part ofmeditation.
That means you are meditating.
SPEAKER_04 (35:28):
The whole concept of meditation is it to quiet our
minds and clear our minds andgive our minds a break.
Let's say when I go for a walkout in nature or in my
neighborhood, which has got alot of trees, I'm out there with
my dog and naturally my headclears.
And when it relaxes, all ofthese wonderful messages come
(35:49):
and all of these problems that Ihad seem to get solved by these
ideas that start to flowthrough.
Is that almost like meditation?
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
It's a wonderful thing.
Psychologically, we've beenproven to be very therapeutic to
be in nature because we arenature.
So we're uniting with ourselves.
We're reinforcing the best partof ourselves.
And when people ask, is that thepoint of meditation?
It's like asking, what's thepoint of music?
(36:19):
Music has a million differentgenres and then sub-genres,
right?
You can have hip-hop.
Within that, you have trap.
So meditation is the same thing.
It's a spectrum.
And you can get to so manydifferent states of mind that
most of them, if not all ofthem, are beneficial.
But they're different.
There's mindfulness.
There's concentration.
(36:40):
There's insight.
There's pure awareness.
And some people just want tomeditate to calm down.
So you mentioned that.
And that is a legitimatepractice.
result of meditation.
It does tend to calm people downif they do it consistently, but
it isn't the end-all.
It's a great big spectrum withmany genres and sub-genres.
SPEAKER_04 (37:01):
You combined music and mindfulness and meditation,
and this book is all about yourbrand of putting those all
together.
How would you explain the corefoundation of your book?
SPEAKER_00 (37:18):
Because I am a lifelong musician.
The way I had to approachlearning how to meditate and
actually make it an integralpart of my daily life was as a
musician.
That's the only way I know howto be.
You mentioned I'm not doing itright.
Well, that was my problem too.
If you just stop saying that,like when I play the piano or
(37:40):
guitar and I make a mistake, Idon't say I can't do this.
I'm a lousy guitar player.
I just do it again.
I have faith that with practice,I'll be able to get through the
piece okay.
And when I applied that faith,that dedication and trust and
confidence in practice to thepractice of meditation, then all
(38:02):
of a sudden it started to work.
And the deeper I got into it,the more correspondences,
bridges I call them, between thedisciplines of music and
meditation and music andmindfulness became more and more
apparent.
And it just strengthened andreinforced my willingness and
confidence to do the practice.
SPEAKER_04 (38:25):
I understand that you have a lot of music-based
exercises in the book thatpeople can practice and
incorporate in their own life.
After doing it for so long, howdid that positively affect your
anxiety and depression?
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
If I was alive right now and hadn't been practicing,
I would probably be in aninstitution.
I can't conceive of my lifewithout the practice of
meditation.
The panic is still there.
They don't go away.
But you're able to create spaceto give yourself room.
(39:01):
so that you're not enslaved byyour thoughts, by your anxious
feelings.
And it's just like playing aninstrument.
You know, you practice it.
You do it, and you start tocondition your body.
It's not just a mental thing,and it's not just an emotional
thing.
It's all of it.
It's a harmony of mind, body,feeling, all working together in
(39:23):
harmony to be able to see howyou're thinking and how your
mind works, understand that, andhave some critical distance
between whatever is happeningand your reactions to what is
happening.
So that makes it possible to notonly know when anxiety is going
(39:45):
to turn into panic or depressionis going to go to another level,
to see that ahead of time and tobe able to manage it, to be able
to put it in its place.
And that's a physical reality.
Your body almost tells you, calmdown.
Your body tells you, hey, you'realive in this moment.
(40:05):
Be aware and have some pleasurein your aliveness instead of
focusing on this negativefeeling and thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (40:13):
That's really interesting because things like
panic attack and anxiety canhappen at any time.
We can be triggered by differentthings.
I've had musicians tell me thatthey've had panic attacks on
stage.
And they've had to work withtheir mind to get out of that
and get back to performing.
I mean, are there any tips thatyou can explain when anxiety or
(40:36):
an attack starts to come up?
What do we do at that moment?
What are some things that we cando?
The
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
caveat is there is no substitute for training.
Just like playing an instrument,there's no substitute for
practice.
So if you're training yourself,to watch your breathing, for
instance.
Channel your attention into whatyour body is doing while you're
breathing, and you do that on afairly consistent level when
you're facing what you think isa threat.
(41:02):
You can just focus on yourbreathing.
And that will slow down yourphysiology.
That will slow down yoursympathetic nervous system,
which will calm your mindautomatically.
It releases the relaxationresponse.
So that's got to be thefoundation.
However, there are otherstrategies you can use.
I mean, if you frame youranxiety as not your enemy but as
(41:25):
your friend, why?
Because anxiety is there toprotect you.
It's there to tell you there'sdanger or there's a threat.
What's the anxiety when you'reperforming?
Well, you're going to make amistake.
You're going to look bad.
You're going to look like afool.
Well, the anxiety is there toprotect me.
And I appreciate that.
And I'm taking that energy of athreat, a fear of this threat or
(41:49):
failure.
I'm going to take that energyand just make it more fun to
perform.
Just make it more fun to do whatI have to do and give me the
strength to do what I have todo.
Take that anxious or panicpower.
and use that positively.
SPEAKER_04 (42:07):
So it's almost like turning it around into something
that might have been looked atnegative and then saying that
this is something that canempower me on stage, that I can
release this in maybe anentertaining way.
And then you also mentionedabout breathing because Wynonna
also said that she's learnedbreathing techniques to help
(42:28):
relax her.
And it's amazing at howbreathing, just a simple act of
breathing in deeply, can relaxyour mind and your body.
SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
That's absolutely right.
It's all interconnected.
If you're focusing on yourbreathing and you say, okay,
that's slowing it down, you sloweverything down.
Hey, slow down your roll.
You don't need to get so highstrung.
Loosen up a little bit.
And that's what it does.
It loosens you up.
You're not so tight.
You're able to be a little morecalm.
(42:59):
And that takes training.
And she's right.
It's so essential.
We don't think of breathing muchbecause we never pay attention
to it unless we're meditating orsinging or doing something that
requires breathing.
But when we do practice beingaware, having our mind and
breathing together, it makes abig difference.
SPEAKER_04 (43:19):
I've had quite a few musicians talk about the stress
that they have.
Oftentimes, they put thepressure on themselves that they
have for perfectionism.
way of looking at things, notwanting anything to go wrong,
and then putting that sameperspective on other people on
their team, on the crew.
That just gets to be somethingvery irritable because,
(43:41):
essentially, we're going to makemistakes no matter how much we
practice or rehearse.
What is your perspective on thiswhole idea of trying to be
perfect or trying to make it sothat nothing goes wrong?
You've been in the business forso long.
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
It's the catch-22 of being an artist.
It's because you want your artto be as good as it possibly can
be that you need to find thebalance.
As with many other things inlife, it's about the middle way.
It's about finding a balancebetween perfection and then
letting it go.
Finding that sweet spot whereyou say, okay, I've done the
(44:22):
best I can.
You know, I remember when Ifirst started to do remixes of
records, starting with membersof New Edition and Bell Good to
Go, I was in a situation I'dnever been in before in terms of
we need this record tomorrow.
And so you didn't have time.
You don't have time to beperfectionist.
(44:42):
So these deadlines are doing youa big favor because you've got
to get them out.
A lot of times if we don't havethe deadlines, then we could
just wallow in our desire to beperfectionist.
So it comes back to being ableto let go.
being able to do what Leonardoda Vinci said.
He said, I never finish a workof art.
I just abandon
SPEAKER_04 (45:05):
it.
Yeah.
I mean, deadlines are importantbecause as artists, you could
forever keep trying to perfectsomething, and it never seems to
end because there's so manyideas out there.
Now, you talked about thesemusic-based exercises for
mindfulness in your book.
Can you give me an example ofone of those?
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
Yes.
In terms of meditating,certainly a lot of us have
problems just sitting and theytell you, follow your breath.
So how do you follow yourbreath?
Some people say, you count yourbreaths from one to 10.
When I sat down to meditate, itwas hard for me to focus on
counting my, you know, thebreathing one to 10.
(45:46):
Well, how do musicians count?
You count beats and bars.
So you count one, two, three,four, two, two, three, four,
three.
So I started to count breathingas a musician would count
playing a piece of music.
And I call that rhythmiccounting.
And I find that over the lastfive, six years, teaching
(46:08):
different repertoires ofmeditation techniques, that's
one of the most populartechniques for musicians is
rhythmic counting.
Very simple.
Then we go a step further and weadd tones to the counting and
there's certain patterns oftones that we add.
So there are all these exerciseswith different intervals and
(46:30):
different ways of adding tonesand using rhythm and harmony and
melody to count the breath.
SPEAKER_04 (46:37):
Now the music part of it, do you incorporate the
music during the meditation?
How does that
SPEAKER_00 (46:43):
work?
What you do is you hear a tone,whatever comes in your mind, and
then as you inhale, and then youhear a related tone as you
exhale.
So you are hearing the tone.
And sometimes you're listeningto your breathing, just like you
listen to music.
And you are making the musicwith your breathing.
So yes, you are listening.
(47:04):
This is your own inner musicthat you are composing.
SPEAKER_04 (47:07):
Now, mindfulness is also a part of the whole
repertoire of meditation andmindfulness and music.
Can you tell me what is yourdefinition of mindfulness and an
example of mindfulness that youdo in your own life?
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Yeah, so when we talk about mindfulness, it
starts with concentration.
So you're able to focus or tunein to one direction.
That's how it starts.
And all the mindfulnesstrainings that I know, they all
start with concentrating.
And your object, theconcentration is usually a
breath.
Number two is sounds.
(47:43):
And so when you're tuning intoone direction, now what happens
is you're tuning out all theother stuff.
You're tuning out the turbulenceand the preoccupations and the
fixations.
And you're able to focus in anundistracted manner.
Now, of course, your mind willwander.
It's not perfect.
You're going to lose your focus.
(48:03):
It's okay because at some pointyou're going to bring it back.
So that's the concentration.
You are developing a skill nowto see things differently.
in a relatively undistractedway, which is very calming
because you're not going in amillion directions anymore.
Your monkey mind isn't pullingyou in every which way.
(48:24):
You're not going bonkers withthis stuff.
You're just focusing in onething, which is why, you know,
if you're just listening to apiece of music or you're
watching a television show,that's calming too because
you're not preoccupied with allthe turbulence in your mind.
What mindfulness does is ittakes that ability that you have
now developed to focus on onedirection and to move that
(48:49):
attentiveness to all the pointsin mindfulness, which means that
whatever comes across your fieldof experience, you're able to
see that and observe it in arelatively clear, calm way, just
as you were when you werefocusing in one direction.
Now you've developed the abilitynot to be so in the movie, but
(49:13):
to watch it.
Now, as you know, if you'rewatching a movie, you can always
realize if you're wrapped up init, hey, it's just a movie.
And you're able to control thesituation in terms of your own
reactions better than if youwere in the movie.
So in mindfulness, you're morelike you're watching the movie.
You're not entangled in thestory line.
(49:37):
Some people call it unentangledknowing because you're knowing
what's happening, but you'reknowing it in such a way that
it's not totally dominating yourway of thinking and your
feeling.
To go back to the musicalanalogy, when you practice or
rehearse with your band, that'slike developing mindfulness in
(49:58):
meditation.
Now, same thing with a musicianthat's practicing their
instrument or they're rehearsingwith the band.
Now you've got to go out andperform on the world stage.
Ah, that's mindfulness.
That's taking that ability thatyou develop rehearsing and using
that to perform on the worldstage.
(50:18):
You took that skill inmeditation, and now you apply it
to your life.
How do you apply it to yourlife?
You're in a situation in arelationship with somebody, and
there might be a difference ofopinion.
There might be a conflict.
Well, in your mind, you'refocusing on what they're saying.
Not on your reaction to whatthey're saying, but you're
(50:39):
focusing your attention on whatthey're saying and you're trying
to hear what they're saying andwhat they're not saying.
You're not responding to itright away.
As we say, you're watching themovie.
Now you're ready to respond in away that's a little more calm
and a little more clear becauseyou're watching it from a
distance.
When it's up here, it appears tobe a big problem.
(51:01):
When it's out here, it's muchsmaller and something you can
see it better.
You can see the whole picturebetter.
And that's a way to applymindfulness on a day-to-day
basis.
SPEAKER_04 (51:13):
When you look at a musician's lifestyle, which
you've seen all your life, whatdo you think are the conditions
that probably cause the highestlevel of stress?
SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
I think the deck is stacked against musicians in
terms of having mentalstability, you know.
People will tell you that theright hemisphere of your brain,
which is the creative part ofyour brain, is also the part
that's most susceptible tonegative thinking.
So if you're creative,especially in a musical way,
(51:44):
you're gonna be more vulnerable,more sensitive than most people.
And therefore they feel painmore acutely than most people.
And that's a problem.
So how do you deal with thepain?
Some people try to kill it withalcohol, kill it with drugs.
Meditation, mindfulness, youdon't try to kill it.
You don't try to push it away.
You try to live with it.
(52:04):
You try to coexist.
Coexistence is one of myfavorite words.
That's a way to get through thislife in a positive and
productive way is to learn howto coexist with the pain that
you feel.
When you're making music, it's ahigh for many different reasons.
And one of the biggest reasonsis you are going beyond
(52:27):
yourself.
Some people say everybody wantsthis connection beyond
themselves.
And when you're making music,you're going beyond yourself.
It's not about you anymore.
It's about the music and how themusic is connecting on a
transpersonal level.
And Alicia Keys said, when Imake music, it's like I'm
(52:48):
ascending somewhere beyond thestars.
It's a high.
Well, when you're not making themusic, Then what happens?
And you crash.
You've got to climb down off thehigh, climb down off the stage.
And now you've got to face life.
And you miss that high.
Where are you going to get thathigh from?
You don't have it anymore.
(53:08):
And your whole sense of purpose.
What is my purpose if I'm not onstage?
I have no purpose anymore.
And people look for drugs.
That'll make them high for awhile.
And others look at other things,belief in God.
Sometimes that'll make peoplehigh.
And also meditation.
That's not only a way to handleanxiety and develop mindfulness,
(53:30):
concentration, but it is a routeto having pleasures in peace and
just the joy of being alive.
Finding joy and some people saybliss.
And that is a thing.
SPEAKER_04 (53:46):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Wynonna Oak,
and our mental health expert,Richard Wolfie Wolf.
For more information on WynonnaOak, visit wynonnaoak.com, and
visit Wynonna on her socials, atWynonna Oak.
Stay tuned for a clip of WynonnaOak's single, Old Insecurities,
which will be playing soon.
(54:07):
For more information on RichardWolf and his book, In Tune,
Music as a Bridge toMindfulness, visit visit
richardwolff.net and followRichard on his socials at Wolff
in Tune.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_01 (54:27):
I'm tired of me I try to be Somebody else I'm not
okay I'm not okay And I can'tblame Somebody else So let them
come for me Old insecuritiesI've been scared of going under
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
Check
SPEAKER_04 (55:03):
Your Head podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(55:24):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Welcome to the Check Your Head podcast, the podcast
where notable musicians andexperts come and share their
stories and solutions for mentalhealth and wellness.
I'm your host, Mari Fong, amusic journalist and life coach
for musicians, and today I'mexcited to tell you about the
(00:20):
Check Your Head podcast'sYouTube channel.
What makes our channel specialis we drop raw, unedited
interviews we call nakedinterviews that include
unexpected, behind-the-scenesmoments and bloopers with the
musicians featured on the CheckYour Head podcast.
And coming soon is our expertseries on YouTube, where
interviews with our mentalhealth experts will provide an
(00:43):
educational series that youdon't want to miss.
To find us on YouTube, simplysearch for Check Your Head
podcast, and while you're there,please subscribe to our channel
so you'll be the first to knowwhen a new episode drops.
Now to our featured guests.
Today we have an up-and-comingsinger-songwriter who hails from
(01:04):
Sweden and first landed on theBillboard charts as a featured
artist on the Chainsmokers' hitsingle, Hope.
Our musical guest today isWynonna Oak, Atlantic Records'
rising star who dropped her SheEP in 2020 and was also featured
on The Late Show with StephenColbert.
Winona Oak recently dropped anew single entitled Old
(01:26):
Insecurities, which we'll beplaying a clip of later in our
episode.
Winona often shares open, honestlyrics about her anxiety and her
mental health in her music, andis just as open and honest with
her story today on living withanxiety and panic attacks, along
with her solutions.
Next, our mental health expertis an Emmy Award-winning
(01:48):
composer, amulti-platinum-selling producer,
a USC professor and author ofthe book, In Tune, Music as a
Bridge to Mindfulness.
Richard Wolfe, also known asWolfie, is our expert today, who
has worked on projects withmusical icons such as Prince,
Freddie Mercury of Queen, andMadonna, as well as working on
(02:11):
countless TV and filmsoundtracks.
Today, Richard Wolfe willexplain how music, Mindfulness
and meditation can be a naturaland effective way to reduce
anxiety and bring calm to yourlife.
But first, let's hear artistWynonna Oak share her story.
(02:31):
Congratulations on the She EP.
I really love the fact that it'sbased on being strong as a woman
and also quite a few othermessages in your lyrics and
within your songs.
And you do speak out on mentalhealth, which I really
appreciate, both in yourinterviews and your lyrics.
But I was wondering, can youtell me when or at what age you
(02:54):
first realized the importance ofmental health?
SPEAKER_03 (02:58):
For me, I've always been a very sensitive person.
Even as a kid, I washypersensitive.
I think I had my first panicattack when I was 12.
So I realized...
pretty early how fragile we areas human beings and how
important it is to find balanceand find peace within yourself.
(03:24):
I still haven't found thatmissing piece really.
But I've been trying my best andI've come so far.
SPEAKER_04 (03:33):
At 12 years old, a lot of musicians that come
across mood disorders like panicattacks It usually does start in
the early teens, even inelementary school.
Can you describe what it waslike when you first experienced
a panic attack at 12 years old?
SPEAKER_03 (03:51):
For me, I was super scared.
I thought I was about to die.
I thought I was going to lose mymind.
So I had no idea and I was soscared.
And then it happened again.
And I told my parents about itand they were like, okay, we
think you're having a panicattack.
You're not dying.
You know, it's normal.
(04:11):
You will get through this.
And then it was a couple ofyears when it was better.
And then they came back as Iwent through like other stuff in
my life.
The worst time for my panicattacks and my anxiety was like
a couple of years ago.
And I woke up every day feelingexcited.
Like I basically woke up with apanic attack and I couldn't even
(04:32):
go to a grocery store.
I couldn't do anything.
SPEAKER_04 (04:35):
So you were kind of agoraphobic too because you were
staying at home and you weren'tgoing out as much because of the
panic attacks.
SPEAKER_03 (04:47):
Yeah, for me, it was a time in my life when I can't
even go to the grocery storebecause I feel like ground
beneath my feet is shaking.
It felt like I was on a ferryconstantly, like on a boat.
And that's pretty scary.
It gets so real when you don'treally see a difference between
reality and what's in your mind.
(05:09):
And you think you're losing yourmind.
It's so scary.
The body and mind is soconnected.
SPEAKER_04 (05:16):
Yeah, it is true.
It is scary and confusing whenyou're going through these
behaviors and thoughts that youdon't even understand.
You might even feel like, gosh,this is not even my personality.
Why am I thinking thesethoughts?
But they come, right?
What were some of the thoughtsthat you were thinking that
didn't even make sense to you?
(05:36):
Oh, so
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
many thoughts.
You know, the worst part was Ifelt like Is there an earthquake
going on?
Or is the ground shaking beneathmy feet?
Why do I feel like the ground isconstantly moving?
And just not being able to trustyourself.
Like, why can I not breathe?
Is there something wrong withme?
(05:58):
Like, constantly having thatfear of, oh, maybe this time
it's something serious.
Oh, this time could bedifferent.
What if I'm actually having aheart attack this time?
Because I feel that pain in mychest or...
I feel like you're just losingtrust in yourself.
SPEAKER_04 (06:16):
And it would come out of nowhere.
Or was there certain triggersthat would, you know, that would
spiral you into this panicattack?
SPEAKER_03 (06:24):
Some things for me are triggering because I have
specific trauma that can betriggering for me, but it could
also just come out of the blue.
That's how your brain works.
Your brain is smart and isconstantly finding new things to
like, Oh, she's having a goodtime.
Let's just make her suffocate onthis beautiful dinner.
(06:46):
Put some clouds over her head.
No, but I don't know.
It's just a lot of differentthings, but it could basically
just come out of the blue.
Also, I noticed that there canbe a big difference in my mental
health that's connected to mycycle, to my menstrual cycle.
So, you know, I'm so sensitivewhen I have PMS or during my
(07:09):
period, I get super sensitive,like even more fragile because
all of the hormones are alreadymessing with your head.
SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Yeah, that was actually something that I'm
really sensitive to.
And I've fallen into depressionand anxiety because of my
hormonal shifts.
And it took me a while torealize that.
But it's amazing how much...
hormones can affect you ingeneral but it's tough because
(07:38):
it's something that you reallycan't control so much but it
does you know happen and thenall of a sudden you're like my
gosh why am I reacting sostrongly to this one comment
SPEAKER_03 (07:51):
yeah and it took me so long to realize because I
started to track my worstanxiety days and I saw oh
there's a pattern here
SPEAKER_04 (08:01):
you know
SPEAKER_03 (08:01):
And I still, whenever I'm having PMS or
during my period or the daysafter, I get so sensitive and I
feel I have shortness of breathand that triggers things.
Then I feel, damn, am I fallingback into this depression hole
again or what is going on?
And then I'm like, okay, let'sjust relax and see.
And then I feel better, youknow?
SPEAKER_04 (08:21):
Right.
You start to reassure yourselfinstead of
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
going.
UNKNOWN (08:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:28):
down the bad road of thoughts.
But there are PMS, premenstrualsymptoms.
People are familiar with it.
But there are different times inlife where there's big hormonal
shifts.
You know, for men and women,there's a puberty.
That's a big one.
There's also menopause thatcomes later in life.
(08:51):
And then after you have a baby,There's the post-baby blues that
could happen.
So it's this sort ofever-changing estrogen,
progesterone, testosterone, allof these hormones that kind of
work together, but sometimes canwork against you.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
they can.
We don't really talk about thatenough because there's not
enough research on women'shealth.
So it's hard because whenthere's not enough research, we
won't ever find that help.
we need because there's notreally a cure for it so it's
yeah it's a bad spiral but i'mhoping to see more science
(09:32):
around it and because there's somuch that we can do for women's
health
SPEAKER_04 (09:38):
yeah i agree and i feel like if there's a
correlation between emotions andyour hormones for men and women
that it really should be lookedat because there can be things
done as long as science supportsit and focuses on it.
You know, one thing youmentioned that I thought was
really interesting is that youwere tracking your symptoms and
(10:02):
tracking how you feel throughoutyour day or throughout the
month.
What is it that you do there?
SPEAKER_03 (10:10):
Yeah, I just started seeing patterns in my cycle.
I started to see that it'ssomething with the hormones
that's totally changing thatmakes me feel like I can't
breathe.
And if I know that pre-hand,okay, these days I'm going to
have trouble breathing, then Idon't have to get panic attacks
or get as scared as I used to.
(10:32):
And if I know that beforehand, Ican learn to be like, okay,
these days maybe I shouldn'tplan something big.
SPEAKER_04 (10:41):
Well, that's actually really smart.
It's like you're journaling howyou feel throughout the month
according to your cycle.
And to see a trend, then atleast you can prepare yourself,
right?
You know, one thing you said wasa few years ago, you had more
(11:01):
severe anxiety and panicattacks.
Was there anyone there that yourelied on to help you?
Who was that and what was goingon there?
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
My boyfriend was there for me the entire time.
He was so supportive and hewasn't judging me or anything.
He was just there for me and myfamily and my friends.
I would call my dad as soon as Ihad a really bad anxiety attack.
And my mom all the time, just tohear her voice would calm me
(11:36):
down a lot.
So I had a really...
great support from my family andfriends and people around me.
But my boyfriend had to take alot of, you know, maybe I should
go to the hospital because I'mhaving a heart attack, you know.
And he's like, well, maybe weshould just chill a little bit.
(11:58):
And I was like, no, I'm prettysure.
And then you started Googlingand that's not something you
should do.
But yeah, I'm definitely havinga heart attack.
And I didn't, of course.
Yeah, I'm also hypochondriac, soit's kind of funny, but it's
hard because you get so limitedwhen you're not even able to
(12:18):
socialize with people because Icouldn't barely move from the
couch to the kitchen withoutfeeling like a fairy underneath
my feet.
And I was constantly havingshortness of breath and getting
so dusty and had to lay down andIf
SPEAKER_04 (12:35):
you go
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
into
SPEAKER_04 (12:36):
a
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
panic attack, how long does it normally last?
During that time, it could go onfor hours and I could have them
every day.
I could wake up with a panicattack and it could go on for
hours.
But now it can be, honestly, itcan be a short one that I'm able
to control from my breathtechnique and trying to calm
(12:58):
myself down and break it beforeit hits hard.
So that could be maybe 20minutes or it could be something
that I can't control and I can'twake up with a panic attack and
that feeling can go on for maybetwo hours
SPEAKER_04 (13:12):
oh wow that's a long
SPEAKER_03 (13:13):
time yeah
SPEAKER_04 (13:15):
I haven't had a panic attack but I know a lot of
musicians do we've had quite afew musicians that come on the
podcast talking about them andsome of them even say that they
get disconnected from realitythey could see themselves on
stage as a separate person allkinds of different things that
happen and But it really doessound terrifying.
(13:38):
And throughout the years, I'msure you've thought of ways on
your own and also asked aprofessional, what do I do in
these situations?
What have you learned that hasworked best for you to help
control the anxiety and thepanic attacks?
SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
One thing that helped me is that I saw the
pattern in my cycle and that Ican prepare myself for the days
when I know that I'm going tofeel low.
And I know people hate to hearthis, but actually to do yoga
and meditation, I know that'sone of the things you don't want
to hear when you're goingthrough something super hard.
(14:14):
It's like, oh, go for a run.
You know, that's not somethingyou want to hear.
But actually getting thoseendorphins and the serotonin in
your brain to kick off a littlebit it's going to help you a lot
so yoga and meditation hashelped me a lot and then you
learn to breathe better and takedeep breaths and just doing
(14:38):
those kinds of breath techniquesand yoga it helped me and also
having a good therapist and keeptelling myself that
SPEAKER_04 (14:49):
well it is important to have a good therapist and
you're talking about breathingtechniques which sounds really
simple but I've heard so muchabout how your breathing can
really help slow down everythingin your body and that's what you
need to do when you're panickingis that where you learned how to
do these breathing techniqueswith a therapist
SPEAKER_03 (15:11):
no that was through meditation and yoga So I learned
that while doing yoga, there's alot of breath techniques.
Yoga is basically justreconnecting to your mind and to
your soul and finding thatconnection that gets
disconnected when you're havinga panic attack or when you're
(15:32):
experiencing anxiety and weexperience traumas, you get
disconnected from yourself.
So you just find that connectionand that love for yourself.
And yoga won't help Everyone whotries it, for me, it helps.
SPEAKER_04 (15:49):
I think it's important to share what really
works for you because sometimesnatural things and ways to slow
down our physical body and ourmental, you know, our thoughts
is going to help combat that.
Now, when you talked abouttherapy, what have you found
most beneficial with therapy?
SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
I still need to go back properly to therapy,
actually.
I'm still putting that on myto-do list in the drawer.
But actually, I want to try, Idon't know if you heard about
EMDR therapy.
So I want to try that.
(16:30):
Have you tried that?
I
SPEAKER_04 (16:31):
have not tried that, but I've heard that it works for
some people.
I have a good friend of mine whodoes that EMDR and has had good
success with it.
Sometimes therapies that don'tsound like it would work, but
you got to try anything andeverything when you're in the
middle of something that can bereally terrifying because you
(16:54):
never know which one is reallygoing to click for you.
SPEAKER_03 (16:56):
Yeah.
I tried several people, though,and I never really think that I
found the right person.
And that can also be hardbecause you keep telling them
things and you open up and it'shard.
It's so important to find a goodtherapist.
SPEAKER_04 (17:13):
Yeah, it takes time to find one that has a
personality that you feel youcould trust and also somebody
that you feel is going to giveyou the skills or even the
listening ability to give youthe right advice for your
condition.
But you have a song, it's calledThe Light.
(17:34):
And that one I've read, it'sabout being on the bottom and
fighting your way back.
Can you tell me about a timethat represents that thought?
SPEAKER_03 (17:44):
It's been several times in my life when I felt I
almost wanted to give up becauseI couldn't see the light.
I was just working against meand even me, I was working
against myself.
And when you're feeling sotrapped in those dark thoughts
with all your demons, it's sohard to find the way back.
(18:07):
But I wrote that song as areminder that there is a way
back and I'm...
so much better place than I was.
You know, right now I still havethings that I need to work on
and that I need to deal with andthat I haven't dealt with yet.
But there's always that in life.
(18:28):
You're always finding a way tobecome your full self and your
full potential.
But my mental health is in acompletely different place right
now.
SPEAKER_04 (18:39):
Well, you wrote the song, She.
which is an empowering songabout being a woman and speaking
your mind.
How would you explain that aspart of the chapter that you're
in right now with your life?
SPEAKER_03 (18:56):
I mean, yeah, like she's that unpolished side of
yourself that just doesn't givea fuck.
And I feel like I'm becomingmore and more confident as a
woman.
Like when I'm looking at myselfwhen I was younger, I wasn't
able to speak my mind as much.
I was always trying to be like apeople pleaser.
(19:17):
And it's still hard to be thatperson sometimes, but I'm trying
to be okay with making peopleuncomfortable.
And especially men, when youhave to like not be quiet when I
hear people talk about things.
You know, when you enter a roomand there's a conversation
going, there's a specific vibe.
(19:40):
I'm not afraid to be that personwho makes them uncomfortable
anymore.
I used to be quiet and be like,oh, I shouldn't say anything.
But now I'm like, what the fuck,you know?
SPEAKER_04 (19:50):
That's really good.
Can you think of an example ofthat?
Like a recent example of whenyou've done something like that?
SPEAKER_03 (20:00):
Yeah, definitely.
When I was younger, seeing theyoung girl that they thought
that they could shape.
When you're so young, there willalways be like wolves trying to
get you and always these oldermen in the business who
sexualize young women.
And they saw an opportunity totry to shape me into something
(20:24):
that I didn't want to be.
Whenever I see somethingsimilar, I know what I want and
I know what I don't want to do.
I'm in control over my ownsexuality and what I want to do
and who I want to be.
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
That's really good.
I know that it does take timeand experience to get that
strength and bravery, especiallywhen you're starting in an
industry where you really don'tknow what the rules are or
you're confused by them.
And then pretty soon yourealize, well, I guess I could
make my own rules for my owncareer.
So that must be a good feeling.
(21:01):
You know, you talk a lot aboutlove and relationships in your
song.
For instance, you have LonelyHearts Club, you have Nobody
Loves Me, all these differentsongs that speak about
relationships.
What have you learned about lovefrom your past experiences?
I
SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
had some really bad experiences.
For example, if you're seeingsomeone that doesn't...
prioritize you and someone whois very manipulative.
I really learned what I deservebecause there's been so many
times in my life when I was justliving by their rules and I
(21:44):
wasn't even thinking aboutmyself.
I was just trying to pleasethem.
So I think I learned how toprioritize my own needs and It
was important for me to findthat love for myself before I
found my person.
And right now I'm in a superhealthy relationship with the
(22:07):
love of my life.
SPEAKER_04 (22:09):
Oh, that's so sweet.
That's so good to hear.
Yeah, and
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
he's been with me through a lot of tough times.
He's not going to leave.
I hope.
Well...
SPEAKER_04 (22:22):
Just to be general about it, because it's so
important to have really goodpeople in your life, not only to
support and encourage you and tobe honest with you, but also
especially during this pandemic,we had to stay with their core
set of people and we've had somuch more time to ourselves.
What is it about yourrelationship now that you really
(22:45):
appreciate that makes it healthyand loving?
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Honesty.
so important and to have like aconversation about everything
because we're two completelydifferent persons and we're
gonna we have different baggagewe have different experiences
but it's so important to justhave a conversation and being
able to actually speak your mindand having arguments and being
(23:10):
respectful towards each otherand we can meet somewhere in the
middle and yeah it's a veryloving and respectful we are who
we are and We're not trying tochange each other.
We're just trying to be twopeople who live side by side,
but like we're different.
(23:30):
That's what's beautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (23:32):
It sounds like you have a real respect for each
other.
And I could sense you have thefreedom to be who you truly are
without having to hide certainparts of you.
And I think that's the greatthing is if you're in a
relationship with someone whotruly accepts all the things
that you like about yourself andthe things that you don't like
(23:54):
about yourself, you know, thatreally is acceptance.
SPEAKER_03 (23:58):
That is acceptance because I've been with people
who tried to change me and whomade me feel that there was
parts of me that wasn't worth tolove, you know.
And when you go through thosekinds of experiences, you're
starting to questioning yourselfand you think that, okay, this
is what I deserve, but then it'snot fair.
(24:22):
You just gotta find someone wholoves all parts of you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:27):
Right.
Right.
And you know, you dropped a newsong called old insecurities and
we all have old insecuritiesthat we sometimes carry into our
adulthood, maybe something thatwas said when we were a child,
and it still bothers us.
Is there anything that you couldthink of an old insecurity that
(24:48):
you still carry from way backwhen?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
For me, there's a lot of different aspects of
that.
Like one thing for me is that II'm scared that people will
leave me or that I'm not goodenough or that I'm too much or
maybe I'm too little.
You know, there's so manydifferent things.
(25:11):
Do you have something?
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
Actually, I was really shy when I was growing
up.
Super shy.
Like I would walk home with myfriends and not say one word.
And yeah, yeah.
So, it was really hard for me tobreak out of that.
But I do find like my shynesswill come out in different ways,
(25:36):
where on the outside, it seemslike I'm very social, I'm very
comfortable, and people say, oh,wow, you can go and talk with
all these different people.
But on the inside, I can bereally nervous.
And I was wondering about thatwith you, because when people
first see you, They can get animpression of you.
(25:57):
But then your idea of yourselfis probably different from what
people see when they first meetyou.
What is the difference betweenwhat people see on the outside
versus how you see yourself onthe inside?
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (26:13):
there's always so much.
You only see like the little topof the mountain with people.
It's so interesting.
I was a very shy child.
as well when people see me Idon't know actually that's hard
I don't know what people thinkabout me I'm trying to not think
about that too much but I don'tknow maybe they think that I'm
(26:33):
not as funny or loving orsomething I can look sometimes
maybe won't be the person who'ssmiling all the time or taking
up that much space in the roomso maybe if they speak to me
they will get a differentimpression that I'm more warm or
funnier.
SPEAKER_04 (26:56):
I hope.
I see you in your music videos.
And of course, you're all puttogether.
And you are natural beauty.
First of all, it doesn't looklike you really need much makeup
at all.
But when you go and have yourmusic videos, you seem very
confident.
You're talented.
And people don't see theinsecurities and the anxieties
(27:17):
that we might have on theinside.
SPEAKER_03 (27:20):
Yeah, that's true.
People probably think that I'm alot harder.
You know, I'm not a hard personat all.
SPEAKER_04 (27:29):
Well, you know, we talked about the pandemic and
we're slowly returning back tolife.
What is something that you'regoing to miss about the
pandemic?
SPEAKER_03 (27:38):
I think we all will appreciate just taking breaks
from things because it was soimportant for everybody to
reset.
and just being able to take thattime with your family.
Because I went to Sweden for acouple of months and I spent two
months with my mom and dad.
And that's something that Idon't know when I can do that
(28:01):
again.
So yeah, that's something that Iwill definitely take with me and
how important it is to just takethat time for yourself to
reflect and take a break.
I think it's important.
What about you?
SPEAKER_04 (28:19):
I agree with you.
I know that there were so manychanges that were happening in
2020, politically, personally,so many changes, right?
Musicians having to cancel toursand not knowing when they could
go back and do live shows.
But I do really appreciate justthe time at home because I'm not
(28:44):
that person that really stays athome, but just doing things like
playing cards, ping pong andcooking.
And these are things that aresimple pleasures that we miss
because the outside worlddistracts us with so many
different things that we losethe foundation of what really
(29:04):
can make us happy.
Those are things that I hope tocontinue even after life opens
up.
SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
yeah i agree i'm so tired of staring into the phone
all the time i'm getting tiredof myself because i'm addicted
i'm so addicted you know
SPEAKER_04 (29:22):
well that's a good thing to bring up actually
because social media isaddictive and sometimes we can
rely on it but on the other handit could also be dangerous to
our mental health
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Oh yeah, you see all these perfect people online.
It's so dangerous.
It's so sad.
And like all these young peoplelooking at social media and
growing up with those standardsof beauty.
That's sad.
Because they're going to thinkthat's reality.
And it's not.
You're putting on all theseInstagram filters and it makes
(29:59):
you look a specific way.
And then they think that's howthey're supposed to look like.
It's sad.
SPEAKER_04 (30:08):
It is because it's not reality, but it's easy to
think that it is because we seeit so much every day and we
don't think about all of thefiltering that we do every time
we post something.
And we usually try to post ourbest selves, but there's so much
of our life that really isconfusing or messy or difficult
(30:35):
and that's the part that a lotof people try to hide so that's
why i'm super thankful for youthat you've spoken out on your
mental health and panic attacksand and anxieties because it's
so important for people to knowand to understand is there
anything else that you wouldlike to say about mental health
(30:57):
or about your career as anartist
SPEAKER_03 (31:02):
No, it's all a journey for anyone who's going
through something super hard intheir life.
It's important to just hear thatyou deserve and you will find
that light again and just holdon.
And hopefully they will findsome kind of peace in my music.
(31:28):
You know, I don't know what'sgoing to happen in my life.
It's a journey.
So for me, it's been sobeautiful and so healing to
create art and making somethingout of all that pain and all the
beautiful things too, of course.
SPEAKER_04 (31:47):
And you're right.
It is very healing to hearreally honest words because
those are the words that reallyconnect with your fans and have
them understand that they're notalone and also that there's
hope.
for recovery and so there's abetter life out there.
There is.
Thank you so much, Wynonna.
(32:08):
I really appreciate you speakingwith me today.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (32:10):
Thank you for doing this.
That's important.
You're doing something verybeautiful.
SPEAKER_04 (32:21):
Next up, we have Emmy Award winning composer and
multi-platinum selling producerRichard Wolff.
who speaks on how music,mindfulness, and meditation can
calm your anxiety and improveyour life with tips from his
book, In Tune, Music as a Bridgeto Mindfulness.
Having recently conducted aworkshop for Music Cares and the
Recording Academy, which hoststhe Grammy Awards, Richard Wolff
(32:45):
also teaches a class at USC onmusic and mindfulness.
Now let's hear expert RichardWolffy Wolff share his knowledge
and his solutions.
We talked to Winona Oak, and shehad panic attacks and anxiety.
And Winona mentioned thatmeditation was a way for her to
relax and lessen her anxiety.
(33:06):
And your book was actuallycalled A Manual for Achieving
Calm in a Tumultuous World.
I wanted to start with somethingthat you mentioned in the book,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
You called the four horsemen ofthe musical Apocalypse as
anxiety, depression, addiction,and suicide.
And I was wondering what hasbeen your personal experience
(33:29):
with these four horsemen?
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Certainly can attest to two of the horsemen, which
would be depression and anxiety.
And I'm no stranger to panic.
As a matter of fact, it was apanic attack that I had.
which had all the symptoms of aheart attack, which really
motivated me to finally get ahold of this whole problem of
extreme anxiety.
(33:52):
And the way that my therapistrecommended was he prescribed 10
minutes of meditation in themorning and 10 minutes of
meditation at night.
And I've been trying since I wasa teenager.
I started in Zen when I was 16,17 years old, but I wasn't very
good at it.
But now the therapist is saying,hey, you want to get healthy.
(34:14):
This is what I'm prescribing foryou.
And I decided I've got to learnas much as I can about this and
finally get to do it.
SPEAKER_04 (34:21):
I wanted to start with the basics because I myself
have tried meditation and Idon't think I'm doing it right.
What are the basics ofmeditation and what are the
benefits we can receive from it?
SPEAKER_00 (34:34):
The only thing you're not doing it right is
saying I'm not doing it right.
Because Meditation is a process.
So if you're practicing aninstrument and you make
mistakes, that's part ofpracticing an instrument.
It's part of how you learn, howyou grow.
So if you're meditating and yourmind wanders, that's okay.
That's expected.
(34:54):
The human mind is going to,every few seconds, jerk you
around.
That's just the way it is.
And you learn to accept that.
And accepting that and beingable to be okay with that That's
meditation.
That's the heart and soul rightthere.
So the next time you're tryingto meditate, you find the monkey
mind is chattering away.
(35:15):
Instead of saying, I'm not doingit right, say, well, I realize
that my mind is chattering away.
And that realization is part ofmeditation.
That means you are meditating.
SPEAKER_04 (35:28):
The whole concept of meditation is it to quiet our
minds and clear our minds andgive our minds a break.
Let's say when I go for a walkout in nature or in my
neighborhood, which has got alot of trees, I'm out there with
my dog and naturally my headclears.
And when it relaxes, all ofthese wonderful messages come
(35:49):
and all of these problems that Ihad seem to get solved by these
ideas that start to flowthrough.
Is that almost like meditation?
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
It's a wonderful thing.
Psychologically, we've beenproven to be very therapeutic to
be in nature because we arenature.
So we're uniting with ourselves.
We're reinforcing the best partof ourselves.
And when people ask, is that thepoint of meditation?
It's like asking, what's thepoint of music?
(36:19):
Music has a million differentgenres and then sub-genres,
right?
You can have hip-hop.
Within that, you have trap.
So meditation is the same thing.
It's a spectrum.
And you can get to so manydifferent states of mind that
most of them, if not all ofthem, are beneficial.
But they're different.
There's mindfulness.
There's concentration.
(36:40):
There's insight.
There's pure awareness.
And some people just want tomeditate to calm down.
So you mentioned that.
And that is a legitimatepractice.
result of meditation.
It does tend to calm people downif they do it consistently, but
it isn't the end-all.
It's a great big spectrum withmany genres and sub-genres.
SPEAKER_04 (37:01):
You combined music and mindfulness and meditation,
and this book is all about yourbrand of putting those all
together.
How would you explain the corefoundation of your book?
SPEAKER_00 (37:18):
Because I am a lifelong musician.
The way I had to approachlearning how to meditate and
actually make it an integralpart of my daily life was as a
musician.
That's the only way I know howto be.
You mentioned I'm not doing itright.
Well, that was my problem too.
If you just stop saying that,like when I play the piano or
(37:40):
guitar and I make a mistake, Idon't say I can't do this.
I'm a lousy guitar player.
I just do it again.
I have faith that with practice,I'll be able to get through the
piece okay.
And when I applied that faith,that dedication and trust and
confidence in practice to thepractice of meditation, then all
(38:02):
of a sudden it started to work.
And the deeper I got into it,the more correspondences,
bridges I call them, between thedisciplines of music and
meditation and music andmindfulness became more and more
apparent.
And it just strengthened andreinforced my willingness and
confidence to do the practice.
SPEAKER_04 (38:25):
I understand that you have a lot of music-based
exercises in the book thatpeople can practice and
incorporate in their own life.
After doing it for so long, howdid that positively affect your
anxiety and depression?
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
If I was alive right now and hadn't been practicing,
I would probably be in aninstitution.
I can't conceive of my lifewithout the practice of
meditation.
The panic is still there.
They don't go away.
But you're able to create spaceto give yourself room.
(39:01):
so that you're not enslaved byyour thoughts, by your anxious
feelings.
And it's just like playing aninstrument.
You know, you practice it.
You do it, and you start tocondition your body.
It's not just a mental thing,and it's not just an emotional
thing.
It's all of it.
It's a harmony of mind, body,feeling, all working together in
(39:23):
harmony to be able to see howyou're thinking and how your
mind works, understand that, andhave some critical distance
between whatever is happeningand your reactions to what is
happening.
So that makes it possible to notonly know when anxiety is going
(39:45):
to turn into panic or depressionis going to go to another level,
to see that ahead of time and tobe able to manage it, to be able
to put it in its place.
And that's a physical reality.
Your body almost tells you, calmdown.
Your body tells you, hey, you'realive in this moment.
(40:05):
Be aware and have some pleasurein your aliveness instead of
focusing on this negativefeeling and thinking.
SPEAKER_04 (40:13):
That's really interesting because things like
panic attack and anxiety canhappen at any time.
We can be triggered by differentthings.
I've had musicians tell me thatthey've had panic attacks on
stage.
And they've had to work withtheir mind to get out of that
and get back to performing.
I mean, are there any tips thatyou can explain when anxiety or
(40:36):
an attack starts to come up?
What do we do at that moment?
What are some things that we cando?
The
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
caveat is there is no substitute for training.
Just like playing an instrument,there's no substitute for
practice.
So if you're training yourself,to watch your breathing, for
instance.
Channel your attention into whatyour body is doing while you're
breathing, and you do that on afairly consistent level when
you're facing what you think isa threat.
(41:02):
You can just focus on yourbreathing.
And that will slow down yourphysiology.
That will slow down yoursympathetic nervous system,
which will calm your mindautomatically.
It releases the relaxationresponse.
So that's got to be thefoundation.
However, there are otherstrategies you can use.
I mean, if you frame youranxiety as not your enemy but as
(41:25):
your friend, why?
Because anxiety is there toprotect you.
It's there to tell you there'sdanger or there's a threat.
What's the anxiety when you'reperforming?
Well, you're going to make amistake.
You're going to look bad.
You're going to look like afool.
Well, the anxiety is there toprotect me.
And I appreciate that.
And I'm taking that energy of athreat, a fear of this threat or
(41:49):
failure.
I'm going to take that energyand just make it more fun to
perform.
Just make it more fun to do whatI have to do and give me the
strength to do what I have todo.
Take that anxious or panicpower.
and use that positively.
SPEAKER_04 (42:07):
So it's almost like turning it around into something
that might have been looked atnegative and then saying that
this is something that canempower me on stage, that I can
release this in maybe anentertaining way.
And then you also mentionedabout breathing because Wynonna
also said that she's learnedbreathing techniques to help
(42:28):
relax her.
And it's amazing at howbreathing, just a simple act of
breathing in deeply, can relaxyour mind and your body.
SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
That's absolutely right.
It's all interconnected.
If you're focusing on yourbreathing and you say, okay,
that's slowing it down, you sloweverything down.
Hey, slow down your roll.
You don't need to get so highstrung.
Loosen up a little bit.
And that's what it does.
It loosens you up.
You're not so tight.
You're able to be a little morecalm.
(42:59):
And that takes training.
And she's right.
It's so essential.
We don't think of breathing muchbecause we never pay attention
to it unless we're meditating orsinging or doing something that
requires breathing.
But when we do practice beingaware, having our mind and
breathing together, it makes abig difference.
SPEAKER_04 (43:19):
I've had quite a few musicians talk about the stress
that they have.
Oftentimes, they put thepressure on themselves that they
have for perfectionism.
way of looking at things, notwanting anything to go wrong,
and then putting that sameperspective on other people on
their team, on the crew.
That just gets to be somethingvery irritable because,
(43:41):
essentially, we're going to makemistakes no matter how much we
practice or rehearse.
What is your perspective on thiswhole idea of trying to be
perfect or trying to make it sothat nothing goes wrong?
You've been in the business forso long.
SPEAKER_00 (43:59):
It's the catch-22 of being an artist.
It's because you want your artto be as good as it possibly can
be that you need to find thebalance.
As with many other things inlife, it's about the middle way.
It's about finding a balancebetween perfection and then
letting it go.
Finding that sweet spot whereyou say, okay, I've done the
(44:22):
best I can.
You know, I remember when Ifirst started to do remixes of
records, starting with membersof New Edition and Bell Good to
Go, I was in a situation I'dnever been in before in terms of
we need this record tomorrow.
And so you didn't have time.
You don't have time to beperfectionist.
(44:42):
So these deadlines are doing youa big favor because you've got
to get them out.
A lot of times if we don't havethe deadlines, then we could
just wallow in our desire to beperfectionist.
So it comes back to being ableto let go.
being able to do what Leonardoda Vinci said.
He said, I never finish a workof art.
I just abandon
SPEAKER_04 (45:05):
it.
Yeah.
I mean, deadlines are importantbecause as artists, you could
forever keep trying to perfectsomething, and it never seems to
end because there's so manyideas out there.
Now, you talked about thesemusic-based exercises for
mindfulness in your book.
Can you give me an example ofone of those?
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
Yes.
In terms of meditating,certainly a lot of us have
problems just sitting and theytell you, follow your breath.
So how do you follow yourbreath?
Some people say, you count yourbreaths from one to 10.
When I sat down to meditate, itwas hard for me to focus on
counting my, you know, thebreathing one to 10.
(45:46):
Well, how do musicians count?
You count beats and bars.
So you count one, two, three,four, two, two, three, four,
three.
So I started to count breathingas a musician would count
playing a piece of music.
And I call that rhythmiccounting.
And I find that over the lastfive, six years, teaching
(46:08):
different repertoires ofmeditation techniques, that's
one of the most populartechniques for musicians is
rhythmic counting.
Very simple.
Then we go a step further and weadd tones to the counting and
there's certain patterns oftones that we add.
So there are all these exerciseswith different intervals and
(46:30):
different ways of adding tonesand using rhythm and harmony and
melody to count the breath.
SPEAKER_04 (46:37):
Now the music part of it, do you incorporate the
music during the meditation?
How does that
SPEAKER_00 (46:43):
work?
What you do is you hear a tone,whatever comes in your mind, and
then as you inhale, and then youhear a related tone as you
exhale.
So you are hearing the tone.
And sometimes you're listeningto your breathing, just like you
listen to music.
And you are making the musicwith your breathing.
So yes, you are listening.
(47:04):
This is your own inner musicthat you are composing.
SPEAKER_04 (47:07):
Now, mindfulness is also a part of the whole
repertoire of meditation andmindfulness and music.
Can you tell me what is yourdefinition of mindfulness and an
example of mindfulness that youdo in your own life?
SPEAKER_00 (47:22):
Yeah, so when we talk about mindfulness, it
starts with concentration.
So you're able to focus or tunein to one direction.
That's how it starts.
And all the mindfulnesstrainings that I know, they all
start with concentrating.
And your object, theconcentration is usually a
breath.
Number two is sounds.
(47:43):
And so when you're tuning intoone direction, now what happens
is you're tuning out all theother stuff.
You're tuning out the turbulenceand the preoccupations and the
fixations.
And you're able to focus in anundistracted manner.
Now, of course, your mind willwander.
It's not perfect.
You're going to lose your focus.
(48:03):
It's okay because at some pointyou're going to bring it back.
So that's the concentration.
You are developing a skill nowto see things differently.
in a relatively undistractedway, which is very calming
because you're not going in amillion directions anymore.
Your monkey mind isn't pullingyou in every which way.
(48:24):
You're not going bonkers withthis stuff.
You're just focusing in onething, which is why, you know,
if you're just listening to apiece of music or you're
watching a television show,that's calming too because
you're not preoccupied with allthe turbulence in your mind.
What mindfulness does is ittakes that ability that you have
now developed to focus on onedirection and to move that
(48:49):
attentiveness to all the pointsin mindfulness, which means that
whatever comes across your fieldof experience, you're able to
see that and observe it in arelatively clear, calm way, just
as you were when you werefocusing in one direction.
Now you've developed the abilitynot to be so in the movie, but
(49:13):
to watch it.
Now, as you know, if you'rewatching a movie, you can always
realize if you're wrapped up init, hey, it's just a movie.
And you're able to control thesituation in terms of your own
reactions better than if youwere in the movie.
So in mindfulness, you're morelike you're watching the movie.
You're not entangled in thestory line.
(49:37):
Some people call it unentangledknowing because you're knowing
what's happening, but you'reknowing it in such a way that
it's not totally dominating yourway of thinking and your
feeling.
To go back to the musicalanalogy, when you practice or
rehearse with your band, that'slike developing mindfulness in
(49:58):
meditation.
Now, same thing with a musicianthat's practicing their
instrument or they're rehearsingwith the band.
Now you've got to go out andperform on the world stage.
Ah, that's mindfulness.
That's taking that ability thatyou develop rehearsing and using
that to perform on the worldstage.
(50:18):
You took that skill inmeditation, and now you apply it
to your life.
How do you apply it to yourlife?
You're in a situation in arelationship with somebody, and
there might be a difference ofopinion.
There might be a conflict.
Well, in your mind, you'refocusing on what they're saying.
Not on your reaction to whatthey're saying, but you're
(50:39):
focusing your attention on whatthey're saying and you're trying
to hear what they're saying andwhat they're not saying.
You're not responding to itright away.
As we say, you're watching themovie.
Now you're ready to respond in away that's a little more calm
and a little more clear becauseyou're watching it from a
distance.
When it's up here, it appears tobe a big problem.
(51:01):
When it's out here, it's muchsmaller and something you can
see it better.
You can see the whole picturebetter.
And that's a way to applymindfulness on a day-to-day
basis.
SPEAKER_04 (51:13):
When you look at a musician's lifestyle, which
you've seen all your life, whatdo you think are the conditions
that probably cause the highestlevel of stress?
SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
I think the deck is stacked against musicians in
terms of having mentalstability, you know.
People will tell you that theright hemisphere of your brain,
which is the creative part ofyour brain, is also the part
that's most susceptible tonegative thinking.
So if you're creative,especially in a musical way,
(51:44):
you're gonna be more vulnerable,more sensitive than most people.
And therefore they feel painmore acutely than most people.
And that's a problem.
So how do you deal with thepain?
Some people try to kill it withalcohol, kill it with drugs.
Meditation, mindfulness, youdon't try to kill it.
You don't try to push it away.
You try to live with it.
(52:04):
You try to coexist.
Coexistence is one of myfavorite words.
That's a way to get through thislife in a positive and
productive way is to learn howto coexist with the pain that
you feel.
When you're making music, it's ahigh for many different reasons.
And one of the biggest reasonsis you are going beyond
(52:27):
yourself.
Some people say everybody wantsthis connection beyond
themselves.
And when you're making music,you're going beyond yourself.
It's not about you anymore.
It's about the music and how themusic is connecting on a
transpersonal level.
And Alicia Keys said, when Imake music, it's like I'm
(52:48):
ascending somewhere beyond thestars.
It's a high.
Well, when you're not making themusic, Then what happens?
And you crash.
You've got to climb down off thehigh, climb down off the stage.
And now you've got to face life.
And you miss that high.
Where are you going to get thathigh from?
You don't have it anymore.
(53:08):
And your whole sense of purpose.
What is my purpose if I'm not onstage?
I have no purpose anymore.
And people look for drugs.
That'll make them high for awhile.
And others look at other things,belief in God.
Sometimes that'll make peoplehigh.
And also meditation.
That's not only a way to handleanxiety and develop mindfulness,
(53:30):
concentration, but it is a routeto having pleasures in peace and
just the joy of being alive.
Finding joy and some people saybliss.
And that is a thing.
SPEAKER_04 (53:46):
A big thank you to our musical guest, Wynonna Oak,
and our mental health expert,Richard Wolfie Wolf.
For more information on WynonnaOak, visit wynonnaoak.com, and
visit Wynonna on her socials, atWynonna Oak.
Stay tuned for a clip of WynonnaOak's single, Old Insecurities,
which will be playing soon.
(54:07):
For more information on RichardWolf and his book, In Tune,
Music as a Bridge toMindfulness, visit visit
richardwolff.net and followRichard on his socials at Wolff
in Tune.
So until next time, be brave,ask for help, and be persistent
in finding the mental healththat you need.
SPEAKER_01 (54:27):
I'm tired of me I try to be Somebody else I'm not
okay I'm not okay And I can'tblame Somebody else So let them
come for me Old insecuritiesI've been scared of going under
SPEAKER_02 (54:58):
Check
SPEAKER_04 (55:03):
Your Head podcast is kindly supported and partnered
with Sweet Relief MusiciansFund, DBSA San Gabriel Valley,
Earshot Media, and Lemon TreeStudios in Los Angeles.
Visit checkyourheadpodcast.comwhere we have over 100 solutions
for mental health.
Be our friends on social mediaat Check Your Head Podcast.
(55:24):
Watch us on YouTube and supportus with a kind donation on
checkyourheadpodcast.com.
Check Your Head Podcast issponsored by a 501c3 nonprofit
with all donations being taxdeductible.
Thank you for your support andthank you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.