July 25, 2022 • 21 mins
1 205
Another Bonus Episode of Chef Life Radio's ongoing series, "On the Dock," with the founder of The Burnt Chef Project, Kris Hall.
It's time to get raw and vulnerable with Kriss Hall.
"Understand that if something doesn't sit right with you, that's okay, and no one else can tell you otherwise. You've got to live with yourself. It's okay not to be okay."
Kris Hall is the founder of the Burnt Chef Project, a nonprofit social enterprise working to make the hospitality industry safer and more sustainable for everyone. Kriss has worked in hospitality for over ten years and has seen firsthand the challenges hospitality professionals face.
The Burnt Chef Project offers free online training, support services, and independent business reviews to help hospitality professionals thrive.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cody Maxwell (00:00):
Well, cheers to another one
Adam (00:03):
knives down aprons off the last table served.
The station's broken down.
Everything's even put awayyour inventory is complete.
And now it's time tomeet me on the back dock.
We're all the mostimportant meetings are held.
Take a deep breath andenjoy a job well done.
We shall at ease.
Kick off your clogs smoke.
'em if you got 'em in this episode,the burnt chef project, founder, Chris.
(00:25):
Meet us on the back dock to dish abouthow hard it was watching his chef
friends, earn out, leave the industryor worse, tap out because they didn't
have access to resources or thoughttheir voices didn't matter, or that
no one cared enough to get past theirarmor and ask the deeper question.
When was the last timeyou thought about suicide?
My name is Adam Lamb and I'vebeen a chef for over 30 years.
And on this show, we're aboutfacilitating change in our
(00:47):
current culinary career culture.
The work can be hard doesn'tnecessarily mean it should be harsh.
The work can be demanding.
Doesn't have to be demeaning,more belonging, less belittling,
more family, and less.
Fuck you.
How about a nice cold beverage?
Maybe one of these, uh, one of us willhave to bury the other aged Mexican
(01:08):
style lager from north Carolina's.
Burial brewing company, you know,something to strengthen our resolve, get
us moving if not in the right direction,then at least with the right motivation.
Oui?
Sara Barnhill (01:19):
Oh yes.
Chef
Adam (01:22):
Pull up a crate, get comfortable.
And let's dive deep with Kriss hall.
Kris (01:29):
I suppose.
Really the whole reason why I startedthe burnt chef project was just.
I was having these conversations ona regular basis with you're walking
with a truffle, you're walking with,you know, your, your finest gold
leaf and your chef, chef friend,client, you know, whoever it might be.
It just looks like they've been draggedthrough a Bush backwards and you send
(01:50):
like, you know, what's the problem.
Ah, it's, you know, 80 hour weeksthis week someone's let me down.
You know, I've got stuff going on at home,you know, the, this is going on at work.
It's just, it's constantlypiling up on me and it was just
something wasn't quite right.
You know, comparing it to myother backgrounds where perhaps
you'd work nine hours a day.
(02:12):
You know, you, you might get a goodhalf an hour, 45 minutes for lunch.
You know, you knew when your breaks were.
And I was just looking at this industrygoing, there's something fundamentally
wrong here, and it's not sustainable.
And I saw even two yearsago that just this model.
It's not sustainable and,you know, thank God I did.
And thank God.
I started to come up with some solutionsfor this and some guidance because if I
(02:34):
hadn't done it, COVID definitely, would'vedefinitely would've, uh, you know,
put this, put these worlds in motion.
Adam (02:42):
So you actually started the project because you felt called by
the, the relationships that you werehaving and just, they were reflecting
back just what a tough time they were.
Having and so you just tookit upon yourself to do it
Kris (02:59):
partly.
Yeah.
The, the other reason why Istarted it was because I'm 34 now.
And when I was 29, I was having a real,real hard time with my mental health.
I didn't know it.
I just thought it waseveryone else's problem.
And not mine as we often tend to then.
(03:20):
I, it culminated in me goinghome out of the blue one day.
You know, I was a captainof the local rugby club.
I'm a married, married man withtwo children and I went home.
Thank you.
Although sometimes, you know,it's, it's a tough gig, please
don't let my wife hear this.
But, uh, I, I went home outthe blue and just asked my
(03:41):
wife for a divorce, completelycompletely side sides, swiped her.
And she sort of couldn't understandwhere it was coming from.
In my head for years, I'd just beenbuilding up that I wasn't good enough.
I wasn't good enough to be partof a, you know, rugby club.
I wasn't good enough to be acceptedby my friends or my workplace.
I wasn't, you know, I wasn'tfitting within my marriage and
(04:06):
call it personality, crisis, callit some degree of depression, but
ultimately it, I I'd hit rock bottom.
And I was at complete odds, you know,to the point where I was actually
believing that when I walked around andlooked at people, walking through the.
But they didn't have anythinggoing on in their head.
And I was envious of otherpeople that they had this big
black space in their head.
(04:26):
And here I was worrying about everylast thing in my life on a daily
basis and not losing sleep over it.
So I went to go get some cognitivebehavioral therapy, um, which
lasted for a couple of months.
And it gave me this perception on life.
And I realized that Ididn't have any core values.
And so that put me on a bit ofa, you know, a two year long.
(04:48):
Life journey to try and establishwho I was, but also what I
wanted to do within life.
And, you know, talking about myexperiences with some of the people
that I was working with, uh, just ledme to the recognizing that I wasn't
alone in this and that there were otherpeople out there that could benefit from
having this conversation, but perhaps.
(05:08):
Certainly within ahospitality environment.
It wasn't the done thing to do.
So because you know,it's a badge of honor.
You gotta be tough.
You can't let the team down andany kind of weakness and that's it.
You, you know, you'rethrown to the wolves.
And for me, I was like, I don't wantanyone else to, to, to experience.
And I used the word experience ratherthan suffer experience what I went
(05:29):
through, because it's not great.
There is, there is light atthe end of the tunnel, but
yeah, it so much of that could.
Helped through openconversation and dialogue.
So yes, I, I, I took it upon myself,not knowing what I was doing, just
that I wanted to raise some awarenessthrough, um, through some black
(05:50):
and white photos that I was taking.
Adam (05:54):
yeah, they're brilliant, man.
They're brilliant.
Yeah.
You see a lot of 'em on the website,you know, the black and white images
of the chef's faces really uptightand close, and most of them are.
Most of them are not smiling.
no to bad.
You caught it.
You caught 'em in good moments.
So as you established these corevalues and really started to
(06:14):
embody them, how did that changeyour relationship with your wife?
Kris (06:21):
that's a good question.
That's a good question.
Um, sorry buddy.
No, no, that's fine.
My wife is a.
Very strong character.
She comes from a family offarmers, uh, in the west country
of Somerset who are very stoic.
(06:42):
And that was one reason whyI always second guess myself.
Cause I was looking at my father-in-lawand my brother-in-law and going Christ.
These are, these are men, you know?
Yeah.
My father-in-law climbs treesand cuts them down for a living,
you know, get raises Aberdeen,Angus calves, never complains.
He could cut his own arm off for thechainsaw, turn a K it up and still
(07:04):
climb up for tree and finish thisjob, you know, and you're right.
Am I get stung by a waspover here or a yellow jacket?
And that's it.
I'm screaming and running down the hill.
So.
Yeah, it it's, it's taken a few yearsto, to rectify and rebuild bridges
and to also to get some degree ofequilibrium back, because what I was
finding is that every single time mywife was asking me to do something,
(07:27):
you know, do you mind doing the dishes?
Do you mind taking the kids to school?
Whatever it might be.
I felt that it was a personalattack on me and it, it just, it,
it just rocked me every single time.
It put me off kilter and it wasn't untilI realized that I couldn't actually.
I could say no.
I mean, in the most cases youwanna say yes to your wife and
(07:47):
make, you know, make a happy casewhen it comes down to your kids.
But it was because I feltthat I couldn't say no.
And I felt like I didn'thave a decision in it.
So over a few years, we've managedto get that sort of equilibrium where
I'm actually be like, I can't do that.
Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not able to do that atthis moment in time and I'm not, and
we've, we've ended up coming to this.
Uh, yeah, I would say this, asI say an equilibrium now it's.
(08:12):
Uh, an understanding and our relationshipnow sort of seven years on our
anniversary was two days ago, sevenyears on our wedding anniversary.
We're um, yeah, we're, we're in a muchbetter place than we ever have been.
Adam (08:22):
That's awesome.
You know, when I decided to rebootthis, uh, podcast, I committed to,
you know, not only talking to chefsin the industry, but also talking to.
Experts in other fields.
So, you know, in a couple weeks we'regonna be talking to this relationship
coach that my wife and I used a yearago, because we got so much out of it.
And I recognize that one of the biggestlies we tell ourselves, or at least
(08:47):
I'll own it and say, You know, I sharethat core value of transparency and, and
vulnerability with you because there'sno way that I can ask anybody else to
do that if I'm not gonna be there first.
But I recognize that one of thebiggest lies I ever told myself is, you
know, I leave it at the door, right?
Come in the kitchen.
And now you're gonna Dawn your apron,like a, like a piece of armor and,
(09:09):
uh, buckle down and granted sometimeskind of the rote rhythmic mechanical.
Things that you do to go through yourday kind of allows allowed me my, my
mind to kind of disengage and only befocused on what was in front of me,
which is a great distraction, but itnever really helped me sort anything
(09:29):
else out that problem was always waiting.
And I always felt the stressof that, whether I would
admit it to anybody or not.
So, so for me, it's like, I want tobe able to assist in any way that.
And this conversation about mental healthis also so intrinsically wound with
physical health and relational health.
(09:51):
And, you know, it's allpart of the same thing.
So I don't want anybody telling themselvesthe same lie that, you know, they can
go to work and just, and, and it beokay, at least for a while I read a post
yesterday where this, this young womandecided to leave her current employer.
Even though she felt guilty aboutit because of everything she's
(10:13):
read about, you know, that theindustry's on its backside and
nobody's coming in through the door.
And she understood that because she wasdealing with those kinds of stresses,
but she was asking the group like,oh, so how should I feel about this?
And what would your response Chris be?
I mean, to me it seems pretty simple, but
Kris (10:34):
go ahead.
I don't know.
Again.
I think for me, like she feelsthe way she feels and no one
can tell her any differently.
Like no one can tell her that's correct.
No one can tell her that's wrong.
Everyone's gonna feeldifferently about it.
You know, you're gonna have peopleout there who say, ah, fuck it.
You know, you, you're better than that.
(10:54):
And you're gonna have other peoplesaying, oh, actually, you know, you
should, you should stick with it.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
But I think ultimatelywhat you've got to trust.
Is that little thing called gut instinct,which over the years, we've, we've
taught ourselves to ignore, but actuallyover the, over the years of evolution
(11:15):
and how we've changed as human beings.
And we think that our brainsbecome smarter and more able
to cope with everything.
Our gut stayed exactly the same.
And our gut's been with us in thesame format for thousands more
years than our brain has done.
it's full of much, muchmore nerve endings.
And I think the point I'm trying tomake is that we need to start spending
(11:38):
more time listening to our gut instinct.
So if your gut tells you that youfeel guilty, then you need to perhaps
lean into that and find out exactlywhy is it that you feel guilty?
Is it because you feel like you owethis employee something, in which case,
you know, what is it that you owe theemployer and what do you owe yourself?
You know, what is it that.
(11:58):
That you need in life to, tobe fulfilled and to be enrich.
Yes.
You need to pay, pay the bills.
Yes.
You need to, you know, have purpose,but at the same time, do you need
to have those things that sacrificeof your own wellbeing, your own
physical, mental health, and also, youknow, the relationships around you.
You can have.
(12:19):
And I think, again, we, in thisindustry, we've perhaps become a
little bit blinkered and we believethat we have to stay where we are,
because we're not gonna get it as goodas we've got in the current place.
But the industry is the thirdlargest sector in the entire world.
You know, this is a profession thatemploys 17, 2 million people worldwide.
(12:40):
The chances are there'sgonna be another place out.
That may completely blow your mindway open and offer you opportunities
and balances that you have never,never even conceived before.
Adam (12:55):
I think that's, uh, I think that's great advice.
Um, you know, I, I'm a big fanof self nurture only because for
most of my career, I didn't evenknow what the hell that was.
I thought self nurture was.
Hanging out with the boys andgirls after working, you know,
having a couple pops or whateverelse was going on in the bathroom.
But as I've gotten a little bitlong in the tooth, I recognize that
(13:16):
that could be just about anything,whether that's exercise or a hot
bath or a massage or whatever.
But I recognize that the people thatare drawn to this industry are, are
drawn to it because they, they feelsomething inside that they want to give.
They want to nurture others.
So very often we're putting ourselvesway at the end of the queue, as far
(13:40):
as, as far as folks to take care of.
And, um, again, through my ownexperience, I would say that it's
really hard to give from an empty cup.
Kris (13:51):
Yeah.
And, and I think we take the wholeservice industry as almost a step too far.
Like let's not, let's notbeat around the Bush here.
If you're a chef.
, if you're a chef, your job is toput someone's dinner onto a plate.
You can dress it up in as manydifferent ways as you want.
You can make as brilliant Bush mails,or you can do whatever you need to and
(14:14):
serve it up in as many different ways.
But ultimately.
We're serving people food.
And I think that we need to just takea step back and understand that yes,
our jobs are in the service industry,but we also need to be responsible
for servicing ourself and servicing,you know, those around us as well.
And I think that's, that's one thing that,you know, COVID has really done very well.
(14:39):
Is this given that.
Spotlight effect to the factthat actually we haven't really
been looking after ourselves.
So well, we spent so much timelooking after other people that
we're now in some pretty darkstates when it comes to ourselves.
So we just, you know, this is a lesson,a huge once in a lifetime, once in a
generation time lesson that we are,that we're, we're currently learning
(15:01):
and we're trying to find our way out of
Adam (15:04):
couldn't agree.
More.
Couldn't agree.
More.
Chris, do you have any final thoughts?
Kris (15:09):
I,
Adam (15:09):
no, I mean, you, I you've obviously had so many going in your head right now.
Kris (15:14):
Uh, mate, honestly, if I could, if I could, even if I could even
begin to try and articulate the root,I mean, Again, every everything that
that Behe project has been built onis people telling me that I can't
do things it's never gonna change.
(15:35):
And that, you know, this is aproblem that's here to stay.
And so absolutely everything.
The thing that really gets me, andagain, this is about mentality.
So the thing that really hurtsme is I'm still too close to
this at this moment in time.
So when you get a messagecome through from someone.
You failed because they haven't beenable to use the service, perhaps your
(15:57):
instructions weren't clear enough, or theyweren't able to use it in the right way.
And they tell you that you're no good.
You should shut down that you'renot doing any good for the industry.
That for me, is it hurts.
But rather than look at that as a personalattack, which, you know, has taken
me a little bit of time to get over.
I start looking at it as the.
(16:18):
Why is that the case?
You know, what have we not done?
Right.
What can we do better inorder to make our thing?
Right.
And I just think that for anyone that'slisten out there and thinks, you know
what, Chris, you've got this completelywrong, or you've not managed to do this.
Then please come explain, talk to me.
Chances are that if I'mwrong, I'll put my hands up.
(16:38):
I'll say, okay, I didn'tsee it like that before.
Great suggestion.
You know, I had a, I had, um, a lady.
A lovely black lady.
She came to me recently and said,why haven't you got any training
on slavery and modern day slavery?
And I was like, well, why?
And she was like, well,this is the reason why.
(16:59):
And it happened to my dad andhe worked in hospitality and
I was like, bloody great idea.
Awesome idea.
Like, I can't believe I missed it.
I'm so sorry that you knowthat I didn't have this answer.
Right.
So I think.
I'm human.
I make mistakes.
I'm not gonna be able to solveevery single problem at time.
But in time we will do, if we startworking more together as an industry,
(17:20):
this is the great thing about hospitality.
We are a giant bloody team and we stopeating at each other and start working
out how we can work together to fix this.
And it might just be a small thing,like asking your KP, where he went to
eat with his, his family last night orher family last night and watch what he
liked about that meal and what influenceshe would like to see on the menu.
(17:43):
What flavors it involved, it mightbe starting with something small like
that, that, that valuing a member ofyour team, or it could be saying to
me, Chris, actually, do you know what?
This is a big problem within the industry.
And I'd like to know either a, how youare, how you're looking to address it,
or B what can we do to get it fixed?
So it's not really a final point.
I think it was more of a soliloquy,but ultimately I'm here to help.
(18:07):
Help me to help you.
And let's all work.
Get this together.
You know, I don't want, Idon't want a massive gold star
above my head for any of this.
I just wanna make sure thatsomewhere, someone somewhere knows
that they're not alone and that
Adam (18:20):
well that's, that's why it's so interesting because you know,
I had to search for you, right.
Because it's not necessarilyapparent on the website.
Right.
So you can go all through it.
And it's almost like the workis, is more important than.
Who you are as an individualor, or the individuals coming
together to produce this.
And I, I appreciate that becausewhat it says to me is there's very
(18:43):
little ego that's involved, right?
It's all coming from a very sincere place.
And if I knew of another website or, and,and I mean the website only as the front
facing portion of this, but I recognizeall the work that went into that.
And I just want to say for every otherculinary out there in the world, Listening
(19:06):
to this or interacting with that website.
I really thank you, man, because it is,um, as I said earlier, it's an amazing
resource, but the resource doesn'tmean shit if you're not gonna use it.
So I encourage everybody to get inthere, dig in, find stuff that you
like, find stuff that you, you know,don't like, you want argue about it.
You want to have a conversation.
(19:27):
That's fantastic because the realityis we are all in this together.
We either rise together or we fall.
Solely alone.
And I wanna leave this industrybetter than when I found it.
This has been a special crewmember, only episode of on the dock.
Can't tell you how much it means to methat you are part of the crew stepping
(19:49):
in and raising your voice to be counted.
There's a new kitchen culture coming,and we all get to be part of it.
It's what we always wanted to begin with.
We'll be dropping newepisodes soon, including.
Line check music to break the linedown to here at chef life radio.
We believe that working in akitchen should be demanding.
It shouldn't have to be demeaning.
(20:10):
It should be hard.
It just doesn't have to be harsh.
We believe that it's possible to havemore solidarity and less suck it up.
Sunshine, more compassion,less cutthroat island.
We believe in more partner.
And less put up or shutup more family and less.
Fuck you.
Needless to say, we believe in, youfinally consider for a second for
(20:30):
all the blood, sweat, and tears.
We put into what we do thatreally at the end of the day,
it's just some stuff on a plate.
None of it really matters.
It doesn't define you as aperson or make you any more
special or less than anyone else.
It's just the dance that we're engaged in.
So we might as well laugh andenjoy every bit of it or didn't,
you know, that the purpose ofyour life should be to enjoy it.
(20:51):
Check us out at facebook.com/cheflife, radio Twitter at chef life, radio
Instagram at chef life radio standtall and frosty brothers and sisters
until next time be well and do good.
This show was written.
Produced and recorded by me, Adam Lambat the dish pit, em Bardo, North Carolina
(21:11):
it's co-produced by Thomas Stinson.
Chef life radio is aproduct of food works media.
Well, cheers to another one
Adam (00:03):
knives down aprons off the last table served.
The station's broken down.
Everything's even put awayyour inventory is complete.
And now it's time tomeet me on the back dock.
We're all the mostimportant meetings are held.
Take a deep breath andenjoy a job well done.
We shall at ease.
Kick off your clogs smoke.
'em if you got 'em in this episode,the burnt chef project, founder, Chris.
(00:25):
Meet us on the back dock to dish abouthow hard it was watching his chef
friends, earn out, leave the industryor worse, tap out because they didn't
have access to resources or thoughttheir voices didn't matter, or that
no one cared enough to get past theirarmor and ask the deeper question.
When was the last timeyou thought about suicide?
My name is Adam Lamb and I'vebeen a chef for over 30 years.
And on this show, we're aboutfacilitating change in our
(00:47):
current culinary career culture.
The work can be hard doesn'tnecessarily mean it should be harsh.
The work can be demanding.
Doesn't have to be demeaning,more belonging, less belittling,
more family, and less.
Fuck you.
How about a nice cold beverage?
Maybe one of these, uh, one of us willhave to bury the other aged Mexican
(01:08):
style lager from north Carolina's.
Burial brewing company, you know,something to strengthen our resolve, get
us moving if not in the right direction,then at least with the right motivation.
Oui?
Sara Barnhill (01:19):
Oh yes.
Chef
Adam (01:22):
Pull up a crate, get comfortable.
And let's dive deep with Kriss hall.
Kris (01:29):
I suppose.
Really the whole reason why I startedthe burnt chef project was just.
I was having these conversations ona regular basis with you're walking
with a truffle, you're walking with,you know, your, your finest gold
leaf and your chef, chef friend,client, you know, whoever it might be.
It just looks like they've been draggedthrough a Bush backwards and you send
(01:50):
like, you know, what's the problem.
Ah, it's, you know, 80 hour weeksthis week someone's let me down.
You know, I've got stuff going on at home,you know, the, this is going on at work.
It's just, it's constantlypiling up on me and it was just
something wasn't quite right.
You know, comparing it to myother backgrounds where perhaps
you'd work nine hours a day.
(02:12):
You know, you, you might get a goodhalf an hour, 45 minutes for lunch.
You know, you knew when your breaks were.
And I was just looking at this industrygoing, there's something fundamentally
wrong here, and it's not sustainable.
And I saw even two yearsago that just this model.
It's not sustainable and,you know, thank God I did.
And thank God.
I started to come up with some solutionsfor this and some guidance because if I
(02:34):
hadn't done it, COVID definitely, would'vedefinitely would've, uh, you know,
put this, put these worlds in motion.
Adam (02:42):
So you actually started the project because you felt called by
the, the relationships that you werehaving and just, they were reflecting
back just what a tough time they were.
Having and so you just tookit upon yourself to do it
Kris (02:59):
partly.
Yeah.
The, the other reason why Istarted it was because I'm 34 now.
And when I was 29, I was having a real,real hard time with my mental health.
I didn't know it.
I just thought it waseveryone else's problem.
And not mine as we often tend to then.
(03:20):
I, it culminated in me goinghome out of the blue one day.
You know, I was a captainof the local rugby club.
I'm a married, married man withtwo children and I went home.
Thank you.
Although sometimes, you know,it's, it's a tough gig, please
don't let my wife hear this.
But, uh, I, I went home outthe blue and just asked my
(03:41):
wife for a divorce, completelycompletely side sides, swiped her.
And she sort of couldn't understandwhere it was coming from.
In my head for years, I'd just beenbuilding up that I wasn't good enough.
I wasn't good enough to be partof a, you know, rugby club.
I wasn't good enough to be acceptedby my friends or my workplace.
I wasn't, you know, I wasn'tfitting within my marriage and
(04:06):
call it personality, crisis, callit some degree of depression, but
ultimately it, I I'd hit rock bottom.
And I was at complete odds, you know,to the point where I was actually
believing that when I walked around andlooked at people, walking through the.
But they didn't have anythinggoing on in their head.
And I was envious of otherpeople that they had this big
black space in their head.
(04:26):
And here I was worrying about everylast thing in my life on a daily
basis and not losing sleep over it.
So I went to go get some cognitivebehavioral therapy, um, which
lasted for a couple of months.
And it gave me this perception on life.
And I realized that Ididn't have any core values.
And so that put me on a bit ofa, you know, a two year long.
(04:48):
Life journey to try and establishwho I was, but also what I
wanted to do within life.
And, you know, talking about myexperiences with some of the people
that I was working with, uh, just ledme to the recognizing that I wasn't
alone in this and that there were otherpeople out there that could benefit from
having this conversation, but perhaps.
(05:08):
Certainly within ahospitality environment.
It wasn't the done thing to do.
So because you know,it's a badge of honor.
You gotta be tough.
You can't let the team down andany kind of weakness and that's it.
You, you know, you'rethrown to the wolves.
And for me, I was like, I don't wantanyone else to, to, to experience.
And I used the word experience ratherthan suffer experience what I went
(05:29):
through, because it's not great.
There is, there is light atthe end of the tunnel, but
yeah, it so much of that could.
Helped through openconversation and dialogue.
So yes, I, I, I took it upon myself,not knowing what I was doing, just
that I wanted to raise some awarenessthrough, um, through some black
(05:50):
and white photos that I was taking.
Adam (05:54):
yeah, they're brilliant, man.
They're brilliant.
Yeah.
You see a lot of 'em on the website,you know, the black and white images
of the chef's faces really uptightand close, and most of them are.
Most of them are not smiling.
no to bad.
You caught it.
You caught 'em in good moments.
So as you established these corevalues and really started to
(06:14):
embody them, how did that changeyour relationship with your wife?
Kris (06:21):
that's a good question.
That's a good question.
Um, sorry buddy.
No, no, that's fine.
My wife is a.
Very strong character.
She comes from a family offarmers, uh, in the west country
of Somerset who are very stoic.
(06:42):
And that was one reason whyI always second guess myself.
Cause I was looking at my father-in-lawand my brother-in-law and going Christ.
These are, these are men, you know?
Yeah.
My father-in-law climbs treesand cuts them down for a living,
you know, get raises Aberdeen,Angus calves, never complains.
He could cut his own arm off for thechainsaw, turn a K it up and still
(07:04):
climb up for tree and finish thisjob, you know, and you're right.
Am I get stung by a waspover here or a yellow jacket?
And that's it.
I'm screaming and running down the hill.
So.
Yeah, it it's, it's taken a few yearsto, to rectify and rebuild bridges
and to also to get some degree ofequilibrium back, because what I was
finding is that every single time mywife was asking me to do something,
(07:27):
you know, do you mind doing the dishes?
Do you mind taking the kids to school?
Whatever it might be.
I felt that it was a personalattack on me and it, it just, it,
it just rocked me every single time.
It put me off kilter and it wasn't untilI realized that I couldn't actually.
I could say no.
I mean, in the most cases youwanna say yes to your wife and
(07:47):
make, you know, make a happy casewhen it comes down to your kids.
But it was because I feltthat I couldn't say no.
And I felt like I didn'thave a decision in it.
So over a few years, we've managedto get that sort of equilibrium where
I'm actually be like, I can't do that.
Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not able to do that atthis moment in time and I'm not, and
we've, we've ended up coming to this.
Uh, yeah, I would say this, asI say an equilibrium now it's.
(08:12):
Uh, an understanding and our relationshipnow sort of seven years on our
anniversary was two days ago, sevenyears on our wedding anniversary.
We're um, yeah, we're, we're in a muchbetter place than we ever have been.
Adam (08:22):
That's awesome.
You know, when I decided to rebootthis, uh, podcast, I committed to,
you know, not only talking to chefsin the industry, but also talking to.
Experts in other fields.
So, you know, in a couple weeks we'regonna be talking to this relationship
coach that my wife and I used a yearago, because we got so much out of it.
And I recognize that one of the biggestlies we tell ourselves, or at least
(08:47):
I'll own it and say, You know, I sharethat core value of transparency and, and
vulnerability with you because there'sno way that I can ask anybody else to
do that if I'm not gonna be there first.
But I recognize that one of thebiggest lies I ever told myself is, you
know, I leave it at the door, right?
Come in the kitchen.
And now you're gonna Dawn your apron,like a, like a piece of armor and,
(09:09):
uh, buckle down and granted sometimeskind of the rote rhythmic mechanical.
Things that you do to go through yourday kind of allows allowed me my, my
mind to kind of disengage and only befocused on what was in front of me,
which is a great distraction, but itnever really helped me sort anything
(09:29):
else out that problem was always waiting.
And I always felt the stressof that, whether I would
admit it to anybody or not.
So, so for me, it's like, I want tobe able to assist in any way that.
And this conversation about mental healthis also so intrinsically wound with
physical health and relational health.
(09:51):
And, you know, it's allpart of the same thing.
So I don't want anybody telling themselvesthe same lie that, you know, they can
go to work and just, and, and it beokay, at least for a while I read a post
yesterday where this, this young womandecided to leave her current employer.
Even though she felt guilty aboutit because of everything she's
(10:13):
read about, you know, that theindustry's on its backside and
nobody's coming in through the door.
And she understood that because she wasdealing with those kinds of stresses,
but she was asking the group like,oh, so how should I feel about this?
And what would your response Chris be?
I mean, to me it seems pretty simple, but
Kris (10:34):
go ahead.
I don't know.
Again.
I think for me, like she feelsthe way she feels and no one
can tell her any differently.
Like no one can tell her that's correct.
No one can tell her that's wrong.
Everyone's gonna feeldifferently about it.
You know, you're gonna have peopleout there who say, ah, fuck it.
You know, you, you're better than that.
(10:54):
And you're gonna have other peoplesaying, oh, actually, you know, you
should, you should stick with it.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
But I think ultimatelywhat you've got to trust.
Is that little thing called gut instinct,which over the years, we've, we've
taught ourselves to ignore, but actuallyover the, over the years of evolution
(11:15):
and how we've changed as human beings.
And we think that our brainsbecome smarter and more able
to cope with everything.
Our gut stayed exactly the same.
And our gut's been with us in thesame format for thousands more
years than our brain has done.
it's full of much, muchmore nerve endings.
And I think the point I'm trying tomake is that we need to start spending
(11:38):
more time listening to our gut instinct.
So if your gut tells you that youfeel guilty, then you need to perhaps
lean into that and find out exactlywhy is it that you feel guilty?
Is it because you feel like you owethis employee something, in which case,
you know, what is it that you owe theemployer and what do you owe yourself?
You know, what is it that.
(11:58):
That you need in life to, tobe fulfilled and to be enrich.
Yes.
You need to pay, pay the bills.
Yes.
You need to, you know, have purpose,but at the same time, do you need
to have those things that sacrificeof your own wellbeing, your own
physical, mental health, and also, youknow, the relationships around you.
You can have.
(12:19):
And I think, again, we, in thisindustry, we've perhaps become a
little bit blinkered and we believethat we have to stay where we are,
because we're not gonna get it as goodas we've got in the current place.
But the industry is the thirdlargest sector in the entire world.
You know, this is a profession thatemploys 17, 2 million people worldwide.
(12:40):
The chances are there'sgonna be another place out.
That may completely blow your mindway open and offer you opportunities
and balances that you have never,never even conceived before.
Adam (12:55):
I think that's, uh, I think that's great advice.
Um, you know, I, I'm a big fanof self nurture only because for
most of my career, I didn't evenknow what the hell that was.
I thought self nurture was.
Hanging out with the boys andgirls after working, you know,
having a couple pops or whateverelse was going on in the bathroom.
But as I've gotten a little bitlong in the tooth, I recognize that
(13:16):
that could be just about anything,whether that's exercise or a hot
bath or a massage or whatever.
But I recognize that the people thatare drawn to this industry are, are
drawn to it because they, they feelsomething inside that they want to give.
They want to nurture others.
So very often we're putting ourselvesway at the end of the queue, as far
(13:40):
as, as far as folks to take care of.
And, um, again, through my ownexperience, I would say that it's
really hard to give from an empty cup.
Kris (13:51):
Yeah.
And, and I think we take the wholeservice industry as almost a step too far.
Like let's not, let's notbeat around the Bush here.
If you're a chef.
, if you're a chef, your job is toput someone's dinner onto a plate.
You can dress it up in as manydifferent ways as you want.
You can make as brilliant Bush mails,or you can do whatever you need to and
(14:14):
serve it up in as many different ways.
But ultimately.
We're serving people food.
And I think that we need to just takea step back and understand that yes,
our jobs are in the service industry,but we also need to be responsible
for servicing ourself and servicing,you know, those around us as well.
And I think that's, that's one thing that,you know, COVID has really done very well.
(14:39):
Is this given that.
Spotlight effect to the factthat actually we haven't really
been looking after ourselves.
So well, we spent so much timelooking after other people that
we're now in some pretty darkstates when it comes to ourselves.
So we just, you know, this is a lesson,a huge once in a lifetime, once in a
generation time lesson that we are,that we're, we're currently learning
(15:01):
and we're trying to find our way out of
Adam (15:04):
couldn't agree.
More.
Couldn't agree.
More.
Chris, do you have any final thoughts?
Kris (15:09):
I,
Adam (15:09):
no, I mean, you, I you've obviously had so many going in your head right now.
Kris (15:14):
Uh, mate, honestly, if I could, if I could, even if I could even
begin to try and articulate the root,I mean, Again, every everything that
that Behe project has been built onis people telling me that I can't
do things it's never gonna change.
(15:35):
And that, you know, this is aproblem that's here to stay.
And so absolutely everything.
The thing that really gets me, andagain, this is about mentality.
So the thing that really hurtsme is I'm still too close to
this at this moment in time.
So when you get a messagecome through from someone.
You failed because they haven't beenable to use the service, perhaps your
(15:57):
instructions weren't clear enough, or theyweren't able to use it in the right way.
And they tell you that you're no good.
You should shut down that you'renot doing any good for the industry.
That for me, is it hurts.
But rather than look at that as a personalattack, which, you know, has taken
me a little bit of time to get over.
I start looking at it as the.
(16:18):
Why is that the case?
You know, what have we not done?
Right.
What can we do better inorder to make our thing?
Right.
And I just think that for anyone that'slisten out there and thinks, you know
what, Chris, you've got this completelywrong, or you've not managed to do this.
Then please come explain, talk to me.
Chances are that if I'mwrong, I'll put my hands up.
(16:38):
I'll say, okay, I didn'tsee it like that before.
Great suggestion.
You know, I had a, I had, um, a lady.
A lovely black lady.
She came to me recently and said,why haven't you got any training
on slavery and modern day slavery?
And I was like, well, why?
And she was like, well,this is the reason why.
(16:59):
And it happened to my dad andhe worked in hospitality and
I was like, bloody great idea.
Awesome idea.
Like, I can't believe I missed it.
I'm so sorry that you knowthat I didn't have this answer.
Right.
So I think.
I'm human.
I make mistakes.
I'm not gonna be able to solveevery single problem at time.
But in time we will do, if we startworking more together as an industry,
(17:20):
this is the great thing about hospitality.
We are a giant bloody team and we stopeating at each other and start working
out how we can work together to fix this.
And it might just be a small thing,like asking your KP, where he went to
eat with his, his family last night orher family last night and watch what he
liked about that meal and what influenceshe would like to see on the menu.
(17:43):
What flavors it involved, it mightbe starting with something small like
that, that, that valuing a member ofyour team, or it could be saying to
me, Chris, actually, do you know what?
This is a big problem within the industry.
And I'd like to know either a, how youare, how you're looking to address it,
or B what can we do to get it fixed?
So it's not really a final point.
I think it was more of a soliloquy,but ultimately I'm here to help.
(18:07):
Help me to help you.
And let's all work.
Get this together.
You know, I don't want, Idon't want a massive gold star
above my head for any of this.
I just wanna make sure thatsomewhere, someone somewhere knows
that they're not alone and that
Adam (18:20):
well that's, that's why it's so interesting because you know,
I had to search for you, right.
Because it's not necessarilyapparent on the website.
Right.
So you can go all through it.
And it's almost like the workis, is more important than.
Who you are as an individualor, or the individuals coming
together to produce this.
And I, I appreciate that becausewhat it says to me is there's very
(18:43):
little ego that's involved, right?
It's all coming from a very sincere place.
And if I knew of another website or, and,and I mean the website only as the front
facing portion of this, but I recognizeall the work that went into that.
And I just want to say for every otherculinary out there in the world, Listening
(19:06):
to this or interacting with that website.
I really thank you, man, because it is,um, as I said earlier, it's an amazing
resource, but the resource doesn'tmean shit if you're not gonna use it.
So I encourage everybody to get inthere, dig in, find stuff that you
like, find stuff that you, you know,don't like, you want argue about it.
You want to have a conversation.
(19:27):
That's fantastic because the realityis we are all in this together.
We either rise together or we fall.
Solely alone.
And I wanna leave this industrybetter than when I found it.
This has been a special crewmember, only episode of on the dock.
Can't tell you how much it means to methat you are part of the crew stepping
(19:49):
in and raising your voice to be counted.
There's a new kitchen culture coming,and we all get to be part of it.
It's what we always wanted to begin with.
We'll be dropping newepisodes soon, including.
Line check music to break the linedown to here at chef life radio.
We believe that working in akitchen should be demanding.
It shouldn't have to be demeaning.
(20:10):
It should be hard.
It just doesn't have to be harsh.
We believe that it's possible to havemore solidarity and less suck it up.
Sunshine, more compassion,less cutthroat island.
We believe in more partner.
And less put up or shutup more family and less.
Fuck you.
Needless to say, we believe in, youfinally consider for a second for
(20:30):
all the blood, sweat, and tears.
We put into what we do thatreally at the end of the day,
it's just some stuff on a plate.
None of it really matters.
It doesn't define you as aperson or make you any more
special or less than anyone else.
It's just the dance that we're engaged in.
So we might as well laugh andenjoy every bit of it or didn't,
you know, that the purpose ofyour life should be to enjoy it.
(20:51):
Check us out at facebook.com/cheflife, radio Twitter at chef life, radio
Instagram at chef life radio standtall and frosty brothers and sisters
until next time be well and do good.
This show was written.
Produced and recorded by me, Adam Lambat the dish pit, em Bardo, North Carolina
(21:11):
it's co-produced by Thomas Stinson.
Chef life radio is aproduct of food works media.
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