Exploring Scottish Cuisine with Scotland's National Chef Gary Maclean

Episode Transcript
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Chris Spear (00:01):
If your knowledge of Scottish cuisine is limited
to haggis, and whatever you'velearned from Groundskeeper
Willie on The Simpsons, today,you're in for a treat. My guest
is Gary Maclean, the Nationalchef of Scotland. Prior to our
conversation, I had littleknowledge about Scottish food
and cooking, which is why I wantto have Gary on the show. I'm
guessing that many of you alsodon't know too much about

(00:21):
Scottish cuisine. So today isthe day all that changes. This
is Chris spear and you'relistening to Chefs Without
Restaurants, the show where Ispeak with culinary
entrepreneurs and people workingin the food and beverage
industry outside of atraditional restaurant setting.
I have 31 years working inkitchens but not restaurants and
currently operate a personalchef business throwing dinner
parties in the Washington DCarea.

(00:43):
Do you remember that SNL skit inthe 90s with Mike Myers, he ran
a shop called all thingsScottish. And whenever a
customer walked in the doorbagpipes played and he yelled
welcome to all things Scottish.
If it's not Scottish, it's crap.
I'll save you my attempt at aScottish accent there. Well,
besides that, and some haggisjokes, I hadn't had much
exposure to Scottish cuisine orculture, except maybe when it

(01:03):
comes to whiskey. I have spentsome time in the UK but only in
Wales and England. And we dotalk about some of the
similarities and differencesthere. But that's why I was
really excited to have Gary onthe podcast. He's Scotland's
first national chef, a role hewas offered after winning
MasterChef the professionals in2016. Gary also recently
released a new cookbook forNorth American audiences called

(01:24):
the Scottish kitchen. It'ssomewhat of an adaptation of a
book he released last year, hejust did some of the recipes to
take into account ingredientsthat were available to us here
in North America. For instance,you can't buy cheap lungs
legally in the US for haggis.
And while you might assume tojust add more liver, which is
something I would have assumedhe actually suggest adding
ground pork or chicken to keepit from tasting to livery. Gary

(01:45):
is also a teacher and wediscussed the importance of
culinary education and teachingchildren about food and
nutrition from a young age. Wealso talked about his MasterChef
experience and what he considersto be the best culinary products
in Scotland. He likes to remindpeople that Angus beef is a
Scottish breed of cattle ofcourse. So if you're new to
Scottish cuisine, and likelearning new things like I do, I

(02:06):
think you're going to enjoy thisepisode. And a little teaser for
next week, I'll be releasing myepisode with Tiffani Thiessen.
You might know her from her timeon Saved by the Bell and Beverly
Hills 90210. But she's also atwo time cookbook author, so
that will be out next week. Inthe meantime, if you want to
stay connected go to chefswithout restaurants.org. From
there you'll find links to ourInstagram and private Facebook

(02:28):
group for culinaryentrepreneurs, as well as the
link to sign up for our ChefsWithout Restaurants newsletter
and more. As always, if you'reenjoying the show, please share
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States personal chefassociation. So this week's
episode will be coming right upafter a word from the USPCA

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Hey Gary, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for
coming on.

Gary Maclean (03:54):
Hi, Chris. Thanks for having us. It's nice to be
here.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to you today.
You know, I selfishly like tohave people on the show who can
teach me something and I don'tknow anything about Scottish
cooking or cuisine really. And Ithink you're probably the guy to
talk to right. You talk aboutScottish cuisine a lot.

Unknown (04:11):
Yeah, I do. I'm Scotland's national chef. And I
also write cookery books basedon historical and contemporary
Scottish fit. So yeah, I know alot of Scottish fit.

How do you get to be the national chef of Scotland

Unknown (04:29):
and I was actually asked by the Scottish
Government. I did. I did the TVshow MasterChef. The
professionals. You guys have itthere. I think Gordon Ramsay a
fellow Glaswegian as the as themain host on your show. I think
I've heard of him. We have threeMasterChef shows in the UK. One
is the regular one the use ofgot we've got our celebrity one,

(04:54):
and we have a professional one.
So we have professional chefthat go on Master Chef and
compete against each other. So Idid that a few years ago and
managed to win it. And I hadabout 15 minutes of fame. And
during that time, the ScottishGovernment asked me if I'd be
interested in supporting it andbeing Scotland's national chef.

So what does that mean? I assume your
responsibilities are kind ofraising awareness of Scottish
cuisine is that the long andshort of it,

Unknown (05:22):
to be honest, that isn't that particular part is
not in my remit. And I was giventhis kind of fig Dorsey, of
about 4000 things that theywould like the National chef to
do. And I pet two things, youknow, if I was going to make any
impact at all, there was no muchpoint trying to do everything I
thought, I'm going to set toreally what I'm passionate

(05:44):
about. And one of them waseducation and, and teaching kids
to cook. Anything that would getyoung people into our kitchen
and learn and fundamental lifeskills, habits, happy to support
and also support for charitieswho are feeding people who

(06:04):
wouldn't normally have food. Andthat's my main objective and
Scotland. When I travel, I setmy chest out and tell the world
what an amazing place and whatamazing food Scotland's got. And
I support export of Scotland'sfood and drink. What do you
think

Scotland does best food wise? Like what are the
products you really think aretop notch and say we have the
best.

Unknown (06:29):
We, without a doubt have the best fish and
shellfish. Scotland has got morecoastline and France and Spain
combined. We've got the perfectGeography and Environment for
fish and shellfish. Just, youknow, luck, I suppose luck and
weather and things like that.
But we also have the gulf streamthat comes up from South America

(06:49):
right across the Atlantic. Andit runs right up the west coast
of Scotland. So what that doesis a constant supply of
nutrients and food for our fishand shellfish. And also raises
the temperature of the water onwater by a degree, which again,
helps boost there. So thatcombined with environment that
combined with our weather anduntouched seas, we definitely

(07:13):
provide the best fish andshellfish in the world. Without
a doubt, and I can say that

I'm from New England, and I think you know,
like we have lobster coming fromMaine. But you guys have
phenomenal lobster there, don'tyou?

Unknown (07:27):
Yeah, I mean, I was doing a dinner last week and
then New Jersey and I made alobster bisque. And honestly,
they're not a patch on aScottish lobster for for
anything. You know, for weightfor the amount of meat you get
in them for the shell. I justreally struggled getting the
same flavor from Maine lobstersas we do from a Scottish lobster

(07:49):
20 Michelin star restaurants inTokyo alone have Scottish
lobster on the menu.

That seems like a like a secret. Like I didn't
even really know that until Istarted digging into your book.

Unknown (08:00):
If you even look at the states, you know, if you Google
Scottish lobster menu, you knowNew York, you'll find all the
restaurants during Scottishspecial show, for instance, on
these three Michelin starrestaurants 11 Madison Park, for
instance, used to have ScottishScottish game and Scottish fish
and shellfish on the menus. Iknow they don't have any meat.

(08:23):
They don't have anything. Idon't think they've got Scottish
carrots.

I don't know who does the best carrots in the
world.

Unknown (08:31):
And I don't care, I don't know. Even looking at
vegetables and things like that.
So Scotland produces sweetpotatoes. And those sweet
potatoes are transported allover the world. And
fundamentally, if you're eatingpotatoes anywhere, probably with
the exception of Canada in theUS, you're eating the Scottish
potato or a Scottish potatovariety. Look at Angus beef. So

(08:54):
Angus beef is a word that's usedall over the US. Angus beef is a
Scottish breed. So Angus is anarea in Scotland, where Angus
beef comes from our Angus cowscome from? So that's that's what
we'll do over.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's something in the
back of my head. I probably knewat one time, but you just don't
think about it on a daily basishere.

Unknown (09:16):
Yeah. I remain people all the time, especially when
I'm you know,

I see, in my opinion, like some similarities
to Scottish cuisine with a lotof other, you know, UK, whether
it be Wales, England, like whatare the similarities? What are
the differences kind of in thecuisine there?

Unknown (09:34):
I think you'll find a lot of similarities in Scottish
food right across the northernhemisphere. I think, you know,
when I do demonstrations in NewYork or New Hampshire or, you
know, up in New England, Ialways get someone in the
audience going, Oh, my grandmaused to make that or my mum used
to make something very similar.
You know, you've got anythingalong that sort of parallel
really, you've got a lot ofScots that did I'm American

(09:58):
Canada, and brought bring a lotwith them. So if you're looking
at immigration, going back 400years, and that's influencing
Canadian food, American food,you know, and we're all using
the same ingredients as well.
That's the other thing. Youknow, what was available is all
of our classic dishes, no matterwhere you come from, comes from

(10:22):
what was available at the time.
What could that particular classof people afford? How did they
use up the bits that no onewanted? You know, for instance,
things like haggis, which isprobably our most famous food,

I would never heard of a.

Unknown (10:37):
So it's a Cana. You know, I think particularly
particularly in the States, Ithink most people get the
knowledge of haggis from TheSimpsons, or grant keeper Willie
occasionally mentioned that, butBut there'll be a hardest dish
in every culture, because haggisis basically using up the bits
that the well heeled didn'twant. So we just Honduras NT

(11:01):
something that managed in lessthan the length of time that it
has. Are you familiar withscrapple? Exact Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Everyone talks about scrapall time. Yeah,

we're in the land of scrapple here. So this is
very much a Maryland Delawarething. Your cookbook was
inspiring because you have somany interesting recipes using
haggis and similarly if I everhave a cookbook, mine is going
to have a whole scrapple chapterbecause it's one of those things
we eat it as a breakfast foodhere. But you don't see it in a
lot of dishes. So I'll put it ina dirty rice. You know,
traditional dirty rice wouldhave chicken livers I use

(11:36):
scrapple in there. I do a littlefried popper. So to see that you
had little haggis poppers thereI thought that was really
interesting. Like is that I knowover there you can buy it pre
made as the quality good like Ialways had in my mind, that was
something that you wouldeveryone would just like make
when they want it. I didn't eventhink about the fact you could
like go to the grocery store andhave one. Although it seems like

(11:56):
a tremendous amount of troubleto make.

Unknown (11:58):
To be honest, I am. I have very rarely made haggis
from scratch. And when I waswriting the recipe for the book.
I was writing the book for anNorth American market. Because
in Scotland, even the very bestchefs won't make haggis because
haggis is made by butchers. Sobutchers make haggis, not chefs,

(12:23):
some restaurants will makethings like venison haggis, when
they get in a whole fairness andand things like that. But the
haggis that you buy is, is thebest ever. It really is. It's

like making sausage. If I want sausage for
dinner tonight, I'm not probablygoing to make my own sausage,
like I have the culinaryfundamentals. But I'm just gonna
go to the store or the butchershop and buy it.

Unknown (12:44):
Yeah. And again, it's the butcher that's got the
skill. And I'm lucky I've got areally good friend who's a
butcher. And over the years whenI've wanted to learn something,
or wanted to do competition, soI do a lot. I do a lot of
competition work the studentsand I'm a culinary courts and
all that sort of stuff. And whenI want my students to stand out,

(13:05):
if they go in and make a bloodpudding, I don't want them
taking the blood put in and Iwant them to make it. And I want
my students to show the judgessomething they've never seen
before. So I would thenchallenge my friends like
pitchers and things like thatfor their end say and how I can
achieve that. And this is overthe course of 20 years when I've

(13:26):
learned to to make things likeblack pudding and things like
that tattie scones and all thesethings that ordinarily, people
wouldn't make, you know, tackscones is in the book. And it's
basically potato and flour. Andthat's a little bit of salt. But
we would never make it out ofschool. Because we can buy them
for $1. You know, for a pound wecan buy the best scones ever

(13:49):
like to write a book friend offthe American market that can't
access these fundamentals. I hadto learn them, which was quite
an interesting, interestingjourney for me.

So is this new book kind of I know you had a similar
named book come out over therelike a year ago is this that
book pretty much like reimaginedor tweaked a little for North
America is that essentially thesame book

Unknown (14:13):
is essentially the same book. It's got a slightly
different name, it's got adifferent cover. And I have
changed some of the names ofthings and change the haggis
recipe because you guys can'tuse lunch. So when I go to
America and get haggis, thepitchers over there, they don't
use lungs. They always put anextra lover which completely

(14:36):
changes it is not nice. It justdelivery and becomes too lovely
to Gainey and so I've replacedthat with I think there's an
option of ground checking orground port. And basically what
the what as you know as a cheflungs don't actually taste the
venison but they provide youknow they bring things together.

(14:57):
We got like an egg white. Iwould think you know when it's
done soiled and meant it's afiller, as opposed to something
that's going to flavor. And Iwas trying to think is something
how would background pork intheir work to create that film
that doesn't give you thatlovely taste. But the reality is
the goodness, I've got aScotland's publisher, but the
book was written for theAmerican market. So I spend most

(15:19):
well, a lot of my time in theUS. And I do demonstrations. And
my first book that came out wasa cookery course. So I wanted to
teach people to cook. So I hadeverything in there, I had, you
know, basic sauces, how to chopan onion, how to break down a
check in how to make beef gravy,how to make a curry, how to make

(15:39):
a result of properly, how tomake pastry and all these
fundamental skills that youwould have learned that skill.
That's what I wrote. And then Istarted traveling and going to
the States and I becameScotland's national chef. And I
had this book out, and everybodywas buying book Thinking, it was
Scottish, when other women comeup to me in New York and said, I
totally love your Scottishtelomere serve as the best I've

(16:02):
ever tasted. And had explainedto me was actually an Italian
tiramisu, it was just cookingfundamentals. So I cannot ever
it was called Kitchen essentialsthat and that was going back to
my kind of teaching my teachingdays of, and I just wanted to
get really good cookery course,for folks who probably wouldn't
cook much. So I felt like ohgod, North America, a book that

(16:26):
was Scottish. So I wrote thebook through lockdown. About
every Scottish cookbook I couldfind, and I wasn't overly
impressed with what I saw. Andthere was none that were really
written for a modern kitchen,there was none that were written
for, the way we bind shop, youknow, a lot of this stuff I used
in the book, a lot of a lot ofrecipes made the book because I

(16:49):
could buy the ingredients fromAmazon, you know, things like
blood pudding, you know, I couldbuy the skins, I could buy dried
blood, I could buy the littlegun that fishes the maximum of
the skins. And you know, sittingin front of my computer in the
spare room writing those books,and login into my Amazon account
to see if someone can buy theingredients that we need a

(17:11):
change that button. And anotherthing I wanted to do is, as an
educator, I write as I teachseparate loads of detail and
upper and loads of things thatyou know a little story about
how I used to do it, and itnever worked really well. And
this is how I do it now and thisis what I've learned. And it's a
kind of journey. But every everyrecipe has got a picture as

(17:32):
well, which I think's important.
And it's far more than kitchen.
So that was this sort of drivingforce. But again, it was very
much a straightener from, from apower house and the US and
Canada.

Well, I appreciate that. Because you know, as a
chef, I love to be, you know, Ilove to learn new recipes. I
love to be inspired. I buy a lotof international cookbooks. But
so often I will buy a book,let's say a Spanish cookbook.
And then I look at I'm like, Oh,that's interesting. Literally
half the ingredients I can't gethere like so at that point is
just inspiration, or I'm havingto, you know, figure out a way

(18:08):
to retrofit it with what I have.
So I have a book where you said,oh, yeah, I don't, I would have
put more liver in like with thehaggis. If I didn't know, I
would just look and say, I can'tget lungs as put more liver in.
So to have someone who'sactually said, like, no, don't
do that, here's what you'regoing to do instead.

Unknown (18:25):
But again, it was really, really pleasing for me
that an American note ofCanadian publisher Penguin, and
got a hold of the book andthought this is perfect for
North America. And when I wenton at a couple of publishers who
wanted to take on in the end,one in the US one in Canada, and
I was just so chuffed that thesaw what the book was all about,

(18:49):
and what the market for thatbook was, you know, so I think
within the book as well, there'sloads of beautiful photography
of Scotland. And again, it wasone of my one of my main sort of
pet ideas that we should beusing the glorious landscapes of
Scotland to share with a bookbecause I think it goes hand in

(19:09):
hand, you know, food andlandscape. Maker out meat, that
whole book.

It's absolutely beautiful. It makes me want to
move there. You know, youclearly enjoy teaching. Where
did that come from? Because, youknow, a lot of chefs in the
kitchen they, they mentor andthey teach but I do think that.
I don't want to say it's eithersomething you have or you don't
but not every person who's achef is necessarily a good
teacher. So where does that partcome from? Because you really

(19:39):
seem invested in wanting toteach, you know, you're talking
about working with youngchildren and just educating
people like me and my audience.
Where does that come from?

Unknown (19:47):
Yeah, I mean, my day jobs in education, so I'm
Executive Chef at the classicalCollege, and I've been I've been
at that college since 1988. So Iwas a student at that college.
And when I was at college, therewas no no full time no one went
full time everyone was linked tothe job. So I was part time I

(20:09):
used to do two nights a weekTwilight classes. And I did that
for three years. I graduated.
And then a year later, I wasasked to come back and cover a
class. So there was a lecture,who had had to go to the dentist
or wherever they had to do. AndI was asked, Would I come in and
cover this class on thisparticular Wednesday. So I was,
I mean, it was one of theproudest moments in my life that

(20:29):
I was asked to teach. So when,and I loved it, absolutely loved
it. And I actually covered thatclass for 15 years. So that
every single Wedensday for 13years at college, that's a long
fill in period there, I have no.
And I had loads of big massivejobs, I was running some of the

(20:49):
biggest food companies inScotland. And I used to go for
interviews for next job oranything like that. And you
know, the back they say, Haveyou any questions, and I say, I
don't have any questions, butI'd need to let you know that I
need every Wednesday off. So Iused to take every Wednesday off
from my job and work the weekendso that I could teach. And then
in 2010, I did the reverse, Iwent through 10 College and part

(21:14):
time industry. And I've reallybeen there ever since it's been
a massive, massive part of mycareer. It's been it's been
teaching and working ineducation. And I think I think
I'll be doing it till I retire.

I have a lot of people who I know listen to the
show who are on the younger end,maybe they're just starting
their culinary career. So whatwould you say to someone who is
maybe 18, just out of highschool or early 20s and wants to
maybe pursue a career incooking? Do you have any advice,
whether it be

Unknown (21:45):
where to start or just anything you have? I think the
first thing you do is get intouch with your local college,
you know, getting qualified,particularly in the US and
Canada. It's fatal, I think, youknow, because it's fairly
difficult to move up that careerladder without the paperwork.
And when you're younger, youdon't appreciate that you need

(22:06):
that. But if you can go tocollege, if you've got college,
definitely. The other thing isyou have to work in good places.
So pick up a gate book, and findthe best restaurant local to you
and ask for a job. And the otherthing is make sure you work for
nice people, you know, you'vegot to wake up in the morning,

(22:27):
and actually want to get outyour bed and go work in that
place. Because if you're in ajob that you don't like, or the
people are horrible, findanother one. Because there's
plenty of good kitchens outthere be nice people who will
look after you.

You've been in the industry long enough that I'm
sure you've seen a little shiftin that right kitchens were not
always the nicest, and they'renot always still the nicest
places to work.

Unknown (22:49):
I think there's a massive change, particularly
since COVID, I think the hourshave gone down, their money has
gone up. And I think conditionsand how people, how people look
after people makes a bigdifference. And the reason the
reason being, I think the nextgeneration coming through, are

(23:10):
brighter than I ever was,they'll get much more knowledge,
and they've got all theinformation at the fingertips,
you know, they've got a mobilephone. So if they're having a
bad day, they can, they can gofor the break, jump on the phone
and get another job. Whereaswhen I was younger, there was no
jobs. So if you'd manage to workin a great kitchen, you just
have to you just have to get ona bed, you know, and stick

(23:34):
around until you got it. Right.
So it's completely different.
It's a completely differentworld. And I think it certainly
changed for the better. And Ithink it's something I think all
chefs have to work towards, andmake sure that that next
generation know that this isactually an amazing career. You
know, it's not all just badhours and horrible people to

(23:55):
work for. It's, it's there'ssome great opportunities out
there. You know, and I know alot of chefs, I've got amazing
stories to tell of where thework and where they've been and
where they've traveled and, andthings like that, you know, it's
a fantastic career. And I'm justglad I found fit a young age,
and you

still do teach younger kids like through your,
like volunteer time how to cookor do some cooking

Unknown (24:22):
through my national chef role. Yeah, go into
everything from kindergarten toelementary to high schools, and
other colleges, and I do andpresence and, you know, whatever
this fit does me, you know, alot during that kind of
outreach. And I'm probably inabout four skills a month at the

(24:42):
minute. And it could be it couldbe a kindergarten where they've
converted a room into a bakeryfor little three, four and five
year old kids. So it's reallyinteresting how people are
engaging with we'd get someprimary skills and Scotland that
I can get and fantasies and andto kitchen you know because the,
the need for young people tolearn to cook is absolutely

(25:04):
vital. And I'm not teachingthem. I'm not teaching them to
be chefs and teach them to livewell. You know, it's, it's
teaching them a life skill thatactually means life. And a
Scotland we've got some of theworst health statistics
possible, you know, fromstrokes, diabetes to obesity,

(25:25):
Scotland has it all.

Why is that? Do you have any insight,

Unknown (25:29):
I like to think it's a lack of food education at a
young age. And I think there's alot of different factors, you
know, there's, you know, entersettings and poverty, so people
that are struggling, will go toconvenience foods a lot quicker
than they would go pick up somefresh food and cook. Again, it's

(25:50):
not just exclusively toScotland, but we, we seem to
home and a lot more, you know,the life expectancy of poor
people from inner cities, as youknow, like, like two thirds of
what it would be just a mile,you know, up the road, you know,
so it's, there's, there's a lotto do. And I think that if we

(26:13):
teach young people to cook, youknow, and it's a slow burn, and
this isn't just againstScotland, I think it's a whole
Western world. If we teach youngpeople to cook and understand
nutrition, and understandcookery process, I think their
health will be better in thelater years, which means there's
less of a burden on everythingelse is obviously in Scotland.

(26:37):
We pay for we pay for the SEC,everyone pays everyone puts in
for the NHS, so it's notinsurance, it's not self
provided. Anyone who's secondScotland gets looked after for
free because of the NHS and, andthe cost of the NHS and for
years just gone up and up and upand it's down to, you know, diet

(26:59):
and lifestyle. A lot of it is

my wife's a registered dietician. Now she
used to be a chef. So she kindof has combined her backgrounds
and she does a lot ofcombination. Yeah, yeah, she
went to culinary school with me.
She actually did her internshipin Wales for culinary school,
which is how we got this lovefor over being over there. She
worked at the Celtic Manor, andCarolyn showed that she got out

(27:22):
of college. So she went toJohnson and Wales University in
the US here in Providence. Andthen we have the opportunity to
go anywhere in the world tocook. And she wanted to go
overseas and just startedlooking at properties. So she
went on and did three monthsliving there and cooked and then
hadn't been back in 20 Somethingyear. So in October, we took I

(27:43):
have 11 year old twins. So thewhole family went over there.
And we made a trip across the UKgoing all through Wales and
England for a little over aweek.

Unknown (27:54):
I liked that part of the world. It's a hell of a
place to get it from Scotland. Idid. I did a charity dinner
encounter, just days before theCOVID thing. And my flights get
canceled, like hours before. SoI ended up having to drive to
Cardiff it took about nine hoursand then do a full 15 hour shift

(28:16):
dinner. That was my first timein college.

So looking at your MasterChef experience. Did you
ever dream of going on TV or aculinary competition? Like how
did that come about? I've had afew guests on the show who have
been on Master Chef both in theUS and in Canada. What was your
experience?

Unknown (28:38):
I absolutely love that.
And the reason the reason I didthat is because we use
MasterChef professionals as ateaching tool. So at the start
of our show, they bring in sixcompetitors one at a time. And
to do a little background onthem. You know, normally the
head chefs of Georgia andmansion theaters at restaurants

(29:00):
and all that sort of stuff. Sothey really pick up the chef's
and they do the hero shots andall that sort of stuff. And they
show them in the restaurantcooking their best plate of food
ever. So they look amazing.
Straight after the introduction,they build them into the
kitchen, the studio, and they dowhat's called the skills test.

(29:20):
And the skills test could besomething as simple as craps or
or fell out and fish orsomething basic task and nine
times out of 10 The Chef'sreally make a mess and so that
so the following morning afterthe shows the students will come
in the first year St. Joe's willcome in and go chef chef chef

(29:41):
Did you see so and so fromwhatever who couldn't, couldn't
born a check in and as lecturefor me it was a great tool to
say, Guys, this is why you'redevoting your time to learn
these fundamental thefoundations of cookery you know
us first years Can fellofficially component check in,

(30:01):
they can pull a saddle alarmover and all those sort of good
skills that a lot of chefs whodon't go to school, don't pick
up, you know, that just bypassesthem, whatever they, they just
don't know how to do it. So it'sa great tool for us. In
conjunction with that I was acollege, culinary coach. And we
started that I started the team.
And we won everything, you know,after, you know, I did it for

(30:23):
about six years before I didMaster Chef. And we won
everything. I think we won about20 UK titles and about five or
six international titles inIndia and America and places.
And so my students started toappreciate me saying, well put
your money where your mouth saysyou can coach us how it went?
Can you do it yourself? So Iapplied. And there's like a big

(30:45):
10 page application fivetelephone interviews, and amid
the omitted the screen test partof it. And then I had the most
amazing, have you ever. And Icame out in the former way
furnaces, I think I'm in haveterrified chicken, I think I'm
in because you you're applying,but you're kind of hoping you

(31:07):
don't get in. If that makessense. His is quite scary. And
then. So don't call us we'llcall you scenario. And they
never phoned me and I never getin. So I was absolutely livid
that I never again. So I appliedagain the following year, and I
went, I can now wear a badreflection I can I thought I

(31:27):
went too smart. I went too muchas a college lecturer. So I went
with Star Wars to be shot in atheater Daniels. And that the
worst interview ever. And I cameout in the fall and my wife and
I says look, I think and thensee if that couldn't have went
any worse. They're probablygoing to get Zen as one of the
as cannon fodder, so to speak asI thought it did, and never get
an ad. Again, I thought that wasenough for me. I just couldn't

(31:52):
handle that objection anymore.
And one of my students the thirdyear, he said, You're applying
again this year, Mrs. Nana, I'vehad I've not done it again.
Okay, take that objection. Andhe said, today's the last day of
applications. So I set thestudents off in a break, I went
to my office and I sent theprevious year's application. And

(32:13):
I changed the dates and got tothe screen test again. And I
went smart, casual, and grew abeard and go and so

keep track of a time's a charm is another the
expressions of the cooking like,it's very different. And I've
never been on TV but like havingthe lights the camera crew
they're filming, it's verydifferent than being in your
natural environment of akitchen. Like that's people say
to me all the time, you shouldgo on chopped or something like
that. I don't think I could dealwith the pressure or the anxiety

(32:45):
of that having them in my facehaving this very unnatural type
of environment just I think it'snot for everyone so I can
understand, obviously beingnervous and you know, maybe not
butchering the chicken so wellor laying a fish there. It's got
to be tough.

Unknown (33:03):
Yeah, no, and the way they set it up as well. You
know, it's the first time thatthe competitive see the see a
camera, it's first time to seethe present errs and they see
the studio and stuff like that.
But I was kind of lucky becauseobviously I had a whole load of
competition experience areunderstood. And obviously, when
you teach you understand timingsreally well, you understand
presentation and you understandkeep it neat and tidy, and all

(33:25):
those other kind of core skills.
And I also did a lot of TVprior, I've done I've done quite
a lot of TV, there was a therewas a Sean Glasgow, a live show
cooking kind of man magazineshow that and I think that about
50 times. And live TV, whenyou've got three segments of 50

(33:45):
seconds each takes a lot ofplanning a lot of time and as
well as performance. So I thinkbetween lecture and having that
little bit of TV experience, Ithink it really helped. So I
wasn't training the cameras,because they went live, you
know, I knew that Northern,there's 5 million people behind
that camera eventually. But theyweren't there at the time. You

(34:07):
know, and your phone went allday for an hour show. So you're
hoping that they're going to getyour best bets as well. But my
first TV experience was actuallyin the States. Then I did some
TV in in Chicago. What was thatabout 25 years ago, it was
breakfast TV WGN. So that was myfirst live cookie spot on TV.

(34:30):
And I was recently back on theshow, two or three months ago, I
was invited back on after 25years and nobody knew which was
quite strange. Simple as enter.
Which was pretty cool. I

guess it must be good job for them. If

Unknown (34:44):
they've been there that long. It must be it must be
Yeah, that's crazy.

I guess being on the show would lead to some
great opportunities that allowedyou to put Scottish cooking
front and center I mean all Onthe show, were you cooking all
Scottish type dishes or was theformat where you were doing
other things and being a littlemore experimental?

Unknown (35:08):
You know, it's funny, because when you get flung into
that vitamin, you know, Ithought before you can, and
probably most people think whenthey're watching MasterChef that
the person's cooking a dish,they've done 1000 times, and the
two weeks of practice, the showis day after day, after day,
after day in if you get throughone show, you get the challenge

(35:28):
for the next show. And I neverever considered myself as being
a Scottish chef. But when you'reunder immense pressure, you're
present from your repertoire andthe best things that you know,
you're privileged the thingsthat impress judges, and every
single dish out there wasScottish. And it wasn't until I

(35:49):
came away from it with, youknow, 30 dashes on the show, in
every single one of them wouldmake a Scottish you know, and
it's, you'd have them back toyour, I think, your primal
skills. So as it's kind ofweird. And I kind of said
towards the end to my othercompetitors, if I don't get a
job with this Scottish touristboard after this, you know, I've

(36:12):
messed up. And on the show, theshow's massive over I mean, it's
shown 100 countries andeverything else. And but it's
huge. And I got 7000 emails,7000 emails in one day. So woke
up the following morning, andeverything was broken, my phone
had, you know, millions ofmessages, everything else. And I

(36:37):
answered every email, I answeredevery WhatsApp message, I
answered every LinkedIn foreverything. And it took me three
months to find the email fromthe Scottish tourist board or
from their job. And Mr.

When was that? So?
Was that after you won that yougot all the message

Unknown (36:53):
at one? Yeah. Yeah.
Second, I think you've got Ithink, you know, a Scottish guy,
winning master chef was quite abig deal. But Scottish educator
and a Scottish teacher went inprofessional Master Chef, was a
major deal. And obviously, I'vebeen, you know, we've got X
Factor in, you know, Britain'sGot Talent and stuff like these

(37:15):
guys get Americans to that town,if there's ever any Scottish
folk on these types of shows,the whole country gets behind
them. So rather than, you know,if you're from dev, and everyone
from Devon support ship, or ifyou're from, you know, South
Wales, everyone can take thewheel supports up in Scotland,
everybody unites. And, you know,they get behind you. So it's an
incredible experience. Well, I'm

sure to the layperson, you know, it kind of
gets a bad rap cuisine wise, Ithink that generalization, both
of yours and British cuisine,it's like, it's kind of bland,
there's not a lot going on, youknow, I don't think a lot of
people have had experience withit. So to be able to kind of get
up there and show people thatyou've got some of the best
products in the world and somereally delicious recipes,

(38:01):
obviously, everyone's going towant you to be the
representative for the country'scuisine.

Unknown (38:06):
So I think there's a big, there's a big change in how
people think of food. And that'sfrom a chef's point of view, and
the general public's point ofview. I think people in the last
10 years have totally embracingtheir local in local ingredients
in local produce, but also thelocal traditions and, and family
recipes. And I see that all overthe place, wherever I travel,

(38:29):
whether it's, you know, in Asia,or Europe, or North America,
people are really embracingtheir own fit. You know, I
opened the Scottish restaurantin Glasgow. Again, it must have
been about 2020 odd years ago,and called the coffee. And I was
opening lots of restaurants atthe time. And I had NDN,

(38:50):
Italian, French pizza, pasture,marketplace, marketplaces,
American places, all sorts ofstuff. And I remember, I was
opening my seventh restaurant inthe same street, they're almost
next door to each other. And Iliterally ran out of ideas, I
ran out of what you do. And I'mthinking, what, what am I going
to do for the sake of my job tocome up with the concept? And I

(39:15):
thought, why don't we doScottish and Scotland and
Glasgow. And I remember going tothe owner with a with a round
table that we've been discussingdissect ideas. And I went to do
this, this idea of what theScottish restaurant in Scotland
is so unusual. I wanted to speakto the actual owner first,

(39:35):
before I pitched it, this crazyidea to the rest of the team.
And he loved the idea. And and Iremember the press and the
coverage that restaurant gotbecause you're the Scottish
restaurant in Glasgow was kindof revolutionary, even 20 odd
years ago. It's quiterevolutionary, you know,
ordinary Scottish restaurant inGlasgow and it sounds bizarre

(39:56):
now. And now in Glasgow, mostrestaurants are When were
Scottish elements, whether it'san Indian or an Indonesian, or,
or French, or whatever thatconcept has the core of the
Scotland the core of theScottish ingredients. And it's a
massive change. And I think it'sa huge change.

What cuisines Do you love? What are some of your
favorite besides traditionalScottish? Like, what do you
enjoy?

Unknown (40:22):
I think at home, and, you know, obviously, I've got
five kids, and they're all verydifferent. We're all get very
different tastes and things likethat. Asian foods good, and then
go to India quite a lot. So dolike, have you like Indian food?
In Scotland, people really likeIndian food. I suppose you've
traveled England as well.
There's a lot of Indianrestaurants, absolutely good

(40:42):
Indian restaurants. You know, Iquite like everything. And I do
like getting to these quartersof the states. I do like those.
You know, and in Maryland thatyou like to see fit checks, you
know, whether it's, you know,obese season and stuff like
that.

Everyone's got all their friends with all day
tattoos, you know, it's a way oflife out here.

Unknown (41:04):
I've got, I've got OB in my restaurant and Edinburgh,
I've got an OB Dash. And no oneknows what it is. I like the
smell it gives off a seafoodrestaurant. So I'm trying to
emulate those restaurants I'vebeen in and Morrow.

And with your recipes in your books, how do
you balance tradition with kindof innovation or contemporary
ideas like it's a fine balance,right?

Unknown (41:28):
Majority of its traditional written in a
contemporary way, I would saythat would probably be the vast
majority of those dishes are aredefinitely traditional. So if
you hand that book to an exparte Scottish person, and the
states, they would flick throughand recognize pretty much

(41:49):
everything that's in, well,good, I'm

gonna have to practice some of those recipes.
I have a person who's contactedme two years in a row to do
burns night dinner. And I'mlike, I don't know anything
about any of this. You have gotthe wrong guy here. I've not
attempted it. So maybe I takethe book, I practice some
things. And this year, I say,hey, you know what, once you
give me a shot, I'm gonna take astab at this.

Unknown (42:15):
I think I think what you'll find in the book is well,
that each dish has got a story.
You know, and a lot of thosedishes in that book, I've
actually served upon suppers andSt. Andrews nights in the US and
Canada. So there's a lot ofdishes there. So you know, it's
a it's a one stop shop for theperfect and one supper.

What is one message or hope you have that every
reader of your books orlisteners podcast takes away if
there's something that youreally want to drive home about
Scottish cooking? What wouldthat be?

Unknown (42:47):
I think the big thing when I write as I'm trying to
make it a user friendly book, soI want to see that but not on a
shelf or in a, you know, on a ona coffee table somewhere, it
needs to be in the kitchengetting covered in gunk, it
needs to be getting used. And,and don't be frightened to try
something new. And the otherthing is don't want to sound

(43:09):
like a boring old teacher. Butno matter what the book has,
whatever the recipe is, read thewhole recipe first before
attempt to sui know when it'sgone, where were the weather
direction as and, and you canplan ahead, there we go. I think
that would be a mad face. Butjust Yeah,

I made those mistakes in my early days, like
you just look and you start therecipe and don't realize that
it's like a three day somethinglike something's got to

Unknown (43:33):
moderation. And yeah, there's very few recipes in that
book that you can just pick upand get on with. And there's a
massive amount of recipes inthat book that are falling
obedience. You know, becausetraditionally, when we, you
know, all our ancestors, theydidn't cook for fun, they cook
because they they needed tolive, you know, and they didn't

(43:55):
have the same choices we havewith food. So they were cooking,
what was available. And a lot oftraditional recipes have very,
very few ingredients. Becauseit's about survival. It's not
about showing off to your spousefor dinner party or changing up
at the weekend. You know, theywere cooking to survive. And
that's what I love abouttraditional food from all over
the world. I think there's

been a resurgence in that. You know, I love that
so many more people areinterested in cooking and food
these days. But when I think ofthe past decade and a half of
all the cookbooks I've gottenand all the restaurants and
things, you know, I'll buy thesecookbooks and you look at these
recipes and there's like 80ingredients and all these
specialty things. And I think,oh this is interesting as a
coffee table book, but I'm notgonna pull it out on a Tuesday

(44:36):
night. I mean, I work I havekids, I want good solid food
that I can put on the tablequickly.

Unknown (44:42):
I think it's good. If you're a chef and you pick up
one of those books and you'relearning something and you're
taken, you know, one of myfavorite books in fact 11
Madison Park their booksstunning. And some of the you
know, the footage on the surfacelike all good food looks really
Simple. And then there's fourpages of recipes, that if I can

(45:03):
pick the things from the 20things that they're putting on
that plate and learn something,it's worthwhile for me,
particularly when I do dinnersat dinner parties and looking
for new ideas for restaurantsand things like that, you know,
it's certainly worthwhile. But Iwrite for the home cook, and I
never, ever forget that it's ahome, that's going to have to

(45:24):
find those ingredients and goshop. And, you know, remember my
first book. And when you writeyour first book, you've got 1000
ideas, because you've alreadygot 1000 recipes, because your,
your whole lifetime of ideas.
And that particular book I kindof liked. And I remember, right,
I've wrote the book. And then Iwent to do the photography,
which means that meant I had togo by the fit. And I'm looking

(45:46):
at a recipe and I'm looking atthe ingredients, and I'm going,
I can't be bothered by Nova,what am I gonna do with
ingredients, what we're going todo with this, what we're going
to do with that, and I justdidn't put it in the book, and I
put something, I just pickedsomething different that was
simpler and much more userfriendly. You know, it's got to
be, it's got to be userfriendly. And the pace of food

(46:08):
just now as well. I mean, I wasquite shocked. Last week, when I
was buying food, and New Jersey.
It's expensive, a lot. And it'swent up a lot in the last
certainly last few years since Iwas since back then,

I was just talking about this the other day on my
social media, short ribs, beefshort ribs, I think are up 23%
in cost since like January, itwas something like it was like
999 a pound and then it hit like1199 a pound. And I was like
1490. And that's from January.
And that's just like one item tohave a 23% you know, food cost
increases is crazy. And we'reseeing that scaled out across

(46:47):
the board, not just with food,but with you know, so much more
than that.

Unknown (46:52):
I mean, I bought a cucumber that was $3. Let's be a
really good cucumber. It wasn'tit? Actually, was it? I mean, in
Scotland, we'll probably payabout 75 Pence for cucumber $3
little tiny packet house $3.
Obviously, it was crazy. Soagain, I'm very conscious of
that, because I've got a familyof five. So feeding feed our fat

(47:13):
five kids. It's a no, it's noteasy. It's not easy feeding
everyone and having the time todo so. But that's what again,
that's what that picks up about.
I mean, the book is definitelyScottish. But the core of that
book is about family, familycooking. Well, I

think that's a great point that you went to
photograph the dishes. And itwasn't really until you got to
that point and said, I've got toget all this stuff. You know,
I've had to look at the samething with my personal chef
business because my menu changesliterally every day because I
cook for different people. And Itried to be fancy and this salad
has pecans. And this salad haswalnuts and this out as cashews,
and then spread out over thecourse of a week I was buying,

(47:53):
like hundreds of things for allthese dinners. And it's like,
no, I need to streamline this.
So the menu says nuts on thesalad. Right? Yeah, we're just
gonna go with what do I have onhand? This was something that
yeah, you know, says streamlinethe pantry, because having all
that stuff is just notrealistic. So,

Unknown (48:11):
and again, at the beginning of the book, I've got
a little note to say, just chillout, you know. So if the recipe
says a pound, a pound of groundbeef, and you've got a pound and
a half, don't separate the half,just get the whole lot and that
will make a difference.
Leftovers from cooking. You endup with something for lunch. And
it won't make a massivedifference to the recipe. The

(48:33):
only exception to that as as, asyou know is when you're doing
anything with flour and sugar.

You know, you can't just throw an extra quarter cup
of flour and make a pastryexpect it to come out. Right.
It's a

Unknown (48:46):
kind of formula that needs to be followed. So other
than that, everything that weshe can, you can subtract or add
ingredients that you like ordon't like. Definitely.

Do you have any final words or anything you want
to share with our listenersbefore we get out of here today?

Unknown (49:00):
No, it's just that it's just it's just good fun.
Hopefully, I'm in the States alot do an event. So look me up,
give me a shout. My next eventis in New Hampshire at the Loon
Mountain at the New HampshireHighland Games up in Lincoln,
New Hampshire. So hopefully,hopefully sees then and then I'm

(49:21):
back in November, during theWallace awards on Fifth Avenue
for the medical Scottishfoundation. So if you're, if
you've managed to get to that,it's good to see you. And I
might be doing some booksignings and things as well in
between. Very cool.

Well as always, I put everything in the show notes
so people will be able to findyou. They'll be able to check
out some of your videos.
Definitely pick up the cookbook.
So I appreciate having you onthe show today. It was really
great talking to you. Lovelytalking to you. Thank you. And
as always to our listeners. Thishas been Chris with the Chefs
Without Restaurants podcast.
Thanks so much and have a greatweek. You're still here. The
podcast is over. If you areindeed still here. Thanks for

(50:00):
taking the time to listen to theshow. I'd love to direct you to
one place and that's chefswithout restaurants.org. From
there, you'll be able to joinour email newsletter. Get
connected in our free Facebookgroup, and join our personal
chef catering and food truckdatabase so I can help get you
more job leads. And you'll alsofind a link to our sponsor page
where you'll find products andservices I love. You pay nothing

(50:21):
additional to use these links,but I may get a small commission
which helps keep the ChefsWithout Restaurants podcast and
organization running. You mighteven get a discount for using
some of these links. As always,you can reach out to me on
Instagram at Chefs WithoutRestaurants or send me an email
at chefs withoutrestaurants@gmail.com Thanks so
much

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