August 21, 2024 • 47 mins
2024 1044 In our final discussion about Earnie Larsen's Book and the program “Stage II Recovery: Life Beyond Addiction”, Pamela and Curt return talk about creating and working an effective program that is concrete, practical, focused, and consistent to move past the habits or behavioral patterns which stand in the way of the relationships and life we would like to have going forward.
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Thanks for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic. And I'm Rusty and I'm
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an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos. Today we're going to continue our
journey through Ernie Larson's book Stage 2 Recovery Life Beyond Addiction
and I'm going to provide a little recap of where we've been to get to this point
and then Rusty is going to take over on where we're going today. So we started
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off with our introduction about Stage 1 Recovery Breaking the Primary Addiction
which is getting sober and we had indicated that abstinence from a mood
altering chemical or specific behavior is still just abstinence. And that Stage
2 Recovery is not for people who think they've outgrown the 12 steps because
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it's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps. But as the program teaches the
steps can only take us as far as we allow them to take us. Then when we define
recovery we also define what the problem or issue is, what needs to be done about
that problem or issue, and what our program is for. Your program cannot take
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you further than your own definition of recovery. Since few people define
recovery for themselves in any specific meaningful manner they have not clearly
defined what the central problem or issue is in their lives and they don't
have a good idea of where their program is supposed to take them. Stage 2
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Recovery is the rebuilding of a life that has been saved in Stage 1. We talked
about self-defeating learned behaviors. Self-defeating learned behaviors are
what get in the way of our rebuilding the life that was saved. Types of
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self-defeating learned behaviors are caretakers. Caretakers don't just care
for others they breed dependency. Caretakers have learned to base their
self-image on how much they can do for other people. Then there's the people
pleaser and they have learned self-esteem is based on never making
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anyone angry. We have the martyrs. Martyrs have learned that life only has meaning
when there's plenty of suffering going on. They find ways to make sure that
things don't get too good and if their relationships seem to be rolling along
peacefully they find some way to de-grail the terrain. Then there is the
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workaholic. These are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on
activity. Workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax. Then there are the
perfectionists. Since nothing on earth can ever be perfect, perfectionists can
never be happy or satisfied. The base of their self-esteem is simply
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unattainable. And finally we have the tap dancer. Tap dancers base their
self-esteem on staying loose. They've learned to never make a full commitment.
Stage two recovery begins not just when you're standing at the starting line but
when you've actually begun the race by beginning to deal with the underlying
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issues. In our second episode we spoke of habits. Most aspects of our life are the
result of habits. And since habits are rooted in our subconscious they're
always active whether we're aware of them or not. There are principles related
to habits. As much as 98% of what we do is a result of habit not choice. Acting
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out habits is not a matter of choice because habits operate outside the
conscious mind where choices are made. Whatever we do consistently will become
a habit. What we practice we become and what we practice we become good at.
Habits are living things. Whatever is alive will fight to the death to stay
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alive. And frustration is always relative to expectations. The three roles of
habits are this. Our habits act as our reality thermostats ensuring that our
environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act exactly the way we
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see ourselves. The second function of habits has to do with our feelings. The
important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards. They only know what
was thus feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life or behavior. To be
guaranteed to be stuck in the past we think then feel and then act versus the
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process necessary for recovery which is where we think and then act and then
feel. Habits help us define what is normal for us. They determine how we view
interpret and evaluate our reality. If we are not on guard when new data
conflicts with old habits we tend to opt for one of three outs. We invalidate the
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new information, we invalidate the source, or we remove ourselves from the source
of the conflicting data. And in our third episode we spoke of the fact that stage
one recovery is certainly all about change. Recovery means that things have
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to be very different than they were. The changes required in stage two recovery
are equally dramatic in that we move from finding fault with ourselves to
become willing to take responsibility for our own consequences. Change takes
place in three sequential steps conversion, decision, and action. In
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conversion we do not change until we have some kind of awakening to the fact
that we're going to lose something we're not prepared to live without if we do
not change. Conversion experiences are spiritual realities not rooted in reason.
Conversion requires change rather than changes. Changes are doing the same thing
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in a different way and change means doing something completely different.
Conversion is the realization that we cannot change another person and
conversion is indicative of the realm harm enablers do by shielding others
from the consequences of the individuals irresponsible behaviors. And the last
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principle of the conversion experience requires that we acknowledge that while
we are ready to change not everyone or even anyone in our family system may be
ready to change as well. Decision is the second step of change. A conversion
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experience not followed by a decision is a wasted miracle. The decision must be
yours. Nobody can make a decision for you. With every decision to say yes is
also a decision to say no. And finally we need to keep our eyes on the goal of
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change and celebrate our successes no matter how small they may be. With that
today we are going to be moving into the topic of working a program and Rusty I'm
going to turn it over to you my friend. Okay thanks. In conjunction with what Tim
had just got through reading one of the things that Ernie Larson talks about in
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the decision process is that a decision involves our willingness to do what it
takes not just do something to change and that's where a lot of people falter. I
mean we've all done that we've all got gone through the deal and and worked
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right up to that thing where we're going to change and then all of a sudden that
guardian pulls us back still that's why it's so important that repetition with
this is so important for all of us because habits die hard just as he said.
That's why we have to have a hundred percent commitment. Thank you yes
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absolutely you've got to be committed a hundred percent if you expect to get rid
of that self-defeating behavior that you that is taking you down a path that in
the beginning helped you but now has turned against you. So with that let's
talk about working a program. There are four characteristics of working an
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effective program. First is concrete then comes practical and then focused and then
lastly but not in any way less important is consistency. You've got to be
consistent and there again that's where people tend to start to drop off right.
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I'm going to read here just a bit from from stage two it says a program that is
vague and nebulous isn't going to get you very far. You have to nail it down.
Why? Let's say that you are just starting out in a typing class right now you
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don't know how to type you don't have that skill. Suppose the teacher comes in
and says what do you want to do tonight? Shall we play cards or do you want to
talk about the ballgame? Are you going to advance your typing skills in that
class? Obviously not but suppose the teacher says turn to page six start
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practicing the sentences there and I'll circulate around the room to see how
you're doing. Will that approach advance your typing skills? Most certainly. So we
got to get that down in the beginning. We've got to be concrete in what we're
going to be working with. Another little thing that he says here that I thought
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would be important was we don't change from unskilled to skilled by fooling
around. We form all new behavioral patterns by repeated action. Practical
and concrete acts practice faithfully nail down the new tracks that lead in
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the new direction. I love the way that that Ernie writes. The simplicity is
right there. He doesn't put any big words in there other than nebulous maybe. He
did but other than that he just he just lays it out there for you. I just want to
say that this is a proper plan. It's not just a wish or a direction to go. It's a
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proper plan that's going to be effective. Okay tell me what proper plan means to
you. Whatever it takes to get the job done. Okay. And the actions that it's
going to take to to get the result that I want. That's where it gets difficult
for people right? Right because we search and search for a way to do things and we
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go down a lot of rabbit holes and and get off the path and that's why the 12
steps gives us a specific direction and the stage two recovery developing that
proper plan that we're that we're talking about today. As you get to this
point in the in the program the guardian will push you off a lot and as it says
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your habits die hard so you know I mean whatever it takes in this war on that
side is coming too so it does take everything that you you got to begin and
and God's helped to see things differently. This literally is when the
rubber hits the road is when you're either going to do this now or you're not
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but it's life-changing that's that's the wonderful thing about it. The benefits
on the other side are unsurmountable. The next part of the the effective
program that he talks about is to be focused and that goes right along with
concrete and practical. He says that over the years I have worked with hundreds
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and hundreds of people who thought they were working a good program but if you
ask them exactly what they were trying to change they didn't know. The specific
habit behavior and feeling needs to be identified. What are you focusing on? What
is it that you want to change? If you can't answer that question your program
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can't be very useful as a means of change. This is where the the writing
comes in that we're going to talk about here in a little bit. For me when I write
stuff out the magic happens because I'm looking back at it's like the fourth or
four-step you know once I get it out there for me it becomes real and I go
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back and I look at it again and again. That helps me tremendously. Does it you
guys? Oh yeah absolutely. It does help you focus and when I'm writing I
think a little bit deeper and I think because my thoughts are slowed down a
bit and I can concentrate on what I'm doing. Well I know that for me there has
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been a lot of denial and so I'm not sure that from moving from vague to focus
there's a lot to take on there. When I do and normally when I do have some kind
of breakthrough it's just much easier. It's almost seeing it can take a lot of
that power out of it. Right. He goes on to say here the specific habit behavior
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and feeling needs to be identified. What are you focusing on? What is exactly is
it that you want to change? If you can't answer that question your program can't
be very useful as a means of change. He puts it out there so simply that the
only way that you won't get there is it if you don't do these things. If you want
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to take shortcuts. The next one is consistency. Pam would you read this
first part? An effective program also has to be consistent. Since habits are formed
by repeated actions we need to continue the new behavior until it becomes strong
enough to have a life of its own. Practiced consistency that new habit will
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become who we are. Practiced inconsistency it won't change it won't
have a chance. You want to comment? This is one one place that I can use one of my
character defects of stubbornness to turn it into persistence. That's great.
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That's great. One of the lines that that I like is since habits are formed by
repeated actions we need to continue the new behavior until it becomes strong
enough to have a life of its own. And because if we don't the habit that we're
trying to get rid of has had a life of its own a long time and it is well
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entrenched in us. Whatever that habit is it is well defended right? Yep. That's
what he's talks about earlier. If I'm going to change that I have to be very
focused on staying with what I'm supposed to be doing on a daily basis on
that habit in the change part. And by doing that I'm being consistent. Now that
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sounds maybe simple but believe me you guys know this you've done this. It's not
simple. No. It takes work. Just like everything he says we we need to be
committed. Concrete, practical, focused, and consistent. Those are the
characteristics of that program that can take us somewhere that we want to go. Now
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we're at a point of putting the program together so we're taking all the
information that we've gathered so far which is a lot. It's a lot to take in. You
know that in stage two recovery when we spent eight or nine weeks pretty
intensely I would say for a couple of hours a night so you got to become aware
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of some of your self-defeating behaviors and then some of them you didn't even I
think recognize when we first started but before it was over
it started becoming glaring at you for some of us. For some of us it did. Do you
remember one that you hadn't really realized it but you when you started
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seeing it and someone else that it started coming into your consciousness
or did you did you really know every one that you wanted to change? I didn't know
a lot of them. Would you give me one that you think became pretty glaring for you?
This program has continued to bring this up since since I did the program but I
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was aware of people pleasing and that kind of thing. I wasn't aware that I was
a big a martyr as I am. Part of that, what I'm finding is that the
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four or five glaring ones that I have I've taken bits and pieces from all of
them I threw them together and came up with my own salad and so it's not just
like that. This is a pure thing. One of them leads to another and
then when I go into the people pleasing or then I'll start enabling then I'll
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get confused then I'll hate myself and kick my butt. All of this seems to
run its way through every single one that I run into is just which one did I
kick it off with. I almost view it as a blanket. It's like these all of these
individual issues almost got laid down at the same time where I've used them
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so much that they seem like they run together because it'll take me into
victim, it'll take me into self-pity, you know all of this all this stuff and so
that's where I've stayed vague. I think my little system doesn't want to face
any of this stuff. So your guardian is still alive? Alive in certain things.
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Yeah. Is it because you're still getting a payoff I mean Kurt from some of them
or is it habit again? No well it's habit and I think there's yeah I think there
has been a payoff in me being terminally unique. I'm not like all you other guys
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and what I'm finding now as I've gone on and on in the program is you know what
I face most everybody else's is facing and you know so I don't get to be unique
that way and not only that the stuff that I'm doing now is really irritating
some other people and for myself getting to a place where I'll do anything to get
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rid of these things because now I can see I'm just walking around doing those
things. That's great so now you're at a point with some of those that you've
actually hit the wall with it. Yeah. So that's going to change. Yeah. Especially
when it's affecting my job or my my relationship with at home or any of that
really gets crucial for me. And that's exactly right. Affected my job which
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affected the family. It goes on and on like that and then I go well it's not
just it's not just the job and you know a lot of that stuff that kicked it off
was I didn't feel real good. I was the one that was the professional. I
knew all about these things and yet I don't do it like everybody else because I
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am a professional and those kind of thoughts give me in trouble. I don't know
it's been it's been a whole mess of stuff. Thank you. Pam anything? You know
Kurt talked about the mixed-up salad. I see sometimes that I've not been able to
recognize one of these problems because like for example my egotism overshadowed
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everything and I didn't notice my people pleasing and because I didn't think
egotists were people pleasers but I found out this part of that inferiority
complex that I was overcoming or trying to overcome that it gets all mixed up
and it's like a that blanket's a big old patchwork quilt and all these different
sections in it so when I'm when I'm trying to sort something out the opposite
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is there so I don't really see it or it comes across in a different way like
worry comes across as well I'm just concerned but actually it's it's fear of
what might happen in the future it's worrying so and so they pop up in it
that guardian has a different way of using a different terminology or a
different little slightly different feeling but for the same old thing well
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I love that the guardian does that the ego it wants its way it does it wants
its way putting a program together he said that there's several things within
that and worry is probably the the big one or it's very important it is the
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worry is a technique that's been used over many years to implement an attitude
that says no matter how hard you work or how well you do the payoff is always
going to be unfair and unjust worry is my way of saying amen or so be it to
that bottom line view of reality in other words it keeps him there again from
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achieving what he's trying to achieve here that worry puts me on most of the
time puts me into a victim role just for and it's so subtle it's so under the
radar that we're already there before we even realize it and then the other one
which I love is projection that's another character defect that I have to
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watch I tend to think that things really really be good if this would happen or
when so-and-so happens you know it's always in the future if this happens
that I'm going to be okay I'm projecting all the time into the future and what
I'm doing when I'm doing that is that I'm already screwing up something that
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that I don't even know is going to happen for one thing but I'm messing up
tomorrow these are what the guardian thought was our protection mechanisms
that's right you know and almost view it as a backdrop explain that to me well
I'm gonna practice all these things because I keep them active with these
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two things a worry or projection you know we were living in tomorrow or
messing up today that's right and that that worry thing you know the last time
around I was overcoming worry with projection wow and I overcame the worry
with projection and then found out my projection wasn't right it just you know
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so they they end up causing more harm yeah and it boils down to me with
staying special you don't have to do things the way that others do it or
there's a lot of that is I do things better than everybody else yeah yeah
I've got that same problem and then I know then you know and you know that
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then I know yeah and I find out huh I can't identify at all no I really can
and projection is keeps me from living today yes yes well this next one and boy
am I guilty here he says I also have to monitor workaholism it's not so much
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what much that I work too many hours but rather that I have learned to get most
of my feelings of self-worth by getting results on my projects now there I am
that is me to a tee and others that I know right I see you looking in my
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direction yes results are key yeah so I when I get in the middle of this though
I get mixed up so I know that I'm in trouble with this because my guardian
wants to say well rusty you just love what you do and I do love what I do but
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at the same time am I spending enough time doing other things you know with my
wife with my grandkids with you know all of that comes in but I my self-worth I
get a lot of my self-worth from being doing what I do that's why it's hard
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sometimes when people we retire from their career their profession that it's
it's difficult for them to adapt yes it is it is difficult you know when people
say retirement to me it's just like that's a naughty word it says here
workaholics are people who need to have their work decide whether or not they're
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going to be happy pretty strong that's pretty strong and I for me I think it's
true yeah you know as much as I hate to say that yeah well and to there I think
there's a distinction you know can I love something that I really like to do
mm-hmm and not become obsessed about it because once I become somewhat obsessed
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it's done and I'm gonna lose it's the way it is and I've had four major
obsessions and each one of them has really hurt over my life you know right
and so whether whatever it's work or yeah yeah a relation a particular
relationship yeah you know if it's special then I'm special and all that
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works together yeah and then I'm not a man of session and you know it never
ends well hmm I mean it never had one yes that word never ends well for me
yeah in fact a lot of the humiliation we talk about rather than humbleness is
this comes from those yes and it's me fighting against an obsession that's
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just bigger than me and I'm using old tools and they don't work one last thing
on on this it says the last trait that he keeps track of every day is my
difficulty accepting good things from others I don't have a hard time doing
good things for others or being readily available when they need me he goes on
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to say but I do have a hard time accepting what others give me and of
course that is another way of saying that I don't want to receive I want to
be in control is that subtle or what yes I recognize that one very much so yeah
I do and I think it's related to the stoicism I'm afraid to let someone else
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in and therefore if I allow you to give to or for me rather than me giving to or
for you mm-hmm you're gonna get inside and I don't want you there because I
want control and you know I have we all have a friend that you know if he sees
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he he doesn't perceive that I'm having a really great day whether it be because
of health or whatever he'll just simply say you know I'm here if you want to
talk and he doesn't press it any more than that and you know with that I can
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still be in control because I can make the decision to have that conversation
or not it's not that it's almost non-threatening in it it's almost
non-threatening but it helps me stay in that behavior though well yeah that's
what I mean it's non-threatening it right yeah that's good but but the fact
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that perhaps it's the fact that rather than saying I want to go and have a talk
with you instead of you know I'm here if you want to talk would take away that
control and cause us to open up a little bit whereas I'm here if you want to talk
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allows me the out you know sure you're not sure to not open up yeah which
sometimes is probably sometimes is what needs to happen
that's really exciting thanks I got a lot out of that one well I see this topic a
little differently I maybe it's the Alan on view but I came I come from a family
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of people who are from poverty and so the feeling of being less than means
that I'm not worthy of receiving what you have to give me and so I'm willing
to give you know what I can and but it's a one-way street but I'm not I'm not
able to receive because I'm just not I'm just not worthy and that you know the
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control to me could be even in that mm-hmm I think what what Pamela just said
mm-hmm goes into what I was talking about exactly I'm not gonna let you in
because I don't think I'm worthy of your time and but the form is control
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that's the process that you go through to get that yes is that true
vulnerability is a big part of it yeah vulnerability control or the lack of
vulnerability right is that what you're saying the lack of vulnerability I'm not
sure anymore no lack of vulnerability goes along with the stoicism mm-hmm yeah
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lack of lack of yes yes well see and and I guess I also too because it says
Ernie Larson says givers crave control well I was craved control as not as a
giver but as as a protector of what I have and so that's just the opposite of
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a giver it's a keeper and so it's a different look at these words and these
feelings and these motives so I like it that's good mm-hmm he goes on here and
I'm going to stop for a minute guys and look at this page on 68 where he he
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shows us a program planner which I think is great he starts out the day with a
daily reading or input and he has your sponsor on there and in the group and an
evaluation prayer meditation health care and celebration and then on the list he
has those habits that you're wanting to change and I think if folks would have
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this worksheet and actually work it it would be amazing for you along with that
I've got some that I've blown up and have used so these are tools to apply
yeah he also goes on and talks about the daily reading you know like you did the
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input and he says as you do your daily reading focus the input on the patterns
or habits that cause you trouble no matter how unreal or uncomfortable it
may feel to be thinking those new thoughts concrete and practical write it
down and do it and then also he talks about your sponsor or your mentor if
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you're not you know in a 12-step program you know who is your sponsor who is your
mentor we all have to have that we have to be accountable to someone if I'm going
to to be able to change and I like in the program that I get to know a lot of
different people who've had a lot of different experiences so that if I'm
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having a particular experience then I can go and pick their brains and talk
to them and get some input from them about what I'm going through because one
person one sponsor may not have had the experiences that I'm having and I just
like knowing a lot of a lot of different people and also for example since my
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husband passed away I've developed a lot of friendships with other women in the
program who's have lost their husbands and being able to share on the same
level and being able to identify with that in our lives has just been very
helpful. Yeah I can see where it would I've used I have that myself Pam it pays
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off my belief system is if a person has trauma they need to be seeing a
therapist the 12 steps are wonderful and I live them myself but they're you know
how could you expect a sponsor to know about incest or sexual abuse or that's
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when you need professional help is when you have when you have some real trauma
and many many many of us have had trauma that have a really deeply affected our
life and that's nothing against AA I mean or 12 the 12 steps but for me that
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needs to be noted when we're going through this because you know Ernie
goes on talks about the group and and then the evaluation at the bottom and
and then lastly prayer and meditation and then lastly your health care so all
of that to go into that would take us I don't know how many podcasts but this is
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the heart of the program and I think too for me under prayer and meditation is
journaling writing it down I write letters to God I write letters to myself
I write letters to my emotions just to get it out on paper and help become more
aware and examine things for that evaluation mm-hmm now at the at the back
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on page 79 he talks about relationships he goes through there and he gives you
habits to be changed on each real on different types of relationships gives
you all kinds of information and there again this would be something that we
could spend probably three or four segments on but we wanted to cover the
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book Tim do you have any other thing that you want us to cover just one thing
rusty on the relationships and I think it it almost closes out this whole topic
mm-hmm he says that nothing is more central to stage two recovery than
increasing our ability to function in loving rewarding relationships and that
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is what we're trying to the life we are trying to rebuild after we have become
abstinent in whatever our addiction is or our behavior is that we need to change
we are rebuilding the relationships in our lives you're right on and one thing
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that I might mention for everyone listening is that you know Ernie
Larson has another little book stage two relationships down the road we may move
we may do that one of the things that I might mention under this relationships
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is I've always talked about the caretaker and I've always been a caretaker
I've been I'm the oldest of six I took care of my parents I've took care of my
brother not only was financial power of attorney for them but helping them with
their health care and but caretaker for me is is the negative part is the I take
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over and that's a controller coming out and what I've learned to do is change
that into a caregiver where I'm supporting them and the best example is
my stepdaughter just recently asked me to help her walk through her being a
caregiver by helping her elderly sister-in-law get into a nursing
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facility and to watch her because I've supported her through through so many
things in her life recently and to watch her pass that on it's just been
wonderful to see how she supports in fact she probably does a little bit
better than I do because I still want to take over sometimes I have to watch that
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but becoming a caregiver instead of a caretaker yeah that's really enlightening
thanks thanks a lot then I have trouble trying to figure out where is one start
the other that's right and that's what I have to do it takes me a lot of prayer
meditation and talking to my sponsor about how much do I help and how do I
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help to make it sure that it's really helpful and not controlling and so that
I'm not enabling the situation to continue to actually be of some service
to others so it's an ongoing process it is and that's what he talks about you
know you've got to be vigilant with some of these things of the ones that that
(40:32):
Ernie mentions in here tap dancer perfectionist workaholic all three of
those are me and the only one that I have really gotten past and really dealt
with it is is the tap dancer because it's the one that caused me the most
pain if anything will motivate me it's that type of pain when I married Julie
(40:59):
and you guys have heard me talk about this before said that I was going to be
monotonous in a relationship and a loving relationship and I for the last
25 years I've done that I tell you nothing has lifted my self-worth like
that has because not only did it cause me pain I caused a lot of pain to other
(41:22):
people the workaholism I get in the middle of it and I guess I'm still to be
honest with you I get confused maybe that's just the Guardian working on me I
you know I know that the stuff that I do I love doing and then with the
perfectionism I'm totally aware of that and have come a long way I don't know
(41:46):
that I'll ever be totally rid of that perfectionism or whether I want to be
because there's things I like about myself that that I do do you have any
that you want to comment on Kurt that you've worked on you know I guess I've
done these a little bit at a time because I am kind of perfectionist II I
(42:06):
wanted to fix it all by Thursday and so I wanted to get them all out there and
get to work on them and I've had to do them as they come up and if I haven't
gotten to the place where I've hit the wall I haven't worried about it too much
and I worked on it so hard when I got here I finally took all my books and set
them aside and said God you're gonna have to teach me something here because
(42:29):
this is no way to live but I had gone that far with my books and trying to
make myself better and you know and what was driving me was I knew I was insane I
didn't know what the heck to do with that so it might have been a little bit
a little bit different all of it I had something here that you guys were
talking about when you know can't accept things from other people but accepting
(42:54):
good things from others in the middle of these called obsessions I don't want
your help you don't want my help I do not want anybody's help this is my
obsession I will make I will work it out I'll make it happen I'm totally
self-sufficient do not need you that's control I suppose but it's that you
(43:19):
might you might yeah I mean how can I yeah well let's just quit right there
because yeah because I'm not gonna go any further is just right there and
alive and well yeah of course we all know that there's a fear behind that yeah
till you till you're ready to do something well and the good thing about
this program I've been asked to do things over and over again that I am not
(43:42):
equipped to do and I've had to ask God for help to do those things I don't know
how to do most of this stuff you know and it's embarrassing but I do but I
feel like it's a C grade I don't grade myself on that I shouldn't be grading
myself at all but and so then that kicks in the other thing the poor selfie
(44:04):
images yeah Tim anything that you have that you want to comment it I think
perfect you know I am perfect in all my little ways in my mind I think the one
thing that is sticking out to me at the moment is the consistency we have to
(44:27):
consistently be aware of our actions and our self-defeating behaviors and
consistently trying to move past those items into the place we want to be
because if we don't make the change we're not going to get our desired
(44:47):
result the last thing I would like to say is I believe this morning we failed
to introduce our guests Pamela and Kurt today and both Rusty and I are very
appreciative of you being here with us for four episodes to talk about this one
(45:08):
topic which is a four episode topic but being willing to be open and honest
about these things that go through our minds in stage two recovery and you know
we've we've gone through stage two recovery together as part of a group and
(45:31):
you know I think part of the consistency is that I attend a meeting related to my
primary addiction every single morning of the week and in order to be consistent
in a process sometimes we need to be reminded of what the process is and so
(45:53):
perhaps doing a stage two recovery program again with other individuals
will help us to reinforce and reevaluate the changes that we have made and still
need to make in living a happier and more meaningful life well I'm already
(46:15):
realizing that from our sessions that there's more I want to dig in and delve
into and and realizing that I've you know I've gotten into some areas that
have not been in before like martyrdom and tap dancing and stuff so that's
that's new for me and so and recently I I learned about feeling some trauma in my
(46:37):
life which you know in the past decades I haven't done that so there's always
something new and something broader to see and and today and I'm looking
forward to doing this again and enjoying it even more yeah I want to thank both
you guys for being here and doing this with us of course you know what they I
(47:01):
love you both immensely and every time I go through this I learned something new
that's it's just amazing to me that that the awareness comes if we're if we're
looking for it we'll get the awareness so and I hope everyone out there has
enjoyed this as much as I have and we'll be seeing you soon this has been a
(47:26):
production of children of chaos net children of a chaos as a forum to
discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America is
not affiliated with endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program
organization or institution any views thoughts or opinions expressed by an
(47:46):
individual in this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect
the views policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or
organization
Thanks for joining us today. I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic. And I'm Rusty and I'm
(00:05):
an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos. Today we're going to continue our
journey through Ernie Larson's book Stage 2 Recovery Life Beyond Addiction
and I'm going to provide a little recap of where we've been to get to this point
and then Rusty is going to take over on where we're going today. So we started
(00:26):
off with our introduction about Stage 1 Recovery Breaking the Primary Addiction
which is getting sober and we had indicated that abstinence from a mood
altering chemical or specific behavior is still just abstinence. And that Stage
2 Recovery is not for people who think they've outgrown the 12 steps because
(00:51):
it's not possible to outgrow the 12 steps. But as the program teaches the
steps can only take us as far as we allow them to take us. Then when we define
recovery we also define what the problem or issue is, what needs to be done about
that problem or issue, and what our program is for. Your program cannot take
(01:16):
you further than your own definition of recovery. Since few people define
recovery for themselves in any specific meaningful manner they have not clearly
defined what the central problem or issue is in their lives and they don't
have a good idea of where their program is supposed to take them. Stage 2
(01:38):
Recovery is the rebuilding of a life that has been saved in Stage 1. We talked
about self-defeating learned behaviors. Self-defeating learned behaviors are
what get in the way of our rebuilding the life that was saved. Types of
(01:58):
self-defeating learned behaviors are caretakers. Caretakers don't just care
for others they breed dependency. Caretakers have learned to base their
self-image on how much they can do for other people. Then there's the people
pleaser and they have learned self-esteem is based on never making
(02:21):
anyone angry. We have the martyrs. Martyrs have learned that life only has meaning
when there's plenty of suffering going on. They find ways to make sure that
things don't get too good and if their relationships seem to be rolling along
peacefully they find some way to de-grail the terrain. Then there is the
(02:43):
workaholic. These are people who have learned to base their self-esteem on
activity. Workaholics find it extremely difficult to relax. Then there are the
perfectionists. Since nothing on earth can ever be perfect, perfectionists can
never be happy or satisfied. The base of their self-esteem is simply
(03:06):
unattainable. And finally we have the tap dancer. Tap dancers base their
self-esteem on staying loose. They've learned to never make a full commitment.
Stage two recovery begins not just when you're standing at the starting line but
when you've actually begun the race by beginning to deal with the underlying
(03:28):
issues. In our second episode we spoke of habits. Most aspects of our life are the
result of habits. And since habits are rooted in our subconscious they're
always active whether we're aware of them or not. There are principles related
to habits. As much as 98% of what we do is a result of habit not choice. Acting
(03:53):
out habits is not a matter of choice because habits operate outside the
conscious mind where choices are made. Whatever we do consistently will become
a habit. What we practice we become and what we practice we become good at.
Habits are living things. Whatever is alive will fight to the death to stay
(04:16):
alive. And frustration is always relative to expectations. The three roles of
habits are this. Our habits act as our reality thermostats ensuring that our
environment stays comfortable by compelling us to act exactly the way we
(04:36):
see ourselves. The second function of habits has to do with our feelings. The
important thing to know is that feelings only face backwards. They only know what
was thus feelings cannot be our guide to a new way of life or behavior. To be
guaranteed to be stuck in the past we think then feel and then act versus the
(05:02):
process necessary for recovery which is where we think and then act and then
feel. Habits help us define what is normal for us. They determine how we view
interpret and evaluate our reality. If we are not on guard when new data
conflicts with old habits we tend to opt for one of three outs. We invalidate the
(05:29):
new information, we invalidate the source, or we remove ourselves from the source
of the conflicting data. And in our third episode we spoke of the fact that stage
one recovery is certainly all about change. Recovery means that things have
(05:49):
to be very different than they were. The changes required in stage two recovery
are equally dramatic in that we move from finding fault with ourselves to
become willing to take responsibility for our own consequences. Change takes
place in three sequential steps conversion, decision, and action. In
(06:14):
conversion we do not change until we have some kind of awakening to the fact
that we're going to lose something we're not prepared to live without if we do
not change. Conversion experiences are spiritual realities not rooted in reason.
Conversion requires change rather than changes. Changes are doing the same thing
(06:41):
in a different way and change means doing something completely different.
Conversion is the realization that we cannot change another person and
conversion is indicative of the realm harm enablers do by shielding others
from the consequences of the individuals irresponsible behaviors. And the last
(07:06):
principle of the conversion experience requires that we acknowledge that while
we are ready to change not everyone or even anyone in our family system may be
ready to change as well. Decision is the second step of change. A conversion
(07:26):
experience not followed by a decision is a wasted miracle. The decision must be
yours. Nobody can make a decision for you. With every decision to say yes is
also a decision to say no. And finally we need to keep our eyes on the goal of
(07:49):
change and celebrate our successes no matter how small they may be. With that
today we are going to be moving into the topic of working a program and Rusty I'm
going to turn it over to you my friend. Okay thanks. In conjunction with what Tim
had just got through reading one of the things that Ernie Larson talks about in
(08:13):
the decision process is that a decision involves our willingness to do what it
takes not just do something to change and that's where a lot of people falter. I
mean we've all done that we've all got gone through the deal and and worked
(08:35):
right up to that thing where we're going to change and then all of a sudden that
guardian pulls us back still that's why it's so important that repetition with
this is so important for all of us because habits die hard just as he said.
That's why we have to have a hundred percent commitment. Thank you yes
(08:55):
absolutely you've got to be committed a hundred percent if you expect to get rid
of that self-defeating behavior that you that is taking you down a path that in
the beginning helped you but now has turned against you. So with that let's
talk about working a program. There are four characteristics of working an
(09:20):
effective program. First is concrete then comes practical and then focused and then
lastly but not in any way less important is consistency. You've got to be
consistent and there again that's where people tend to start to drop off right.
(09:41):
I'm going to read here just a bit from from stage two it says a program that is
vague and nebulous isn't going to get you very far. You have to nail it down.
Why? Let's say that you are just starting out in a typing class right now you
(10:01):
don't know how to type you don't have that skill. Suppose the teacher comes in
and says what do you want to do tonight? Shall we play cards or do you want to
talk about the ballgame? Are you going to advance your typing skills in that
class? Obviously not but suppose the teacher says turn to page six start
(10:24):
practicing the sentences there and I'll circulate around the room to see how
you're doing. Will that approach advance your typing skills? Most certainly. So we
got to get that down in the beginning. We've got to be concrete in what we're
going to be working with. Another little thing that he says here that I thought
(10:47):
would be important was we don't change from unskilled to skilled by fooling
around. We form all new behavioral patterns by repeated action. Practical
and concrete acts practice faithfully nail down the new tracks that lead in
(11:08):
the new direction. I love the way that that Ernie writes. The simplicity is
right there. He doesn't put any big words in there other than nebulous maybe. He
did but other than that he just he just lays it out there for you. I just want to
say that this is a proper plan. It's not just a wish or a direction to go. It's a
(11:33):
proper plan that's going to be effective. Okay tell me what proper plan means to
you. Whatever it takes to get the job done. Okay. And the actions that it's
going to take to to get the result that I want. That's where it gets difficult
for people right? Right because we search and search for a way to do things and we
(11:56):
go down a lot of rabbit holes and and get off the path and that's why the 12
steps gives us a specific direction and the stage two recovery developing that
proper plan that we're that we're talking about today. As you get to this
point in the in the program the guardian will push you off a lot and as it says
(12:19):
your habits die hard so you know I mean whatever it takes in this war on that
side is coming too so it does take everything that you you got to begin and
and God's helped to see things differently. This literally is when the
rubber hits the road is when you're either going to do this now or you're not
(12:41):
but it's life-changing that's that's the wonderful thing about it. The benefits
on the other side are unsurmountable. The next part of the the effective
program that he talks about is to be focused and that goes right along with
concrete and practical. He says that over the years I have worked with hundreds
(13:04):
and hundreds of people who thought they were working a good program but if you
ask them exactly what they were trying to change they didn't know. The specific
habit behavior and feeling needs to be identified. What are you focusing on? What
is it that you want to change? If you can't answer that question your program
(13:30):
can't be very useful as a means of change. This is where the the writing
comes in that we're going to talk about here in a little bit. For me when I write
stuff out the magic happens because I'm looking back at it's like the fourth or
four-step you know once I get it out there for me it becomes real and I go
(13:54):
back and I look at it again and again. That helps me tremendously. Does it you
guys? Oh yeah absolutely. It does help you focus and when I'm writing I
think a little bit deeper and I think because my thoughts are slowed down a
bit and I can concentrate on what I'm doing. Well I know that for me there has
(14:17):
been a lot of denial and so I'm not sure that from moving from vague to focus
there's a lot to take on there. When I do and normally when I do have some kind
of breakthrough it's just much easier. It's almost seeing it can take a lot of
that power out of it. Right. He goes on to say here the specific habit behavior
(14:42):
and feeling needs to be identified. What are you focusing on? What is exactly is
it that you want to change? If you can't answer that question your program can't
be very useful as a means of change. He puts it out there so simply that the
only way that you won't get there is it if you don't do these things. If you want
(15:07):
to take shortcuts. The next one is consistency. Pam would you read this
first part? An effective program also has to be consistent. Since habits are formed
by repeated actions we need to continue the new behavior until it becomes strong
enough to have a life of its own. Practiced consistency that new habit will
(15:31):
become who we are. Practiced inconsistency it won't change it won't
have a chance. You want to comment? This is one one place that I can use one of my
character defects of stubbornness to turn it into persistence. That's great.
(15:52):
That's great. One of the lines that that I like is since habits are formed by
repeated actions we need to continue the new behavior until it becomes strong
enough to have a life of its own. And because if we don't the habit that we're
trying to get rid of has had a life of its own a long time and it is well
(16:18):
entrenched in us. Whatever that habit is it is well defended right? Yep. That's
what he's talks about earlier. If I'm going to change that I have to be very
focused on staying with what I'm supposed to be doing on a daily basis on
that habit in the change part. And by doing that I'm being consistent. Now that
(16:43):
sounds maybe simple but believe me you guys know this you've done this. It's not
simple. No. It takes work. Just like everything he says we we need to be
committed. Concrete, practical, focused, and consistent. Those are the
characteristics of that program that can take us somewhere that we want to go. Now
(17:09):
we're at a point of putting the program together so we're taking all the
information that we've gathered so far which is a lot. It's a lot to take in. You
know that in stage two recovery when we spent eight or nine weeks pretty
intensely I would say for a couple of hours a night so you got to become aware
(17:36):
of some of your self-defeating behaviors and then some of them you didn't even I
think recognize when we first started but before it was over
it started becoming glaring at you for some of us. For some of us it did. Do you
remember one that you hadn't really realized it but you when you started
(17:58):
seeing it and someone else that it started coming into your consciousness
or did you did you really know every one that you wanted to change? I didn't know
a lot of them. Would you give me one that you think became pretty glaring for you?
This program has continued to bring this up since since I did the program but I
(18:23):
was aware of people pleasing and that kind of thing. I wasn't aware that I was
a big a martyr as I am. Part of that, what I'm finding is that the
(18:45):
four or five glaring ones that I have I've taken bits and pieces from all of
them I threw them together and came up with my own salad and so it's not just
like that. This is a pure thing. One of them leads to another and
then when I go into the people pleasing or then I'll start enabling then I'll
(19:06):
get confused then I'll hate myself and kick my butt. All of this seems to
run its way through every single one that I run into is just which one did I
kick it off with. I almost view it as a blanket. It's like these all of these
individual issues almost got laid down at the same time where I've used them
(19:27):
so much that they seem like they run together because it'll take me into
victim, it'll take me into self-pity, you know all of this all this stuff and so
that's where I've stayed vague. I think my little system doesn't want to face
any of this stuff. So your guardian is still alive? Alive in certain things.
(19:51):
Yeah. Is it because you're still getting a payoff I mean Kurt from some of them
or is it habit again? No well it's habit and I think there's yeah I think there
has been a payoff in me being terminally unique. I'm not like all you other guys
(20:11):
and what I'm finding now as I've gone on and on in the program is you know what
I face most everybody else's is facing and you know so I don't get to be unique
that way and not only that the stuff that I'm doing now is really irritating
some other people and for myself getting to a place where I'll do anything to get
(20:35):
rid of these things because now I can see I'm just walking around doing those
things. That's great so now you're at a point with some of those that you've
actually hit the wall with it. Yeah. So that's going to change. Yeah. Especially
when it's affecting my job or my my relationship with at home or any of that
really gets crucial for me. And that's exactly right. Affected my job which
(21:02):
affected the family. It goes on and on like that and then I go well it's not
just it's not just the job and you know a lot of that stuff that kicked it off
was I didn't feel real good. I was the one that was the professional. I
knew all about these things and yet I don't do it like everybody else because I
(21:23):
am a professional and those kind of thoughts give me in trouble. I don't know
it's been it's been a whole mess of stuff. Thank you. Pam anything? You know
Kurt talked about the mixed-up salad. I see sometimes that I've not been able to
recognize one of these problems because like for example my egotism overshadowed
(21:50):
everything and I didn't notice my people pleasing and because I didn't think
egotists were people pleasers but I found out this part of that inferiority
complex that I was overcoming or trying to overcome that it gets all mixed up
and it's like a that blanket's a big old patchwork quilt and all these different
sections in it so when I'm when I'm trying to sort something out the opposite
(22:14):
is there so I don't really see it or it comes across in a different way like
worry comes across as well I'm just concerned but actually it's it's fear of
what might happen in the future it's worrying so and so they pop up in it
that guardian has a different way of using a different terminology or a
different little slightly different feeling but for the same old thing well
(22:37):
I love that the guardian does that the ego it wants its way it does it wants
its way putting a program together he said that there's several things within
that and worry is probably the the big one or it's very important it is the
(23:00):
worry is a technique that's been used over many years to implement an attitude
that says no matter how hard you work or how well you do the payoff is always
going to be unfair and unjust worry is my way of saying amen or so be it to
that bottom line view of reality in other words it keeps him there again from
(23:25):
achieving what he's trying to achieve here that worry puts me on most of the
time puts me into a victim role just for and it's so subtle it's so under the
radar that we're already there before we even realize it and then the other one
which I love is projection that's another character defect that I have to
(23:50):
watch I tend to think that things really really be good if this would happen or
when so-and-so happens you know it's always in the future if this happens
that I'm going to be okay I'm projecting all the time into the future and what
I'm doing when I'm doing that is that I'm already screwing up something that
(24:14):
that I don't even know is going to happen for one thing but I'm messing up
tomorrow these are what the guardian thought was our protection mechanisms
that's right you know and almost view it as a backdrop explain that to me well
I'm gonna practice all these things because I keep them active with these
(24:37):
two things a worry or projection you know we were living in tomorrow or
messing up today that's right and that that worry thing you know the last time
around I was overcoming worry with projection wow and I overcame the worry
with projection and then found out my projection wasn't right it just you know
(25:01):
so they they end up causing more harm yeah and it boils down to me with
staying special you don't have to do things the way that others do it or
there's a lot of that is I do things better than everybody else yeah yeah
I've got that same problem and then I know then you know and you know that
(25:25):
then I know yeah and I find out huh I can't identify at all no I really can
and projection is keeps me from living today yes yes well this next one and boy
am I guilty here he says I also have to monitor workaholism it's not so much
(25:53):
what much that I work too many hours but rather that I have learned to get most
of my feelings of self-worth by getting results on my projects now there I am
that is me to a tee and others that I know right I see you looking in my
(26:13):
direction yes results are key yeah so I when I get in the middle of this though
I get mixed up so I know that I'm in trouble with this because my guardian
wants to say well rusty you just love what you do and I do love what I do but
(26:34):
at the same time am I spending enough time doing other things you know with my
wife with my grandkids with you know all of that comes in but I my self-worth I
get a lot of my self-worth from being doing what I do that's why it's hard
(26:56):
sometimes when people we retire from their career their profession that it's
it's difficult for them to adapt yes it is it is difficult you know when people
say retirement to me it's just like that's a naughty word it says here
workaholics are people who need to have their work decide whether or not they're
(27:20):
going to be happy pretty strong that's pretty strong and I for me I think it's
true yeah you know as much as I hate to say that yeah well and to there I think
there's a distinction you know can I love something that I really like to do
mm-hmm and not become obsessed about it because once I become somewhat obsessed
(27:44):
it's done and I'm gonna lose it's the way it is and I've had four major
obsessions and each one of them has really hurt over my life you know right
and so whether whatever it's work or yeah yeah a relation a particular
relationship yeah you know if it's special then I'm special and all that
(28:07):
works together yeah and then I'm not a man of session and you know it never
ends well hmm I mean it never had one yes that word never ends well for me
yeah in fact a lot of the humiliation we talk about rather than humbleness is
this comes from those yes and it's me fighting against an obsession that's
(28:28):
just bigger than me and I'm using old tools and they don't work one last thing
on on this it says the last trait that he keeps track of every day is my
difficulty accepting good things from others I don't have a hard time doing
good things for others or being readily available when they need me he goes on
(28:53):
to say but I do have a hard time accepting what others give me and of
course that is another way of saying that I don't want to receive I want to
be in control is that subtle or what yes I recognize that one very much so yeah
I do and I think it's related to the stoicism I'm afraid to let someone else
(29:19):
in and therefore if I allow you to give to or for me rather than me giving to or
for you mm-hmm you're gonna get inside and I don't want you there because I
want control and you know I have we all have a friend that you know if he sees
(29:46):
he he doesn't perceive that I'm having a really great day whether it be because
of health or whatever he'll just simply say you know I'm here if you want to
talk and he doesn't press it any more than that and you know with that I can
(30:08):
still be in control because I can make the decision to have that conversation
or not it's not that it's almost non-threatening in it it's almost
non-threatening but it helps me stay in that behavior though well yeah that's
what I mean it's non-threatening it right yeah that's good but but the fact
(30:34):
that perhaps it's the fact that rather than saying I want to go and have a talk
with you instead of you know I'm here if you want to talk would take away that
control and cause us to open up a little bit whereas I'm here if you want to talk
(30:56):
allows me the out you know sure you're not sure to not open up yeah which
sometimes is probably sometimes is what needs to happen
that's really exciting thanks I got a lot out of that one well I see this topic a
little differently I maybe it's the Alan on view but I came I come from a family
(31:21):
of people who are from poverty and so the feeling of being less than means
that I'm not worthy of receiving what you have to give me and so I'm willing
to give you know what I can and but it's a one-way street but I'm not I'm not
able to receive because I'm just not I'm just not worthy and that you know the
(31:45):
control to me could be even in that mm-hmm I think what what Pamela just said
mm-hmm goes into what I was talking about exactly I'm not gonna let you in
because I don't think I'm worthy of your time and but the form is control
(32:07):
that's the process that you go through to get that yes is that true
vulnerability is a big part of it yeah vulnerability control or the lack of
vulnerability right is that what you're saying the lack of vulnerability I'm not
sure anymore no lack of vulnerability goes along with the stoicism mm-hmm yeah
(32:31):
lack of lack of yes yes well see and and I guess I also too because it says
Ernie Larson says givers crave control well I was craved control as not as a
giver but as as a protector of what I have and so that's just the opposite of
(32:51):
a giver it's a keeper and so it's a different look at these words and these
feelings and these motives so I like it that's good mm-hmm he goes on here and
I'm going to stop for a minute guys and look at this page on 68 where he he
(33:12):
shows us a program planner which I think is great he starts out the day with a
daily reading or input and he has your sponsor on there and in the group and an
evaluation prayer meditation health care and celebration and then on the list he
has those habits that you're wanting to change and I think if folks would have
(33:38):
this worksheet and actually work it it would be amazing for you along with that
I've got some that I've blown up and have used so these are tools to apply
yeah he also goes on and talks about the daily reading you know like you did the
(34:00):
input and he says as you do your daily reading focus the input on the patterns
or habits that cause you trouble no matter how unreal or uncomfortable it
may feel to be thinking those new thoughts concrete and practical write it
down and do it and then also he talks about your sponsor or your mentor if
(34:24):
you're not you know in a 12-step program you know who is your sponsor who is your
mentor we all have to have that we have to be accountable to someone if I'm going
to to be able to change and I like in the program that I get to know a lot of
different people who've had a lot of different experiences so that if I'm
(34:48):
having a particular experience then I can go and pick their brains and talk
to them and get some input from them about what I'm going through because one
person one sponsor may not have had the experiences that I'm having and I just
like knowing a lot of a lot of different people and also for example since my
(35:12):
husband passed away I've developed a lot of friendships with other women in the
program who's have lost their husbands and being able to share on the same
level and being able to identify with that in our lives has just been very
helpful. Yeah I can see where it would I've used I have that myself Pam it pays
(35:38):
off my belief system is if a person has trauma they need to be seeing a
therapist the 12 steps are wonderful and I live them myself but they're you know
how could you expect a sponsor to know about incest or sexual abuse or that's
(36:00):
when you need professional help is when you have when you have some real trauma
and many many many of us have had trauma that have a really deeply affected our
life and that's nothing against AA I mean or 12 the 12 steps but for me that
(36:21):
needs to be noted when we're going through this because you know Ernie
goes on talks about the group and and then the evaluation at the bottom and
and then lastly prayer and meditation and then lastly your health care so all
of that to go into that would take us I don't know how many podcasts but this is
(36:43):
the heart of the program and I think too for me under prayer and meditation is
journaling writing it down I write letters to God I write letters to myself
I write letters to my emotions just to get it out on paper and help become more
aware and examine things for that evaluation mm-hmm now at the at the back
(37:08):
on page 79 he talks about relationships he goes through there and he gives you
habits to be changed on each real on different types of relationships gives
you all kinds of information and there again this would be something that we
could spend probably three or four segments on but we wanted to cover the
(37:30):
book Tim do you have any other thing that you want us to cover just one thing
rusty on the relationships and I think it it almost closes out this whole topic
mm-hmm he says that nothing is more central to stage two recovery than
increasing our ability to function in loving rewarding relationships and that
(37:54):
is what we're trying to the life we are trying to rebuild after we have become
abstinent in whatever our addiction is or our behavior is that we need to change
we are rebuilding the relationships in our lives you're right on and one thing
(38:20):
that I might mention for everyone listening is that you know Ernie
Larson has another little book stage two relationships down the road we may move
we may do that one of the things that I might mention under this relationships
(38:41):
is I've always talked about the caretaker and I've always been a caretaker
I've been I'm the oldest of six I took care of my parents I've took care of my
brother not only was financial power of attorney for them but helping them with
their health care and but caretaker for me is is the negative part is the I take
(39:01):
over and that's a controller coming out and what I've learned to do is change
that into a caregiver where I'm supporting them and the best example is
my stepdaughter just recently asked me to help her walk through her being a
caregiver by helping her elderly sister-in-law get into a nursing
(39:25):
facility and to watch her because I've supported her through through so many
things in her life recently and to watch her pass that on it's just been
wonderful to see how she supports in fact she probably does a little bit
better than I do because I still want to take over sometimes I have to watch that
(39:46):
but becoming a caregiver instead of a caretaker yeah that's really enlightening
thanks thanks a lot then I have trouble trying to figure out where is one start
the other that's right and that's what I have to do it takes me a lot of prayer
meditation and talking to my sponsor about how much do I help and how do I
(40:10):
help to make it sure that it's really helpful and not controlling and so that
I'm not enabling the situation to continue to actually be of some service
to others so it's an ongoing process it is and that's what he talks about you
know you've got to be vigilant with some of these things of the ones that that
(40:32):
Ernie mentions in here tap dancer perfectionist workaholic all three of
those are me and the only one that I have really gotten past and really dealt
with it is is the tap dancer because it's the one that caused me the most
pain if anything will motivate me it's that type of pain when I married Julie
(40:59):
and you guys have heard me talk about this before said that I was going to be
monotonous in a relationship and a loving relationship and I for the last
25 years I've done that I tell you nothing has lifted my self-worth like
that has because not only did it cause me pain I caused a lot of pain to other
(41:22):
people the workaholism I get in the middle of it and I guess I'm still to be
honest with you I get confused maybe that's just the Guardian working on me I
you know I know that the stuff that I do I love doing and then with the
perfectionism I'm totally aware of that and have come a long way I don't know
(41:46):
that I'll ever be totally rid of that perfectionism or whether I want to be
because there's things I like about myself that that I do do you have any
that you want to comment on Kurt that you've worked on you know I guess I've
done these a little bit at a time because I am kind of perfectionist II I
(42:06):
wanted to fix it all by Thursday and so I wanted to get them all out there and
get to work on them and I've had to do them as they come up and if I haven't
gotten to the place where I've hit the wall I haven't worried about it too much
and I worked on it so hard when I got here I finally took all my books and set
them aside and said God you're gonna have to teach me something here because
(42:29):
this is no way to live but I had gone that far with my books and trying to
make myself better and you know and what was driving me was I knew I was insane I
didn't know what the heck to do with that so it might have been a little bit
a little bit different all of it I had something here that you guys were
talking about when you know can't accept things from other people but accepting
(42:54):
good things from others in the middle of these called obsessions I don't want
your help you don't want my help I do not want anybody's help this is my
obsession I will make I will work it out I'll make it happen I'm totally
self-sufficient do not need you that's control I suppose but it's that you
(43:19):
might you might yeah I mean how can I yeah well let's just quit right there
because yeah because I'm not gonna go any further is just right there and
alive and well yeah of course we all know that there's a fear behind that yeah
till you till you're ready to do something well and the good thing about
this program I've been asked to do things over and over again that I am not
(43:42):
equipped to do and I've had to ask God for help to do those things I don't know
how to do most of this stuff you know and it's embarrassing but I do but I
feel like it's a C grade I don't grade myself on that I shouldn't be grading
myself at all but and so then that kicks in the other thing the poor selfie
(44:04):
images yeah Tim anything that you have that you want to comment it I think
perfect you know I am perfect in all my little ways in my mind I think the one
thing that is sticking out to me at the moment is the consistency we have to
(44:27):
consistently be aware of our actions and our self-defeating behaviors and
consistently trying to move past those items into the place we want to be
because if we don't make the change we're not going to get our desired
(44:47):
result the last thing I would like to say is I believe this morning we failed
to introduce our guests Pamela and Kurt today and both Rusty and I are very
appreciative of you being here with us for four episodes to talk about this one
(45:08):
topic which is a four episode topic but being willing to be open and honest
about these things that go through our minds in stage two recovery and you know
we've we've gone through stage two recovery together as part of a group and
(45:31):
you know I think part of the consistency is that I attend a meeting related to my
primary addiction every single morning of the week and in order to be consistent
in a process sometimes we need to be reminded of what the process is and so
(45:53):
perhaps doing a stage two recovery program again with other individuals
will help us to reinforce and reevaluate the changes that we have made and still
need to make in living a happier and more meaningful life well I'm already
(46:15):
realizing that from our sessions that there's more I want to dig in and delve
into and and realizing that I've you know I've gotten into some areas that
have not been in before like martyrdom and tap dancing and stuff so that's
that's new for me and so and recently I I learned about feeling some trauma in my
(46:37):
life which you know in the past decades I haven't done that so there's always
something new and something broader to see and and today and I'm looking
forward to doing this again and enjoying it even more yeah I want to thank both
you guys for being here and doing this with us of course you know what they I
(47:01):
love you both immensely and every time I go through this I learned something new
that's it's just amazing to me that that the awareness comes if we're if we're
looking for it we'll get the awareness so and I hope everyone out there has
enjoyed this as much as I have and we'll be seeing you soon this has been a
(47:26):
production of children of chaos net children of a chaos as a forum to
discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and recovery in America is
not affiliated with endorsed or financed by any recovery or treatment program
organization or institution any views thoughts or opinions expressed by an
(47:46):
individual in this venue are solely that of the individual and do not reflect
the views policies or position of any specific recovery based entity or
organization
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