July 10, 2024 • 43 mins
2024 1038 Michelle H continues our conversation on the topic boundaries, with Rusty and Tim, in terms of defining healthy boundaries based on our individual motivations and difficulty with codependency as related to boundaries.
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(00:00):
Good morning everyone. I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:03):
Hi Rusty.
Hello Michelle.
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Hi Tim.
Hi.
And I'm Michelle. ACOA, alcoholic, Al-Anon, you name it, I got it.
Today we're going to follow up with boundaries. We started this last week and Michelle and
(00:26):
I are going to finish it up. Our other person that was with us last week is in Florida this
week so Michelle and I are taking the helm kind of a deal.
Today what is a healthy boundary? That's a good question, isn't it? And I want to just
read this real shortly. It says you can develop your own sense of what's appropriate by asking
(00:51):
certain questions about the relationship. What's your orientation to that person? Do
you look up to them, down to them, or across from them? Are you in a receiving or a giving
role?
Now this goes into my personal relationships. When I'm at my job or my profession, how do
(01:15):
I set boundaries there? Well, they're sure different than the ones that I set at my home
or what I set with myself and Michelle or Tim and the boundaries that I set with, and
she sets with me and my wife. They're all different. And each one of them need to be
healthy if we're to have a healthy relationship. I think people that are hearing this would
(01:42):
understand there's so much codependency in all those relationships, or there can be.
And for someone who is an owner of a business, as Michelle is, it's going to be different
with her employees. I'm going to let you speak to that, Michelle, if you would.
Well, I've been thinking a lot about boundaries since last week. I think for me, boundaries
(02:10):
have to do, or codependency and bad boundaries have to do with control and trying to feel
safe. And I've noticed that when I give a lot of advice to people, unwarranted and unsolicited
advice, and to me that is also crossing a boundary. And I think I do that to try to
(02:39):
maintain control and a safe environment. And this spills over into my work. I work with
my son and my father. And it can be really tricky, but we seem to do better in that environment
than we do personally. And we've learned how to compartmentalize, which is helpful. And
(03:07):
I think that you have to be careful because you don't always want to compartmentalize
things and put things in a box. But at work, it is helpful because if we get into a spat
or a disagreement on a personal level, we've gotten to where we don't bring that to work.
(03:29):
And we don't have shouting matches at work. And there are some behaviors that we just
don't participate in. So it's perplexing to think, well, why can we show that restraint
and self-control there, but not with other topics?
What do you think the reason is?
(03:50):
Well, at work, there are other people around. And I think sometimes you have people that
aren't in the family system. So you hold a higher standard. You don't want to air your
dirty laundry and go springer in front of the workplace. And we are all about productivity
(04:16):
and the capitalistic way and having a good company and making jobs and money and being
productive. So you have to have other employees to do that. And many of our other employees
have been there a long time and they do have good boundaries or better boundaries or good
(04:39):
work boundaries. And it's respect. And we don't do that in front of them because we
don't want them to be disgruntled, unhappy and leave, I think. And it goes back to that
whole way of thinking. You want everything to look okay on the outside.
(05:00):
And you mentioned that you're in the making of money. But also, something that you might
not say yourself though, Michelle, is that in that business, you and your family give
so much back to the community. And that says so much about a person's soul or their heart
or their values.
Well, we have a for-profit business and a nonprofit business. And the foundation does
(05:26):
give back. I was asked to come back to work for my dad in year one or two of sobriety
and I'm around 20 years sober now. And I really prayed about it because my dad is a perfectionist.
He is really hard working. And it wasn't uncommon for me to work 55 hours a week when I was
(05:54):
in my 30s. And I didn't want to do that. I didn't know if I could stay sober with that
kind of stress. I traveled a lot with my job. And he is different to me than he is to the
other employees. And probably my son too. He expects more from us. He doesn't bat an
eye of asking us to do what needs to be done. And we really don't usually even have to be
(06:21):
asked because that's an internal compass or a mechanism that has been instilled in us
since birth. So there are some inconsistencies to how he treats other employees. But he's
pretty hard on all of us. I mean, he has pretty high expectations. And he's 86 years old and
(06:44):
he still works every day. And we have a helicopter lift service and he'll ride in the back of
that helicopter and serve as crew chief. They'll leave at four in the morning and get home
at nine o'clock at night. And he won't bat an eye at doing that. And sitting back there
will just kill your back. I don't know why or how he does it, but he does set a high
(07:09):
standard for us. That's wonderful. Well, you've got to, it sounds like your family really
works with you and you work with them. And that is, that's a rarity too. We work close
together. You've got to have some boundaries there that everybody's agreeing to. Yeah,
I guess it must or it wouldn't work. Yeah. And we try to stay out of each other's lane
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and not micromanage. See, I'm a bad micromanager. I'm much better than I ever was. Unsolicited
vice. All of those type of things are what we're talking about with these boundaries.
And I just have, I was born with anxiety. The doctor told my mom that I was a nervous
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baby. And so I don't know if that came from a previous lifetime or birth trauma or my
chemistry or what, but it definitely started early on for me. Tim, alcoholic. Michelle,
do the boundaries you've been talking about that you and your father and son have at work
(08:17):
and the discipline involved, do those boundaries hold in your personal relationships outside
of the work environment? I think the hierarchy does that my dad's the ultimate boss, but
(08:38):
in personal more things come up about feelings and wants and needs. And it's a different
dynamic and my family doesn't really talk about feelings and those type of things as
much. So when we have conflict in the family, it gets messy because I think my dad's really
(09:07):
good at work and is probably somewhat a workaholic, but it's almost like we have more of a structure
and a framework and language and common goals and things like that. And it makes it easier
(09:29):
in the family. There's more people involved who are even more problematic and have different
styles and my mother has kind of the ostrich style where she just doesn't want to look
at it, put her head in the sand. She doesn't like conflict. So you begin to have a lot
(09:54):
of more players on the scene and not as much skillful scripting. I don't know how to say
that but. This is about boundaries and Michelle has given you within the structure of the
family systems. That's the work that we're all doing is in family systems. People don't
(10:18):
realize it, but a family is a system and everybody plays a role in that system. Michelle has
just given us a great example of that. I wanted to talk a little bit about some examples of
unhealthy boundaries. Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting. Now you've met
(10:44):
people like this. All of a sudden they're telling you stuff that you're sitting there
going, Jiminy. I think I do that in dating. Maybe not the first date, but definitely when
we're starting to like each other. If it's somebody that I don't that I'm not really
connected to, I will overshare. That's one thing I'm going to work on because I don't
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know that it's helpful. I think though it's kind of alluring in my case to the other person
because I'm really exaggerated and can tell some pretty good stories. I think I get my
cart in front of my horse. Are you too enthusiastic? Maybe. I think I need to find out if I even
(11:33):
like that person well enough to give them all this information. I think I do until I
get to know them better. You're very open. That's one of the things I love about you.
I'm very open. You can't hurt me because there's no secrets. I think that's a good
point. I think early in my drinking, I would sometimes lay it all out there. If there's
(12:00):
something you don't like, here it is. Leave me now. Don't abandon me later. If you're
going to hurt me, just let's get it over with before I have any more invested. That's great.
Tim, how about you? I think I take the other tack. That would be the stoicism. I tend to
(12:21):
hold it all inside until it comes out in an explosion. There's the silent scorn and I'm
going to punish you until I am ready to explode. Sometimes that explosion happens on complete
strangers. The example of that is I had a friend pass away and I didn't find out for
(12:44):
six months. It's my fault that I didn't find out for six months. That's what my part in
this dilemma was. I told my sponsor about it and he says, well, are you ready to talk
about it? The answer was no, I am not ready to talk about it. I picked up a passenger
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in my Uber and we were just talking. He says, well, don't pay any attention to me. I'm
just a drunk named Lee. Then I thought, this is the person I can unload on. I vomited all
of this hate and discontent and scorn and everything else. Then the fact that I knew
(13:29):
this was my fault. That stranger that I crossed all of these boundaries with, we did a fourth
step, a fifth step, a sixth step, a seventh step, and an eleventh step because that was
one alcoholic talking to another. He allowed me the latitude. He didn't know me from out
(13:57):
of them.
So what did you learn in that? I mean about yourself and boundaries.
I think the lesson from that, number one, it was a spiritual experience. It was very
positive. But there was also a lesson in that, that I'm not sure you would call it a boundary,
(14:20):
but the lesson from that was I need to keep in contact with the people that are close
to me even if I don't want to.
Well, I think there is a boundary there.
So what would that be?
Well the boundary is you became aware that you need to maybe change some behavior to
(14:42):
let more people in.
True. The right people in.
Thank you.
The right people in.
Yes, yes. But to do that because you've said yourself and of course we've known each other
for a while now and I've seen you change a lot with that just by doing our podcast here.
(15:03):
Thanks.
You know, there's, that's kind of two sides of the coin, over sharing and then the stoicism.
But I believe when people are vulnerable or when I'm vulnerable, it gives other people
permission to be open and people tell me that they really, really like that I'm open and
(15:28):
vulnerable, but there are mornings when I wake up occasionally not too many and was
like, man, I wish I didn't say that.
And that's a bad feeling.
When I drank, I had that almost every morning.
And luckily I don't have it very much, but I think there is that internal compass and
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when you have that healthy shame that you need to look at it.
Yeah, not that debilitating shame because I have that too, but I think there is a healthy
shame that you need to look at if you feel that and maybe talk with your sponsor or a
trusted friend to say, is there something valid here or am I overreacting or why am
(16:18):
I overreacting because have what have I triggered here?
Yeah, man, that is really Michelle.
That's a great point.
John Bradshaw talks about that, that there is toxic shame and there's healthy shame.
And you just gave another example of healthy shame, those things that help me set some
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better boundaries for myself and to think before I speak sometimes.
I want to say again on YouTube, you can find John Bradshaw about shame and it is really
good.
I want to give you a couple of more on unhealthy boundaries.
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One is letting others direct your life and another one is expecting others to feel your
needs automatically.
Or even know what your needs are without even expressing them.
There you go.
Exactly.
And that can get people in a lot of trouble and this comes into people pleasing too.
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Sometimes we'll throw our boundary out the window just to please somebody else because
that need for it to be liked.
I don't have that much anymore.
Or that need to do anything in your power so they don't abandon you.
Absolutely.
Now how many times have people done that?
(17:46):
I know I've done it.
I've done it.
I've done it a lot before I got sober.
But that's just throwing away the boundary.
Sure it is.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Even if it's temporary.
Absolutely.
You usually don't have that boundary when you're doing it, when you're at that level.
For many of us, we don't have the awareness that we're even doing some of these things.
(18:09):
Did you know about people pleasing before you got into recovery?
I didn't.
I didn't know terms.
But you knew when you were doing it.
I knew concepts in the fact that I didn't know that what I do is called people pleasing.
But I knew that I wanted everyone to like me and I didn't want anyone to abandon me.
(18:31):
Right.
Good point, Tim.
I wasn't sure what to do the morning my boss walked in and the gist of the conversation
is none of your employees want to work for you anymore.
Well, okay, I guess I wasn't pleasing you and you are abandoning me.
(18:53):
But it didn't take a hold at that point in time because I was still actively drinking.
I was probably intoxicated when the conversation happened.
So it didn't take effect then.
It was only later in recovery learning about that.
I think I have to look at the people I'm attracting to because that's really important.
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Who I'm attracting as friends, who I'm attracting in the program, who I'm attracting to date.
Because if you're attracting takers, you might be a giver.
And if you're attracting narcissists, you might be a giver.
Boy, now there is the truth.
I'm telling you.
(19:40):
Here's one that I hesitated on bringing this up today.
But being sexual for a partner, not for yourself.
Now I can say in my marriage, in the intimacy that we have, the boundaries we both have
is that we like pleasing the other one.
(20:00):
But at the same time, I still, there's certain things that sometimes you may not want to
have sex.
You're just not there.
You know, the intimacy for you right then, you've got other stuff going on.
And we all have our times.
We all have feelings about that.
And it's really important in the work that I do, work in family systems, when I'm dealing
(20:24):
with partners, the lack of intimacy in some of these relationships, it's really sad.
I think you said something in the middle there about talking about it.
I think if you can be honest and have these discussions, not in the bedroom, but outside
the bedroom, that's important.
(20:45):
Great, great.
And really understand what each other's needs are.
Sometimes I don't even know that we understand what our own needs are or what motivates that.
I had a really good sponsor and she used to say, what's your motivation?
What's your motivation?
I got so tired of hearing that, but it's so true because if you peel the onion back to
(21:08):
the real motivation, you can learn a lot.
Absolutely.
Thank you for that too.
My sponsor, Gilby, would always say to me, no matter what it was about, Rusty, what's
your motive?
Always look at your motive behind whatever's going on.
You may want to look good and make up, but what's your real motive going on here?
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If you pinpoint that, you may not want to pursue that.
Have you found that true?
Absolutely.
And I was also sparked by something you said.
Because I think if you can talk about these things, you will learn... In sexual relationships,
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there are imbalances in relationships too, just because of maybe you're a giver and you
need to learn to receive.
And so there may be imbalances-
Great point.
Or look like there are imbalances, but there are things that people need to learn to do.
Boy, that's a great point.
(22:16):
One other and then we can move on.
Expecting others to feel your needs automatically.
If you haven't told them what you need, people aren't mind readers.
Now a lot of people think they are, but they're not.
I mean, they can guess about what a person is feeling or if we can't communicate that,
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and see that's setting the boundary too.
I felt for a long time that somebody else was responsible for making me happy and I
was wrong.
Happiness is an inside job and I am responsible for a lot of my own needs and feelings and
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it's a crossing a boundary to even put that on somebody sometimes.
Absolutely.
Tim?
You know, I'm not sure what to call it.
I have an unrequested need that Janice understands just by my actions and that is based on her
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past experience with her mother who had COPD as well.
We can just be sitting around and having a conversation and she will realize that I'm
having a hard time breathing.
And she just stops.
She just stops talking because she knows I have to concentrate on inhaling and exhaling
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and that may go on for a couple minutes.
And when I start talking again, the conversation continues, but she acknowledges the fact that
I can't talk to you anymore.
I have to concentrate on this and she lets that happen.
And so I don't know what that unspoken need would be called, but it's there and it's
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acknowledged and that's a healthy need and response to that need.
It's not unhealthy at all, but it's a very positive thing and it does not require stress
on my part to say, I can't breathe.
You got to stop talking because I can't even hear what you're saying.
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I don't have to do that, but I don't know what that would be called.
I think that's the beautiful part of having an intimate relationship where you begin to
know each other on a level where you do recognize the other person's needs, but I don't think
that you can always rely on that.
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I think communication still is an important part of the prescription.
Yeah.
I agree that the communication is important, but this is a learned behavior on her part
that when she sees this starting to happen, this is what her response needs to be.
(25:17):
Well part of that is a transference from her memory of her mom.
When she saw certain behavior, she knew what that was because she lived it.
So when she sees that behavior in you, she's assuming and after a while she feels like
she knows what it is.
So that can be good or at times as Michelle says, that could be a negative thing because
(25:43):
it may not be that at all.
May not be.
If we get into mind reading, we're in trouble.
And what you were talking about transference and being comfortable with things from your
past and thinking they're the same.
(26:04):
And I'm not talking about what you're talking about because I think what she's doing is
beautiful to help you.
But I sometimes think what's happening in the present is the same thing as happened
in the past and I am not operating correctly because they are different and I'm reacting
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to something, to a memory, not what is really happening now.
And that can cause a lot of problems in any type of relationship.
And I don't think that's happening with you, Tim.
No, I didn't.
I didn't take it negatively.
Well on that point, let's talk a little bit and this there again has to do with boundaries.
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It's called healthy interdependency.
Now I'm going to go ahead and read this.
It says, partners who go out of their way for each other are interdependent.
Only relatively healthy people are capable of interdependent relationships which involve
give and take.
It is not unhealthy to unilaterally give during a time when your partner is having difficulty.
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You know your partner will reciprocate should the tables turn.
Interdependency also implies that you do not have to give until it hurts.
By comparison, in a codependent relationship, one partner does almost all the giving while
the other does almost all the taking almost all the time.
(27:44):
And a lot of people live in relationships just like that.
There again, it takes practice with some of this stuff.
A lot of these things that we're talking about on boundaries, we haven't practiced.
And then you have a boundary that you want to assist helpful to you, but to the person
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that you're involved with, it's not.
What if they don't agree with that?
Because that can happen.
So what are you going to do?
Well, you're going to explain to them why you need that to happen.
And then if they don't want to go along with that, then you've got to make some decisions
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on what your next point of reference might be, depending on the person that you're with.
I tend to repeat patterns and keep picking the same people with the same kind of boundaries.
It may get a little better or change, but I keep finding myself with similar people.
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And I think that I have a default of feeling comfortable with that.
And I can get right in that groove again.
And it's really hard for me to jump out of that rut.
I laugh, I say, yeah, I get in a rut and I decorate it.
You got to be comfortable in your surroundings.
(29:05):
Yes, yes.
But it doesn't solve my boundary issue.
But it doesn't solve the boundary issue.
Okay, there again, interdependency.
We're going to talk a little bit about enabling.
And if you're enabling to say that you don't have some healthy boundaries is probably an
(29:27):
understatement because you don't enable if you have healthy boundaries.
I had a lady a while back, a mother, 70 something years old, and she came to me at my office
and it was about her son, her alcoholic son.
Her 60 year old?
(29:47):
Well, he's actually he's 42.
Okay.
And he keeps repeating the same behaviors over and over.
And she keeps repeating the same behaviors over and over.
He will tell her something.
He will rationalize it every time.
And she reacts the same way.
(30:08):
The last time she was in, we sit down and I wrote it out for her.
Even want to say now was I enabling her?
I don't know.
But I tell you what I was doing was I was trying to give this woman every opportunity
to change some behavior.
You can be aware of something for a long time and not change behavior.
(30:34):
This is true.
And it's kind of like what you said.
You want to decorate it after a while, right?
Yeah.
So I got a call about a week later and she said, well, he's back.
And I said, well, did you do what we talked about?
You didn't let him in.
She said, no, I'd let him in again.
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And so I said, well, maybe you need to do this for yourself.
Maybe you need to go down and get a restraining order against him and go the legal route.
And she couldn't do that.
We see this all the time with alcoholics, addicts.
And usually, you can tell I'm hesitant to say this in a way, it's usually the mother
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and it's more so with a son.
There's some kind of a bond there with them and they hold that so tightly to them.
They're just not able to turn that child down.
I have a son and that happened to me.
I wanted to help him and I didn't want him to fall down and get hurt, you know, metaphorically.
(31:51):
And so I was always there to pick up the pieces.
And what it does is it creates this dependency, which I like because I want my son to need
me and to be there and to keep coming back.
But then it and they have this dependency, which creates a resentment because they want
to be their own man, their own person.
(32:13):
And so it's a really given back and forth dynamic that is really unpleasant.
Absolutely.
And I'm not suggesting this with you and your son, but when it gets to a point that this
person that I was talking about, it's called emotional incest.
(32:34):
We're not talking about sexual here at all.
We're talking about emotional incest.
And men have it with a daughter.
They have the same thing.
And it is one of the most unhealthy places you can be.
It can happen in with your significant other too.
Oh, absolutely.
(32:56):
And you see this all the time with alcoholics and addicts and their families.
You know, I don't know that enabling is even the word for it.
I mean, it goes past that.
I want to read you some defenses that are used by the dependent whenever they're being
confronted.
Well, they'll start rationalizing right away.
(33:17):
And then the then the enabler will they'll believe it.
They want to believe it so badly that this might be the time or they will repress their
feelings.
They'll shut down.
And there's nothing worse for a codependent than somebody to shut down and not talk to
them.
They don't want to talk about they just want they're going to pursue that to get that person
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to open up to them.
Or they will project.
You know, it's always about it's your fault.
You know, you've done this.
You've made me this way.
And then when they're doing that, the codependent will say, yeah, it's all my fault.
It's all my fault.
I know I've done this to you, son.
(34:00):
In fact, the more they become irresponsible, the more the codependent becomes overly responsible.
And the dependent less than because they know they're going to take care of it and they
don't even step up anymore.
Well, it's a boundary they've set with each other that I'm going to do this.
(34:20):
And now you will do this.
And nothing changes.
Well, that's not true.
It does change.
It gets worse.
You go deeper into the codependency.
And basically, in my case, it was like saying, son, I have no confidence that you're able
to do this at all.
(34:40):
So I'm going to take care of it for you.
And it really, really is hurtful.
Luckily, my son completely pushed me out of his life for a few years.
And that really hurt.
I did not like that.
And I don't even know that his boundaries are so healthy, but he really wanted to be
(35:01):
his own man.
And he wanted and I did it out of love.
I didn't do it out of malice or harm.
I thought I was doing the right thing.
But he is his own independent thinker, has a career, has his own family, and is quite
capable today.
(35:21):
So doesn't really need my help at all, unfortunately, but I wait until he asks, though, to give
it.
Yeah, if they ask, then you have a choice what you want to do and what you don't want
to do.
That's the way that a healthy boundary works.
You know, if he asks, you will reply.
And you may want to help him and you may not want to.
(35:42):
Correct.
But it's going to be your choice then.
I want to just go over three Cs.
You didn't cause the disease, you can't control the disease, and you sure can't cure the disease.
There's one other thing that I did want to mention today.
It's symptoms of failure to set boundaries.
(36:04):
Now this is going to sound kind of strange for some of you.
Depression, panic, passive aggressive behavior, of course, codependency.
Commodities with being alone.
Victim mentality.
(36:25):
Now every codependent I've ever met is a victim in some form.
Some of them are worse than others.
I was a victim when I got here.
When I got sober, when I walked in the doors, I was a victim of life.
Life had not treated me well.
Today I know that life treated me the way that I treated life.
(36:48):
My behaviors got me where I was at when I walked through the door of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Another one would be substance abuse and eating disorders.
Procrastination, impulsivity, and here's my big one for me.
Generalized anxiety.
(37:08):
I still have that going on in my life.
I used to think if I could just work the steps enough, if I could just do the right thing,
that anxiety.
What do you think causes that?
I think I came on the planet wired wrong or just wired a different way.
(37:28):
I really do.
Well that's what the doctor said about me.
Well.
Got a nervous baby here.
Now has it gotten better?
Of course it's better because a lot of things have changed in my life.
But that anxiety is.
I think that's one of the reasons I drank.
I was trying to self-medicate that anxiety.
(37:49):
And now I can notice it, name it, and I've got techniques.
I've got tools in my belt.
Breath work or call somebody.
But not just impulsively even get busy.
You know that's what I used to do.
I used to try to stay so busy I could stay ahead of it.
And that's one of the things that I have and I think that we both have this in common is
(38:13):
obsessive compulsive behaviors.
And that goes right along with the anxiety.
Well there are some things that I will set a boundary with today to keep me from that
compulsive or obsessive behavior that I can get into.
I'm into it before I even know.
Me too.
(38:35):
And I think everything you listed is a way for me, the ones that I participate in, are
a way for me to keep my environment safe and to have some sort of control over things.
Thank you.
It's been a boundary that we have set in our lives, but it really has it worked for us
(38:56):
for the most part.
Well I think the boundary we set did the opposite thing.
So we have to set a different boundary to get a different result.
Thank you.
Yes, exactly Michelle.
And some days I'm willing to do it and some days I'm not.
That's one of the main controversies that come up in my marriage is my obsessive compulsive
(39:19):
behavior.
Because I will start doing something and I'll do it till the cows come home and it's got
to be right.
But I'm aware of it and I can make a change, but some of them I still like.
Well and the bigger the stakes, like let's say your daughter's going to go to jail if
she does this, there's a whole different level of anxiety than if she leaves her sock on
(39:47):
the floor.
Correct.
So I mean I can deal with the sock, but I sometimes can't stop myself when the stakes
are really high.
Right.
Because I think I have some control to keep this event from happening and it creates a
lot of damage.
Correct.
But we do have that awareness now.
(40:09):
Some of these things take a lot to change that behavior.
For you, would you call it a self-defeating behavior?
Which one?
The obsessive compulsive.
I think it was two things happened.
One, I was born nervous, which I was trying to control and keep my environment safe, but
(40:32):
it also became a learned, it was reinforced with like the men I chose that were alcoholics.
I'm an alcoholic too, but I always chose alcoholics that were worse than me for some reason or
they got worse than me.
Maybe it was because I was enabling them and I kept taking the responsibility and they
(40:54):
just kept getting worse.
I don't know.
But it was a learned behavior and it became worse and worse on my end to just keep grabbing
and grasping and trying to control it and change it.
And it was very much a self-defeating behavior.
(41:15):
I can remember Mark M one time, he's a cornerstone in this town, he's no longer with us, got
me down on my knees, got a broomstick with a white t-shirt on it and said, you have got
to surrender.
And I waved that flag every day until, I mean, it was a high stake.
(41:35):
My ex-husband was drunk driving with my four-year-old son who could barely tell me what was happening
and the court system wouldn't do anything.
But I was getting sicker and sicker and worse and worse to the point, I mean, I was, I'm
really tall and six feet tall.
I was at like 135 pounds.
(41:56):
I wasn't sleeping.
And my enabling, my obsessive compulsive, the circular thoughts were taking me down.
And we don't know it, we don't know it, but virtually we don't have any healthy boundaries
(42:18):
for sure.
I was doing drive-bys by the house, looking for him at the bar.
I mean, I was about to really literally lose my mind.
And I was just worried about my son.
It was just on the surface for the love of my son.
Yes.
You know, I want to say this.
(42:39):
I love having Michelle on this podcast because she is so honest and open with her feelings
and her opinions.
I have such great respect for her.
Thank you.
So, we'll see you guys next time.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and
(43:03):
recovery in America, is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment
program, organization, or institution.
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely
that of the individual and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific
(43:25):
recovery-based entity or organization.
Good morning everyone. I'm Rusty and I'm an alcoholic.
(00:03):
Hi Rusty.
Hello Michelle.
And I'm Tim and I'm an alcoholic and this is Children of Chaos.
Hi Tim.
Hi.
And I'm Michelle. ACOA, alcoholic, Al-Anon, you name it, I got it.
Today we're going to follow up with boundaries. We started this last week and Michelle and
(00:26):
I are going to finish it up. Our other person that was with us last week is in Florida this
week so Michelle and I are taking the helm kind of a deal.
Today what is a healthy boundary? That's a good question, isn't it? And I want to just
read this real shortly. It says you can develop your own sense of what's appropriate by asking
(00:51):
certain questions about the relationship. What's your orientation to that person? Do
you look up to them, down to them, or across from them? Are you in a receiving or a giving
role?
Now this goes into my personal relationships. When I'm at my job or my profession, how do
(01:15):
I set boundaries there? Well, they're sure different than the ones that I set at my home
or what I set with myself and Michelle or Tim and the boundaries that I set with, and
she sets with me and my wife. They're all different. And each one of them need to be
healthy if we're to have a healthy relationship. I think people that are hearing this would
(01:42):
understand there's so much codependency in all those relationships, or there can be.
And for someone who is an owner of a business, as Michelle is, it's going to be different
with her employees. I'm going to let you speak to that, Michelle, if you would.
Well, I've been thinking a lot about boundaries since last week. I think for me, boundaries
(02:10):
have to do, or codependency and bad boundaries have to do with control and trying to feel
safe. And I've noticed that when I give a lot of advice to people, unwarranted and unsolicited
advice, and to me that is also crossing a boundary. And I think I do that to try to
(02:39):
maintain control and a safe environment. And this spills over into my work. I work with
my son and my father. And it can be really tricky, but we seem to do better in that environment
than we do personally. And we've learned how to compartmentalize, which is helpful. And
(03:07):
I think that you have to be careful because you don't always want to compartmentalize
things and put things in a box. But at work, it is helpful because if we get into a spat
or a disagreement on a personal level, we've gotten to where we don't bring that to work.
(03:29):
And we don't have shouting matches at work. And there are some behaviors that we just
don't participate in. So it's perplexing to think, well, why can we show that restraint
and self-control there, but not with other topics?
What do you think the reason is?
(03:50):
Well, at work, there are other people around. And I think sometimes you have people that
aren't in the family system. So you hold a higher standard. You don't want to air your
dirty laundry and go springer in front of the workplace. And we are all about productivity
(04:16):
and the capitalistic way and having a good company and making jobs and money and being
productive. So you have to have other employees to do that. And many of our other employees
have been there a long time and they do have good boundaries or better boundaries or good
(04:39):
work boundaries. And it's respect. And we don't do that in front of them because we
don't want them to be disgruntled, unhappy and leave, I think. And it goes back to that
whole way of thinking. You want everything to look okay on the outside.
(05:00):
And you mentioned that you're in the making of money. But also, something that you might
not say yourself though, Michelle, is that in that business, you and your family give
so much back to the community. And that says so much about a person's soul or their heart
or their values.
Well, we have a for-profit business and a nonprofit business. And the foundation does
(05:26):
give back. I was asked to come back to work for my dad in year one or two of sobriety
and I'm around 20 years sober now. And I really prayed about it because my dad is a perfectionist.
He is really hard working. And it wasn't uncommon for me to work 55 hours a week when I was
(05:54):
in my 30s. And I didn't want to do that. I didn't know if I could stay sober with that
kind of stress. I traveled a lot with my job. And he is different to me than he is to the
other employees. And probably my son too. He expects more from us. He doesn't bat an
eye of asking us to do what needs to be done. And we really don't usually even have to be
(06:21):
asked because that's an internal compass or a mechanism that has been instilled in us
since birth. So there are some inconsistencies to how he treats other employees. But he's
pretty hard on all of us. I mean, he has pretty high expectations. And he's 86 years old and
(06:44):
he still works every day. And we have a helicopter lift service and he'll ride in the back of
that helicopter and serve as crew chief. They'll leave at four in the morning and get home
at nine o'clock at night. And he won't bat an eye at doing that. And sitting back there
will just kill your back. I don't know why or how he does it, but he does set a high
(07:09):
standard for us. That's wonderful. Well, you've got to, it sounds like your family really
works with you and you work with them. And that is, that's a rarity too. We work close
together. You've got to have some boundaries there that everybody's agreeing to. Yeah,
I guess it must or it wouldn't work. Yeah. And we try to stay out of each other's lane
(07:34):
and not micromanage. See, I'm a bad micromanager. I'm much better than I ever was. Unsolicited
vice. All of those type of things are what we're talking about with these boundaries.
And I just have, I was born with anxiety. The doctor told my mom that I was a nervous
(07:55):
baby. And so I don't know if that came from a previous lifetime or birth trauma or my
chemistry or what, but it definitely started early on for me. Tim, alcoholic. Michelle,
do the boundaries you've been talking about that you and your father and son have at work
(08:17):
and the discipline involved, do those boundaries hold in your personal relationships outside
of the work environment? I think the hierarchy does that my dad's the ultimate boss, but
(08:38):
in personal more things come up about feelings and wants and needs. And it's a different
dynamic and my family doesn't really talk about feelings and those type of things as
much. So when we have conflict in the family, it gets messy because I think my dad's really
(09:07):
good at work and is probably somewhat a workaholic, but it's almost like we have more of a structure
and a framework and language and common goals and things like that. And it makes it easier
(09:29):
in the family. There's more people involved who are even more problematic and have different
styles and my mother has kind of the ostrich style where she just doesn't want to look
at it, put her head in the sand. She doesn't like conflict. So you begin to have a lot
(09:54):
of more players on the scene and not as much skillful scripting. I don't know how to say
that but. This is about boundaries and Michelle has given you within the structure of the
family systems. That's the work that we're all doing is in family systems. People don't
(10:18):
realize it, but a family is a system and everybody plays a role in that system. Michelle has
just given us a great example of that. I wanted to talk a little bit about some examples of
unhealthy boundaries. Talking at an intimate level on the first meeting. Now you've met
(10:44):
people like this. All of a sudden they're telling you stuff that you're sitting there
going, Jiminy. I think I do that in dating. Maybe not the first date, but definitely when
we're starting to like each other. If it's somebody that I don't that I'm not really
connected to, I will overshare. That's one thing I'm going to work on because I don't
(11:09):
know that it's helpful. I think though it's kind of alluring in my case to the other person
because I'm really exaggerated and can tell some pretty good stories. I think I get my
cart in front of my horse. Are you too enthusiastic? Maybe. I think I need to find out if I even
(11:33):
like that person well enough to give them all this information. I think I do until I
get to know them better. You're very open. That's one of the things I love about you.
I'm very open. You can't hurt me because there's no secrets. I think that's a good
point. I think early in my drinking, I would sometimes lay it all out there. If there's
(12:00):
something you don't like, here it is. Leave me now. Don't abandon me later. If you're
going to hurt me, just let's get it over with before I have any more invested. That's great.
Tim, how about you? I think I take the other tack. That would be the stoicism. I tend to
(12:21):
hold it all inside until it comes out in an explosion. There's the silent scorn and I'm
going to punish you until I am ready to explode. Sometimes that explosion happens on complete
strangers. The example of that is I had a friend pass away and I didn't find out for
(12:44):
six months. It's my fault that I didn't find out for six months. That's what my part in
this dilemma was. I told my sponsor about it and he says, well, are you ready to talk
about it? The answer was no, I am not ready to talk about it. I picked up a passenger
(13:06):
in my Uber and we were just talking. He says, well, don't pay any attention to me. I'm
just a drunk named Lee. Then I thought, this is the person I can unload on. I vomited all
of this hate and discontent and scorn and everything else. Then the fact that I knew
(13:29):
this was my fault. That stranger that I crossed all of these boundaries with, we did a fourth
step, a fifth step, a sixth step, a seventh step, and an eleventh step because that was
one alcoholic talking to another. He allowed me the latitude. He didn't know me from out
(13:57):
of them.
So what did you learn in that? I mean about yourself and boundaries.
I think the lesson from that, number one, it was a spiritual experience. It was very
positive. But there was also a lesson in that, that I'm not sure you would call it a boundary,
(14:20):
but the lesson from that was I need to keep in contact with the people that are close
to me even if I don't want to.
Well, I think there is a boundary there.
So what would that be?
Well the boundary is you became aware that you need to maybe change some behavior to
(14:42):
let more people in.
True. The right people in.
Thank you.
The right people in.
Yes, yes. But to do that because you've said yourself and of course we've known each other
for a while now and I've seen you change a lot with that just by doing our podcast here.
(15:03):
Thanks.
You know, there's, that's kind of two sides of the coin, over sharing and then the stoicism.
But I believe when people are vulnerable or when I'm vulnerable, it gives other people
permission to be open and people tell me that they really, really like that I'm open and
(15:28):
vulnerable, but there are mornings when I wake up occasionally not too many and was
like, man, I wish I didn't say that.
And that's a bad feeling.
When I drank, I had that almost every morning.
And luckily I don't have it very much, but I think there is that internal compass and
(15:50):
when you have that healthy shame that you need to look at it.
Yeah, not that debilitating shame because I have that too, but I think there is a healthy
shame that you need to look at if you feel that and maybe talk with your sponsor or a
trusted friend to say, is there something valid here or am I overreacting or why am
(16:18):
I overreacting because have what have I triggered here?
Yeah, man, that is really Michelle.
That's a great point.
John Bradshaw talks about that, that there is toxic shame and there's healthy shame.
And you just gave another example of healthy shame, those things that help me set some
(16:41):
better boundaries for myself and to think before I speak sometimes.
I want to say again on YouTube, you can find John Bradshaw about shame and it is really
good.
I want to give you a couple of more on unhealthy boundaries.
(17:01):
One is letting others direct your life and another one is expecting others to feel your
needs automatically.
Or even know what your needs are without even expressing them.
There you go.
Exactly.
And that can get people in a lot of trouble and this comes into people pleasing too.
(17:24):
Sometimes we'll throw our boundary out the window just to please somebody else because
that need for it to be liked.
I don't have that much anymore.
Or that need to do anything in your power so they don't abandon you.
Absolutely.
Now how many times have people done that?
(17:46):
I know I've done it.
I've done it.
I've done it a lot before I got sober.
But that's just throwing away the boundary.
Sure it is.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Even if it's temporary.
Absolutely.
You usually don't have that boundary when you're doing it, when you're at that level.
For many of us, we don't have the awareness that we're even doing some of these things.
(18:09):
Did you know about people pleasing before you got into recovery?
I didn't.
I didn't know terms.
But you knew when you were doing it.
I knew concepts in the fact that I didn't know that what I do is called people pleasing.
But I knew that I wanted everyone to like me and I didn't want anyone to abandon me.
(18:31):
Right.
Good point, Tim.
I wasn't sure what to do the morning my boss walked in and the gist of the conversation
is none of your employees want to work for you anymore.
Well, okay, I guess I wasn't pleasing you and you are abandoning me.
(18:53):
But it didn't take a hold at that point in time because I was still actively drinking.
I was probably intoxicated when the conversation happened.
So it didn't take effect then.
It was only later in recovery learning about that.
I think I have to look at the people I'm attracting to because that's really important.
(19:18):
Who I'm attracting as friends, who I'm attracting in the program, who I'm attracting to date.
Because if you're attracting takers, you might be a giver.
And if you're attracting narcissists, you might be a giver.
Boy, now there is the truth.
I'm telling you.
(19:40):
Here's one that I hesitated on bringing this up today.
But being sexual for a partner, not for yourself.
Now I can say in my marriage, in the intimacy that we have, the boundaries we both have
is that we like pleasing the other one.
(20:00):
But at the same time, I still, there's certain things that sometimes you may not want to
have sex.
You're just not there.
You know, the intimacy for you right then, you've got other stuff going on.
And we all have our times.
We all have feelings about that.
And it's really important in the work that I do, work in family systems, when I'm dealing
(20:24):
with partners, the lack of intimacy in some of these relationships, it's really sad.
I think you said something in the middle there about talking about it.
I think if you can be honest and have these discussions, not in the bedroom, but outside
the bedroom, that's important.
(20:45):
Great, great.
And really understand what each other's needs are.
Sometimes I don't even know that we understand what our own needs are or what motivates that.
I had a really good sponsor and she used to say, what's your motivation?
What's your motivation?
I got so tired of hearing that, but it's so true because if you peel the onion back to
(21:08):
the real motivation, you can learn a lot.
Absolutely.
Thank you for that too.
My sponsor, Gilby, would always say to me, no matter what it was about, Rusty, what's
your motive?
Always look at your motive behind whatever's going on.
You may want to look good and make up, but what's your real motive going on here?
(21:33):
If you pinpoint that, you may not want to pursue that.
Have you found that true?
Absolutely.
And I was also sparked by something you said.
Because I think if you can talk about these things, you will learn... In sexual relationships,
(21:56):
there are imbalances in relationships too, just because of maybe you're a giver and you
need to learn to receive.
And so there may be imbalances-
Great point.
Or look like there are imbalances, but there are things that people need to learn to do.
Boy, that's a great point.
(22:16):
One other and then we can move on.
Expecting others to feel your needs automatically.
If you haven't told them what you need, people aren't mind readers.
Now a lot of people think they are, but they're not.
I mean, they can guess about what a person is feeling or if we can't communicate that,
(22:38):
and see that's setting the boundary too.
I felt for a long time that somebody else was responsible for making me happy and I
was wrong.
Happiness is an inside job and I am responsible for a lot of my own needs and feelings and
(23:00):
it's a crossing a boundary to even put that on somebody sometimes.
Absolutely.
Tim?
You know, I'm not sure what to call it.
I have an unrequested need that Janice understands just by my actions and that is based on her
(23:20):
past experience with her mother who had COPD as well.
We can just be sitting around and having a conversation and she will realize that I'm
having a hard time breathing.
And she just stops.
She just stops talking because she knows I have to concentrate on inhaling and exhaling
(23:47):
and that may go on for a couple minutes.
And when I start talking again, the conversation continues, but she acknowledges the fact that
I can't talk to you anymore.
I have to concentrate on this and she lets that happen.
And so I don't know what that unspoken need would be called, but it's there and it's
(24:13):
acknowledged and that's a healthy need and response to that need.
It's not unhealthy at all, but it's a very positive thing and it does not require stress
on my part to say, I can't breathe.
You got to stop talking because I can't even hear what you're saying.
(24:33):
I don't have to do that, but I don't know what that would be called.
I think that's the beautiful part of having an intimate relationship where you begin to
know each other on a level where you do recognize the other person's needs, but I don't think
that you can always rely on that.
(24:56):
I think communication still is an important part of the prescription.
Yeah.
I agree that the communication is important, but this is a learned behavior on her part
that when she sees this starting to happen, this is what her response needs to be.
(25:17):
Well part of that is a transference from her memory of her mom.
When she saw certain behavior, she knew what that was because she lived it.
So when she sees that behavior in you, she's assuming and after a while she feels like
she knows what it is.
So that can be good or at times as Michelle says, that could be a negative thing because
(25:43):
it may not be that at all.
May not be.
If we get into mind reading, we're in trouble.
And what you were talking about transference and being comfortable with things from your
past and thinking they're the same.
(26:04):
And I'm not talking about what you're talking about because I think what she's doing is
beautiful to help you.
But I sometimes think what's happening in the present is the same thing as happened
in the past and I am not operating correctly because they are different and I'm reacting
(26:29):
to something, to a memory, not what is really happening now.
And that can cause a lot of problems in any type of relationship.
And I don't think that's happening with you, Tim.
No, I didn't.
I didn't take it negatively.
Well on that point, let's talk a little bit and this there again has to do with boundaries.
(26:51):
It's called healthy interdependency.
Now I'm going to go ahead and read this.
It says, partners who go out of their way for each other are interdependent.
Only relatively healthy people are capable of interdependent relationships which involve
give and take.
It is not unhealthy to unilaterally give during a time when your partner is having difficulty.
(27:19):
You know your partner will reciprocate should the tables turn.
Interdependency also implies that you do not have to give until it hurts.
By comparison, in a codependent relationship, one partner does almost all the giving while
the other does almost all the taking almost all the time.
(27:44):
And a lot of people live in relationships just like that.
There again, it takes practice with some of this stuff.
A lot of these things that we're talking about on boundaries, we haven't practiced.
And then you have a boundary that you want to assist helpful to you, but to the person
(28:05):
that you're involved with, it's not.
What if they don't agree with that?
Because that can happen.
So what are you going to do?
Well, you're going to explain to them why you need that to happen.
And then if they don't want to go along with that, then you've got to make some decisions
(28:25):
on what your next point of reference might be, depending on the person that you're with.
I tend to repeat patterns and keep picking the same people with the same kind of boundaries.
It may get a little better or change, but I keep finding myself with similar people.
(28:45):
And I think that I have a default of feeling comfortable with that.
And I can get right in that groove again.
And it's really hard for me to jump out of that rut.
I laugh, I say, yeah, I get in a rut and I decorate it.
You got to be comfortable in your surroundings.
(29:05):
Yes, yes.
But it doesn't solve my boundary issue.
But it doesn't solve the boundary issue.
Okay, there again, interdependency.
We're going to talk a little bit about enabling.
And if you're enabling to say that you don't have some healthy boundaries is probably an
(29:27):
understatement because you don't enable if you have healthy boundaries.
I had a lady a while back, a mother, 70 something years old, and she came to me at my office
and it was about her son, her alcoholic son.
Her 60 year old?
(29:47):
Well, he's actually he's 42.
Okay.
And he keeps repeating the same behaviors over and over.
And she keeps repeating the same behaviors over and over.
He will tell her something.
He will rationalize it every time.
And she reacts the same way.
(30:08):
The last time she was in, we sit down and I wrote it out for her.
Even want to say now was I enabling her?
I don't know.
But I tell you what I was doing was I was trying to give this woman every opportunity
to change some behavior.
You can be aware of something for a long time and not change behavior.
(30:34):
This is true.
And it's kind of like what you said.
You want to decorate it after a while, right?
Yeah.
So I got a call about a week later and she said, well, he's back.
And I said, well, did you do what we talked about?
You didn't let him in.
She said, no, I'd let him in again.
(30:57):
And so I said, well, maybe you need to do this for yourself.
Maybe you need to go down and get a restraining order against him and go the legal route.
And she couldn't do that.
We see this all the time with alcoholics, addicts.
And usually, you can tell I'm hesitant to say this in a way, it's usually the mother
(31:24):
and it's more so with a son.
There's some kind of a bond there with them and they hold that so tightly to them.
They're just not able to turn that child down.
I have a son and that happened to me.
I wanted to help him and I didn't want him to fall down and get hurt, you know, metaphorically.
(31:51):
And so I was always there to pick up the pieces.
And what it does is it creates this dependency, which I like because I want my son to need
me and to be there and to keep coming back.
But then it and they have this dependency, which creates a resentment because they want
to be their own man, their own person.
(32:13):
And so it's a really given back and forth dynamic that is really unpleasant.
Absolutely.
And I'm not suggesting this with you and your son, but when it gets to a point that this
person that I was talking about, it's called emotional incest.
(32:34):
We're not talking about sexual here at all.
We're talking about emotional incest.
And men have it with a daughter.
They have the same thing.
And it is one of the most unhealthy places you can be.
It can happen in with your significant other too.
Oh, absolutely.
(32:56):
And you see this all the time with alcoholics and addicts and their families.
You know, I don't know that enabling is even the word for it.
I mean, it goes past that.
I want to read you some defenses that are used by the dependent whenever they're being
confronted.
Well, they'll start rationalizing right away.
(33:17):
And then the then the enabler will they'll believe it.
They want to believe it so badly that this might be the time or they will repress their
feelings.
They'll shut down.
And there's nothing worse for a codependent than somebody to shut down and not talk to
them.
They don't want to talk about they just want they're going to pursue that to get that person
(33:40):
to open up to them.
Or they will project.
You know, it's always about it's your fault.
You know, you've done this.
You've made me this way.
And then when they're doing that, the codependent will say, yeah, it's all my fault.
It's all my fault.
I know I've done this to you, son.
(34:00):
In fact, the more they become irresponsible, the more the codependent becomes overly responsible.
And the dependent less than because they know they're going to take care of it and they
don't even step up anymore.
Well, it's a boundary they've set with each other that I'm going to do this.
(34:20):
And now you will do this.
And nothing changes.
Well, that's not true.
It does change.
It gets worse.
You go deeper into the codependency.
And basically, in my case, it was like saying, son, I have no confidence that you're able
to do this at all.
(34:40):
So I'm going to take care of it for you.
And it really, really is hurtful.
Luckily, my son completely pushed me out of his life for a few years.
And that really hurt.
I did not like that.
And I don't even know that his boundaries are so healthy, but he really wanted to be
(35:01):
his own man.
And he wanted and I did it out of love.
I didn't do it out of malice or harm.
I thought I was doing the right thing.
But he is his own independent thinker, has a career, has his own family, and is quite
capable today.
(35:21):
So doesn't really need my help at all, unfortunately, but I wait until he asks, though, to give
it.
Yeah, if they ask, then you have a choice what you want to do and what you don't want
to do.
That's the way that a healthy boundary works.
You know, if he asks, you will reply.
And you may want to help him and you may not want to.
(35:42):
Correct.
But it's going to be your choice then.
I want to just go over three Cs.
You didn't cause the disease, you can't control the disease, and you sure can't cure the disease.
There's one other thing that I did want to mention today.
It's symptoms of failure to set boundaries.
(36:04):
Now this is going to sound kind of strange for some of you.
Depression, panic, passive aggressive behavior, of course, codependency.
Commodities with being alone.
Victim mentality.
(36:25):
Now every codependent I've ever met is a victim in some form.
Some of them are worse than others.
I was a victim when I got here.
When I got sober, when I walked in the doors, I was a victim of life.
Life had not treated me well.
Today I know that life treated me the way that I treated life.
(36:48):
My behaviors got me where I was at when I walked through the door of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Another one would be substance abuse and eating disorders.
Procrastination, impulsivity, and here's my big one for me.
Generalized anxiety.
(37:08):
I still have that going on in my life.
I used to think if I could just work the steps enough, if I could just do the right thing,
that anxiety.
What do you think causes that?
I think I came on the planet wired wrong or just wired a different way.
(37:28):
I really do.
Well that's what the doctor said about me.
Well.
Got a nervous baby here.
Now has it gotten better?
Of course it's better because a lot of things have changed in my life.
But that anxiety is.
I think that's one of the reasons I drank.
I was trying to self-medicate that anxiety.
(37:49):
And now I can notice it, name it, and I've got techniques.
I've got tools in my belt.
Breath work or call somebody.
But not just impulsively even get busy.
You know that's what I used to do.
I used to try to stay so busy I could stay ahead of it.
And that's one of the things that I have and I think that we both have this in common is
(38:13):
obsessive compulsive behaviors.
And that goes right along with the anxiety.
Well there are some things that I will set a boundary with today to keep me from that
compulsive or obsessive behavior that I can get into.
I'm into it before I even know.
Me too.
(38:35):
And I think everything you listed is a way for me, the ones that I participate in, are
a way for me to keep my environment safe and to have some sort of control over things.
Thank you.
It's been a boundary that we have set in our lives, but it really has it worked for us
(38:56):
for the most part.
Well I think the boundary we set did the opposite thing.
So we have to set a different boundary to get a different result.
Thank you.
Yes, exactly Michelle.
And some days I'm willing to do it and some days I'm not.
That's one of the main controversies that come up in my marriage is my obsessive compulsive
(39:19):
behavior.
Because I will start doing something and I'll do it till the cows come home and it's got
to be right.
But I'm aware of it and I can make a change, but some of them I still like.
Well and the bigger the stakes, like let's say your daughter's going to go to jail if
she does this, there's a whole different level of anxiety than if she leaves her sock on
(39:47):
the floor.
Correct.
So I mean I can deal with the sock, but I sometimes can't stop myself when the stakes
are really high.
Right.
Because I think I have some control to keep this event from happening and it creates a
lot of damage.
Correct.
But we do have that awareness now.
(40:09):
Some of these things take a lot to change that behavior.
For you, would you call it a self-defeating behavior?
Which one?
The obsessive compulsive.
I think it was two things happened.
One, I was born nervous, which I was trying to control and keep my environment safe, but
(40:32):
it also became a learned, it was reinforced with like the men I chose that were alcoholics.
I'm an alcoholic too, but I always chose alcoholics that were worse than me for some reason or
they got worse than me.
Maybe it was because I was enabling them and I kept taking the responsibility and they
(40:54):
just kept getting worse.
I don't know.
But it was a learned behavior and it became worse and worse on my end to just keep grabbing
and grasping and trying to control it and change it.
And it was very much a self-defeating behavior.
(41:15):
I can remember Mark M one time, he's a cornerstone in this town, he's no longer with us, got
me down on my knees, got a broomstick with a white t-shirt on it and said, you have got
to surrender.
And I waved that flag every day until, I mean, it was a high stake.
(41:35):
My ex-husband was drunk driving with my four-year-old son who could barely tell me what was happening
and the court system wouldn't do anything.
But I was getting sicker and sicker and worse and worse to the point, I mean, I was, I'm
really tall and six feet tall.
I was at like 135 pounds.
(41:56):
I wasn't sleeping.
And my enabling, my obsessive compulsive, the circular thoughts were taking me down.
And we don't know it, we don't know it, but virtually we don't have any healthy boundaries
(42:18):
for sure.
I was doing drive-bys by the house, looking for him at the bar.
I mean, I was about to really literally lose my mind.
And I was just worried about my son.
It was just on the surface for the love of my son.
Yes.
You know, I want to say this.
(42:39):
I love having Michelle on this podcast because she is so honest and open with her feelings
and her opinions.
I have such great respect for her.
Thank you.
So, we'll see you guys next time.
This has been a production of ChildrenOfChaos.net.
Children of Chaos is a forum to discuss topics related to and in concert with addiction and
(43:03):
recovery in America, is not affiliated with, endorsed, or financed by any recovery or treatment
program, organization, or institution.
Any views, thoughts, or opinions expressed by an individual in this venue are solely
that of the individual and do not reflect the views, policies, or position of any specific
(43:25):
recovery-based entity or organization.
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