US Perceptions of China’s Middle East Presence

The US has been examining China's expanding involvement in the Middle East from various perspectives, both within and beyond the region. A major topic of discussion has been the strained relationship between China and the US, which is having a significant impact on the strategic landscape of the Middle East and North Africa. To provide us with insight into how the US government perceives China's media interactions in the region, We are joined by Dr. Julian Gewirtz and Chris Backemeyer.‌ They will discuss certain topics such as the priorities of the US in the region as well as the opportunities and challenges for the cooperation of China and US in the MENA region.

Takeaways

The Priorities of United States in the MENA region

US perspective on China becoming a major player on geopolitics

The diplomatic effort of China in the MENA region

Opportunities and Challenges for cooperation of China and US in the MENA region

The impact of China-Iran relationship on the interest of US in the region

Quotes

The US is in favor of any action taken by China or other countries to lower tensions, decrease conflicts or prevent destabilizing actions in the region. - Chris

President Biden sees this decade as critical and has a strategy for China: invest, align, and compete. - Julian

The fundamental U.S. goal of our foreign policy is a free and open and prosperous and secure world. - Julian

Featured in the Episode

Jonathan Fulton
Nonresident Senior Fellow for Middle East Programs at the Atlantic Council. Assistant Professor of Political Science at Zayed University in Abu Dhabi
https://ae.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-fulton-2627414b
https://twitter.com/jonathandfulton

Julian Gewirtz
Deputy China Coordinator, U.S. Department of State
https://twitter.com/JulianGewirtz

Chris Backemeyer
Deputy Assistant Secretary for Assistance Coordination and Regional and Multilateral Affairs, US State Department’s Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs
https://twitter.com/chrisbackemeyer

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:29 US priorities on MENA region
06:55 China as a global actor
14:03 US’s view on the China’s growing presence in the region
20:26 China’s role in the diplomatic outreach in the region
22:22 Challenges for cooperation between China and US
28:40 Assessing the impact of the bilateral of China and Iran
31:30 Cooperation for China, US, and Middle East on climate change challenges
36:34 Final takeaways from our guests

Produced by Heartcast Media
www.heartcastmedia.com

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Everyone knows there are plenty of areasthat need cooperation on whether it is as
I mentioned before, a climate,global hell, water and food security.
That's just in addition to the traditionalconcerns of security and stability and energy energy
flows, and so certainly there areplenty of opportunity and whether there is the
capacity as a whole other question.Welcome to the China Mina Podcast. I'm

(00:34):
your host Jonathan Fulton, a nonresidentSenior Fellow at the Atlantic Council and a
political scientist outside university in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. Throughout this series,
we've looked at how China's growing presencein the Middle East looks from several
vantage points, both within the regionand beyond. One factor that has been
at the heart of all these conversationshas been the tense state of relations between

(00:57):
China and the US. Competition betweenthe two country is having a profound impact
on the strategic landscape for the MiddleEast North Africa region. Takeive US the
US government perspective on China Mina relations. I'm joined by doctor Julian Gowertz and
Chris Backhmeyer. Julian is Deputy Coordinatorfor Global China Affairs at the US State
Department, which he recently joined afterserving in the White House, where he

(01:19):
was Director for China on the NationalSecurity Council. He's written several books on
modern China, most recently Never TurnedBack China in the Forbidden History of the
nineteen eighties. Chris is Deputy AssistantSecretary for Assistant's Coordination and Regional and Multilateral
Affairs in the State Department's Bureau ofNear Eastern Affairs, where he oversees cross
cutting regional policy issues. Gentlemen,thanks for joining us. Thank it's great

(01:45):
to be here. Thank you,Jonathan. Great well, Chris. We'll
start with you before we talk aboutChina. Can you provide us with an
overview of US priorities in the region. Sure? Absolutely, and thank you
Jonathan for hosting. I'm excited tobe on your pod cast, one that
I know well and one that's reallyfirst in class when it comes to this
topic of China and in the Menaregion. The Middle East and North Africa

(02:08):
has and continues to be a greatstrategic importance to the United States. With
US to investments in human talent,they're critical to ensuring that both of our
both of our regions can partner togethereffectively. It's an important voice on global
issues like non proliferation. It's importantin helping to resolve long standing conflicts,
and it's important in maintaining the securityof sea lanes that safeguard the world's energy

(02:30):
resources. And so this is avery important relationship to the United States,
and I think that is something thatwas reinforced when President Biden visited Saudi Arabia
and July twenty twenty two where hereally took the opportunity to reinforce to the
region how important, how the strategicimportance of it to the United States.

(02:52):
In that trip he articulated sort offive key priorities that are probably worth taking
a quick a quick look at first. And I think first and foremust is
strengthening our partnerships within MINA, andthat's to help work together to advance on
global priorities, things that matter toall of us, to advance the rules

(03:13):
based order tackle global challenges that couldbe global health, non proliferation, cyber
issues, climate change, and climatechange. I think is a particularly good
example of one that we work togetheron the region because in the MENA region
is so acutely aware of the changingclimate of food and water, insecurity,
and the need to transition to adifferent, to a new greener economy.

(03:36):
And so these are areas where wethink we can continue to partner and build
on the long standing relationships that we'vehad with the region. The second priority
that the President laid out is onethat's been enduring for a long time,
which is which is deterrence in defensecooperation to ensure that no foreign or regional
powers can jeopardize freedom of navigation orfrankly dominate others in the region through military

(03:58):
build ups, encouragion, or threats. And I think we all know that
this is a region where these sortsof threats have emanated regularly over the years,
and one where we have been committedthrough our security partnerships around the region
to to help to help bring stabilityand security to the region. Um.
You know, the most obvious manifestationof that, one of only three global

(04:23):
US Navy fleets stationed abroad is inBahrain. We have tens of thousands of
US forces there and across the ArabianPeninsula, and you know, a clear
demonstration of our of our commitment.You know, we've as you know,
we've demonstrated that through our our globalcoalition to defeat ISIS and a major US
and global effort to provide security tothe region. The third principle that President

(04:47):
Biden laid out is one of tryingto de escalate the many conflicts building on
the second of providing security and stabilityis to try to in a clear eyed,
in a proactive way, to tryto deact, de escalate many of
the of the conflicts that plague theregion. You've seen already our efforts to

(05:09):
try to build a cease fired amore permanent piece inside Yemen, and that's
the sort of thing where in ourpolicy we're trying to or one of the
things our policy we're trying to accomplish. Fourth, and this is one that
we've really put a lot of emphasison recently, is regional integration. The
Middle East is the least integrated regionin the world. It has the most

(05:30):
expensive and the slowest trade. Itis hampered in development, is hampered in
security cooperation by not working by thecountry's not working together in an integrated,
in efficient way. And so we'vereally tried hard to build on that and
to do more in support of furtherintegrating the region. For the you for
the sake of building prosperity and stabilityin the Middle East and North Africa.

(05:57):
And then fifth and last, ofcourse, a major priority of the United
States is that we'll continue to promotehuman rights in the region, accountable governance
and all of the values enshrined inthe in the UN Charter, promote the
rule of law. And this isa long standing, long standing priority of
the United States, both in ourdiplomacy and in our in our programs.
So I think that's a long wayof kind of going through, but but

(06:19):
clearly evidence that you know, theUnited States sees a lot of strategic value
in United States, we have we'llplace a high degree of importance on our
partnerships and our relationships that we havein the region. Thanks Chris. That
was a really good overview because youknow, you hear a lot living here
in the region. There's a lotof questions about the US commitment. And
when you when you go through thislist and you talk about all the different

(06:39):
things in America is actually doing inthe region, really it's home that you
know a lot of this um theseconcerns about what the US is doing here
are get get very simplified pretty fast, because because you guys are involved on
a lot of different um regional issues. Uh, Julian, let's get the
China site into things here before wetalk about how the US governments. He's
trying to region, just we've gotto look at in the global context.

(07:01):
We can't look at China and isolationin specific parts of the world because I
think typically people look at it globallyfrom the US government, So, how
does see China as a global actor? How does it challenge US interests?
And what does it mean for USpreferences of global order? Great, well,
thanks so much. I just wantto echo what Chris said. It's
really a pleasure to be here andthis you know in this podcast series which

(07:26):
has which has done great work,and you know, I think to answer
your question maybe worth starting by bytaking one further step back and saying the
fundamental US goal of our of ourforeign policy is a free and open and
prosperous and secure world. And that'sa goal that we have in common with
countries around the world. And whatwe've said and want to sort of explain

(07:48):
a bit today is that China,the People's Republic of China PRC for short,
is the only competitor that we seeon the strategic landscape with the intent
and increasingly the capability to reshape thatinternational order in ways that affect the goal
again of a free and open andprosperous and secure world. And so when

(08:13):
we talk about international order, whatwe're talking about is the system of agreements
and principles and institutions that were createdby countries coming together after two World wars
in the twentieth century really to managethe relations between states and prevent conflict and
uphold uphold rights. And so thosefoundational documents like the UN Charter, the

(08:37):
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that'swhere we see these fundamental principles like self
determination, sovereignty, peaceful settlement ofdisputes, and again, you know,
these are reflections of the world's sharedaspirations and they produced, you know,
pretty extraordinary results avoiding another World warin the decade since, avoiding armed con

(09:00):
between nuclear powers, billions of peoplelifting themselves out of poverty, advances in
human rights. And so what SecretaryBlincoln has said is that our goal here
is not just to preserve this order, but also to modernize it and ensure
it represents the interests of all nationsso that it can address new global challenges,
whether it's climate change or pandemics likeCOVID nineteen. And the China challenge

(09:26):
really sits at the center of that. China's not the only pressing strategic challenge
we face. Obviously, Russia's aggressionis another acute challenge to the international order,
among others. But since we're heretoday to talk about China, let
me just say a few more thingsabout what the stakes are here and how
the US government is approaching it.At bottom, Beijing's vision is of a

(09:50):
world where might makes right, andthat vision, if actualized, would really
move us away from those universe sovalues that have sustained so much of the
world's progress over the past seventy fiveyears. And I'd note China, of
course, has itself benefited from thestability and the opportunity that this order provides.

(10:15):
But it's striking that rather than usingits power to reinforce those principles and
institutions that kind of enable everyone's success, Beijing is undermining them fundamentally. Over
the past decade, the PRC hasbecome more repressive at home and more coercive
abroad. These are facts your listenersare obviously familiar with. It's true in

(10:41):
the Indo Pacific region, it's truein the Mina region and beyond. It
really is a global challenge. Sowhen we talk about US China policy,
that's the fundamental challenge that the UnitedStates and other countries around the world are
responding to that shift in the PRC'sbehavior, both at home and especially abroad.

(11:07):
This is an intense strategic competition,but the United States is committed to
managing it responsibly, and one waythat we do that is by maintaining open
lines of communication with the PRC,you know, and happy to talk more
about that later if there's of interest. The other fundamental strategic premise here is

(11:28):
that we cannot rely on Beijing tochange its trajectory. So our objective is
really to shape the strategic environment aroundBeijing, around China to advance that vision
I've been describing of an open andinclusive international system. President Biden's view is

(11:48):
that this decade will be decisive inshaping the terms of that competition and many
other challenges, and the strategy thatwe've put forward for our approach to the
China challenge in this decisive decade,it really boils down to three words,
invest, align, and compete,and I'll just briefly say, you know

(12:09):
a bit about each of those.You know, this is investing in the
foundations of our strength here at home, our competitiveness, our innovation, our
democracy. And I just note thatis a bipartisan agenda. It's critical to
emphasize that. Second, aligning ourefforts with our networks of allies and partners
around the world, so that we'reacting with common purpose, common cause,

(12:33):
and then harnessing those two key assetscompeting with China to defend our interests and
our vision for the future. Andwe're quite confident in our strengths in approaching
this challenge. Let me just sayone more thing, which is, you
know, we don't expect every countryto have the exact same assessment of China
that we do. Our goal reallyis to give countries better choices, so

(12:56):
that, for example, the onlyoption isn't you know, an opaque investment
that leaves countries in debt, orharms the environment or makes it harder for
countries to exercise their sovereignty. Andwe've heard firsthand, I've heard firsthand.
I'm sure all if you have aboutsome of the buyer's remorse that these deals
can leave behind. There really isa growing convergence about the need to approach

(13:22):
relations with Beijing with a very realistic, clear eye approach. And you know,
many of our partners know from painfulexperience. You know that Beijing can
come down hard when when they makechoices it dislikes, and that really just
reinforces that core point why it's soimportant for us to be focused on strengthening

(13:43):
the rules and principles that should benefitall nations, because that is what has
enabled the prosperity and security that wereally hold dear, so let me pause
there, thanks, okay, Sogoing on to the Middle East North Africa
region, the US obviously has beenthe most significant extra regional actor for decades.

(14:03):
The US has deep political, economic, security and people to people cooperation
with countries all over the region.China, on the other hand, is
a relative newcomer until now. It'sinterested in primarily economically focused, with a
comparatively shell of footprint on other areaslike diplomacy and policy and security. How
does the US perceive China's growing presencein the Middle East? And maybe Chris

(14:24):
will start with you on this oneand then will come to you, Julian
Jonathan. That's a great question,and I think, you know, really
illuminated by what you said earlier onabout you know, really the United States
commitment to the region being called intoquestion on pretty frequently as the result of
some of the sort of global narrativesthat are out there, and I think

(14:45):
that's something that we need to continueto work on. I've traveled around the
region and talked a lot about thisparticular topic, but also, you know,
the sorts of things that we canand are doing for the for Middle
East, North African kind trees withregard to our foreign assistance and and UH
and and lots of other initiatives.And it's clear that you know, the
United States has a very deep,broad and long standing history, but it's

(15:09):
one that we can't take for grantedum and one that we need to continue
to nurture UH. And so Ithink one of our objective is one of
the things we have tried to dois to reinforce some of the things the
United States has done, and we'llcontinue to do and and compare them face
to face with what that with whatthe PRC does. For example, when
you look at economic investment which isreally the biggest driver of economic growth around

(15:31):
the world. The United States isinvested three times more than the PRC and
MINA over the last ten years,and our investment in the region grew faster
than in any other region in theworld. So this idea that you know,
we're sort of turning our attention elsewhere, UM, it doesn't always hold
up when it comes to, youknow, our foreign assistance to the to
the Middle East and North Africa.We actually provide twice as much financial assistance

(15:54):
in the form of you know,economic aid and uh and foreign aid to
the Middle East and North Africa thenthe PRC give to the entire world in
twenty twenty and uh, you know, and that I think those levels are
about what they are today. Wehave really we have really strong cultural ties.
We have two million Americans that areeither born in the in the region
or have some sort of mena andancestry. Um. We have uh,

(16:18):
you know, one point four millioni think Middle Eastern and North African students
that have studied in the United Statesin recent decades. And so there's a
lot of people to people ties,a lot of cultural ties, and that's
something that we want to continue toto build on UM, but that doesn't
mean that you know, for it'squite obvious, so that that doesn't mean
that the PRC is not going tohave a role in the region. And

(16:41):
we already it's already clear that youknow, the PRC has version, economic,
technological and political ties that have beengrowing UH in recent years. And
you know, I'm sure we willcome back to it and want to discuss
a little more detail. But therecent announcement of the of the agreement between
Saudi and Iran that UH that wasin part facilitated by the Chinese is something

(17:03):
that UM that demonstrates sort of theirdiplomatic role in the region and something that
you know, overall could be anet positive if they're able to hold the
iranience to to their side of thedeal. At the same time, we've
continue to express our concerns with ourpartners about the things that we that we
do have concerns about, whether itis on the technological front, data harvesting

(17:26):
and things like that that come fromthere from their use of technology and the
security the very real sovereignty and securityconcerns that come from can come from engaging
or from from adapting or adopting PRCtechnology, and so that's something that we're
going to continue to continue to talkabout. We want to make sure that
our partners are in the driver's seat, that they are the ones deciding what

(17:49):
their partnership with the Chinese will looklike in the same way that they decide
what their partnership with the United Stateslooks like. We've always had, uh,
you know, a partnership that isfor mutual benefit in one that we
hope that will also be the casewhen they engage with the PARC. That's
great, Julian, do you wantto say take a Craig Adam sure?

(18:10):
I mean, you know, Ithink I think Chris's answer is is terrific
and agree with every word. Youknow, I guess the only thing that
I would say is um From afrom a China focused perspective, we see
that China sort of has a veryclearly stated goal which is to make countries
more dependent on China as China makesitself less dependent on the world, and

(18:36):
that paradigm, which is explicit fromfrom the PRC, this isn't you know,
reading between the lines, is Ithink a paradigm that gets to the
core of the concerns that Chris washighlighting about why some of these engagements need
to be approached with with real scrutiny, and you know, need to be
approached with a real sense of thoughtand care about their implications for uh,

(19:03):
for sovereignty, for ability to makechoices free from coercion, um, you
know, over the near, mediumand long terms. So um, you
know, I think that's an areawhere we have constructive conversations around the world
where you know, there's been areal uh, you know, growth and
understanding around the world. And we'refrankly, you know, as I alluded

(19:25):
to earlier, China's behavior has uhdriven increases in understanding and countries around the
world because countries have had this veryvery direct experience and that's true uh there
uh you know, in in inthe Middle East and North Africa, and
that's true around the world. Thanksguys. You know, um, Chris,
while you're going through the list ofthings the US does here, I

(19:48):
kept thinking, um, and youknow, just friendly criticism from a neighbor,
but I think the US doesn't reallydo a great job of messaging what
it does here. It's so oftenreduced to security. You know, you
keep hearing this binary in the MiddleEast that the US does the security and
China does the economy. And youknow, as you're describing all the investment
in the trade and the education ofthe people to people stuff and the cultural
stuff and and and foreign aid.It's it's really important, I think that

(20:12):
people in the region see this,you know, deeper level of engagement.
UM. You mentioned the recent UMSaudi Iran um cooling down of temperatures.
We're recording this on March twenty second, so this this still is somewhat of
new stories. So I want tomaybe talk about this for a second if

(20:34):
we can. UM, how's thisrecent diclosure of China's mediation between Saudi and
Iran likely to alter how the USviews China's engagement in the region, And
how does the US expect China's rolein the region to evolve based on this
diplomatic outreach. Chris, do youhave any thoughts on this one? Yeah?
Absolutely, you know, quickly toyour to your first point. We'll

(20:56):
take the criticism from friends anytime,and we can always do a better job
of talking about what we're doing,whether it's in the Middle East or anywhere
else around the world. And that'ssomething that we always need to do more
of and do better of. AndI think you make a really good point
in that regard with respect to theSaudi Iran dial I think, as I
mentioned, you know, anything thatthat China or any other country can do

(21:19):
to reduce tensions, d escalate conflict, or you know, curb destabilizing activities
in the region is a good thing. In the United States supports that.
That's our goal for the region,and we are always happy when other global
partners decide to push in the samedirection and support that goal as well.
We've long encouraged dialogue between the Saudisand Uranians. It is, you know,

(21:41):
for obvious reasons, would be difficultfor the United States to to be
in the middle of something like that, given the fact that we don't have
diplomatic relations ourselves with the Iranian government. So the Chinese here played played an
important role. Now the question isreally what happens next. Will the Iranians
abide by this, Will they reducethe level of illicit activity, elicit arm

(22:06):
shipments that it they threatened the securityof the region and of their neighbors.
Will they just continue their meddling inother countries? That's a real in particular
in Saudi Arabia that it has causedquite a bit of of irritation and concern
from the Saudiast. You know,we're looking forward to seeing how this plays

(22:26):
out. And I think it's Ithink it's important that China has taken responsibility
for this and once to try toto fix it, and they will be
very important for them to keep thereto keep the pressure on the Iranians to
follow through on it. So Ithink it's I think it's a wait and
see, we'll see how this howthis thing proceeds. Yeah, I couldn't
agree more. I mean, livinghere in the region, I think everybody

(22:48):
just kind of had a big,long exhale when this was announced and thought,
you know, thank god, youknow, all little space to reduce
tensions. And I agree with yourpoint that China has the diplomatic capital sides
to engage in ways that other greatpowers couldn't. So you know, it's
really good to see something positive.We don't always hear about a lot of
positive news about diplomacy in the region, so we'll take what we can get.

(23:12):
M One thing that's always struck melooking closely at China and the region
as I do. It's China's deepest, deepest relations in the Middle East tend
to line up very neatly with theUS. I mean, their deepest partners
tend to be US allies or partnerslike the UAE and Saudi and Egyptum.
This political cooperation between China and yourallies and partners, I think presents pretty

(23:36):
interesting opportunity. Of course, Irealized that tensions between China and the US
might make that a little harder toachieve. But is this an opportunity to
coordinate regional policies with allies and partnersand China and try to solve regional issues
together, or does it present actuallya challenge to us? Chris, maybe
you first, and then and thenJulian. Sure, thanks Jonathan, and

(23:59):
I think I'll be really interested myselfto hear what Julian has to say on
this, as we balance cooperation withcompetition, and that's I think key to
that when it comes to our regionin particular. You know, we have
you know, long time security,economic, cultural relationships with the region,
and I think, as I saidbefore, as long as we are continuing

(24:21):
to push towards the same goals ofprosperity for the region's security stability that in
and of itself will be it shouldbe in both of our country's interests.
Neither of us have an interest inan unstable Middle East. Neither of us
have an interest in a and aneconomically declining Middle East. We both have
an interest in ensuring that there's prosperity, that they're free the free flow,

(24:45):
free flow of energy to global markets, and so uh, you know,
if that's a space where where wehave common cause, that's great. I
think there's a lot of things thatthat the PRC will need to continue to
do better though before we get tothat point, and you know, as
as Julian laid out, some ofthe concerns that we do have, those
are things that that we're going toneed to see see differently. I don't

(25:07):
know that the you know, sortof going back to our previous question that
this one, uh, this onediplomatic development really um is evidence that there's
going to be a broader change orthat we're going to really be able to
to uh to cooperate in meaningful waysin the region. But but everyone knows
there are plenty of areas that needcooperation on whether it is, as I

(25:27):
mentioned before, a climate, globalhealth, water, and food security.
Um U, that's just in additionto the traditional concerns of security and stability
and energy energy flows and so uh, certainly there's plenty of opportunity and whether
there is uh the capacity as awhole other question. That sounded really good
from Middle East side, but Ibet Julian, coming from the China side,

(25:49):
you might have you might have adifferent take. So I'd love to
hear your your your position on this. Thanks. No, I think I
think you know, I fully agreewith with what said, and would you
know, just say a few otherthings. You know, there there are
areas where we have overlapping interests,where our interests coincide. Uh. Those

(26:10):
areas in some cases are regional securitychallenges in other cases or transnational challenges,
uh you know, uh, youknow, like like climate, like global
health security and and food security andmany others. And in those areas,
it's important that the United States andChina is two of the world's the largest

(26:30):
economies, largest emitters, and muchelse besides, are able to uh you
know, effectively coordinate and take actiontogether when when appropriate. And so you
know, i'd say that from thatstarting point. Our view is that it's
critical to have this kind of intensivediplomacy between our two countries, between the

(26:51):
United States and China um and ourgoal here really is, you know,
this is a competition, and webelieve it should not and need not veer
into conflict. And it's a competition. Where As I've said, we have
some areas of overlapping interest and forthe world's benefit, but the world's expects
of us is that we're able towork together in those areas, and so

(27:15):
we have been I think quite quitecommitted to maintaining those open lines of communication
with China, you know, multiplelevels. Obviously, President Biden met with
President she in Bali last November.Secretary b Lincoln met with State Councilor Wangi
in Munich just last month. WhatSecretary b Lincoln has said about that is
diplomacy with the PRC is how wehave better understanding of each other's intentions in

(27:41):
each other's perspective, make clear ourconcerns obviously, whether that's the PARC surveillance
balloon, or PRC support for Russia, or PRC actions that undermine peace and
stability in the Taiwan Strait, butalso how we talk about where there are
those areas of of shared interest.You know, I'd say, uh,

(28:02):
you know, it remains to beseen whether Beijing is prepared to continue down
that course that are two leaders laidout when they when they met in Bali,
and that we've been alluding to atvarious points in this conversation. But
as Chris said, we really dothink that is in and would be in
everyone's best interest in the in theminor region and frankly around the world.

(28:29):
Yeah, agreed. Um, wewere looking at China Runic a couple of
monuths ago, and I want tocome back to that because it's always a
topic here in the region. WhereverI go, people want to talk about
this, this bilateral It causes alot of concern in the US. I
know it caused a lot of concernin the Middle East. So I'm just
wondering how you guys assess it arehow are they impacting us interests in the

(28:52):
region and the interests of your alliesand partners in the region. Chris,
Yeah, Jonathan, I you know, I've heard those concerns too, and
my uh and my travels around theregion, and that's uh, you know,
I think a really an important pointto look at. I mean,
we have real concerns about I've hadfor a long time, real concerns about

(29:12):
Chinese relationship with Iran, and it'sand it's frankly, it's help and allowing
Iran to continue it's destabilizing activities aroundthe region. I was deeply involved in
the Iran nuclear negotiations in the Obamaadministration and that Chinese were part of the
P five plus one and played aproductive role in that in that diplomacy.

(29:33):
But at the same time, youknow, as you do today, continue
to buy oil from Iran, whichlessens some of the pressure for Iran to
make concessions with aspect to its nuclearprogram. UH. It continued to sell
weapons millions of dollars a year toIran, UH, you know, both
conventional and for its missile program,which are deeply concerning, and things that
are that that are controlled through multilateralfour around the world. And so you

(29:57):
know, this just comes back toagain, you know, we're obviously supportive
of things that can be done thatare positive for the region, but there's
a lot of things, a lotof things that are not positive. They're
not helping when it comes to Iran'sdestabilizing activities that China needs to do differently,
and that's uh, you know thatin particular in the space of of

(30:18):
helping the Iranians procure controlled technologies isone in particular that it plays a real
destabilizing role in something that I thinkthe region, the regions aware of.
Yeah, yeah, agreed. Youknow, we've been talking mostly about how
tensions between China and the US featurein the Middle East. I've been traveling

(30:41):
around the region quite a bit thepast few months talking about these issues,
and one of the things that keepscoming up is regional actors or commentators or
just you know, just profts orstudents I'm talking to keep hearing the same
message. People are worried about thisgreat power competition. They're they're focusing in

(31:02):
the Middle East mostly on domestic developmentagendas, whether it's the Saudi Vision twenty
thirty or the Age of Vision orNew Kuwait. You know, development is
what concerns governments and people in theregion. They're worried about developing sustainable economies.
And in a lot of these cases, China scene is a very important
actor. You've mentioned early on howChina is such a big trade partner,

(31:22):
does a lot of investment, doesa lot of contracting tech, so local
actors don't really see it the sameway they often see China's pretty important partner
in a lot of these these issuesas they do the US as well.
So are there ways going back tothis cooperation idea or coordination idea? Are
there areas where the US and Chinacan cooperate to help Middle East actors achieve
these goals? M Julian QUI,could you take a shot at this one?

(31:48):
Sure, you know, And I'dsay, first, you know,
just to go back to some ofthose really I think quite quite important statistics
that Chris laid out at the beginningabout the depth of US engagement in the
region. You know, I think, uh these sort of the false binary
there and and some of the falsenarratives um are important to push back on,

(32:09):
uh in in you know, nouncertain terms. And another important false
narrative to push back on, youknow, is this idea which I think
is implicit in in some of whatwe see that uh, you know,
China somehow, uh you know,doesn't interfere in country sovereignty, that these
these deals, these economic opportunities,uh, you know, don't don't come

(32:34):
with strings. And you know,I think we we just have seen so
clearly, uh that that despite astated commitment to you know, quote unquote
non interference, uh you know,over and over again around the world,
the PRC is willing to use forcoercion uh seemingly benign economic uh connections.

(32:59):
Uh. And as I said before, is particularly focused on how it can
leverage and create in order to leveragenew forms of dependency in the economic and
technological and security domains. But tothe core of your question, you know,
I think there certainly are areas wherethe United States and China can coordinate

(33:21):
and can cooperate. We've discussed anumber of them, uh, you know,
including as I said before, youknow, both regional security challenges and
transnational challenges like climate. Uh.You know, as as Chris mentioned at
the beginning, those those climate challenges, you know, are are real and
pressing for the region, as theyare for for us and for our friends

(33:43):
and partners around the world. Um. But I think it's important to note
that, uh, you know,while well, we really are committed to
working with all countries around the worldto address the climate challenge, we've also
seen sometimes cancerning willingness by the PRCto to treat that desire as some sort

(34:05):
of of leverage. You know.Uh, it was frankly pretty irresponsible last
summer that before cop and charm Uh, you know, the PRC went through
you know, we went through thisperiod where the PARC suspended climate cooperation with
the United States quite publicly. Um. And you know, frankly, what

(34:28):
we said at the time and istrue is you know, that didn't punish
us, That punished the world,That punished countries around the world. UM.
So I would just go back tothat core point that we really need
to keep these channels of communication open. Uh. The world, I think
you know has conveyed that that's theexpectation that countries have around the world that

(34:49):
as the two largest emitters, Uh, you know, we will we will
be talking, we will be engagingconstructively, and we will be sort of
solutions and outcome oriented. And youknow, and I think that message is
something that we hear loud and clear, and that we hope very much that
Beijing also here's loud and clear andaffects its behavior because, as you say,

(35:10):
countries around the region, countries aroundthe world are concerned and you know,
do want do want to see thathappening? Great? Thanks Chris,
Do you have any thoughts on thisone? You know, I think Julian
really hit this on the head andI'm glad you brought up the climate change
example, because that's one where,especially the Middle East, we need Chinese

(35:34):
leadership. And in the Middle Eastyou see really some of the worst effects
of climate change water scarcity, thesereally extreme rising temperatures, and those are
going to lead to conflicts, They'regoing to lead to migration, They're going
to lead to you know, they'regoing to disproportionately affect women and girls,
and so the people in the regionare going to see these effects and they

(35:54):
need not just the United States tobe a leader on this, they need
the Chinese to be a leader inaddressing climate change as well. And obviously
the region itself, as a majorenergy producer, has a role to play
in mitigating against climate change, butis also going to be on the front
lines of adapting to climate change.And so um, you know, with
COP last year in Egypt is Julianmentioned, and with with COP twenty eight

(36:16):
and new violator this year, youknow, this is an area where we
should do where we the United Statesare committed to doing all we can to
to come back climate change and wouldwould hope the PRC would be doing the
same thing. M absolutely. Okay, Well, this has been really interesting.
We're we're we're running down here.You guys are have no shortage of

(36:38):
opportunities to talk to folks in DC, but we've got a lot of listeners
who are here in the Middle East. So any closing remarks for just a
broader audience, I'm Julian. Wouldyou like to give some of your thoughts?
Thank you, and no, thisis a's been a really really I
think fascinating and fruitful discussion Jonathan,and really grateful to for doing And I

(37:00):
think the final thing I would justsay is, um, you know,
uh my, my work focuses onChina, but it's so clear around the
world as I travel and talk tocounterparts, you know, US partnerships are
anchored in the region, in theMina region there. Uh you know,
as much as our conversation today isabout China, our approach to the region

(37:22):
is about the region and about countriesin the region. And so to me,
you know, I think it's justimportant to reinforce that we're talking about
the challenges that China poses. UM, But we're really here to strengthen our
partnerships with countries around the world.And I guess the last thing I'd say
is, you know, sometimes itcan seem like talking about the China challenge

(37:45):
is far away, uh, youknow, or is a sort of a
you know, a distant matter,either in time or in geographic space.
UM, But it really isn't faraway. For for the Mina region.
It Uh, it matters for everycountry, and that's why we're so focused
on engaging more deeply with every country. And when I say it matters,

(38:07):
it's you know, it matters inthe United Nations, it matters in bilateral
and multilateral settings. It matters forthe global economy and for so many of
the transnational challenges that we've been talkingabout. So I think when we talk
about China as a global challenge,and when we talk about China and the
Minor Region, we're really talking aboutsomething that I hope feels like a like

(38:30):
a you know, if not akitchen table issue, at least you know,
what we would call a main streetissue, an issue that matters for
ordinary people and for governments in countriesaround the world and so let me just
stop there. Thanks. It's agreat point. You know, like talking
to people here, China still feelsfar away. It feels like, you
know, an Asian thing that youknow, people don't really experience China as

(38:55):
part of their everyday lives. Butit's it's certainly in the region become it's
become that even if it's not obvious. Thanks for that, Julian, Chris
Jonathan. That's a great point.And I think I build on that on
sort of my closing remarks, whichis that you know, we in the
United States, you know, needto continue to do a better job of

(39:16):
talking to the people of the region, and we are going to be uh,
We're going to do that. We'regoing to be committed to helping to
resolve challenges in the region. IfChina seems far away, the United States
needs to seem close. And we'vegot a lot of ties through the region,
whether they are cultural ties, educationalties, financial economic ties, and

(39:37):
security ties. We've invested a lotover those in those ties over the years,
going both directions. We have alot of investment. We have a
lot of ties here in the UnitedStates from the Middle East and North Africa,
and so I think our goal isto continue to build on the closeness
of our relationship regardless of whether regardlessof whether the PRC is going to be
involved, I mean or not.That is something that's of course strategic interests

(40:00):
in the United States and of courseinherent cultural and economic and interests for the
United States. And so that's somethingthat we need to continue to aid,
not take for granted, but bereally prioritize in our in our outreach and
in the connections between our between ourregions. Great point. I like that
point about, you know, focusingon the region regardless of other regional actors.

(40:23):
I think that's something folks in theregion really like to hear. Gentlemen,
that's been really helpful. I knowyou're both really busy, guys.
I appreciate you taking the time.I'm sure you've given our audience a lot
to think about. And yeah,really thanks for coming on the show.
Thank you, Jonathan, thank youfor having us, great to talk.
Thanks guys to our listeners, thanksagain for joining us, follow us on

(40:45):
social media, subscribe, view andrate us on iTunes, Spotify, as
did sure where you get your podcast, and we'll see you soon. Produced
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