What happens when a professional ballet dancer, sidelined by a significant knee injury, reinvents himself as a filmmaker? Listen to our latest episode of the Cinematography for Actors podcast as we sit down with Cameron Auble-Branigan and Danny Mooney.
Cameron shares his compelling journey from the rigid discipline of ballet to the creative freedom of filmmaking. He discusses how he overcame setbacks to not only find new avenues in the art of ballet, but also to inspire his short film “Sandpaper.” While Danny Mooney discusses the impact of a supportive upbringing and how it influenced his multifaceted career. He recounts his transition from engineering to theater and film, emphasizing the importance of mentorship and sharing emotional experiences.
The episode delves into the technical aspects behind “Sandpaper,” highlighting the collaboration of old film school friends and the use of specific cameras and lenses to achieve a unique visual style. It also covers the realistic portrayal of ballet, the making of the film, and plans to expand “Sandpaper” into a series.
For our listeners, CFA’s teamed up with We Make Movies to get you a discount on production management services, including access to comprehensive production insurance and workers' comp for your next shoot.
Visit wemakemovies.org/insurance and use code CFA23 on your intake form for 10% off your quote.
Calling all actors! Take 25% off your membership at WeAudition with code: CFA25
Website: www.cinematographyforactors.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cinematographyforactors
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cinematographyforactors
Cinematography for Actors is a community aimed at bridging the gap between talent & crew through our weekly podcast & community events. Our weekly show supports the filmmaking community through transparent, honest & technically focused interviews with the goal of elevating the art of effective storytelling.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In my pre-professional journey when I
suffered a knee injury rightwhen I was getting an
opportunity to go to a veryprestigious ballet school.
And what did that do?
What was the fallout of that?
And the people in my life?
How did that shape how Iapproached the next chapter?
(00:23):
Spoiler alert, and I think wejust said I had a full,
wonderful career.
Yeah, just because there was abig setback in the beginning
didn't dictate what the rest ofmy history was moving forward.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
This is the Cinematography for Actors
podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
More than a podcast.
Cinematography for Actors is avibrant community devoted to
bridging the gap between talentand crew.
Each week, our show offerstransparent, insightful
conversations with industryleaders.
We unveil the magic behind thescenes, from candid discussions
about unique filmmakingprocesses to in-depth technical
exploration.
Join us in unraveling theintricacies of filmmaking, one
(01:07):
episode at a time.
It's more than just cameras andlenses we aim to inspire,
educate and empower as we peelback the curtain on the art of
effective storytelling.
Now on to the episode.
Hi everybody.
Welcome to an episode of theCinematography for Actors
podcast.
I am your host, hayley Royal.
I am joined today with a pairthat I'm so excited to have here
(01:28):
, because we met at Mammoth andI said come and we'll do your
episode, and then we ran out oftime, we had to leave, and so
I'm finally getting to make itup to you guys.
I'm really excited.
Most of the creative team of ashort film called Sandpaper,
cameron Alba-Brannigan, correct.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, you did.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Cameron Alba-Brannigan and Danny Mooney.
Hi guys.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hello, thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you so much for joining me and thank you for
being so patient, because it wasmonths ago that I promised you
an episode.
It's okay.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I'm really excited we're warmer now.
This is.
There's less than a few of snowon us Last time we saw each
other.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
We were all in big coats.
Very big coats.
Yeah, and now it's like a nicebreeze.
Well, not anymore, because Ihad to close the doors, but
there was a nice breeze andwe're all in much less clothing,
although you're still in snowboots.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
He's always in.
I'm from Michigan.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Are you a boot boy?
I guess Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Boot boy Danny's a boot boy.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I'm going to call you a boot boy from now on.
Boot boy, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I love it.
So, guys, let's get intosandpaper.
Cameron, you created this youwrote it, I did.
You already know that I'm soexcited about people who have an
idea and then make it.
This is so exciting for me aswell, because this was not your
(03:01):
original career goal to be afilmmaker to be an actor.
You had a different career goal, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, I did.
What was it?
So I used to be a professionalballet dancer.
I toured the US for about 10years and working for about a
dozen.
I was kind of a journeyman interms of all the different
companies I guested with andthat was my career up until
about a couple of years ago, andit's only been the past couple
(03:30):
of years since COVID that I wenta full not 180, because I
really feel like there's a lotof parallels between acting,
filmmaking as well as the danceworld.
And yeah, I'm here, I'm in lanow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Acting, writing, producing, yeah, all the things
you're doing it all so you acted, you wrote, you produced and
you produced sound paper, and itis a story of your life,
correct?
So from watching this film, Ican guess what happened in your
career, um, and why why you?
Felt you wanted to make a shift, or did this shift come after?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay.
So so it's a time in mypre-professional journey when I
suffered a knee injury rightwhen I was getting an
opportunity to go to a veryprestigious ballet school, and
what did that do?
What was the fallout of that?
And the people in my life, how,how, how did that shape how I
(04:33):
approached the next chapter?
Um, spoiler alert and I thinkwe just said I had a full,
wonderful career.
Yeah, um, dancing in some ofthe biggest uh venues in the
United states.
So, um, just because that therewas a big setback in the
beginning didn't dictate whatthe rest of my history was
(04:55):
moving forward were you worriedthat it was going to?
no, absolutely, and certainlycertain doors did shut because
of that.
But, just like any industry,there's many ways to have a
career, and maybe the roads lesstraveled are the ones that are
(05:16):
for you.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, so you didn't go to that school, their loss
and you kept dancing.
You're a gorgeous, you're agorgeous dancer.
Uh, thank you.
I know from watching sandpaper.
Um, I guess I should also tellyou maybe I haven't told you I'm
excited to have you here totalk about a movie you made
about ballet because, um, my momwas a ballerina.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Um, I remember we talked about that in the mammoth
.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, but I have a question for you I have an
answer, um forgive me in advance, please, if this is, if this is
offensive, um, because mymother's a very offensive person
sometimes um, and is it balletdancer?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I see it's really interesting that you say that,
because I see a, among otherthings, in our culture.
There are a lot of shiftshappening from an old world
(06:21):
mentality and it's interestingbecause a lot of people ask me
this question.
But it's more of what do youcall a male ballet dancer?
This is where I'm going,actually, yeah so I'll just jump
right into it here.
In an English-speaking country,usually it's just male ballet
dancer or ballet dancer.
(06:41):
Okay, ballerina is a feminineyou know yeah yeah, also certain
countries they say ballerino totalk about.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I was wondering is that offensive?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
no, okay, because honestly like I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't give a crap.
That was my mom's way, yeah,being like the ballerinas and
the ballerinos.
And I was like is that actuallywhat we're saying, or is it
just her little quirky thingthat rides?
On me almost causing a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And then there's also the added that there's some
ballet dancers that are genderneutral or have transitioned
dancers that are gender neutralor have transitioned, and you
know.
So, just like everything elsein our, our world today, we have
to be aware of who we'readdressing yeah, are there um
women presenting ballet dancers,who prefer to be called a
(07:40):
ballet dancer.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Like you know how actors are making the switch
kind of to like it's not anactor and actress, we're just,
we're all right um, is thereanything like happening in the
ballet world?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
well, I, I don't want to speak to that because that's
not my um, my perspective, mymy.
You know, I don't see the worldin that way, so I'm not going
to speak to someone else'sperspective, but I'm sure that
you know there are people whoare dancers, that are just
dancers.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
All right, thank you, of course, because it's been
years of me being like is shecausing a problem when she does
that?
Great, I can move on and livemy life.
Ok, so let's talk about yourdecision to create.
(08:28):
So you danced, you danced somemore and now you have this story
, this beautiful story of howyou moved through something that
was very painful, I'm sure, andhad this beautiful career
anyway, and now you have thisgorgeous outlook on life that,
like one thing, is not going tostop the rest of your life from
happening for you.
(08:49):
Um, when did you decide tostart writing and did you have
any experience in writing?
What was that first day ofbeing like I'm gonna write this.
Like what?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
did you do?
Yeah, yeah, I I'm.
So I moved to la about two anda half years ago.
God, uh, um, it went by soquick.
Yeah, for me, I came here with afew friends that I knew and a
few contacts, and I wanted toget representation and I wanted
(09:25):
to start going out for things.
And you know, I just I wasready, I was just feeling ready,
and, um, I didn't have reallyany credits.
You know, I did a couple ofcommercials, a couple of short
films, but not much else.
And so when I would havemeetings with reps, they'd say I
can't do anything with this,which I completely understand,
(09:49):
this is a business.
But in the moment I was alittle frustrated because how am
I going to what?
What am I going to do?
And I also knew that I had a lotof stories.
You know, we're both livingstorytellers.
Stories, you know, we're bothliving storytellers.
(10:09):
And for me, I said, oh, I havethis story about this young man
who went through somethingsimilar that I went through and
I have been writing a lot of Imean reading a lot of scripts.
So I knew the format.
And then, you know, I was justusing it and just like a word
document and I was like tryingto make it look right.
This is before I knew aboutfinal draft.
And so I wrote a first draft ofwhat later became sandpaper and
(10:30):
I started workshopping that inmy own classes and I would get
feedback and I would makeanother draft and then I'd take
it to a neighbor who readsscripts for a living.
And then I got some feedbackfrom them and then I took it to
another person I trusted, and,and, and then somebody was like
(10:51):
you should write this in thefinal draft.
Oh, I actually think itmight've been.
No, no, it wasn't you, I can'tremember it.
Might've, it might've been, itmight've been.
So I was workshopping with a fewfriends, making notes, taking
changes, making new drafts, gotfinal draft.
Finally, and after a few months, that's when I met this guy at
(11:13):
Fourth of July party and I toldhim about the project and I told
him about the script that Iwrote and my decision to make it
into a short film kind ofhappened because of the feedback
I was getting and I realizedthat it was something that
people really resonated with andit was also about a subject
(11:37):
matter that not a lot of peopleknow the nuances about it,
especially coming from a maleballet dancer's point of view.
And so it was around july.
I met this guy at a fourth ofjuly barbecue.
We talked about it, he read it,his schedule opened up.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I'm just going to talk about it yeah, yeah, um, uh
and yeah, we, we just kind ofmade it happen amazing yeah, so
I love that you just tried tomake it work in a word document,
because that is literally whatI'm doing right now and I'm so
I'm so intimidated byscreenwriting software.
(12:20):
So how did you figure that out?
Did you self-teach yourself howto write in final draft, or did
somebody mentor you to write?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Nobody mentored me on it, I figured it out.
Luckily there's, you know,YouTube University.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
There's.
Once you start learning thekeystrokes, it's very intuitive.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Great For me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And you know it's a lot easier than doing it in a
Word document.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
You did it, dude, I did.
Okay, you wrote the thing, Iwrote the thing.
And then you met Danny, whichthis is something that I want to
talk about too is.
We talk a lot about theimportance of community, finding
your community, finding peopleyou like and finding people you
want to create things with, andit's so great that you met at a
4th of July party, yep, and that, dami, you said, send it to me,
(13:10):
I'll take a look, send it to me.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
And then what was your process after that?
You see the script and youthink okay.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
I mean, right off the bat, I just love the world like
hand, like we're just standingon a hill overlooking all of la
and watching just fireworks,like pepper around all of la and
just chatting about it, and Ithought just the world of ballet
is so cool and it's somethingthat you know I've been a fan of
, but I didn't know a lot aboutyou know which.
I think a lot of the world kindof falls in that category.
(13:39):
Um, but I had an athletebackground and had sat in on
some ballet classes in Russiawhen I was over there doing
theater and stuff and um, butalso, too, I was a hockey player
growing up, so I had also likebattle injuries and stuff
through college and, uh, alittle bit of pro and stuff.
So we had a lot that we reallyconnected out in terms of that
journey and like what injuriescan do and what speed bumps on
(13:59):
your journey can mean for youand all that sort of stuff.
So, um, so I identified with it, but I also was just super
curious about like peekingbehind the curtain into that
world and so right away I wasjust like, yeah, shoot it over,
man, it sounds awesome yeah, socool.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Also, you reminded me that you have an athlete
background.
You have an background.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I did read the bio that you sent me.
The five-page bio yes.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
The entire life bio and Danny Mooney.
God, I'm so glad you have that,because is this the result of
incredible parents?
Or is this the result of justan incredible mind?
Because from your bio it justseems like you went I want to do
(14:45):
that and then did it a milliontimes in so many different areas
.
It's so exciting to like see,see all the different avenues
that you have tried, and notjust tried and be like.
That's not for me.
You have tried and succeeded inso many multiple areas.
Thank you, and I'm not here tolike hand you an award.
(15:07):
I'm just saying where does thatcome from?
Do you know?
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I think of between that mind and parents equation.
I would probably say parents, Ithink like my.
My dad uh comes from computersoftware engineering and uh like
systems administration, so he'sa very engineering minded
person but with like thecreativity within that.
And then my mom, um wrotechildren's books while I was
(15:35):
growing up and kind of didphotography, she um some theater
in college in England, stufflike that, and so I kind of I
was lucky enough to kind of getboth parts of their brains but
then also get the encouragementfrom them to go down whichever
avenue I wanted to bob and weavethrough right.
So I got super lucky in thatrespect, um, but yeah, also the
(15:55):
nicest people yeah myparents.
I I lucked out, man, my parentsare awesome.
And I I was originally incollege for engineering and uh,
on like day three, I was likethis was a life mistake, what am
I doing here?
And uh, I called my parents andthey said, uh, they're like,
when was the last time you werehappy?
And I was like, probably when Iwas on stage, like acting in
high school.
And they're like, why are youin the engineering department?
(16:15):
They're like it's on the on thesame campus, like get over to
the theater department.
And so that sort ofencouragement I feel like is
rare and it's not lost on me,like I don't take it for granted
.
I was super, super lucky thatthey see the world like that and
encourage me like that.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
That's so, so amazing .
I love them.
Okay, and then also you.
What is the, what is themindset when you're in college
and you have all these otherclasses to sneak into another
class that you're notmatriculated in?
You just like walked into afilm class and you were like,
(16:49):
yeah, I'll sit here for a fewand I'll keep coming here.
I'm not getting credit, butwhat was that about in college?
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I followed my parents' direction.
I literally like marched acrossthe engineering quad to the
theater school and I was likeI'm here to be a student of
yours.
And they were like cool, youhave to audition.
And I'm like I'm on it.
And they're like here's yourdate.
And they handed me a date.
It was two years from that dayand I was like I should be
halfway through college at thatpoint.
They're like good luck.
And I was like sweet.
(17:16):
And so I kind of went back and Ididn't know what to do.
And then I had the weird ideaof like if I did filmmaking, I
could cast myself in thingswhich I almost never do.
The idea was a great one.
That's not always followthroughable, but, um, yeah.
So then I ended up in the filmschool, but I was still
technically an engineeringstudent for a year because of my
scholarship.
(17:36):
So I just sat in the backawkwardly and every day they
told me to leave, and every dayI would just kind of be like
okay, see you on Wednesday.
They're like, that's not what Isaid.
And then, yeah, that professoreventually overrode me and then
he was like he oversaw my wholetrack and like was he?
He like oversaw my seniorthesis and everything, and yeah,
I owe a lot to him.
What?
Speaker 5 (17:53):
did he write?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Wait, say his name again Robert Rayer, professor
Reyer man, robert, robert Reyer.
It takes a village man Like myparents, like professors, like
that.
Yeah, it's important.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
But it's also probably really inspiring to see
a kid who keeps coming.
They're literally telling youto leave.
And you're like I'll just sithere quietly, like I'll just
learn and then finally breakthem down of professors.
Let's go back to sandpaper.
There's a moment in this filmthat makes me so angry.
There are moments in this filmthroughout that we need to talk
(18:26):
about um but one that made me soangry is head of school going
back to.
Did this really happen?
You go back, head of school,you're talking to this person
trying to get your spot backafter your injury and they tell
you that if you drop a piece ofpottery it's broken and it will
(18:47):
never be as strong.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, it wasn't quite like that.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Has this asshole ever heard of kintsugi, because
sometimes it can be stronger.
I was so mad, I was so angry.
I'm so glad that didn'tactually happen.
Beautiful moment.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And beautiful actor too.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Oscar Best that guy's incredible he was just in a
Mark Wahlberg movie.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Yeah, also a ballet dancer, also a former
professional ballet dancer.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Could they actually tell it was your left leg?
Yeah, Like you were.
Like which leg was it?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, I didn't say that, but at that point everyone
knew, everyone knew, okay, allright, so okay, so you're an
incredible storyteller.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Because I was like this is exactly what happened
and I hate this guy.
Because I was like this isexactly what happened and I hate
this guy.
So much so that at the end,when the thing happens and you
smile, I was like punch that guy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
That guy was a dick but I also wanted to keep it
open, to be like, oh, whathappens?
Now just a little bit of likewhat, what, what was?
Oh, there's some respect there.
Yeah, does something happen?
Speaker 6 (20:03):
okay, we are stoked to shout out our audio sponsor,
deity microphones.
Their s mic 2 pro shotgun micshave impeccable sound clarity,
direction directionality,headphone monitoring and a
user-friendly design, and we'reproud to launch our studio with
them.
Our goal is to bring youeducational gems every episode
and with these mics, you canlisten to the best quality audio
(20:25):
possible wherever you are.
To learn more about using Deitymics for your own podcasting,
voiceover filming needs, go todeity miccom we have some
exciting news.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Cfa has teamed up with we make movies to get you a
discount on productionmanagement services, including
access to comprehensiveproduction insurance and workers
comp.
For your next shoot, visit wemake moviesorg, slash insurance
and use code CFA23 on yourintake form for 10% off your
quote.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
No, that was an incredible element.
Okay, so I want to talktechnically now about some
decisions that you make.
There's a lot of jumping and alot of spinning and a lot of
turning and especially likeinjury is in the log line right
and for some reason I'm a personright before the injury happens
(21:19):
.
I want to pass like I wish Iwould go to sleep instead of
watch this moment.
For some reason, it really getsme, and so you had unsettling
sound design.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Dave Fienup, he's a pro yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Absolutely Like chalkboard nails for me, cause I
was like I know what's going tohappen, like I just was like
the whole time.
I wanted to close my eyes, myhands were just like over my
face.
So, again, incrediblestorytelling.
And then there were shotsjumping back and forth from like
healthy body to how do theselegs land this time?
(21:59):
Healthy body, is it?
This time?
The teasing was uh, what wasthe conversation around this
decision?
The decision of like that sceneof how are we building up to
and showing the moment of injury?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I think a lot of it, if I remember it was, I mean
because it was on the page.
But it's also a tricky thing toshoot because it's like you
know, if you just kind of likewaltz right in there and and he
busts things there's kind of youkind of lose that energy flow
and ramp, and so you have tomake people shudder, like you,
for sure, yeah, and so a lot ofit is like cam and I just have
(22:38):
to really like be on the samepage of like kind of knowing how
we were going to structure thateditorially and kind of work
our way backwards into it.
Yeah, um, and make cam do 4 000double tours and uh, in one day,
and um, and just kind of knowthat like it's gonna like start
small and start small, and likejust kind of know that it's
going to start small and startsmall.
We kind of knew where the sounddesign was going to go, and
then Dave took it even pastwhere our imaginations were and
then the things breaking waswhen he first sent us that both
(23:01):
of us kind of like oh gross,that's the one.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
When we figured out the sound of the pop that really
makes and every time we send itto a festival and we see it
screened the reactions from itvery effective.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's very visceral.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Yeah, randomly affected and it's layers of
different noises it's like camand I having chats with with
dave going over because I hadripped a hip flexor in lacrosse.
He did that twice in his lifeand us trying to say, like
here's what it sounds like inyour body when you pop something
off of another thing.
Yeah, and like I think it was.
(23:42):
Eventually it was a knucklecrack combined with a chicken
bone crack, like actuallysnapping some of the ligaments
in a chicken bone.
But, all that kind of combinedinto a nice succinct little puke
in your mouth moment.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, really sickening, just like well done.
Um, I also want to talk about I.
You know I'm very lucky becauseI had some time to do a lot of
research and I listened to yourpodcast, cameron, which will.
Cameron has a podcast and youtwo did an episode together and
you spoke about your decision oncamera choice and lensing and I
(24:18):
thought that that was veryinteresting, especially for our
audience.
So let's talk about the choicesthat you made there and the
conversations you were havingabout why you chose what gear.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, totally so.
Shout out to Benji Dell, he's amutual friend.
We just found out Benji.
Totally so shout out to BenjiDell, he's a mutual friend.
We just found out Benji Dell.
We know him, benji Dell, thebest Cool guy.
So Benji and I went to filmschool together, so we knew each
other all the way back atUniversity of Michigan and we
had just always kind of chattedabout trying to find something
to connect on and when thispopped up, I was like this might
be the thing and Benji happenedto have like a window open in
(24:52):
his schedule to shoot it, and soit was just super fun for him
and I to get to like get backtogether and get the band
cruising again.
But yeah, so the gear that weended up choosing and some of it
was also like at the behest ofhaving not a lot of money and
seeing what Benji had in his kit, but Benji's got great gear and
(25:18):
also, like you know, know, ifwe needed to go elsewhere, it's
like obviously, very importantbut the stuff we kind of ended
up with.
The ideology was have verycinematic camera.
So we ended up going just withan alexa and alexa mini but then
the lensing in front of that,we really wanted something that
we could play zooms on.
To almost kind of give it moreof that, doc feel, um and ng and
benji just kind of put in like,you know, servo zooms and stuff
like that so he could literallyplay the zooms while he was
hand holding Because he wasoperating as well.
Correct, yeah, he was eitherhand holding or a lot of it was
(25:41):
easy rig for him, but he wantedto be able to play it.
He's so good at just beingintuitive and like there's I but
it's a dance between a cameraoperator and a performer and so
for the ballet parts, literallyhe's kind of a part of the
choreography and even just forlike a quiet, you know, dialogue
scene, then you would feel outthose moments to like just just
(26:03):
touch on the zooms and likebreathe a little bit and like
close a little bit and and findhis way through a scene which
was just beautiful.
Um, so we ended up we had tofind lenses that were light
enough to handheld, becausethat's the other thing is, we
knew we were handhelding and alot of those moving and totally
yeah, and so we ended up withthese, um, these zooms, I think
(26:23):
they're called dco's.
Benji's probably gonna like sendme a text and hate me for this.
I think they're called dcozooms.
They're out of china andthey're actually fairly new, but
they have a very vintage lookto them.
So they have a lot of characterand stuff which we kind of love
.
They kind of gave it almostlike a 16 millimeter kind of
vibe and so pairing these kindof vintage-y small zooms and we
just we shot 95% of the movie ontwo zooms it was a wide zoom
(26:47):
and a long zoom.
And then there was one scenewhen Cam passes out and we we at
that point took a super speedprime and floated it in front of
the camera.
We didn't attach it and thatkind of like you know lets in
little light leaks and it kindof like shifts your focal plane
and stuff and played into cambeing knocked out.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Sorry we let us swear yeah sweet cam was fucking
knocked out.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
But that really happened in real life.
So I mean, like you know, hepassed out when he heard and so
like he was going through a lotand so like Benji and him kind
of playing that moment andfinding it together was super
beautiful.
So that was kind of theideology behind.
It is like marrying cinema,with Doc lensing and letting
Benji and Cam feel out themoments.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And was there a decision with that?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
as far as creatively with the ballet, yeah, I mean
the fact that we wanted toreally be able to flow with the
ballet and flow with thechoreography and make sure that
Benji could accommodate on thefly.
There was also the shootings.
We shot a 30-minute piece inthree days, so it's like you're
flying and so being able to toreally feel things out in the
(27:55):
moment and make quickadjustments and like having two
zooms like 50 50 you're gonna beon the right zoom already when
something happens.
So like that's a good thingbecause you may be swapping
primes all this time yeah um,and then shout out to our first
ac bryce too, because he didn'thave a mark in the movie, like
we know there's no's no marks inthe whole movie.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
There's a lot of movement in the movie yeah and
Bryce he just sit there and ripsharps at the monitor.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
He's a monster.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
So also a U of M alumni, and also was on the
roller hockey team for Michigan,which I was too, which is a
total.
We didn't even know each otherbefore the shoot.
It's so random.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
He knew me from roller hockey program so, like,
very strange, but it was awesome.
So, yeah, great camera team isworth its weight in gold,
absolutely yeah.
There is something that yousaid on Cameron's podcast that I
want to bring up uh, that someof the decision to choose those
lenses and put them on thatcamera, specifically, um, is
that you wanted to show theathleticism in ballet.
Like, yes, ballet is thisbeautiful.
Uh, they make it look very easy, kind of um sport but it is a
(29:00):
sport totally so like.
There's the beauty, if I'mremembering correctly, the
beauty of the alexa mini, andthen the grit of these lenses
that you chose totally togetherkind of will show that yeah, um
and I thought that was reallycool.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
That was one of our chats early on yeah, no, early
on, we really wanted to likeportray really what it was like
you know behind the curtain andthen showing just how how much
these athletes like really haveto push.
And it's an impact sport, likeyou're impacting every time and,
honestly, like when you'redoing something exactly the same
over and over again, it's worseon your body than like these
(29:36):
other impact sports.
Where you're you're getting hita little different every single
time, you know.
And so, um, so cam and I, likeearly on, were saying like we
really wanted to make sure, likethat it's portrayed as a gritty
, and while we have a second, Ialso want to shout out to uh
danny sofka yeah because,
Speaker 1 (29:55):
she was the one who brought up both of us together,
and she was also a producer onthe film as well, also ballet
dancer also a ballet dancer aswell also has that two acls done
.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Also had an acl done I wanted to ask you actually um
how do you feel after the day of4 000 double tours?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
oh, like crap yeah, I felt terrible.
Knees are fine.
You know, it's one of thosethings where, luckily, I've had
a long enough time dancing whereyou can keep doing something
and keep being physical andbeing at the right place at the
right time doing the right thingand still be absolutely dead
(30:36):
tired.
But luckily that next day wasan off day and the day after
that was very minimal dancing um.
But yeah, I don't think I'veever done as many double tours
in one day as I did forsandpaper.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That was a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
It's not an easy move either.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And anybody that I talked to was like yeah, we were
all scared that you were goingto do something on that day.
It's going to happen again.
All in a day, we're taking youto the hospital.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Now the movie's over.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Thank goodness it's not.
There was one more.
Did you want me to finish thatgritty thought?
Speaker 4 (31:15):
um, yeah.
So basically at the end of theday, cam and I just like early
it was a very early discussionof just like portraying the
grittiness behind the dancingand like the real, the real
athleticism and the strive andjust grit that it takes to get
through it and not, uh, justshow the beauty because on the
outside on stage, it's gorgeousand it looks amazing, but you
(31:36):
just don't realize like theinsane amount of training and
athleticism to get to that pointyeah and pushing through pain
like that's just like part ofthe thing is like oh, your feet
are gonna be messed up forevernow, and you sometimes have an
injury.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You're just like gracefully moving through.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It's wild.
It's wild and also another bigreason why I wanted to make it
and both of us had thisconversation early on was a lot
of what's portrayed in film andTV when it comes to ballet and
dance in general is really notrepresented of what it actually
is like to do that art form.
(32:14):
Right, you know it's eithervery dainty and very pretty or
it's psychotic and mental andbackstabby.
Yeah, it's very opposite ends,and so we wanted to show more of
the reality of it.
It's very gritty, it's acontact sport.
(32:36):
You know there's a lot of workthat goes into it.
There is, but you know, thereit produces a product that's
very aesthetically pleasing, andalso there are people involved.
You know there is human,there's humanity to it it's
highly competitive, but you findthe people right in it.
Right, it's so interesting whena movie comes out or a tv show
(33:01):
comes out where dance and balletis is the focal point.
I can't tell you how manypeople come to me and be like,
hey, I just saw insert show ormovie man, those ballet dancers,
they're.
They're so crazy, aren't they?
And it's like, well, there's acertain lunacy you have to have,
(33:22):
but, just like any other careerwhere you're passionate about
and to your point, there's acertain humanity that people
can't relate to, and I thinkthat's part of the reason, among
other things, why people aren'tgoing to see dance as much or
dance is not funded as much.
You know we, you know dancershave the same rigor as a
(33:46):
professional athlete, but we getpaid peanuts, right, for that
work.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Because it's hard to see.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Hard to see.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Like the art form, evilness.
Yeah, yeah, it makes it hard tosee the humanity but also
there's not as many sponsors.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
There's not as many.
You know it's.
It's a very antiquated way ofthinking about art yeah that
just people aren't interested init go to more ballet guys.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
It's watch what they do, it's awesome, and then try
to do it and then go watch theballet again because yeah, yeah,
yes.
Let me ask those two do youthink?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
is it also because, like ballet is so quantifiable,
where it's like you're eithernailing it or you're not,
whereas, like, if you're in afootball game or maybe I should
say another sport, like a soccergame, it's like that guy's
getting goals, he's worth whatwe're paying him.
Or like, oh, but he's notgetting goals, but he's getting
assists.
Or like, oh, that guy's aplaymaker, yeah, even, but he's
getting assists.
Or like, oh, that guy's aplaymaker, yeah, even, though
he's got a knock.
There's like all these levelsof what your value is, and I
(34:43):
feel like in ballet it's likeyou're either nailing it or
you're not nailing it.
You know, I don't know.
Do you think it's kind of likethat?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Is that maybe part of it Part?
It is hard to quantify, qualifythat, but there's also so many
other things.
Just like a soccer player or anAmerican football player, you
know we love seeing thequarterback talk about plays and
(35:15):
how much they have to do on anygiven Sunday, right and the
process, we love it.
And then you see them gettingbeat up and then they come back,
you know, at the last twominutes and then it gets get the
field goal and everyone's happy.
You know like so.
So there is a certain, yes,results driven, but there's no
(35:35):
scoreboard in ballet.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
And so it's more of an aesthetic, personal art.
You know how we perceive it umsubjective so many ways yeah,
very subjective, just like any,any, any art form, but it's it's
a weird mix, so it's somethingI I always think about a lot,
(36:00):
especially now when we're tryingto make sandpaper into
something bigger, into a series.
How to demonstrate thatdistance between the physical
and the art, and how do you makethat into an industry that can
keep going forward.
Okay, yay, sandpaper is goingto be a series.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Let's talk about this .
Did we hear it here first?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I probably alluded to it in other.
It's on its way.
It's on its way.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
You heard it here as well.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Sandpaper is going to be a series.
Where are you in that process?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Well, right now I'm working on character arcs,
developments of seasons.
I have a few drafts of some ofthe episodes.
The pilot is kind of where I'mspending most of my time on in
terms of just sandpaper,tweaking it, seeing what plant
(37:02):
seeds in it so that people guesswhat they want.
Um, yeah, just just beingcreative about it and how to
best show more reality and morehumanity in the dance world.
Um, and have it be accessibleand people enjoying it.
So it doesn't seem like another.
(37:23):
Okay, I'll name it black swanor tiny pretty thing.
So it's not those types ofshows.
Yeah, hopefully people canrelate to it I'm really happy to
hear this.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
congratulations, thank you on Congratulations on
having a creative idea,completing a creative idea and
now growing with it.
Really, how can people find youand follow along and eventually
find a series, and how can theywatch Sandpaper if they want to
?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, you can find me on Instagram.
I'm at CameronAB123.
Tiktok CameronAB.
I also have my website, theCameronAB123.
Tiktok CameronAB.
I also have my website,cameronabcom.
I also have the CameronABpodcast, which shouts out to
cinematography for actors,because it is not easy making a
podcast at any level, I try todo it just with myself and your
(38:21):
podcast is great, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
I try to do it just with myself, and it's a lot yeah
.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
I listened to it.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm really happy that you did I it, it it's.
It's a little bit of a labor oflove, but it's definitely a
labor for me, especially when Ihave so many other things.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
You're writing a series, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm also just trying to survive and live my life.
I have a couple episodes that Ihave yet to get to Shouts out
to Cinematographer.
You guys are killing it.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Thanks guys.
Is there a festival coming up?
Where do we find Soundpeeper?
Do we have to wait?
We haven't really figured out.
We're still on the festivaljourney right now.
It's at the moment not publiclya festival coming up.
Where do we find Sound?
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Paper.
Do we have to wait?
We can wait.
What do you think we haven'treally figured out.
We're still on the festivaljourney right now, so it's like
at the moment, not publiclyavailable but, someday, when it
kind of gets to that point oflike festivals kind of like are
done, we'll have to figure outwhat we want to do with it.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Festival announcements on Instagram
probably Okay great Okay great.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
We'll have that.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Follow and see if you are near a festival or going to
a festival where Sandpaper willplay.
And Danny Mooney, how canpeople follow you?
Get involved.
Find out about your nextventure that you'll win an award
on.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
I don't really do social media.
I'm on the other end of it but,like you, can always find me on
all those places.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Like, I have profiles that I don't post on and stuff,
stuff.
So if you ever want to watch anempty profile, you can go to
the danny mooney on anything andthere's also a lot of stuff
that you've created.
People can go to imdb andsearch for your name and find
some things.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
There you go.
Yeah, you can go down that listand find stuff and watch some
things stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Lots of stuff, lots of stuff.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So cool to talk to you guys today.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having us.
It's inspiring.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Thanks for listening guys.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Join us in bridging the gap between talent and crew.
Start by subscribing on yourpreferred podcast platform.
Sign up for our newsletter tostay up to date on vendor
discounts, community events andnew podcast releases, and
educate yourself through ourfree course releases on YouTube.
It all starts atcinematographyfractorscom and if
you liked this episode,consider leaving a review to
make it easier for otherlisteners to find us.
In my pre-professional journey when I
suffered a knee injury rightwhen I was getting an
opportunity to go to a veryprestigious ballet school.
And what did that do?
What was the fallout of that?
And the people in my life?
How did that shape how Iapproached the next chapter?
(00:23):
Spoiler alert, and I think wejust said I had a full,
wonderful career.
Yeah, just because there was abig setback in the beginning
didn't dictate what the rest ofmy history was moving forward.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
This is the Cinematography for Actors
podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
More than a podcast.
Cinematography for Actors is avibrant community devoted to
bridging the gap between talentand crew.
Each week, our show offerstransparent, insightful
conversations with industryleaders.
We unveil the magic behind thescenes, from candid discussions
about unique filmmakingprocesses to in-depth technical
exploration.
Join us in unraveling theintricacies of filmmaking, one
(01:07):
episode at a time.
It's more than just cameras andlenses we aim to inspire,
educate and empower as we peelback the curtain on the art of
effective storytelling.
Now on to the episode.
Hi everybody.
Welcome to an episode of theCinematography for Actors
podcast.
I am your host, hayley Royal.
I am joined today with a pairthat I'm so excited to have here
(01:28):
, because we met at Mammoth andI said come and we'll do your
episode, and then we ran out oftime, we had to leave, and so
I'm finally getting to make itup to you guys.
I'm really excited.
Most of the creative team of ashort film called Sandpaper,
cameron Alba-Brannigan, correct.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yes, you did.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Cameron Alba-Brannigan and Danny Mooney.
Hi guys.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hello, thank you for having us.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you so much for joining me and thank you for
being so patient, because it wasmonths ago that I promised you
an episode.
It's okay.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I'm really excited we're warmer now.
This is.
There's less than a few of snowon us Last time we saw each
other.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
We were all in big coats.
Very big coats.
Yeah, and now it's like a nicebreeze.
Well, not anymore, because Ihad to close the doors, but
there was a nice breeze andwe're all in much less clothing,
although you're still in snowboots.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
He's always in.
I'm from Michigan.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Are you a boot boy?
I guess Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Boot boy Danny's a boot boy.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
I'm going to call you a boot boy from now on.
Boot boy, all right.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I love it.
So, guys, let's get intosandpaper.
Cameron, you created this youwrote it, I did.
You already know that I'm soexcited about people who have an
idea and then make it.
This is so exciting for me aswell, because this was not your
(03:01):
original career goal to be afilmmaker to be an actor.
You had a different career goal, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, I did.
What was it?
So I used to be a professionalballet dancer.
I toured the US for about 10years and working for about a
dozen.
I was kind of a journeyman interms of all the different
companies I guested with andthat was my career up until
about a couple of years ago, andit's only been the past couple
(03:30):
of years since COVID that I wenta full not 180, because I
really feel like there's a lotof parallels between acting,
filmmaking as well as the danceworld.
And yeah, I'm here, I'm in lanow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Acting, writing, producing, yeah, all the things
you're doing it all so you acted, you wrote, you produced and
you produced sound paper, and itis a story of your life,
correct?
So from watching this film, Ican guess what happened in your
career, um, and why why you?
Felt you wanted to make a shift, or did this shift come after?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Okay.
So so it's a time in mypre-professional journey when I
suffered a knee injury rightwhen I was getting an
opportunity to go to a veryprestigious ballet school, and
what did that do?
What was the fallout of that?
And the people in my life, how,how, how did that shape how I
(04:33):
approached the next chapter?
Um, spoiler alert and I thinkwe just said I had a full,
wonderful career.
Yeah, um, dancing in some ofthe biggest uh venues in the
United states.
So, um, just because that therewas a big setback in the
beginning didn't dictate whatthe rest of my history was
(04:55):
moving forward were you worriedthat it was going to?
no, absolutely, and certainlycertain doors did shut because
of that.
But, just like any industry,there's many ways to have a
career, and maybe the roads lesstraveled are the ones that are
(05:16):
for you.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, so you didn't go to that school, their loss
and you kept dancing.
You're a gorgeous, you're agorgeous dancer.
Uh, thank you.
I know from watching sandpaper.
Um, I guess I should also tellyou maybe I haven't told you I'm
excited to have you here totalk about a movie you made
about ballet because, um, my momwas a ballerina.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Um, I remember we talked about that in the mammoth
.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, but I have a question for you I have an
answer, um forgive me in advance, please, if this is, if this is
offensive, um, because mymother's a very offensive person
sometimes um, and is it balletdancer?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I see it's really interesting that you say that,
because I see a, among otherthings, in our culture.
There are a lot of shiftshappening from an old world
(06:21):
mentality and it's interestingbecause a lot of people ask me
this question.
But it's more of what do youcall a male ballet dancer?
This is where I'm going,actually, yeah so I'll just jump
right into it here.
In an English-speaking country,usually it's just male ballet
dancer or ballet dancer.
(06:41):
Okay, ballerina is a feminineyou know yeah yeah, also certain
countries they say ballerino totalk about.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I was wondering is that offensive?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
no, okay, because honestly like I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't give a crap.
That was my mom's way, yeah,being like the ballerinas and
the ballerinos.
And I was like is that actuallywhat we're saying, or is it
just her little quirky thingthat rides?
On me almost causing a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
And then there's also the added that there's some
ballet dancers that are genderneutral or have transitioned
dancers that are gender neutralor have transitioned, and you
know.
So, just like everything elsein our, our world today, we have
to be aware of who we'readdressing yeah, are there um
women presenting ballet dancers,who prefer to be called a
(07:40):
ballet dancer.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Like you know how actors are making the switch
kind of to like it's not anactor and actress, we're just,
we're all right um, is thereanything like happening in the
ballet world?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
well, I, I don't want to speak to that because that's
not my um, my perspective, mymy.
You know, I don't see the worldin that way, so I'm not going
to speak to someone else'sperspective, but I'm sure that
you know there are people whoare dancers, that are just
dancers.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
All right, thank you, of course, because it's been
years of me being like is shecausing a problem when she does
that?
Great, I can move on and livemy life.
Ok, so let's talk about yourdecision to create.
(08:28):
So you danced, you danced somemore and now you have this story
, this beautiful story of howyou moved through something that
was very painful, I'm sure, andhad this beautiful career
anyway, and now you have thisgorgeous outlook on life that,
like one thing, is not going tostop the rest of your life from
happening for you.
(08:49):
Um, when did you decide tostart writing and did you have
any experience in writing?
What was that first day ofbeing like I'm gonna write this.
Like what?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
did you do?
Yeah, yeah, I I'm.
So I moved to la about two anda half years ago.
God, uh, um, it went by soquick.
Yeah, for me, I came here with afew friends that I knew and a
few contacts, and I wanted toget representation and I wanted
(09:25):
to start going out for things.
And you know, I just I wasready, I was just feeling ready,
and, um, I didn't have reallyany credits.
You know, I did a couple ofcommercials, a couple of short
films, but not much else.
And so when I would havemeetings with reps, they'd say I
can't do anything with this,which I completely understand,
(09:49):
this is a business.
But in the moment I was alittle frustrated because how am
I going to what?
What am I going to do?
And I also knew that I had a lotof stories.
You know, we're both livingstorytellers.
Stories, you know, we're bothliving storytellers.
(10:09):
And for me, I said, oh, I havethis story about this young man
who went through somethingsimilar that I went through and
I have been writing a lot of Imean reading a lot of scripts.
So I knew the format.
And then, you know, I was justusing it and just like a word
document and I was like tryingto make it look right.
This is before I knew aboutfinal draft.
And so I wrote a first draft ofwhat later became sandpaper and
(10:30):
I started workshopping that inmy own classes and I would get
feedback and I would makeanother draft and then I'd take
it to a neighbor who readsscripts for a living.
And then I got some feedbackfrom them and then I took it to
another person I trusted, and,and, and then somebody was like
(10:51):
you should write this in thefinal draft.
Oh, I actually think itmight've been.
No, no, it wasn't you, I can'tremember it.
Might've, it might've been, itmight've been.
So I was workshopping with a fewfriends, making notes, taking
changes, making new drafts, gotfinal draft.
Finally, and after a few months, that's when I met this guy at
(11:13):
Fourth of July party and I toldhim about the project and I told
him about the script that Iwrote and my decision to make it
into a short film kind ofhappened because of the feedback
I was getting and I realizedthat it was something that
people really resonated with andit was also about a subject
(11:37):
matter that not a lot of peopleknow the nuances about it,
especially coming from a maleballet dancer's point of view.
And so it was around july.
I met this guy at a fourth ofjuly barbecue.
We talked about it, he read it,his schedule opened up.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I'm just going to talk about it yeah, yeah, um, uh
and yeah, we, we just kind ofmade it happen amazing yeah, so
I love that you just tried tomake it work in a word document,
because that is literally whatI'm doing right now and I'm so
I'm so intimidated byscreenwriting software.
(12:20):
So how did you figure that out?
Did you self-teach yourself howto write in final draft, or did
somebody mentor you to write?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Nobody mentored me on it, I figured it out.
Luckily there's, you know,YouTube University.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
There's.
Once you start learning thekeystrokes, it's very intuitive.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Great For me.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And you know it's a lot easier than doing it in a
Word document.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
You did it, dude, I did.
Okay, you wrote the thing, Iwrote the thing.
And then you met Danny, whichthis is something that I want to
talk about too is.
We talk a lot about theimportance of community, finding
your community, finding peopleyou like and finding people you
want to create things with, andit's so great that you met at a
4th of July party, yep, and that, dami, you said, send it to me,
(13:10):
I'll take a look, send it to me.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
And then what was your process after that?
You see the script and youthink okay.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
I mean, right off the bat, I just love the world like
hand, like we're just standingon a hill overlooking all of la
and watching just fireworks,like pepper around all of la and
just chatting about it, and Ithought just the world of ballet
is so cool and it's somethingthat you know I've been a fan of
, but I didn't know a lot aboutyou know which.
I think a lot of the world kindof falls in that category.
(13:39):
Um, but I had an athletebackground and had sat in on
some ballet classes in Russiawhen I was over there doing
theater and stuff and um, butalso, too, I was a hockey player
growing up, so I had also likebattle injuries and stuff
through college and, uh, alittle bit of pro and stuff.
So we had a lot that we reallyconnected out in terms of that
journey and like what injuriescan do and what speed bumps on
(13:59):
your journey can mean for youand all that sort of stuff.
So, um, so I identified with it, but I also was just super
curious about like peekingbehind the curtain into that
world and so right away I wasjust like, yeah, shoot it over,
man, it sounds awesome yeah, socool.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Also, you reminded me that you have an athlete
background.
You have an background.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I did read the bio that you sent me.
The five-page bio yes.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
The entire life bio and Danny Mooney.
God, I'm so glad you have that,because is this the result of
incredible parents?
Or is this the result of justan incredible mind?
Because from your bio it justseems like you went I want to do
(14:45):
that and then did it a milliontimes in so many different areas
.
It's so exciting to like see,see all the different avenues
that you have tried, and notjust tried and be like.
That's not for me.
You have tried and succeeded inso many multiple areas.
Thank you, and I'm not here tolike hand you an award.
(15:07):
I'm just saying where does thatcome from?
Do you know?
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I think of between that mind and parents equation.
I would probably say parents, Ithink like my.
My dad uh comes from computersoftware engineering and uh like
systems administration, so he'sa very engineering minded
person but with like thecreativity within that.
And then my mom, um wrotechildren's books while I was
(15:35):
growing up and kind of didphotography, she um some theater
in college in England, stufflike that, and so I kind of I
was lucky enough to kind of getboth parts of their brains but
then also get the encouragementfrom them to go down whichever
avenue I wanted to bob and weavethrough right.
So I got super lucky in thatrespect, um, but yeah, also the
(15:55):
nicest people yeah myparents.
I I lucked out, man, my parentsare awesome.
And I I was originally incollege for engineering and uh,
on like day three, I was likethis was a life mistake, what am
I doing here?
And uh, I called my parents andthey said, uh, they're like,
when was the last time you werehappy?
And I was like, probably when Iwas on stage, like acting in
high school.
And they're like, why are youin the engineering department?
(16:15):
They're like it's on the on thesame campus, like get over to
the theater department.
And so that sort ofencouragement I feel like is
rare and it's not lost on me,like I don't take it for granted
.
I was super, super lucky thatthey see the world like that and
encourage me like that.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
That's so, so amazing .
I love them.
Okay, and then also you.
What is the, what is themindset when you're in college
and you have all these otherclasses to sneak into another
class that you're notmatriculated in?
You just like walked into afilm class and you were like,
(16:49):
yeah, I'll sit here for a fewand I'll keep coming here.
I'm not getting credit, butwhat was that about in college?
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I followed my parents' direction.
I literally like marched acrossthe engineering quad to the
theater school and I was likeI'm here to be a student of
yours.
And they were like cool, youhave to audition.
And I'm like I'm on it.
And they're like here's yourdate.
And they handed me a date.
It was two years from that dayand I was like I should be
halfway through college at thatpoint.
They're like good luck.
And I was like sweet.
(17:16):
And so I kind of went back and Ididn't know what to do.
And then I had the weird ideaof like if I did filmmaking, I
could cast myself in thingswhich I almost never do.
The idea was a great one.
That's not always followthroughable, but, um, yeah.
So then I ended up in the filmschool, but I was still
technically an engineeringstudent for a year because of my
scholarship.
(17:36):
So I just sat in the backawkwardly and every day they
told me to leave, and every dayI would just kind of be like
okay, see you on Wednesday.
They're like, that's not what Isaid.
And then, yeah, that professoreventually overrode me and then
he was like he oversaw my wholetrack and like was he?
He like oversaw my seniorthesis and everything, and yeah,
I owe a lot to him.
What?
Speaker 5 (17:53):
did he write?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
Wait, say his name again Robert Rayer, professor
Reyer man, robert, robert Reyer.
It takes a village man Like myparents, like professors, like
that.
Yeah, it's important.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
But it's also probably really inspiring to see
a kid who keeps coming.
They're literally telling youto leave.
And you're like I'll just sithere quietly, like I'll just
learn and then finally breakthem down of professors.
Let's go back to sandpaper.
There's a moment in this filmthat makes me so angry.
There are moments in this filmthroughout that we need to talk
(18:26):
about um but one that made me soangry is head of school going
back to.
Did this really happen?
You go back, head of school,you're talking to this person
trying to get your spot backafter your injury and they tell
you that if you drop a piece ofpottery it's broken and it will
(18:47):
never be as strong.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, it wasn't quite like that.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Has this asshole ever heard of kintsugi, because
sometimes it can be stronger.
I was so mad, I was so angry.
I'm so glad that didn'tactually happen.
Beautiful moment.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
And beautiful actor too.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Oscar Best that guy's incredible he was just in a
Mark Wahlberg movie.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Yeah, also a ballet dancer, also a former
professional ballet dancer.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Could they actually tell it was your left leg?
Yeah, Like you were.
Like which leg was it?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, I didn't say that, but at that point everyone
knew, everyone knew, okay, allright, so okay, so you're an
incredible storyteller.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Because I was like this is exactly what happened
and I hate this guy.
Because I was like this isexactly what happened and I hate
this guy.
So much so that at the end,when the thing happens and you
smile, I was like punch that guy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
That guy was a dick but I also wanted to keep it
open, to be like, oh, whathappens?
Now just a little bit of likewhat, what, what was?
Oh, there's some respect there.
Yeah, does something happen?
Speaker 6 (20:03):
okay, we are stoked to shout out our audio sponsor,
deity microphones.
Their s mic 2 pro shotgun micshave impeccable sound clarity,
direction directionality,headphone monitoring and a
user-friendly design, and we'reproud to launch our studio with
them.
Our goal is to bring youeducational gems every episode
and with these mics, you canlisten to the best quality audio
(20:25):
possible wherever you are.
To learn more about using Deitymics for your own podcasting,
voiceover filming needs, go todeity miccom we have some
exciting news.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Cfa has teamed up with we make movies to get you a
discount on productionmanagement services, including
access to comprehensiveproduction insurance and workers
comp.
For your next shoot, visit wemake moviesorg, slash insurance
and use code CFA23 on yourintake form for 10% off your
quote.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
No, that was an incredible element.
Okay, so I want to talktechnically now about some
decisions that you make.
There's a lot of jumping and alot of spinning and a lot of
turning and especially likeinjury is in the log line right
and for some reason I'm a personright before the injury happens
(21:19):
.
I want to pass like I wish Iwould go to sleep instead of
watch this moment.
For some reason, it really getsme, and so you had unsettling
sound design.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Dave Fienup, he's a pro yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Absolutely Like chalkboard nails for me, cause I
was like I know what's going tohappen, like I just was like
the whole time.
I wanted to close my eyes, myhands were just like over my
face.
So, again, incrediblestorytelling.
And then there were shotsjumping back and forth from like
healthy body to how do theselegs land this time?
(21:59):
Healthy body, is it?
This time?
The teasing was uh, what wasthe conversation around this
decision?
The decision of like that sceneof how are we building up to
and showing the moment of injury?
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I think a lot of it, if I remember it was, I mean
because it was on the page.
But it's also a tricky thing toshoot because it's like you
know, if you just kind of likewaltz right in there and and he
busts things there's kind of youkind of lose that energy flow
and ramp, and so you have tomake people shudder, like you,
for sure, yeah, and so a lot ofit is like cam and I just have
(22:38):
to really like be on the samepage of like kind of knowing how
we were going to structure thateditorially and kind of work
our way backwards into it.
Yeah, um, and make cam do 4 000double tours and uh, in one day,
and um, and just kind of knowthat like it's gonna like start
small and start small, and likejust kind of know that it's
going to start small and startsmall.
We kind of knew where the sounddesign was going to go, and
then Dave took it even pastwhere our imaginations were and
then the things breaking waswhen he first sent us that both
(23:01):
of us kind of like oh gross,that's the one.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
When we figured out the sound of the pop that really
makes and every time we send itto a festival and we see it
screened the reactions from itvery effective.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's very visceral.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Yeah, randomly affected and it's layers of
different noises it's like camand I having chats with with
dave going over because I hadripped a hip flexor in lacrosse.
He did that twice in his lifeand us trying to say, like
here's what it sounds like inyour body when you pop something
off of another thing.
Yeah, and like I think it was.
(23:42):
Eventually it was a knucklecrack combined with a chicken
bone crack, like actuallysnapping some of the ligaments
in a chicken bone.
But, all that kind of combinedinto a nice succinct little puke
in your mouth moment.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, really sickening, just like well done.
Um, I also want to talk about I.
You know I'm very lucky becauseI had some time to do a lot of
research and I listened to yourpodcast, cameron, which will.
Cameron has a podcast and youtwo did an episode together and
you spoke about your decision oncamera choice and lensing and I
(24:18):
thought that that was veryinteresting, especially for our
audience.
So let's talk about the choicesthat you made there and the
conversations you were havingabout why you chose what gear.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Yeah, totally so.
Shout out to Benji Dell, he's amutual friend.
We just found out Benji.
Totally so shout out to BenjiDell, he's a mutual friend.
We just found out Benji Dell.
We know him, benji Dell, thebest Cool guy.
So Benji and I went to filmschool together, so we knew each
other all the way back atUniversity of Michigan and we
had just always kind of chattedabout trying to find something
to connect on and when thispopped up, I was like this might
be the thing and Benji happenedto have like a window open in
(24:52):
his schedule to shoot it, and soit was just super fun for him
and I to get to like get backtogether and get the band
cruising again.
But yeah, so the gear that weended up choosing and some of it
was also like at the behest ofhaving not a lot of money and
seeing what Benji had in his kit, but Benji's got great gear and
(25:18):
also, like you know, know, ifwe needed to go elsewhere, it's
like obviously, very importantbut the stuff we kind of ended
up with.
The ideology was have verycinematic camera.
So we ended up going just withan alexa and alexa mini but then
the lensing in front of that,we really wanted something that
we could play zooms on.
To almost kind of give it moreof that, doc feel, um and ng and
benji just kind of put in like,you know, servo zooms and stuff
like that so he could literallyplay the zooms while he was
hand holding Because he wasoperating as well.
Correct, yeah, he was eitherhand holding or a lot of it was
(25:41):
easy rig for him, but he wantedto be able to play it.
He's so good at just beingintuitive and like there's I but
it's a dance between a cameraoperator and a performer and so
for the ballet parts, literallyhe's kind of a part of the
choreography and even just forlike a quiet, you know, dialogue
scene, then you would feel outthose moments to like just just
(26:03):
touch on the zooms and likebreathe a little bit and like
close a little bit and and findhis way through a scene which
was just beautiful.
Um, so we ended up we had tofind lenses that were light
enough to handheld, becausethat's the other thing is, we
knew we were handhelding and alot of those moving and totally
yeah, and so we ended up withthese, um, these zooms, I think
(26:23):
they're called dco's.
Benji's probably gonna like sendme a text and hate me for this.
I think they're called dcozooms.
They're out of china andthey're actually fairly new, but
they have a very vintage lookto them.
So they have a lot of characterand stuff which we kind of love
.
They kind of gave it almostlike a 16 millimeter kind of
vibe and so pairing these kindof vintage-y small zooms and we
just we shot 95% of the movie ontwo zooms it was a wide zoom
(26:47):
and a long zoom.
And then there was one scenewhen Cam passes out and we we at
that point took a super speedprime and floated it in front of
the camera.
We didn't attach it and thatkind of like you know lets in
little light leaks and it kindof like shifts your focal plane
and stuff and played into cambeing knocked out.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Sorry we let us swear yeah sweet cam was fucking
knocked out.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
But that really happened in real life.
So I mean, like you know, hepassed out when he heard and so
like he was going through a lotand so like Benji and him kind
of playing that moment andfinding it together was super
beautiful.
So that was kind of theideology behind.
It is like marrying cinema,with Doc lensing and letting
Benji and Cam feel out themoments.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
And was there a decision with that?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
as far as creatively with the ballet, yeah, I mean
the fact that we wanted toreally be able to flow with the
ballet and flow with thechoreography and make sure that
Benji could accommodate on thefly.
There was also the shootings.
We shot a 30-minute piece inthree days, so it's like you're
flying and so being able to toreally feel things out in the
(27:55):
moment and make quickadjustments and like having two
zooms like 50 50 you're gonna beon the right zoom already when
something happens.
So like that's a good thingbecause you may be swapping
primes all this time yeah um,and then shout out to our first
ac bryce too, because he didn'thave a mark in the movie, like
we know there's no's no marks inthe whole movie.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
There's a lot of movement in the movie yeah and
Bryce he just sit there and ripsharps at the monitor.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
He's a monster.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
So also a U of M alumni, and also was on the
roller hockey team for Michigan,which I was too, which is a
total.
We didn't even know each otherbefore the shoot.
It's so random.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
He knew me from roller hockey program so, like,
very strange, but it was awesome.
So, yeah, great camera team isworth its weight in gold,
absolutely yeah.
There is something that yousaid on Cameron's podcast that I
want to bring up uh, that someof the decision to choose those
lenses and put them on thatcamera, specifically, um, is
that you wanted to show theathleticism in ballet.
Like, yes, ballet is thisbeautiful.
Uh, they make it look very easy, kind of um sport but it is a
(29:00):
sport totally so like.
There's the beauty, if I'mremembering correctly, the
beauty of the alexa mini, andthen the grit of these lenses
that you chose totally togetherkind of will show that yeah, um
and I thought that was reallycool.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
That was one of our chats early on yeah, no, early
on, we really wanted to likeportray really what it was like
you know behind the curtain andthen showing just how how much
these athletes like really haveto push.
And it's an impact sport, likeyou're impacting every time and,
honestly, like when you'redoing something exactly the same
over and over again, it's worseon your body than like these
(29:36):
other impact sports.
Where you're you're getting hita little different every single
time, you know.
And so, um, so cam and I, likeearly on, were saying like we
really wanted to make sure, likethat it's portrayed as a gritty
, and while we have a second, Ialso want to shout out to uh
danny sofka yeah because,
Speaker 1 (29:55):
she was the one who brought up both of us together,
and she was also a producer onthe film as well, also ballet
dancer also a ballet dancer aswell also has that two acls done
.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Also had an acl done I wanted to ask you actually um
how do you feel after the day of4 000 double tours?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
oh, like crap yeah, I felt terrible.
Knees are fine.
You know, it's one of thosethings where, luckily, I've had
a long enough time dancing whereyou can keep doing something
and keep being physical andbeing at the right place at the
right time doing the right thingand still be absolutely dead
(30:36):
tired.
But luckily that next day wasan off day and the day after
that was very minimal dancing um.
But yeah, I don't think I'veever done as many double tours
in one day as I did forsandpaper.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That was a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
It's not an easy move either.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And anybody that I talked to was like yeah, we were
all scared that you were goingto do something on that day.
It's going to happen again.
All in a day, we're taking youto the hospital.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Now the movie's over.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Thank goodness it's not.
There was one more.
Did you want me to finish thatgritty thought?
Speaker 4 (31:15):
um, yeah.
So basically at the end of theday, cam and I just like early
it was a very early discussionof just like portraying the
grittiness behind the dancingand like the real, the real
athleticism and the strive andjust grit that it takes to get
through it and not, uh, justshow the beauty because on the
outside on stage, it's gorgeousand it looks amazing, but you
(31:36):
just don't realize like theinsane amount of training and
athleticism to get to that pointyeah and pushing through pain
like that's just like part ofthe thing is like oh, your feet
are gonna be messed up forevernow, and you sometimes have an
injury.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You're just like gracefully moving through.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It's wild.
It's wild and also another bigreason why I wanted to make it
and both of us had thisconversation early on was a lot
of what's portrayed in film andTV when it comes to ballet and
dance in general is really notrepresented of what it actually
is like to do that art form.
(32:14):
Right, you know it's eithervery dainty and very pretty or
it's psychotic and mental andbackstabby.
Yeah, it's very opposite ends,and so we wanted to show more of
the reality of it.
It's very gritty, it's acontact sport.
(32:36):
You know there's a lot of workthat goes into it.
There is, but you know, thereit produces a product that's
very aesthetically pleasing, andalso there are people involved.
You know there is human,there's humanity to it it's
highly competitive, but you findthe people right in it.
Right, it's so interesting whena movie comes out or a tv show
(33:01):
comes out where dance and balletis is the focal point.
I can't tell you how manypeople come to me and be like,
hey, I just saw insert show ormovie man, those ballet dancers,
they're.
They're so crazy, aren't they?
And it's like, well, there's acertain lunacy you have to have,
(33:22):
but, just like any other careerwhere you're passionate about
and to your point, there's acertain humanity that people
can't relate to, and I thinkthat's part of the reason, among
other things, why people aren'tgoing to see dance as much or
dance is not funded as much.
You know we, you know dancershave the same rigor as a
(33:46):
professional athlete, but we getpaid peanuts, right, for that
work.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Because it's hard to see.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Hard to see.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Like the art form, evilness.
Yeah, yeah, it makes it hard tosee the humanity but also
there's not as many sponsors.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
There's not as many.
You know it's.
It's a very antiquated way ofthinking about art yeah that
just people aren't interested init go to more ballet guys.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
It's watch what they do, it's awesome, and then try
to do it and then go watch theballet again because yeah, yeah,
yes.
Let me ask those two do youthink?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
is it also because, like ballet is so quantifiable,
where it's like you're eithernailing it or you're not,
whereas, like, if you're in afootball game or maybe I should
say another sport, like a soccergame, it's like that guy's
getting goals, he's worth whatwe're paying him.
Or like, oh, but he's notgetting goals, but he's getting
assists.
Or like, oh, that guy's aplaymaker, yeah, even, but he's
getting assists.
Or like, oh, that guy's aplaymaker, yeah, even, though
he's got a knock.
There's like all these levelsof what your value is, and I
(34:43):
feel like in ballet it's likeyou're either nailing it or
you're not nailing it.
You know, I don't know.
Do you think it's kind of likethat?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Is that maybe part of it Part?
It is hard to quantify, qualifythat, but there's also so many
other things.
Just like a soccer player or anAmerican football player, you
know we love seeing thequarterback talk about plays and
(35:15):
how much they have to do on anygiven Sunday, right and the
process, we love it.
And then you see them gettingbeat up and then they come back,
you know, at the last twominutes and then it gets get the
field goal and everyone's happy.
You know like so.
So there is a certain, yes,results driven, but there's no
(35:35):
scoreboard in ballet.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
And so it's more of an aesthetic, personal art.
You know how we perceive it umsubjective so many ways yeah,
very subjective, just like any,any, any art form, but it's it's
a weird mix, so it's somethingI I always think about a lot,
(36:00):
especially now when we're tryingto make sandpaper into
something bigger, into a series.
How to demonstrate thatdistance between the physical
and the art, and how do you makethat into an industry that can
keep going forward.
Okay, yay, sandpaper is goingto be a series.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Let's talk about this .
Did we hear it here first?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
I probably alluded to it in other.
It's on its way.
It's on its way.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
You heard it here as well.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Sandpaper is going to be a series.
Where are you in that process?
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Well, right now I'm working on character arcs,
developments of seasons.
I have a few drafts of some ofthe episodes.
The pilot is kind of where I'mspending most of my time on in
terms of just sandpaper,tweaking it, seeing what plant
(37:02):
seeds in it so that people guesswhat they want.
Um, yeah, just just beingcreative about it and how to
best show more reality and morehumanity in the dance world.
Um, and have it be accessibleand people enjoying it.
So it doesn't seem like another.
(37:23):
Okay, I'll name it black swanor tiny pretty thing.
So it's not those types ofshows.
Yeah, hopefully people canrelate to it I'm really happy to
hear this.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
congratulations, thank you on Congratulations on
having a creative idea,completing a creative idea and
now growing with it.
Really, how can people find youand follow along and eventually
find a series, and how can theywatch Sandpaper if they want to
?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, you can find me on Instagram.
I'm at CameronAB123.
Tiktok CameronAB.
I also have my website, theCameronAB123.
Tiktok CameronAB.
I also have my website,cameronabcom.
I also have the CameronABpodcast, which shouts out to
cinematography for actors,because it is not easy making a
podcast at any level, I try todo it just with myself and your
(38:21):
podcast is great, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
I try to do it just with myself, and it's a lot yeah
.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
I listened to it.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm really happy that you did I it, it it's.
It's a little bit of a labor oflove, but it's definitely a
labor for me, especially when Ihave so many other things.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
You're writing a series, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm also just trying to survive and live my life.
I have a couple episodes that Ihave yet to get to Shouts out
to Cinematographer.
You guys are killing it.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Thanks guys.
Is there a festival coming up?
Where do we find Soundpeeper?
Do we have to wait?
We haven't really figured out.
We're still on the festivaljourney right now.
It's at the moment not publiclya festival coming up.
Where do we find Sound?
Speaker 4 (39:01):
Paper.
Do we have to wait?
We can wait.
What do you think we haven'treally figured out.
We're still on the festivaljourney right now, so it's like
at the moment, not publiclyavailable but, someday, when it
kind of gets to that point oflike festivals kind of like are
done, we'll have to figure outwhat we want to do with it.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Festival announcements on Instagram
probably Okay great Okay great.
Speaker 6 (39:16):
We'll have that.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Follow and see if you are near a festival or going to
a festival where Sandpaper willplay.
And Danny Mooney, how canpeople follow you?
Get involved.
Find out about your nextventure that you'll win an award
on.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
I don't really do social media.
I'm on the other end of it but,like you, can always find me on
all those places.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Like, I have profiles that I don't post on and stuff,
stuff.
So if you ever want to watch anempty profile, you can go to
the danny mooney on anything andthere's also a lot of stuff
that you've created.
People can go to imdb andsearch for your name and find
some things.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
There you go.
Yeah, you can go down that listand find stuff and watch some
things stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Lots of stuff, lots of stuff.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
So cool to talk to you guys today.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having us.
It's inspiring.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Thanks for listening guys.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
Join us in bridging the gap between talent and crew.
Start by subscribing on yourpreferred podcast platform.
Sign up for our newsletter tostay up to date on vendor
discounts, community events andnew podcast releases, and
educate yourself through ourfree course releases on YouTube.
It all starts atcinematographyfractorscom and if
you liked this episode,consider leaving a review to
make it easier for otherlisteners to find us.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.