November 8, 2024 • 27 mins
Water as the Source of Urban Public Space
Have you ever wondered how to give nature a voice in urban development? The City of Mechelen in Belgium does exactly that while reimagining the connection between water, public spaces, animals, plants and people. In two episodes of the Cities Reimagined Podcast we zoom in to reshape your understanding of how the interests of more-than-human inhabitants can be taken up in urban transformation projects. This is part one out of two exploring the work done by the WATSUPS project. Click here for part two (coming soon) where we talk about the voices of nature and the experiences of the citizen panel in WATSUPS.
More and more cities are reimagining their connection to their rivers, ponds and other water bodies. Whereas historically, cities have turned their back to the water as it was used primarily for economic purposes, in the 21st century, this perception has significantly shifted: Water in cities is a source of livability and sustainability.
The City of Mechelen has been taking a groundbreaking approach to reconnect its inhabitants (humans, animals and plants) to the water. As part of the “Water as the Source of Urban Public Spaces” (in short: WATSUPS - funded by the European Urban Initiative and running from 2024 to 2027) Mechelen is going to radically reshape the face of the city along the River Dijle while ensuring everyone has access to the water while making the more-than-human perspective a leading principle of the transformation. WATSUPS demonstrates how the spirit and principles of the New European Bauhaus can be translated into local, innovative actions.
Listen in to the two Cities Reimagined episodes where we explore how Mechelen is giving back the River Dijle to all inhabitants: human and more-than-human.
In this episode
· How the City of Mechelen is giving back the River Dijle to its inhabitants...
· How public administration needs to seek compromises between interests...
· Why being a civil servant is the most difficult job there is...
· How including artists in co-creation/participation processes might lead to a cultural shift...
· How fun and a positive energy are key to innovation...
More information and materials mentioned in the podcast:
· European Urban Initiative: https://www.urban-initiative.eu/
· Portico - The Gateway to Urban Learning: https://portico.urban-initiative.eu
· WATSUPS - Article: Beautiful, Sustainable, Together: Reimagining Mechelen’s Relationship with Water, Biodiversity in Urban Public Space while Tackling Gentrification
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's the water that makes a difference in these cities.
(00:13):
It's a romantic element, water in the city.
It's the last element of nature that is not fully tamed, I think.
This makes water so special and I think it attracts people.
Hi, and welcome back to the Cities Reimagined podcast.
I'm your voice of choice, Johannes Riegler, and in this episode, we will explore how the
(00:33):
city of Mechelen is reimagining its connection to water and nature.
Also welcome if you're listening to this episode via the Urban Voices podcast channel.
Worldwide urban areas are reimagining and reinterpreting the role of water in their
(00:54):
cities.
In the past too often, cities have turned their back towards their streams and towards
the water bodies and ponds, and that was primarily due to industrialization and pollution.
But if you look at it from a global perspective, having a river or a stream running through
a city is luxury and a source of life where humans and animals and plants can thrive.
(01:18):
The city of Mechelen in Belgium aims at connecting people, nature, the water and the river and
the public spaces around it in completely new ways.
For example, by giving the interests of nature and certain species a voice in the participation
processes.
This has been made possible by the European Urban Initiative in the scope of the WhatsApp
(01:43):
project that stands for Water as the Source for Urban Public Spaces.
I have the pleasure to work with the team behind the project of the city of Mechelen
over the next three and a half years as an innovation expert guiding the project, looking
at what is going on and capturing the knowledge of the project and bringing it to you and
(02:06):
to everybody interested in it.
This is the first of two episodes of initial episodes actually where we're going to dive
into the WhatsApp project and have a look at what is ongoing in Mechelen.
We will come back to that later on as well. The project runs until 2027, so we are in
the early stages of it.
But we will hear about that, how it's going, what the ambitions were from the guests in
(02:28):
this episode and in the next one.
In this first part, Nicole Lakoma, you heard her already in the beginning of this episode.
She's working for the city of Mechelen and will tell us about how to get such an ambitious
project running and what role participation and fun plays in it.
(02:49):
In the second part, to which I really invite you to check it out, Mark van der Weyken,
also working for the city of Mechelen, takes us on a deep dive into the modern human co-creation
processes including the role of empathy and how the needs and the voices of nature can
contribute actually to the principles of these kind of large-scale urban transformation processes.
(03:12):
Good enough for the monologue. Here is my chat with Nicole Lakoma on reimagining Mechelen's
connection with the water.
Hi, Nicole. Welcome to the podcast, to Cities Reimagined.
When we first met in Mechelen, when we went on the bike ride with your colleagues, I remember
that your colleagues introduced you as somebody who makes things happen in the city. Tell
(03:34):
us a little bit about your role in the city, in your work with the city of Mechelen. What
do you do really?
Well, I started a long time ago in 2007 as a head of a youth service. I came across a
lot of young people who wanted to change a lot in the city and own the city. One of the
(03:56):
things that I first did, which I'm still very proud of now, is that we built a skate park.
Well, actually, the skaters built it themselves in concrete. It was really difficult to convince
people that we shouldn't get a contractor, but have the people working with concrete
and really building the skate park itself. I think that I had so much fun actually accomplishing
(04:26):
this that I think at that moment I realized that I wanted to have an impact on the city
and this is what I wanted to continue to do. Then I started with European projects within
the youth service. I became funding advisor and these European projects all about transformation
(04:47):
and in the city and changing things. You also see that also the policy, I think policy makers
in Mechelen, Mechelen is really known for the transformation that has been true since
the early 2000s. It has been known as a neglected, dirty city, public domain was ugly. It has
(05:10):
been, it was conceived as a very ugly city. Then a new mayor, Bart Zomers came in 2000
and he really invested a lot in public domain. Also for civil servants, a lot was possible
to change and to test and to experiment. He was someone-
Right. I remember that when I was there the last time, somebody told me Mechelen was,
(05:34):
how was it, was referred to the Chicago of Belgium or something like that. But this changed
it all and the new mayor and the policies changed and things became-
Yeah, it's changed a lot and it's also known and famous for the change it has been through
the last 20 years. You also see this change in the culture and in the people itself. They
(06:01):
used to be said that people from Mechelen were nagging people that were never happy.
I see now in Mechelen a lot of people who are really proud of the city and are really
proud to be in Mechelen and are really more positive towards the future also. I'm not
born in Mechelen, I was born in the north of Belgium. I also came here in 2006 as an
(06:25):
immigrant from Brussels then. But I really like the vibe of the people and the city.
All these things make that there are a lot of possibilities. There are a lot of people
there to dream and as a civil servant, you can continue and work with that as much as
(06:45):
possible. That's why I think that people also see me as someone who wants to change things.
It's not only me, but it's also the setting of Mechelen that I ended up in, in this setting
that made it stronger, this ambition to have an impact.
That's really beautiful. Yeah.
Also when I want to convince my colleagues of trying something difficult and doing something
(07:13):
of which they first think this is impossible, I always say imagine then that you can tell
your children like I've changed this, I've did this. And of course with the skate park,
I have two sons who are now 14 of 19 and who have been to the skate park. And I can tell
them like when you were small, I actually accomplished this with young people.
That's very nice. That's very nice. And your new project or the project you're now working
(07:38):
on is mainly or besides others, but it's the WhatsApp project, right? The water as the
source of urban space projects. It is what you, when you just talked about your experience
and how you see, how you motivate your colleagues to do things, which seem very hard. I think
that project is very much so, right? It is a very big and complicated project or complex
(08:03):
project. Tell us a bit about that.
On the one hand, I'm a romantic soul. So, and I think that if you look at the most romantic
cities in the world, or in Europe at least, all these cities are defined by their water
race. The most romantic cities are Paris at the Seine and is Venice with its waterways.
And if you look even in Belgium, Bruges is the most popular famous city. And it's not
(08:27):
because of the, it has beautiful heritage, but Mecklen also has beautiful heritage. Brussels,
it has beautiful heritage. It's the water that makes a difference in these cities. And
it's a romantic element, water in a city. It's one of, in a complete urban dense area,
it's the last element of nature that is not fully tamed, I think. And this makes water
(08:50):
so special and it's, I think it attracts people. It makes them, gives them a different vibe.
So I always seen it as a potential of the river that was not fully unlocked. So there
was still, we had a small part of a floating part of the river, which I liked very much,
but it's only one part and then it stopped. And you have car parks next to the river,
(09:15):
you have boats blocking the view. So I was like, why don't you do something with the
river? It's also the sort of the logical next step in all the transition that Mechelen has
been through. Mechelen used to have the small canals like Venice and in the 1910, 1920,
(09:35):
they covered it. In the beginning of 2000s, they started to open up these canals from
touristic point of view, economic point of view, making the city more attractive. And
citizens became very enthusiastic. It has become the most popular spots are the squares
and streets where these small canals were opened up. But then the river itself, the
(09:56):
Dale, the Dale river, this river has so much potential, which is not used. And even as
much easier than opening up all these canals. We should do boats and we have to open them
up. So I think if you look at what Mechelen has been doing the last 20 years and you look
at it's the logical next step. And I believe that citizens also see it as a logical next
(10:21):
step because actually a few years ago, there was a huge participation campaign where people
could come up with new ideas for the city. And they actually named a few, there were
a few proposals of developing the river again as a true green eco corridor to the city.
So even people suggested to work on this river.
(10:44):
Which is also very beautiful because this comes out of a co-creation process, this idea
of, it was mentioned by the people, the residents of Mechelen that they would like to do that.
And then you took it up in the public administration and developed a huge project out of it, right?
Yeah, there were elements of it already. There were some ideas of parts of the river, but
(11:05):
it was all very fragmented. And this project combines it all and it makes it a bigger concept.
It makes it as they also call it a master plan of the river. Now the project. And I
also believe that the fact that it is the complete river and a bigger project even attracts
(11:27):
more attention to it, makes people more enthusiastic about it. And it also even makes politicians
to raise their ambitions even higher.
Very nice. Would you like to briefly introduce in a nutshell what WhatsApp is? Because there
are several sites and all the sites have different use cases or different functions at the end
(11:53):
of the project. And there will be publications we refer to at the Cities Rematch and Podcast
as well to those publications. But just in a nutshell, what is WhatsApp?
It's about water as a source of public space. So it's really giving the water back to the
people and really integrating it as a part, a valuable part of the public domain by making
(12:17):
the case accessible and making the river more visible, but also making sure that the river
is an ecosystem and balanced with quality water and with a lot of biodiversity. So it's
really making this eco corridor stronger and making it as a fully fledged part of the public
(12:39):
domain. And for all people, it should be inclusive. Everyone should be profiting from the river,
not just tourism, not just the pubs and the cafes having their terraces. It should be
publicly accessible and also nature itself, the biodiversity should be respected.
(13:01):
And it really is the, it runs along all the sites of the project, running along the whole
Binnendaele, right? The whole length of the river through the old part of Mechelen, which
is very, very long. And I'm wondering, because a transformation project like this on such
a large scale also has very different interests, right? By different people in the city, by
(13:23):
different organizations, by different actors involved, what are the hardest nuts to crack
with a project with this transformation of the river and the connection of the river
through Mechelen?
Well, you see, after the COVID epidemic, people also rediscovered public domain and rediscovered
(13:50):
it as a part of their life, as a part of their homes. And you see that there are already
a lot of claims on the river. And as a city, you have to serve all your stakeholders, all
your citizens, all your citizens. And I think this is the most challenging and it's always
the most challenging for all cities to combine all these different interests, these different
(14:13):
needs. And you cannot prioritize because people always say, especially in a sort of economical
way of thinking, you should prioritize. I really believe that the city may not prioritize
because prioritizing means discriminating part of a target group, responsible for all.
(14:36):
So the project has to be a big compromise, a very balanced one and a very good one. And
that's why being a civil servant is the most difficult job there is.
Yeah. Wow.
Also what I like about the project or how you approach things, also what you just said,
you really work with this complex system of the city, right? You do not only redevelop
(14:58):
the public spaces around the Dailer, but you actually take in other perspectives of nature
and biodiversity, you take into account aspects of gentrification. There are so many different
angles which you connect with this redevelopment of the public spaces around along the Dailer,
(15:19):
which is really remarkable, which somehow I feel reflects this kind of what you just
said, this different interests, this complexity you deal with in your daily work, right?
Yes, that makes it most challenging. But with this, it has always been challenging if you
(15:39):
work on public domain. Now, what we have did in Mechelen always was considering these investments
in public domain, also something that has to be parallel with projects on social inclusion.
So the inclusiveness and the participation is something that we have always taking very
much into account. I always joke about the fact that this typical European new Bauhaus
(16:06):
aspect of combining these things is something that Mechelen has invented in 2000 and Ursula
van der Leyen just took it from us. But it's challenging, but we also are used to doing
this. And it's good that, for instance, the Flemish Waterways is a partner in the project
(16:28):
as well. It's really engaged because they reflect the needs of boat owners of the economic
part of the river. The different services of the city are involved, like the sports
service who represents also and also works with the stakeholders, like the swimming clubs
(16:48):
in the city.
Tell us a little bit more concretely, how do you do that? What is there to learn also
for other cities or for other people who work with this complexity?
We still have a way to go there, but it's to making all these services cooperate within
the city because we also always talk about integrated policy, but actually cities are
(17:12):
still very much organized and structured in silos. And cooperating, having the people
of the sports service talk to the people of social department, of the people of infrastructure
and also involving their stakeholders. We go and talk to the swimming club and also
see like, okay, if you want to do an event here, like a competition, what do you need?
(17:36):
What it looked like if you're going to develop this piece of the pontoons and the access
to the swimming port that you're going to develop in the north? What do you need? And
to give these needs to the infrastructure department.
And the cooperation is really difficult. We have this huge steering group. People cannot
(17:56):
always attend, but depending on the agenda, we invite them. We invite external people
depending on the agenda and getting this cooperation going is fun.
But that is also so inspiring, I find, because you bring up another element besides how you
make people work together in a very process-like approach, but you bring in fun because is
(18:23):
that a leading principle somehow for your work? Because I think you spread such a positive
energy as well, I find, and such an enthusiasm about the project and also how you just talked
about the skate park. Is that something you need in the public administration to drag
people along and motivate them to do something different, fun and the positive energy to
(18:45):
actually overcome challenges?
It's the only way to motivate people because if you have such an ambitious question for
them, and if you want them to do something more than what they regularly do, why should
they do it? Why should they be happy to cooperate? It's not when you give them all these problems
(19:06):
immediately and say like, okay, now please solve it. But if you present it as something
like a challenge that you can accomplish together and make fun in the meantime, then people
will be happy to do it.
Yes, I believe so too. And part of this project, or also in general, I think there's a lot
to learn about WhatsApps, about the methods and the processes you implement in Mechelen.
(19:35):
And I was wondering, you have a couple of transfer cities as well in the project, these
Leovaten in the Netherlands, Cantania in Sicily and Tristianstad in Sweden, who are
going to learn from your experience per se. But there are so many really innovative angles
to this project where I feel like this has not been tried on a larger scale or in a city,
(19:58):
these approaches yet. Tell us a little bit of what do you think are the main learnings
from the project or you envision the learnings from the project, which can inspire others
and can be translated to other urban areas and inspire other policymakers or public administrations?
Considering the water as a real part of public domain and how you do this and how you also
(20:23):
make the river a part of your target group by considering it an active target group that
will get a voice. But it's also interesting for other cities how to, not only how to do
this, but how not to be afraid of the differences that they might come across because it's not
(20:44):
always easy when people, in a participation process, you want to involve people, but you
will also start polarization by starting the discussion and you will also make people temper
your ambitions and you just want to reach the opposite. And that's why a lot of other
(21:08):
cities are a bit reluctant to start a process. So I think this is something that can give
them courage to do it if we dare to do it, I hope. And of course, there are elements,
technical things like how do you tackle water quality? How do you make a river accessible?
How do you communicate with your boats in the harbor? If you want to relocate boats
(21:33):
and these things, how do you solve problems? Of course, it's always interesting. But I
think taking away their fears is the most important thing.
What I really like about how you describe this challenge of transformation and bringing
together different perspectives and interests as well is this that you don't see it as a
(21:54):
problem or this friction as a problem, but you see it as something, at least I interpret
it as such, as something which is kind of needed to find a consensus or to find a way
forward. Because if you do not take that into account, you might run into problems later
on where there's just more friction and more opposition and so on. Do you have some thoughts
(22:17):
on that?
Well, I think friction is part of policy, of democracy, and people have been losing
their faith in democracy the last years. And I also think that this project can support
giving faith again in democracy because learning people how to cooperate and talk about problems
(22:42):
in a constructive way and not in a polarized method, which is now being very, yeah, nowadays
social media is really strengthening this polarization. And this is going back again
to another way of constructive cooperation and showing people that these different points
(23:03):
of view are interesting and enriching and how to find a compromise and showing them
that it's always difficult, but this difficulty that we need to change something.
So you're at the beginning of the, or rather at the beginning of the project, right? And
I will have the pleasure to work with you over the next three years. So we will come
(23:24):
back to this conversation occasionally and there will be more publications and eventually
more podcast episodes on the progress. So our listeners can also follow it out. But
tell us a little bit, what is going on in the next year for WhatsApp? What are the next
steps? What are the big milestones you're looking forward?
(23:47):
The next steps are the really in-depth participation trajectories with citizens and stakeholders
on the specific building sites next to the river and to come up with the design for it.
And so this design and very in-depth participation process are the next steps. This will be very
(24:08):
interesting and also going to define the projects to a large extent. So that will be very nice.
We will also involve artists in this process so they can later on use their inspiration
of the people to develop also an artwork on the River Dial, which would strengthen even
(24:28):
their sense of belonging and being a part of it because he based it on people's input.
And the methods and developing the trajectories will be the next thing. And it will be very
interesting on how we can come up with new methods with visualization and also how to
integrate the voice of nature in this. So I'm really looking forward to how this will happen.
(24:52):
Nicole, thank you so much for your time today. I'm excited to follow that and come to Mechelen
soon. Yes, very welcome in Mechelen. I hope we see you soon there.
This was the first of two parts where we dive into the WhatsApp project, a project run by
the city of Mechelen funded by the European Urban Initiative. If you want to find out
(25:15):
more about the project, check out the links in the description in the show notes below
or check out Portico, which is the European Urban Initiative's gateway to urban learning.
So you find a lot of resources and further information on this and more projects on there.
Well, please don't forget to check out the second part of this conversation with Mark
(25:37):
van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen. And he's going to talk about the more than
human approach in co-creation and how to give the voice of nature a stake in a co-creation
and participatory process. I really invite you to check it out because it's a really
good episode and Mark has so much knowledge and experiences to share. And it's so interesting
(25:59):
how a city, how a local public administration is taking the extra mile in the scope of the
WhatsApp project to experiment and really redefine the city's connection with the nature,
but also with the more than human inhabitants, with the animals and plants living in the
city. So please check it out. The link is also below.
(26:24):
That's it for now. Thanks for listening in and I hope to catch you soon.
It's the water that makes a difference in these cities.
(00:13):
It's a romantic element, water in the city.
It's the last element of nature that is not fully tamed, I think.
This makes water so special and I think it attracts people.
Hi, and welcome back to the Cities Reimagined podcast.
I'm your voice of choice, Johannes Riegler, and in this episode, we will explore how the
(00:33):
city of Mechelen is reimagining its connection to water and nature.
Also welcome if you're listening to this episode via the Urban Voices podcast channel.
Worldwide urban areas are reimagining and reinterpreting the role of water in their
(00:54):
cities.
In the past too often, cities have turned their back towards their streams and towards
the water bodies and ponds, and that was primarily due to industrialization and pollution.
But if you look at it from a global perspective, having a river or a stream running through
a city is luxury and a source of life where humans and animals and plants can thrive.
(01:18):
The city of Mechelen in Belgium aims at connecting people, nature, the water and the river and
the public spaces around it in completely new ways.
For example, by giving the interests of nature and certain species a voice in the participation
processes.
This has been made possible by the European Urban Initiative in the scope of the WhatsApp
(01:43):
project that stands for Water as the Source for Urban Public Spaces.
I have the pleasure to work with the team behind the project of the city of Mechelen
over the next three and a half years as an innovation expert guiding the project, looking
at what is going on and capturing the knowledge of the project and bringing it to you and
(02:06):
to everybody interested in it.
This is the first of two episodes of initial episodes actually where we're going to dive
into the WhatsApp project and have a look at what is ongoing in Mechelen.
We will come back to that later on as well. The project runs until 2027, so we are in
the early stages of it.
But we will hear about that, how it's going, what the ambitions were from the guests in
(02:28):
this episode and in the next one.
In this first part, Nicole Lakoma, you heard her already in the beginning of this episode.
She's working for the city of Mechelen and will tell us about how to get such an ambitious
project running and what role participation and fun plays in it.
(02:49):
In the second part, to which I really invite you to check it out, Mark van der Weyken,
also working for the city of Mechelen, takes us on a deep dive into the modern human co-creation
processes including the role of empathy and how the needs and the voices of nature can
contribute actually to the principles of these kind of large-scale urban transformation processes.
(03:12):
Good enough for the monologue. Here is my chat with Nicole Lakoma on reimagining Mechelen's
connection with the water.
Hi, Nicole. Welcome to the podcast, to Cities Reimagined.
When we first met in Mechelen, when we went on the bike ride with your colleagues, I remember
that your colleagues introduced you as somebody who makes things happen in the city. Tell
(03:34):
us a little bit about your role in the city, in your work with the city of Mechelen. What
do you do really?
Well, I started a long time ago in 2007 as a head of a youth service. I came across a
lot of young people who wanted to change a lot in the city and own the city. One of the
(03:56):
things that I first did, which I'm still very proud of now, is that we built a skate park.
Well, actually, the skaters built it themselves in concrete. It was really difficult to convince
people that we shouldn't get a contractor, but have the people working with concrete
and really building the skate park itself. I think that I had so much fun actually accomplishing
(04:26):
this that I think at that moment I realized that I wanted to have an impact on the city
and this is what I wanted to continue to do. Then I started with European projects within
the youth service. I became funding advisor and these European projects all about transformation
(04:47):
and in the city and changing things. You also see that also the policy, I think policy makers
in Mechelen, Mechelen is really known for the transformation that has been true since
the early 2000s. It has been known as a neglected, dirty city, public domain was ugly. It has
(05:10):
been, it was conceived as a very ugly city. Then a new mayor, Bart Zomers came in 2000
and he really invested a lot in public domain. Also for civil servants, a lot was possible
to change and to test and to experiment. He was someone-
Right. I remember that when I was there the last time, somebody told me Mechelen was,
(05:34):
how was it, was referred to the Chicago of Belgium or something like that. But this changed
it all and the new mayor and the policies changed and things became-
Yeah, it's changed a lot and it's also known and famous for the change it has been through
the last 20 years. You also see this change in the culture and in the people itself. They
(06:01):
used to be said that people from Mechelen were nagging people that were never happy.
I see now in Mechelen a lot of people who are really proud of the city and are really
proud to be in Mechelen and are really more positive towards the future also. I'm not
born in Mechelen, I was born in the north of Belgium. I also came here in 2006 as an
(06:25):
immigrant from Brussels then. But I really like the vibe of the people and the city.
All these things make that there are a lot of possibilities. There are a lot of people
there to dream and as a civil servant, you can continue and work with that as much as
(06:45):
possible. That's why I think that people also see me as someone who wants to change things.
It's not only me, but it's also the setting of Mechelen that I ended up in, in this setting
that made it stronger, this ambition to have an impact.
That's really beautiful. Yeah.
Also when I want to convince my colleagues of trying something difficult and doing something
(07:13):
of which they first think this is impossible, I always say imagine then that you can tell
your children like I've changed this, I've did this. And of course with the skate park,
I have two sons who are now 14 of 19 and who have been to the skate park. And I can tell
them like when you were small, I actually accomplished this with young people.
That's very nice. That's very nice. And your new project or the project you're now working
(07:38):
on is mainly or besides others, but it's the WhatsApp project, right? The water as the
source of urban space projects. It is what you, when you just talked about your experience
and how you see, how you motivate your colleagues to do things, which seem very hard. I think
that project is very much so, right? It is a very big and complicated project or complex
(08:03):
project. Tell us a bit about that.
On the one hand, I'm a romantic soul. So, and I think that if you look at the most romantic
cities in the world, or in Europe at least, all these cities are defined by their water
race. The most romantic cities are Paris at the Seine and is Venice with its waterways.
And if you look even in Belgium, Bruges is the most popular famous city. And it's not
(08:27):
because of the, it has beautiful heritage, but Mecklen also has beautiful heritage. Brussels,
it has beautiful heritage. It's the water that makes a difference in these cities. And
it's a romantic element, water in a city. It's one of, in a complete urban dense area,
it's the last element of nature that is not fully tamed, I think. And this makes water
(08:50):
so special and it's, I think it attracts people. It makes them, gives them a different vibe.
So I always seen it as a potential of the river that was not fully unlocked. So there
was still, we had a small part of a floating part of the river, which I liked very much,
but it's only one part and then it stopped. And you have car parks next to the river,
(09:15):
you have boats blocking the view. So I was like, why don't you do something with the
river? It's also the sort of the logical next step in all the transition that Mechelen has
been through. Mechelen used to have the small canals like Venice and in the 1910, 1920,
(09:35):
they covered it. In the beginning of 2000s, they started to open up these canals from
touristic point of view, economic point of view, making the city more attractive. And
citizens became very enthusiastic. It has become the most popular spots are the squares
and streets where these small canals were opened up. But then the river itself, the
(09:56):
Dale, the Dale river, this river has so much potential, which is not used. And even as
much easier than opening up all these canals. We should do boats and we have to open them
up. So I think if you look at what Mechelen has been doing the last 20 years and you look
at it's the logical next step. And I believe that citizens also see it as a logical next
(10:21):
step because actually a few years ago, there was a huge participation campaign where people
could come up with new ideas for the city. And they actually named a few, there were
a few proposals of developing the river again as a true green eco corridor to the city.
So even people suggested to work on this river.
(10:44):
Which is also very beautiful because this comes out of a co-creation process, this idea
of, it was mentioned by the people, the residents of Mechelen that they would like to do that.
And then you took it up in the public administration and developed a huge project out of it, right?
Yeah, there were elements of it already. There were some ideas of parts of the river, but
(11:05):
it was all very fragmented. And this project combines it all and it makes it a bigger concept.
It makes it as they also call it a master plan of the river. Now the project. And I
also believe that the fact that it is the complete river and a bigger project even attracts
(11:27):
more attention to it, makes people more enthusiastic about it. And it also even makes politicians
to raise their ambitions even higher.
Very nice. Would you like to briefly introduce in a nutshell what WhatsApp is? Because there
are several sites and all the sites have different use cases or different functions at the end
(11:53):
of the project. And there will be publications we refer to at the Cities Rematch and Podcast
as well to those publications. But just in a nutshell, what is WhatsApp?
It's about water as a source of public space. So it's really giving the water back to the
people and really integrating it as a part, a valuable part of the public domain by making
(12:17):
the case accessible and making the river more visible, but also making sure that the river
is an ecosystem and balanced with quality water and with a lot of biodiversity. So it's
really making this eco corridor stronger and making it as a fully fledged part of the public
(12:39):
domain. And for all people, it should be inclusive. Everyone should be profiting from the river,
not just tourism, not just the pubs and the cafes having their terraces. It should be
publicly accessible and also nature itself, the biodiversity should be respected.
(13:01):
And it really is the, it runs along all the sites of the project, running along the whole
Binnendaele, right? The whole length of the river through the old part of Mechelen, which
is very, very long. And I'm wondering, because a transformation project like this on such
a large scale also has very different interests, right? By different people in the city, by
(13:23):
different organizations, by different actors involved, what are the hardest nuts to crack
with a project with this transformation of the river and the connection of the river
through Mechelen?
Well, you see, after the COVID epidemic, people also rediscovered public domain and rediscovered
(13:50):
it as a part of their life, as a part of their homes. And you see that there are already
a lot of claims on the river. And as a city, you have to serve all your stakeholders, all
your citizens, all your citizens. And I think this is the most challenging and it's always
the most challenging for all cities to combine all these different interests, these different
(14:13):
needs. And you cannot prioritize because people always say, especially in a sort of economical
way of thinking, you should prioritize. I really believe that the city may not prioritize
because prioritizing means discriminating part of a target group, responsible for all.
(14:36):
So the project has to be a big compromise, a very balanced one and a very good one. And
that's why being a civil servant is the most difficult job there is.
Yeah. Wow.
Also what I like about the project or how you approach things, also what you just said,
you really work with this complex system of the city, right? You do not only redevelop
(14:58):
the public spaces around the Dailer, but you actually take in other perspectives of nature
and biodiversity, you take into account aspects of gentrification. There are so many different
angles which you connect with this redevelopment of the public spaces around along the Dailer,
(15:19):
which is really remarkable, which somehow I feel reflects this kind of what you just
said, this different interests, this complexity you deal with in your daily work, right?
Yes, that makes it most challenging. But with this, it has always been challenging if you
(15:39):
work on public domain. Now, what we have did in Mechelen always was considering these investments
in public domain, also something that has to be parallel with projects on social inclusion.
So the inclusiveness and the participation is something that we have always taking very
much into account. I always joke about the fact that this typical European new Bauhaus
(16:06):
aspect of combining these things is something that Mechelen has invented in 2000 and Ursula
van der Leyen just took it from us. But it's challenging, but we also are used to doing
this. And it's good that, for instance, the Flemish Waterways is a partner in the project
(16:28):
as well. It's really engaged because they reflect the needs of boat owners of the economic
part of the river. The different services of the city are involved, like the sports
service who represents also and also works with the stakeholders, like the swimming clubs
(16:48):
in the city.
Tell us a little bit more concretely, how do you do that? What is there to learn also
for other cities or for other people who work with this complexity?
We still have a way to go there, but it's to making all these services cooperate within
the city because we also always talk about integrated policy, but actually cities are
(17:12):
still very much organized and structured in silos. And cooperating, having the people
of the sports service talk to the people of social department, of the people of infrastructure
and also involving their stakeholders. We go and talk to the swimming club and also
see like, okay, if you want to do an event here, like a competition, what do you need?
(17:36):
What it looked like if you're going to develop this piece of the pontoons and the access
to the swimming port that you're going to develop in the north? What do you need? And
to give these needs to the infrastructure department.
And the cooperation is really difficult. We have this huge steering group. People cannot
(17:56):
always attend, but depending on the agenda, we invite them. We invite external people
depending on the agenda and getting this cooperation going is fun.
But that is also so inspiring, I find, because you bring up another element besides how you
make people work together in a very process-like approach, but you bring in fun because is
(18:23):
that a leading principle somehow for your work? Because I think you spread such a positive
energy as well, I find, and such an enthusiasm about the project and also how you just talked
about the skate park. Is that something you need in the public administration to drag
people along and motivate them to do something different, fun and the positive energy to
(18:45):
actually overcome challenges?
It's the only way to motivate people because if you have such an ambitious question for
them, and if you want them to do something more than what they regularly do, why should
they do it? Why should they be happy to cooperate? It's not when you give them all these problems
(19:06):
immediately and say like, okay, now please solve it. But if you present it as something
like a challenge that you can accomplish together and make fun in the meantime, then people
will be happy to do it.
Yes, I believe so too. And part of this project, or also in general, I think there's a lot
to learn about WhatsApps, about the methods and the processes you implement in Mechelen.
(19:35):
And I was wondering, you have a couple of transfer cities as well in the project, these
Leovaten in the Netherlands, Cantania in Sicily and Tristianstad in Sweden, who are
going to learn from your experience per se. But there are so many really innovative angles
to this project where I feel like this has not been tried on a larger scale or in a city,
(19:58):
these approaches yet. Tell us a little bit of what do you think are the main learnings
from the project or you envision the learnings from the project, which can inspire others
and can be translated to other urban areas and inspire other policymakers or public administrations?
Considering the water as a real part of public domain and how you do this and how you also
(20:23):
make the river a part of your target group by considering it an active target group that
will get a voice. But it's also interesting for other cities how to, not only how to do
this, but how not to be afraid of the differences that they might come across because it's not
(20:44):
always easy when people, in a participation process, you want to involve people, but you
will also start polarization by starting the discussion and you will also make people temper
your ambitions and you just want to reach the opposite. And that's why a lot of other
(21:08):
cities are a bit reluctant to start a process. So I think this is something that can give
them courage to do it if we dare to do it, I hope. And of course, there are elements,
technical things like how do you tackle water quality? How do you make a river accessible?
How do you communicate with your boats in the harbor? If you want to relocate boats
(21:33):
and these things, how do you solve problems? Of course, it's always interesting. But I
think taking away their fears is the most important thing.
What I really like about how you describe this challenge of transformation and bringing
together different perspectives and interests as well is this that you don't see it as a
(21:54):
problem or this friction as a problem, but you see it as something, at least I interpret
it as such, as something which is kind of needed to find a consensus or to find a way
forward. Because if you do not take that into account, you might run into problems later
on where there's just more friction and more opposition and so on. Do you have some thoughts
(22:17):
on that?
Well, I think friction is part of policy, of democracy, and people have been losing
their faith in democracy the last years. And I also think that this project can support
giving faith again in democracy because learning people how to cooperate and talk about problems
(22:42):
in a constructive way and not in a polarized method, which is now being very, yeah, nowadays
social media is really strengthening this polarization. And this is going back again
to another way of constructive cooperation and showing people that these different points
(23:03):
of view are interesting and enriching and how to find a compromise and showing them
that it's always difficult, but this difficulty that we need to change something.
So you're at the beginning of the, or rather at the beginning of the project, right? And
I will have the pleasure to work with you over the next three years. So we will come
(23:24):
back to this conversation occasionally and there will be more publications and eventually
more podcast episodes on the progress. So our listeners can also follow it out. But
tell us a little bit, what is going on in the next year for WhatsApp? What are the next
steps? What are the big milestones you're looking forward?
(23:47):
The next steps are the really in-depth participation trajectories with citizens and stakeholders
on the specific building sites next to the river and to come up with the design for it.
And so this design and very in-depth participation process are the next steps. This will be very
(24:08):
interesting and also going to define the projects to a large extent. So that will be very nice.
We will also involve artists in this process so they can later on use their inspiration
of the people to develop also an artwork on the River Dial, which would strengthen even
(24:28):
their sense of belonging and being a part of it because he based it on people's input.
And the methods and developing the trajectories will be the next thing. And it will be very
interesting on how we can come up with new methods with visualization and also how to
integrate the voice of nature in this. So I'm really looking forward to how this will happen.
(24:52):
Nicole, thank you so much for your time today. I'm excited to follow that and come to Mechelen
soon. Yes, very welcome in Mechelen. I hope we see you soon there.
This was the first of two parts where we dive into the WhatsApp project, a project run by
the city of Mechelen funded by the European Urban Initiative. If you want to find out
(25:15):
more about the project, check out the links in the description in the show notes below
or check out Portico, which is the European Urban Initiative's gateway to urban learning.
So you find a lot of resources and further information on this and more projects on there.
Well, please don't forget to check out the second part of this conversation with Mark
(25:37):
van der Weyken from the city of Mechelen. And he's going to talk about the more than
human approach in co-creation and how to give the voice of nature a stake in a co-creation
and participatory process. I really invite you to check it out because it's a really
good episode and Mark has so much knowledge and experiences to share. And it's so interesting
(25:59):
how a city, how a local public administration is taking the extra mile in the scope of the
WhatsApp project to experiment and really redefine the city's connection with the nature,
but also with the more than human inhabitants, with the animals and plants living in the
city. So please check it out. The link is also below.
(26:24):
That's it for now. Thanks for listening in and I hope to catch you soon.
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