Let’s ETOC

Sebastian and Kelly discuss the exciting rise of tenant unionization on the socialist left and how it fits into the broader scope of working-class organizing and the crucial fight for decent housing. To learn more about how you can organize with your neighbors, join the ETOC summer cohort, starting August 8th!

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Obvious way where it's like, yeah, there's a
landlord and I have to pay himevery month in order for me not
to be kicked out.
And what tenant organizing doesis it helps people imagine like
what would be like if youdisrupted that.

(00:26):
Hi comrades, and welcome toCLASS, the podcast of Democratic
Socialists of America's NationalPolitical Education Committee,
or NPEC.
My name is Michaela, and I'm thecurrent chair of NPEC and a
member of North New Jersey DSA.
Before we dive in, a reminderthat CLAS is available on all
major podcast platforms.
Please consider becoming a DSAmember by following the link in

(00:46):
the podcast description.
You can also send us a messageabout the episode and sign up
for Red Letter, NPEC's monthlynewsletter using the provided
links.
The Emergency Tenant OrganizingCommittee, or ETOC, is a project
inspired by the now six-year-oldEWOC, or Emergency Workplace
Organizing Committee that DSAstarted during COVID to help

(01:06):
workers to fight for theirrights in the workplace during
and after the COVID epidemic.
During that time, tenantorganizing and tenant unions
grew too, as evictions increasedand renters were faced with
increasing housing precarity.
Tenant organizing continues togrow, and the struggle for
housing justice has only becomemore crucial a field of work for
socialists as working classpeople are priced out

(01:29):
everywhere, and developers andinvestment firms engage in land
grabs and speculation.
It's more than just a fewtenants of a certain age in a
few major cities, and it's morethan just gentrification.
Staying housed is a human plightall over the country.
And socialists believe housingis a human right.
ETOK's fall session of trainingsbegins on August 8th, and we

(01:52):
urge you to join to learn how toorganize with your neighbors.
The link for that will be in ourshow notes.
And here to discuss all of thiswith us are Kelly, co-chair of
Boston DSA and former co-chairof Boston DSA's Housing Working
Group, and currently a steeringmember of DSA's Housing Justice
Commission.
And Sebastian, a member of NorthCarolina Triangle DSA, who works

(02:15):
for the North Carolina TenantsUnion and is also a member of
DSA's Housing JusticeCommission.
Welcome, Kelly and Sebastian.
Thank you.
Hi.

SPEAKER_04 (02:25):
Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Of course.
I'm gonna ask you the questionwe always ask to everyone who's
new.
How and why did you become asocialist?
And how and why did you joinDSA?
Kelly, you want to take it away?

SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Sure.
I grew up in a reallyconservative family.
My family is very right-leaning.
I was homeschooled as a child.
I went away for college.
I grew up in the East Coast inNew Hampshire.
And when I went away forcollege, was when I kind of
started this journey away fromwhat I had been brought up on
and that sort of rhetoric.

(03:01):
I went to a grad program out inArizona where I became more
radicalized by some of theissues out there, notably among
the indigenous populations andsome of the other issues that
were happening on the collegecampus.
When I moved back to NewEngland, I moved to Boston,
Massachusetts, and that's whereI became more involved in

(03:22):
political organizing.
I went to a number of differentleft organization meetings
before kind of settling into DSAand into tenant organizing.
When I originally joined DSA, Iwasn't very active.
But once I started taking on aleadership role in the housing
working group, I became muchmore invested in the work.

(03:44):
And I've been in DSA for aboutthree years now.
And I would say that's been thevast majority of my radicalizing
and socialist journey.
Thanks.
Sebastian?

SPEAKER_04 (03:56):
Well, I'm originally from Colombia, Bogota, Colombia.
And so I, you know, socialism,communism, anything like that
was scary, you know, but um Iwas always kind of a left
liberal, um, you know, excitedwhen Obama got elected.
And then it was like, well, butwhat about Guantanamo, you know,

(04:18):
and on and on.
Yeah.
And then um, you know, went toOccupy for my fall break.
Um, I was studying economicsbecause I wanted to do economic
development, but I was kind ofrealizing like economic
development is just for thepeople that support the US
Empire, you know?
And so um, yeah, I was likereally into the whole like money

(04:40):
and politics thing.
Lawrence Lessig, if anybodyknows who that is.

SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
Oh my god.
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (04:45):
He's like a whole separate giant nerd about that.

SPEAKER_02 (04:49):
That's so funny.
I have I have stories, not abouthim in particular, but about his
work.
But yes, please go on.

SPEAKER_04 (04:56):
Heck yes, heck yes.
Well, um, yeah, it wasn't until2016 that, you know, uh uh
Bernie was just like, yeah, whohas the money to put it into the
politics, you know?
And it's like, oh, rich people,you know, the 1%, all the, you
know, all the stuff that we'retalking about in Occupy.

(05:16):
And so um around 2018, I heardabout like a DSA meeting.
And so I went as my friend's,you know, emotional support
extrovert, um, and then gotinvolved, helped do some
fundraising, and dropped off fora few years, then went, you
know, super deep into the Berniecampaign, texting while at work

(05:39):
and all this stuff, helping withthe Spanish texting um program.
And then, yeah, eventually justcame back to DSA trying to
revive my branch, which had kindof fallen apart in 2021.

SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So you are someone who was likepart of the through line between
Occupy, the financial crisis,Obama, and Bernie.
Because a lot of people, as youmight imagine, got like Bernie,
Bernie pilled.
Um, but the actual connection,like not a lot of people

(06:15):
necessarily were like around forall of that.
For me, the uh the Obama yearswere also like the first time I
had ever like phone banked, butI w I was never really very like
politicized.
It was kind of like this seemslike a good idea and it seems
historical.
Um, but yeah, like it's kind ofinteresting how, well,

(06:36):
organizing is really the thingthat ends up being the spark for
you too, Kelly, right?
Where it's like you kind ofencounter these ideas, and then
once you actually are on theground like doing these things
is when it starts to stick more.
That that's happened, thathappened for me too.
For you guys, like, you know,how did you find yourself drawn

(06:57):
into tenant organizing inparticular?
And we'll talk also about likethe sort of deeper questions
about the theory of change thatanimates it and stuff, but just
kind of to continue the elevatorspeech about socialism, like how
did you end up focusing on thisparticular um area?
Sebastian, maybe you could gofirst this time.

SPEAKER_04 (07:17):
Um yeah, well, I mean, you know, with the Bernie
campaign, I knocked so manydoors.
Um, and if anybody's doneelectoral canvassing, you know
the reception that you get atthe door.
Um and then what reception isthat, Sebastian?

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
Fully embraced, cup of tea?

SPEAKER_04 (07:39):
Well, especially in North Carolina, um, you know, uh
the triangle is a little moreprogressive, but but so you
know, it like I had thatexperience, and then in 2021,
I'd seen uh a friend from theBernie campaign was doing
canvassing with Denver DSAaround the eviction moratorium,

(08:00):
um, because a lot of landlordswere uh uh trying to evict
tenants who couldn't pay, eventhough there was a moratorium,
hoping they didn't know about itand that they would just leave
on their own.
Um and so, you know, it was likeJanuary of 2021.
It was like a friend of minefrom the Bernie campaign and

(08:21):
another person who had been amember of the branch before, uh
specifically in Raleigh, NorthCarolina, and we were just like,
what if we do that?
You know, we just go to thecourthouse, we get all the
evictions, we figure out theapartment complexes, and we just
like knock every door in thatapartment complex and tell
everybody, hey, you have theserights.

(08:42):
Um, you know, and so we juststarted doing that, that allowed
us to kind of start to pulltogether a branch with like a
specific, you know, tangibleproject.
And then the people at the doorswere like thrilled to see us,
you know, even if they weren'tgoing through it, they were
always just like, oh, I know myfriend, my cousin, like whoever,

(09:04):
I need to tell them about this.
And so um, unfortunately, Ididn't know anything about
organizing at the time.
So I didn't get like people'scontact information and stuff
like that.
We eventually started doingthat, but um, you know,
fortunately, um, some members ofDSA in Chapel Hill were doing uh

(09:25):
actual tenant union organizingthanks to an IWW member who had
been running trainings there.
Um, and so those of us inRaleigh kind of got interested
in that.
And then when the evictionmoratorium ended, um,
unfortunately, and there Ishould, you know, say a lot of
thanks to Corey Bush who pushedto keep it going at the time.

(09:49):
Um, but you know, when it ended,we just were like, all right,
tenant unions are the way to go.
Um, and actually that summer Ihad been uh basically forced out
of my house because of moldproblems.
And if I'd known about tenantunions and tenant organizing, I
think I could have pushed backon it, you know, and so like

(10:09):
kind of it kind of hit at a lotof you know, a lot of different
things were happening at thattime that just like made it
really stick with me.
And um, you know, after that itwas just yeah, tenant organizing
all day, every day.

SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
Thanks for that.
I have uh, you know, somethingyou just said at the end of what
you just described.
Also COVID was one of thosethings that kind of uncovered so
many things, right?
So uncovered so many like youknow, denigrated and awful
workplace conditions and other,you know, kind of social safety

(10:45):
net things that frayed or hadbeen fraying for a long time.
Housing was one of them too.
And I uh the housing activitythat happened in my chapter at
the time also kind of had itshigh point at that time with the
eviction moratorium and like theexploitation that was going on,
but then it attracted otherpeople who were experiencing

(11:06):
other issues as well.
What about you, Kelly?
It sounds like your trajectorywas kind of like you were part
of some other organizing andthen you moved to another place
and got really deep into tenantorganizing.

SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
So yeah, I think like you had mentioned earlier
um about how people getradicalized in the struggle.
I think I that's really truethat people learn the most when
they're involved and engaged init.
I read a lot of theory, I loveto read a lot of books.
Um I'm applying for master's orfor PhD programs now, so I
consider myself to be anacademic.
But what's been most helpful forme or most um enlightening, I

(11:41):
guess, is the actual on thegrounds organizing.
Um, I think like Sebastian wastalking about, housing is
personal to me.
I've also had some housinginsecurity and some just as like
a you know poor person andworking class person, um, just
struggled with the cost ofliving and the rising rents.

(12:02):
When I lived out in Arizona andwas there for grad school, I
remember reading um Evicted byMatthew Desmond, which catalogs
the um housing crisis throughoutthe US.
And that was a very disdepressing read for me.
It's done through like asociology standpoint.
When I moved to Boston, Istarted reading Abolish Rent,
and that was much moreempowering.

(12:23):
Evicted, you know, talked aboutthe scope of the issue and how
housing is so critical for oursurvival, how eviction causes
PTSD, how millions of Americansare put out on the street.
I that book gave me a lot ofanxiety because I recognized
myself and my situation and alot of the people that Matthew
Desmond was interviewing.
Um, but then reading AbolishedRent and what tenants can do

(12:46):
when they organize was reallyencouraging to me and uh
motivating because I started tothink that it doesn't have to be
like this.
Like I don't have to be afraidof losing my housing.
And I think because I didn't getinvolved in DSA through an
electoral campaign, myexperience in DSA has always
been tenant and housingorganizing.
That's just always been myorientation to DSA and to

(13:09):
political organizing, is thathousing is a you know a critical
and human right.
It's foundational for us toexist.

SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
So yeah, I mean, we're gonna talk a bit about
that particular kind of centralnode of what it means to be
working class, what it means tobe um alive, really, like, and
like what it means to havesomething like housing as a
human right.
Um but also I think thatsomething people might want to

(13:39):
know is what are some of thesimilarities and differences
between like tenant organizingand other kinds of organizing.
Um, Sebastian, you justmentioned like kind of maybe
maybe you suggested more thanactually explicitly said, like
how refreshing it was toactually do tenant organizing
after knocking doors kind of inthis necessary but very kind of

(14:00):
stayed way to get people tovote.
Um, so the distinction betweenmaybe speaking to people about
their particular material issuesand talking about organizing
around them with peopleexperiencing the same thing is
different than electoralorganizing because electoral
organizing is asking people tobelieve in kind of more like a
broader vision.

(14:21):
Yes, candidates often championcertain kinds of things.
That's how they distinguishthemselves, or that's also how
they speak to their own localconstituencies, but it's almost
never gonna be sort of singular,right?
It's almost never gonna bearound a single thing because
you know who can get elected onthat?
I don't know, maybe we'll try.
Who knows?
But it is it is very different,right?

(14:42):
Because you are going also tolike specific places that you
feel can be fruitful areas oforganizing.
It's not just like a canvas of afull place, it's like, okay,
like identifying theseparticular places.
So what is the theory of changethat animates this particular

(15:02):
kind of organizing?
At least, you know, in yourview, because I think there's
also maybe a range of responsesto that kind of question.
Um, so yeah, Kelly, for you,like what do you think is the
motivating factor?
You mentioned how, again,refreshed you felt reading
something that's like thecollective power of tenants can

(15:23):
actually do things that peopleare told is impossible, right?
Or like people are told is like,you know, inevitably just a
result of um, you know, thecapitalist system.
So yeah, please expound.
Like, you know, what is the thetheory of change that you that
made you want to believe in thisis something that is like a
great focus for you.

SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Yeah, I think you touched on it a little bit with
how different like electoral isto housing or tenant organizing.
I think one of the maindifferences is that in
electoral, you know, you'rebacking up a candidate and
hoping that they'll come andhelp you or that they'll, you
know, be good on their campaignpromises.
But with housing, it's sofundamental to your existence.

(16:04):
And I was talking to one of thepublic housing tenants that I've
been organizing with for thepast several months now.
Um, and I told her, I was like,your landlord wants an easy
paycheck.
These people just want an easypaycheck.
They're exploiting you for thismoney.

SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
But you have income is what they call it.

SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
What?

SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Passive income.

SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
Yes, housing providers.
But I was like, these landlordsand these corporations, they
just want an easy paycheck, butwe need the house to live.
So if the fight's gonna getugly, we're fighting for life or
death, and they're fightingbecause they want passive
income.
Um, and I think that is a bigdifference with tenant
organizing and what really canmotivate people to take on

(16:44):
militant action.
We see this across the countryin a lot of tenant groups.
Um, and I think as Sebastiantalked about earlier with
eviction defense campaigns, wealso have one in Boston, and
that has been really um, it'shelped our you know organization
grow and our working group growbecause that is a moment where
people are up against the walland they don't have a lot of

(17:06):
options.
They can't afford to wait aroundfor the next election cycle or
for the state to get involved.
They have to do something now,and that is what brings them to
talking to their neighbors andto taking these risks together
in solidarity.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:21):
Yeah.
I mean, I think for for me, itwas um a little bit like sort of
instinctually, you know, I I sawhow like just 40% of people,
give or take, don't vote, youknow, um, and how like yeah,
just everybody is is sodepoliticized, right?

(17:43):
Like uh uh uh people don'treally see how they themselves
right, like uh uh uh how theycan make the change themselves,
right?
Even sometimes with voting,right?
If it's voting where, oh, I'mgonna pick this person and this
person's gonna solve the problemfor me, that's still pretty
depoliticized, right?
Like that's still pretty like,oh, I'm just like choosing and

(18:06):
then I'm you know leaving.
And so um, you know, with tenantorganizing, you're you're
helping people realize their ownpower, right?
And you're you're helping peoplekind of like see that um even
though my landlord has like tonsand tons of money, he's still

(18:26):
leveraged up to his guilds,right?
And so it's it it doesn't takethat many of us to stop paying
for him to be the one introuble.
And so really what we're doingis we're paying for him to have
a good life.
Like we're not like uh he's notdoing something for us out of
the kindness of his heart.
And so um, you know, to me, liketenant organizing, you know, one

(18:51):
addresses kind of that thatissue of like helping people
realize their own personal likepower.
Um, but then also the the thedemographics that that it
addresses are just so differentfrom electoral and labor
organizing.
Um, at least for us.

SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
I could ask you about the labor part because it
sounds like there's a a sort ofchiming with what a lot of um
organizers, especially withinDSA, but even people who are not
identified socialists, like whythey're involved in union
organizing, because it empowersworkers to find their own
individual as well as collectivepower.

(19:29):
So maybe you could talk a littlebit more about what the
differences between because wecan, you know, electoral also is
kind of classically in its own.
We have we have elections, wehave can uh candidates, and it's
like very much what most peoplethink of when they think of
politics, right?
But you know, labor also is nowbecoming more politicized, but

(19:54):
tenant organizing might not havethe same um attention drawn into
it, despite the fact that wealso are facing a housing crisis
on many fronts, uh, rent, youknow, um development, that kind
of thing.
So, yeah, please explain what'sthe difference between tenant
organizing and labor organizing,and also maybe what are like

(20:16):
some similarities that you thinkare like fruitful to maybe talk
about.

SPEAKER_04 (20:22):
I mean, the the similarities are so many, you
know.
Uh we really owe a lot to labororganizing and labor organizers.
We've gone through, you know,I've gone through so many labor
organizing trainings, uh,organizing for power and ewok
and you know, um, that have beenvery helpful to me in the

(20:43):
organizing, you know, that I'vebeen doing.
Um, at the same time, you know,I would say a the really, really
big one um is in labor, there'sa big emphasis on organic
leaders uh and finding theorganic leaders, um, which is a
challenge for us because at workyou can you can you know you're

(21:03):
performing tasks together,you're demonstrating competency,
you are right, like uh creatingthe ability to like talk to each
other, even if you speakdifferent languages, at the very
least, you develop enough tolike uh uh uh do the work that
needs to be done, and then fromthere you can, you know, go
forward.
Whereas when you're neighbors,like you might not know each

(21:27):
other at all, and you've livednext to each other for years,
right?
You just sort of wave and youkeep it moving.
Um, and so it's very rare tofind a um, you know, just like a
natural leader who alreadyknows, right?
Like everybody in the apartmentcomplex.
Sometimes, you know, um, it canhappen with parents, parents who

(21:50):
like take their kids to the samelocal park or like pet owners,
dogs that go to the same, youknow, dog park.

SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
But but the dogs become the organic leader?
Is that what you're saying?
Oh my god, chakra.

SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
They also vote.
They also get a vote.

SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
Don't tell the Trump administration that there's
voter fraud going on wherepeople are registering their
dogs to vote.

SPEAKER_04 (22:13):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Sorry, sorry.
Come on.
No, I just couldn't, I couldn'tresist.

SPEAKER_04 (22:22):
Um it's but but so it's just like it's just tough.
It's tough to find those organicleaders.
And so um there's I think I feelthat there's like more of a need
for like uh um leadershipdevelopment and and and that
that sort of thing.
Um I would also say that atleast in North Carolina, where
we don't have a lot of like uhum protections for tenants and

(22:46):
we don't have a lot of um uhhistory of of labor or tenant
unions, um it's it's we've foundthat there a lot of times it's
people that live in subsidizedhousing who quite literally
could not afford to live in thecity anywhere else other than

(23:09):
where they live, who are themost uh likely to get involved
and to like uh um you know andto organize.
And so I guess I would say thatlike the demographics are also
pretty different in terms oflike um you have these two big
you know swaths of like retiredfolks and people on like a fixed
income.

(23:29):
Um, and then also uh quitepeople who are quite young who
are living in like veryprecarious situations as they
you know leave their home andlike try and like face the the
the world.
Often, you know, um LGBTQ plusfolks who maybe their family is
not supportive, right?

(23:50):
Um, especially like uh yeah, whowho who may be having that to
deal with that sort ofsituation.
Uh, those are kind of like, Iguess, you know, uh the younger
folks are you know unionizing inlabor and in tenant stuff, but
like for the older folks who areretired and that kind of thing,
I think this is a a way to reachum people in those situations

(24:10):
that that we wouldn't normallywith like labor organizing.
Um I guess, yeah, those are someof the some of the differences I
see.

unknown (24:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Yeah, I mean, they there's a reason why they say
class struggle is life or death.
We see the same thing in Bostontoo.
It's people that don't haveanywhere else to go that that
have to stay and fight.
I think a lot of times when yourun into issues in the
workplace, um the advice is toget a better job.
But when you run into issueswith your housing, it's a little
bit different.

(24:39):
There's not as many options.
I think um a big difference withlabor and housing and tenant
organizing is that there is kindof a guidance or like kind of a
path for labor organizing.
There's, you know, the nationallabor boards and different
established unions.
There's kind of a template forlabor organizers to follow, and

(25:00):
there is a precedent and somekind of, you know, federal
protection around labororganizing.
There's much less of that withhousing.
And again, I think that peoplefeel a little less afraid to
lose their job, as much as thatcan be devastating for people.
There are systems likeunemployment, um, you know,
people are able to find a newjob, but losing one's housing

(25:23):
and facing an eviction can bereally devastating.
So, some of the things that wedo with tenant organizing is one
of the reasons why that evictiondefense campaign is so
important, is that's a piece ofpolitical education.
Eviction is the main way thatlandlords will retaliate against
tenant organizers.
So if tenant organizers know howto fight back against an
eviction, they can continue toescalate and take on more

(25:44):
militant action.
So I think with tenantorganizing, there needs to be a
lot more of this mutual aid andinfrastructure built out,
especially as we're gettingpeople to develop a level of
trust with each other.
Sebastian touched upon how youmight not even know your
neighbors.
I've lived in places where Inever saw my neighbors.
We had different schedules, um,we've never really passed each

(26:05):
other in the hallways.
So, and so you don't always getthose organic leaderships, which
is what DSA's role is, isbringing this type of tenant
organizing, these e-talktrainings into that space and
getting the tenants together,um, having these types of social
events, getting people to talkabout these issues so that they
can realize that they're notalone in these issues, that

(26:26):
their neighbors are facing thesame issues, and that there is a
way forward if they worktogether.

SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
Yeah, what you were just both talking about
regarding knowing yourneighbors, I think that the
knowing your neighbors thing isalmost something that is often
reserved for property owners.
Because it's like, oh, well, wehave a stake in the
neighborhood.
We have a community here, andthat's really played up.
I mean, we know what the HOA is,right?

(26:53):
The ever-cursed HOA jokes that,you know, circulate around the
internet.
But renters are also precarious,right?
They're people who could beevicted, even if they've lived
in a place for a really longtime, because of course we have
all these other externalpressures like development, like
um, you know, the BlackRockmotherfuckers, you know, like

(27:13):
all of that, all of that, too,that's like creating all this
external pressure on people.
And like, yeah, like if you wereliving in a place where you
might feel like you're not sureif you're gonna be there for a
while.
I mean, not everyone istransient.
And I think that's another partof this, too, is like the sort
of classed nature of the.

SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
A lot of people are transient these days.

SPEAKER_02 (27:34):
Yes, a lot of people are, but I just mean also like
even if you're you have morehousing security than someone
else, you might also just kindof be to yourself, right?
Also, in the United States, wehave this um norm where your
house, even if it's not yours,right, even if you're paying a
landlord, you have a right tothe privacy of your own home.

(27:55):
And I think that a lot of peoplemight be socialized into
thinking, oh, well, I don'treally want a person to talk to
me and invade my privacy, so I'mnot gonna do it to them.
And so it might also be thiskind of like generalized
atomization that people have ina culture of like sort of
capital private property byproxy, right?

(28:17):
It's like you're paying thelandlord a fee, an exorbitant
fee, to be able to try to enjoysome of that privacy, you know,
and it's like a very, you know,sort of immiserated privacy in
reality.

SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (28:32):
I mean, so many.
Uh um, there's a a person thatI'm working with right now who
is convinced that you know,maintenance is coming into his
apartment while he's not thereand that other tenants are in on
it.
And it's just like this istough.
Like, how how to build thattrust so that eventually you

(28:53):
feel like it's you and yourneighbors against the landlord,
you know?
Uh um, it's it's it's tricky.

SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Yeah, I mean it's oh sorry, go ahead, Kelly.

SPEAKER_00 (29:04):
I was gonna say, I think people it's sometimes with
tenant organizing, it'sdifficult because people will
get upset at their neighbors orthe people around them.
It's hard to be angry at asystem.
It's much easier to be angry ata person that's in front of you.
And a lot of times theselandlords are hiding behind LLCs
or corporations or propertymanagement.
So they're never face to face.
You can never really yell atthem, but you could yell at your

(29:26):
neighbor or something.
Um, they take on thatrepresentation of the system's
oppression.

SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
Yeah, which is also very similar in the workplace.
That's another similarity forlabor.
Of course, you know, capitaltends to divide people, right?
That's how it's, you know,divide and conquer.
And it makes sense that it wouldhappen everywhere.
There's a commodity to beexploited, right?
Um, whether it's labor, whetherit's someone's actual actual

(29:52):
money and their desperation tostay, have some measure of
security, which in the UnitedStates we associate strongly
with the ability to exclude,right?
Like this idea that privateproperty attaches itself to the
ability to be left alone.
And then it's just painful, Ithink, sometimes to realize
like, as long as you're underthe thumb of capital and

(30:15):
landlords, you will never bereally left alone, right?
Um, this is like a big part ofthe ruling class kind of
structure that we're we're undercurrently, is there are people
who own, you know, there arepeople who actually have like an
unfettered right to exclude,including right to exclude their
tenants, should they choose,right?

(30:36):
Um, and all of the differentways that tenant landlord law
works on municipal, state,federal, even though it's not
really federal levels, but likethese agencies, it's just a
patchwork, right?
Like there's so there's it'salmost like whack-a-mole, like
every single, every single thinglike kind of cancels each other
out in like all of thesedifferent ways.

(30:57):
But the legislative path is alsosomething that people will often
kind of like go for as a way tomitigate some of these issues.
So I want to talk to you guysabout like how that fits into
tenant organizing, because thesethings like rent control, zoning
for housing, bans on Airbnb,these things kind of come up in
all of these different ways.
And they're not uniform, right?

(31:20):
Um, they're they kind of likeappear in um, you know, on the
basis of political conditionsthat aren't you know necessarily
predictable, but people do umengage in those campaigns
oftentimes um not as analternative to tenant
organizing, but in the absenceof tenant organizing.
Um, and so I'm wondering, youknow, in your experience and
kind of in your analysis of howthis theory of change kind of

(31:44):
you know coalesces, are thesekinds of campaigns totally
distinct from tenant organizing?
Um, do they kind of fit to it?
Is there a future where theycould fit?
Um, or you know, what's yourview on like some of these other
efforts that that arealternatives to or happen
alongside um maybe moregrassroots organizing that

(32:05):
you've been describing?

SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
Yeah, I if I could uh respond.

SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Yeah, Kelly, go ahead.
Glad you're so eager to answer.

SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
Um I think something that you you brought up too
about how um, you know,homeownership versus renting, a
lot of why we're not seeing anyprotections around tenants is
that it is really seen as just atemporary living situation.
The end goal for a lot of peopleis to eventually own a home.
You know, we think about thenuclear family type model that's
always championed in the US.

(32:35):
And that's not really the goalof us as socialists.
So it's not about, you know,building up towards home
ownership.
It's about building up towardsthis form of social housing that
we talk about in the HousingJustice Commission.
But to your question about theselegislative pieces, they do tie,
in my opinion.
They tie into the tenantorganizing.
A lot of what my role as thehousing working group co-chair

(32:57):
was was about using those aspolitical education pieces,
around getting people to seethat this is not a system that
needs to be continued, that it'snot a system that should exist.
So we did campaigns aroundtenant-paid broker fees.
That that's a thing in Boston,was a thing in Boston, um, that
landlords could charge thetenants for broker service that

(33:19):
the landlord used.
That was an easy low-liftpressure campaign that we helped
on.
And even though you know somepeople will say that those types
of measures are more reformist,it's all about getting people to
continue that conversation ofyes, it's messed up that your
landlord is charging you for aservice they use.

(33:40):
And it's messed up that yourlandlord's charging you rent at
all.
So everything is a step buildingup towards this form of social
housing.
You know, we say housing is ahuman right, and that's true,
but that's a slogan.
How do we get there?
And so we need tenantorganizing, and then we need
tenant protections and theselegislative pieces to change the

(34:01):
conversation around what housingactually looks like.

SPEAKER_04 (34:04):
Yeah, the way the way that I think about it is
sort of like um, you know, usingthe Pro Act as an example, like,
you know, you wouldn'tnecessarily say that the Pro Act
is labor organizing.
I guess maybe, you know, somefolks would, but like if you're
doing it inside of your union,maybe, but if you're sort of
like generally uh um, you know,getting people to sign off.

SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
It's a basic it's basically an electoral campaign,
right?

SPEAKER_04 (34:30):
You know, yeah, yeah.
Like electoral legislative, andbut it affects labor, right?
Like it makes it easier toorganize.
And so kind of how I think aboutit is like um there are a good
example in South Carolina, um,they recently passed a law to
um, I believe you're if you areevicted, um, the eviction can

(34:55):
only stay on your record up toseven years.
Um which, you know, for tenantorganizing, I mean seven years
is still like entirely.
Um but it used to be permanent,right?
And and I think in NorthCarolina it it still is.
Um there's some caveats thatare.

(35:21):
Exactly.
And so and so these are theseare legislative changes that
then make it so when you'rehaving conversations about like,
should we take this action andall that stuff, like I mean,
you're never gonna say, like,oh, don't worry, it's only gonna
be seven, it's only gonna be onyour record for seven years if
you get eviction.
You know, but like it'ssomething that um people are

(35:44):
gonna put into their likedecision-making, you know,
process, right?
And people are gonna say, like,okay, like I have this fallback,
or you know, I don't, you know,like, and so, and so I think um
something that was interesting.
I went to this talk by theMadrid Tenants Union um uh and
the Catalan Tenants Union, andthey talked about how the

(36:07):
legislative wins came out oflike, you know, tenant fights.
And so I think that that's kindof maybe how we need to think
about it, and how it wouldencourage DSA chapters to like
uh approach this is likethinking about what helps your
tenant union grow.
Like what are like the changesthat would make it easier for

(36:29):
tenants to fight.
Um, because I think if we canmake those changes, then then
maybe those really are likenon-reformist reforms, right?
Um and so, and so you know, I'mnot opposed to them.
I think, you know, uh it can bea good way to cohere like a
housing justice working groupand like a chapter or something
like that.

(36:50):
But I do think that like theredoes come a point where um
tenants need to be able to likefight for themselves.
And and I think that that canthat should happen through like,
you know, autonomous tenantunions that can like um really
uh uh uh take that sort ofmilitant action with, you know,
ideally the support of theirtheir local DSA chapter.

SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Okay, and there's a lot there because one of the
things that I noticed yousqueezed in there was this idea
that a tenant union um that isable to kind of maybe have a
little bit of extra extrathought in their head, besides
just like survival, couldpotentially be um a site, an or

(37:33):
an organizing site unto itselfwhere people can decide what
kind of politicization they wantto undertake.
And it to me that sounds a lotlike what a rank and file
strategy within labor might tryto kind of lean on, is like if
you have a militant union, thenthe militant union and the

(37:54):
leadership that comes out ofthat could help to organize
campaigns that actually doattack um injustice in the halls
of power rather than just doingkind of only workplace-bounded
um kinds of organizing.
That might that was how I readit, and maybe you guys can talk,

(38:17):
tell me whether I'm all wet ornot, but that just really rang
true, especially because I usedto live in Massachusetts, uh
Kelly, and um I know a lot ofpeople involved in the
Massachusetts TeachersAssociation and especially EDU,
Educators for a DemocraticUnion.
And leadership within um MTA hasbeen kind of the rank and file

(38:38):
militant leadership.
And recently they have beenstarting to generate their own
statewide campaigns that havebeen um agitational, really.
I mean, they've been bothagitational and they've also um,
you know, sort of caused apoliticization around labor and
around labor issues that uhpeople had previously kind of

(39:01):
siloed off as like, oh, that'sjust union stuff.
Like, we don't need to likeworry about that too much.

SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
Yeah, I mean, we've had conversations around this in
the Housing Justice Commissionabout how we can get tenant
unions to look beyond buildinglevel issues and start thinking
about you know this questionaround housing and how we can
change the way housing's viewed.
We don't like housing shouldn'tbe on the speculative market, it
shouldn't be a vehicle forinvestment.
Same thing with labor, gettingthem to look beyond workplace

(39:29):
issues to actually changing thesystem.

SPEAKER_04 (39:34):
Yeah, I mean, uh um I think maybe because the the
tenant movement is so embryonicright now, we've kind of
defaulted to the like rank andfile strategy, right?
Of like, well, we're just gonnahave to go and build these, you
know, tenant unions um so thatthey can eventually take those
sorts of uh of actions.

(39:56):
And um, I think there's beensome pretty now like certain
unions have gotten to a size oflike um you know, Los Angeles
tenants union uh arguing for aneviction moratorium during the
Ice Rates there because so manypeople were being displaced
because they couldn't go towork, you know.

(40:18):
Um like uh uh and like that.
There's I think examples in inmany other like situations and
you know things like that, butlike um they are now like there
are now unions that can gobeyond that sort of like yeah,
what my housing looks like andand and uh take action against

(40:39):
the state and against like stateoppression.
Um that is just very hearteningto see.

SPEAKER_02 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean it the the good old class in itself
versus class for itself, becausethe class in itself worries
about those like you know commongrievances kind of insular
insular and necessary in orderto agitate to cause people to
think about themselves as partof a broader class struggle, you
know, with those people thatthey've never even met before.

(41:07):
And like the the that kind oflike stepping stone.
And the thing is, as a forsocialists, we're also like
we're also embryonic in a lot ofways.
Like we're constantly being kindof put back on these things by
harder territory.
These kinds of organizingefforts are they're never just
local, right?
It's like the they they theytake part in a broader um

(41:31):
conception.
And even if people don't realizeit at the time, the way that
people become realized isthrough that activity, at that
that self-activity, right?
And the and the meeting ofpeople and the talking to people
about their common grievances inorder to be able to realize one
day it's like, no, I actually dobelieve housing is a human

(41:53):
right.
Like that, like that's somethingI believe in my heart.
Not it's not just a slogan,right?
And I want to like work towardsthat, you know, in some in some
way, even if it's just creatingthe best gosh darn tenant union
you possibly can, right?

SPEAKER_04 (42:09):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
Yeah.
I wanted to talk to you guysactually about the housing plank
in our new Workers Deserve Moreprogram that's been released
last week.
Um, and I'll just read it outloud and maybe we can just talk
a little bit about it.
Um, and like you just mentioned,Sebastian, about DSA chapters
being supports and um involvedin in these kinds of efforts.

(42:33):
And obviously, both of you areinvolved in the Housing Justice
Commission, your own localorganizing and and all of that
connected to DSA.
But we now have um a new programthat defines housing as a human
right.
First sentence build newpublicly owned social housing,
strictly regulate investmentproperties, establish universal

(42:55):
rent control, and guaranteeright to counsel for all
tenants.
It's very succinct, it's verybrief, but uh I'd love to hear
y'all's thoughts about it.
Um, and also kind of like howyou see organizing potentially
taking place around thesethings.

SPEAKER_04 (43:11):
I mean, just starting with like housing as a
human right, I think is like uhuh um right something that we
can all absolutely agree on.
Um and I think this takes somesteps towards that, right?
Like I feel like uh universalrent control would be very nice.
Uh it's actually illegal inNorth Carolina to have rent

(43:31):
control.

SPEAKER_00 (43:32):
It's illegal in Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
It sure is.
And uh an effort to just try toput a dent in that just failed.

SPEAKER_00 (43:39):
Um I'm aware it's very involved in that campaign.

SPEAKER_03 (43:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:45):
Go ahead, Sebastian.

SPEAKER_04 (43:47):
Well, it was it was a Democrat who passed that law
in North Carolina, you know.
Uh uh.
So we're like we're just like sofar away from you know having a
a a housing system that.
makes any sense at all.
You know, and so I think thatlike this takes a lot of like
good there it includes a lot ofgood policies um in getting us

(44:10):
towards that.
You know, I think I'm I'm alsosort of informed by like the
four principles of socialhousing that the Housing Justice
Commission passed a few yearsago, which just you know
includes like redistributionfrom landowners, democratic
control, sustainable and highquality housing, and then

(44:31):
universal access.
And so you know kind of thinkingabout these two, I'm thinking
I'm wondering about like, youknow, and obviously this is a
thing that is like ongoing,right?
It's not like a set it andforget it.
You know, something around liketenant control, tenant
democracy.

(44:51):
And just in in terms of like umyeah starting to think about
like not just the the thephysical like units of housing
themselves but also like therelationship that we have to
them could be like a thing to toinclude in the future.
But um yeah I mean I think Ithink uh uh um it's something

(45:13):
that we need to work on it'ssomething that like it's
extremely important to a lot ofpeople and I think that you know
this is like a good good startyeah I also really like that uh
we have a housing plank and theworkers deserve more and I also
like that it goes a little bitbeyond that housing is a human
right which I agree with but ismore of just a slogan so I love

(45:34):
that it expands a little bitinto what that looks like and
what we really think housingshould be.

SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
The investment properties that's something that
comes up a lot right now inBoston we're organizing around
social housing in part of ourareas is Cambridge,
Massachusetts so we're workingon a social housing campaign and
um something that we talk abouta lot is how housing when it's
used as a vehicle forinvestment, it's fundamentally
at odds with what housingactually is critical to our

(46:04):
survival.
And so as Sebastian said, youknow, how can we build policies
and how can we build a system ofhousing that transforms the
relationship we have withhousing.
I think a lot of us as workingclass and as tenants are kind of
at the whim of landlords and youknow if we're college students,
the dorms, we don't have a lotof autonomy or agency over our

(46:27):
housing if you rent, you can'tpaint the walls, you don't know
if you'll stay there for long,your housing could be taken away
from you at any moment.
So those are all things thatregardless of what the house
itself looks like, what is ourrelationship to that?
And then again, you know peoplewho are radicalized in the
struggle this is also a form ofpolitical education.

(46:48):
So when we're thinking aboutthese policies as part of this
workers deserve more platform,including the tenants in this
conversation of building outthese policies and building out
what social housing actuallylooks like how we're going to
get universal rent control andand what a right to counsel
looks like for tenants all ofthose are things that having
militant tenant unions involvedin will help make those

(47:11):
campaigns successful yeah and Ialso think that like the plank
itself is like it's justsuccinct because it's like to
make it longer you'd have tothen create like a white paper
trail.

SPEAKER_02 (47:26):
You know and we we really I I was the co-chair of
the program committee and onething that we really needed to
not do is just turn it into theum completely unusable platform
from 2021 that was 9,000 wordslong and nobody liked because it
had too much stuff in it, right?
So one thing that I'm kind ofwondering about actually is

(47:49):
another plank which is economicdemocracy establishing public
ownership of dot dot dotessential industries.
Because one of the things that Iwas recently on another uh
podcast one of the things that Ibrought up was we're not trying
to this was not this is not likea polic like a wonk policy

(48:10):
institute.
Like we're a mass politicalorganization.
So making these things prettysuccinct is important.
But also what is an essentialindustry is actually something
that needs to be decided notjust like by some guy who's
wearing a bow tie and just likehere's the list of essential
industries but how actually itfits into production and how it

(48:31):
fits into people's materialneeds, right?
An essential industry is what isit right now that's being
commodified that needs to betaken out of the market in order
for people to be able to livehousing is one of them
definitely housing and andinvestment properties is the the
the sort of completecommodification and like you

(48:52):
said before Kelly it's like itkind of stands in complete
opposition to the purpose ofhousing which is to house people
because they need housing tolive right so to the extent that
we're talking here about a kindof broader scope like what do
you guys think about that not tosay like oh well we don't need
it in this because we have itover here but I just like kind

(49:13):
of triggered me thinking aboutthat because socialists we kind
of understand that the things weneed to live must not be in the
market right but capital wantsus to think oh well it's okay if
it's in the market as long asthe price point is right and as
long as you know people are ableto aspire to potentially like

(49:36):
owning something right housing Ithink we can we can agree even
if you're listening to this andmaybe you're not a socialist or
you're you're just sitting heregnashing your teeth maybe you're
a landlord I don't know like iflandlords are listening you'll
learn something here but but Igotta keep in reality like right
now housing is one of thoseessential needed things that has

(50:01):
been so commodified even ifpeople are not you know we're
we're not talking here aboutlike the massive BlackRock or
like these or the Kushners orany of these groups but it is
just like considered now to be aa commodity right and and so
much of this is about takinghousing out of um the market in

(50:22):
order to turn them into toinvestment properties and flip
them.
But it's also about hoardingright and it's and it's about
like you know kind of this likealmost like accumulation.
It's just like how much housingdoes anyone really even need and
so I guess maybe I'd like tohear what you're saying because
I'm a little I'm wandering alittle bit here but like this

(50:44):
kind of idea that like housingbeing an essential industry and
being democratized such that itactually is like solidly within
public ownership having thesetenant unions being able to
participate and like how to makethat come about I don't know I
mean thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 (51:00):
Yeah I mean I think that having the platform be
succinct is very helpful becauseit gives people room to explore
like how's this you know workersdeserve more plank is really
helpful to lay the foundationand then different working
groups and different tenantunions can build out these
campaigns using this as afoundation.

(51:21):
But going back to that essentialindustries housing is obviously
something that is essential tous as the working class.
And so having tenant unionsinvolved in this site and having
tenants involved because theseare the people that need the
housing to live a landlord thatowns you know a million units
and is just hoarding them tocontinue driving up rent prices
doesn't need the unit to live.

(51:41):
So they're not going to bemaking these decisions around
what housing should look likewhat our relationship to housing
should look like under the basisthat it's a human right.
They're looking at it under thebasis that this is something
that can make them money.
And I think a lot of times whenyou know under this current
system of capitalism peopleaspire to get into the position

(52:02):
of the oppressor rather than youknow to achieve liberation for
themselves and for theircommunity.

SPEAKER_04 (52:08):
So people see if they're tenants, they believe
that the pathway forward is tobecome a homeowner or eventually
become a landlord if if they arean exploited worker their path
to you know stability is tobecome a business owner whereas
we as socialists we're lookingfor liberation and not to take
the place of the oppressorsthere's there's a there's a

(52:31):
horrific like confluence uh uharound that right now with
landlord influencers oh are youtalking about people who get on
Instagram and whine about howthey try so hard and the the uh
the implementers on Instagramit's about it's about no it's a

(52:53):
it's about how like you too canbecome like you too can make
passive income by buy buyinglike distressed you know assets
and da da da da da and so likeyou buy this in section eight
you have like a high you havelike a steady income you don't
you know do anything and so it'sjust free cash and it's just

(53:14):
it's like it's really they'reawful they're awful uh um it's
yeah but but so part of it isit's kind of like in the same
vein as crypto or any other kindof hack you know that people
feel so desperate honestly thatthey're looking for any way to
sort of hack because the hack isthe way that you get around the

(53:38):
actual material constraintsright and it's all snake oil
right it's all it's all kind oflike no the reason why you were
able to and of course you alwayssee these articles too the kind
of highbrow version of this toois like the New York Times
articles where it's just likethey were able to buy an
apartment on the upper west sideon uh two nonprofit incomes or

(53:58):
something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (53:58):
And then like about three paragraphs in you find out
that they just inherited like amillion dollars from their dead
uncle or something like that.
Yeah so I love those yeah I meanI think that going back to what
you were saying Kelly about justthe um the sort of hierarchical
like people feeling like gettingout of it requires them to

(54:22):
become the oppressor um and notseeing their way out through
collective action is something Ithink that obviously the
socialist in this the socialistin this room and also the sort
socialist movement is trying tochange through the activities of
organizing, right?

(54:42):
Like they're trying to likepersuade people to our political
positions through differenttools such as workers deserve
more such as you know theelecteds like being um you know
imperfect but nonetheless we'restuck with them tribunes for the
movement.
But then also this actualorganizing that we're doing in
labor in tenant tenancy um andin other areas too immigration

(55:07):
um you know various other areasDSA big tent lots and lots of
different things going on whichis why workers has a lot of
planks you know um and the theway that I see it too is that
like our own vision of realityis it's based on what we

(55:28):
understand to be like thematerial needs of human beings,
right?
But we look at that and this isnot a virtuous thing this is not
necessarily a moral thing it'sjust a material analysis we look
at that as how we are able tohelp people understand their
position in in the world rightand the oppressed oppressor
thing also is like well if thoseare the only two choices of

(55:51):
course I don't want to be theoppressed I want to be the
oppressor we have to actuallyshow people no this is not
permanent because capitalism wasmade by people like it's made
it's and so we can actually rewe can do other things as people
besides just sit here and say,well I guess we're stuck you
know either in the oppressed orthe oppressor.
We obviously want to get rid ofthose two categories altogether.

(56:15):
Yeah the socialist agenda isabout imagining a better world
and making that possible yeahand imagining a better world
that isn't actually that fardifferent from the one that we
would live in if we got to likeactually be free of these kinds
of constraints.
Another thing not to you knowoverly focus on the program but

(56:35):
another thing that's beenhappening over the last week
since we released it is a lot oflike right wing outrage machine
up over around it and they'vethey focused on a a bunch of
stuff.
They focused on me they focusedon abolishing the Senate but
they've also focused a lot onthe beginning of the program
which is a clearly a fiction inorder to get people to think

(56:59):
what would it be like to have aday off in a future without
capitalism right it's it'sclearly meant to take people out
of reality and have them imaginesomething different.
But one of the things that istalked about in here is um is
housing because it's like fooyou know um you don't pay a

(57:19):
mortgage or have a landlordbecause comfortable housing is a
human right and then we don'tknow what in the future it'll
look like to have housing inthis thing.
We just know that there's notgoing to be capitalism.
So there's not going to be amortgage and there's not going
to be a landlord so we know thatthose things those two things

(57:40):
don't exist right um and thenalso together.
Yeah we're figuring out togetherso that's why the platform is
more succinct now as a resultyeah and and one of the things
too is that like can you imaginea world where you don't have to
worry about paying rent at theend of the month that you can
just live in your house you knowyou can live with comfortable

(58:02):
housing it's like actuallysomething that I think a lot of
people wouldn't think of ontheir own right like you know
because having to pay for whereyou live in this very um obvious
way where it's like yeah there'sa landlord and I have to pay him
every month in order for me notto be kicked out.
And what tenant organizing doesis it helps people imagine like

(58:23):
what would be like if youdisrupted that like kind of
normalization.

SPEAKER_04 (58:31):
And and you know it's even because I feel like we
do you know in a way we do thinkabout it right like I rent I've
been here for like a a number ofyears uh the landlord is like
not you know super around likeI'm I might be able to stay here
for a while but I don't think Ican start beekeeping you know

(58:54):
because I'm pretty sure that atsome point I'm gonna have to
move but I would love to youknow like I see I go to this
like festival where like everyyear there's like a beekeeper
there and I'm just like this isso awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
Oh my God.

SPEAKER_04 (59:07):
Today we learned that Sebastian is a secret beef
if I if I didn't have to youknow if I didn't have to pay
rent if I knew that I would beable to stay here.
And so it's just like like wethink about these things on a
regular basis but nobody or orvery rarely does somebody come
by and ask us that.
You know and so I think thatthat is kind of the process of

(59:28):
like the tenant organizing isjust like what would you do if
you didn't have to pay rent tobe able to stay here you know
and so like I guess I'm thinkingabout the very concrete way in
which it like pulls thosethoughts out of us and allows us
to like say them out loud and toimagine them because it's just
like it would be awesome youknow and and one of the things

(59:48):
that we actually often see in inapartments is people will bring
up like oh it would be great tohave a community garden you know
like uh it's like more oftenthan not people uh bring that up
and so like yeah uh uh um we Ifeel like we are regularly
thinking about what it would belike and I love that part I love

(01:00:09):
the you know when I was readingthrough it I was like this is so
great um but uh just gotta justgotta get more people thinking
about it you know for sure andpeople feeling like they can
take some kind of action to getthem closer to that too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:25):
Sorry go ahead Kelly oh I mean it's like with the
whole apartment renting theinternet is like you're paying
to live there and you stilldon't have complete agency over
it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:36):
Yeah and a lot of times too like you get these
leases that actually have a tonof unenforceable stuff in there
but they're because it's handedto you and because you signed it
it's given the impression likeoh yeah I I'm not allowed to
wear shoes inside of my ownhouse.
Like that that actually came upI've I've even though housing

(01:00:56):
isn't my main area of organizingum I've taught like
undergraduate kind of like legaltheory legal like social theory
that kind of stuff and talkedabout leases because there's
also this like sense of like ohlike everything in a lease like
if you break that rule thenyou're gonna get in trouble.
And it's like really you reallythink that you're not allowed to

(01:01:19):
play a wind instrument in yourown apartment?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:22):
So like this is also one of those things where it's
like what do people actuallythink not just is enforceable
but what like power do peoplejust kind of think landlords
have and like what would it meanto actually confront that and
take that back in like amaterial substantial way.
I think there's like a reallysomething that yeah like you
said Sebastian people mightthink oh I really wish I could

(01:01:44):
be keep but a lot of timespeople are just like I guess
that's my life you know oh I getI'm not allowed to be a
beekeeper.
What what what would it be likeif everyone who wanted to be a
beekeeper kept bees I feel likethat would just be net benefit
for all of society.
And we'd be getting stung a lotmore probably great for the
flowers and everything thoughI'm sure oh definitely yeah it's

(01:02:06):
like it would be it would bejust great for everyone um maybe
they wouldn't even sting usbecause they would just be like
you don't matter to us we haveour own society like we're not
even paying attention to youpeople they would just outnumber
us just to such a huge extent umwell before we stop today I just
wanted to remind everyone thatthe reason why we're having this
now is because there is an etalk training on August 8th and

(01:02:31):
ETOK is the emergency tenantorganizing commission or
committee.
Committee okay so let's talk abit about e talk and how it came
about obviously there's aresonance and a copy of Ewok
which is the emergency workplaceorganizing committee that came
about during COVID and is nowlike a really big part of like

(01:02:53):
kind of one of the crown jewelsI would say of DSA's tenant
organizing um and or sorry it'sone of the crown jewels of DSA's
labor organizing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:03):
So talk a little bit about the history of E talk um
how it came about and what doyou do in e talk um yeah so so e
talk started I believe 2021 ifnot that then 2022 um and it's
kind of gone through threedifferent phases um at first it

(01:03:26):
was very focused on getting a aspecific group of people like in
a chapter to go through a uhweekend training on how to do
tenant organizing and how tostart a tenant union um and that
was able to see like a number oftenant unions um but it became
very difficult to find thegroups um and so then we went

(01:03:51):
through a period uh around 2020I want to say 24 where we
focused more on rather thanhaving like everybody come to
the same weekend training justif you get together a group of
people we will like put youthrough the training and then we
will mentor you you knowafterwards um there's also a

(01:04:13):
mentorship component um and wewe noticed that that didn't you
know being able to separate sothat you're not like on the same
weekend still ran into thatbottleneck of finding the group
of people um and so you knowlike like you mentioned right
like Ewok we're sort of the likelittle brother that's like

(01:04:35):
notice me notice me like youknow can we play?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:40):
Yeah Ewok's Ewok's like the cool senior and you're
like the like nerdy likefreshman just being like there
money said we can use the Xbox.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:49):
We're gonna be as cool as Ewok soon.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:52):
We're working on it because so so kind of what we
saw and what we realized is umyou know Ewok just does their
trainings on like a certaincadence and it's just kind of
open to anybody and everybodyright and so what it has shifted
into is this this model where umso once a season we hold a

(01:05:16):
training it lasts for four weekstwo hours each week um and we go
through sort of like the theoryof change what are the nuts and
bolts of like organizing andorganizing campaigns and then
like um you know maybe uh at theend we talk a little bit more
about like how to start a tenantunion and so uh what we found

(01:05:38):
was that we started to get notjust people who were looking to
start tenant unions but peoplewho are already in them that
were looking to get like abetter uh uh base understanding
of like what was involved and soum it made it much easier to
find like just uh people to gothrough the training and now uh

(01:05:59):
um People that have gone throughit previously are starting to
create their own cohorts to gothrough it.
And so we still have thatmentorship aspect where if you
go through it with I think it'sthree at least three people
together, then we'll pair youwith a mentor.
Um and yeah, I mean it's it's Iso I went through it locally

(01:06:23):
when we started the the triangletenant union back in 2022.
Um we went through it as agroup, and you know, it just
like totally changed how likelike it just made me understand,
helped me understand like uhmore of why I why I was doing
these things, right?
Like I I was learning the how,but like the why it just helped

(01:06:46):
with that, and that kind ofallowed us to get like uh uh
more direction on you know whereshould we go organize and like
why should we organize there andthat kind of thing.
And so um, you know, it's justbeen it's been great to help,
you know, make it happen.
And um, it's been great to likemeet so many people from around
the country who are likeinterested in these things, and

(01:07:08):
so you know, I would say evensomebody that like may not be
doing tenant organizing butunder wants to understand tenant
unions, like this is a prettygood way uh to do that.
And and the next one, well,Kelly maybe wants to talk more
about when the next one isbecause it's Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:30):
He's almost as passionate about ewak or e-talk
as he is about bees.
Almost, but not quite.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:41):
I just gotta break into, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:48):
Sure.
I think the main point of e-talkis helping people to realize
that landlords actually don'thave as much power as we think
they do.
And this actually is somethingthat we can fight back against
and we can make housing a bettersystem for us or the people that
live in it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:03):
Yeah, and it's also just good for people, even would
you say even people who aren'tsure whether they can or should
form a tenant union to join theco like join up and do this.
Cause when I um when Ewok firststarted, I went through some of
them.
I wasn't able to finish thewhole thing, but you know, I got

(01:08:24):
I started doing labororganizing, and that's how I
became a socialist.
So it was through labororganizing.
And when Ewok came about, it wasdefinitely kind of everyone.
It was people who weredefinitely on the verge of like
forming some kind of um likeorganizing committee, and then
people who were like, I'm notreally sure.
I just think there's somethingwrong, and I I would like to
find out more.

(01:08:44):
And would you say that e talk iskind of the same?
Like anyone can kind of sign upand you know find out more about
whether you're ready.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:52):
Right.
You don't have to be, you know,on the verge of starting a
tenants union.
Some of the big tenantorganizing projects that we have
in Boston, they require a lot ofassistance.
I mean, we talked about itearlier how a lot of the tenants
that are down to organize anddown to fight are those that are
living in subsidized housing orpublic housing, and how we need
really strong mutual aidnetworks.

(01:09:13):
So having people that can dotenant organizing and can help
with those campaigns, um, youknow, we always need more help
canvassing, doing rallies, doingmutual aid work, all of those
things that going through eTalkwill help set members or set
people up to.
So even if they are just curiousabout housing work or they're
curious about tenant organizing,um, or they want to get more

(01:09:35):
involved in doing housing andtenant organizing in their GSA
chapter, eTalk is a greatlaunching point for that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:42):
Great.
Awesome.
And it sounds like there's alsoa sort of train the trainer
component too, similar to ewok,where if someone goes through
e-talk, then they could befuture e-talk facilitator or
something like that, which isalways the beautiful thing about
social uh like socialisttrainings, right?
It's like, oh, you went throughthis, now you get to do some of
the work too.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:03):
You know, just rotate in and out, right?
Please do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:07):
Please, please.
And also maybe say a word aboutthe Housing Justice Commission.
It's an open commission in DSA,so doesn't that mean that you're
taking rolling uh applicationsand and it's an open commission
so long as you're involved inhousing in some way?
Maybe you could say just a quicklittle snippet about that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:26):
Um yeah, I mean, so so anybody can join.
Um there is a form on ourwebsite that you can fill out
and so you'll start.
Uh yes, thank you.
Um, and then something that weare testing out right now is the
um the uh what is the name ofit?

(01:10:48):
Are you thinking about theliaisons?

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:49):
Oh, the liaisons.

SPEAKER_04 (01:10:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so the idea is to have aliaison at the chapter level and
at the tenant union level sothat I mean right now it's just
like very like uh uh um if youcan just get e-talk into the
like chapter newsletter, right,to be to allow us to reach a

(01:11:12):
wider audience or into yourtenant union newsletter, right,
and to recruit people from youknow the formation you're in to
the training, um, that would beincredible.
Um, and then if you want that tobe like more, the idea is that
the liaisons will meet once amonth with the steering
committee um to to to yeah,discuss, hear more about what's

(01:11:35):
going on locally and kind ofhelp to steer the ship more.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:39):
Just to clarify, the how the the ten the lay liaison
connects the housing justicecommission on the national level
to both tenant unions andchapters.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:49):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:50):
Okay, just to make sure I got the triangulation
there correctly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:53):
Yeah, I'm really excited about the liaison
program because I think thatit's a great way to keep DSA,
you know, DSA always tends tokind of go towards electoral
campaigns.
So I think that the liaisonprogram is something that really
helps to keep DSA nationally andand the chapters rooted in
tenant organizing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:11):
Yeah.
I mean, DA DSA is our party,right?
And like, you know, the modelfor our party should be that
we're more like a party in othercountries where there's a lot of
stuff going on and and and notjust like getting people
elected.
In the United States, of course,this is the only way that people
get to experience democracy byand large, you know, and a very

(01:12:34):
impoverished kind of version ofit.
But it sounds to me like there'sjust a lot of growth, um, to use
that you know kind of orgphrase, growth in the tenant
union space um that uh peopleshould plug into.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:52):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:53):
Yeah, thanks, Kelly and Sebastian.
Thanks so much for having us.
Thanks as always to our guestsand our production crew, Emma,
Michael, and Tim, who put thisall together.
Class is a podcast of DSA'sNational Political Education
Committee, NPEC, which works toexpand the knowledge of DSA
members and non-members in theservice of learning the struggle

(01:13:13):
for socialism and democracy.
You can find out more about NPECby searching for us online or
following us in social media,but the best way to find out
what our committee is up to isby signing up for Red Letter,
NPEC's monthly newsletter.
And if you aren't already, youcan become a DSA member by
following the link in thepodcast description.
Okay, until next time,solidarity.