December 20, 2022 • 21 mins
In this episode, Dr. Alfred Tatum talks to us about a grand dichotomy in America, embracing our roles in teaching, disciplinary equity, and the power of literacy. Al is known for his work around the literacy development of African American boys and his most recent work focuses on the roles of texts and writing to advance the literacy development of African American males. Dr. Alfred W. Tatum is the Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs at Metropolitan State University of Denver and President-Elect for the Literacy Research Association.
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2022, Dec. 20). A conversation with Alfred Tatum. (Season 3, No. 14) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/C13B-6FA9-FD10-0AA4-4DFE-P
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. AlfredTatum talks to us about a grand
dichotomy in America, embracingour roles in teaching,
disciplinary equity and thepower of literacy. Al is known
for his work around the literacydevelopment of African American
(00:52):
boys and his most recent workfocuses on the roles of texts
and writing to advance theliteracy development of African
American males. Dr. Alfred Tatumis the Provost and Executive
Vice President for AcademicAffairs at Metropolitan State
University of Denver, and vicepresident elect for the literacy
Research Association. For moreinformation about our guest,
(01:15):
stay tuned to the end of thisepisode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Al,thank you for joining me,
welcome to the show.
Alfred Tatum (01:34):
It's great to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (01:35):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now,
Alfred Tatum (01:43):
my thinking has primarily been informed by the
experiences I had with youngboys in my classroom as a first
year teacher, this is going tosound hyperbolic. But frankly, I
was horrified by the lowstandards during my first year
(02:04):
of teaching, and the trajectoryof shape. And so by the time
students reached me in eighthgrade, it became very important
for me to embrace the idea thatliteracy must be a mighty
effort, and must becomprehensive effort to ensure
no person was underserved in mypresence. And that stark reality
(02:29):
hit me my very first year ofteaching,
Lindsay Persohn (02:32):
what was it about that experience that
really led you to the workyou're doing now,
Alfred Tatum (02:36):
It was contrary to my experiences growing up. And
so I was a student in theChicago public schools and the
beneficiary of great teachers,the beneficiary of great text, I
was supremely prepared. And whenI observed what was happening to
the students, not because oftheir fault, it made me realize
(03:00):
that we were shaping twoAmericas and literacy was at the
center of it. So juxtaposingthat to my personal experience
growing up, and I taughtstudents who had the same
identity, African American boys,I was in a predominantly African
American school at the time, andI just had a low tolerance for
(03:21):
students failing in my presence,and it stopped the commitment to
learn everything I can turnunder the sun, to protect these
students rights to a highquality literacy experience.
Lindsay Persohn (03:34):
This idea of shaping two Americas I hope that
you'll say a little bit moreabout that, because I have a
feeling that there are manylisteners who can sympathize
with that idea. So I'm hopingthat maybe you'll unpack that
experience for us a little bit,share your observations, and I'm
sure that'll lead us to our nextquestion about your work, but to
sort of lead us or help us tofollow that path with you have
(03:56):
these observations that you madethat set you out on on the
journey to find everything underthe sun,
Alfred Tatum (04:01):
it's really about a grand dichotomy. And so on one
end of that dichotomy, you reapall the benefits, and awards,
rewards that society offer. Onthe other end of that dichotomy,
you are suffocatingeconomically, politically,
(04:23):
socially. I can go on and onhealth, housing, and that grand
dichotomy should disturb all ofus, particularly if we are
accomplices, and to making thathappen, and I'm speaking about
educators right now, we have aresponsibility to make sure if
(04:46):
we think about this dichotomy,you move young people toward the
end of that dichotomy that ismore socially satisfying,
politically satisfying,economically satisfying, because
that's how we continue to spreadthe wealth by giving back to
(05:06):
those who come after us. And theother part about this dichotomy?
I know I use the term shapingtwo Americas we have those who
have strong social andscientific consciousness in a
way that allows them to protectthemselves, protect their
families, protect theircommunities, protect the nation.
(05:27):
And on the other hand of thatdichotomy, we have those who
have become dependent onsystems. And that notion of
being independent, versusdependent with tools of
protection is quite disturbing.
If we are doing something thatcements that grand dichotomy
(05:50):
that leads to these long termhierarchies that are very
difficult to interrupt. If wedon't give them serious
interrogation.
Lindsay Persohn (06:01):
Yeah, so Al what you're saying it makes me
think about the area where Ilive and grew up and, and also
now teach and prepare preservice teachers in the state of
Florida. And I'm hoping that youmight be able to help us to
maybe uncover what some of thosestructures are, as we know, the
(06:21):
teaching profession tends to bewhite females. And so how can we
begin to understand thisdichotomy in order to disrupt
it, particularly if we maybecome from a background where we
are on the end of your dichotomyof receiving many of those
benefits? How can we begin tounderstand lived experiences of
(06:42):
others so that we are able tosupport them in their learning
journey, and really get awayfrom this idea of shaping two
Americas where we are givingeveryone opportunities to learn
and to grow and to become thepeople? They want to be? How,
how can we get started on thatjourney, if it's not something
that is part of our own personalbackground,
Alfred Tatum (07:03):
I think we already understand the differences that
exist in society, we've beentalking about it for close to a
century, just as it relates toeducation. So this is not a
reintroduction before us. Butwhat's going to be very
important is that we don't parkour competence or lack of
(07:26):
knowledge, behind the wrongthings, race, economics,
culture, we often start with apoor conceptualization of what
this really means. So one, justa small push back, we fully
understand what's happening, wedon't have to learn about these
experiences anew. But we do haveto ask the question, what do we
(07:46):
need to become smarter about sowe start authorizing different
trajectories? That's not goingto be race based, or cultural
based, or community based, it'sreally going to be competency
base and enveloped in a love ofcare for the human beings that
we are responsible forsupporting. We have to wash away
(08:11):
those things that continuallygive us license to fail other
people, for example, I was astudent teacher in a
predominately white school. If Iwas not prepared to teach those
students, it wasn't because Ididn't understand their culture,
their ethnicity, their race,their experience. It was because
(08:32):
I was not fully equipped to dothose things that I was charged
to do as an educator. And soearly on in my career, I began
to ask the question, What am Imissing? And what do I need to
become smarter about? And thething that made the difference
had very little to do with manycultural appropriations or
(08:56):
misappropriations. It was reallyrooted in I'm going to talk
about reading specifically, canI teach a kid how to decode a
word without regard to hisparents income? Can I nurture
reading fluency, comprehensionmonitoring, teach phonemic
awareness, shape curricularpractices, go in with an ethic
of love that allows me to remainsteadfast and accept and embrace
(09:20):
my charge as an educator. We allhave to think about what that
means for us individually. Wewill all have some gaps, and
then continue to ask thatquestion, what do I need to
become smart about but let's notpark it behind conversations and
licenses, although that continueto allow us to underserve
students in our present, embraceyour role as a teacher, embrace
(09:43):
your role as an educator and oneof my first principles told me
and I'm going to say it verbatimlet nothing or no one make you a
poor teacher. And that hasbecome part of my mantra for a
long time. I've been doing thisfor a while but I'm constantly
studying to figure out what ismy next move to serve our nation
(10:07):
of children.
Lindsay Persohn (10:08):
That's so helpful. I think that it's, it's
helpful to refocus our energyright on, as you said, the human
beings right in front of us andhow we can best serve each of
them. Because I think that thereis so much noise in education
right now that it can be verydifficult to know where to begin
in order to identify what you'remissing and what you need to do
(10:29):
or what you need to becomesmarter about. I think that
there are just a lot ofdistractions right now that can
actually take us away from thatobjective of being the best
educators we can to every childwho sets foot in our classrooms.
So I really appreciate that kindof refocusing the energy into
every child, every individualwho's in front of us in
(10:50):
classrooms. And so I hope thatin response, this next question,
you'll help us to continue onthat journey of thinking. So
what do you want listeners toknow about your work, Al?
Alfred Tatum (10:59):
it's important to understand how we've all been
positioned to authorizeunderperformance and failure. It
has either been through anassessment lens, it has occurred
through reckless research. Ithas been influenced by political
(11:20):
naysayers or other naysayers.
That just finds a way toimprison reading, writing and
intellectual development bysmallness. So what I've been
trying to do over the lastcouple of years is really
shaping the argument that we canmove students toward advanced
levels of reading, writing, andintellectual development, if we
(11:44):
don't get bogged down by some ofthe ongoing conversations, and
so right now we have the scienceof reading conversation versus
complex text or grade leveltexts. But nowhere in there do
you hear the need to nurtureintellectual development across
the disciplines. I was having aconversation recently. And it
(12:06):
was around issues of equity. AndI said, we need to think about
disciplinary equity. So alltext, and all disciplines belong
to me, that is the culture thatI came up with. And so I can
become equally excited byscience or history, African
American history, which was oneof my favorite subjects growing
(12:29):
up. But I can also take aFortran class, chemistry class,
a physics class. And I foundresidence in all of those
subject areas, sometimes werobbed students of the
opportunity to find that type ofresidence. That's disciplinary
equity. That's critical in mynew thinking, as it's always
(12:49):
been there, but I've been morepronounced by it. But then there
was an incident in a small townrecently. And as a university
administrator, I think about labequity, who's in those labs. So
they bought the young girl whosomeone called the police on
this young girl finding sometype of insects and trees. And
so someone from Yale invited herto have a conversation. And I
(13:11):
just saw this young girl daysearlier, who had the police
called on her walking through alab at Yale, and being totally
excited. Both of thoseexperiences could shape
residents in a particular way.
So there was a psychologicalresidence or this physical
(13:31):
residence. And we have to bevery careful when we think about
that. And I think literacy is atool of protection. It can
destroy everything that goesagainst our humanity. But we
want to make sure that studentshave the affordances to move
towards advanced levels ofreading, writing, and
intellectual development. If wedon't do that, then shame on all
(13:55):
of us.
Lindsay Persohn (13:56):
So I know you have significant contributions
to the world of particularlyliteracy with African American
voice. And in that context, isthere anything else that you
would want listeners to knowabout the work that you've done?
Alfred Tatum (14:09):
I think there's a need to find the appropriate
balance between the largerconversations about the role of
literacy, and then the pragmatictools to move it forward. My
work has always been anchored bytwo of those. And so let's think
deeply about what this means forus. But then how do we translate
(14:30):
it pragmatically? So that we'reseeing evidence across our
respective classrooms, schools,etc. I just put African American
boys at the center of my workbecause the nation continues to
miss the mark. And I see far toomany of these students. I see it
(14:51):
across all ethnic groups, but Isee far too many of these
students losing confidence inthis thing we call reading, and
writing and intellectualdevelopment. So the whole focus
of this is how do youresuscitate that confidence in
ways that they begin to embracetext, and become absolutely
(15:13):
convinced that this has thatdeterminative power to move them
toward that grand dichotomy. Wetalked about an economy earlier,
move them for that granddichotomy that says, This is
where you belong. No moreintellectual isolation, no more,
(15:33):
finding comfort in the mostdemeaning aspects of society.
And so these young boys have tofind immediate, they have the
power within them. But someonehas to help them release that
power. That was my experiencegrowing up, never had a shortage
of confidence around theseparticular things in elements.
(15:54):
And I've seen young boys tilttoward the sunlight, when they
get a rich and meaningfulliteracy experience. And I'm
going to continue to move inthat direction without
equivocation, to make sure thatI play a small part, to
interrupt that hierarchy thatleads to national conversations
(16:15):
where these boys are at thebottom of the queue. Not just
physically but in people'simagination.
Lindsay Persohn (16:24):
What an important message, I think, for
all of us as educators to hearand that metaphor you use of
tilting towards the sun, itreally fills me with hope for
students who are in situationslike that, where they are, in
fact being tilted toward thesunlight in order to help them
grow. Because you're absolutelyright. I think we all have
potential inside of us toachieve our goals to identify
(16:47):
opportunities. But often you doneed someone who, who serves as
a bit of a compass, or canintroduce students to those
kinds of experiences. So Ireally appreciate that, that
vision of the kinds ofopportunities that we can
provide in our own classroomspaces in order to support
students learning. So given thechallenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
Alfred Tatum (17:10):
I'm going to speak very briefly with this. And this
hear?
particularly for literacyeducators, we have to have an
epic faith in the written word.
That epic faith allows me toremain steadfast. If you don't
have that epic faith, you willdo strange things that, whether
(17:31):
intentional or unintentional,cause some students to Surr-
surrender their life chancesbefore they get to know their
life choices. I know the powerof literacy. I've witnessed it,
I've studied it. And because ofthat, I have that epic faith in
the written word, the power oftext, and the life outcome
(17:53):
trajectory it shapes, teachersshould find their power and
something very similar, thatwould allow them to always think
deeply and seriously aboutdestroying anything that
resembles a horror of thehorrific standards that I
(18:15):
started with. No one should everexperience horrific standards of
low levels of literacy. And Ican't do that with an epic faith
and the written word.
Lindsay Persohn (18:27):
Well, I thank you very much for that message.
And I think that that does helpto refocus our energy. Because,
you know, in some spaces, it isa daily challenge to refocus on
what matters most. And so Ireally appreciate you sharing
that with us. And thank youagain for your tremendous
contributions to the world ofeducation.
Alfred Tatum (18:45):
But I just love what you're doing and why are
you doing this and theseconversations are important. I
am privileged to be a part ofthem this morning.
Lindsay Persohn (18:53):
Well, thank you so much. Dr. Alfred W. Tatum is
known for his work around theliteracy development of African
American boys. As a foremostexpert on the literacy
development of African Americanboys., He's authored more than
75 publications on the topic.
His works have appeared hischapters and edited books,
monographs, and journals such asthe Harvard educational review,
(19:13):
reading Research Quarterly,urban education, Black History
bulletin, the reading teacher,Journal of adolescent and adult
literacy, Journal of educationand educational leadership and
literacy research theory, methodand practice. Alfred authored
the award winning book teachingreading to black adolescent
males closing the achievementgap in 2005. His second book
(19:36):
reading for their liferebuilding the textual lineages
of African American males, waspublished in 2009. His third
book, fearless voices engaging anew generation of African
American adolescent malewriters, was published in 2013.
His most recent book, teachingblack boys in the elementary
(19:57):
grades advanced disciplinaryreading and writing to secure
their futures was published byteachers college press in 2021.
He's also the author of fourmajor reading and writing
programs used with millions ofstudents throughout the US. His
current research focuses on theroles of text and writing to
advance the literacy developmentof African American males. Al is
(20:17):
also the father of two AfricanAmerican men. He is currently
the Provost and Executive VicePresident for Academic Affairs
at Metropolitan State Universityof Denver, and vice president
elect for the literacy ResearchAssociation. For the good of all
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
and practice. If this showprovides you with things to
(20:42):
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(21:04):
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(21:32):
Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. AlfredTatum talks to us about a grand
dichotomy in America, embracingour roles in teaching,
disciplinary equity and thepower of literacy. Al is known
for his work around the literacydevelopment of African American
(00:52):
boys and his most recent workfocuses on the roles of texts
and writing to advance theliteracy development of African
American males. Dr. Alfred Tatumis the Provost and Executive
Vice President for AcademicAffairs at Metropolitan State
University of Denver, and vicepresident elect for the literacy
Research Association. For moreinformation about our guest,
(01:15):
stay tuned to the end of thisepisode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Al,thank you for joining me,
welcome to the show.
Alfred Tatum (01:34):
It's great to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (01:35):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now,
Alfred Tatum (01:43):
my thinking has primarily been informed by the
experiences I had with youngboys in my classroom as a first
year teacher, this is going tosound hyperbolic. But frankly, I
was horrified by the lowstandards during my first year
(02:04):
of teaching, and the trajectoryof shape. And so by the time
students reached me in eighthgrade, it became very important
for me to embrace the idea thatliteracy must be a mighty
effort, and must becomprehensive effort to ensure
no person was underserved in mypresence. And that stark reality
(02:29):
hit me my very first year ofteaching,
Lindsay Persohn (02:32):
what was it about that experience that
really led you to the workyou're doing now,
Alfred Tatum (02:36):
It was contrary to my experiences growing up. And
so I was a student in theChicago public schools and the
beneficiary of great teachers,the beneficiary of great text, I
was supremely prepared. And whenI observed what was happening to
the students, not because oftheir fault, it made me realize
(03:00):
that we were shaping twoAmericas and literacy was at the
center of it. So juxtaposingthat to my personal experience
growing up, and I taughtstudents who had the same
identity, African American boys,I was in a predominantly African
American school at the time, andI just had a low tolerance for
(03:21):
students failing in my presence,and it stopped the commitment to
learn everything I can turnunder the sun, to protect these
students rights to a highquality literacy experience.
Lindsay Persohn (03:34):
This idea of shaping two Americas I hope that
you'll say a little bit moreabout that, because I have a
feeling that there are manylisteners who can sympathize
with that idea. So I'm hopingthat maybe you'll unpack that
experience for us a little bit,share your observations, and I'm
sure that'll lead us to our nextquestion about your work, but to
sort of lead us or help us tofollow that path with you have
(03:56):
these observations that you madethat set you out on on the
journey to find everything underthe sun,
Alfred Tatum (04:01):
it's really about a grand dichotomy. And so on one
end of that dichotomy, you reapall the benefits, and awards,
rewards that society offer. Onthe other end of that dichotomy,
you are suffocatingeconomically, politically,
(04:23):
socially. I can go on and onhealth, housing, and that grand
dichotomy should disturb all ofus, particularly if we are
accomplices, and to making thathappen, and I'm speaking about
educators right now, we have aresponsibility to make sure if
(04:46):
we think about this dichotomy,you move young people toward the
end of that dichotomy that ismore socially satisfying,
politically satisfying,economically satisfying, because
that's how we continue to spreadthe wealth by giving back to
(05:06):
those who come after us. And theother part about this dichotomy?
I know I use the term shapingtwo Americas we have those who
have strong social andscientific consciousness in a
way that allows them to protectthemselves, protect their
families, protect theircommunities, protect the nation.
(05:27):
And on the other hand of thatdichotomy, we have those who
have become dependent onsystems. And that notion of
being independent, versusdependent with tools of
protection is quite disturbing.
If we are doing something thatcements that grand dichotomy
(05:50):
that leads to these long termhierarchies that are very
difficult to interrupt. If wedon't give them serious
interrogation.
Lindsay Persohn (06:01):
Yeah, so Al what you're saying it makes me
think about the area where Ilive and grew up and, and also
now teach and prepare preservice teachers in the state of
Florida. And I'm hoping that youmight be able to help us to
maybe uncover what some of thosestructures are, as we know, the
(06:21):
teaching profession tends to bewhite females. And so how can we
begin to understand thisdichotomy in order to disrupt
it, particularly if we maybecome from a background where we
are on the end of your dichotomyof receiving many of those
benefits? How can we begin tounderstand lived experiences of
(06:42):
others so that we are able tosupport them in their learning
journey, and really get awayfrom this idea of shaping two
Americas where we are givingeveryone opportunities to learn
and to grow and to become thepeople? They want to be? How,
how can we get started on thatjourney, if it's not something
that is part of our own personalbackground,
Alfred Tatum (07:03):
I think we already understand the differences that
exist in society, we've beentalking about it for close to a
century, just as it relates toeducation. So this is not a
reintroduction before us. Butwhat's going to be very
important is that we don't parkour competence or lack of
(07:26):
knowledge, behind the wrongthings, race, economics,
culture, we often start with apoor conceptualization of what
this really means. So one, justa small push back, we fully
understand what's happening, wedon't have to learn about these
experiences anew. But we do haveto ask the question, what do we
(07:46):
need to become smarter about sowe start authorizing different
trajectories? That's not goingto be race based, or cultural
based, or community based, it'sreally going to be competency
base and enveloped in a love ofcare for the human beings that
we are responsible forsupporting. We have to wash away
(08:11):
those things that continuallygive us license to fail other
people, for example, I was astudent teacher in a
predominately white school. If Iwas not prepared to teach those
students, it wasn't because Ididn't understand their culture,
their ethnicity, their race,their experience. It was because
(08:32):
I was not fully equipped to dothose things that I was charged
to do as an educator. And soearly on in my career, I began
to ask the question, What am Imissing? And what do I need to
become smarter about? And thething that made the difference
had very little to do with manycultural appropriations or
(08:56):
misappropriations. It was reallyrooted in I'm going to talk
about reading specifically, canI teach a kid how to decode a
word without regard to hisparents income? Can I nurture
reading fluency, comprehensionmonitoring, teach phonemic
awareness, shape curricularpractices, go in with an ethic
of love that allows me to remainsteadfast and accept and embrace
(09:20):
my charge as an educator. We allhave to think about what that
means for us individually. Wewill all have some gaps, and
then continue to ask thatquestion, what do I need to
become smart about but let's notpark it behind conversations and
licenses, although that continueto allow us to underserve
students in our present, embraceyour role as a teacher, embrace
(09:43):
your role as an educator and oneof my first principles told me
and I'm going to say it verbatimlet nothing or no one make you a
poor teacher. And that hasbecome part of my mantra for a
long time. I've been doing thisfor a while but I'm constantly
studying to figure out what ismy next move to serve our nation
(10:07):
of children.
Lindsay Persohn (10:08):
That's so helpful. I think that it's, it's
helpful to refocus our energyright on, as you said, the human
beings right in front of us andhow we can best serve each of
them. Because I think that thereis so much noise in education
right now that it can be verydifficult to know where to begin
in order to identify what you'remissing and what you need to do
(10:29):
or what you need to becomesmarter about. I think that
there are just a lot ofdistractions right now that can
actually take us away from thatobjective of being the best
educators we can to every childwho sets foot in our classrooms.
So I really appreciate that kindof refocusing the energy into
every child, every individualwho's in front of us in
(10:50):
classrooms. And so I hope thatin response, this next question,
you'll help us to continue onthat journey of thinking. So
what do you want listeners toknow about your work, Al?
Alfred Tatum (10:59):
it's important to understand how we've all been
positioned to authorizeunderperformance and failure. It
has either been through anassessment lens, it has occurred
through reckless research. Ithas been influenced by political
(11:20):
naysayers or other naysayers.
That just finds a way toimprison reading, writing and
intellectual development bysmallness. So what I've been
trying to do over the lastcouple of years is really
shaping the argument that we canmove students toward advanced
levels of reading, writing, andintellectual development, if we
(11:44):
don't get bogged down by some ofthe ongoing conversations, and
so right now we have the scienceof reading conversation versus
complex text or grade leveltexts. But nowhere in there do
you hear the need to nurtureintellectual development across
the disciplines. I was having aconversation recently. And it
(12:06):
was around issues of equity. AndI said, we need to think about
disciplinary equity. So alltext, and all disciplines belong
to me, that is the culture thatI came up with. And so I can
become equally excited byscience or history, African
American history, which was oneof my favorite subjects growing
(12:29):
up. But I can also take aFortran class, chemistry class,
a physics class. And I foundresidence in all of those
subject areas, sometimes werobbed students of the
opportunity to find that type ofresidence. That's disciplinary
equity. That's critical in mynew thinking, as it's always
(12:49):
been there, but I've been morepronounced by it. But then there
was an incident in a small townrecently. And as a university
administrator, I think about labequity, who's in those labs. So
they bought the young girl whosomeone called the police on
this young girl finding sometype of insects and trees. And
so someone from Yale invited herto have a conversation. And I
(13:11):
just saw this young girl daysearlier, who had the police
called on her walking through alab at Yale, and being totally
excited. Both of thoseexperiences could shape
residents in a particular way.
So there was a psychologicalresidence or this physical
(13:31):
residence. And we have to bevery careful when we think about
that. And I think literacy is atool of protection. It can
destroy everything that goesagainst our humanity. But we
want to make sure that studentshave the affordances to move
towards advanced levels ofreading, writing, and
intellectual development. If wedon't do that, then shame on all
(13:55):
of us.
Lindsay Persohn (13:56):
So I know you have significant contributions
to the world of particularlyliteracy with African American
voice. And in that context, isthere anything else that you
would want listeners to knowabout the work that you've done?
Alfred Tatum (14:09):
I think there's a need to find the appropriate
balance between the largerconversations about the role of
literacy, and then the pragmatictools to move it forward. My
work has always been anchored bytwo of those. And so let's think
deeply about what this means forus. But then how do we translate
(14:30):
it pragmatically? So that we'reseeing evidence across our
respective classrooms, schools,etc. I just put African American
boys at the center of my workbecause the nation continues to
miss the mark. And I see far toomany of these students. I see it
(14:51):
across all ethnic groups, but Isee far too many of these
students losing confidence inthis thing we call reading, and
writing and intellectualdevelopment. So the whole focus
of this is how do youresuscitate that confidence in
ways that they begin to embracetext, and become absolutely
(15:13):
convinced that this has thatdeterminative power to move them
toward that grand dichotomy. Wetalked about an economy earlier,
move them for that granddichotomy that says, This is
where you belong. No moreintellectual isolation, no more,
(15:33):
finding comfort in the mostdemeaning aspects of society.
And so these young boys have tofind immediate, they have the
power within them. But someonehas to help them release that
power. That was my experiencegrowing up, never had a shortage
of confidence around theseparticular things in elements.
(15:54):
And I've seen young boys tilttoward the sunlight, when they
get a rich and meaningfulliteracy experience. And I'm
going to continue to move inthat direction without
equivocation, to make sure thatI play a small part, to
interrupt that hierarchy thatleads to national conversations
(16:15):
where these boys are at thebottom of the queue. Not just
physically but in people'simagination.
Lindsay Persohn (16:24):
What an important message, I think, for
all of us as educators to hearand that metaphor you use of
tilting towards the sun, itreally fills me with hope for
students who are in situationslike that, where they are, in
fact being tilted toward thesunlight in order to help them
grow. Because you're absolutelyright. I think we all have
potential inside of us toachieve our goals to identify
(16:47):
opportunities. But often you doneed someone who, who serves as
a bit of a compass, or canintroduce students to those
kinds of experiences. So Ireally appreciate that, that
vision of the kinds ofopportunities that we can
provide in our own classroomspaces in order to support
students learning. So given thechallenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
Alfred Tatum (17:10):
I'm going to speak very briefly with this. And this
hear?
particularly for literacyeducators, we have to have an
epic faith in the written word.
That epic faith allows me toremain steadfast. If you don't
have that epic faith, you willdo strange things that, whether
(17:31):
intentional or unintentional,cause some students to Surr-
surrender their life chancesbefore they get to know their
life choices. I know the powerof literacy. I've witnessed it,
I've studied it. And because ofthat, I have that epic faith in
the written word, the power oftext, and the life outcome
(17:53):
trajectory it shapes, teachersshould find their power and
something very similar, thatwould allow them to always think
deeply and seriously aboutdestroying anything that
resembles a horror of thehorrific standards that I
(18:15):
started with. No one should everexperience horrific standards of
low levels of literacy. And Ican't do that with an epic faith
and the written word.
Lindsay Persohn (18:27):
Well, I thank you very much for that message.
And I think that that does helpto refocus our energy. Because,
you know, in some spaces, it isa daily challenge to refocus on
what matters most. And so Ireally appreciate you sharing
that with us. And thank youagain for your tremendous
contributions to the world ofeducation.
Alfred Tatum (18:45):
But I just love what you're doing and why are
you doing this and theseconversations are important. I
am privileged to be a part ofthem this morning.
Lindsay Persohn (18:53):
Well, thank you so much. Dr. Alfred W. Tatum is
known for his work around theliteracy development of African
American boys. As a foremostexpert on the literacy
development of African Americanboys., He's authored more than
75 publications on the topic.
His works have appeared hischapters and edited books,
monographs, and journals such asthe Harvard educational review,
(19:13):
reading Research Quarterly,urban education, Black History
bulletin, the reading teacher,Journal of adolescent and adult
literacy, Journal of educationand educational leadership and
literacy research theory, methodand practice. Alfred authored
the award winning book teachingreading to black adolescent
males closing the achievementgap in 2005. His second book
(19:36):
reading for their liferebuilding the textual lineages
of African American males, waspublished in 2009. His third
book, fearless voices engaging anew generation of African
American adolescent malewriters, was published in 2013.
His most recent book, teachingblack boys in the elementary
(19:57):
grades advanced disciplinaryreading and writing to secure
their futures was published byteachers college press in 2021.
He's also the author of fourmajor reading and writing
programs used with millions ofstudents throughout the US. His
current research focuses on theroles of text and writing to
advance the literacy developmentof African American males. Al is
(20:17):
also the father of two AfricanAmerican men. He is currently
the Provost and Executive VicePresident for Academic Affairs
at Metropolitan State Universityof Denver, and vice president
elect for the literacy ResearchAssociation. For the good of all
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
and practice. If this showprovides you with things to
(20:42):
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
WWW dot classroom caffeine.comwhere you can learn more about
each guest. Find transcripts formany episodes, explore episode
(21:04):
topics using our taggingfeature, support podcast,
research through our survey,request an episode topic or a
potential guest or share yourown questions that we might
respond to through the show. Youcould also leave us a voice
message or a text message at1-941-212-0949. We would love to
hear from you. As always, Iraised my mug to you teachers.
(21:32):
Thanks for joining me
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