April 11, 2023 • 34 mins
Drs. Amy Vetter and Melissa Schieble talk to us about teacher agency, community, and critical conversations. A third scholar, Kahdeidra Monét Martin, is also involved in their recent research. Amy is known for her work in understanding how classroom interactions impact developing reader and writer identities as well as teacher identities, the role of critical conversations in educational settings, and the impotence of learning from the writing identities of young people. Melissa is known for her work on analyses of power, privilege and oppression in fiction for youth and in classroom discourse. Together, with Kahdeidra, they have published multiple research articles on the topic of critical classroom conversations as well as the book Classroom Talk for Social Change: Critical Conversations in English Language Arts, published in 2020 by Teachers College Press.
Resources mentioned in this episode: NCTE Intellectual Freedom Center
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Apr. 11). A conversation with Amy Vetter and Melissa Schieble (Season 3, No. 22) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/26D8-D7C3-D4B1-E9FF-DB33-R
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences. In this episode,
doctors Amy Vetter, and MelissaShible talk to us about teacher
agency, community and criticalconversations. A third scholar
Kahdeidre Monet Martin, who willbe an assistant professor at
Vassar College next year is alsoinvolved in their recent
(00:53):
research. Amy is known for herwork and understanding how
classroom interactions impactdeveloping reader and writer
identities, as well as teacheridentities, the role of critical
conversations and educationalsettings, and the importance of
learning from the writingidentities of young people.
Melissa is known for her work onanalyses of power, privilege and
(01:16):
oppression in fiction for youthand in classroom discourse.
Together with Kahdeidre theyhave published multiple research
articles on the topic ofcritical classroom
conversations, as well as thebook classroom talk for social
change critical conversations inEnglish language arts, published
in 2020 by teachers collegepress. For more information
(01:38):
about our guests, stay tuned tothe end of this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice.
Amy and Melissa, thank you forjoining me. Welcome to the show.
Unknown (01:58):
Thanks for having us.
Lindsay Persohn (02:01):
So Melissa, we'll start with you for this
first question. From your ownexperiences and education. Will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Melissa Schieble (02:12):
Yeah, thanks, Lindsay. I think this is a
really important question forconsidering the importance of
this work. And I wouldn't say Ihave one or two isolated moments
or experiences, but really asort of lifespan of experiences
that have accumulated and haveled me to our research. And I
(02:34):
think that really starts with myown experiences as a young
person. I'm from a small,primarily white, middle class
town in the Midwest, UnitedStates. And I attended a very
traditional school, my teacherslooked like me, my classmates
looked like me, the way I spokein my home, match the language
(02:56):
expectations of my school. Andso because of that, I didn't
have a lot of tools as a youngperson to really understand my
power and positioning and mysocial world, I didn't have a
lot of tools to help me unpacksome of the privileges that I
had in relationship to my mywhiteness and relationship to my
class. And I also over time, asa young person, especially
(03:21):
moving into young adulthood,really internalized a lot of
sexism, a lot of the messagesabout gender that were present
in my social world as a child,and because of that, you know,
as a as an English major incollege, and, you know, moving
into being an ELA teacher, and ateacher, educator and
researcher, I find thatliterature is really important
(03:44):
catalyst for providing thosetools. And I'm so grateful that
I learned those tools through mycollege and educational
experiences and consistently tryto learn and continuously learn
and unlearn and continuouslylearn and, you know, strive for
that humility, with myknowledge. And it really has
(04:06):
shaped the trajectory of myresearch of my scholarship in
not only supporting educators todevelop curriculum, make book
selections and develop questionsto talk with kids about in
classrooms that really helpcritically unpack students,
social identities, privileges,areas where they feel they are
(04:29):
marked marginalized or oppressedin society, and then also to
provide spaces in ELAclassrooms, for the ways that
those conversations are alsoliberating the ways that they
can provide pathways tosolidarity and in help students
(04:49):
enact their own agency in theirsocial worlds. And so I would
say that, that sort of lifespanexperience is really what has
led me to this work.
Lindsay Persohn (04:59):
Thank you. For that, Melissa, and I'll I'll
throw the same question over toAmy, from your own experiences
and education, will you sharewith us one or two moments that
inform your thinking now?
Amy Vetter (05:10):
Thanks, Lindsay, that was listening to you talk,
Melissa was thinking about thesedinner table conversations and
why they're so important. And Igrew up in Louisiana, and we had
a lot of dinner tableconversations about like
politics and, you know,questioning these things. But
that mainly happened at thedinner table, unlike when we
went outside of sort of thatplace, those conversations were
(05:30):
different because I was in acommunity where people believed
very differently from the valuesand beliefs of my family. And so
that probably is one of thereasons why I'm so interested in
these critical conversations,because I wanted to learn more
about how can you have dialoguethat you know, is, you know,
productive? That's the rightword or not, you know, with
people who believe verydifferently from you. How do you
(05:51):
get into that? And how can youhelp others get into that? But
you know, in thinking about aspecific educational experience,
you know, Melissa, and I reallystarted working together we met
at LRA had, I don't know, over10 years ago, I think, and we
were very interested and usingdiscourse analysis as a tool
(06:12):
with our pre service teachers.
And so we were both, you know,teaching methods classes, and we
were both doing some kind oflike video analysis, where we
would ask our students to videorecord some of the lessons that
they were doing, and then wewould ask them to transcribe it.
And then we turn this into aresearch project, we were asking
them, like, what kind of teacherdo you want to be? Now let's
(06:34):
look at these transcripts acrosstime and see if you've actually
been able to enact thisfacilitator identity or whatever
it is that they said. And wefound that to be a very useful
reflective tool for pre serviceteachers over time, they can
really figure out alright, Ineed to learn how to enact this
and get better at it. Superuseful. But then we discovered
(06:55):
that we were also asking themquestions about okay, well, how
how does your race? How doesyour class how does your sexual
orientation and so on? How doesall of those things shaped what
you were doing in your classroomand the kind of teacher you want
to be? And we were gettingsilence a lot of the times or
very surface level answers, andboth Melissa and I, you know,
(07:17):
had conversations and wethought, okay, well, what can we
do as teachers to better supportour students to engage in these
critical conversations. And whatthat meant for us, was really
figuring out we had to do a lotof work, we had to do a lot of,
oh, wow, we need to do our ownreflection, we need to practice
this ourselves in order tobecome better at it. And so I
(07:38):
think for me, you know, thatthat was sort of the beginning
of this journey, and to studyingcritical conversations and
classrooms, all levels ofclassrooms. So
Lindsay Persohn (07:51):
I think something you just said, Amy, is
such an important part ofreflective practice. And I think
it's important to show thatthat's something that never
leaves us, even if we leaveclassroom practice, right, that
idea of when our students havedifficulty, how do we in fact,
support them and guide them?
Through that process? Sometimesit is doing it ourselves, right,
and reflecting on what thatactually sounds like, what that
(08:11):
looks like? It's a greatreminder. Thank you. And so Amy,
I'm also going to throw thissecond question to you, what do
you want listeners to know aboutyour work?
Amy Vetter (08:22):
Yeah, so I mean, it's pretty much connected with
what I was just talking aboutthat Melissa And I, you know,
worked really hard for manyyears, we had a pilot study, and
then another two years studywith an inquiry group of
teachers that were focused oncritical conversations. And so
we met once a month, we recordedthe conversations, they would
transcribe conversations andwhat we mean the way we define
(08:44):
critical conversations areconversations about power and
privilege within a classroom.
And because we're literacyteachers, that's what we focus
on. And a lot of thoseconversations are around pieces
of literature. Because, youknow, that makes sense. We're
middle high school Englishteachers. So but yeah, we met
monthly, we had them transcribethose conversations. And then we
asked, you know, questions tohelp them dig in into those
(09:07):
transcripts. We had them readarticles to help them unpack
what was going on. And, youknow, we did a pilot study, and
then I said, two years, and Iwas like, wow, after you
analyzing all that data, we werelike, oh, there are so many
things we could have done evenbetter. As all as all research
goes. And we're continuing downpack that. But one of the things
(09:29):
from the book that I think wouldbe useful for teachers, all
educators, really, you know, inK through 12, classrooms,
teacher, educators,administrators, is if you really
want to engage in this work offostering critical
conversations, I came up withfive things. One of them is
having knowledge about power andprivilege. You know, that idea
(09:51):
of what what is critical andwhat does that mean? And so that
means doing a lot of reading andtalking about it. Understanding
what critical pedagogies are sohaving knowledge about it, but
then also having some practice,you know, like some, you know,
past practice and trying it outin the classroom, taking on this
critical learner stance, andthat is very much connected with
reflecting critically. But italso really just means being
(10:15):
open to things that you don'tknow being open to hearing other
perspectives. So onvulnerability, we really found
that we all needed to makeourselves really vulnerable and
tell stories about maybe when weweren't doing things well or
something in the past, you know,things like that. And we tried
to model that as much as wecould with the teachers. And
then finally, critical talkingwas because we are at in our
(10:38):
hearts, we are discourseanalysts, we love looking,
that's why Melissa and I lovedoing work together because we
love digging into these localmoments of language and then
making connections to, you know,what does that mean for the
macro and understanding thesebigger questions about the
world. And so we broke down somecritical talk moves that
teachers might be able to enactthat might help students disrupt
(10:59):
some assumptions that they'remaking about something or help
them become vulnerable or so on.
We don't like to think of themas like conversation starters,
like everyone needs to starttheir sentence with that. But
it's more like, you know, howcan you disrupt a student who is
saying something, but do it andmaybe a form of a question or do
(11:21):
it in the form of a story orsomething that can really open
up more perspectives or inviteother people into the mix. So
that's what I hope that peoplewill take away from from the
work that we have been doing.
Melissa Schieble (11:34):
Yeah, I can add on to that. Thank you, Amy.
That was a really good sort ofsummary of some of that work
we've been doing together. Andand I think, in addition to what
we wrote about in the book aresome places that we really felt
still intrigued us, or weresurprising about the work. So
for me, something in particularis when we began the project, we
(11:55):
really focused on the talk, whatwas said, how the questions were
formed, what the dialogue lookedlike. And I think having, you
know, engaged in this projectnow, for many years, something I
learned was that so much of themessaging that happens in what
we might call criticalconversations, or difficult
conversations, or courageousconversations, oftentimes takes
(12:18):
place through body language,through nonverbal interactions
through moments where studentschoose not to say anything. And
that really was powerful for me.
And we have written some, youknow, we have an article in the
English journal on criticallistening. And you know, the
importance as ELA teachers thatwe, we don't just assume that
(12:42):
students are only thinking ofwhat is said, but to try to use
different strategies such asjournaling, or, you know, maybe
smaller group conversations toprovide brave spaces for
students to engage in criticalconversations. And so that is
something I think, in terms ofwhat we would want listeners to
(13:05):
know about our work is theimportance of all of what's not
said and what is communicatedthrough the body. I also think
something that has become moreinteresting to me, given some
shifts in the field, with afocus on mindfulness and healing
centered education, and healingcentered pedagogy is to also
(13:29):
think about the ways that we canunpack experiences and talk
about critical and difficultissues in the classroom, and
then also provide space forstudents to heal. And, you know,
I'm learning a little bit moreabout that right now, through
some of the work by some of mycolleagues and people whose work
(13:52):
I greatly admire, such as Dr.
Yolanda Celia Ruiz, Dr. AngelAcosta, some of the healing
centered education work. And soI'm really looking forward to
learning more from that work andthinking about how it plays a
part in the work of criticalconversations in ELA classrooms.
Lindsay Persohn (14:14):
Thank you both.
For that, I think you've hit onsome really important points
here. And Amy, I appreciate thatlist, to help us to attend to
these types of topics, and Ithink really get started on
something that is so big and soimportant, right? I think that
that often knowing where tobegin is a really, really
challenging topic. So Iappreciate you know, knowledge,
(14:35):
understanding criticalpedagogies having that stance of
a critical learner beingvulnerable, which I think can
often be really hard. And alsothose local moments of language,
the critical moves and talk. Sothank you so much for that kind
of concrete list to help us getstarted. And Melissa, I think
that that what you've addedhere, which in some spaces, we
(14:56):
might think of it as so Socialemotional learning or, you know,
those that thread of thinking, Ithink is, it's just so helpful
in thinking about what we dowith these conversations, right?
That they're, they're notnecessarily an end in
themselves, right? They are ameans to creating more
supportive environments areclassrooms, where all students
(15:20):
feel that they belong, and thattheir ideas and their
perspectives are valued. And,you know, I think anyone who is
in education knows that that'swhen the real learning happens,
right? When we have thoserelationships with students, and
without that, in fact, one of mystudents was very recently
reflecting on this, that, youknow, without those
(15:40):
relationships, without studentsfeeling that they are valued in
their classrooms, the learningreally doesn't occur. And so I
wanted to ask you all, if youhave any advice for teachers who
may be working in spaces, wherethese kinds of conversations
are, seriously and evensometimes legally discouraged,
How can teachers continue to notonly work to understand who
(16:06):
their students are and what theybring to their classrooms, but
how do we work to create asupportive and an open community
so that every student feels thatthey have value and a place in
our classrooms,
Amy Vetter (16:20):
I can start us off, I think, first of all, we have
to recognize the current contextthat we're in and you know,
taking note of the manydifferent bills and laws that
are being passed that arecensoring the curriculum, you
know, what we can and cannotteach, and so on. So there,
there is a lot to think about.
So I'm in North Carolina, andone of the things that my
students are experiencing thismore and more, even though, you
(16:41):
know, not as many bills havebeen passed quite yet as far as
what we can and can't teach. Butwe have been currently
experiencing more book bannings,which I think a lot of people
have been experiencing withintheir school districts. And I
had a student two years ago, ourpast Student Two years ago, she
had been a teacher, maybe five,six years. And, you know, she
was teaching a book, I can'tremember the name of the book
(17:05):
right now. But some parents didnot want it to be taught in the
class, because it did have someexplicit language in it that
they didn't agree with. And soone of the things that this
particular teacher did in orderto organize so you know, and
thinking about, okay, so you'rein this situation, as a teacher,
you believe that this kind ofcurriculum is very important,
and you want to keep doing it,you don't want to stop, what are
(17:25):
some things that you can do toorganize within your school in
your community, to have supportand a push back against it. And
so one of the things that shedid was get both parents,
students, and faculty staffsupport, right. And so she ended
up you know, in our district,I'm sure this is similar to most
(17:46):
people's district, but she hadto do a presentation at the
school board. And communitymembers were allowed to come
into the room where she wasdoing this presentation. And her
presentation, basically, was ajustification for why she should
be able to teach thiscurriculum, of course, it was
aligned with standards, it wasaligned with the current, you
know, students that she teaches,she also did an interview with
(18:07):
the author of the book, whohelped kind of, you know, help
her speak to why this book isimportant, why this topic is
important. So she put together avery knowledgeable and
compassionate and intelligentpresentation together. And she
showed that she sent it out topeople beforehand to say, you've
got to come, come support me,this is what I'm talking about.
(18:31):
And so she does great job ofnetworking, bringing people so
there were so many people therethat I couldn't like I got there
a little bit after it started.
Because, you know, I couldn'tget there on time. And I
couldn't even get in the roombecause there were so many
people there and support, whichwas great. In the end, they
voted to not ban in the book,and you know, that she luckily
(18:51):
was in a space where she hadenough support. Right. So that
was a success. I will say this,though, you know, on top of her
teaching and doing her job, shethen had to take on this huge
amount of work and stress tojustify you know why she should
be able to teach something,which I think is a lot on
(19:12):
teachers right now. We just haveto recognize it. And I don't
necessarily have answers, youknow, to that. And right now,
she has decided to take a breakfrom teaching because it was so
stressful. So I think that issomething to recognize.
Melissa Schieble (19:25):
Yeah, I think to add on to that, you know,
this is a extraordinarilydifficult time, in education.
And with the intersection of,you know, local and national
politics and school boards andthe classroom and it's a
difficult terrain to navigate.
And, you know, as Amy and I weretalking earlier, it's really
(19:46):
important, I think, for teachersto understand and think through
individuals can't take on thiswork alone. Now how do you join
a community or form a communityor engage in some form of local
activism so that you aresupported. And again, not alone
(20:10):
in this work because it is veryoverwhelming, it is very
stressful, it does lead toteacher burnout as kind of Amy's
story exemplified. And so we'vebeen doing some work some really
early work right now withlooking at how communities of
teachers and parents andcommunity members and
(20:32):
organizations are engaging inwhat micropolitan her work
refers to as local backup. Andso we think some of that work is
really important and localbackup can be anything from, you
know, small subversive acts andclassroom space, if you are in a
really constrained environment,to maybe more organizing, that's
(20:52):
happening in a community,oftentimes, this is taking place
through social media, as weknow, a lot of the organizing
related to push back and tosilencing through curriculum is
taking place through socialmedia. So there's a lot of
interesting and importantdynamics happening there. So you
know, number one, to seeksupport, and not to face this
(21:12):
alone. But then also, you know,and this is where I'm speaking
from my lens, as a parent, youknow, really engaging, you know,
how might we as communitymembers, whether or not have
professional relationships withteachers in the schools? Or
maybe we have our own childrenin the schools? How are we
supporting educators and peoplein the schools, either to do
(21:34):
this work? Or when maybe thereisn't a lot of disruption
happening in a community? Howmight we play a role. And as a
parent, for example, somethingthat any parent can do is to
call the schools call the schoolprincipal, or go to a board
meeting or write a letterarguing in for support of, you
(21:56):
know, the need for teachinghistory, from the perspective of
truth for including our LGBTQplus community members in terms
of representation in thecurriculum, for talking about
race for talking about classfor, you know, for having
difficult or criticalconversations in the classroom?
And so how might we also thinkabout ways beyond putting the
(22:19):
onus on teachers? How might weengage in some local activism to
support teachers, and I thinkthat is an area that is really
important.
Lindsay Persohn (22:32):
Those are some really great tangible, possible
solutions. Thank you for that,Melissa. And the work that I do
here in Florida is really acrossseveral school districts. And
one thing that we hear from fromthose who either school board
members or who work in schoolleadership, is that yes, come to
(22:52):
our board meetings, I thinkthere may be some folks who
don't know that those arepublic, and that you can
actually attend those and yourpresence is welcome. Right.
Particularly, I think, in a timewhen school boards are getting a
lot of pushback, really strongconservative viewpoints, that
are often exclusive of, youknow, so many of the families
(23:14):
that our schools serve. So Ithink that's a great tip, a
great idea for anyone who mightbe listening. And Amy, you know,
your your story about yourstudent, your teacher who was
successful in pushing backagainst a potential book ban, to
me, it really does have kind ofa heartbreaking ending, right,
that this was such a stressfulfight, that that teachers
(23:37):
decided to take a break fromteaching. And I'm afraid that's
happening more and more often,right? Because this is such a
heavy lift, because it is such astressful situation. These
conversations can become verypublic, and very high stakes, I
think very, very quickly. And Ithink that is part of the
difficulty. That's part of thechallenge, because as you said,
(23:59):
Being a teacher is already sucha challenging opportunity for
folks that whenever you addthese sorts of high pressure,
high stakes, publicconversations to that workload,
sometimes it does become justtoo much. So I really appreciate
those ways that Melissa, youpointed out how members of our
communities can also become thatlocal backup. So really
(24:21):
appreciate the the kind oftangible ways that we can
continue to support teachers andagain, support every student in
our schools.
Amy Vetter (24:29):
And from our work, we would encourage teachers to
like the teacher inquiry groupsare amazing. It doesn't even
have to be teachers within yourschool, you know, you could, you
know, meet via zoom withteachers, you know, across the
nation, honestly, that's a greatway to validate what you're
doing to talk about what can youdo to get support, you know,
(24:50):
coordinate with somebody at auniversity that might be able to
help so I would encourageteachers to do that as well.
Lindsay Persohn (24:56):
That's a great tip. Thank you for that, Amy.
And you're right. I mean, youknow, so At least over these
last several years, teachershave become really adept at
doing so many things online. Andwhile we know that was also a
very stressful situation,dealing with COVID, and sudden
shutdowns and online teaching, Ithink it does afford us
opportunities to connect acrossgeographical space. So that is a
(25:18):
great suggestion and a great waythat teachers can find support,
um, not only in their localcommunities, but also in a
potentially national or evenglobal kind of teacher group. So
appreciate that. So we'vetouched on a few challenges of
today's educational climate, butI want to give you all a chance
to respond to this last questiondirectly. So Amy, we'll start
(25:38):
with you, given the challengesof today's educational climate,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Amy Vetter (25:45):
Well, I want teachers to hear that their work
is important, that we validatewhat they are doing, and that we
are here to support you. Youknow, I mean, we were doing this
work, because we believe ineducation, specifically public
education, and we want to dowhat we can do to support what
(26:05):
teachers know is best for thestudents within that particular
community. Because it's sodependent on context. And so
reach out to us, you know, askus questions, if you need
support, feel free to do that inany way. That's our job. You
know, it's it takes a communityto do this work. And so don't
hesitate to ask for the helpthat you need. Because, you
(26:28):
know, we can help with researchprojects, we can help develop
curriculum, we can help put youthrough inquiry groups and
things like that. So you'redoing the best that you can do.
And I have two kids in publicschool, and they, they like
going to school every day, youknow, they do. So we see the
good things that are happeningin our classrooms, even though
(26:48):
there's a lot of negativity onthe news, you know, but when the
teachers are in there, you know,they are able to listen to the
students as much as they can.
And they are trying to reachthose needs. My my two girls go
to a school up the road, and itis a performing arts school. And
they just put on performance,and we got to go see it. You
know, it's like a 15 minute showwith like singing and stuff. But
(27:11):
I think one of the things thatstruck me about it was that I
got to walk in, I got to talkwith the teacher, I got to talk
with the parents. And then whenthey when the kids did the
performance, you could see howthey were working together to
get this thing done. And in thebest way possible, which was
really cool, because some of thekids were struggling and the
(27:33):
others were like right therehelping them. And then when they
got done with the performance,they got to come out, we got you
give them flowers and like totake pictures, and they were
hugging each other and you know,good job or whatever, you know,
which was really simple stuff.
But it's just, you could see thecommunity, you could see the
(27:54):
things that were bringing thekids together and how they were
cheering each other on you cansee the pride in the teachers
eyes and all of that. And so, Idon't know, to me, that's what
it's all about. And so yeah,we're all in this together. So
anything we can do to support,we're here.
Melissa Schieble (28:08):
Yeah, I can add to that. And I agree with
everything that Amy shared. And,and I think also, just to share
a little bit of some of whatI've been doing with pre service
teachers, and in my program, isreally thinking about preparing
and supporting all teachers howto have professional
conversations, in support oftheir students and supported
(28:32):
their students lives andsupporting their lives, in
support of democracy in supportof the work that they believe
in, and, you know, as educatorsand really starting small,
taking some agency some powerback in terms of having a
professional conversation, whenyou believe something is
(28:53):
happening, that's not right,even a totally illegal level of
something very heavy, that'shappening in your context. And
so, you know, finding small waysto take back some of that power
to have some agency, as I'vesaid, and kind of continuing to,
to network with people who arein support of the work that
(29:15):
you're doing. And also, I thinkin addition to that, is we
talked earlier about not doingthis work alone or not feeling
alone. There are a lot ofresources through the National
Council of Teachers of English,for example, the intellectual
freedom area of their website.
And so just really educatingoneself also in terms of how do
(29:35):
I go about this, and not feelalone or maybe I feel hopeless,
or maybe I feel burdened bythese pressures at my, you know,
in my community and also perhapsat the state level, and that
there are resources out therethat can help teachers sort of
navigate the different contextsthat that they're in. You know,
when we assert our agency, Ithink that makes us feel it
(29:58):
empowered, it makes us feelhopeful, it makes us feel like
at least we have spoken out.
Right. And so I think there'ssomething very empowering about
that. And even feeling that ifI, if I can only do that on a
very micro level, at least it'smaking a contribution. So that,
you know, that's something thatI, I really try to have very
(30:20):
purposeful conversations withthe pre service teachers that I
am working with and at mycollege, about, you know, how do
you have those conversations,you know, how do you make your
voice heard,
Lindsay Persohn (30:32):
I think that that makes a tense climate that
much more tense when we do feellike we are on our own. And so I
appreciate you mentioning theNCTE resources, Melissa, and we
will link that on your guestspage and in the show notes as
well for this episode, so thatlisteners will have direct
access to it. So I just want tothank you both for the work that
(30:54):
you're doing for your support ofteacher communities and these
critical conversations thatreally can help us to support
every young person in ourclassrooms. So I really
appreciate your time. And Ithank you both for sharing your
ideas. And I thank you for yourcontributions to the field of
education.
Amy Vetter (31:12):
Thanks so much for having us, Lindsay. We
appreciate it.
Melissa Schieble (31:15):
Yes, thank you, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (31:16):
Dr. Amy Vetter has developed a scholarly record
that underscores thesignificance of classroom
interactions for impacting thedevelopment of reader and
writing identities and teacheridentities, the role Critical
Conversations play ineducational settings and the
importance of learning fromyouths writing identities. She
(31:37):
teaches undergraduate courses inteaching practices and
curriculum of English andliteracy in the content area, in
graduate courses and youthliteracies teacher research and
qualitative research design. Shealso co directs a young writers
camp at University of NorthCarolina, Greensboro in the
summer. Before her career inhigher education, she taught all
(31:58):
levels of 10th and 12th GradeEnglish in Austin, Texas. Dr.
Amy Vetter is now a professor ofEnglish education in the School
of Education at the Universityof North Carolina Greensboro.
Dr. Melissa Schieble's researchfocuses on analyses of power,
privilege and oppression infiction for youth and into
classroom discourse. She teachesgraduate and undergraduate
(32:22):
courses in literacy, young adultliterature, diversity and
qualitative researchmethodologies. In addition to
her work with Amy and a thirdscholar Kahdeidra Monet Martin,
she has published severalarticles and book chapters that
promote laboratory practices inEnglish language arts and
literacy through teaching ofliterature. Dr. Schieble was
(32:44):
formerly an English teacher atthe middle and high school
level. Melissa recently servedas a Hunter College racial
equity fellow. Dr. MelissaShibley is a professor of
English education at HunterCollege and urban education at
the Graduate Center of the CityUniversity of New York. To
continue this conversation. Youcan contact Amy Vetter at a m
(33:07):
vetter@gmail.com. That's a mvetter@gmail.com. And you can
contact Melissa Scheible atscheible.melissa@gmail.com
That's SCHIEBL e dot m e l i ssa@gmail.com. For the good of
(33:35):
all students classroom caffeineaims to energize education
research and practice. If thisshow provides you with things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
(33:56):
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(34:19):
show. You could also leave us avoice message or a text message
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raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences. In this episode,
doctors Amy Vetter, and MelissaShible talk to us about teacher
agency, community and criticalconversations. A third scholar
Kahdeidre Monet Martin, who willbe an assistant professor at
Vassar College next year is alsoinvolved in their recent
(00:53):
research. Amy is known for herwork and understanding how
classroom interactions impactdeveloping reader and writer
identities, as well as teacheridentities, the role of critical
conversations and educationalsettings, and the importance of
learning from the writingidentities of young people.
Melissa is known for her work onanalyses of power, privilege and
(01:16):
oppression in fiction for youthand in classroom discourse.
Together with Kahdeidre theyhave published multiple research
articles on the topic ofcritical classroom
conversations, as well as thebook classroom talk for social
change critical conversations inEnglish language arts, published
in 2020 by teachers collegepress. For more information
(01:38):
about our guests, stay tuned tothe end of this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice.
Amy and Melissa, thank you forjoining me. Welcome to the show.
Unknown (01:58):
Thanks for having us.
Lindsay Persohn (02:01):
So Melissa, we'll start with you for this
first question. From your ownexperiences and education. Will
you share with us one or twomoments that inform your
thinking now?
Melissa Schieble (02:12):
Yeah, thanks, Lindsay. I think this is a
really important question forconsidering the importance of
this work. And I wouldn't say Ihave one or two isolated moments
or experiences, but really asort of lifespan of experiences
that have accumulated and haveled me to our research. And I
(02:34):
think that really starts with myown experiences as a young
person. I'm from a small,primarily white, middle class
town in the Midwest, UnitedStates. And I attended a very
traditional school, my teacherslooked like me, my classmates
looked like me, the way I spokein my home, match the language
(02:56):
expectations of my school. Andso because of that, I didn't
have a lot of tools as a youngperson to really understand my
power and positioning and mysocial world, I didn't have a
lot of tools to help me unpacksome of the privileges that I
had in relationship to my mywhiteness and relationship to my
class. And I also over time, asa young person, especially
(03:21):
moving into young adulthood,really internalized a lot of
sexism, a lot of the messagesabout gender that were present
in my social world as a child,and because of that, you know,
as a as an English major incollege, and, you know, moving
into being an ELA teacher, and ateacher, educator and
researcher, I find thatliterature is really important
(03:44):
catalyst for providing thosetools. And I'm so grateful that
I learned those tools through mycollege and educational
experiences and consistently tryto learn and continuously learn
and unlearn and continuouslylearn and, you know, strive for
that humility, with myknowledge. And it really has
(04:06):
shaped the trajectory of myresearch of my scholarship in
not only supporting educators todevelop curriculum, make book
selections and develop questionsto talk with kids about in
classrooms that really helpcritically unpack students,
social identities, privileges,areas where they feel they are
(04:29):
marked marginalized or oppressedin society, and then also to
provide spaces in ELAclassrooms, for the ways that
those conversations are alsoliberating the ways that they
can provide pathways tosolidarity and in help students
(04:49):
enact their own agency in theirsocial worlds. And so I would
say that, that sort of lifespanexperience is really what has
led me to this work.
Lindsay Persohn (04:59):
Thank you. For that, Melissa, and I'll I'll
throw the same question over toAmy, from your own experiences
and education, will you sharewith us one or two moments that
inform your thinking now?
Amy Vetter (05:10):
Thanks, Lindsay, that was listening to you talk,
Melissa was thinking about thesedinner table conversations and
why they're so important. And Igrew up in Louisiana, and we had
a lot of dinner tableconversations about like
politics and, you know,questioning these things. But
that mainly happened at thedinner table, unlike when we
went outside of sort of thatplace, those conversations were
(05:30):
different because I was in acommunity where people believed
very differently from the valuesand beliefs of my family. And so
that probably is one of thereasons why I'm so interested in
these critical conversations,because I wanted to learn more
about how can you have dialoguethat you know, is, you know,
productive? That's the rightword or not, you know, with
people who believe verydifferently from you. How do you
(05:51):
get into that? And how can youhelp others get into that? But
you know, in thinking about aspecific educational experience,
you know, Melissa, and I reallystarted working together we met
at LRA had, I don't know, over10 years ago, I think, and we
were very interested and usingdiscourse analysis as a tool
(06:12):
with our pre service teachers.
And so we were both, you know,teaching methods classes, and we
were both doing some kind oflike video analysis, where we
would ask our students to videorecord some of the lessons that
they were doing, and then wewould ask them to transcribe it.
And then we turn this into aresearch project, we were asking
them, like, what kind of teacherdo you want to be? Now let's
(06:34):
look at these transcripts acrosstime and see if you've actually
been able to enact thisfacilitator identity or whatever
it is that they said. And wefound that to be a very useful
reflective tool for pre serviceteachers over time, they can
really figure out alright, Ineed to learn how to enact this
and get better at it. Superuseful. But then we discovered
(06:55):
that we were also asking themquestions about okay, well, how
how does your race? How doesyour class how does your sexual
orientation and so on? How doesall of those things shaped what
you were doing in your classroomand the kind of teacher you want
to be? And we were gettingsilence a lot of the times or
very surface level answers, andboth Melissa and I, you know,
(07:17):
had conversations and wethought, okay, well, what can we
do as teachers to better supportour students to engage in these
critical conversations. And whatthat meant for us, was really
figuring out we had to do a lotof work, we had to do a lot of,
oh, wow, we need to do our ownreflection, we need to practice
this ourselves in order tobecome better at it. And so I
(07:38):
think for me, you know, thatthat was sort of the beginning
of this journey, and to studyingcritical conversations and
classrooms, all levels ofclassrooms. So
Lindsay Persohn (07:51):
I think something you just said, Amy, is
such an important part ofreflective practice. And I think
it's important to show thatthat's something that never
leaves us, even if we leaveclassroom practice, right, that
idea of when our students havedifficulty, how do we in fact,
support them and guide them?
Through that process? Sometimesit is doing it ourselves, right,
and reflecting on what thatactually sounds like, what that
(08:11):
looks like? It's a greatreminder. Thank you. And so Amy,
I'm also going to throw thissecond question to you, what do
you want listeners to know aboutyour work?
Amy Vetter (08:22):
Yeah, so I mean, it's pretty much connected with
what I was just talking aboutthat Melissa And I, you know,
worked really hard for manyyears, we had a pilot study, and
then another two years studywith an inquiry group of
teachers that were focused oncritical conversations. And so
we met once a month, we recordedthe conversations, they would
transcribe conversations andwhat we mean the way we define
(08:44):
critical conversations areconversations about power and
privilege within a classroom.
And because we're literacyteachers, that's what we focus
on. And a lot of thoseconversations are around pieces
of literature. Because, youknow, that makes sense. We're
middle high school Englishteachers. So but yeah, we met
monthly, we had them transcribethose conversations. And then we
asked, you know, questions tohelp them dig in into those
(09:07):
transcripts. We had them readarticles to help them unpack
what was going on. And, youknow, we did a pilot study, and
then I said, two years, and Iwas like, wow, after you
analyzing all that data, we werelike, oh, there are so many
things we could have done evenbetter. As all as all research
goes. And we're continuing downpack that. But one of the things
(09:29):
from the book that I think wouldbe useful for teachers, all
educators, really, you know, inK through 12, classrooms,
teacher, educators,administrators, is if you really
want to engage in this work offostering critical
conversations, I came up withfive things. One of them is
having knowledge about power andprivilege. You know, that idea
(09:51):
of what what is critical andwhat does that mean? And so that
means doing a lot of reading andtalking about it. Understanding
what critical pedagogies are sohaving knowledge about it, but
then also having some practice,you know, like some, you know,
past practice and trying it outin the classroom, taking on this
critical learner stance, andthat is very much connected with
reflecting critically. But italso really just means being
(10:15):
open to things that you don'tknow being open to hearing other
perspectives. So onvulnerability, we really found
that we all needed to makeourselves really vulnerable and
tell stories about maybe when weweren't doing things well or
something in the past, you know,things like that. And we tried
to model that as much as wecould with the teachers. And
then finally, critical talkingwas because we are at in our
(10:38):
hearts, we are discourseanalysts, we love looking,
that's why Melissa and I lovedoing work together because we
love digging into these localmoments of language and then
making connections to, you know,what does that mean for the
macro and understanding thesebigger questions about the
world. And so we broke down somecritical talk moves that
teachers might be able to enactthat might help students disrupt
(10:59):
some assumptions that they'remaking about something or help
them become vulnerable or so on.
We don't like to think of themas like conversation starters,
like everyone needs to starttheir sentence with that. But
it's more like, you know, howcan you disrupt a student who is
saying something, but do it andmaybe a form of a question or do
(11:21):
it in the form of a story orsomething that can really open
up more perspectives or inviteother people into the mix. So
that's what I hope that peoplewill take away from from the
work that we have been doing.
Melissa Schieble (11:34):
Yeah, I can add on to that. Thank you, Amy.
That was a really good sort ofsummary of some of that work
we've been doing together. Andand I think, in addition to what
we wrote about in the book aresome places that we really felt
still intrigued us, or weresurprising about the work. So
for me, something in particularis when we began the project, we
(11:55):
really focused on the talk, whatwas said, how the questions were
formed, what the dialogue lookedlike. And I think having, you
know, engaged in this projectnow, for many years, something I
learned was that so much of themessaging that happens in what
we might call criticalconversations, or difficult
conversations, or courageousconversations, oftentimes takes
(12:18):
place through body language,through nonverbal interactions
through moments where studentschoose not to say anything. And
that really was powerful for me.
And we have written some, youknow, we have an article in the
English journal on criticallistening. And you know, the
importance as ELA teachers thatwe, we don't just assume that
(12:42):
students are only thinking ofwhat is said, but to try to use
different strategies such asjournaling, or, you know, maybe
smaller group conversations toprovide brave spaces for
students to engage in criticalconversations. And so that is
something I think, in terms ofwhat we would want listeners to
(13:05):
know about our work is theimportance of all of what's not
said and what is communicatedthrough the body. I also think
something that has become moreinteresting to me, given some
shifts in the field, with afocus on mindfulness and healing
centered education, and healingcentered pedagogy is to also
(13:29):
think about the ways that we canunpack experiences and talk
about critical and difficultissues in the classroom, and
then also provide space forstudents to heal. And, you know,
I'm learning a little bit moreabout that right now, through
some of the work by some of mycolleagues and people whose work
(13:52):
I greatly admire, such as Dr.
Yolanda Celia Ruiz, Dr. AngelAcosta, some of the healing
centered education work. And soI'm really looking forward to
learning more from that work andthinking about how it plays a
part in the work of criticalconversations in ELA classrooms.
Lindsay Persohn (14:14):
Thank you both.
For that, I think you've hit onsome really important points
here. And Amy, I appreciate thatlist, to help us to attend to
these types of topics, and Ithink really get started on
something that is so big and soimportant, right? I think that
that often knowing where tobegin is a really, really
challenging topic. So Iappreciate you know, knowledge,
(14:35):
understanding criticalpedagogies having that stance of
a critical learner beingvulnerable, which I think can
often be really hard. And alsothose local moments of language,
the critical moves and talk. Sothank you so much for that kind
of concrete list to help us getstarted. And Melissa, I think
that that what you've addedhere, which in some spaces, we
(14:56):
might think of it as so Socialemotional learning or, you know,
those that thread of thinking, Ithink is, it's just so helpful
in thinking about what we dowith these conversations, right?
That they're, they're notnecessarily an end in
themselves, right? They are ameans to creating more
supportive environments areclassrooms, where all students
(15:20):
feel that they belong, and thattheir ideas and their
perspectives are valued. And,you know, I think anyone who is
in education knows that that'swhen the real learning happens,
right? When we have thoserelationships with students, and
without that, in fact, one of mystudents was very recently
reflecting on this, that, youknow, without those
(15:40):
relationships, without studentsfeeling that they are valued in
their classrooms, the learningreally doesn't occur. And so I
wanted to ask you all, if youhave any advice for teachers who
may be working in spaces, wherethese kinds of conversations
are, seriously and evensometimes legally discouraged,
How can teachers continue to notonly work to understand who
(16:06):
their students are and what theybring to their classrooms, but
how do we work to create asupportive and an open community
so that every student feels thatthey have value and a place in
our classrooms,
Amy Vetter (16:20):
I can start us off, I think, first of all, we have
to recognize the current contextthat we're in and you know,
taking note of the manydifferent bills and laws that
are being passed that arecensoring the curriculum, you
know, what we can and cannotteach, and so on. So there,
there is a lot to think about.
So I'm in North Carolina, andone of the things that my
students are experiencing thismore and more, even though, you
(16:41):
know, not as many bills havebeen passed quite yet as far as
what we can and can't teach. Butwe have been currently
experiencing more book bannings,which I think a lot of people
have been experiencing withintheir school districts. And I
had a student two years ago, ourpast Student Two years ago, she
had been a teacher, maybe five,six years. And, you know, she
was teaching a book, I can'tremember the name of the book
(17:05):
right now. But some parents didnot want it to be taught in the
class, because it did have someexplicit language in it that
they didn't agree with. And soone of the things that this
particular teacher did in orderto organize so you know, and
thinking about, okay, so you'rein this situation, as a teacher,
you believe that this kind ofcurriculum is very important,
and you want to keep doing it,you don't want to stop, what are
(17:25):
some things that you can do toorganize within your school in
your community, to have supportand a push back against it. And
so one of the things that shedid was get both parents,
students, and faculty staffsupport, right. And so she ended
up you know, in our district,I'm sure this is similar to most
(17:46):
people's district, but she hadto do a presentation at the
school board. And communitymembers were allowed to come
into the room where she wasdoing this presentation. And her
presentation, basically, was ajustification for why she should
be able to teach thiscurriculum, of course, it was
aligned with standards, it wasaligned with the current, you
know, students that she teaches,she also did an interview with
(18:07):
the author of the book, whohelped kind of, you know, help
her speak to why this book isimportant, why this topic is
important. So she put together avery knowledgeable and
compassionate and intelligentpresentation together. And she
showed that she sent it out topeople beforehand to say, you've
got to come, come support me,this is what I'm talking about.
(18:31):
And so she does great job ofnetworking, bringing people so
there were so many people therethat I couldn't like I got there
a little bit after it started.
Because, you know, I couldn'tget there on time. And I
couldn't even get in the roombecause there were so many
people there and support, whichwas great. In the end, they
voted to not ban in the book,and you know, that she luckily
(18:51):
was in a space where she hadenough support. Right. So that
was a success. I will say this,though, you know, on top of her
teaching and doing her job, shethen had to take on this huge
amount of work and stress tojustify you know why she should
be able to teach something,which I think is a lot on
(19:12):
teachers right now. We just haveto recognize it. And I don't
necessarily have answers, youknow, to that. And right now,
she has decided to take a breakfrom teaching because it was so
stressful. So I think that issomething to recognize.
Melissa Schieble (19:25):
Yeah, I think to add on to that, you know,
this is a extraordinarilydifficult time, in education.
And with the intersection of,you know, local and national
politics and school boards andthe classroom and it's a
difficult terrain to navigate.
And, you know, as Amy and I weretalking earlier, it's really
(19:46):
important, I think, for teachersto understand and think through
individuals can't take on thiswork alone. Now how do you join
a community or form a communityor engage in some form of local
activism so that you aresupported. And again, not alone
(20:10):
in this work because it is veryoverwhelming, it is very
stressful, it does lead toteacher burnout as kind of Amy's
story exemplified. And so we'vebeen doing some work some really
early work right now withlooking at how communities of
teachers and parents andcommunity members and
(20:32):
organizations are engaging inwhat micropolitan her work
refers to as local backup. Andso we think some of that work is
really important and localbackup can be anything from, you
know, small subversive acts andclassroom space, if you are in a
really constrained environment,to maybe more organizing, that's
(20:52):
happening in a community,oftentimes, this is taking place
through social media, as weknow, a lot of the organizing
related to push back and tosilencing through curriculum is
taking place through socialmedia. So there's a lot of
interesting and importantdynamics happening there. So you
know, number one, to seeksupport, and not to face this
(21:12):
alone. But then also, you know,and this is where I'm speaking
from my lens, as a parent, youknow, really engaging, you know,
how might we as communitymembers, whether or not have
professional relationships withteachers in the schools? Or
maybe we have our own childrenin the schools? How are we
supporting educators and peoplein the schools, either to do
(21:34):
this work? Or when maybe thereisn't a lot of disruption
happening in a community? Howmight we play a role. And as a
parent, for example, somethingthat any parent can do is to
call the schools call the schoolprincipal, or go to a board
meeting or write a letterarguing in for support of, you
(21:56):
know, the need for teachinghistory, from the perspective of
truth for including our LGBTQplus community members in terms
of representation in thecurriculum, for talking about
race for talking about classfor, you know, for having
difficult or criticalconversations in the classroom?
And so how might we also thinkabout ways beyond putting the
(22:19):
onus on teachers? How might weengage in some local activism to
support teachers, and I thinkthat is an area that is really
important.
Lindsay Persohn (22:32):
Those are some really great tangible, possible
solutions. Thank you for that,Melissa. And the work that I do
here in Florida is really acrossseveral school districts. And
one thing that we hear from fromthose who either school board
members or who work in schoolleadership, is that yes, come to
(22:52):
our board meetings, I thinkthere may be some folks who
don't know that those arepublic, and that you can
actually attend those and yourpresence is welcome. Right.
Particularly, I think, in a timewhen school boards are getting a
lot of pushback, really strongconservative viewpoints, that
are often exclusive of, youknow, so many of the families
(23:14):
that our schools serve. So Ithink that's a great tip, a
great idea for anyone who mightbe listening. And Amy, you know,
your your story about yourstudent, your teacher who was
successful in pushing backagainst a potential book ban, to
me, it really does have kind ofa heartbreaking ending, right,
that this was such a stressfulfight, that that teachers
(23:37):
decided to take a break fromteaching. And I'm afraid that's
happening more and more often,right? Because this is such a
heavy lift, because it is such astressful situation. These
conversations can become verypublic, and very high stakes, I
think very, very quickly. And Ithink that is part of the
difficulty. That's part of thechallenge, because as you said,
(23:59):
Being a teacher is already sucha challenging opportunity for
folks that whenever you addthese sorts of high pressure,
high stakes, publicconversations to that workload,
sometimes it does become justtoo much. So I really appreciate
those ways that Melissa, youpointed out how members of our
communities can also become thatlocal backup. So really
(24:21):
appreciate the the kind oftangible ways that we can
continue to support teachers andagain, support every student in
our schools.
Amy Vetter (24:29):
And from our work, we would encourage teachers to
like the teacher inquiry groupsare amazing. It doesn't even
have to be teachers within yourschool, you know, you could, you
know, meet via zoom withteachers, you know, across the
nation, honestly, that's a greatway to validate what you're
doing to talk about what can youdo to get support, you know,
(24:50):
coordinate with somebody at auniversity that might be able to
help so I would encourageteachers to do that as well.
Lindsay Persohn (24:56):
That's a great tip. Thank you for that, Amy.
And you're right. I mean, youknow, so At least over these
last several years, teachershave become really adept at
doing so many things online. Andwhile we know that was also a
very stressful situation,dealing with COVID, and sudden
shutdowns and online teaching, Ithink it does afford us
opportunities to connect acrossgeographical space. So that is a
(25:18):
great suggestion and a great waythat teachers can find support,
um, not only in their localcommunities, but also in a
potentially national or evenglobal kind of teacher group. So
appreciate that. So we'vetouched on a few challenges of
today's educational climate, butI want to give you all a chance
to respond to this last questiondirectly. So Amy, we'll start
(25:38):
with you, given the challengesof today's educational climate,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Amy Vetter (25:45):
Well, I want teachers to hear that their work
is important, that we validatewhat they are doing, and that we
are here to support you. Youknow, I mean, we were doing this
work, because we believe ineducation, specifically public
education, and we want to dowhat we can do to support what
(26:05):
teachers know is best for thestudents within that particular
community. Because it's sodependent on context. And so
reach out to us, you know, askus questions, if you need
support, feel free to do that inany way. That's our job. You
know, it's it takes a communityto do this work. And so don't
hesitate to ask for the helpthat you need. Because, you
(26:28):
know, we can help with researchprojects, we can help develop
curriculum, we can help put youthrough inquiry groups and
things like that. So you'redoing the best that you can do.
And I have two kids in publicschool, and they, they like
going to school every day, youknow, they do. So we see the
good things that are happeningin our classrooms, even though
(26:48):
there's a lot of negativity onthe news, you know, but when the
teachers are in there, you know,they are able to listen to the
students as much as they can.
And they are trying to reachthose needs. My my two girls go
to a school up the road, and itis a performing arts school. And
they just put on performance,and we got to go see it. You
know, it's like a 15 minute showwith like singing and stuff. But
(27:11):
I think one of the things thatstruck me about it was that I
got to walk in, I got to talkwith the teacher, I got to talk
with the parents. And then whenthey when the kids did the
performance, you could see howthey were working together to
get this thing done. And in thebest way possible, which was
really cool, because some of thekids were struggling and the
(27:33):
others were like right therehelping them. And then when they
got done with the performance,they got to come out, we got you
give them flowers and like totake pictures, and they were
hugging each other and you know,good job or whatever, you know,
which was really simple stuff.
But it's just, you could see thecommunity, you could see the
(27:54):
things that were bringing thekids together and how they were
cheering each other on you cansee the pride in the teachers
eyes and all of that. And so, Idon't know, to me, that's what
it's all about. And so yeah,we're all in this together. So
anything we can do to support,we're here.
Melissa Schieble (28:08):
Yeah, I can add to that. And I agree with
everything that Amy shared. And,and I think also, just to share
a little bit of some of whatI've been doing with pre service
teachers, and in my program, isreally thinking about preparing
and supporting all teachers howto have professional
conversations, in support oftheir students and supported
(28:32):
their students lives andsupporting their lives, in
support of democracy in supportof the work that they believe
in, and, you know, as educatorsand really starting small,
taking some agency some powerback in terms of having a
professional conversation, whenyou believe something is
(28:53):
happening, that's not right,even a totally illegal level of
something very heavy, that'shappening in your context. And
so, you know, finding small waysto take back some of that power
to have some agency, as I'vesaid, and kind of continuing to,
to network with people who arein support of the work that
(29:15):
you're doing. And also, I thinkin addition to that, is we
talked earlier about not doingthis work alone or not feeling
alone. There are a lot ofresources through the National
Council of Teachers of English,for example, the intellectual
freedom area of their website.
And so just really educatingoneself also in terms of how do
(29:35):
I go about this, and not feelalone or maybe I feel hopeless,
or maybe I feel burdened bythese pressures at my, you know,
in my community and also perhapsat the state level, and that
there are resources out therethat can help teachers sort of
navigate the different contextsthat that they're in. You know,
when we assert our agency, Ithink that makes us feel it
(29:58):
empowered, it makes us feelhopeful, it makes us feel like
at least we have spoken out.
Right. And so I think there'ssomething very empowering about
that. And even feeling that ifI, if I can only do that on a
very micro level, at least it'smaking a contribution. So that,
you know, that's something thatI, I really try to have very
(30:20):
purposeful conversations withthe pre service teachers that I
am working with and at mycollege, about, you know, how do
you have those conversations,you know, how do you make your
voice heard,
Lindsay Persohn (30:32):
I think that that makes a tense climate that
much more tense when we do feellike we are on our own. And so I
appreciate you mentioning theNCTE resources, Melissa, and we
will link that on your guestspage and in the show notes as
well for this episode, so thatlisteners will have direct
access to it. So I just want tothank you both for the work that
(30:54):
you're doing for your support ofteacher communities and these
critical conversations thatreally can help us to support
every young person in ourclassrooms. So I really
appreciate your time. And Ithank you both for sharing your
ideas. And I thank you for yourcontributions to the field of
education.
Amy Vetter (31:12):
Thanks so much for having us, Lindsay. We
appreciate it.
Melissa Schieble (31:15):
Yes, thank you, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (31:16):
Dr. Amy Vetter has developed a scholarly record
that underscores thesignificance of classroom
interactions for impacting thedevelopment of reader and
writing identities and teacheridentities, the role Critical
Conversations play ineducational settings and the
importance of learning fromyouths writing identities. She
(31:37):
teaches undergraduate courses inteaching practices and
curriculum of English andliteracy in the content area, in
graduate courses and youthliteracies teacher research and
qualitative research design. Shealso co directs a young writers
camp at University of NorthCarolina, Greensboro in the
summer. Before her career inhigher education, she taught all
(31:58):
levels of 10th and 12th GradeEnglish in Austin, Texas. Dr.
Amy Vetter is now a professor ofEnglish education in the School
of Education at the Universityof North Carolina Greensboro.
Dr. Melissa Schieble's researchfocuses on analyses of power,
privilege and oppression infiction for youth and into
classroom discourse. She teachesgraduate and undergraduate
(32:22):
courses in literacy, young adultliterature, diversity and
qualitative researchmethodologies. In addition to
her work with Amy and a thirdscholar Kahdeidra Monet Martin,
she has published severalarticles and book chapters that
promote laboratory practices inEnglish language arts and
literacy through teaching ofliterature. Dr. Schieble was
(32:44):
formerly an English teacher atthe middle and high school
level. Melissa recently servedas a Hunter College racial
equity fellow. Dr. MelissaShibley is a professor of
English education at HunterCollege and urban education at
the Graduate Center of the CityUniversity of New York. To
continue this conversation. Youcan contact Amy Vetter at a m
(33:07):
vetter@gmail.com. That's a mvetter@gmail.com. And you can
contact Melissa Scheible atscheible.melissa@gmail.com
That's SCHIEBL e dot m e l i ssa@gmail.com. For the good of
(33:35):
all students classroom caffeineaims to energize education
research and practice. If thisshow provides you with things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
(33:56):
WWW dot classroom caffeine.comwhere you can learn more about
each guest. Find transcripts formany episodes, explore episode
topics using our tagging featuresupport podcast research through
our survey, request and episodetopic or a potential guest or
share your own questions that wemight respond to through the
(34:19):
show. You could also leave us avoice message or a text message
at 1-941-212-0949. We would loveto hear from you. As always, I
raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
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