January 17, 2023 • 27 mins
Dr. Cynthia Brock talks to us about learning from our histories, considering our futures, the central role of listening, and the situatedness of our contexts. Cindy is known for her work in the area of opportunities-for-learning literacy. Specifically, her studies have explored children’s learning, pre- and in-service teachers’ learning in university classrooms and in professional development contexts, and her and her colleagues’ learning. Dr. Brock is a professor at the University of Wyoming where she holds the Wyoming Excellence in Higher Education Endowed Chair in Elementary Literacy Education.
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Jan. 17). A conversation with Cynthia Brock. (Season 3, No. 16) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/96A5-964F-97E6-CFE8-6557-4
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. CynthiaBrock talks to us about learning
from our histories, consideringour futures, the central role of
listening, and the situatednessof our contexts, Cindy is known
for her work in the area ofopportunities for learning
(00:53):
literacy. Specifically, herstudies have explored children's
learning, pre and in serviceteachers learning in university
classrooms and in professionaldevelopment contexts. And her
and her colleagues learning. Dr.
Brock is a professor at theUniversity of Wyoming where she
holds the Wyoming excellence inhigher education endowed chair
in elementary literacyeducation. For more information
(01:15):
about our guest, stay tuned tothe end of this episode. So pour
a cup of your favorite drink.
And join me your host, LindsayPersohn. For classroom caffeine
research to energize yourteaching practice.
Cindy, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Cynthia Brock (01:36):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (01:38):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now?
Cynthia Brock (01:46):
Yeah, that's a great question, Lindsay. Thank
you for asking that. One of theexperiences I'd like to share
happened in 1987. And in 1987, Iwas sitting in the office of an
assistant superintendent ofinstruction in a school district
in Michigan. And I was beinginterviewed for a sixth grade
position. And during theinterview process, I was telling
the Assistant Superintendentabout a teaching position that I
(02:09):
just had the year before that,where I was working in as a
matter of fact, Tallahassee,Florida, and I was teaching high
school math, because becausethat was my undergrad focus. And
I was telling him that theyhired me, even though I had been
an elementary teacher, theyhired me to teach what was
called something like compEdmath. And essentially, it was
for students who needed to passa competency exam in mathematics
(02:34):
that was required for graduationin Florida. And I think you
would know about that as being aFloridian. And so when I was
talking to the assistantsuperintendent, I spoke to him
with pride in my voice saying, Iwas really happy that 80% of my
students passed. And I wastelling him how thrilled I was
and he says, What happened tothe other 20%? That took me
(02:54):
aback, and I stopped, and Ithought, he's exactly right.
Rather than thinking aboutmyself as the teacher and what
I'd done, right, what I neededto be thinking about was the
students that I hadn't reachedand what I needed to do
differently to reach thosestudents. That was a powerful
learning experience for me. Sothat's one example. And I think
you said I could give you two.
And another really powerfulexample for me, was when I
(03:17):
worked with a fifth grade Hmongchild whose name was Deng for my
dissertation research, and I hadbeen an elementary teacher as
well as a high school mathteacher, prior to going back to
school to earn my doctorate. Andwhat I was particularly
interested in is what happenswhen you are an English speaking
which I am an English speakingteacher, and you are working
(03:41):
with kids who come to yourclassroom and speak English as
an additional language. And whatI wanted to get a sense of is
how do they how do children whoare English learners come into
classrooms and make sense ofwhat's going on in the
classroom? And so that's when Istarted studying literacy
learning opportunities, and myfocus for that research was
Dengs literacy learningopportunities. And I was
(04:03):
fortunate that I had a reallypowerful dissertation committee
including people like TaffyRaphael and Jim Gavelek and
Susan Florio-Ruane, I wasstruggling to try to understand
how Deng was experiencing hisclassroom literacy lessons. And
Susan Flurio-Wayne recommendedtrying something called a
viewing session. And that comesfrom the work of Fred Erickson
(04:25):
and Jeff Schultz. And what waspowerful about using viewing
sessions with Deng isessentially just what we would
do is I would video record Dengparticipating in his classroom
literacy lessons. Then, becausehis first languages were Hmong,
LAO and Thai. In that order. Ihad to enlist the help of an
older person who could speakolder student who could speak
(04:45):
English and Hmong fluently, andwe'd have to translate and so
forth. And what was fascinatingto me, was to learn from Deng
during those viewing sessionswhere he would watch himself
participating in his classroomliteracy lessons, and he was in
control of the remote. And hewould stop the lesson when he
had questions, confusions and soforth. And it was Deng was an
amazing teacher, because hehelped me understand from his
(05:07):
perspective, what it was like tobe in a series of literacy
lessons, essentially. So thoseare probably two of the most
powerful learning experiencesthat I can think of.
Lindsay Persohn (05:19):
I can certainly understand that initial moment
you shared, you know, the thesense of new teacher pride that
80% of your kids had passed thattest. But I mean, what a
critical question, right? WhatWhat about the other 20%. And I
think that really helps me tothink about the experience that
you described with Deng. And Ican only imagine how powerful it
(05:41):
was to sit with him as he sortof reviewed and recapped what
those lessons were like for him,because I would venture to say
that there aren't many teacherswho have an opportunity like
that, to see their own workthrough the eyes of their
students, and just how powerfulthat could be. The other thing
that I was really struck by inyour example, there is how Deng
(06:05):
would likely be framed and howhis his literacy understandings
would likely be framed in manyschools, particularly around the
US at some sort of deficit,right when he or he comes to
school with with knowledge ofthree other languages. And I
think so often in schools, wesay, but he doesn't know
English, right? Like, like, thatis the only thing that really
(06:27):
matters. And so we know it isthe language of power in many
places. But you know, in mymind, that shouldn't be to the
exclusion or to the detriment ofany other kind of literacy
assets that a student might comewith. So I'm really hoping that
you will help us to understandand kind of unpack those
experiences a bit more inresponse to this next question,
(06:47):
Cindy, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Cynthia Brock (06:51):
So I guess the main thing is that my colleagues
and I have actually startedstudying this notion of
opportunities to learn literacy,way back in the mid mid 90s. And
here, I was drawing on the workof the Santa Barbara classroom
discourse, community group,Judith green, and Carol Dixon
and her colleagues. And acrosstime since then, that's been the
(07:13):
focus of my scholarship. Andpart of what I've done, and I
know you can't see this in apodcast, but my colleagues and I
have, across time have created amodel that we use to help us
think about the pieces that needto be in place to do the very
best job we can as educators tofoster the literacy learning of
children, especially childrenfrom diverse linguistic,
(07:34):
cultural and racial backgrounds.
And so I guess one of the thingsthat I that I would like
listeners to know about the workthat my colleagues and I have
done is that literacy iscrucial. Understanding literacy,
the components of literacy, howliteracy works, absolutely
crucial. And it's one crucialcomponent of overall thinking
about how to foster kidsliteracy learning opportunities.
(07:55):
And so my colleagues and I havea model with a triangle in the
middle. And the vertices includethe teacher with respect to what
the teacher does in the context,the student with respect to what
the student brings to thecontext and what the student
does. And then, of course,literacy, which is the area that
we focus on in our in our work,that triangle is situated in a
circle that focuses oncommunities of practice. And
(08:18):
that circle, the way we set ourmodel up as the circle includes
a past and all the components ofthe model, have histories,
literacy evolves across time, weas teachers evolve and change
across time our students do. Andso there's so the past shapes,
what happens in immediatecontext is we're trying to
understand the waiting to fosterthe most powerful literacy
(08:40):
learning opportunities. In oneof our studies, we then added
the notion of prolepses to themodel, this notion of projecting
the future into the present, andhow does that relate what we
what it is that we do as we workwith children and how we work
with them with respect to theirliteracy learning. So I guess
one of the main things I'd liketo emphasize is just that the
complexity of all those piecesthat matter when we're thinking
(09:02):
about how we can do the verybest job to foster kids literacy
learning opportunities,
Lindsay Persohn (09:08):
I have a vision in my mind of what that model
looks like. And certainly, wewill post an image of that on
your guests page, and also inthe show notes, so that
listeners are able to see it.
But you know, so much of whatyou're saying, Cindy, it reminds
me of how important it is for usto understand the past of the
work that we're doing. And youknow, certainly past guests on
(09:31):
the show have talked a bit aboutyou know, what that might look
like and some practicalapplications for how we might
think about, you know, thehistory of how literacy
instruction is delivered inschools and how that impacts our
present because I know even frommy very first years of teaching,
I heard experienced teacherstalk about the swinging
pendulum, right that everythingcomes back and I think that
(09:54):
there there are mistakes, if youwill an instruction that we, we
shall be doomed to repeat if wedon't understand what they were
and what lessons were learnedfrom them. And so I'm wondering
if there, there might beanything else here that you
could share with listeners abouthow we can work to be informed
by the past of the instructionthat we're giving or, or by the
(10:16):
past of the work that we'redoing as educators?
Cynthia Brock (10:22):
That's Lindsay, that's important. That's a
really wonderful question. And Idon't know that there are any
easy answers to that it strikesme that one of the best things
we can do is to continue toeducate ourselves. And I know
when I'm thinking about literacyin the history of literacy,
there's some there's somewonderful work out there that a
lot of us have probably read.
And that a new book that I'mparticularly impressed with is
(10:43):
the new book by Robert Tierneyand David Pearson, on the
history of literacy. And theykind of talked about the history
in terms of waves. And I just, Ijust find that very powerful.
And, and it strikes me thatknowing that history, for all of
us, as educators, for teachers,for researchers, it matters,
because what we're experiencingnow is shaped and informed by
(11:05):
the history of the field, by thesocial political context, you
know, that we that we live inhere in the US. And so and so
it's, there's a lot to what'shappening now, it's not just it
didn't just happen in themoment, it comes from somewhere.
Lindsay Persohn (11:21):
Right? I think that's so important. And in
fact, Rob and David are bothpast guests of classroom
caffeine, and in particular, RobTierney sort of traces this
history of, of literacyinstruction for us, I often
describe it as a 20,000 footview of literacy, not just us
based, but he also talks a bitabout literacy instruction
(11:42):
around the world. And that's agreat connection for listeners,
and certainly a wonderful bookto check out if anyone has not.
But I know that Rob alsomentioned a website where
there's quite a bit of thatinformation as well. So that can
be found on his guests page andhis show notes. So thank you for
that. Because I, I think thatthat sometimes this idea of what
(12:04):
has come before us, it'ssometimes can feel like so much
that it is it's difficult toknow where to begin. So
certainly having resources likethat can be just so helpful in
navigating. So what about thisnotion of prolepses? And how we
sort of project what mighthappen in the future? That
reminds me, of course ofconversations I've had for the
(12:26):
show as well, and certainlythings I've read and and in
particular, this idea that we'repreparing kids, for a future we
don't yet know, or perhaps don'teven understand or career
opportunities that we can't evenenvision at this point. So any
thoughts or tips about howeducators can tap into that kind
(12:47):
of thinking? Maybe not theparticulars of it? Because as we
said, we don't really know whatthose particulars are. But that
way of thinking about the futureand about preparing for the
unknown, what what have yougathered? What have you learned
around those ideas?
Cynthia Brock (13:01):
Yeah, that's another great question, Lindsay.
And I'm going to talk about itand it's on a small scale. And
then maybe you and I cancollaboratively talk about it a
little bit broader scale. Thereason that piece came into the
model for my colleagues and I isthat we were doing a study, and
we were looking at it, I hadbeen teaching a teacher action
research course. And we got anIRB permission to study teachers
(13:23):
learning within within thecourse. And we were looking at
the way that they learned acrossthe course. And one thing that
struck us is that we figuredthat their learning could be
fostered more effectively, if Ias the teacher had done a more
thoughtful and careful job ofthinking about this notion of
(13:44):
beginning with the end in mind.
And here, here. I'm talkingabout the work of Stephen Covey
and his Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People. Other Other
there's a lot of other work outthere on that, but But this
notion of what is it that we'reaiming for, and how can we use
what it is that we're aimingfor, in our immediate context,
to try to do a more productivejob of fostering learning
opportunities to bring aboutsome of what it is that we're
(14:05):
aiming for? Now, your question,I think, is a little bit
different from that. Because Ithink your question is broader
than that. And it's, it'scomplex, because what are we
aiming for? Yeah, what are weaiming for in literacy? I mean,
it strikes me that those thosewould be some good questions for
us to think about. I think notI'm not suggesting people
haven't thought about that. Butmaybe, you know, those are some
(14:28):
important questions for us tothink about people who are
nimble in terms of usingdifferent tools to achieve
meaningful purposes. I'm alsothinking of this notion of the
work done by the NationalAcademy of Education, the civics
project, and then by that thosefolks, I mean, what is it that
we want our world to look likein our in our engagement with
one another to look like? Iknow, as literacy scholars, our
(14:48):
focus is literacy. But But howcan we use literacy as a tool to
foster some of that kind oflearning? So those are some of
the broader ideas we might thinkabout. You might have others
Lindsay Persohn (14:59):
in your response, you mentioned the word
nimble. And I think that that,for me is something I've always
aspired for education to be. AndI'm not real sure how we get
there, because we work withinsystems that are so deeply
rooted in, you know, ideasaround industrialization and
(15:20):
convention and standardization.
And that certainly does not lenditself to being nimble and
responsive to an unknown future.
And so, you know, I think itreally does take the Bright
Minds of educators in classroomsto think about what those
futures look like. Because Ialso think that it can be in
some ways, a localized concept,right? Whatever, you know, your
(15:43):
community, you'd have some ideaof the path that many children
take because of their, you know,their foundations in that
community. And I think that thatactually puts teachers in a
really great position to thinkand to to envision what the
future might look like, or whatit might hold for their
students. But it is a bigquestion. And it's certainly not
(16:04):
one that can be answered in asimple kind of way. But I think
even before we get to thosekinds of answers, we we do have
to envision schools that aremore nimble and more agile and
can can adapt to new ways ofthinking, rather than sort of
being stuck in rigid structuresand outdated models that really
(16:26):
teach to the past rather thanthe future.
Cynthia Brock (16:29):
I think that's well said, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (16:31):
Thank you. So in your model, you also talk
about communities of practice,and the the teacher and the
student being sort of side armswith that triangle with literacy
at the bottom. What have youlearned about communities of
practice? And how might teachersbe able to take up those kinds
of guiding structures in theirown work?
Cynthia Brock (16:50):
Okay, so that's another powerful question. The
way in our work, the way we'vebeen thinking about communities
is, of course, we've drawn onthe communities of practice work
and the liev and Wanger work.
But the other thing that we'vedone is we've thought about
communities in terms ofclassroom communities, school
communities, districtcommunities, my colleagues and
I, here in Wyoming do a lot ofwork in our state. We're
(17:10):
situated in our state, which issituated in international norms
and standards and so forth. So,so we're not thinking of
community, I don't think in anarrow way, but more of an
Bronfenbrenner nested way. Andone of the things that I that I
think we're learning as we work,for example, and Dana, Dana
Robertson, and Leigh Hall, and Ijust finished editing a book,
(17:31):
looking at literacy,professional learning. And we
worked with some amazingcolleagues across the US in New
Zealand and in Australia, whocontributed chapters from their
work, where they're focusing onreally powerful professional
learning initiatives. And one ofthe things that we're learning
is that situating ourselves inthat community, and paying
(17:53):
attention to the histories thatthe students bring to the
classroom, and school contextand district context that the
teachers bring to the context,and then working hard to develop
relationships. And then togethertrying to understand how to
promote literacy learning, it'slabor intensive work, that can
be really powerful. If we takethe time to try to
collaboratively do the work andmake it make it count for kids.
Lindsay Persohn (18:17):
That's so important to acknowledge that
even when we situate ourselves,I think sometimes it is in sort
of in a narrow kind of way. Andso thinking about yourself as an
individual in a classroom,within a school within a
district within a state withinnationwide kinds of contexts. I
think that's, that's helpful inthinking about who we are and
(18:39):
what kind of thinking we bringto our teaching. And also, I
think it's helpful in betterunderstanding affordances and
limitations of thatsituatedness. Because it
certainly seems as thoughteachers who are teaching near
me here in Florida may beworking in a very different kind
of context than teachers whereyou are in Wyoming because of
(19:04):
not only external pressures, butI think also external
opportunities, and also thetypes of resources we may have
access to the kind of leeway wemay feel that we have in our
teaching. And so yeah, I thinkthat's just it gives me sort of
this long view of what oursituatedness is, and that it's
(19:25):
not just immediate context, butthose nested contexts, as you
mentioned,
Cynthia Brock (19:30):
I guess I would add one of the things as you're,
as you're talking in terms ofworking in those complex nested
contexts, one of the things thatwe're learning in our in our
work is the central role thatlistening needs to play in
collaboratively working withothers to try to foster kids to
see learning opportunities. Andhere we've drawn on the work of
our friends and colleagues MaryMcVie and Denise Boyd, who've
(19:53):
written beautifully about thepower of listening when you're
trying to collaborate withothers to foster learning so I
We just we find that central toour work.
Lindsay Persohn (20:02):
Thank you for adding that because I think
that's one thing that we mayforget to do sometimes is to
listen to others, whether it'slistening to our students, and
what they are interested in, andwhat they want to learn, and
listening to their families orcommunity stakeholders, and then
also a broader view of what thatlistening might look like, which
(20:23):
actually, it really makes methink to what we were talking
about earlier around past andhistories, you know, when we
take those opportunities tolisten, I think we tap into
different types of histories anddifferent understandings of the
past that can help to inform usmoving forward. So I think that
that's, to me, those two ideasreally connect, listening to
(20:44):
others and thinking about thepast. So is there anything else
Cindy, that you would likelisteners to know about your
work?
Cynthia Brock (20:51):
The I guess the only other piece is that we keep
trying to understand more andmore. And it's it's this
iterative, recursive process ofcontinuing to learn, working in
context, learning more trying todo a better job. And here, I'm
talking about literacy,professional learning, but it's
true for any aspect of literacyresearch that we do.
Lindsay Persohn (21:11):
And I find that that is one thing that I think
can re energize us aroundteaching is this idea that the
work is never finished, there'salways more to learn. And there
are always different ways thatwe can support different and
important ways that we cansupport students, that 20% that
you mentioned earlier, that wemay not have been able to reach
with what we already know. Thankyou for that. So Cindy, yeah,
(21:36):
given the challenges of today'seducational climate, what
message do you want teachers tohear?
Cynthia Brock (21:41):
I guess, one of the one of the central messages
that we've been learning in ourown work, and that my colleagues
and I learned from reading thework of others and working in
schools on a regular basis, isthat, you know, in the field
that we've you and I've talkedabout this, the field of
literacy has shifted and grownacross time we've evolved. And
we've talked about the Tierney,Pearson book and that powerful
(22:01):
way of thinking about the waythe field has shifted across
time. And one of the things thatI think we do know as a field,
is that something RichardEllington told us in his book,
no quick fix decades ago, thatthere aren't easy answers or
quick fixes. And in working inschools and districts, we often
hear oh, now we have the answer.
Here's what the answer is. And Iguess one of my questions
(22:23):
whenever I hear that is who'sselling what? Because because we
know as a field, that highquality literacy instruction and
pedagogy, if that's what we'reaiming for, to really reach,
like you said, not just 80% ofthe kids, but all the kids that
we aren't going to find quickfixes, and we don't have easy
answers. And we have to continueto work to try to reach all the
(22:43):
kids that we serve. And so Iguess my main message is, I
think we want none of us to besold a bill of goods, because
there aren't Quick Fix fixes.
There aren't silver bullets.
There's just hard work.
Lindsay Persohn (22:56):
What an important reminder, because I
think, as you said, it's easy toget wrapped up, particularly if
we are being sold somethingthinking that this is the thing,
or I think it can bediscouraging, when that quick
fix wasn't what it was sold as.
And so, you know, for me thatremaining curious and and
thinking about the complexitiesof it all and how those ideas
(23:18):
are intertwined, and and howthey inform each other? And also
what's missing from what we'rebeing sold. And how do we seek
that out ourselves, particularlyif it isn't provided to us? I
think those are really importantquestions that can either I
think sometimes they can feeldefeating. If we do believe that
we've that we have the silverbullet, but I also think that
(23:41):
can be really energizing if wethink that there is always
something new to learn, andcertainly sharing that mindset
with our students, I think isone of the biggest gifts we can
give them. I agree. Well, Cindy,I thank you so very much for
your time today. And I thank youfor your contributions to the
field of education.
Cynthia Brock (24:01):
Thank you, Lindsay. It's been a privilege
to talk with you today. Iappreciate the invitation.
Lindsay Persohn (24:04):
Thank you. Dr.
Cynthia Brock is known for herwork in the study of
opportunities for learningliteracy. Her Various studies
have explored children'slearning pre and in service
teachers learning and universityclassrooms as well as
professional developmentcontexts. And her and her
colleagues learning. Sheexplores the literacy learning
opportunities of elementarychildren from diverse cultural,
(24:26):
linguistic and economicbackgrounds, and she studies
ways to work with pre and inservice teachers to foster the
literacy learning opportunitiesof children from non dominant
backgrounds. She has conductedqualitative research in cross
cultural contexts, including theUnited States, Australia,
England, Fiji, Thailand, Laos,Spain, Chile, and Costa Rica.
(24:48):
Her work has been published injournals such as Reading
Research Quarterly, teaching andteacher education, the
International Journal ofqualitative Studies in
Education, curriculum inquiry,urban education, the elementary
school journal, and pedagogiesand international journal. She
has published her work innumerous books and handbooks.
(25:10):
Dr. Brock has provided serviceat the local state national and
international levels as a boardmember for the literacy research
association area chair for lfra.
As a member of LRH Early CareerAward Committee, she's also a
member of the InternationalLiteracy Association's
nominating committee and ILA'sresearch grants program, as well
(25:33):
as a member of the NationalCouncil of Teachers of English
Standing Committee on research,and a member of NCTE's promising
researcher award committee. Dr.
Cynthia Brock is a professor atthe University of Wyoming where
she holds the Wyoming excellencein higher education Endowed
Chair in elementary literacyeducation. For the good of all
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
(25:57):
and practice. If this showprovides you with things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
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(26:19):
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(26:40):
at 1-941-212-0949. We would loveto hear from you. As always, I
raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. CynthiaBrock talks to us about learning
from our histories, consideringour futures, the central role of
listening, and the situatednessof our contexts, Cindy is known
for her work in the area ofopportunities for learning
(00:53):
literacy. Specifically, herstudies have explored children's
learning, pre and in serviceteachers learning in university
classrooms and in professionaldevelopment contexts. And her
and her colleagues learning. Dr.
Brock is a professor at theUniversity of Wyoming where she
holds the Wyoming excellence inhigher education endowed chair
in elementary literacyeducation. For more information
(01:15):
about our guest, stay tuned tothe end of this episode. So pour
a cup of your favorite drink.
And join me your host, LindsayPersohn. For classroom caffeine
research to energize yourteaching practice.
Cindy, thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Cynthia Brock (01:36):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (01:38):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now?
Cynthia Brock (01:46):
Yeah, that's a great question, Lindsay. Thank
you for asking that. One of theexperiences I'd like to share
happened in 1987. And in 1987, Iwas sitting in the office of an
assistant superintendent ofinstruction in a school district
in Michigan. And I was beinginterviewed for a sixth grade
position. And during theinterview process, I was telling
the Assistant Superintendentabout a teaching position that I
(02:09):
just had the year before that,where I was working in as a
matter of fact, Tallahassee,Florida, and I was teaching high
school math, because becausethat was my undergrad focus. And
I was telling him that theyhired me, even though I had been
an elementary teacher, theyhired me to teach what was
called something like compEdmath. And essentially, it was
for students who needed to passa competency exam in mathematics
(02:34):
that was required for graduationin Florida. And I think you
would know about that as being aFloridian. And so when I was
talking to the assistantsuperintendent, I spoke to him
with pride in my voice saying, Iwas really happy that 80% of my
students passed. And I wastelling him how thrilled I was
and he says, What happened tothe other 20%? That took me
(02:54):
aback, and I stopped, and Ithought, he's exactly right.
Rather than thinking aboutmyself as the teacher and what
I'd done, right, what I neededto be thinking about was the
students that I hadn't reachedand what I needed to do
differently to reach thosestudents. That was a powerful
learning experience for me. Sothat's one example. And I think
you said I could give you two.
And another really powerfulexample for me, was when I
(03:17):
worked with a fifth grade Hmongchild whose name was Deng for my
dissertation research, and I hadbeen an elementary teacher as
well as a high school mathteacher, prior to going back to
school to earn my doctorate. Andwhat I was particularly
interested in is what happenswhen you are an English speaking
which I am an English speakingteacher, and you are working
(03:41):
with kids who come to yourclassroom and speak English as
an additional language. And whatI wanted to get a sense of is
how do they how do children whoare English learners come into
classrooms and make sense ofwhat's going on in the
classroom? And so that's when Istarted studying literacy
learning opportunities, and myfocus for that research was
Dengs literacy learningopportunities. And I was
(04:03):
fortunate that I had a reallypowerful dissertation committee
including people like TaffyRaphael and Jim Gavelek and
Susan Florio-Ruane, I wasstruggling to try to understand
how Deng was experiencing hisclassroom literacy lessons. And
Susan Flurio-Wayne recommendedtrying something called a
viewing session. And that comesfrom the work of Fred Erickson
(04:25):
and Jeff Schultz. And what waspowerful about using viewing
sessions with Deng isessentially just what we would
do is I would video record Dengparticipating in his classroom
literacy lessons. Then, becausehis first languages were Hmong,
LAO and Thai. In that order. Ihad to enlist the help of an
older person who could speakolder student who could speak
(04:45):
English and Hmong fluently, andwe'd have to translate and so
forth. And what was fascinatingto me, was to learn from Deng
during those viewing sessionswhere he would watch himself
participating in his classroomliteracy lessons, and he was in
control of the remote. And hewould stop the lesson when he
had questions, confusions and soforth. And it was Deng was an
amazing teacher, because hehelped me understand from his
(05:07):
perspective, what it was like tobe in a series of literacy
lessons, essentially. So thoseare probably two of the most
powerful learning experiencesthat I can think of.
Lindsay Persohn (05:19):
I can certainly understand that initial moment
you shared, you know, the thesense of new teacher pride that
80% of your kids had passed thattest. But I mean, what a
critical question, right? WhatWhat about the other 20%. And I
think that really helps me tothink about the experience that
you described with Deng. And Ican only imagine how powerful it
(05:41):
was to sit with him as he sortof reviewed and recapped what
those lessons were like for him,because I would venture to say
that there aren't many teacherswho have an opportunity like
that, to see their own workthrough the eyes of their
students, and just how powerfulthat could be. The other thing
that I was really struck by inyour example, there is how Deng
(06:05):
would likely be framed and howhis his literacy understandings
would likely be framed in manyschools, particularly around the
US at some sort of deficit,right when he or he comes to
school with with knowledge ofthree other languages. And I
think so often in schools, wesay, but he doesn't know
English, right? Like, like, thatis the only thing that really
(06:27):
matters. And so we know it isthe language of power in many
places. But you know, in mymind, that shouldn't be to the
exclusion or to the detriment ofany other kind of literacy
assets that a student might comewith. So I'm really hoping that
you will help us to understandand kind of unpack those
experiences a bit more inresponse to this next question,
(06:47):
Cindy, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Cynthia Brock (06:51):
So I guess the main thing is that my colleagues
and I have actually startedstudying this notion of
opportunities to learn literacy,way back in the mid mid 90s. And
here, I was drawing on the workof the Santa Barbara classroom
discourse, community group,Judith green, and Carol Dixon
and her colleagues. And acrosstime since then, that's been the
(07:13):
focus of my scholarship. Andpart of what I've done, and I
know you can't see this in apodcast, but my colleagues and I
have, across time have created amodel that we use to help us
think about the pieces that needto be in place to do the very
best job we can as educators tofoster the literacy learning of
children, especially childrenfrom diverse linguistic,
(07:34):
cultural and racial backgrounds.
And so I guess one of the thingsthat I that I would like
listeners to know about the workthat my colleagues and I have
done is that literacy iscrucial. Understanding literacy,
the components of literacy, howliteracy works, absolutely
crucial. And it's one crucialcomponent of overall thinking
about how to foster kidsliteracy learning opportunities.
(07:55):
And so my colleagues and I havea model with a triangle in the
middle. And the vertices includethe teacher with respect to what
the teacher does in the context,the student with respect to what
the student brings to thecontext and what the student
does. And then, of course,literacy, which is the area that
we focus on in our in our work,that triangle is situated in a
circle that focuses oncommunities of practice. And
(08:18):
that circle, the way we set ourmodel up as the circle includes
a past and all the components ofthe model, have histories,
literacy evolves across time, weas teachers evolve and change
across time our students do. Andso there's so the past shapes,
what happens in immediatecontext is we're trying to
understand the waiting to fosterthe most powerful literacy
(08:40):
learning opportunities. In oneof our studies, we then added
the notion of prolepses to themodel, this notion of projecting
the future into the present, andhow does that relate what we
what it is that we do as we workwith children and how we work
with them with respect to theirliteracy learning. So I guess
one of the main things I'd liketo emphasize is just that the
complexity of all those piecesthat matter when we're thinking
(09:02):
about how we can do the verybest job to foster kids literacy
learning opportunities,
Lindsay Persohn (09:08):
I have a vision in my mind of what that model
looks like. And certainly, wewill post an image of that on
your guests page, and also inthe show notes, so that
listeners are able to see it.
But you know, so much of whatyou're saying, Cindy, it reminds
me of how important it is for usto understand the past of the
work that we're doing. And youknow, certainly past guests on
(09:31):
the show have talked a bit aboutyou know, what that might look
like and some practicalapplications for how we might
think about, you know, thehistory of how literacy
instruction is delivered inschools and how that impacts our
present because I know even frommy very first years of teaching,
I heard experienced teacherstalk about the swinging
pendulum, right that everythingcomes back and I think that
(09:54):
there there are mistakes, if youwill an instruction that we, we
shall be doomed to repeat if wedon't understand what they were
and what lessons were learnedfrom them. And so I'm wondering
if there, there might beanything else here that you
could share with listeners abouthow we can work to be informed
by the past of the instructionthat we're giving or, or by the
(10:16):
past of the work that we'redoing as educators?
Cynthia Brock (10:22):
That's Lindsay, that's important. That's a
really wonderful question. And Idon't know that there are any
easy answers to that it strikesme that one of the best things
we can do is to continue toeducate ourselves. And I know
when I'm thinking about literacyin the history of literacy,
there's some there's somewonderful work out there that a
lot of us have probably read.
And that a new book that I'mparticularly impressed with is
(10:43):
the new book by Robert Tierneyand David Pearson, on the
history of literacy. And theykind of talked about the history
in terms of waves. And I just, Ijust find that very powerful.
And, and it strikes me thatknowing that history, for all of
us, as educators, for teachers,for researchers, it matters,
because what we're experiencingnow is shaped and informed by
(11:05):
the history of the field, by thesocial political context, you
know, that we that we live inhere in the US. And so and so
it's, there's a lot to what'shappening now, it's not just it
didn't just happen in themoment, it comes from somewhere.
Lindsay Persohn (11:21):
Right? I think that's so important. And in
fact, Rob and David are bothpast guests of classroom
caffeine, and in particular, RobTierney sort of traces this
history of, of literacyinstruction for us, I often
describe it as a 20,000 footview of literacy, not just us
based, but he also talks a bitabout literacy instruction
(11:42):
around the world. And that's agreat connection for listeners,
and certainly a wonderful bookto check out if anyone has not.
But I know that Rob alsomentioned a website where
there's quite a bit of thatinformation as well. So that can
be found on his guests page andhis show notes. So thank you for
that. Because I, I think thatthat sometimes this idea of what
(12:04):
has come before us, it'ssometimes can feel like so much
that it is it's difficult toknow where to begin. So
certainly having resources likethat can be just so helpful in
navigating. So what about thisnotion of prolepses? And how we
sort of project what mighthappen in the future? That
reminds me, of course ofconversations I've had for the
(12:26):
show as well, and certainlythings I've read and and in
particular, this idea that we'repreparing kids, for a future we
don't yet know, or perhaps don'teven understand or career
opportunities that we can't evenenvision at this point. So any
thoughts or tips about howeducators can tap into that kind
(12:47):
of thinking? Maybe not theparticulars of it? Because as we
said, we don't really know whatthose particulars are. But that
way of thinking about the futureand about preparing for the
unknown, what what have yougathered? What have you learned
around those ideas?
Cynthia Brock (13:01):
Yeah, that's another great question, Lindsay.
And I'm going to talk about itand it's on a small scale. And
then maybe you and I cancollaboratively talk about it a
little bit broader scale. Thereason that piece came into the
model for my colleagues and I isthat we were doing a study, and
we were looking at it, I hadbeen teaching a teacher action
research course. And we got anIRB permission to study teachers
(13:23):
learning within within thecourse. And we were looking at
the way that they learned acrossthe course. And one thing that
struck us is that we figuredthat their learning could be
fostered more effectively, if Ias the teacher had done a more
thoughtful and careful job ofthinking about this notion of
(13:44):
beginning with the end in mind.
And here, here. I'm talkingabout the work of Stephen Covey
and his Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People. Other Other
there's a lot of other work outthere on that, but But this
notion of what is it that we'reaiming for, and how can we use
what it is that we're aimingfor, in our immediate context,
to try to do a more productivejob of fostering learning
opportunities to bring aboutsome of what it is that we're
(14:05):
aiming for? Now, your question,I think, is a little bit
different from that. Because Ithink your question is broader
than that. And it's, it'scomplex, because what are we
aiming for? Yeah, what are weaiming for in literacy? I mean,
it strikes me that those thosewould be some good questions for
us to think about. I think notI'm not suggesting people
haven't thought about that. Butmaybe, you know, those are some
(14:28):
important questions for us tothink about people who are
nimble in terms of usingdifferent tools to achieve
meaningful purposes. I'm alsothinking of this notion of the
work done by the NationalAcademy of Education, the civics
project, and then by that thosefolks, I mean, what is it that
we want our world to look likein our in our engagement with
one another to look like? Iknow, as literacy scholars, our
(14:48):
focus is literacy. But But howcan we use literacy as a tool to
foster some of that kind oflearning? So those are some of
the broader ideas we might thinkabout. You might have others
Lindsay Persohn (14:59):
in your response, you mentioned the word
nimble. And I think that that,for me is something I've always
aspired for education to be. AndI'm not real sure how we get
there, because we work withinsystems that are so deeply
rooted in, you know, ideasaround industrialization and
(15:20):
convention and standardization.
And that certainly does not lenditself to being nimble and
responsive to an unknown future.
And so, you know, I think itreally does take the Bright
Minds of educators in classroomsto think about what those
futures look like. Because Ialso think that it can be in
some ways, a localized concept,right? Whatever, you know, your
(15:43):
community, you'd have some ideaof the path that many children
take because of their, you know,their foundations in that
community. And I think that thatactually puts teachers in a
really great position to thinkand to to envision what the
future might look like, or whatit might hold for their
students. But it is a bigquestion. And it's certainly not
(16:04):
one that can be answered in asimple kind of way. But I think
even before we get to thosekinds of answers, we we do have
to envision schools that aremore nimble and more agile and
can can adapt to new ways ofthinking, rather than sort of
being stuck in rigid structuresand outdated models that really
(16:26):
teach to the past rather thanthe future.
Cynthia Brock (16:29):
I think that's well said, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (16:31):
Thank you. So in your model, you also talk
about communities of practice,and the the teacher and the
student being sort of side armswith that triangle with literacy
at the bottom. What have youlearned about communities of
practice? And how might teachersbe able to take up those kinds
of guiding structures in theirown work?
Cynthia Brock (16:50):
Okay, so that's another powerful question. The
way in our work, the way we'vebeen thinking about communities
is, of course, we've drawn onthe communities of practice work
and the liev and Wanger work.
But the other thing that we'vedone is we've thought about
communities in terms ofclassroom communities, school
communities, districtcommunities, my colleagues and
I, here in Wyoming do a lot ofwork in our state. We're
(17:10):
situated in our state, which issituated in international norms
and standards and so forth. So,so we're not thinking of
community, I don't think in anarrow way, but more of an
Bronfenbrenner nested way. Andone of the things that I that I
think we're learning as we work,for example, and Dana, Dana
Robertson, and Leigh Hall, and Ijust finished editing a book,
(17:31):
looking at literacy,professional learning. And we
worked with some amazingcolleagues across the US in New
Zealand and in Australia, whocontributed chapters from their
work, where they're focusing onreally powerful professional
learning initiatives. And one ofthe things that we're learning
is that situating ourselves inthat community, and paying
(17:53):
attention to the histories thatthe students bring to the
classroom, and school contextand district context that the
teachers bring to the context,and then working hard to develop
relationships. And then togethertrying to understand how to
promote literacy learning, it'slabor intensive work, that can
be really powerful. If we takethe time to try to
collaboratively do the work andmake it make it count for kids.
Lindsay Persohn (18:17):
That's so important to acknowledge that
even when we situate ourselves,I think sometimes it is in sort
of in a narrow kind of way. Andso thinking about yourself as an
individual in a classroom,within a school within a
district within a state withinnationwide kinds of contexts. I
think that's, that's helpful inthinking about who we are and
(18:39):
what kind of thinking we bringto our teaching. And also, I
think it's helpful in betterunderstanding affordances and
limitations of thatsituatedness. Because it
certainly seems as thoughteachers who are teaching near
me here in Florida may beworking in a very different kind
of context than teachers whereyou are in Wyoming because of
(19:04):
not only external pressures, butI think also external
opportunities, and also thetypes of resources we may have
access to the kind of leeway wemay feel that we have in our
teaching. And so yeah, I thinkthat's just it gives me sort of
this long view of what oursituatedness is, and that it's
(19:25):
not just immediate context, butthose nested contexts, as you
mentioned,
Cynthia Brock (19:30):
I guess I would add one of the things as you're,
as you're talking in terms ofworking in those complex nested
contexts, one of the things thatwe're learning in our in our
work is the central role thatlistening needs to play in
collaboratively working withothers to try to foster kids to
see learning opportunities. Andhere we've drawn on the work of
our friends and colleagues MaryMcVie and Denise Boyd, who've
(19:53):
written beautifully about thepower of listening when you're
trying to collaborate withothers to foster learning so I
We just we find that central toour work.
Lindsay Persohn (20:02):
Thank you for adding that because I think
that's one thing that we mayforget to do sometimes is to
listen to others, whether it'slistening to our students, and
what they are interested in, andwhat they want to learn, and
listening to their families orcommunity stakeholders, and then
also a broader view of what thatlistening might look like, which
(20:23):
actually, it really makes methink to what we were talking
about earlier around past andhistories, you know, when we
take those opportunities tolisten, I think we tap into
different types of histories anddifferent understandings of the
past that can help to inform usmoving forward. So I think that
that's, to me, those two ideasreally connect, listening to
(20:44):
others and thinking about thepast. So is there anything else
Cindy, that you would likelisteners to know about your
work?
Cynthia Brock (20:51):
The I guess the only other piece is that we keep
trying to understand more andmore. And it's it's this
iterative, recursive process ofcontinuing to learn, working in
context, learning more trying todo a better job. And here, I'm
talking about literacy,professional learning, but it's
true for any aspect of literacyresearch that we do.
Lindsay Persohn (21:11):
And I find that that is one thing that I think
can re energize us aroundteaching is this idea that the
work is never finished, there'salways more to learn. And there
are always different ways thatwe can support different and
important ways that we cansupport students, that 20% that
you mentioned earlier, that wemay not have been able to reach
with what we already know. Thankyou for that. So Cindy, yeah,
(21:36):
given the challenges of today'seducational climate, what
message do you want teachers tohear?
Cynthia Brock (21:41):
I guess, one of the one of the central messages
that we've been learning in ourown work, and that my colleagues
and I learned from reading thework of others and working in
schools on a regular basis, isthat, you know, in the field
that we've you and I've talkedabout this, the field of
literacy has shifted and grownacross time we've evolved. And
we've talked about the Tierney,Pearson book and that powerful
(22:01):
way of thinking about the waythe field has shifted across
time. And one of the things thatI think we do know as a field,
is that something RichardEllington told us in his book,
no quick fix decades ago, thatthere aren't easy answers or
quick fixes. And in working inschools and districts, we often
hear oh, now we have the answer.
Here's what the answer is. And Iguess one of my questions
(22:23):
whenever I hear that is who'sselling what? Because because we
know as a field, that highquality literacy instruction and
pedagogy, if that's what we'reaiming for, to really reach,
like you said, not just 80% ofthe kids, but all the kids that
we aren't going to find quickfixes, and we don't have easy
answers. And we have to continueto work to try to reach all the
(22:43):
kids that we serve. And so Iguess my main message is, I
think we want none of us to besold a bill of goods, because
there aren't Quick Fix fixes.
There aren't silver bullets.
There's just hard work.
Lindsay Persohn (22:56):
What an important reminder, because I
think, as you said, it's easy toget wrapped up, particularly if
we are being sold somethingthinking that this is the thing,
or I think it can bediscouraging, when that quick
fix wasn't what it was sold as.
And so, you know, for me thatremaining curious and and
thinking about the complexitiesof it all and how those ideas
(23:18):
are intertwined, and and howthey inform each other? And also
what's missing from what we'rebeing sold. And how do we seek
that out ourselves, particularlyif it isn't provided to us? I
think those are really importantquestions that can either I
think sometimes they can feeldefeating. If we do believe that
we've that we have the silverbullet, but I also think that
(23:41):
can be really energizing if wethink that there is always
something new to learn, andcertainly sharing that mindset
with our students, I think isone of the biggest gifts we can
give them. I agree. Well, Cindy,I thank you so very much for
your time today. And I thank youfor your contributions to the
field of education.
Cynthia Brock (24:01):
Thank you, Lindsay. It's been a privilege
to talk with you today. Iappreciate the invitation.
Lindsay Persohn (24:04):
Thank you. Dr.
Cynthia Brock is known for herwork in the study of
opportunities for learningliteracy. Her Various studies
have explored children'slearning pre and in service
teachers learning and universityclassrooms as well as
professional developmentcontexts. And her and her
colleagues learning. Sheexplores the literacy learning
opportunities of elementarychildren from diverse cultural,
(24:26):
linguistic and economicbackgrounds, and she studies
ways to work with pre and inservice teachers to foster the
literacy learning opportunitiesof children from non dominant
backgrounds. She has conductedqualitative research in cross
cultural contexts, including theUnited States, Australia,
England, Fiji, Thailand, Laos,Spain, Chile, and Costa Rica.
(24:48):
Her work has been published injournals such as Reading
Research Quarterly, teaching andteacher education, the
International Journal ofqualitative Studies in
Education, curriculum inquiry,urban education, the elementary
school journal, and pedagogiesand international journal. She
has published her work innumerous books and handbooks.
(25:10):
Dr. Brock has provided serviceat the local state national and
international levels as a boardmember for the literacy research
association area chair for lfra.
As a member of LRH Early CareerAward Committee, she's also a
member of the InternationalLiteracy Association's
nominating committee and ILA'sresearch grants program, as well
(25:33):
as a member of the NationalCouncil of Teachers of English
Standing Committee on research,and a member of NCTE's promising
researcher award committee. Dr.
Cynthia Brock is a professor atthe University of Wyoming where
she holds the Wyoming excellencein higher education Endowed
Chair in elementary literacyeducation. For the good of all
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
(25:57):
and practice. If this showprovides you with things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
WWW dot classroom caffeine.comwhere you can learn more about
(26:19):
each guest. Find transcripts formany episodes, explore episode
topics using our tagging featuresupport podcast research through
our survey, request and episodetopic or a potential guest or
share your own questions that wemight respond to through the
show. You could also leave us avoice message or a text message
(26:40):
at 1-941-212-0949. We would loveto hear from you. As always, I
raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
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