April 25, 2023 • 39 mins
Dr. Dana Robertson talks to us about connections between conversation and music, the power of motivation and engagement, and opportunities for creating meaningful contexts for learning in schools. Dana is known for his work focused on classroom discussion and teachers’ talk, reading and writing challenges, and literacy professional learning through coaching and whole school literacy improvement. Through each of these projects, he has sought ways to provide equitable and inclusive literacy opportunities to teachers and school-age children in ways that are humanizing, agentive, and sustainable. He has received numerous awards for his research and teaching. Dr. Dana A. Robertson is an Associate Professor of Reading and Literacy in the School of Education at Virginia Tech.
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Apr. 25). A conversation with Dana Robertson (Season 3, No. 23) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/BF18-C3BC-F7F2-4DB0-A875-L
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
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Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. DanaRobertson talks to us about
connections between conversationand music, the power of
motivation and engagement andopportunities for creating
meaningful context for learningin schools. Dana is known for
his work focused on classroomdiscourse and teachers talk,
(00:53):
reading and writing challengesand literacy, professional
learning through coaching andwhole school literacy
improvement. through each ofthese projects, he has sought
ways to provide equitable andinclusive literacy opportunities
to teachers and school agedchildren in ways that are
humanizing agentive andsustainable. He has received
numerous awards for his researchand teaching. Dr. Dana a.
(01:17):
Robertson is an associateprofessor of reading and
literacy in the School ofEducation at Virginia Tech. For
more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
(01:38):
your teaching practice. Dana,thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Dana Robertson (01:44):
Lindsay, thank you so much. It's really a
pleasure to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (01:47):
Thank you. So from your own experiences in
education, will you share withus one or two moments that
inform your thinking now?
Dana Robertson (01:55):
Sure, I think my first experience is probably not
going to be one that youexpected. Because my first
experience actually relates tomusic. I was immersed in music
early on, I think it was aboutfour years old or so is as early
as I can remember. There wasalways vinyl, LPs playing in the
(02:17):
house, a lot of big band jazzand others that had featured
drummers. And as you mightexpect, now, I am a drummer and
used to be a professionaldrummer, you know, but back then
I used to set up pots and pansand wooden spoons, and I was
learning to listen to thelanguage of the musicians from
(02:37):
very early on. And then, overthe decades from that point, of
course, my parents realized thatthis was not just a passing
fade. And you know, theypurchased me a drum set, and
then further drum sets andfurther drum sets. But all
throughout this time, justlistening to music, and learning
(02:58):
from the musicians what they'redoing, how they were playing
with each other. And then ofcourse, once I started playing
with other people doing the samething, and what I've come to
realize, reflecting back on itis that I was learning to
communicate and listen. So thatI was saying what I said
musically in response to whatothers contributed. So when
(03:23):
musicians are playing together,you're always trying to
hopefully invite space foreveryone to be part of the
conversation. And it's thatunderstanding of how our
interaction collectively asmusicians, shapes the music that
we're creating. And I neverthought about this at first when
I was, you know, when I firstbecame a researcher, in a
(03:45):
literacy scholar, but uponreflecting upon it, I realized
that a lot of the work that I donow has that roots in this idea
of how we're creating space, andlistening and communicating to
each other, so that we can havea collective voice in terms of
what we're trying to say. So Iwould say that that was probably
(04:07):
the first experience. It wasn'ta single experience, but you
know, his experience over many,many decades. And then I became
tired of being a touringmusician. And I moved into
education, but not to teachmusic to teach elementary
school. And I was a fifth gradeteacher in Massachusetts. And
(04:29):
this is where the secondexperience that I think has been
a transformational experiencefor me. Of course, I was in my
first year and you know, one ofthe lessons didn't go well. It
happens to all of us. I don'teven remember what the topic of
the lesson was. But a lessondidn't go well. And I'm here,
you know, my first yearteaching. I go over to my mentor
(04:51):
teacher, Miss Lafave. I stillcall her by her last name
because she was actually one ofmy teachers when I was a student
and I was working with her thenas co-teachers, so I went over
to her and we were sitting downbecause this is what we did
after school each day, you know,we sat and we talked and we
reflected, and we shared ideas.
And I was just talking about howthe lesson didn't go well. And
you know, the students weredoing this, and students were
(05:12):
doing this and the students, youknow, they didn't get this part.
And she stopped me. She said,Wait, she said, What were you
doing? And that right there,stuck with me? Because I had to
think about, well, what was Idoing at this point when the
students weren't doing what Iwanted them to do? And it
stopped me. And I realized fromthat point that I started paying
(05:36):
closer attention to how studentsresponded to what I did in the
classroom, and to what I said,and I started to realize that
how I spoke, when I'm deliveringthe instruction really mattered.
My language choices helped setthe tone for the classroom, not
only in terms of shapingmanagement, but it also seemed
to be that my language choiceswere very consequential for
(06:00):
student learning. So this aspectof teacher talk teacher
language, stuck with me as Imoved into my doctoral study and
into the work that I do now. Andthat importance of reflection
and language
Lindsay Persohn (06:19):
two wonderfully rich examples. I think, the
reason I asked that question isbecause I feel everyone has
these moments, or these sort ofinspirational experiences that
lead us to the work that we do.
And I love that idea of thinkingof music as a conversation, and
how that can in fact, inform theway that we think about how we
talk with students, how we sortof run the band, so to speak,
(06:42):
right in our own classrooms,because it is so important, the
choices we make in our language,they do impact the climate, the
the learning, the understandingthe content, and just that sense
of community. So thank you somuch for those really wonderful,
rich examples, Dana.
Dana Robertson (07:01):
Yeah, sure. And like I said, I didn't even
realize it. At first, I wasn'tconsciously making that, that
link to music. It wasn't until Iwas trying to actually reflect
on all of the work that I hadbeen doing as a researcher for
the last several years. Thatthat first, you know, came to my
mind, I was like, Oh, wait, thisis exactly like I was doing when
(07:23):
I was playing music, and how Iplay music with other people.
Lindsay Persohn (07:27):
Yeah, and I the other reason I think I love that
example so much is because it isa typical of how we think about
the way classrooms work. Right.
And that sense of community, youknow, in my experience, it just,
it is so very important. Andthinking about how music and the
arts can help us to expand ourthinking about our classroom
(07:48):
spaces beyond those four walls.
It reminds me you know, thateverything is connected, which I
think also sometimes can be easyto forget when we get into the
day to day of teaching. So yeah,just really wonderful examples.
Thank you.
Dana Robertson (08:02):
Yeah. And the conversation is not established
ahead of time. You know, it'snot scripted out. It's, it's
improvised, but you're bringingto that improvisation, you know,
all of the beliefs anddispositions and everything that
you hold. But you're stillimprovising that conversation as
you're moving forward tohopefully reach the goals that
(08:23):
you have set.
Lindsay Persohn (08:24):
That's right.
And that that actually remindsme of a conversation I had with
Kevin Leander about some of thework that he's doing with
improvisation and teachertraining. So there's a
connection for listeners aswell. Yeah, that's really great
stuff. So Dana, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Dana Robertson (08:40):
Well, I think, as I just talked about there,
from those experiences, in termsof having that conversation, and
then thinking about when Ibecame a teacher, and and the
importance of language, the roleof language has always been
central to the work that I'mdoing, and have been doing over
the last decade or so. Butlanguages been central in
(09:03):
different ways, depending on onwhat the work is. And I've
always tried to take a verypragmatic stance to the research
that I'm doing, not designingstudies that are, you know, in
a, quote unquote, laboratorycontext and things like that,
but, but working with teacherswithin their socially situated
(09:28):
contexts, around ideas that havebeen not only identified by me,
but co identified by me and theteachers together to be
legitimate areas of focus ofinquiry for the work that we're
engaged in. And I'm not I don'tsay that I don't do laboratory
type research or things likethat. Because I don't think that
(09:50):
that work is important. It'sabsolutely essential, but we
also need work that's workingwith teachers as they're trying
to grapple with particularproblems or issues that arise As
in their classrooms as well, andhow they might work to translate
particular research findingsinto practice within their
classroom to help their studentslearn more. So, language has
(10:12):
always been a focus, whether itwas my dissertation where I was
a coach, and there was teachersthat were reflecting on their
talk that they were using withtheir students through listening
to audio recordings ofthemselves after they provided
their instruction, or actuallytranscribing their talk to be
(10:34):
very reflective to say, how wasI providing explanations of how
to engage in this comprehensionstrategy work, which happened to
be the focus of thedissertation? So again, it was
this idea of what role was mylanguage choices as a teacher
having in influencing the thelearning that was going on, and
then that shifted over time tothink about characteristics of
(11:00):
effective instruction around,you know, what are the kinds of
big idea characteristics that Ifelt and my colleagues that I
was working with felt, wereimportant to have as part of our
work, especially when workingwith students who find reading
and writing challenging, andafter reviewing research, we
landed on ideas of motivationand engagement, as one of the
(11:26):
first and foremost things, notto say that motivation always
precedes literacy achievement,because we know that students
become more more motivated, whenthey're successful at engaging
in work. But we didn't want tohold off on motivation and
engagement until students weresuccessful readers, we wanted to
(11:48):
start with that right from thebeginning. But then also
thinking about instructionalintensity and teaching
strategies, so that studentscould apply those strategies to
actually achieve knowledge basedgoals. So we hear a lot right
now about, you know, knowledgebuilding curriculum and things
like that. And, and I love it,because I've been writing about
(12:10):
that, since like, 2013, abouthaving these knowledge goals
that we're trying to work on.
And I'm not saying that I cameup with the idea of knowledge
based, you know, reading andwriting either, but it was
drawing from that literature. SoI'm glad to see it's really, you
know, moving to the forefrontnow. But that work again, we
focused that work aroundthinking about teachers,
(12:33):
language choices, as levers forthinking about motivation, and
engagement, and for teachingstrategies, to students that
find reading and writingchallenging, and us as coaches
or other coaches that we wereworking with, we're engaging in
that work, to use video as abasis of reflection. So again,
(12:56):
the ideas of language andreflection are coming in using
videos as a basis of reflectionto think about how our talk was
helping to create instructionalintensity and to create an
engaging environment to thethings like that. And then that
work from the dissertation. Andthe idea of characteristics of
(13:17):
effective instruction, and videobased reflection, has merged
into what I've been exploringnow around coaching discourse,
because all of the work thatcame prior was related to
coaching, because coaches werepart of those conversations. But
what I'm starting to explore ishow coaches or other PD
(13:40):
providers or professionallearning providers, talk with
teachers, you know, because wehear about the importance of,
you know, a coach, having atrusting relationship and things
like that, but what does thatreally mean, you know, you know,
how do we talk with teachers ina way that helps build that
relational understanding betweenthe two, so that teachers are
(14:01):
not just talked to, but actuallytalked with, as SPD providers.
So all of this work aroundlanguage, when I was reflecting
upon it, it linked back to thoseideas that I talked about with
music earlier about how we'reall part of the collective
(14:21):
conversation when we're playingmusic, because the piece of
music comes out is the result ofall of us being there. So why
aren't our coachingconversations and our PD
conversations the same? And whyisn't our work with teachers and
students the same where all ofour voices are collectively
valued and and seen as importantto the conversation? So that's
(14:43):
really where I've been trying toexplore the coaching work is to
say what is the coachingdiscourse that's happening
around instances where teachersare acting in an agent active
way where they're where they'reexercising their agency because
They know what they need fortheir students in their context.
But maybe me as a coach onproviding a little bit of
(15:06):
support or brainstormingtogether with them, not giving
them the right answers, butbrainstorming and problem
solving with them to thinkabout, well, what are we doing?
And how could we tweak it alittle bit, to help make it a
little bit more effective orsuccessful as we're working with
students. So I think it reallyjust comes back to that
(15:29):
relational understanding of talkand reflection, language
choices, and we're all in ittogether.
Lindsay Persohn (15:40):
It really does paint a very, I would even say
motivating picture of whatschool environments could be
like, what teaching could looklike, if we do in fact, have the
sort of Symphony of voices thatcomes together in order to
create those positive andproductive learning
environments, and not just forstudents? Right, they should be
positive and productive learningenvironments for for teachers as
(16:01):
well, we are all we're alwaysgrowing and learning, we're
always trying to hone our craft.
And so I love that idea of whatthose conversations could look
like in order to supportteachers, as they work in
agentive ways. And as they areexpressing what they need for
their students and forthemselves.
Dana Robertson (16:17):
And we talked about that, you know, we talked
about, you know, differentiatinginstruction for students all the
time. And we know that we shouldbe differentiating instruction
and providing responsiveinstruction. But that's
important for the adults toknow, because if I'm providing
PD on vocabulary instruction,not all of those teachers are
going to come with the samefunds of knowledge about
(16:38):
vocabulary. So why can't we allcollectively understand
vocabulary? While we're allexploring the little areas of
vocabulary that we need to workon with our students that are in
front of us at this time?
Lindsay Persohn (16:52):
Right, right. I think that's I think that's such
a great question. And I'vereflected on that also, in my
own teaching practice, you know,whenever all the teachers come
together, all at one time totalk about the exact same ideas
without the acknowledgement thatwe're all in different places in
our professional learning, andand our content knowledge even
you know, it is a, I think it'sa an important question. And I
(17:13):
hope it's one that is beingasked in many spaces in this
world in order to supportteachers. So Dana, you mentioned
the idea that or that your workshifted to consider
characteristics of effectiveinstruction, and specifically
motivation and engagement andthen on through discourse around
teaching language choices forteachers, and discourse and
(17:35):
coaching. I feel as thoughmotivation engagement gives us
something really concrete tothink about when we consider
what are the most effectivepractices in our classrooms? Did
you have any other tips youmight be able to offer to
listeners around thosecharacteristics you identified
particularly effectiveinstruction?
Dana Robertson (17:52):
Yeah, so the the first one was this idea of of
creating a motivated andengaging environment. And from
this work, we drew a lot on JohnGuthrie and colleagues work on
concept oriented readinginstruction, around the types of
teaching actions that seem to becorrelated with increased
(18:16):
reading achievement overall, andstrategy use and things like
that. So what they have found intheir research, and what we had
then taken up and brought intoour clinical context, when we
were working with students thatfound reading and writing
challenging was that there werereally four key teaching
(18:37):
practices. The first one was tohave that knowledge focus, to
have knowledge driven goals. Andthis is just that long standing
idea of having that relevantpurpose for teaching particular
skills and strategies. You know,we're not teaching students to
identify cause and effect or towrite a summary, they have to be
(18:59):
able to summarize, in order tounderstand this bigger idea
that's related to the realworld. So that was one of those
teaching actions is alwaysmaking sure that, you know,
we're not just teaching theskills and strategies, but we're
teaching those in service of alarger outcome, which is
(19:20):
knowledge based, you know, worldworld knowledge based type of
thing. And then from there, it'sthe idea of using interesting
texts. I mean, there's just acorrelation with huge effect
sizes of over 1.0 When the textsare interesting to students, and
that doesn't mean that you givethem only the text that they
(19:41):
want to read it all the times.
But if it's a curricular topic,we're really doing our due
diligence to make sure that wehave texts that are appealing to
look at and are written in a waythat have enough grist and
content to grapple with andthings like that. But then of
course, there's also time forthem to to read texts have their
own interest as well. Becausethe other teaching action is
(20:03):
there's some opportunity forchoice. And when I talk about
choice with teachers, I oftenhear teachers say, Well, I can't
just let students do whateverthey want. And that's not what
choice actually is, there's waysto give what I refer to as many
choices. You know, we're allreading about the Holocaust. But
here's a bin of books on theHolocaust. And you can choose
(20:24):
which one you want to read. orWe're all reading this book
about the Holocaust, but you canchoose to read it with a partner
or on your own. And then there'sopportunities where they're
choosing books, on their own fortheir own topics, you know, some
self selected reading that theywant to do as well. So the idea
of choice is another action thatincreases motivation and
(20:45):
engagement. And thenopportunities for collaboration.
You know, when when kids areworking together, they're more
motivated. So give them moreopportunities, to collaborate,
to talk together to discuss, andit's going to be more
motivating, but also they'regoing to understand more. And
they're going to be able tocreate more in the in their
(21:05):
writing when they're discussingand talking together. So the
other broad category is thinkingabout instructional intensity,
because we want to think abouthow we're using our time. And
these are ideas of teachingstudents strategic actions, not
in the same way of like for thenext couple of weeks, we're
going to, I'm going to teach youhow to make predictions. And now
(21:26):
I'm going to teach you how tomake connections. And now we're
going to do this. But the ideaof teaching students how to you
have this book in front of you?
What do you do now tosuccessfully navigate your way
through the book? What kinds ofthings do you do before you
start reading? What kinds ofthings should you be doing while
(21:48):
you're reading? And what kindsof things might you do when
you're done reading, either donereading with the book or done
reading for the day? So thosekinds of integrated strategic
actions, which incorporate allof those strategies of
predicting and makingconnections, and summarizing and
all of that, but they're reallythought about as more open ended
(22:09):
questions, kind of mergesstrategies with the kind of work
that Margaret McCowan and othersdid around questioning the
author, where, you know, you'reasking the author, you know,
what was the author trying tosay, here, you know, as a
monitoring strategy, you know,things like that. So, having
those strategic actions that areopen ended and can get across
(22:33):
books and contexts and contentareas, increases intensity,
because you're using it moreoften. Now. It's not just an
isolated thing. And then ofcourse, thinking about pacing,
and the match of of books toreaders, is going to help to
create the instructionalintensity. And then the last big
(22:53):
idea that we talked about isworking with students that find
reading and writing challenging,is actually cognitive challenge
for them. Because we've knownfor decades that the students
who aren't reading as wellaren't writing as well typically
read less words during the day,they engage in less discussion.
(23:14):
They're doing more, you know,question answering about short
little books that they'rereading and things like that, in
the text that they're readingdon't have a lot of grist in
them. So this idea of how we cancreate cognitively challenging
tasks for them, but mediate itin a way so that students can
access that content. And fromthe motivation research, the
(23:38):
engagement research, such asthat Guthrie and others did
tasks that are slightlychallenging, yet students feel
that they could still besuccessful at it with the right
help, is actually more engagingthan engaging in easier work. So
it actually hooks them in andgets them to, to want to do that
(23:59):
work, because they know thatyou're there to help them to be
successful to go through there.
So we see some overlap then,with the other big areas of
motivation and engagement, ifthey're engaging in discussion
and collaboration that's relatedto creating a more cognitively
challenging environment forthem, because they're not just
answering questions. They'reactually engaging in talk with
(24:21):
others and grappling with theseideas with other people. So when
we worked with readers who foundreading difficult, some of them,
you know, a sixth grader readingat a third grade level, we would
be using books that would targetparticular skills that they
needed around decoding orbuilding fluency and things like
that. But we were also doingwork at that age appropriate a
(24:42):
grade appropriate level as well.
And we would create text setsaround this to say, well, you
know, this is the grade or ageappropriate book related to this
topic or this idea, and then wehave some other books that are
more quote unquote, leveled forthe student, and maybe even some
(25:06):
decodable text in there if, ifthat's an area that they're
working on. And then, of course,multimodal texts with, you know,
websites and, and things likethat, so that this whole text
set was there, and the studentwouldn't just hear the grade
level book being read to them.
But we'd be mediating for thestudent how they were actually
reading part of that text ontheir own, even if it was just
(25:28):
sections of it. So that they hadto grapple with that more
complex syntax and vocabulary.
And not just hear it forlistening vocabulary, but
actually be reading through itand thinking about it, but the
tutor was always there tosupport them.
Lindsay Persohn (25:46):
Seeing as you're, as you're explaining
these concepts, for us, the wordthat keeps coming back to my
mind is authenticity. Youmentioned authentic purpose, you
mentioned sort of the the waythat we can use these strategic
actions in order to navigatetexts, rather than just
approaching them as these littleisolated skills that we sort of
sprinkle in throughout the day.
And even I think that cognitivechallenge, you know, whenever we
(26:07):
give students texts that havesome sort of authentic meaning
to them, or given that authenticpurpose that you mentioned, yes,
of course, it increasesmotivation and engagement,
right, because we see that it'srelevant to our lives, you know,
learning for the sake of doingschool is never as meaningful as
learning for the sake of, youknow, what I want to learn or
(26:28):
what I want to get out of mylife, we're building to my own
goals, my own aspirations. Andso as you were talking, I just
kept thinking about howauthentic really everything
you're telling us is, right,we're talking about authentic
conversations with each otheras, as teachers, as coaches, you
know, as peer teachers, butalso, of course, with children
(26:49):
and giving them those real,genuinely authentic experiences.
Dana Robertson (26:54):
Yeah, and it connects right to the cognitive
psychology literature aroundinterest based work. And one of
the ways that teachers cancreate those interest based
contexts without just giving itover to the kids to say you can
do whatever you want, becauseit's your interests. But I have
(27:15):
this curriculum topic that Ineed to teach, because it's part
of my curriculum. And this iswhat we're going to do, I can
still build that situationalinterest as the psychologist
referred to it. Bycontextualizing that topic for
them in a relevant way for theirlives, I can build relevance and
(27:36):
spark curiosity in this topicthat may be more abstract,
because it's, you know, historyor something related to science.
But I can now make it relevantfor them by contextualizing it.
And that might spark somesituational interest to hook
them in. And then my job is tocreate that engaging
(27:57):
environment, give them theconditions to be successful in
doing the work, so that thatinterest is maintained. And
maybe it even turns into a newindividual interest that they
pursue, we don't know. But, youknow, interest based teaching is
not about just turning it overto the kids and say, you get to
(28:18):
do whatever you want. It's it'ssome of that to explore that.
But it's also our job asteachers to create authentic
opportunities for them topossibly learn some new
interests and to try out somenew ideas in ways to see who
they want to be, or multipleways of who they want to be when
they're older.
Lindsay Persohn (28:39):
I hope this sounds like opportunity for
listeners, particularlylisteners who may be working in
spaces where they feel boxed inby mandates, or, you know,
curricular choices that weremade sort of above their pay
grade, so to speak, I hope thisdoes sound a lot like
opportunity for bringing thatauthenticity back to the
classroom space. You mentioned,like whenever you can find that
(29:01):
situational interest wheneveryou can open up those
possibilities, you know, findthe good and exploit it right?
And how do you how do you makethat interesting and relevant?
First yourself, I think, as ateacher, but then also to your
students.
Dana Robertson (29:15):
Right? And you know, maybe I have a particular
novel that I have to teach,because that's what my
curriculum says I'm supposed toteach. But I can still
contextualize that for thelearners that are in front of
me, and make it relevant,hopefully, in some way for them
to try to hook them in.
Lindsay Persohn (29:30):
Right.
Absolutely. And we and we dohave many tools at our disposal.
I think in this day and age whenI think most teachers are
probably pretty tech savvy bythis point, especially if
they've survived through COVID.
You know, we found lots of waysto use technology to bring
voices and images and you know,those multimodal components into
our classroom in order to helpcreate interest. So those are
(29:52):
really, really great tips. Dana,
Dana Robertson (29:53):
and I think another part to it is is not
only establishing the relevanceon the part of teachers, you
know, we want to contextualizethe work for them. But we also
have to be willing to maybe bevulnerable a little bit, because
we have to be willing to cedecontrol a little bit, as well,
(30:16):
you know, if, if we're reallygoing to approach your teaching
as a way where we're all part ofthis collective conversation,
students and teacher together,or coach and teachers, together,
the people who are in theconversation with you, as the
teacher, or as the coach, maybring up ideas that weren't part
of your plan, and are we goingto dismiss it? Or are we going
(30:39):
to value it and see how it fitsinto the conversation. And maybe
in the long run, it doesn'treally fit in, because it was a
misunderstanding in some way.
But maybe it does fit in. Andit's just something that we had
never thought about before. Soit's about creating that
contextualization of thatauthenticity. But it's also
(31:00):
about this willingness to seekcontrol a little bit. And to be
a little bit vulnerable, as theteacher or the leader of
whatever context, it happens tobe to say that others are
bringing some something to thisconversation, I need to not just
respond with the ideas that Ialready wanted to respond with,
but actually have to listen tothem and think about it. And
(31:21):
then be willing to explore thoseideas further, to see whether
it's something that actually hassome traction, or whether it
actually wasn't misunderstandingthat we need to then right in
some way.
Lindsay Persohn (31:37):
What a valuable way to think about that. And I
think that that does lead usright back to where we started
right? With those authenticconversations, and how, you
know, you can't have aconversation without listening,
right? And those conversationalturns are all based on what
someone else says and ourresponse to it. So you're
absolutely right, we have to bewilling to reconsider what we
think we know. And topotentially, you know, fall down
(31:59):
a rabbit hole and see see what'sthere and consider and
reconsider. Yes. So Dana, giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Dana Robertson (32:11):
Well, I think part of that message is has been
what we've been talking aboutthis whole time is that it is
possible for us to create reallymeaningful and purposeful
contexts for for learning tohappen. Even if it is curriculum
that's been provided to us, youknow, I can have my packaged
curriculum, and still use thatin adaptive ways to make it
(32:35):
relevant for my students. Andthe only one that can make it
relevant for the students is theteacher, the curriculum can't
make it relevant for them,because the curriculum doesn't
know the students, the teacherknows the students. And this is
where that art part of theteaching comes in. You know, we
have our science that's tellingus, you know, here are the
(32:56):
practices that are generallymost effective, generally most
effective, but it's the teacherthat then artfully brings those
in and knows the students andknows how to make it relevant
and knows how to make itengaging, that merges those two
together. So I think that's partof it is that we have that
(33:17):
opportunity to do that to createthose purposeful contexts for
students, and foradministrators, coaches,
literacy leaders, professionaldevelopment providers, to make
it relevant and purposeful forthe teachers, and to honor their
voices in the learning that theteachers are engaged in, in the
(33:40):
school as well. I mean, if we'rejust going to keep creating PD
opportunities, and havingsomeone outside of the
classroom, just deciding whatthose topics are going to be and
hiring someone to come in to doit. I think we're just going to
see the same trajectory thatwe've been on of, okay, here's a
new idea, here's a new idea, butthe teachers aren't connecting
(34:03):
it into their context to see howit's actually useful to them and
things go on. So how do weinvolve teachers in the decision
making process so that we'reactually valuing them, and the
decisions that they can help usmake around what they need to
actually teach their studentsthe best and the teachers know
the students the best than theteachers are the most poised to
(34:26):
understand what they might needto help their students learn. So
we need their voices in terms ofhow we're going to engage them
in ongoing learningopportunities as well. And you
know, I think it's not until weactually embody those
dispositions and practices thatempower people and uphold that
(34:48):
they actually matter whetherit's the adult or the students
in their lives, that we will seesustainable social change where
we're all much more than we'retold that we are
Lindsay Persohn (34:59):
I as you were describing that, Dana, I got
this sort of visual image of,you know, we have this sort of
cycle and a lot of spaces rightnow, where I think, you know, it
can be a very discouragingconversation when teachers are
not treated as experts, even ashumans in some instances, and
neither are students. But what Ithink you're giving us here are
(35:20):
some real tangible ways that wecan work together to sort of
interrupt that cycle, if it ishappening in our own spaces and
say, No, actually, you know, wedo know a few things, right? We
know about who our students are,we know our content, we know how
to engage our students in thelearning. So I'm going to take
this one back, right, rather,rather than just sort of playing
(35:41):
the game or reading the script,but instead, how do we then you
used a term, you said, we canuse that package curriculum in
adaptive ways. And I think thatthat is, you know, it gives me a
lot of hope for what teachingcan look like. And I think it
does give teachers of of anylevel any grade level an
opportunity to maybe make somepositive changes starting today,
(36:04):
right, starting tomorrow? How doyou work to contextualize the
work that we're doing with kidsin order to make it relevant to
them, and therefore make it moreinteresting, more positive, more
productive, and disrupt any sortof negative cycles that we may
be experiencing in our schoolspaces. So that message gives me
a lot of hope,
Dana Robertson (36:23):
and contextualize it for the kids.
But you could also contextualizeit for the adults as well.
Right? Absolutely. How do youmake it relevant for them, as
well?
Lindsay Persohn (36:31):
Absolutely.
Well, Dana, thank you so muchfor your time today. Thank you
for sharing your ideas. Andthank you for your contributions
to the field of education.
Dana Robertson (36:39):
Thank you so much, Lindsay. It's been my
pleasure to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (36:43):
Dr. Dana Robertson is known for his work
focused on classroom discussionand teachers talk reading and
writing challenges and literacy,professional learning through
coaching and whole schoolliteracy improvement. through
each of these projects. He hassought ways to provide equitable
and inclusive literacyopportunities to teachers and
school aged children in waysthat are humanizing agentive and
(37:05):
sustainable. In 2013, Dr.
Robertson was named an EmergingScholar with the reading Hall of
Fame. He's also been awarded theelbogen Meritus classroom
teaching award, the MarvinMillgate engaged faculty award
and the Mary garland earlycareer fellowship all from the
University of Wyoming. He is afrequent presenter at national
(37:26):
and international conferences,and he was a collaborating
author on the InternationalLiteracy associations standards
for the preparation of literacyprofessionals, published in
2017, which serve ascredentialing standards for the
preparation of literacyprofessionals at institutions of
higher education throughout theUnited States. He serves as a
board member at large for theInternational Literacy
(37:48):
Association and was a past boardmember for the literacy Research
Association. He has co authoredtwo books, co edited a third
book focused on equitable andsustainable literacy
professional learning, and haspublished numerous book chapters
and articles and literacyeducation journals, including
journal of literacy researchtheory into practice,
(38:09):
professional development andeducation, the reading teacher
reading psychology, languagearts, voices from the middle and
journal of adolescent and adultliteracy. He is a former
elementary classroom teacher,literacy specialist and literacy
coach. He also formerly servedas the executive director for
the literacy Research Center andclinic and associate professor
(38:29):
in the School of TeacherEducation at the University of
Wyoming, where he held theEverett D and Elizabeth Lance
distinguished professor ineducation appointment from 2019
to 2021. Dr. Dana a. Robertsonis currently an associate
professor of reading andliteracy in the School of
Education at Virginia Tech. Forthe good of all students,
(38:52):
classroom caffeine aims toenergize education research and
practice. If this show providesyou with things to think about,
don't keep it a secret.
Subscribe, like and review thispodcast through your preferred
podcast provider. I also inviteyou to connect with the show
through our website at WWW dotclassroom caffeine.com where you
(39:19):
can learn more about each guest.
Find transcripts for manyepisodes, explore episode topics
using our tagging feature,support podcast, research,
through our survey, request anepisode topic or a potential
guest or share your ownquestions that we might respond
to through the show. We wouldlove to hear from you. As
(39:39):
always, I raise my mug to youteachers. Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. DanaRobertson talks to us about
connections between conversationand music, the power of
motivation and engagement andopportunities for creating
meaningful context for learningin schools. Dana is known for
his work focused on classroomdiscourse and teachers talk,
(00:53):
reading and writing challengesand literacy, professional
learning through coaching andwhole school literacy
improvement. through each ofthese projects, he has sought
ways to provide equitable andinclusive literacy opportunities
to teachers and school agedchildren in ways that are
humanizing agentive andsustainable. He has received
numerous awards for his researchand teaching. Dr. Dana a.
(01:17):
Robertson is an associateprofessor of reading and
literacy in the School ofEducation at Virginia Tech. For
more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
(01:38):
your teaching practice. Dana,thank you for joining me.
Welcome to the show.
Dana Robertson (01:44):
Lindsay, thank you so much. It's really a
pleasure to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (01:47):
Thank you. So from your own experiences in
education, will you share withus one or two moments that
inform your thinking now?
Dana Robertson (01:55):
Sure, I think my first experience is probably not
going to be one that youexpected. Because my first
experience actually relates tomusic. I was immersed in music
early on, I think it was aboutfour years old or so is as early
as I can remember. There wasalways vinyl, LPs playing in the
(02:17):
house, a lot of big band jazzand others that had featured
drummers. And as you mightexpect, now, I am a drummer and
used to be a professionaldrummer, you know, but back then
I used to set up pots and pansand wooden spoons, and I was
learning to listen to thelanguage of the musicians from
(02:37):
very early on. And then, overthe decades from that point, of
course, my parents realized thatthis was not just a passing
fade. And you know, theypurchased me a drum set, and
then further drum sets andfurther drum sets. But all
throughout this time, justlistening to music, and learning
(02:58):
from the musicians what they'redoing, how they were playing
with each other. And then ofcourse, once I started playing
with other people doing the samething, and what I've come to
realize, reflecting back on itis that I was learning to
communicate and listen. So thatI was saying what I said
musically in response to whatothers contributed. So when
(03:23):
musicians are playing together,you're always trying to
hopefully invite space foreveryone to be part of the
conversation. And it's thatunderstanding of how our
interaction collectively asmusicians, shapes the music that
we're creating. And I neverthought about this at first when
I was, you know, when I firstbecame a researcher, in a
(03:45):
literacy scholar, but uponreflecting upon it, I realized
that a lot of the work that I donow has that roots in this idea
of how we're creating space, andlistening and communicating to
each other, so that we can havea collective voice in terms of
what we're trying to say. So Iwould say that that was probably
(04:07):
the first experience. It wasn'ta single experience, but you
know, his experience over many,many decades. And then I became
tired of being a touringmusician. And I moved into
education, but not to teachmusic to teach elementary
school. And I was a fifth gradeteacher in Massachusetts. And
(04:29):
this is where the secondexperience that I think has been
a transformational experiencefor me. Of course, I was in my
first year and you know, one ofthe lessons didn't go well. It
happens to all of us. I don'teven remember what the topic of
the lesson was. But a lessondidn't go well. And I'm here,
you know, my first yearteaching. I go over to my mentor
(04:51):
teacher, Miss Lafave. I stillcall her by her last name
because she was actually one ofmy teachers when I was a student
and I was working with her thenas co-teachers, so I went over
to her and we were sitting downbecause this is what we did
after school each day, you know,we sat and we talked and we
reflected, and we shared ideas.
And I was just talking about howthe lesson didn't go well. And
you know, the students weredoing this, and students were
(05:12):
doing this and the students, youknow, they didn't get this part.
And she stopped me. She said,Wait, she said, What were you
doing? And that right there,stuck with me? Because I had to
think about, well, what was Idoing at this point when the
students weren't doing what Iwanted them to do? And it
stopped me. And I realized fromthat point that I started paying
(05:36):
closer attention to how studentsresponded to what I did in the
classroom, and to what I said,and I started to realize that
how I spoke, when I'm deliveringthe instruction really mattered.
My language choices helped setthe tone for the classroom, not
only in terms of shapingmanagement, but it also seemed
to be that my language choiceswere very consequential for
(06:00):
student learning. So this aspectof teacher talk teacher
language, stuck with me as Imoved into my doctoral study and
into the work that I do now. Andthat importance of reflection
and language
Lindsay Persohn (06:19):
two wonderfully rich examples. I think, the
reason I asked that question isbecause I feel everyone has
these moments, or these sort ofinspirational experiences that
lead us to the work that we do.
And I love that idea of thinkingof music as a conversation, and
how that can in fact, inform theway that we think about how we
talk with students, how we sortof run the band, so to speak,
(06:42):
right in our own classrooms,because it is so important, the
choices we make in our language,they do impact the climate, the
the learning, the understandingthe content, and just that sense
of community. So thank you somuch for those really wonderful,
rich examples, Dana.
Dana Robertson (07:01):
Yeah, sure. And like I said, I didn't even
realize it. At first, I wasn'tconsciously making that, that
link to music. It wasn't until Iwas trying to actually reflect
on all of the work that I hadbeen doing as a researcher for
the last several years. Thatthat first, you know, came to my
mind, I was like, Oh, wait, thisis exactly like I was doing when
(07:23):
I was playing music, and how Iplay music with other people.
Lindsay Persohn (07:27):
Yeah, and I the other reason I think I love that
example so much is because it isa typical of how we think about
the way classrooms work. Right.
And that sense of community, youknow, in my experience, it just,
it is so very important. Andthinking about how music and the
arts can help us to expand ourthinking about our classroom
(07:48):
spaces beyond those four walls.
It reminds me you know, thateverything is connected, which I
think also sometimes can be easyto forget when we get into the
day to day of teaching. So yeah,just really wonderful examples.
Thank you.
Dana Robertson (08:02):
Yeah. And the conversation is not established
ahead of time. You know, it'snot scripted out. It's, it's
improvised, but you're bringingto that improvisation, you know,
all of the beliefs anddispositions and everything that
you hold. But you're stillimprovising that conversation as
you're moving forward tohopefully reach the goals that
(08:23):
you have set.
Lindsay Persohn (08:24):
That's right.
And that that actually remindsme of a conversation I had with
Kevin Leander about some of thework that he's doing with
improvisation and teachertraining. So there's a
connection for listeners aswell. Yeah, that's really great
stuff. So Dana, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Dana Robertson (08:40):
Well, I think, as I just talked about there,
from those experiences, in termsof having that conversation, and
then thinking about when Ibecame a teacher, and and the
importance of language, the roleof language has always been
central to the work that I'mdoing, and have been doing over
the last decade or so. Butlanguages been central in
(09:03):
different ways, depending on onwhat the work is. And I've
always tried to take a verypragmatic stance to the research
that I'm doing, not designingstudies that are, you know, in
a, quote unquote, laboratorycontext and things like that,
but, but working with teacherswithin their socially situated
(09:28):
contexts, around ideas that havebeen not only identified by me,
but co identified by me and theteachers together to be
legitimate areas of focus ofinquiry for the work that we're
engaged in. And I'm not I don'tsay that I don't do laboratory
type research or things likethat. Because I don't think that
(09:50):
that work is important. It'sabsolutely essential, but we
also need work that's workingwith teachers as they're trying
to grapple with particularproblems or issues that arise As
in their classrooms as well, andhow they might work to translate
particular research findingsinto practice within their
classroom to help their studentslearn more. So, language has
(10:12):
always been a focus, whether itwas my dissertation where I was
a coach, and there was teachersthat were reflecting on their
talk that they were using withtheir students through listening
to audio recordings ofthemselves after they provided
their instruction, or actuallytranscribing their talk to be
(10:34):
very reflective to say, how wasI providing explanations of how
to engage in this comprehensionstrategy work, which happened to
be the focus of thedissertation? So again, it was
this idea of what role was mylanguage choices as a teacher
having in influencing the thelearning that was going on, and
then that shifted over time tothink about characteristics of
(11:00):
effective instruction around,you know, what are the kinds of
big idea characteristics that Ifelt and my colleagues that I
was working with felt, wereimportant to have as part of our
work, especially when workingwith students who find reading
and writing challenging, andafter reviewing research, we
landed on ideas of motivationand engagement, as one of the
(11:26):
first and foremost things, notto say that motivation always
precedes literacy achievement,because we know that students
become more more motivated, whenthey're successful at engaging
in work. But we didn't want tohold off on motivation and
engagement until students weresuccessful readers, we wanted to
(11:48):
start with that right from thebeginning. But then also
thinking about instructionalintensity and teaching
strategies, so that studentscould apply those strategies to
actually achieve knowledge basedgoals. So we hear a lot right
now about, you know, knowledgebuilding curriculum and things
like that. And, and I love it,because I've been writing about
(12:10):
that, since like, 2013, abouthaving these knowledge goals
that we're trying to work on.
And I'm not saying that I cameup with the idea of knowledge
based, you know, reading andwriting either, but it was
drawing from that literature. SoI'm glad to see it's really, you
know, moving to the forefrontnow. But that work again, we
focused that work aroundthinking about teachers,
(12:33):
language choices, as levers forthinking about motivation, and
engagement, and for teachingstrategies, to students that
find reading and writingchallenging, and us as coaches
or other coaches that we wereworking with, we're engaging in
that work, to use video as abasis of reflection. So again,
(12:56):
the ideas of language andreflection are coming in using
videos as a basis of reflectionto think about how our talk was
helping to create instructionalintensity and to create an
engaging environment to thethings like that. And then that
work from the dissertation. Andthe idea of characteristics of
(13:17):
effective instruction, and videobased reflection, has merged
into what I've been exploringnow around coaching discourse,
because all of the work thatcame prior was related to
coaching, because coaches werepart of those conversations. But
what I'm starting to explore ishow coaches or other PD
(13:40):
providers or professionallearning providers, talk with
teachers, you know, because wehear about the importance of,
you know, a coach, having atrusting relationship and things
like that, but what does thatreally mean, you know, you know,
how do we talk with teachers ina way that helps build that
relational understanding betweenthe two, so that teachers are
(14:01):
not just talked to, but actuallytalked with, as SPD providers.
So all of this work aroundlanguage, when I was reflecting
upon it, it linked back to thoseideas that I talked about with
music earlier about how we'reall part of the collective
(14:21):
conversation when we're playingmusic, because the piece of
music comes out is the result ofall of us being there. So why
aren't our coachingconversations and our PD
conversations the same? And whyisn't our work with teachers and
students the same where all ofour voices are collectively
valued and and seen as importantto the conversation? So that's
(14:43):
really where I've been trying toexplore the coaching work is to
say what is the coachingdiscourse that's happening
around instances where teachersare acting in an agent active
way where they're where they'reexercising their agency because
They know what they need fortheir students in their context.
But maybe me as a coach onproviding a little bit of
(15:06):
support or brainstormingtogether with them, not giving
them the right answers, butbrainstorming and problem
solving with them to thinkabout, well, what are we doing?
And how could we tweak it alittle bit, to help make it a
little bit more effective orsuccessful as we're working with
students. So I think it reallyjust comes back to that
(15:29):
relational understanding of talkand reflection, language
choices, and we're all in ittogether.
Lindsay Persohn (15:40):
It really does paint a very, I would even say
motivating picture of whatschool environments could be
like, what teaching could looklike, if we do in fact, have the
sort of Symphony of voices thatcomes together in order to
create those positive andproductive learning
environments, and not just forstudents? Right, they should be
positive and productive learningenvironments for for teachers as
(16:01):
well, we are all we're alwaysgrowing and learning, we're
always trying to hone our craft.
And so I love that idea of whatthose conversations could look
like in order to supportteachers, as they work in
agentive ways. And as they areexpressing what they need for
their students and forthemselves.
Dana Robertson (16:17):
And we talked about that, you know, we talked
about, you know, differentiatinginstruction for students all the
time. And we know that we shouldbe differentiating instruction
and providing responsiveinstruction. But that's
important for the adults toknow, because if I'm providing
PD on vocabulary instruction,not all of those teachers are
going to come with the samefunds of knowledge about
(16:38):
vocabulary. So why can't we allcollectively understand
vocabulary? While we're allexploring the little areas of
vocabulary that we need to workon with our students that are in
front of us at this time?
Lindsay Persohn (16:52):
Right, right. I think that's I think that's such
a great question. And I'vereflected on that also, in my
own teaching practice, you know,whenever all the teachers come
together, all at one time totalk about the exact same ideas
without the acknowledgement thatwe're all in different places in
our professional learning, andand our content knowledge even
you know, it is a, I think it'sa an important question. And I
(17:13):
hope it's one that is beingasked in many spaces in this
world in order to supportteachers. So Dana, you mentioned
the idea that or that your workshifted to consider
characteristics of effectiveinstruction, and specifically
motivation and engagement andthen on through discourse around
teaching language choices forteachers, and discourse and
(17:35):
coaching. I feel as thoughmotivation engagement gives us
something really concrete tothink about when we consider
what are the most effectivepractices in our classrooms? Did
you have any other tips youmight be able to offer to
listeners around thosecharacteristics you identified
particularly effectiveinstruction?
Dana Robertson (17:52):
Yeah, so the the first one was this idea of of
creating a motivated andengaging environment. And from
this work, we drew a lot on JohnGuthrie and colleagues work on
concept oriented readinginstruction, around the types of
teaching actions that seem to becorrelated with increased
(18:16):
reading achievement overall, andstrategy use and things like
that. So what they have found intheir research, and what we had
then taken up and brought intoour clinical context, when we
were working with students thatfound reading and writing
challenging was that there werereally four key teaching
(18:37):
practices. The first one was tohave that knowledge focus, to
have knowledge driven goals. Andthis is just that long standing
idea of having that relevantpurpose for teaching particular
skills and strategies. You know,we're not teaching students to
identify cause and effect or towrite a summary, they have to be
(18:59):
able to summarize, in order tounderstand this bigger idea
that's related to the realworld. So that was one of those
teaching actions is alwaysmaking sure that, you know,
we're not just teaching theskills and strategies, but we're
teaching those in service of alarger outcome, which is
(19:20):
knowledge based, you know, worldworld knowledge based type of
thing. And then from there, it'sthe idea of using interesting
texts. I mean, there's just acorrelation with huge effect
sizes of over 1.0 When the textsare interesting to students, and
that doesn't mean that you givethem only the text that they
(19:41):
want to read it all the times.
But if it's a curricular topic,we're really doing our due
diligence to make sure that wehave texts that are appealing to
look at and are written in a waythat have enough grist and
content to grapple with andthings like that. But then of
course, there's also time forthem to to read texts have their
own interest as well. Becausethe other teaching action is
(20:03):
there's some opportunity forchoice. And when I talk about
choice with teachers, I oftenhear teachers say, Well, I can't
just let students do whateverthey want. And that's not what
choice actually is, there's waysto give what I refer to as many
choices. You know, we're allreading about the Holocaust. But
here's a bin of books on theHolocaust. And you can choose
(20:24):
which one you want to read. orWe're all reading this book
about the Holocaust, but you canchoose to read it with a partner
or on your own. And then there'sopportunities where they're
choosing books, on their own fortheir own topics, you know, some
self selected reading that theywant to do as well. So the idea
of choice is another action thatincreases motivation and
(20:45):
engagement. And thenopportunities for collaboration.
You know, when when kids areworking together, they're more
motivated. So give them moreopportunities, to collaborate,
to talk together to discuss, andit's going to be more
motivating, but also they'regoing to understand more. And
they're going to be able tocreate more in the in their
(21:05):
writing when they're discussingand talking together. So the
other broad category is thinkingabout instructional intensity,
because we want to think abouthow we're using our time. And
these are ideas of teachingstudents strategic actions, not
in the same way of like for thenext couple of weeks, we're
going to, I'm going to teach youhow to make predictions. And now
(21:26):
I'm going to teach you how tomake connections. And now we're
going to do this. But the ideaof teaching students how to you
have this book in front of you?
What do you do now tosuccessfully navigate your way
through the book? What kinds ofthings do you do before you
start reading? What kinds ofthings should you be doing while
(21:48):
you're reading? And what kindsof things might you do when
you're done reading, either donereading with the book or done
reading for the day? So thosekinds of integrated strategic
actions, which incorporate allof those strategies of
predicting and makingconnections, and summarizing and
all of that, but they're reallythought about as more open ended
(22:09):
questions, kind of mergesstrategies with the kind of work
that Margaret McCowan and othersdid around questioning the
author, where, you know, you'reasking the author, you know,
what was the author trying tosay, here, you know, as a
monitoring strategy, you know,things like that. So, having
those strategic actions that areopen ended and can get across
(22:33):
books and contexts and contentareas, increases intensity,
because you're using it moreoften. Now. It's not just an
isolated thing. And then ofcourse, thinking about pacing,
and the match of of books toreaders, is going to help to
create the instructionalintensity. And then the last big
(22:53):
idea that we talked about isworking with students that find
reading and writing challenging,is actually cognitive challenge
for them. Because we've knownfor decades that the students
who aren't reading as wellaren't writing as well typically
read less words during the day,they engage in less discussion.
(23:14):
They're doing more, you know,question answering about short
little books that they'rereading and things like that, in
the text that they're readingdon't have a lot of grist in
them. So this idea of how we cancreate cognitively challenging
tasks for them, but mediate itin a way so that students can
access that content. And fromthe motivation research, the
(23:38):
engagement research, such asthat Guthrie and others did
tasks that are slightlychallenging, yet students feel
that they could still besuccessful at it with the right
help, is actually more engagingthan engaging in easier work. So
it actually hooks them in andgets them to, to want to do that
(23:59):
work, because they know thatyou're there to help them to be
successful to go through there.
So we see some overlap then,with the other big areas of
motivation and engagement, ifthey're engaging in discussion
and collaboration that's relatedto creating a more cognitively
challenging environment forthem, because they're not just
answering questions. They'reactually engaging in talk with
(24:21):
others and grappling with theseideas with other people. So when
we worked with readers who foundreading difficult, some of them,
you know, a sixth grader readingat a third grade level, we would
be using books that would targetparticular skills that they
needed around decoding orbuilding fluency and things like
that. But we were also doingwork at that age appropriate a
(24:42):
grade appropriate level as well.
And we would create text setsaround this to say, well, you
know, this is the grade or ageappropriate book related to this
topic or this idea, and then wehave some other books that are
more quote unquote, leveled forthe student, and maybe even some
(25:06):
decodable text in there if, ifthat's an area that they're
working on. And then, of course,multimodal texts with, you know,
websites and, and things likethat, so that this whole text
set was there, and the studentwouldn't just hear the grade
level book being read to them.
But we'd be mediating for thestudent how they were actually
reading part of that text ontheir own, even if it was just
(25:28):
sections of it. So that they hadto grapple with that more
complex syntax and vocabulary.
And not just hear it forlistening vocabulary, but
actually be reading through itand thinking about it, but the
tutor was always there tosupport them.
Lindsay Persohn (25:46):
Seeing as you're, as you're explaining
these concepts, for us, the wordthat keeps coming back to my
mind is authenticity. Youmentioned authentic purpose, you
mentioned sort of the the waythat we can use these strategic
actions in order to navigatetexts, rather than just
approaching them as these littleisolated skills that we sort of
sprinkle in throughout the day.
And even I think that cognitivechallenge, you know, whenever we
(26:07):
give students texts that havesome sort of authentic meaning
to them, or given that authenticpurpose that you mentioned, yes,
of course, it increasesmotivation and engagement,
right, because we see that it'srelevant to our lives, you know,
learning for the sake of doingschool is never as meaningful as
learning for the sake of, youknow, what I want to learn or
(26:28):
what I want to get out of mylife, we're building to my own
goals, my own aspirations. Andso as you were talking, I just
kept thinking about howauthentic really everything
you're telling us is, right,we're talking about authentic
conversations with each otheras, as teachers, as coaches, you
know, as peer teachers, butalso, of course, with children
(26:49):
and giving them those real,genuinely authentic experiences.
Dana Robertson (26:54):
Yeah, and it connects right to the cognitive
psychology literature aroundinterest based work. And one of
the ways that teachers cancreate those interest based
contexts without just giving itover to the kids to say you can
do whatever you want, becauseit's your interests. But I have
(27:15):
this curriculum topic that Ineed to teach, because it's part
of my curriculum. And this iswhat we're going to do, I can
still build that situationalinterest as the psychologist
referred to it. Bycontextualizing that topic for
them in a relevant way for theirlives, I can build relevance and
(27:36):
spark curiosity in this topicthat may be more abstract,
because it's, you know, historyor something related to science.
But I can now make it relevantfor them by contextualizing it.
And that might spark somesituational interest to hook
them in. And then my job is tocreate that engaging
(27:57):
environment, give them theconditions to be successful in
doing the work, so that thatinterest is maintained. And
maybe it even turns into a newindividual interest that they
pursue, we don't know. But, youknow, interest based teaching is
not about just turning it overto the kids and say, you get to
(28:18):
do whatever you want. It's it'ssome of that to explore that.
But it's also our job asteachers to create authentic
opportunities for them topossibly learn some new
interests and to try out somenew ideas in ways to see who
they want to be, or multipleways of who they want to be when
they're older.
Lindsay Persohn (28:39):
I hope this sounds like opportunity for
listeners, particularlylisteners who may be working in
spaces where they feel boxed inby mandates, or, you know,
curricular choices that weremade sort of above their pay
grade, so to speak, I hope thisdoes sound a lot like
opportunity for bringing thatauthenticity back to the
classroom space. You mentioned,like whenever you can find that
(29:01):
situational interest wheneveryou can open up those
possibilities, you know, findthe good and exploit it right?
And how do you how do you makethat interesting and relevant?
First yourself, I think, as ateacher, but then also to your
students.
Dana Robertson (29:15):
Right? And you know, maybe I have a particular
novel that I have to teach,because that's what my
curriculum says I'm supposed toteach. But I can still
contextualize that for thelearners that are in front of
me, and make it relevant,hopefully, in some way for them
to try to hook them in.
Lindsay Persohn (29:30):
Right.
Absolutely. And we and we dohave many tools at our disposal.
I think in this day and age whenI think most teachers are
probably pretty tech savvy bythis point, especially if
they've survived through COVID.
You know, we found lots of waysto use technology to bring
voices and images and you know,those multimodal components into
our classroom in order to helpcreate interest. So those are
(29:52):
really, really great tips. Dana,
Dana Robertson (29:53):
and I think another part to it is is not
only establishing the relevanceon the part of teachers, you
know, we want to contextualizethe work for them. But we also
have to be willing to maybe bevulnerable a little bit, because
we have to be willing to cedecontrol a little bit, as well,
(30:16):
you know, if, if we're reallygoing to approach your teaching
as a way where we're all part ofthis collective conversation,
students and teacher together,or coach and teachers, together,
the people who are in theconversation with you, as the
teacher, or as the coach, maybring up ideas that weren't part
of your plan, and are we goingto dismiss it? Or are we going
(30:39):
to value it and see how it fitsinto the conversation. And maybe
in the long run, it doesn'treally fit in, because it was a
misunderstanding in some way.
But maybe it does fit in. Andit's just something that we had
never thought about before. Soit's about creating that
contextualization of thatauthenticity. But it's also
(31:00):
about this willingness to seekcontrol a little bit. And to be
a little bit vulnerable, as theteacher or the leader of
whatever context, it happens tobe to say that others are
bringing some something to thisconversation, I need to not just
respond with the ideas that Ialready wanted to respond with,
but actually have to listen tothem and think about it. And
(31:21):
then be willing to explore thoseideas further, to see whether
it's something that actually hassome traction, or whether it
actually wasn't misunderstandingthat we need to then right in
some way.
Lindsay Persohn (31:37):
What a valuable way to think about that. And I
think that that does lead usright back to where we started
right? With those authenticconversations, and how, you
know, you can't have aconversation without listening,
right? And those conversationalturns are all based on what
someone else says and ourresponse to it. So you're
absolutely right, we have to bewilling to reconsider what we
think we know. And topotentially, you know, fall down
(31:59):
a rabbit hole and see see what'sthere and consider and
reconsider. Yes. So Dana, giventhe challenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Dana Robertson (32:11):
Well, I think part of that message is has been
what we've been talking aboutthis whole time is that it is
possible for us to create reallymeaningful and purposeful
contexts for for learning tohappen. Even if it is curriculum
that's been provided to us, youknow, I can have my packaged
curriculum, and still use thatin adaptive ways to make it
(32:35):
relevant for my students. Andthe only one that can make it
relevant for the students is theteacher, the curriculum can't
make it relevant for them,because the curriculum doesn't
know the students, the teacherknows the students. And this is
where that art part of theteaching comes in. You know, we
have our science that's tellingus, you know, here are the
(32:56):
practices that are generallymost effective, generally most
effective, but it's the teacherthat then artfully brings those
in and knows the students andknows how to make it relevant
and knows how to make itengaging, that merges those two
together. So I think that's partof it is that we have that
(33:17):
opportunity to do that to createthose purposeful contexts for
students, and foradministrators, coaches,
literacy leaders, professionaldevelopment providers, to make
it relevant and purposeful forthe teachers, and to honor their
voices in the learning that theteachers are engaged in, in the
(33:40):
school as well. I mean, if we'rejust going to keep creating PD
opportunities, and havingsomeone outside of the
classroom, just deciding whatthose topics are going to be and
hiring someone to come in to doit. I think we're just going to
see the same trajectory thatwe've been on of, okay, here's a
new idea, here's a new idea, butthe teachers aren't connecting
(34:03):
it into their context to see howit's actually useful to them and
things go on. So how do weinvolve teachers in the decision
making process so that we'reactually valuing them, and the
decisions that they can help usmake around what they need to
actually teach their studentsthe best and the teachers know
the students the best than theteachers are the most poised to
(34:26):
understand what they might needto help their students learn. So
we need their voices in terms ofhow we're going to engage them
in ongoing learningopportunities as well. And you
know, I think it's not until weactually embody those
dispositions and practices thatempower people and uphold that
(34:48):
they actually matter whetherit's the adult or the students
in their lives, that we will seesustainable social change where
we're all much more than we'retold that we are
Lindsay Persohn (34:59):
I as you were describing that, Dana, I got
this sort of visual image of,you know, we have this sort of
cycle and a lot of spaces rightnow, where I think, you know, it
can be a very discouragingconversation when teachers are
not treated as experts, even ashumans in some instances, and
neither are students. But what Ithink you're giving us here are
(35:20):
some real tangible ways that wecan work together to sort of
interrupt that cycle, if it ishappening in our own spaces and
say, No, actually, you know, wedo know a few things, right? We
know about who our students are,we know our content, we know how
to engage our students in thelearning. So I'm going to take
this one back, right, rather,rather than just sort of playing
(35:41):
the game or reading the script,but instead, how do we then you
used a term, you said, we canuse that package curriculum in
adaptive ways. And I think thatthat is, you know, it gives me a
lot of hope for what teachingcan look like. And I think it
does give teachers of of anylevel any grade level an
opportunity to maybe make somepositive changes starting today,
(36:04):
right, starting tomorrow? How doyou work to contextualize the
work that we're doing with kidsin order to make it relevant to
them, and therefore make it moreinteresting, more positive, more
productive, and disrupt any sortof negative cycles that we may
be experiencing in our schoolspaces. So that message gives me
a lot of hope,
Dana Robertson (36:23):
and contextualize it for the kids.
But you could also contextualizeit for the adults as well.
Right? Absolutely. How do youmake it relevant for them, as
well?
Lindsay Persohn (36:31):
Absolutely.
Well, Dana, thank you so muchfor your time today. Thank you
for sharing your ideas. Andthank you for your contributions
to the field of education.
Dana Robertson (36:39):
Thank you so much, Lindsay. It's been my
pleasure to be here.
Lindsay Persohn (36:43):
Dr. Dana Robertson is known for his work
focused on classroom discussionand teachers talk reading and
writing challenges and literacy,professional learning through
coaching and whole schoolliteracy improvement. through
each of these projects. He hassought ways to provide equitable
and inclusive literacyopportunities to teachers and
school aged children in waysthat are humanizing agentive and
(37:05):
sustainable. In 2013, Dr.
Robertson was named an EmergingScholar with the reading Hall of
Fame. He's also been awarded theelbogen Meritus classroom
teaching award, the MarvinMillgate engaged faculty award
and the Mary garland earlycareer fellowship all from the
University of Wyoming. He is afrequent presenter at national
(37:26):
and international conferences,and he was a collaborating
author on the InternationalLiteracy associations standards
for the preparation of literacyprofessionals, published in
2017, which serve ascredentialing standards for the
preparation of literacyprofessionals at institutions of
higher education throughout theUnited States. He serves as a
board member at large for theInternational Literacy
(37:48):
Association and was a past boardmember for the literacy Research
Association. He has co authoredtwo books, co edited a third
book focused on equitable andsustainable literacy
professional learning, and haspublished numerous book chapters
and articles and literacyeducation journals, including
journal of literacy researchtheory into practice,
(38:09):
professional development andeducation, the reading teacher
reading psychology, languagearts, voices from the middle and
journal of adolescent and adultliteracy. He is a former
elementary classroom teacher,literacy specialist and literacy
coach. He also formerly servedas the executive director for
the literacy Research Center andclinic and associate professor
(38:29):
in the School of TeacherEducation at the University of
Wyoming, where he held theEverett D and Elizabeth Lance
distinguished professor ineducation appointment from 2019
to 2021. Dr. Dana a. Robertsonis currently an associate
professor of reading andliteracy in the School of
Education at Virginia Tech. Forthe good of all students,
(38:52):
classroom caffeine aims toenergize education research and
practice. If this show providesyou with things to think about,
don't keep it a secret.
Subscribe, like and review thispodcast through your preferred
podcast provider. I also inviteyou to connect with the show
through our website at WWW dotclassroom caffeine.com where you
(39:19):
can learn more about each guest.
Find transcripts for manyepisodes, explore episode topics
using our tagging feature,support podcast, research,
through our survey, request anepisode topic or a potential
guest or share your ownquestions that we might respond
to through the show. We wouldlove to hear from you. As
(39:39):
always, I raise my mug to youteachers. Thanks for joining me
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