November 22, 2022 • 21 mins
Dr. Mandie Bevels Dunn is known for her work in the area of teacher wellness. In particular, she studies how teachers who were grieving a death managed their emotions in the context of teaching in English language arts classrooms. In studying teachers’ grief-related emotions, she focuses on how power dynamics between teachers and students influence what teachers disclose or hide about loss experiences when they talk, read, or write with students, and how these power dynamics are further influenced by identity positions such as race, class, and gender. Her article Teaching Literature Following Loss: Teachers’ Adherence to Emotional Rules, published in English Teaching: Practice and Critique in August 2021, won the 2022 Literati Outstanding Paper award from Emerald Publishing.
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2022, Nov. 22). A conversation with Mandie Dunn. (Season 3, No. 12) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/A984-8A74-8A84-715E-DAE8-A
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. Mandie Dunntalks to us about grief, loss,
and the emotional fabric of theclassroom. Mandie is known for
her work in the area of teacherwellness. In particular, she
studies how teachers who weregrieving a death manage their
(00:51):
emotions in the context ofteaching in English language
arts classrooms. Her articleteaching literature following
loss teachers adherence toemotional rules published in
English teaching practice andcritique, In August 2021, won
the 2022 literati outstandingpaper award from Emerald
publishing. For more informationabout our guest, stay tuned to
(01:13):
the end of this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Mandie,thank you for joining me,
welcome to the show.
Mandie Dunn (01:30):
Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Persohn (01:32):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now?
Mandie Dunn (01:39):
Sure. So I think a moment that really set me on the
path that I'm on now in terms ofmy research was actually while I
was in graduate school atMichigan State, and also
teaching pre service teachers aspart of that work, my spouse was
in a life threatening caraccident. You know, it was a
(02:02):
really difficult experience. Forme as someone who had not had a
lot of traumatic experiences inmy life previously, and this one
was quite traumatic, I had apolice officer come to my door,
there was a lot of uncertaintyand unknowns related to a
medical situation for someonethat, you know, was a loved one.
(02:25):
And it was a challenging timefor me personally. And what I
also noticed was that it becamea challenging time for me
professionally, especially inthe context of working with my
students in my class. And Ireally began to wonder, you
know, how much do I share withmy students about what I have
going on outside of class,because it wasn't just a one day
(02:48):
event. For me, this was a many,many months long situation that
I was in. And I felt a lot oftension around how to talk to my
students about what was going onin my personal life. And I also
felt a lot of guilt and judgmentof myself because as a teacher,
(03:10):
during a time when I was tryingto care for a loved one, I was
less patient with my students, Ifelt like I didn't have as much
time to listen to them. I feltmore harried because I was
juggling a lot more outside ofthe classroom. And I was very
lucky that at that time, I wasworking with some wonderful
students who were veryunderstanding of the situation
(03:32):
that I was in. But it didn'tmake it easy for me to navigate
that particular space. And sothat experience happened in my
personal life. And, you know,sometimes people ask, you know,
how's your spouse now, and he'sokay. But it was a really
difficult experience that I wentthrough. And during that time, I
was, as I mentioned, workingwith some pre service teachers,
(03:54):
and one of my students, who Ihad worked with for a couple of
years, lost her mother in asimilar timeframe. And then a
teacher out in the community,whom I've been working with, on
some research, lost a studentwho died by suicide. And because
these two losses happened inclose timing to a trial in my
(04:16):
own life, I think I was payingextra attention to how difficult
it was for them in theirclassrooms. And I felt, you
know, maybe ill prepared as aneducator to support them as they
were working to be teachers inthe classroom. And yet, I also
deeply understood some of theconflict and challenges that
they were experiencing. And thatreally has informed how I've
(04:39):
undertaken work on teacherslives because I realized that
these are really formativeexperiences that shaped teaching
and I wanted to shed more lighton those experiences. The event
that happened in those twoteachers lives also made me
think back to my own teaching inthe K 12 classroom. I taught
(05:00):
ninth and 10th Grade Englishand, you know, my lived
experience and in the preservice teachers experiences
reminded me of some similartensions I had when I was
working with ninth graders. Iremember, you know, a moment
where a class I was teachingkind of pushed me to tears. And
I immediately left the room. AndI've, you know, now that I've
(05:22):
had these new experiences, Ikind of reflect back on that
moment and think to myself,well, why did I leave the room?
Why was that my impulse to hidethat emotion from my students.
And what was happening in thatmoment was actually that I had
had a family member pass away,but I hadn't told my students
about that. And so you know,they were really concerned about
a quiz that they were going tobe taking, and I was trying to
(05:43):
support them in that. But Ifelt, as I mentioned before,
impatient in that moment, andlike, it wasn't the biggest
issue that I was tackling. Andso I think when, you know, that
pushed me to the point of tears,I just wanted to hide that
tension that I was experiencing,rather than share it with my
students. So you know, thoselater experiences while I was in
(06:06):
graduate school, were not allthat different from what I
experienced as a K 12 Teacher,however, I had kind of a new
perspective, in terms of theintensity of the experience.
Lindsay Persohn (06:17):
Well, I really appreciate you sharing that with
us, Mandie, and I feel like thisis a topic that is not often
talked about in schools inteacher preparation programs,
or, as you mentioned, in the K12. Setting. But I also think
these are, unfortunately, reallycommon experiences. I mean, as
you were describing this, Iactually thought of my own
experience related to this, whenI was also a grad student,
(06:41):
teaching pre service teachers,my dad got sick, and
unfortunately passed away. Andof course, the day he passed
away, I was scheduled to teach,you know, he died early in the
morning, and the only thing Iknew to do was to keep going. So
I went to class that day. Andcoincidentally, the read aloud I
(07:05):
was doing with my pre serviceteachers. At that point in the
story, someone died. Yeah. And Iknew that was coming, I wasn't
really sure how to prepare forthat other than to say to my
class, guys, my dad died thismorning. So you may have to help
me through this part. And ofcourse, immediately, they said,
What are you doing here, and Ijust don't know what else to do.
(07:26):
There's nothing I can do for himat this point. And I wasn't
going to, you know, like, likeyou were talking about, there's
a quiz to be done. And like allof these things that have a
sense of urgency within theclassroom, like, I thought,
well, I don't want to have toreschedule and regroup to try to
crunch today's class into thenext one. So I just kept moving.
And I think for me, that wasprobably the best thing to do.
(07:50):
But I can envision that that'snot the best thing for everyone
to do. So I'm hoping that inresponse to this next question,
you'll help us to kind ofnavigate what we do with those
sorts of moments when we come tothem in our teaching career. So
what do you want listeners toknow about your work?
Mandie Dunn (08:07):
I think what I'd like for people to know is that
I want my work to communicatethat the work that teachers do
to build relationships withstudents is part of their
expertise. So sometimes inpublic discourse about teaching
and teachers, there's a lot offocus on students, and we hear
these kind of narratives thatteachers are in it for the
(08:28):
students, not the paycheck. AndI do think that that's true, I
do. However, I think that thenarrative can also get warped a
little bit into discourses thatteachers should be martyrs, that
teachers themselves don't get tomatter as much that they have
to, you know, put themselvesaside for students. And I'm not
suggesting that anyone beinconsiderate of students in any
(08:51):
way. But what I want to suggestis that if building
relationships with students ispart of a teacher's expertise,
meaning it's done in theprofessional context of teaching
and learning, and you know,students and teachers are in a
compulsory relationship,students are required to go to
school teachers are required intheir job to teach students. So
(09:14):
if relationship building is partof expertise and teaching, then
there are potentially times whenthat work is more challenging.
And I think a period ofbereavement is a time when it's
more challenging. And I thinklike you suggested, it could go
a couple different ways. Itmight be more challenging,
because, you know, a teacher isdealing with something in their
(09:37):
personal life, like what youshared, and they kind of feel
this need to to keep going. Andthere's kind of this moment
where students are like, Whatare you doing here? And so
you're navigating a little bitof tension about your decisions.
For other teachers. It may bethat I'm feeling drained, I'm
feeling so overcome with griefthat it's hard for me to get out
(09:58):
of bed and get to school. Andthen I have to be on. And I have
to build these positiverelationships with sometimes
hundreds of students. And it'snot always easy to do that when
you're drained in your personallife because it takes energy to
build relationships. So I wantteachers who have maybe felt
that to know that you're notalone, like, it's not something
(10:20):
that necessarily comes naturallyto us, because it's happening in
a professional context. So Ijust, you know, I hope that my
work communicates that buildingrelationships is part of the
skill of teaching, and that mywork can highlight how complex
that can sometimes be, and howamazing teachers are for
navigating and balancing a lotof those tensions on a daily
(10:43):
basis, but especially during aperiod of grief.
Lindsay Persohn (10:46):
So in your own words, I'm hoping that if there
is anyone out there listening,who is experiencing these
extended periods of of grief orbereavement, what have you
learned from your work thatmight support their thinking, or
even to help them know thatthey're not alone in these kinds
of situations?
Mandie Dunn (11:05):
Well, one of the things that I've learned because
I've worked extensively withEnglish teachers in particular
is that we can't really separatecurriculum from from our
identities or from ourrelationships. So as you shared,
when we read texts, or poems, orwe write together, these
experiences with death and lossare going to come up whether or
(11:27):
not we explicitly disclose themor not, those experiences are
part of the emotional fabric ofthe classroom. So what I want
teachers to know is that one,it's okay to have emotions. And
it's okay to decide not to sharesomething with students, if
that's not something that youare comfortable doing. And so
(11:49):
what I sometimes say to teachersis, you know, if you're going
through a period of grief, maybespend some time being gentle
with yourself and reallyreflecting on where you're at
personally, you know, somequestions you might ask
yourself, could be somethinglike, Am I ready to share this
with my students? How do I wantto share it with my students?
(12:10):
What is my motivation forsharing it with my students? And
there are no right or wronganswers to these questions. But
I think just checking in withyourself around where you're at,
and what you need can be helpfulwhen we step into the classroom.
Because, you know, classroomsare vibrant places full of human
life, we don't know what's goingto happen when we step in there.
(12:33):
So having this, this chance tocheck in with ourselves can be
really helpful, because you'regoing to be responding to
comments, or texts, or studentsin unpredictable ways. So kind
of knowing where you're at is agood first step. I think another
thing to think about is teachingfollowing a death is going to be
(12:58):
a time that requires kind ofmore relational work, or at
least more attention to youremotions while you're in those
relationships with students. Andit's okay, if you're tired or
feeling drained, and thinkingabout, you know, what are some
ways that I can make space formyself? How do I need to support
(13:19):
myself now, some teachers, theymay do kind of what you did in
the story you shared, like, lettheir students know that they
might not be able to get througha particular text, or they might
need some help. For otherteachers that might be
modifying, you know, someactivities that are routines to
make things easier for thatteacher. So some teachers have
(13:42):
shared, you know, I had studentsdo more group work so that I
wasn't up in front of the classso much, and that I could kind
of visit with them in smallergroups. So you know, just
thinking of ways to be gentlewith yourself, I think is the
most important thing.
Lindsay Persohn (13:56):
Thank you for that kind of considerations for
how we might modify the day inorder. They're really coping
strategies, right? Whenever wethink about, you know, maybe
giving more group work, orpotentially even asking a
student who is, you know, kindof ahead of the class to lead a
particular part of it. You know,I think that all of those things
(14:16):
can be really helpful tools,particularly if we are just
trying to get through the day,get through the week. So I
really appreciate that. SoMandie, given the challenges of
today's educational climate,what message do you want
teachers to hear?
Mandie Dunn (14:31):
I think the message that I most want teachers to
hear is that I see you, I mean,I know it sounds maybe
sentimental to say, but over thecourse of working with so many
teachers in my work, what I cansay is that it has been an
enormous learning experience forme, and I'm moved by the number
(14:54):
of teachers that I've been ableto talk with about their lives
and their loved ones. And what Ialways just want teachers to
know is that I see all of thisamazing work that you are doing
in your classrooms, and you'redoing it while you're managing
these complex relationships thatbecome more complex, when we
(15:16):
have personal loss that we areprocessing. And I know too, that
in the past two and a half yearsduring the pandemic, loss has
been even more at the forefrontof our lives. And I know that
that has resulted in manyteachers feeling even more
drained than normal becauseLeigh Patel has this article in
(15:40):
the truth, where she says thatfrom the perspective of racial
capitalism, in which there cannever be too big of a profit,
grieving is simply time notworking. And that really stuck
out to me because I do feel likesometimes teachers feel that
very viscerally in their bodieswhen they're at work, what they
(16:00):
feel is that I am here, as aprofessional, and my grieving is
getting in the way of a job thatI'm supposed to be doing. And I
know that that has beenmagnified during the pandemic,
because there's been morelosses. And there's also crisis
management that teachers areundertaking as they try to, you
know, reconfigure their classesand take care of students and,
(16:20):
you know, do do all of thissafely and with health in mind.
And I feel like what hashappened is a lot of grief has
just been skipped over, as we'vetried to return to normal,
whatever that means. And I thinkthat has happened for students,
but I think maybe even more sofor teachers, who are tasked
(16:42):
with being responsible forstudents to the point where
their losses have just beenignored. And so what I want
teachers to know is, I have seenyou all, you know, going through
this, and it breaks my heart andalso in inspires me in the sense
that teachers are amazing peoplein my mind, and they are doing
(17:03):
work that is so heavily relianton being with other human
beings. And I'm always just somoved, by the way that teachers
take care of their students. Andwhat I would hope is that we can
start taking care of ourteachers a little bit better,
too.
Lindsay Persohn (17:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for that message,
because it is so important. Andas you're talking about that, as
you're describing that, it doesfeel as though we've been
encouraged to just sort of fastforward through the chaos and
the grief that comes along withCOVID. Right? We were supposed
to just keep on keepin on, presson do the best we can, without
(17:43):
acknowledging how much life haschanged in so many ways for for
really all of us, no matter howCOVID has touched your life, I
think. And I think alsoparticularly in in the area
where we live with deadlyhurricanes that have come
through recently. It's a wholenew layer of grief and chaos,
and kind of regrouping to seehow we move forward. And you're
(18:03):
right. Teachers have done thatin some really beautiful ways
that I don't think we are alwaysacknowledging, so I really
appreciate that message. SoMandie, I thank you for your
time today and I thank you foryour contributions to the world
of education.
Mandie Dunn (18:19):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (18:20):
Dr. Mandie Bevels Dunn is known for her
work in the area of teacherwellness. In particular, she
studies how teachers who aregrieving a death manage their
emotions in the context ofteaching in English language
arts classrooms. In studyingteachers grief related emotions,
she focuses on how powerdynamics between teachers and
students influence what teachersdisclose or hide about loss
(18:44):
experiences when they talk, reador write with students, and how
these power dynamics are furtherinfluenced by identity positions
such as race, class and gender.
Her research has been publishedin Reading Research Quarterly,
English Teaching (18:55):
Practice and Critique and Written
Communication among otherscholarly outlets and her
research has been funded byResearch Initiative Grant from
English language arts teachereducators. Her article teaching
literature following lossteachers adherence to emotional
rules published in EnglishTeaching Practice and Critique.
In August 2021 won the 2022literati outstanding paper award
(19:19):
from Emerald publishing. From2020 to 2022. She chaired the
early career cohort of theNational Council of Teachers of
English assembly for researchand organization she proposed,
found it and secured funding forthat now supports early career
literacy scholars nationwide,including many who have been
continuously disadvantagedwithout institutional
(19:41):
structures. She earned herbachelor's degree and master's
degree in English and Englisheducation from the University of
Georgia and a PhD in curriculuminstruction and teacher
education from Michigan StateUniversity. Dr. Dunn is an
assistant professor of EnglishEducation at the University of
South Florida in Tampa.
For the good of all studentsclassroom caffeine aims to
(20:04):
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(20:27):
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(20:50):
hear from you. As always, Iraised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. Mandie Dunntalks to us about grief, loss,
and the emotional fabric of theclassroom. Mandie is known for
her work in the area of teacherwellness. In particular, she
studies how teachers who weregrieving a death manage their
(00:51):
emotions in the context ofteaching in English language
arts classrooms. Her articleteaching literature following
loss teachers adherence toemotional rules published in
English teaching practice andcritique, In August 2021, won
the 2022 literati outstandingpaper award from Emerald
publishing. For more informationabout our guest, stay tuned to
(01:13):
the end of this episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host,
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Mandie,thank you for joining me,
welcome to the show.
Mandie Dunn (01:30):
Thank you for having me.
Lindsay Persohn (01:32):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now?
Mandie Dunn (01:39):
Sure. So I think a moment that really set me on the
path that I'm on now in terms ofmy research was actually while I
was in graduate school atMichigan State, and also
teaching pre service teachers aspart of that work, my spouse was
in a life threatening caraccident. You know, it was a
(02:02):
really difficult experience. Forme as someone who had not had a
lot of traumatic experiences inmy life previously, and this one
was quite traumatic, I had apolice officer come to my door,
there was a lot of uncertaintyand unknowns related to a
medical situation for someonethat, you know, was a loved one.
(02:25):
And it was a challenging timefor me personally. And what I
also noticed was that it becamea challenging time for me
professionally, especially inthe context of working with my
students in my class. And Ireally began to wonder, you
know, how much do I share withmy students about what I have
going on outside of class,because it wasn't just a one day
(02:48):
event. For me, this was a many,many months long situation that
I was in. And I felt a lot oftension around how to talk to my
students about what was going onin my personal life. And I also
felt a lot of guilt and judgmentof myself because as a teacher,
(03:10):
during a time when I was tryingto care for a loved one, I was
less patient with my students, Ifelt like I didn't have as much
time to listen to them. I feltmore harried because I was
juggling a lot more outside ofthe classroom. And I was very
lucky that at that time, I wasworking with some wonderful
students who were veryunderstanding of the situation
(03:32):
that I was in. But it didn'tmake it easy for me to navigate
that particular space. And sothat experience happened in my
personal life. And, you know,sometimes people ask, you know,
how's your spouse now, and he'sokay. But it was a really
difficult experience that I wentthrough. And during that time, I
was, as I mentioned, workingwith some pre service teachers,
(03:54):
and one of my students, who Ihad worked with for a couple of
years, lost her mother in asimilar timeframe. And then a
teacher out in the community,whom I've been working with, on
some research, lost a studentwho died by suicide. And because
these two losses happened inclose timing to a trial in my
(04:16):
own life, I think I was payingextra attention to how difficult
it was for them in theirclassrooms. And I felt, you
know, maybe ill prepared as aneducator to support them as they
were working to be teachers inthe classroom. And yet, I also
deeply understood some of theconflict and challenges that
they were experiencing. And thatreally has informed how I've
(04:39):
undertaken work on teacherslives because I realized that
these are really formativeexperiences that shaped teaching
and I wanted to shed more lighton those experiences. The event
that happened in those twoteachers lives also made me
think back to my own teaching inthe K 12 classroom. I taught
(05:00):
ninth and 10th Grade Englishand, you know, my lived
experience and in the preservice teachers experiences
reminded me of some similartensions I had when I was
working with ninth graders. Iremember, you know, a moment
where a class I was teachingkind of pushed me to tears. And
I immediately left the room. AndI've, you know, now that I've
(05:22):
had these new experiences, Ikind of reflect back on that
moment and think to myself,well, why did I leave the room?
Why was that my impulse to hidethat emotion from my students.
And what was happening in thatmoment was actually that I had
had a family member pass away,but I hadn't told my students
about that. And so you know,they were really concerned about
a quiz that they were going tobe taking, and I was trying to
(05:43):
support them in that. But Ifelt, as I mentioned before,
impatient in that moment, andlike, it wasn't the biggest
issue that I was tackling. Andso I think when, you know, that
pushed me to the point of tears,I just wanted to hide that
tension that I was experiencing,rather than share it with my
students. So you know, thoselater experiences while I was in
(06:06):
graduate school, were not allthat different from what I
experienced as a K 12 Teacher,however, I had kind of a new
perspective, in terms of theintensity of the experience.
Lindsay Persohn (06:17):
Well, I really appreciate you sharing that with
us, Mandie, and I feel like thisis a topic that is not often
talked about in schools inteacher preparation programs,
or, as you mentioned, in the K12. Setting. But I also think
these are, unfortunately, reallycommon experiences. I mean, as
you were describing this, Iactually thought of my own
experience related to this, whenI was also a grad student,
(06:41):
teaching pre service teachers,my dad got sick, and
unfortunately passed away. Andof course, the day he passed
away, I was scheduled to teach,you know, he died early in the
morning, and the only thing Iknew to do was to keep going. So
I went to class that day. Andcoincidentally, the read aloud I
(07:05):
was doing with my pre serviceteachers. At that point in the
story, someone died. Yeah. And Iknew that was coming, I wasn't
really sure how to prepare forthat other than to say to my
class, guys, my dad died thismorning. So you may have to help
me through this part. And ofcourse, immediately, they said,
What are you doing here, and Ijust don't know what else to do.
(07:26):
There's nothing I can do for himat this point. And I wasn't
going to, you know, like, likeyou were talking about, there's
a quiz to be done. And like allof these things that have a
sense of urgency within theclassroom, like, I thought,
well, I don't want to have toreschedule and regroup to try to
crunch today's class into thenext one. So I just kept moving.
And I think for me, that wasprobably the best thing to do.
(07:50):
But I can envision that that'snot the best thing for everyone
to do. So I'm hoping that inresponse to this next question,
you'll help us to kind ofnavigate what we do with those
sorts of moments when we come tothem in our teaching career. So
what do you want listeners toknow about your work?
Mandie Dunn (08:07):
I think what I'd like for people to know is that
I want my work to communicatethat the work that teachers do
to build relationships withstudents is part of their
expertise. So sometimes inpublic discourse about teaching
and teachers, there's a lot offocus on students, and we hear
these kind of narratives thatteachers are in it for the
(08:28):
students, not the paycheck. AndI do think that that's true, I
do. However, I think that thenarrative can also get warped a
little bit into discourses thatteachers should be martyrs, that
teachers themselves don't get tomatter as much that they have
to, you know, put themselvesaside for students. And I'm not
suggesting that anyone beinconsiderate of students in any
(08:51):
way. But what I want to suggestis that if building
relationships with students ispart of a teacher's expertise,
meaning it's done in theprofessional context of teaching
and learning, and you know,students and teachers are in a
compulsory relationship,students are required to go to
school teachers are required intheir job to teach students. So
(09:14):
if relationship building is partof expertise and teaching, then
there are potentially times whenthat work is more challenging.
And I think a period ofbereavement is a time when it's
more challenging. And I thinklike you suggested, it could go
a couple different ways. Itmight be more challenging,
because, you know, a teacher isdealing with something in their
(09:37):
personal life, like what youshared, and they kind of feel
this need to to keep going. Andthere's kind of this moment
where students are like, Whatare you doing here? And so
you're navigating a little bitof tension about your decisions.
For other teachers. It may bethat I'm feeling drained, I'm
feeling so overcome with griefthat it's hard for me to get out
(09:58):
of bed and get to school. Andthen I have to be on. And I have
to build these positiverelationships with sometimes
hundreds of students. And it'snot always easy to do that when
you're drained in your personallife because it takes energy to
build relationships. So I wantteachers who have maybe felt
that to know that you're notalone, like, it's not something
(10:20):
that necessarily comes naturallyto us, because it's happening in
a professional context. So Ijust, you know, I hope that my
work communicates that buildingrelationships is part of the
skill of teaching, and that mywork can highlight how complex
that can sometimes be, and howamazing teachers are for
navigating and balancing a lotof those tensions on a daily
(10:43):
basis, but especially during aperiod of grief.
Lindsay Persohn (10:46):
So in your own words, I'm hoping that if there
is anyone out there listening,who is experiencing these
extended periods of of grief orbereavement, what have you
learned from your work thatmight support their thinking, or
even to help them know thatthey're not alone in these kinds
of situations?
Mandie Dunn (11:05):
Well, one of the things that I've learned because
I've worked extensively withEnglish teachers in particular
is that we can't really separatecurriculum from from our
identities or from ourrelationships. So as you shared,
when we read texts, or poems, orwe write together, these
experiences with death and lossare going to come up whether or
(11:27):
not we explicitly disclose themor not, those experiences are
part of the emotional fabric ofthe classroom. So what I want
teachers to know is that one,it's okay to have emotions. And
it's okay to decide not to sharesomething with students, if
that's not something that youare comfortable doing. And so
(11:49):
what I sometimes say to teachersis, you know, if you're going
through a period of grief, maybespend some time being gentle
with yourself and reallyreflecting on where you're at
personally, you know, somequestions you might ask
yourself, could be somethinglike, Am I ready to share this
with my students? How do I wantto share it with my students?
(12:10):
What is my motivation forsharing it with my students? And
there are no right or wronganswers to these questions. But
I think just checking in withyourself around where you're at,
and what you need can be helpfulwhen we step into the classroom.
Because, you know, classroomsare vibrant places full of human
life, we don't know what's goingto happen when we step in there.
(12:33):
So having this, this chance tocheck in with ourselves can be
really helpful, because you'regoing to be responding to
comments, or texts, or studentsin unpredictable ways. So kind
of knowing where you're at is agood first step. I think another
thing to think about is teachingfollowing a death is going to be
(12:58):
a time that requires kind ofmore relational work, or at
least more attention to youremotions while you're in those
relationships with students. Andit's okay, if you're tired or
feeling drained, and thinkingabout, you know, what are some
ways that I can make space formyself? How do I need to support
(13:19):
myself now, some teachers, theymay do kind of what you did in
the story you shared, like, lettheir students know that they
might not be able to get througha particular text, or they might
need some help. For otherteachers that might be
modifying, you know, someactivities that are routines to
make things easier for thatteacher. So some teachers have
(13:42):
shared, you know, I had studentsdo more group work so that I
wasn't up in front of the classso much, and that I could kind
of visit with them in smallergroups. So you know, just
thinking of ways to be gentlewith yourself, I think is the
most important thing.
Lindsay Persohn (13:56):
Thank you for that kind of considerations for
how we might modify the day inorder. They're really coping
strategies, right? Whenever wethink about, you know, maybe
giving more group work, orpotentially even asking a
student who is, you know, kindof ahead of the class to lead a
particular part of it. You know,I think that all of those things
(14:16):
can be really helpful tools,particularly if we are just
trying to get through the day,get through the week. So I
really appreciate that. SoMandie, given the challenges of
today's educational climate,what message do you want
teachers to hear?
Mandie Dunn (14:31):
I think the message that I most want teachers to
hear is that I see you, I mean,I know it sounds maybe
sentimental to say, but over thecourse of working with so many
teachers in my work, what I cansay is that it has been an
enormous learning experience forme, and I'm moved by the number
(14:54):
of teachers that I've been ableto talk with about their lives
and their loved ones. And what Ialways just want teachers to
know is that I see all of thisamazing work that you are doing
in your classrooms, and you'redoing it while you're managing
these complex relationships thatbecome more complex, when we
(15:16):
have personal loss that we areprocessing. And I know too, that
in the past two and a half yearsduring the pandemic, loss has
been even more at the forefrontof our lives. And I know that
that has resulted in manyteachers feeling even more
drained than normal becauseLeigh Patel has this article in
(15:40):
the truth, where she says thatfrom the perspective of racial
capitalism, in which there cannever be too big of a profit,
grieving is simply time notworking. And that really stuck
out to me because I do feel likesometimes teachers feel that
very viscerally in their bodieswhen they're at work, what they
(16:00):
feel is that I am here, as aprofessional, and my grieving is
getting in the way of a job thatI'm supposed to be doing. And I
know that that has beenmagnified during the pandemic,
because there's been morelosses. And there's also crisis
management that teachers areundertaking as they try to, you
know, reconfigure their classesand take care of students and,
(16:20):
you know, do do all of thissafely and with health in mind.
And I feel like what hashappened is a lot of grief has
just been skipped over, as we'vetried to return to normal,
whatever that means. And I thinkthat has happened for students,
but I think maybe even more sofor teachers, who are tasked
(16:42):
with being responsible forstudents to the point where
their losses have just beenignored. And so what I want
teachers to know is, I have seenyou all, you know, going through
this, and it breaks my heart andalso in inspires me in the sense
that teachers are amazing peoplein my mind, and they are doing
(17:03):
work that is so heavily relianton being with other human
beings. And I'm always just somoved, by the way that teachers
take care of their students. Andwhat I would hope is that we can
start taking care of ourteachers a little bit better,
too.
Lindsay Persohn (17:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for that message,
because it is so important. Andas you're talking about that, as
you're describing that, it doesfeel as though we've been
encouraged to just sort of fastforward through the chaos and
the grief that comes along withCOVID. Right? We were supposed
to just keep on keepin on, presson do the best we can, without
(17:43):
acknowledging how much life haschanged in so many ways for for
really all of us, no matter howCOVID has touched your life, I
think. And I think alsoparticularly in in the area
where we live with deadlyhurricanes that have come
through recently. It's a wholenew layer of grief and chaos,
and kind of regrouping to seehow we move forward. And you're
(18:03):
right. Teachers have done thatin some really beautiful ways
that I don't think we are alwaysacknowledging, so I really
appreciate that message. SoMandie, I thank you for your
time today and I thank you foryour contributions to the world
of education.
Mandie Dunn (18:19):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (18:20):
Dr. Mandie Bevels Dunn is known for her
work in the area of teacherwellness. In particular, she
studies how teachers who aregrieving a death manage their
emotions in the context ofteaching in English language
arts classrooms. In studyingteachers grief related emotions,
she focuses on how powerdynamics between teachers and
students influence what teachersdisclose or hide about loss
(18:44):
experiences when they talk, reador write with students, and how
these power dynamics are furtherinfluenced by identity positions
such as race, class and gender.
Her research has been publishedin Reading Research Quarterly,
English Teaching (18:55):
Practice and Critique and Written
Communication among otherscholarly outlets and her
research has been funded byResearch Initiative Grant from
English language arts teachereducators. Her article teaching
literature following lossteachers adherence to emotional
rules published in EnglishTeaching Practice and Critique.
In August 2021 won the 2022literati outstanding paper award
(19:19):
from Emerald publishing. From2020 to 2022. She chaired the
early career cohort of theNational Council of Teachers of
English assembly for researchand organization she proposed,
found it and secured funding forthat now supports early career
literacy scholars nationwide,including many who have been
continuously disadvantagedwithout institutional
(19:41):
structures. She earned herbachelor's degree and master's
degree in English and Englisheducation from the University of
Georgia and a PhD in curriculuminstruction and teacher
education from Michigan StateUniversity. Dr. Dunn is an
assistant professor of EnglishEducation at the University of
South Florida in Tampa.
For the good of all studentsclassroom caffeine aims to
(20:04):
energize education research andpractice. If this show provides
you with things to think about,don't keep it a secret.
Subscribe, like and review thispodcast through your preferred
podcast provider. I also inviteyou to connect with the show
through our website at WWW dotclassroom caffeine.com where you
(20:27):
can learn more about each guest.
Find transcripts for manyepisodes, explore episode topics
using our tagging feature,support podcast, research
through our survey, request anepisode topic or a potential
guest or share your ownquestions that we might respond
to through the show. You couldalso leave us a voice message or
a text message at1-941-212-0949. We would love to
(20:50):
hear from you. As always, Iraised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
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