January 31, 2023 • 41 mins
Dr. Rachael Gabriel talks to us about the influence of policy on education, shadow policies, teaching outside of our integrity, and leaning on each other in hard times. Dr. Gabriel is known for her work in the areas of literacy instruction, leadership and intervention, as well as policies related to teacher development and evaluation. Her current projects investigate supports for adolescent literacy, state literacy policies and discipline-specific literacy instruction. Dr. Gabriel is Professor of Literacy Education at the University of Connecticut.
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Jan. 31). A conversation with Rachael Gabriel. (Season 3, No. 17) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/57D8-F7A5-30E0-F9CB-B8DA-H
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
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Lindsay Persohn (00:10):
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. RachaelGabriel talks to us about the
influence of policy oneducation, Shadow policies,
teaching outside of ourintegrity, and leaning on each
other during hard times. Dr.
Gabriel is known for her work inthe areas of literacy
(00:51):
instruction, leadership andintervention, as well as
policies related to teacherdevelopment and evaluation. Her
current projects investigatesupports for adolescent
literacy, state literacypolicies, and discipline
specific literacy instruction.
Dr. Gabriel is a professor ofliteracy education at the
(01:12):
University of Connecticut. Formore information about our
guest, stay tuned to the end ofthis episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Rachel,thank you for joining me.
(01:32):
Welcome to the show.
Rachael Gabriel (01:33):
Thank you so much for having me, longtime
listener first time caller.
Lindsay Persohn (01:37):
Oh, thank you.
So from your own experiences andeducation, will you share with
us one or two moments thatinform your thinking now?
Rachael Gabriel (01:47):
Oh, wow, what a good question. And it's not like
it was unexpected. I have animage in my mind about my
advisor, my mentor, RichardAllington, sitting on a way too
small for him chair, in anelementary school, across from
(02:08):
probably a six year old,definitely a first grader, deep
in conversation about a book.
And whenever I think of Dr.
Allington, that's the image thatI have of him. And whenever I
think of what a researcher is,and should be, that's the image
that pops into my mind. So thatmoment happened at one point,
and probably many times over, indifferent too small chairs. But
(02:29):
that idea, and everything thatcomes along with that image,
sticks with me, it makes me wantto keep myself literally like in
physical proximity to childrenand to schools in them every
week. And also to keep the workthat I do and my thinking as
close as possible. But the otherpiece of that that was really
important to me, is the way thatit showed how he was dazzled,
(02:55):
tickled by kids, and stillthought that they were
interesting and fascinating and,and fun to talk to that like
given the choice. That's wherehe'd be. I think it's really
easy for me, especially thinkingabout policy, which is really
mostly an adult world andworking in a school of
education, which, ironically, isa place where they're usually
very few young children runningaround unless they're mine, or
(03:17):
my own, I should say, it's easyto get interested and
intellectually dazzled by otherthings. And so coming back to
that as the reason, the originalreason and also like sort of a
homebase, that moment, lookingaround and finding my fill in
the to fill in the visual RickAllington in my head is like
(03:39):
six, six, he's not really butlike, he's sort of a giant in
the field in some ways, and alsobig, strong kind of hero of mine
in lots of other ways. And sothat combination sticks with me.
So that's one of the moments.
And then the other moment is amoment that I'd rather forget.
There's a moment from myteaching sixth grade in
(04:00):
Washington, DC, probably about15 years ago now, where I talk
to a student who I thoughtwasn't listening as if they
weren't listening. And thatwasn't the case. And that
literally keeps me up at nightall the time. And that that was
(04:21):
a moment that I repaired withthe individual at the time and
over and over again. But it'ssomething that sticks with me as
a reminder first that likethings are not always as they
seem that our words reallymatter, especially to the
children even if it looks likethey're not paying attention. Or
even if it looks like theyaren't hurt or even if it looks
(04:42):
like they're not not absorbinganything that we're saying. So
it was a moment when I saw mypower in negative light and and
I saw it going in the wrongdirection. And I think about
that one a lot to sort of forall of the opposite reasons
Lindsay Persohn (05:01):
I really appreciate that your first
moment is an image, I tend to bea very visual type thinker, or I
think I tend to think not somuch in the written word. And so
having this image of an academicgiant in a tiny little chair in
an elementary school classroom,it's for me, it does conjure up
so many positive images aboutwhat relationships with children
(05:23):
could look like. Andparticularly whether we're
educators or researchers,however we see ourselves, I love
that. And I think that's animage that will stick with me
also. And I also appreciate thatthat sort of like, it's almost
like a driving purpose in thework that we do, right? That it
is a place where adults can talkto children, and find out who
they really are, and what theyreally want out of their lives
(05:43):
in order to serve them better,right. But I hold that in kind
of stark contrast to the secondmoment you share. And I actually
turned that into a visual in mymind, also of sort of, you know,
the towering teacher, with thewhether it's finger wagging or
finger pointing at a kid, wethink is not doing what they're
supposed to do. And I think thathappens all the time, too. So I
(06:05):
can appreciate that that's amoment that you still think
about, even though you had anopportunity to kind of repair
that relationship with a child,because we do approach education
with so many assumptions aboutwhat kids are doing and what
kids are thinking. And so yeah,I can really appreciate those
are two framing moments in thework that you do and the way
that you think about the workthat you do. So thanks for
(06:27):
sharing those. And I'm sure,yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure
that will also lead into thework that you do now. So
Rachael, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Rachael Gabriel (06:41):
I'm really interested in the, the way that
policy shapes and hopefullyeventually is shaped by the work
that happens in classrooms. Atthe moment, I understand policy
is primarily shaped by theculture, popular media, popular
culture. And, and I've beenstudying and trying to
(07:04):
illuminate and understand how toresist in some ways, the way
that local policies, includingall of the itty bitty little
shadow policies, like the thingsthings that we think are
policies, but they're not reallythe things that teachers do,
because they think they have towhen, like nowhere is it written
that you must do these things orworry about these things, all
(07:25):
the way up to literally writtendown classroom and school and
district, state and federalpolicies. Our current moment,
there's not a lot of federalpolicy that is directed
specifically at K 12 schools,there's a lot of just devolution
to the states to make their ownpolicy in these areas. But there
is a significant legacy offederal policy that still echoes
(07:46):
and still has kind of set alimit at our imagination in
terms of what kinds of levers wecan pull on to influence change,
what kinds of measures matter.
So the role of the federalgovernment might be a historic
one at the moment, but it stilllooms pretty large, and what
kinds of policies are present,and likely to come next?
Lindsay Persohn (08:07):
So Rachael, you mentioned this idea of shadow
policies. And I'm hoping thatshe'll unpack that a bit,
because it seems to me that thisis maybe where teachers can find
a lot of their own power, theirown sort of personal power and
how they support students intheir classrooms. So can you
tell us a little bit more aboutyour, your work and your
thinking around shadow policies?
Rachael Gabriel (08:27):
Sure. I wish I could attribute it, I think I
read it somewhere. I'll find it.
The basic ideas, we think thatthere are specific rights and
responsibilities, I'll kind offrame this using positioning
theory that there are rightsresponsibilities and storylines
and our understanding of whatschool is and who teachers are
and what we're supposed to bedoing and what we are entitled
(08:47):
to. And then also what studentsare supposed to be doing and
what they are entitled to, andadministration and community and
policy makers, which often wetalk about policymakers, as if
that's like a monolithic groupthat like does these things, but
they also are people that areoften spread in lots of
different directions. And I'malways, it's always remarkable
to me how many individualpolicies state legislator we'll
(09:09):
look at in a year, it's in thehundreds always. And so the idea
that there's 360 degrees ofunderstanding for all of them,
not even getting to nuance orgetting to, you know, backstory
or getting to really understandimpact or intrigue, just just
plain understanding what theissue is, is even more
(09:30):
challenging than I think I oftenrealize, anyway, Shadow policies
are the things that we thinkhave to happen that don't
necessarily always have tohappen. There's an idea that we
have to cover all of thestandards, because somebody
somewhere said we have to, butthere is no literal law that
says, Thou shalt like you. Andif you don't, nothing will
(09:51):
happen. Theoretically, it'llshow up on assessments, but so
do a lot of other things.
Theoretically, youradministration should be Are you
concerned that you are engagingthe curriculum in it fully? But
are they going to know? Like,there are lots of things we
assume are super important. Thatcan be reprioritized. If we, if
(10:13):
we want to put students in frontof those things, so sometimes
that's prioritizing what weteach, sometimes it's
prioritizing how we teach,sometimes we think we have to
do, you know, 10 minutes of thisprogram every single day, and if
we don't, x will happen, butoften there isn't another shoe
that's gonna drop. And so thequestion that sometimes there
is, I'm not saying that thereisn't. So so the question to ask
(10:34):
is, what really would happen ifI made a change here? What
really would happen if I took myfoot off the gas on this one
thing? Who would know? Whatwould the consequences be? And
can I live with that better thanI can live with what's happening
right now, my concern, and my myworry for teachers at the moment
is that they are often beingasked to teach outside of their
(10:54):
integrity, they're being askedto do things that they do not
understand is in the bestinterest of children and their
communities. And so they'realways making trade offs and
compromises, that's always goingto be true, because being part
of a public institution thatserves a diverse population, in
communities that are alwaysgrowing and changing, we're
(11:16):
always going to be making somekind of compromise. We're always
negotiating and makingdecisions. And that's why we
want highly trainedprofessionals who care a lot
about children in these roles.
And we want also for thosehighly trained professionals who
care about children to knowwhere they have room to make
their own decisions about thingswhen they feel they're being
pressured into things that theycan't stand in their integrity
(11:36):
to do. So shadow policies partlycome from the idea that like
politics is like politicalspectacle and political theater
that like politics is all aboutthe storytelling. And really,
what gets written into law isoften a lot less dramatic, and a
lot less interesting. And farreaching than we might think the
(11:56):
impact of a lot can often belike really sweeping and just it
will take on a life of its own.
And it has a lot of drama and awhole narrative arc to it.
However, when we go back toliterally the letter of the law,
like what words are there,there's often some room more
room than we think, because lawsget, you know, translated over
(12:16):
and over again, by the differentinstitutions that are there to
implement them. So it tricklesdown and changes and a little
bit of a telephone game. By thetime it makes it to teachers,
the story is a little bitdifferent. And so it's important
that teachers know what's reallythere. And then also, what's
written is often a lot more drythan the reality feels. And so a
(12:39):
lot gets projected onto it.
Understanding that like, lawsonly happen if they catch the
imagination of the public, ifthey catch the imaginations of
the the chairs of committeesthat are charged with setting
agendas for what people vote on,and what people pass. And if
they catch the imagination ofthe media, so that the public is
aware, and they put pressure ontheir policymakers are really
good political story is whatmakes laws happen in a lot of
(13:02):
cases. And so that story isoften what gets passed along.
And yet, the law itselfsometimes has more room for us,
and also sometimes has a coupleof contradictions in it. It's
funny to think about how so manydifferent people participate in
editing and writing andrewriting laws. And sometimes
there are, you know, built incontradictions where it pulls
(13:27):
you one way and another way, andyou have to make a decision. And
right there you there's room forpeople to blow up those sort of
cover over those contradictionsand blow up the importance of
one way or another. And alsoroom for a teacher to say no, I
mean, I see where you get thatimpulse. But the law also says
something else, and I'm gonnastand in my integrity to make
(13:47):
that happen as well.
Lindsay Persohn (13:50):
So a couple of things you've said so far,
Rachael, first of all, I want topoint out that there's a prior
classroom caffeine episode withDanielle Dennis, who also talks
a bit about teacher autonomy andagency and understanding the
law. And also, she doesn't usethe term shadow policies. But I
think she's really talking aboutthe ways in which policy is
(14:13):
enacted. And that game oftelephone and just how, you
know, how twisted sometimesthings get where, yes, teachers
wholeheartedly believe there'ssomething they must do. That's
actually not in the law. Right.
And, and, and so she is also Ialso want to point out for
listeners that Danielle is alsoa student of Dr. Ellington. So I
think that, you know, it'spretty neat how you can see
(14:34):
those connections over time andsort of those ripples of ideas
through generations of scholars,so to speak. So I appreciate
that connection.
Rachael Gabriel (14:44):
Yeah, totally.
Yes. I like the term generationof scholar I. I always think of
Danielle as my big sister in, inacademia. I see. No, but yes,
Lindsay Persohn (14:54):
yes, yes. But it you know, it's so true that
you can trace those ideas fromI'm a major professor or mentor
to, you know, newer generationsof scholars as well. And that's
actually a little preview,that's something we're working
on for the classroom caffeinewebsite is creating those
networks of scholars so thatlisteners can more readily trace
ideas across generations ofscholars. So more on that. But
(15:18):
it's been fun to think about howso many scholars are truly
connected in not just the waythey think now, but where their
ideas come from kind of thegenesis of those ideas. So yeah,
and I think that even if you arein, in or in academia, it can be
hard to track thoserelationships. And certainly, I
think if you're a teacher comingto this conversation, it is that
(15:38):
much more difficult, becauseyou're, you know, mindful of so
many other relationships aroundyou. So we're trying to make
those ideas much clearer andmake it easier for listeners to
kind of follow the iterativethinking and the new
developments in that thinkingover time. So I wanted to make
that connection to Danielsepisode. But this this concept
that you brought forth ofteaching outside of our
(15:59):
integrity, I wonder, and I sortof have this gut instinct that
this is why a lot of teachersend up leaving education, when
they are forced over and overagain, to teach outside of what
they believe in, or what theyknow is good for kids. And I'm
wondering if you have any, anyinsights? Or if you can say
(16:19):
anything more about what itmeans to teach outside of our
integrity, or maybe even how weget back? Within our own
professional and personalintegrity? How do we navigate
that in such a complex politicalworld of education?
Rachael Gabriel (16:34):
million dollar question, right. But it really,
but a good a good, importantone, thank you for asking it.
This is what I've been thinkingabout since I entered the
profession, partly because mymother was a reading specialist
and, and always told me, I couldbe anything I wanted, but don't
be a teacher. And the reasonwas, because if you're a
teacher, people will not respectyou. And every few years, they
(16:55):
will tell you that everythingyou know is wrong. And you have
to do it a different way. Andthen later on everything that we
just told you was right, becausethe other was that, you know,
the pendulum swing kind of reinscribed onto that storyline
that I entered the professionwith, against her wishes. And
I've been around long enough tosee that happen kind of writ
(17:17):
large, like our cross, yeah, thecommunity of of educators and a
community of scholars, but alsowatched it happen for my
students. I've kind of felt itfor myself, both in, in K 12.
Classroom and also in higher ed.
And I think part of it is partof it is deeply personal. And it
should be because teaching isrelational activity. It's social
(17:37):
and interactive. And so often,the micro level moment by
moment, quality of ourinteractions with students is
what accumulates into somethingthat's important. And that
grows, and that either protectsand nurtures them through their
learning experience, or doesn't,whether it has a negative effect
or just doesn't contribute toput layers of protection that
(18:00):
they're going to need, as theyface content they're not
particularly interested in ortopics that are really difficult
for them or teachers who aren'tnecessarily a good match, like
we know that they're going to,we know that there will be
moments of difficulty intentionin everybody's education career.
And the question isn't, are yougoing to have a hard time at
some point? The question is, areyou going to have the layers of
protection that you need tosurvive the hard times? And so
(18:21):
if we could be constantlycontributing to the development
of protective layers aroundchildren, then we should. And I
guess the challenge is that, youknow, the phrase hurt people
hurt people, oppressed people,oppressed people, if teachers
are treated as if they don'tknow anything, or if they're
(18:43):
treated as if they don't makegood decisions, then, even
unconsciously, we often let thatkind of trickle down into our
understanding, and ourinteractions with other teachers
and with other students. If wefeel like people are suspicious
of us than we often becomessuspicious of other people. I
(19:03):
don't mean to say that peopledon't have a choice about this,
and that your own kind ofconfidence and, and sense of
self worth and self efficacydon't matter they do. And they
serve as kind of protectivefactors for you in the
profession. So the question oflike, what do we do about this?
I think you build a, you know,lean on your network of friends
and colleagues enough, who makeyou feel more human, not less.
(19:26):
That's what we're looking forhere more human, not less. Think
about the, the scholars, even ifthey're kind of far away, you've
never met them before. Thepeople in social media, the
colleagues that you have fromlong ago or from right now and
the leaders that are around you,that make you feel more human,
and get a little bit of swaggerabout that. And, you know, take
(19:46):
your swagger and say, and say,Actually, I'm a full human and I
deserve to be fully human here.
And that means that I have ideasabout things and I have
experiences that inform thatthose ideas. And as long as we
hold those as always kind oftentative and contingent, like
we're willing to change ourminds, we're willing to realize,
(20:07):
oh, no, the student did actuallyhear me they were still
thinking, you know, that wedon't know everything. Swagger
is an I know everything. And youknow, nothing. Swagger is, I
know some things. And I'm alwayslearning, and so are the people
around me. My main concern is,is not so much at the individual
level. But as at the communitylevel, teachers are questioned,
(20:29):
bashed, told, words are takenout of their mouths, actions are
taken away from them. Andworking with colleagues that are
being told what they can andcan't say in an email and who
they are and are not allowed tobe in communication with, you
can then turn around and producehumanizing interactions. If you
(20:50):
are always surrounded bydehumanizing interactions, it
kind of slowly depletes yourstores. So I think and I
actually sort of hope that oneof the reasons that people leave
is they don't feel like they cando a good job where they are,
and they find a place where theycan, I think, then hope that I
hope that that is something thatpeople feel empowered to do,
because I think it's good foreverybody when you do. And I
(21:12):
think too many teachers are inthat position of feeling like I
can't do my best work here. AndI need to be in a different
spot.
Lindsay Persohn (21:22):
I think that's such empowering advice that you
provide here, because it'ssometimes easier to become
apathetic than to try to fightall the time every day,
especially if you're in acontext where you feel like
you're constantly fighting. AndI know, in my teaching
experience, I've worked inschools where I felt fully
empowered, and I felt supported.
And I've also worked in schoolswhere the opposite was true,
right? I just sort of felt likethere was somebody always
(21:44):
looking over my shoulder. Andthat idea of having a little bit
of swagger and kind of knowingwho you are, and where you come
from, and knowing what you know,but also being willing to
reconsider, I think is soimportant on an individual
level. But then also, I thinkthere's so much to community
communities of teachers, andthat collective efficacy, right,
(22:06):
because if we all are incommunity together, if we all
have ideas, if we're willing totalk about them, if we're
willing to reconsider our ideasbased on the ideas of others, it
creates such a strong communityof educators who can then say,
We believe this, or we are goingto take a stand here, because we
(22:27):
believe that we know what's goodfor kids. And I think that
there's there's something that'sboth personally empowering about
that. But then, as you alsomentioned, the sort of community
feeling of empowerment, that Ithink that whenever we have that
it is much easier to stay and tokeep doing the work that we know
(22:47):
is good for kids. So Iappreciate that empowering
advice.
Rachael Gabriel (22:54):
There's a podcast that's almost as good as
this one. Not quite. That'scalled Kelly Corrigan wonders.
And she's doing a series rightnow about intellectual humility
in the way that it like leads tomore creativity and innovation.
And we don't know all there isto it, we're not going to know
and really what we're pushingback against as anybody that
says that they do know once andfor all kind of like this is the
(23:14):
way and other ways aren't asgood or other ways aren't good
enough. We want the fullrepertoire, we want all the
colors in the crayon box, wewant all the flavors in the
spice cabinet. And anybody thatwants to limit us to you know,
like eight colors, or twocolors, anybody that says that
these things are black and whiteis lying and or selling
something or just confused. Andthe confusion often comes from
(23:36):
oppression, you have not beeninvited to consider an
alternative, you it hasn't beensafe for you to consider an
alternative. And as a result,you don't have the intellectual
humility to grow the ideas. Andin a learning field and a
learning profession, we have toalways we have to have room to
grow. And if we don't, we're notgoing to and it's not going to
feel right. And I think thatthat's really where this sort of
(23:58):
questioning of integrity comesit's not because there's a big T
truth and you're not letting melive my truth. It's because I'm
not allowed to question andgrow. Like if you if you bring
in something that is new to methat I don't necessarily agree
with. But I have room toquestion and I have room to
shape and to grow in andalongside of it. That's really
different than saying everythingyou know, is wrong and do this
instead. So framing is part ofthis, like, Am I off? I always
(24:21):
tell my students when we do ourassessment class, there's no bad
assessments, just bad uses ofassessments. I actually think
there probably are some badcurricular programs. But there
are also, you know, good andbad, useful and not useful,
fruitful and damaging uses ofcurriculum materials. And so
we're just looking for space, Ithink, and so are our students,
(24:44):
they're telling us in in hugeways, like generational ways and
other ways that who they are asdifferent from who we might have
expected a month ago or a yearago or a decade ago, in so many
different ways that theassumptions we make about like
the humanity of the childrenthat walk through the school
doors today is evolving andflourishing, I think in a
(25:06):
beautiful way. But the more wesay, No, you've got to be this
kind of student in this kind ofthinker. And you have to engage
in these activities. And likethese texts, the more we limit
them, the more we createtensions and only see bad
because we're creating asituation where people are not
thriving and growing and livingin their integrity.
Lindsay Persohn (25:23):
Yeah, and something else you said, Rachael
connected me back to somethingyou mentioned earlier about the
fact that legislators are reallyresponsible, there's political
pressure for them to cruisethrough so many different bills.
And you know, I mean, we'retalking 1000s, and 1000s, and
1000s of pages, which have beenreduced to black and white,
(25:45):
right, black ink on a whitepage. And it actually kind of
surprisingly, makes me feel alittle bit sympathetic for
politicians. Yeah. Right.
Because they're not using allthe colors in the crayon box.
They're not imagining what thesemandates and laws look like in
real life, in 3d in color in ourworld, and it with tremendous
(26:05):
consequences for theprofessionals who have to enact
those, but ultimately, for thestudents that they impact. And
so thank you for that. Becausesometimes, I don't always think
about politics in those ways.
And so I appreciate you kind ofpushing back on my own inherent
(26:27):
beliefs about politics and howthey work or don't in education.
And so maybe, just maybe so manyof us are really trying to do
the very best we can, but aremaybe misinformed or don't see
things in 3d or in full color.
So I appreciate you putting thatidea. In my mind, it's certainly
something that I'm going tocontinue to think about. And
(26:47):
that's not to say that we acceptpolicy, you know, for what it
is. Right? But people are stillpeople. Yeah,
Rachael Gabriel (26:58):
yeah, yeah, see the humanity of policymakers.
I'm going to complicate that onemore, one more layer, please.
Which is that I think that thebills themselves, what no matter
what their details are, andwhatever, they're kind of like
wait, the downstreamconsequences of them that folks
may not have the bandwidth orthe information to be aware of
the bills do end up sort ofsignifying things, and they end
(27:19):
up being kind of seen in threedimensions, but politically, not
necessarily in terms of theirimplementation and application
and people's experiences severalyears down the line. So bill
that has something to do withreading might end up
symbolizing, like, this is thevote that we need, that's going
to do X for the party, wherethis is the vote that we we just
need to make sure that nothingpasses through the committee,
(27:40):
this session, or this one wasbrought up by this chair, and
this chair symbolizes xx for theparty. And so we are all against
it are all for it. And it's notreally about the details of the
bill anymore. So they do havethere is meaning attached to
these many, many, many billsthat people are, are working
with. And that's one of the waysthat they can handle the volume
is, you know, we sort andcategorize things and assign
(28:01):
meaning to them, which may ormay not be inclusive of the
meanings that teachers andleaders and parents and kids the
the meanings that they hold. Andone of the things that we've
seen, for better or for worseover the last five or eight
years, is that the more peopleshow up to do testimony, the
more certain narrative getsheard. And there are real
(28:25):
logistical challenges with thatit's almost always in the middle
of the day, it almost alwaystakes hours and hours, you never
know if they're actually goingto call you or hear you, you've
got to stand up and speak infront of it. Like it's really
not a friendly environment,unless you love yourself some
public speaking with a timer,like there are so very few
people who are made for that.
And so that it just creates awhole bunch of challenges that
(28:47):
are unequally felt acrosscommunities. And yet, it's
evidence that when people tellstories about how laws impact
their lives, folks that theyelect, often hear them and
whether it influences thatparticular vote or not, that
becomes part of the fabric ofhow they understand what's going
(29:08):
on in schools and how theyunderstand who the players are
and where the needs are. And soit is still worth reaching out
to communicate in whatever wayyou think you can do that. And
because we're never sure if it'sgoing to make a difference or
not. I like to encourage peopleto absolutely write to and call
and go go talk to folks, but notinvest there and like don't
(29:28):
spend 17,000 hours trying tocraft a perfect letter because
chances are that letter justgonna get put in a pile that
gets counted 17 for 10 againstand it's going to be there. So
that's great, but nobody's goingto be poring over your word
choice, unless by chance theydo. So it's always worth
writing. It's always worththrowing up but not killing
yourself over it. BecauseBecause who knows.
Lindsay Persohn (29:54):
That's great advice. That's because I do
think that the the process ofbecoming an involved in politics
and in political decision makingis really daunting. And
sometimes it feels like it'sjust one more thing that we
don't really have the time orattention to spend our time on.
But there are so many tools outthere that can help you to
(30:15):
identify, you know, your pointperson. And you know, I think
that those are the things thatare incredibly helpful. But also
hearing you say, it doesn't somuch matter what you know, your
precise word choices, don'tspend five hours drafting that
email, put your thoughts downand send it off, because sending
it off for legislators to havein hand is so much better than
(30:36):
having those ideas just sort ofin your own head. So what what
wonderful advice that I thinkfolks can can take action on.
Awesome, awesome. Rachel, isthere anything else you want
listeners to know about yourwork? Anything we haven't talked
about yet?
Rachael Gabriel (30:50):
I mean, like, I hope that's my work, right? I
hope my work is trying tounderstand how forces shape what
people can and can't do in theirclassrooms, and how what we're
doing in classrooms is morehumanizing than less. I think
that I hope that that looksreally different over time, it
hasn't always looked the wayit's looked right now, it looks
like a lot of policy right now,because there's a lot of policy
(31:11):
happening. But I hope that that,that that mission looks
different over time. Yeah. And I
Lindsay Persohn (31:17):
wish we could get away from you know, voting
down party lines, and blocking,blocking good policy, just
because it comes from someone wedon't like, or someone we're not
aligned with. And really putpeople first, you know, if I had
one wish for politics, it wouldbe to put people first over
party's over over the politicsof it all, and really look at
(31:38):
what's good for people. And I'mnot talking about one brand of
people. I'm talking abouteveryone in our wonderful, free
country, you know, if only wecould get to that point.
Rachael Gabriel (31:49):
Yep, it's sort of it's the it's the what's
what's the most inclusive.
There's, there's this strand ofmy research that feels
disconnected, but isn't, whichis I have always done some
writing and thinking about neuroto neurodiversity. We didn't
always call it that. But we, butwe follow people who identify as
neurodiverse. And one of thethings that it's teaching me as
an instructor is just to leaveroom for possibilities that we
(32:12):
can't yet imagine, and to leaveroom for people to be more more
and more fully human in ourclassrooms and in the way that
they communicate. And I thinkyou're absolutely right, that if
policy makers were invited to bemore fully human in their roles,
that they would see morehumanity in the in the
activities and the decisionsthat they're making. And I think
the folks that do or often thatfeel really human in that role
(32:35):
that feel like they can beeffective, are often much more
effective than their colleagueswho are sort of having to follow
or having to be kind of overlydirected by other things. And
that is also a nice balance,because it gives me a sense of
hope, like working with, I workwith the School of Engineering
on this current project, to makethe undergraduate engineering
(32:55):
program more inclusive. Andworking in a very engineering
way on how to engineerinclusivity is refreshing. And
also it does sort of a littlebit of a hope generation
machine, especially knowing howhigh schools look to
universities for how do we dowhat we do and what counts is
smart and what counts is good.
(33:15):
And what are we preparing kidsfor a middle school, it's the
High School. And I don't know ifelementary school really looks
to middle school for thosethings. But in the event that
they do, I like the idea thatsome of the most challenging
sort of STEM high pressuremajors are doing this thinking
in this work, so that maybe,maybe that that will be a good
kind of trickle down.
Lindsay Persohn (33:35):
We can hope, we can certainly hope. So one, one
more question for you. And thisactually feels a little late in
the conversation. But given thechallenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Rachael Gabriel (33:48):
I hope that teachers know that some people
in scholarly communities seethem, and that they connect and
continue to build relationshipswith the people that they think
do. I think one of the thingsthat has been incredibly
effective at breaking down theinstitution of public education
(34:08):
is siloing and isolating people.
So teachers isolated fromleaders and leaders isolated
from teacher educators and likeeverybody's isolated from each
other researchers and teachers,there's this sense in some
cases, I think it's obviouslyvery true. And in some cases, I
think it's an overblown myth,but the whole like gap between
like research and practice, andwhat research really can and
(34:29):
can't do about and for and inpractice, is something that is
used mostly rhetorically tominimize what teachers no one
can do. And that's only allowedto happen because the
connections aren't there. Wedon't have like big, thick
braided fiber optic connectionsbetween people whose job is to
(34:49):
study instruction and peoplewhose job is to implement
instruction. And often I thinkthe best research is happening
in between. It's folks that areinformally asking the right
questions and gathering often atlike incredible time cost and
resource cost, like gatheringthe information that helps them
answer those questions in in arobust way that like still kind
(35:11):
of has integrity, and they aredoing the translation for us.
They're teaching us aboutclassrooms, then they are
teaching classroom teachersabout what the results of the
sort of accumulated results ofinquiry have made. So I hope
that teachers know that they'renot alone. And that the more
they're the more they reach outto networks of colleagues that
(35:33):
have different roles and havedifferent experiences, the
stronger they'll be. And also,the last five or six years,
especially for read for teachersin general, but reading teachers
especially, has been this sortof moment of disintegration like
things that we thought wereunquestionable, and that never
got questioned, for better andfor worse, are being sort of are
(35:54):
being questioned in a verypublic way, and often not in a
very kind way. And we really areseeing sort of, if you think
about it as like season cycles,we're seeing like, all the
leaves fall off the trees, andlay lots of things bare. And in
some cases, the trees aren'tsurviving. And we're going to
see what comes as this kind ofturns into compost and new new
growth and new ideas kind ofcome up between it but it is
(36:16):
that sort of like, fee sometimespeople call it the wisdom cycle,
or sometimes it's just thinkabout it as like how leaves
happen. I live in New England, Ihave a lot of leaves my backyard
that I spent a lot of timeraking. But yeah, we're in this
not very comfortable moment ofcompost, composting happening, a
lot of it. And it doesn't alwayssmell great. And it doesn't
(36:39):
always look pretty. And we haveto believe that spring is coming
and stick around long enough forit to come and, and then also
stick together well enough thatwe are nurturing ourselves and
each other so that when it doescome that the new growth has a
has a really good fightingchance of you know, being
beautiful for the kids.
Lindsay Persohn (37:02):
I love that.
Thank you for another wonderfulmental image. And I appreciate I
appreciate compost as the wayyou describe that. Because I
think in a lot of places, itmaybe feels a little stickier
than compost so, so thank you.
And I think that idea of lookingfor springtime to come I bet
fills me with quite a bit ofhope for what might be just
(37:23):
around the corner. If, as yousaid, we can stick together and
support each other and continueto look for the good. And also,
it reminds me that you know thechildren right in front of us in
schools, this is theirchildhood, they don't get
another chance at this. So wehave to do our very best for
those who are are sitting rightin front of us. So thank you so
(37:45):
much for that, Rachael.
Rachael Gabriel (37:47):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (37:48):
And I also I want to thank you for your time
today. And thank you for yourtremendous contributions to the
field of education.
Rachael Gabriel (37:55):
Thank you and thank you for this podcast and
other tremendous contribution.
Lindsay Persohn (37:59):
Thank you. Dr.
Rachael Gabriel is known for herwork in the areas of literacy
instruction, leadership andintervention as well as policies
related to teacher developmentand evaluation. Her current
projects investigate supportsfor adolescent literacy, state
literacy policies and disciplinespecific literacy instruction.
She is author of more than 50refereed articles and author or
(38:20):
editor of six books for literacyteachers, leaders and education
researchers. Her work hasappeared in the reading teacher
Journal of Reading Recovery,Journal of adolescent and adult
literacy reading ResearchQuarterly, the elementary school
Journal American EducationalResearch Journal, Education
Policy Analysis archives,educational policy, educational
(38:42):
leadership, Journal of literacyresearch, English journal,
voices from the middle languagearts, action and teacher
education, the Clearinghouse ajournal of educational
strategies, as well as manyother publication venues. She
has won awards for her researchfrom the American Educational
Research Association, theInternational Literacy
(39:05):
Association, and the NEA agSchool of Education at the
University of Connecticut.
Rachel currently teaches coursesfor educators and doctoral
students pursuing specializationin literacy. She serves on the
editorial boards of journalsfocused on literacy, education,
research and educational policy,and has served on the boards of
(39:25):
the International LiteracyAssociation and Reading Recovery
Council of North America. Inaddition to experience as a
classroom teacher and a readingspecialist, Rachel holds
graduate certificates in bothquantitative and qualitative
research methods. You can followDr. Gabriel on Twitter at Rachel
Gabriel that's at our a c h e ga b r i e. L. Dr. Gabriel is
(39:53):
professor of literacy educationat the University of
Connecticut. For the good of allstudents Classroom caffeine aims
to energize education researchand practice. If this show
provides you with things tothink about, don't keep it a
secret. Subscribe, like andreview this podcast through your
(40:13):
preferred podcast provider. Ialso invite you to connect with
the show through our website atWWW dot classroom caffeine.com
where you can learn more abouteach guest. Find transcripts for
many episodes, explore episodetopics using our tagging
feature, support podcastresearch through our survey,
(40:36):
requested episode topic or apotential guest or share your
own questions that we mightrespond to through the show. You
could also leave us a voicemessage or a text message at
1-941-212-0949. We would love tohear from you. As always, I
raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
Education research has a problem. The work
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode, Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
(00:31):
from years of research andexperiences.
In this episode, Dr. RachaelGabriel talks to us about the
influence of policy oneducation, Shadow policies,
teaching outside of ourintegrity, and leaning on each
other during hard times. Dr.
Gabriel is known for her work inthe areas of literacy
(00:51):
instruction, leadership andintervention, as well as
policies related to teacherdevelopment and evaluation. Her
current projects investigatesupports for adolescent
literacy, state literacypolicies, and discipline
specific literacy instruction.
Dr. Gabriel is a professor ofliteracy education at the
(01:12):
University of Connecticut. Formore information about our
guest, stay tuned to the end ofthis episode.
So pour a cup of your favoritedrink. And join me your host
Lindsay Persohn. For classroomcaffeine research to energize
your teaching practice. Rachel,thank you for joining me.
(01:32):
Welcome to the show.
Rachael Gabriel (01:33):
Thank you so much for having me, longtime
listener first time caller.
Lindsay Persohn (01:37):
Oh, thank you.
So from your own experiences andeducation, will you share with
us one or two moments thatinform your thinking now?
Rachael Gabriel (01:47):
Oh, wow, what a good question. And it's not like
it was unexpected. I have animage in my mind about my
advisor, my mentor, RichardAllington, sitting on a way too
small for him chair, in anelementary school, across from
(02:08):
probably a six year old,definitely a first grader, deep
in conversation about a book.
And whenever I think of Dr.
Allington, that's the image thatI have of him. And whenever I
think of what a researcher is,and should be, that's the image
that pops into my mind. So thatmoment happened at one point,
and probably many times over, indifferent too small chairs. But
(02:29):
that idea, and everything thatcomes along with that image,
sticks with me, it makes me wantto keep myself literally like in
physical proximity to childrenand to schools in them every
week. And also to keep the workthat I do and my thinking as
close as possible. But the otherpiece of that that was really
important to me, is the way thatit showed how he was dazzled,
(02:55):
tickled by kids, and stillthought that they were
interesting and fascinating and,and fun to talk to that like
given the choice. That's wherehe'd be. I think it's really
easy for me, especially thinkingabout policy, which is really
mostly an adult world andworking in a school of
education, which, ironically, isa place where they're usually
very few young children runningaround unless they're mine, or
(03:17):
my own, I should say, it's easyto get interested and
intellectually dazzled by otherthings. And so coming back to
that as the reason, the originalreason and also like sort of a
homebase, that moment, lookingaround and finding my fill in
the to fill in the visual RickAllington in my head is like
(03:39):
six, six, he's not really butlike, he's sort of a giant in
the field in some ways, and alsobig, strong kind of hero of mine
in lots of other ways. And sothat combination sticks with me.
So that's one of the moments.
And then the other moment is amoment that I'd rather forget.
There's a moment from myteaching sixth grade in
(04:00):
Washington, DC, probably about15 years ago now, where I talk
to a student who I thoughtwasn't listening as if they
weren't listening. And thatwasn't the case. And that
literally keeps me up at nightall the time. And that that was
(04:21):
a moment that I repaired withthe individual at the time and
over and over again. But it'ssomething that sticks with me as
a reminder first that likethings are not always as they
seem that our words reallymatter, especially to the
children even if it looks likethey're not paying attention. Or
even if it looks like theyaren't hurt or even if it looks
(04:42):
like they're not not absorbinganything that we're saying. So
it was a moment when I saw mypower in negative light and and
I saw it going in the wrongdirection. And I think about
that one a lot to sort of forall of the opposite reasons
Lindsay Persohn (05:01):
I really appreciate that your first
moment is an image, I tend to bea very visual type thinker, or I
think I tend to think not somuch in the written word. And so
having this image of an academicgiant in a tiny little chair in
an elementary school classroom,it's for me, it does conjure up
so many positive images aboutwhat relationships with children
(05:23):
could look like. Andparticularly whether we're
educators or researchers,however we see ourselves, I love
that. And I think that's animage that will stick with me
also. And I also appreciate thatthat sort of like, it's almost
like a driving purpose in thework that we do, right? That it
is a place where adults can talkto children, and find out who
they really are, and what theyreally want out of their lives
(05:43):
in order to serve them better,right. But I hold that in kind
of stark contrast to the secondmoment you share. And I actually
turned that into a visual in mymind, also of sort of, you know,
the towering teacher, with thewhether it's finger wagging or
finger pointing at a kid, wethink is not doing what they're
supposed to do. And I think thathappens all the time, too. So I
(06:05):
can appreciate that that's amoment that you still think
about, even though you had anopportunity to kind of repair
that relationship with a child,because we do approach education
with so many assumptions aboutwhat kids are doing and what
kids are thinking. And so yeah,I can really appreciate those
are two framing moments in thework that you do and the way
that you think about the workthat you do. So thanks for
(06:27):
sharing those. And I'm sure,yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure
that will also lead into thework that you do now. So
Rachael, what do you wantlisteners to know about your
work?
Rachael Gabriel (06:41):
I'm really interested in the, the way that
policy shapes and hopefullyeventually is shaped by the work
that happens in classrooms. Atthe moment, I understand policy
is primarily shaped by theculture, popular media, popular
culture. And, and I've beenstudying and trying to
(07:04):
illuminate and understand how toresist in some ways, the way
that local policies, includingall of the itty bitty little
shadow policies, like the thingsthings that we think are
policies, but they're not reallythe things that teachers do,
because they think they have towhen, like nowhere is it written
that you must do these things orworry about these things, all
(07:25):
the way up to literally writtendown classroom and school and
district, state and federalpolicies. Our current moment,
there's not a lot of federalpolicy that is directed
specifically at K 12 schools,there's a lot of just devolution
to the states to make their ownpolicy in these areas. But there
is a significant legacy offederal policy that still echoes
(07:46):
and still has kind of set alimit at our imagination in
terms of what kinds of levers wecan pull on to influence change,
what kinds of measures matter.
So the role of the federalgovernment might be a historic
one at the moment, but it stilllooms pretty large, and what
kinds of policies are present,and likely to come next?
Lindsay Persohn (08:07):
So Rachael, you mentioned this idea of shadow
policies. And I'm hoping thatshe'll unpack that a bit,
because it seems to me that thisis maybe where teachers can find
a lot of their own power, theirown sort of personal power and
how they support students intheir classrooms. So can you
tell us a little bit more aboutyour, your work and your
thinking around shadow policies?
Rachael Gabriel (08:27):
Sure. I wish I could attribute it, I think I
read it somewhere. I'll find it.
The basic ideas, we think thatthere are specific rights and
responsibilities, I'll kind offrame this using positioning
theory that there are rightsresponsibilities and storylines
and our understanding of whatschool is and who teachers are
and what we're supposed to bedoing and what we are entitled
(08:47):
to. And then also what studentsare supposed to be doing and
what they are entitled to, andadministration and community and
policy makers, which often wetalk about policymakers, as if
that's like a monolithic groupthat like does these things, but
they also are people that areoften spread in lots of
different directions. And I'malways, it's always remarkable
to me how many individualpolicies state legislator we'll
(09:09):
look at in a year, it's in thehundreds always. And so the idea
that there's 360 degrees ofunderstanding for all of them,
not even getting to nuance orgetting to, you know, backstory
or getting to really understandimpact or intrigue, just just
plain understanding what theissue is, is even more
(09:30):
challenging than I think I oftenrealize, anyway, Shadow policies
are the things that we thinkhave to happen that don't
necessarily always have tohappen. There's an idea that we
have to cover all of thestandards, because somebody
somewhere said we have to, butthere is no literal law that
says, Thou shalt like you. Andif you don't, nothing will
(09:51):
happen. Theoretically, it'llshow up on assessments, but so
do a lot of other things.
Theoretically, youradministration should be Are you
concerned that you are engagingthe curriculum in it fully? But
are they going to know? Like,there are lots of things we
assume are super important. Thatcan be reprioritized. If we, if
(10:13):
we want to put students in frontof those things, so sometimes
that's prioritizing what weteach, sometimes it's
prioritizing how we teach,sometimes we think we have to
do, you know, 10 minutes of thisprogram every single day, and if
we don't, x will happen, butoften there isn't another shoe
that's gonna drop. And so thequestion that sometimes there
is, I'm not saying that thereisn't. So so the question to ask
(10:34):
is, what really would happen ifI made a change here? What
really would happen if I took myfoot off the gas on this one
thing? Who would know? Whatwould the consequences be? And
can I live with that better thanI can live with what's happening
right now, my concern, and my myworry for teachers at the moment
is that they are often beingasked to teach outside of their
(10:54):
integrity, they're being askedto do things that they do not
understand is in the bestinterest of children and their
communities. And so they'realways making trade offs and
compromises, that's always goingto be true, because being part
of a public institution thatserves a diverse population, in
communities that are alwaysgrowing and changing, we're
(11:16):
always going to be making somekind of compromise. We're always
negotiating and makingdecisions. And that's why we
want highly trainedprofessionals who care a lot
about children in these roles.
And we want also for thosehighly trained professionals who
care about children to knowwhere they have room to make
their own decisions about thingswhen they feel they're being
pressured into things that theycan't stand in their integrity
(11:36):
to do. So shadow policies partlycome from the idea that like
politics is like politicalspectacle and political theater
that like politics is all aboutthe storytelling. And really,
what gets written into law isoften a lot less dramatic, and a
lot less interesting. And farreaching than we might think the
(11:56):
impact of a lot can often belike really sweeping and just it
will take on a life of its own.
And it has a lot of drama and awhole narrative arc to it.
However, when we go back toliterally the letter of the law,
like what words are there,there's often some room more
room than we think, because lawsget, you know, translated over
(12:16):
and over again, by the differentinstitutions that are there to
implement them. So it tricklesdown and changes and a little
bit of a telephone game. By thetime it makes it to teachers,
the story is a little bitdifferent. And so it's important
that teachers know what's reallythere. And then also, what's
written is often a lot more drythan the reality feels. And so a
(12:39):
lot gets projected onto it.
Understanding that like, lawsonly happen if they catch the
imagination of the public, ifthey catch the imaginations of
the the chairs of committeesthat are charged with setting
agendas for what people vote on,and what people pass. And if
they catch the imagination ofthe media, so that the public is
aware, and they put pressure ontheir policymakers are really
good political story is whatmakes laws happen in a lot of
(13:02):
cases. And so that story isoften what gets passed along.
And yet, the law itselfsometimes has more room for us,
and also sometimes has a coupleof contradictions in it. It's
funny to think about how so manydifferent people participate in
editing and writing andrewriting laws. And sometimes
there are, you know, built incontradictions where it pulls
(13:27):
you one way and another way, andyou have to make a decision. And
right there you there's room forpeople to blow up those sort of
cover over those contradictionsand blow up the importance of
one way or another. And alsoroom for a teacher to say no, I
mean, I see where you get thatimpulse. But the law also says
something else, and I'm gonnastand in my integrity to make
(13:47):
that happen as well.
Lindsay Persohn (13:50):
So a couple of things you've said so far,
Rachael, first of all, I want topoint out that there's a prior
classroom caffeine episode withDanielle Dennis, who also talks
a bit about teacher autonomy andagency and understanding the
law. And also, she doesn't usethe term shadow policies. But I
think she's really talking aboutthe ways in which policy is
(14:13):
enacted. And that game oftelephone and just how, you
know, how twisted sometimesthings get where, yes, teachers
wholeheartedly believe there'ssomething they must do. That's
actually not in the law. Right.
And, and, and so she is also Ialso want to point out for
listeners that Danielle is alsoa student of Dr. Ellington. So I
think that, you know, it'spretty neat how you can see
(14:34):
those connections over time andsort of those ripples of ideas
through generations of scholars,so to speak. So I appreciate
that connection.
Rachael Gabriel (14:44):
Yeah, totally.
Yes. I like the term generationof scholar I. I always think of
Danielle as my big sister in, inacademia. I see. No, but yes,
Lindsay Persohn (14:54):
yes, yes. But it you know, it's so true that
you can trace those ideas fromI'm a major professor or mentor
to, you know, newer generationsof scholars as well. And that's
actually a little preview,that's something we're working
on for the classroom caffeinewebsite is creating those
networks of scholars so thatlisteners can more readily trace
ideas across generations ofscholars. So more on that. But
(15:18):
it's been fun to think about howso many scholars are truly
connected in not just the waythey think now, but where their
ideas come from kind of thegenesis of those ideas. So yeah,
and I think that even if you arein, in or in academia, it can be
hard to track thoserelationships. And certainly, I
think if you're a teacher comingto this conversation, it is that
(15:38):
much more difficult, becauseyou're, you know, mindful of so
many other relationships aroundyou. So we're trying to make
those ideas much clearer andmake it easier for listeners to
kind of follow the iterativethinking and the new
developments in that thinkingover time. So I wanted to make
that connection to Danielsepisode. But this this concept
that you brought forth ofteaching outside of our
(15:59):
integrity, I wonder, and I sortof have this gut instinct that
this is why a lot of teachersend up leaving education, when
they are forced over and overagain, to teach outside of what
they believe in, or what theyknow is good for kids. And I'm
wondering if you have any, anyinsights? Or if you can say
(16:19):
anything more about what itmeans to teach outside of our
integrity, or maybe even how weget back? Within our own
professional and personalintegrity? How do we navigate
that in such a complex politicalworld of education?
Rachael Gabriel (16:34):
million dollar question, right. But it really,
but a good a good, importantone, thank you for asking it.
This is what I've been thinkingabout since I entered the
profession, partly because mymother was a reading specialist
and, and always told me, I couldbe anything I wanted, but don't
be a teacher. And the reasonwas, because if you're a
teacher, people will not respectyou. And every few years, they
(16:55):
will tell you that everythingyou know is wrong. And you have
to do it a different way. Andthen later on everything that we
just told you was right, becausethe other was that, you know,
the pendulum swing kind of reinscribed onto that storyline
that I entered the professionwith, against her wishes. And
I've been around long enough tosee that happen kind of writ
(17:17):
large, like our cross, yeah, thecommunity of of educators and a
community of scholars, but alsowatched it happen for my
students. I've kind of felt itfor myself, both in, in K 12.
Classroom and also in higher ed.
And I think part of it is partof it is deeply personal. And it
should be because teaching isrelational activity. It's social
(17:37):
and interactive. And so often,the micro level moment by
moment, quality of ourinteractions with students is
what accumulates into somethingthat's important. And that
grows, and that either protectsand nurtures them through their
learning experience, or doesn't,whether it has a negative effect
or just doesn't contribute toput layers of protection that
(18:00):
they're going to need, as theyface content they're not
particularly interested in ortopics that are really difficult
for them or teachers who aren'tnecessarily a good match, like
we know that they're going to,we know that there will be
moments of difficulty intentionin everybody's education career.
And the question isn't, are yougoing to have a hard time at
some point? The question is, areyou going to have the layers of
protection that you need tosurvive the hard times? And so
(18:21):
if we could be constantlycontributing to the development
of protective layers aroundchildren, then we should. And I
guess the challenge is that, youknow, the phrase hurt people
hurt people, oppressed people,oppressed people, if teachers
are treated as if they don'tknow anything, or if they're
(18:43):
treated as if they don't makegood decisions, then, even
unconsciously, we often let thatkind of trickle down into our
understanding, and ourinteractions with other teachers
and with other students. If wefeel like people are suspicious
of us than we often becomessuspicious of other people. I
(19:03):
don't mean to say that peopledon't have a choice about this,
and that your own kind ofconfidence and, and sense of
self worth and self efficacydon't matter they do. And they
serve as kind of protectivefactors for you in the
profession. So the question oflike, what do we do about this?
I think you build a, you know,lean on your network of friends
and colleagues enough, who makeyou feel more human, not less.
(19:26):
That's what we're looking forhere more human, not less. Think
about the, the scholars, even ifthey're kind of far away, you've
never met them before. Thepeople in social media, the
colleagues that you have fromlong ago or from right now and
the leaders that are around you,that make you feel more human,
and get a little bit of swaggerabout that. And, you know, take
(19:46):
your swagger and say, and say,Actually, I'm a full human and I
deserve to be fully human here.
And that means that I have ideasabout things and I have
experiences that inform thatthose ideas. And as long as we
hold those as always kind oftentative and contingent, like
we're willing to change ourminds, we're willing to realize,
(20:07):
oh, no, the student did actuallyhear me they were still
thinking, you know, that wedon't know everything. Swagger
is an I know everything. And youknow, nothing. Swagger is, I
know some things. And I'm alwayslearning, and so are the people
around me. My main concern is,is not so much at the individual
level. But as at the communitylevel, teachers are questioned,
(20:29):
bashed, told, words are takenout of their mouths, actions are
taken away from them. Andworking with colleagues that are
being told what they can andcan't say in an email and who
they are and are not allowed tobe in communication with, you
can then turn around and producehumanizing interactions. If you
(20:50):
are always surrounded bydehumanizing interactions, it
kind of slowly depletes yourstores. So I think and I
actually sort of hope that oneof the reasons that people leave
is they don't feel like they cando a good job where they are,
and they find a place where theycan, I think, then hope that I
hope that that is something thatpeople feel empowered to do,
because I think it's good foreverybody when you do. And I
(21:12):
think too many teachers are inthat position of feeling like I
can't do my best work here. AndI need to be in a different
spot.
Lindsay Persohn (21:22):
I think that's such empowering advice that you
provide here, because it'ssometimes easier to become
apathetic than to try to fightall the time every day,
especially if you're in acontext where you feel like
you're constantly fighting. AndI know, in my teaching
experience, I've worked inschools where I felt fully
empowered, and I felt supported.
And I've also worked in schoolswhere the opposite was true,
right? I just sort of felt likethere was somebody always
(21:44):
looking over my shoulder. Andthat idea of having a little bit
of swagger and kind of knowingwho you are, and where you come
from, and knowing what you know,but also being willing to
reconsider, I think is soimportant on an individual
level. But then also, I thinkthere's so much to community
communities of teachers, andthat collective efficacy, right,
(22:06):
because if we all are incommunity together, if we all
have ideas, if we're willing totalk about them, if we're
willing to reconsider our ideasbased on the ideas of others, it
creates such a strong communityof educators who can then say,
We believe this, or we are goingto take a stand here, because we
(22:27):
believe that we know what's goodfor kids. And I think that
there's there's something that'sboth personally empowering about
that. But then, as you alsomentioned, the sort of community
feeling of empowerment, that Ithink that whenever we have that
it is much easier to stay and tokeep doing the work that we know
(22:47):
is good for kids. So Iappreciate that empowering
advice.
Rachael Gabriel (22:54):
There's a podcast that's almost as good as
this one. Not quite. That'scalled Kelly Corrigan wonders.
And she's doing a series rightnow about intellectual humility
in the way that it like leads tomore creativity and innovation.
And we don't know all there isto it, we're not going to know
and really what we're pushingback against as anybody that
says that they do know once andfor all kind of like this is the
(23:14):
way and other ways aren't asgood or other ways aren't good
enough. We want the fullrepertoire, we want all the
colors in the crayon box, wewant all the flavors in the
spice cabinet. And anybody thatwants to limit us to you know,
like eight colors, or twocolors, anybody that says that
these things are black and whiteis lying and or selling
something or just confused. Andthe confusion often comes from
(23:36):
oppression, you have not beeninvited to consider an
alternative, you it hasn't beensafe for you to consider an
alternative. And as a result,you don't have the intellectual
humility to grow the ideas. Andin a learning field and a
learning profession, we have toalways we have to have room to
grow. And if we don't, we're notgoing to and it's not going to
feel right. And I think thatthat's really where this sort of
(23:58):
questioning of integrity comesit's not because there's a big T
truth and you're not letting melive my truth. It's because I'm
not allowed to question andgrow. Like if you if you bring
in something that is new to methat I don't necessarily agree
with. But I have room toquestion and I have room to
shape and to grow in andalongside of it. That's really
different than saying everythingyou know, is wrong and do this
instead. So framing is part ofthis, like, Am I off? I always
(24:21):
tell my students when we do ourassessment class, there's no bad
assessments, just bad uses ofassessments. I actually think
there probably are some badcurricular programs. But there
are also, you know, good andbad, useful and not useful,
fruitful and damaging uses ofcurriculum materials. And so
we're just looking for space, Ithink, and so are our students,
(24:44):
they're telling us in in hugeways, like generational ways and
other ways that who they are asdifferent from who we might have
expected a month ago or a yearago or a decade ago, in so many
different ways that theassumptions we make about like
the humanity of the childrenthat walk through the school
doors today is evolving andflourishing, I think in a
(25:06):
beautiful way. But the more wesay, No, you've got to be this
kind of student in this kind ofthinker. And you have to engage
in these activities. And likethese texts, the more we limit
them, the more we createtensions and only see bad
because we're creating asituation where people are not
thriving and growing and livingin their integrity.
Lindsay Persohn (25:23):
Yeah, and something else you said, Rachael
connected me back to somethingyou mentioned earlier about the
fact that legislators are reallyresponsible, there's political
pressure for them to cruisethrough so many different bills.
And you know, I mean, we'retalking 1000s, and 1000s, and
1000s of pages, which have beenreduced to black and white,
(25:45):
right, black ink on a whitepage. And it actually kind of
surprisingly, makes me feel alittle bit sympathetic for
politicians. Yeah. Right.
Because they're not using allthe colors in the crayon box.
They're not imagining what thesemandates and laws look like in
real life, in 3d in color in ourworld, and it with tremendous
(26:05):
consequences for theprofessionals who have to enact
those, but ultimately, for thestudents that they impact. And
so thank you for that. Becausesometimes, I don't always think
about politics in those ways.
And so I appreciate you kind ofpushing back on my own inherent
(26:27):
beliefs about politics and howthey work or don't in education.
And so maybe, just maybe so manyof us are really trying to do
the very best we can, but aremaybe misinformed or don't see
things in 3d or in full color.
So I appreciate you putting thatidea. In my mind, it's certainly
something that I'm going tocontinue to think about. And
(26:47):
that's not to say that we acceptpolicy, you know, for what it
is. Right? But people are stillpeople. Yeah,
Rachael Gabriel (26:58):
yeah, yeah, see the humanity of policymakers.
I'm going to complicate that onemore, one more layer, please.
Which is that I think that thebills themselves, what no matter
what their details are, andwhatever, they're kind of like
wait, the downstreamconsequences of them that folks
may not have the bandwidth orthe information to be aware of
the bills do end up sort ofsignifying things, and they end
(27:19):
up being kind of seen in threedimensions, but politically, not
necessarily in terms of theirimplementation and application
and people's experiences severalyears down the line. So bill
that has something to do withreading might end up
symbolizing, like, this is thevote that we need, that's going
to do X for the party, wherethis is the vote that we we just
need to make sure that nothingpasses through the committee,
(27:40):
this session, or this one wasbrought up by this chair, and
this chair symbolizes xx for theparty. And so we are all against
it are all for it. And it's notreally about the details of the
bill anymore. So they do havethere is meaning attached to
these many, many, many billsthat people are, are working
with. And that's one of the waysthat they can handle the volume
is, you know, we sort andcategorize things and assign
(28:01):
meaning to them, which may ormay not be inclusive of the
meanings that teachers andleaders and parents and kids the
the meanings that they hold. Andone of the things that we've
seen, for better or for worseover the last five or eight
years, is that the more peopleshow up to do testimony, the
more certain narrative getsheard. And there are real
(28:25):
logistical challenges with thatit's almost always in the middle
of the day, it almost alwaystakes hours and hours, you never
know if they're actually goingto call you or hear you, you've
got to stand up and speak infront of it. Like it's really
not a friendly environment,unless you love yourself some
public speaking with a timer,like there are so very few
people who are made for that.
And so that it just creates awhole bunch of challenges that
(28:47):
are unequally felt acrosscommunities. And yet, it's
evidence that when people tellstories about how laws impact
their lives, folks that theyelect, often hear them and
whether it influences thatparticular vote or not, that
becomes part of the fabric ofhow they understand what's going
(29:08):
on in schools and how theyunderstand who the players are
and where the needs are. And soit is still worth reaching out
to communicate in whatever wayyou think you can do that. And
because we're never sure if it'sgoing to make a difference or
not. I like to encourage peopleto absolutely write to and call
and go go talk to folks, but notinvest there and like don't
(29:28):
spend 17,000 hours trying tocraft a perfect letter because
chances are that letter justgonna get put in a pile that
gets counted 17 for 10 againstand it's going to be there. So
that's great, but nobody's goingto be poring over your word
choice, unless by chance theydo. So it's always worth
writing. It's always worththrowing up but not killing
yourself over it. BecauseBecause who knows.
Lindsay Persohn (29:54):
That's great advice. That's because I do
think that the the process ofbecoming an involved in politics
and in political decision makingis really daunting. And
sometimes it feels like it'sjust one more thing that we
don't really have the time orattention to spend our time on.
But there are so many tools outthere that can help you to
(30:15):
identify, you know, your pointperson. And you know, I think
that those are the things thatare incredibly helpful. But also
hearing you say, it doesn't somuch matter what you know, your
precise word choices, don'tspend five hours drafting that
email, put your thoughts downand send it off, because sending
it off for legislators to havein hand is so much better than
(30:36):
having those ideas just sort ofin your own head. So what what
wonderful advice that I thinkfolks can can take action on.
Awesome, awesome. Rachel, isthere anything else you want
listeners to know about yourwork? Anything we haven't talked
about yet?
Rachael Gabriel (30:50):
I mean, like, I hope that's my work, right? I
hope my work is trying tounderstand how forces shape what
people can and can't do in theirclassrooms, and how what we're
doing in classrooms is morehumanizing than less. I think
that I hope that that looksreally different over time, it
hasn't always looked the wayit's looked right now, it looks
like a lot of policy right now,because there's a lot of policy
(31:11):
happening. But I hope that that,that that mission looks
different over time. Yeah. And I
Lindsay Persohn (31:17):
wish we could get away from you know, voting
down party lines, and blocking,blocking good policy, just
because it comes from someone wedon't like, or someone we're not
aligned with. And really putpeople first, you know, if I had
one wish for politics, it wouldbe to put people first over
party's over over the politicsof it all, and really look at
(31:38):
what's good for people. And I'mnot talking about one brand of
people. I'm talking abouteveryone in our wonderful, free
country, you know, if only wecould get to that point.
Rachael Gabriel (31:49):
Yep, it's sort of it's the it's the what's
what's the most inclusive.
There's, there's this strand ofmy research that feels
disconnected, but isn't, whichis I have always done some
writing and thinking about neuroto neurodiversity. We didn't
always call it that. But we, butwe follow people who identify as
neurodiverse. And one of thethings that it's teaching me as
an instructor is just to leaveroom for possibilities that we
(32:12):
can't yet imagine, and to leaveroom for people to be more more
and more fully human in ourclassrooms and in the way that
they communicate. And I thinkyou're absolutely right, that if
policy makers were invited to bemore fully human in their roles,
that they would see morehumanity in the in the
activities and the decisionsthat they're making. And I think
the folks that do or often thatfeel really human in that role
(32:35):
that feel like they can beeffective, are often much more
effective than their colleagueswho are sort of having to follow
or having to be kind of overlydirected by other things. And
that is also a nice balance,because it gives me a sense of
hope, like working with, I workwith the School of Engineering
on this current project, to makethe undergraduate engineering
(32:55):
program more inclusive. Andworking in a very engineering
way on how to engineerinclusivity is refreshing. And
also it does sort of a littlebit of a hope generation
machine, especially knowing howhigh schools look to
universities for how do we dowhat we do and what counts is
smart and what counts is good.
(33:15):
And what are we preparing kidsfor a middle school, it's the
High School. And I don't know ifelementary school really looks
to middle school for thosethings. But in the event that
they do, I like the idea thatsome of the most challenging
sort of STEM high pressuremajors are doing this thinking
in this work, so that maybe,maybe that that will be a good
kind of trickle down.
Lindsay Persohn (33:35):
We can hope, we can certainly hope. So one, one
more question for you. And thisactually feels a little late in
the conversation. But given thechallenges of today's
educational climate, whatmessage do you want teachers to
hear?
Rachael Gabriel (33:48):
I hope that teachers know that some people
in scholarly communities seethem, and that they connect and
continue to build relationshipswith the people that they think
do. I think one of the thingsthat has been incredibly
effective at breaking down theinstitution of public education
(34:08):
is siloing and isolating people.
So teachers isolated fromleaders and leaders isolated
from teacher educators and likeeverybody's isolated from each
other researchers and teachers,there's this sense in some
cases, I think it's obviouslyvery true. And in some cases, I
think it's an overblown myth,but the whole like gap between
like research and practice, andwhat research really can and
(34:29):
can't do about and for and inpractice, is something that is
used mostly rhetorically tominimize what teachers no one
can do. And that's only allowedto happen because the
connections aren't there. Wedon't have like big, thick
braided fiber optic connectionsbetween people whose job is to
(34:49):
study instruction and peoplewhose job is to implement
instruction. And often I thinkthe best research is happening
in between. It's folks that areinformally asking the right
questions and gathering often atlike incredible time cost and
resource cost, like gatheringthe information that helps them
answer those questions in in arobust way that like still kind
(35:11):
of has integrity, and they aredoing the translation for us.
They're teaching us aboutclassrooms, then they are
teaching classroom teachersabout what the results of the
sort of accumulated results ofinquiry have made. So I hope
that teachers know that they'renot alone. And that the more
they're the more they reach outto networks of colleagues that
(35:33):
have different roles and havedifferent experiences, the
stronger they'll be. And also,the last five or six years,
especially for read for teachersin general, but reading teachers
especially, has been this sortof moment of disintegration like
things that we thought wereunquestionable, and that never
got questioned, for better andfor worse, are being sort of are
(35:54):
being questioned in a verypublic way, and often not in a
very kind way. And we really areseeing sort of, if you think
about it as like season cycles,we're seeing like, all the
leaves fall off the trees, andlay lots of things bare. And in
some cases, the trees aren'tsurviving. And we're going to
see what comes as this kind ofturns into compost and new new
growth and new ideas kind ofcome up between it but it is
(36:16):
that sort of like, fee sometimespeople call it the wisdom cycle,
or sometimes it's just thinkabout it as like how leaves
happen. I live in New England, Ihave a lot of leaves my backyard
that I spent a lot of timeraking. But yeah, we're in this
not very comfortable moment ofcompost, composting happening, a
lot of it. And it doesn't alwayssmell great. And it doesn't
(36:39):
always look pretty. And we haveto believe that spring is coming
and stick around long enough forit to come and, and then also
stick together well enough thatwe are nurturing ourselves and
each other so that when it doescome that the new growth has a
has a really good fightingchance of you know, being
beautiful for the kids.
Lindsay Persohn (37:02):
I love that.
Thank you for another wonderfulmental image. And I appreciate I
appreciate compost as the wayyou describe that. Because I
think in a lot of places, itmaybe feels a little stickier
than compost so, so thank you.
And I think that idea of lookingfor springtime to come I bet
fills me with quite a bit ofhope for what might be just
(37:23):
around the corner. If, as yousaid, we can stick together and
support each other and continueto look for the good. And also,
it reminds me that you know thechildren right in front of us in
schools, this is theirchildhood, they don't get
another chance at this. So wehave to do our very best for
those who are are sitting rightin front of us. So thank you so
(37:45):
much for that, Rachael.
Rachael Gabriel (37:47):
Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn (37:48):
And I also I want to thank you for your time
today. And thank you for yourtremendous contributions to the
field of education.
Rachael Gabriel (37:55):
Thank you and thank you for this podcast and
other tremendous contribution.
Lindsay Persohn (37:59):
Thank you. Dr.
Rachael Gabriel is known for herwork in the areas of literacy
instruction, leadership andintervention as well as policies
related to teacher developmentand evaluation. Her current
projects investigate supportsfor adolescent literacy, state
literacy policies and disciplinespecific literacy instruction.
She is author of more than 50refereed articles and author or
(38:20):
editor of six books for literacyteachers, leaders and education
researchers. Her work hasappeared in the reading teacher
Journal of Reading Recovery,Journal of adolescent and adult
literacy reading ResearchQuarterly, the elementary school
Journal American EducationalResearch Journal, Education
Policy Analysis archives,educational policy, educational
(38:42):
leadership, Journal of literacyresearch, English journal,
voices from the middle languagearts, action and teacher
education, the Clearinghouse ajournal of educational
strategies, as well as manyother publication venues. She
has won awards for her researchfrom the American Educational
Research Association, theInternational Literacy
(39:05):
Association, and the NEA agSchool of Education at the
University of Connecticut.
Rachel currently teaches coursesfor educators and doctoral
students pursuing specializationin literacy. She serves on the
editorial boards of journalsfocused on literacy, education,
research and educational policy,and has served on the boards of
(39:25):
the International LiteracyAssociation and Reading Recovery
Council of North America. Inaddition to experience as a
classroom teacher and a readingspecialist, Rachel holds
graduate certificates in bothquantitative and qualitative
research methods. You can followDr. Gabriel on Twitter at Rachel
Gabriel that's at our a c h e ga b r i e. L. Dr. Gabriel is
(39:53):
professor of literacy educationat the University of
Connecticut. For the good of allstudents Classroom caffeine aims
to energize education researchand practice. If this show
provides you with things tothink about, don't keep it a
secret. Subscribe, like andreview this podcast through your
(40:13):
preferred podcast provider. Ialso invite you to connect with
the show through our website atWWW dot classroom caffeine.com
where you can learn more abouteach guest. Find transcripts for
many episodes, explore episodetopics using our tagging
feature, support podcastresearch through our survey,
(40:36):
requested episode topic or apotential guest or share your
own questions that we mightrespond to through the show. You
could also leave us a voicemessage or a text message at
1-941-212-0949. We would love tohear from you. As always, I
raised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
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