January 3, 2023 • 26 mins
Dr. Theresa Rogers talks to us about politics in the lives of young people, adolescents’ multimodal responses to the world, and engaging young people in critical literacies to help them prepare for unknown futures. Dr. Rogers is known for her work in the areas of adolescent/youth literacies and critical perspectives on literature teaching. Her recent articles and the book, Youth, Critical Literacies and Civic Engagement: Arts, Media and Literacy in the Lives of Adolescents, focus on the critical and creative work of youth across communities and schools -- a multi-year study located in Vancouver, Canada. She is currently working on a project on spatiality, mobilities and critical literary interpretation. She is a Professor of Language and Literacy Education at the University of British Columbia where she teaches courses in adolescent literacies and literature teaching and continues to conduct research with teachers and youth. Her work can be found at https://ubc.academia.edu/TheresaRogers
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Jan. 3). A conversation with Theresa Rogers. (Season 3, No. 15) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/F5C6-81FA-3144-28AB-FC29-Q
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Persohn (00:00):
In education research has a problem. The work
(00:14):
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
from years of research andexperiences. In this episode,
(00:37):
Dr. Teresa Rogers talks to usabout politics in the lives of
young people, adolescentsmultimodal responses to the
world and engaging young peoplein critical literacies. To help
them prepare for unknownfutures. Dr. Rogers is known for
her work in the areas ofadolescent youth literacies and
critical perspectives onliterature teaching. Her recent
(00:59):
articles and the book youthcritical literacies and Civic
Engagement Arts, Media andliteracy in the lives of
adolescents focus on thecritical and creative work of
youth across Communities inSchools, a multi year study
located in Vancouver, Canada.
She is currently professor oflanguage and literacy education
at the University of BritishColumbia, where she teaches
(01:19):
courses in adolescent literaciesand literature teaching and
continues to conduct researchwith teachers and youth. For
more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode. So pour a cup ofyour favorite drink. And join me
your host, Lindsay Persohn. Forclassroom caffeine research to
(01:39):
energize your teaching practice.
Terry, thank you for joining me,welcome to the show.
Theresa Rogers (01:47):
It's nice to be here. Thank you, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (01:49):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now.
Theresa Rogers (01:58):
So for me, it's less moments than a time when
there was such a richconstellation of ideas. And for
me, I was lucky enough toexperience that while I was in
my teacher training program, soI was a master's in a master's
program. And it was the veryearly 80s. And all cognitive
psychology was just becoming areally fundamental area of
(02:22):
research for us in literacy, andscholarship. And the focus, of
course, is people all are quitefamiliar with now is how readers
construct meaning. And itdoesn't seem revolutionary now
is an idea. But of course, thenit was quite a new way to think
about how kids were makingmeaning in the classroom. For
(02:43):
those of us who always wereinclined to listen to kids, gave
us a good excuse to reallylisten to what they were saying
and listen to how they weremaking meaning. So I also came
across the work of Don Murray,at that time, and he wrote this
great book called The writerteacher's writings, which is
really the same kind of thing.
It was really looking at howkids compose meaning. And so
together, those ideas of reallylistening to what kids are
(03:06):
saying, in print and text, inconversation in the classroom,
really set the stage for the wayI taught when I became a
teacher. And I worked withadolescents. So I really felt
like they have such a wonderfularray of ideas, aspirations,
passions, commitments, and beingable to really listen to those
and take them seriously and workwith those ideas, was really
(03:29):
liberating. I think, for me, itmade teaching quite a joy. The
second big moment for me reallywas when I then started my
doctoral program, and cameacross all the work in response
to literature reader responsetheory, and got interested in
looking closely at howadolescents interpret
(03:49):
literature. And I want to saythat one person who influenced
me, probably in a way that I nowrealize is more fundamental than
I realized at the time is LouiseRosenblatt. And that is because
if you look at her first book,which is called literature's
exploration, most people knowher, her second book, but this
book really comes out of her ownexperience in World War Two
(04:14):
where she was worked inintelligence. And she really was
concerned about democracy,rightly so experiencing that
World War Two, and she wasworried about it in the United
States as well as is in theworld. And of course, it was
kind of prophetic. We think nowwhen we think about how we're
(04:35):
dealing with the fragility ofdemocracy right now. But so, so
the notion that dialogue was thecenter of literature teaching,
but really, she was alsothinking that it was the center
of a democracy what keeps ademocracy strong, so so that was
profound for me and reading, notjust her work, but all of the
(04:56):
work of the reader responsetheorists like the working cog
Psychology opened up thepossibilities of looking closely
at how young people areinterpreting literature. What
strategies are they using? Howcan we build on what they bring
to us, rather than telling them,you know, the old reading of the
poem and then saying, What doesthis mean and having stricken
(05:16):
looking faces across theclassroom, but really helping
them develop their ownstrategies for for reading
literature and making makingmeaning out of it. And I was
lucky enough to work with AlanPurvis on his book, second
edition of his book, howporcupines make love, where we
really were able to take, takethose ideas and make them really
(05:37):
practical. I don't know ifanybody even read that book
anymore. But at the time, it wasa quite a popular book for
secondary English teachers. Soso those were really huge
influences on me. And especiallyas that work moved into a more
critical and cultural framing,which is where I would situate
my work. Now, we have such arich array of critical
(06:01):
perspectives that we can nowbring to the teaching of
literacy and literature in theclassroom, including many of the
recent theoretical perspectives,such as feminist perspectives,
cultural material perspectives,post humanist and ecological and
dare I mentioned critical racetheory, which is, of course, a
huge issue right now, which I'mhappy to talk about, if that's
(06:24):
of interest.
Lindsay Persohn (06:28):
I'm sure it would be of interest. You know,
it's a it's certainly a topicthat has made some splashy
headlines, and I think islargely misunderstood in many
circles. And I, it could be veryhelpful, I think, if you were to
share a bit of what you know,and what you what you've done,
or on critical race theory, andwhat teachers might be able to
(06:48):
use as a way to understand notonly this moment, I think, in
our social history, but what iscritical race theory actually
mean when we're talking about acritical perspective of
literature, not necessarily thepopular understanding, or
misunderstanding,
Theresa Rogers (07:05):
all right, I'll be brief, because you may have
people that can talk about thisat a deeper level than I can,
but while I want to say is that,of course, critical race theory
came out of a law schoolperspective. And it really looks
at the way racism isstructurally embedded in our
laws and our institutions. Andit has been broadened out for
(07:27):
educators to look at it as a wayof thinking also about
structural racism in ourinstitutions and our laws. I
don't think people are teachingthis in the elementary schools,
they just aren't. So I don'tknow, that's such an interesting
play by conservatives in the USto say, to make us all so
frightened, you know, kind of ascare tactic. Oh, my God, we're
(07:49):
teaching our kids critical racetheory. I don't think that's
happening. But the perspectivethat racism is embedded in our
institutions in our in ourhistory, as you know, I speak to
now from Canada, but I grew upin the United States, is really
an important concept, I think,as students get a bit older, and
(08:11):
it's a useful way of looking at,I'm sure across the curriculum
at a variety of texts. Andcertainly, I've used it in
literary study to look at howstructural racism is reflected
and represented in literaryworks, and how we can tease that
apart to look at it moreclosely. I think that's a really
rich learning experience foryoung people. So I don't know
(08:33):
what to say about howpoliticized it's become in the
US. It's really a shame.
Lindsay Persohn (08:40):
Yeah, because it really is just it's a lens
for examining materials. Andright, as you said, I don't
think that there's anyone outthere who's teaching this theory
of law in elementary schoolclassrooms. But, you know, it
seems that we all have a commongoal that we want children and
adolescents and, of course, evenadults to be thinkers, to look
(09:01):
critically at text and toidentify what's there and what
isn't. And, as I said, I thinkCRT is just one more lens that
we can do that through. So Iappreciate that. I appreciate
you sharing that with us. SoTerry, what do you want
listeners to know about yourwork?
Theresa Rogers (09:18):
So I suppose it's quite evident. But what I
really want people to know isthat there is this kind of small
p i call it small p politics,running through my work from the
beginning all the way from thebeginning, till now. So I think
this is probably reflected in mymost recent book in 2015, where
I wrote a book called Youthcritical literacies and civic
engagement. So again, that themeof democracy and critical
(09:41):
literacies runs through thatentire project, where I looked
at how young people marshall thevarious resources of Arts, Media
and literacy to say what was ontheir minds and the youth I
worked with, in communities inthis case, were experiencing one
group was experiencinghomelessness one group had
(10:02):
experienced violence in theirlives. And so they were working
against violence with otheryouth. And so these resources,
as I call them of Arts, Mediaand literacy, critical
literacies, and variousmultimedia multimodal resources,
supported their ability to talkabout their experiences, their
hopes, their aspirations, aswell as to speak back to the
(10:29):
policies, the systems and soforth that, that they wanted to
change. What was so amazingabout the work, I thought from
the beginning was the way theyengaged in humor and parity and
other critical approaches toseeing what they wanted to say.
So they worked on poetry zines,various visual artifacts. And so
(10:51):
just to give you an example, oneof the young women created a
kind of an ad. And it mimickedthat famous MasterCard ad, if
you remember it from the late90s, I think, where she wrote,
she had a visual of a youngperson sitting on the street.
And then she had next to a text,slice of pizza, $1 a pack of
(11:13):
smokes $5 This is a while ago,your own place to live away from
the streets priceless. And Ijust thought that was so
effective on so many levels,that, you know, it's so few
words, and in incorporating thatad genre, in such a clever way,
(11:33):
was just really amazing. And sothat's the kind of work they
produced. And the youth on thestreets in particular, they
talked back against assumptionsthat we might have, like how the
community in the streets werekind of home and community to
them, at least temporarily. Andmany of them had aspirations to,
to conduct more traditional, ifyou will, lives with work and
(11:55):
family and so forth. But at thattime, they wanted to advocate
for them where they were at thatmoment, and where they were at
that moment was living on thestreets, because the situations
they left were not good. And sowe needed to understand why
youth end up living on thestreets, even temporarily. And
so they would really, and wemade films, we did all kinds of
(12:16):
things. And it's all, it's allarchived in the book. So for
instance, one youth made a filmabout why there needed to be
various kinds of resources forthem in the part of the city
that they were inhabiting. Idon't know if you know,
Vancouver, in British Columbiaat all. But there is what they
call the Downtown Eastside,which is a catchment area for
(12:37):
many people who unfortunately,have addictions to drugs, and
they're homeless and otherissues in their lives. And so
the youth were saying to go downthere was triggering for them,
and that they really wantedresources in the community that
they were residing in. And therewere all kinds of statements
(13:00):
like that through again, thatwas through a film that were
really policy statements. And Ifonly, if only we would listen,
again, listen to young people,they had lots of really
important things to say. Andsometimes they did get onto
radio shows and other things toget closer to the powers that be
and they did. One, at one point,they created a play, and they
(13:25):
performed it. And so they didget out into the community. And
they didn't have real public'sviewing and listening to their
work, which was great. I justfeel like there should be more
of that. They were so acutelyaware of the broken promises, if
you will of our society. Andthey had so much to say that we
should be listening to for theend of this quite a long
(13:47):
project. I just really felt likeI wanted to advocate more and
more for bringing some of theseideas and skills back into the
classroom. I feel like andagain, this is my concern about
the fragility of democracy, andhow do we create citizens for
democracy to make it thrive. Andone way to do that is to have
critical literacy practices inour classrooms. Here, what young
(14:11):
people want to say here abouttheir ideas for what should
change, and give them ways ofexpressing that through multiple
modalities. And because I mean,I still believe that schools and
public schools in particularschools are the cornerstone of
our democracy, our democracies,were different ones right now.
(14:32):
And so I think we just have tokeep remembering that. And I
just think about that a lot whenI listen to the news in the US
and how schools have become sucha site of political battles in
Lindsay Persohn (14:44):
schools have certainly become contentious
places, particularly in the lastseveral years, I would say. But,
Terry, as you were describingthat project, I was envisioning
how that might play out and inclassrooms and I see so much
utility in this idea ofidentifying a problem that's
meaningful to us that impactsour lives. And certainly, you
(15:06):
know, if we're just gettingstarted on this, you can confine
that to the gates of school thefences of schools these days,
and ask kids and adolescents,what it is that they really care
about. And what it is that'seither positively impacting
them, and they want to shine alight on or things that are that
are bringing them down orkeeping them from succeeding at
school. And as you highlightedthe advertisement, the mock
(15:30):
advertisement that theadolescent did in your project,
and you know, I could see thatbeing a really powerful part of
a communication tool, betweenschool administrators and
students to so they really canshow what it is that they need
from the leaders at their schoolin order to encourage civic
engagement, not only now, butfor the future, but to show them
(15:51):
that they do have opportunitiesto, as you said, Talk back
against assumptions andstereotypes, because I think
that that's also something thatthat happens all too often in
schools, we assume a lot aboutkids. And I know, at least for
the adolescents in my life,they're pretty awesome. But
that's not always what we thinkabout them as a group. So I
(16:12):
really appreciate youhighlighting the way that we can
bring their voice to the workthat policymakers are doing, and
whether those are policymakerswithin schools, communities,
states countries, you know,certainly young people are our
stakeholders, and we know thatthey're the next generation. So
yeah, bringing their voice inand hearing what they have to
say is so important.
Theresa Rogers (16:33):
You're absolutely right. I think I
think that this kind of criticalengagement, public engagement,
civic engagement, there's somany terms for it is, is starts
really locally, absolutelyprojects in schools, where
students can engage with theiradministration or even with
their local communities, andreally look at what's going on
(16:53):
in their communities and localabout what's, what kind of
change is good. What kind ofchanges is still needed? You
know, and I think, like many ofus more and more about the
climate, as well. I mean, that'sdefinitely a topic that I think
we can engage in, through I canthrough all of these multimedia
resources and the critical toolsthat we have at our disposal,
(17:16):
they're just such a rich set oftools to help kids say, again,
what it is they want to say whatthey want to change, really
listening to them, is what Iwould like to see going on in in
classrooms.
Lindsay Persohn (17:31):
Now acknowledging that we are in
fairly different settings. I'min Florida, you're in British
Columbia, there's definitelysome differences there. I'm
wondering if you have any tipsor tricks for any teachers who
might be listening to this, whomay feel the tensions and
pressures of standards andstandardized testing, and any
(17:54):
tips on how to navigate thosepressures while offering
opportunities for young peopleto share their voice and share
their work?
Theresa Rogers (18:02):
We have testing here, right? Of course, of
course, the testing is a littlebit different. It's a little
more expansive, and what whatgets tested, although it really
is a channeling tool forstudents getting into
university. So again, I mean,that itself, it's something that
young people could look at andexamine and how is it that
(18:24):
schools and curriculum isstructured to, you know, this
work goes back decades now toreally, you know, put students
in different classes, if youwill, and to just create
different trajectories fordifferent students? I mean, you
can look at those kinds ofissues, right, in your own
school invite critique of it.
I'm not saying that you canchange the system overnight. I
(18:48):
mean, I don't know that even thetests that go on here, although
there is much more conversationhere in Canada about abandoning
testing altogether, I don'tknow, there's still also a very
strong political force from theright, that we'll always want to
keep those kinds of things inplace. Because it's a sorting
mechanism, isn't it? That's whatwe want kids to know. That's how
(19:10):
these kinds of things getembedded on our institutions.
And that's the analysis, do theanalysis of it at the same time
as maybe you have to deal withit. But do do the kind of
analysis of there's all kinds ofissues like that, that we can
use. And we have all thesecritical tools and lenses we can
now use to really supportstudents to say what it is,
(19:32):
again, they want to say and howthey want to see the world
change.
Lindsay Persohn (19:38):
I think that's a fantastic recommendation to
take that that challenge thatreal world challenge of
classroom teachers and turn thatover to students find out what
they think about it and whattheir possible solutions are,
how they might envision theworld a bit differently. So
thank you for that.
Theresa Rogers (19:54):
I mean, one thing I've always thought about
right from the beginning of mycareer is you know, the whole
notion of authority like toyours have such authority. But
how do you give that authorityback to the students in your
classroom? How did they becomethe authorities. And so you can
still manage beautifully aclassroom, but you can give the
(20:14):
knowledge the authority forknowledge building and knowledge
creating and meaning making backto the students in your
classroom.
Lindsay Persohn (20:21):
So, Terry, given the challenges of today's
educational climate, we'vecertainly touched on a few here,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Theresa Rogers (20:29):
I think, again, the more the more they think
critically, the more weencourage critical thinking in
our classrooms. Again, this wasway back to the beginning of my
career, encouraging people tothink about the world, whether
again, it's about climate,economic equity, racial
(20:50):
equities, really challengingthem with these big ideas, and
give them a chance to delve intothem, give them many, many
multimodal tools to expressthemselves. I've worked with all
kinds of young people, some whohave in quite severe learning
difficulties, but can create abeautiful film, maybe they can't
(21:13):
read it slowly. But they cancreate a beautiful film, one
case, a young person created afilm about the Holocaust. Nobody
gave him any credit for it forany kind of accomplishments in
the classroom. And then he gotintrigued by what happened
during the Holocaust. And hecreated a film because he had
great audio visual skills. Buthe couldn't read so people
(21:33):
didn't know. And so just so givethem the right tools at the
right time. I know that's a bigask of teachers when you have
25, 30 however many students inyour classroom, but if you can
make those things available, andgive them the opportunity to
answer big questions, ask bigquestions, answer big questions,
I think you're gonna have a richclassroom base.
Lindsay Persohn (21:55):
Thank you for that. And I think that
highlighting that opportunity towork with different types of
tools, offering those tostudents and letting them
discover, you know, what's themode in which they they
communicate best? Or how do theywant to share their message? You
know, I think it's easy to getlocked into thinking about,
(22:16):
well, it used to be paper andpencil, maybe it's now you know,
just words on a digital screen.
But with music and movement andthe world of editing, you know,
claymation, you know, cartoon,there are just so many ways that
we can tap into different kindsof knowledge that students have,
it does feel like we are sellingkids a little short if we only
(22:36):
give them one way to communicatethrough words. So I appreciate
reminding us of that.
Theresa Rogers (22:44):
It makes me wish I was back in the classroom with
secondary students. I have tosay, I kind of envy teachers who
have all those tools at theirdisposal now.
Lindsay Persohn (22:51):
there are a lot of exciting opportunities.
Absolutely. Terry, thank you somuch for your time today. And I
thank you for sharing yourthoughts. And thank you also for
your tremendous contributions tothe world of education.
Theresa Rogers (23:04):
Well, thank you, Lindsay. It's been a pleasure.
Lindsay Persohn (23:06):
Thank you. Dr.
Teresa Rogers is known for herwork in the areas of adolescent
and youth literacies andcritical perspectives on
literature teaching her recentarticles and the book youth
critical literacies and CivicEngagement Arts, Media and
literacy in the lives ofadolescents focused on the
critical and creative work ofyouth across communities and
schools through a multi yearstudy located in Vancouver,
(23:29):
Canada. That project ranged fromworking with youth experiencing
homelessness in the city, to anafter school community program
where students created videosagainst violence to a devised
theatre production of asecondary school. In all cases,
the young people in the projectengage in arts media and various
literacies to engage with thepublic and in their communities.
(23:51):
engagements that she argues arecentral to the role of education
in democratic societies. Teresaalso co authored and CO edited
now classic books on literatureteaching, including how
porcupines make love threereader texts cultures in the
literature, classroom andreading across cultures, and
several recent articles onspatialized perspective on
(24:13):
analyzing and teaching youngadult literature. She's the
author of numerous articles thathave appeared in venues such as
reading Research QuarterlyJournal of literacy research,
children's literature andeducation pedagogies Journal of
adolescent and adult literacieslanguage arts, English teaching
practice and critique, and theOxford research encyclopedia.
(24:35):
Dr. Rogers is currentlyprofessor of language and
literacy education at theUniversity of British Columbia.
To connect with Theresa onlinevisit UBC dot academia dot u
backslash Teresa Rogers. That'su b c.acadmia.edu. Will
backslash t h e r e s a r o g er s. For the good of all
(25:06):
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
and practice. If this showprovides you have things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
(25:29):
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hear from you. As always, Iraised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
In education research has a problem. The work
(00:14):
of brilliant educationresearchers often doesn't reach
the practice of brilliantteachers. Classroom caffeine is
here to help. In each episode Italk with a top education
researcher or an expert educatorabout what they have learned
from years of research andexperiences. In this episode,
(00:37):
Dr. Teresa Rogers talks to usabout politics in the lives of
young people, adolescentsmultimodal responses to the
world and engaging young peoplein critical literacies. To help
them prepare for unknownfutures. Dr. Rogers is known for
her work in the areas ofadolescent youth literacies and
critical perspectives onliterature teaching. Her recent
(00:59):
articles and the book youthcritical literacies and Civic
Engagement Arts, Media andliteracy in the lives of
adolescents focus on thecritical and creative work of
youth across Communities inSchools, a multi year study
located in Vancouver, Canada.
She is currently professor oflanguage and literacy education
at the University of BritishColumbia, where she teaches
(01:19):
courses in adolescent literaciesand literature teaching and
continues to conduct researchwith teachers and youth. For
more information about ourguest, stay tuned to the end of
this episode. So pour a cup ofyour favorite drink. And join me
your host, Lindsay Persohn. Forclassroom caffeine research to
(01:39):
energize your teaching practice.
Terry, thank you for joining me,welcome to the show.
Theresa Rogers (01:47):
It's nice to be here. Thank you, Lindsay.
Lindsay Persohn (01:49):
So from your own experiences and education,
will you share with us one ortwo moments that inform your
thinking now.
Theresa Rogers (01:58):
So for me, it's less moments than a time when
there was such a richconstellation of ideas. And for
me, I was lucky enough toexperience that while I was in
my teacher training program, soI was a master's in a master's
program. And it was the veryearly 80s. And all cognitive
psychology was just becoming areally fundamental area of
(02:22):
research for us in literacy, andscholarship. And the focus, of
course, is people all are quitefamiliar with now is how readers
construct meaning. And itdoesn't seem revolutionary now
is an idea. But of course, thenit was quite a new way to think
about how kids were makingmeaning in the classroom. For
(02:43):
those of us who always wereinclined to listen to kids, gave
us a good excuse to reallylisten to what they were saying
and listen to how they weremaking meaning. So I also came
across the work of Don Murray,at that time, and he wrote this
great book called The writerteacher's writings, which is
really the same kind of thing.
It was really looking at howkids compose meaning. And so
together, those ideas of reallylistening to what kids are
(03:06):
saying, in print and text, inconversation in the classroom,
really set the stage for the wayI taught when I became a
teacher. And I worked withadolescents. So I really felt
like they have such a wonderfularray of ideas, aspirations,
passions, commitments, and beingable to really listen to those
and take them seriously and workwith those ideas, was really
(03:29):
liberating. I think, for me, itmade teaching quite a joy. The
second big moment for me reallywas when I then started my
doctoral program, and cameacross all the work in response
to literature reader responsetheory, and got interested in
looking closely at howadolescents interpret
(03:49):
literature. And I want to saythat one person who influenced
me, probably in a way that I nowrealize is more fundamental than
I realized at the time is LouiseRosenblatt. And that is because
if you look at her first book,which is called literature's
exploration, most people knowher, her second book, but this
book really comes out of her ownexperience in World War Two
(04:14):
where she was worked inintelligence. And she really was
concerned about democracy,rightly so experiencing that
World War Two, and she wasworried about it in the United
States as well as is in theworld. And of course, it was
kind of prophetic. We think nowwhen we think about how we're
(04:35):
dealing with the fragility ofdemocracy right now. But so, so
the notion that dialogue was thecenter of literature teaching,
but really, she was alsothinking that it was the center
of a democracy what keeps ademocracy strong, so so that was
profound for me and reading, notjust her work, but all of the
(04:56):
work of the reader responsetheorists like the working cog
Psychology opened up thepossibilities of looking closely
at how young people areinterpreting literature. What
strategies are they using? Howcan we build on what they bring
to us, rather than telling them,you know, the old reading of the
poem and then saying, What doesthis mean and having stricken
(05:16):
looking faces across theclassroom, but really helping
them develop their ownstrategies for for reading
literature and making makingmeaning out of it. And I was
lucky enough to work with AlanPurvis on his book, second
edition of his book, howporcupines make love, where we
really were able to take, takethose ideas and make them really
(05:37):
practical. I don't know ifanybody even read that book
anymore. But at the time, it wasa quite a popular book for
secondary English teachers. Soso those were really huge
influences on me. And especiallyas that work moved into a more
critical and cultural framing,which is where I would situate
my work. Now, we have such arich array of critical
(06:01):
perspectives that we can nowbring to the teaching of
literacy and literature in theclassroom, including many of the
recent theoretical perspectives,such as feminist perspectives,
cultural material perspectives,post humanist and ecological and
dare I mentioned critical racetheory, which is, of course, a
huge issue right now, which I'mhappy to talk about, if that's
(06:24):
of interest.
Lindsay Persohn (06:28):
I'm sure it would be of interest. You know,
it's a it's certainly a topicthat has made some splashy
headlines, and I think islargely misunderstood in many
circles. And I, it could be veryhelpful, I think, if you were to
share a bit of what you know,and what you what you've done,
or on critical race theory, andwhat teachers might be able to
(06:48):
use as a way to understand notonly this moment, I think, in
our social history, but what iscritical race theory actually
mean when we're talking about acritical perspective of
literature, not necessarily thepopular understanding, or
misunderstanding,
Theresa Rogers (07:05):
all right, I'll be brief, because you may have
people that can talk about thisat a deeper level than I can,
but while I want to say is that,of course, critical race theory
came out of a law schoolperspective. And it really looks
at the way racism isstructurally embedded in our
laws and our institutions. Andit has been broadened out for
(07:27):
educators to look at it as a wayof thinking also about
structural racism in ourinstitutions and our laws. I
don't think people are teachingthis in the elementary schools,
they just aren't. So I don'tknow, that's such an interesting
play by conservatives in the USto say, to make us all so
frightened, you know, kind of ascare tactic. Oh, my God, we're
(07:49):
teaching our kids critical racetheory. I don't think that's
happening. But the perspectivethat racism is embedded in our
institutions in our in ourhistory, as you know, I speak to
now from Canada, but I grew upin the United States, is really
an important concept, I think,as students get a bit older, and
(08:11):
it's a useful way of looking at,I'm sure across the curriculum
at a variety of texts. Andcertainly, I've used it in
literary study to look at howstructural racism is reflected
and represented in literaryworks, and how we can tease that
apart to look at it moreclosely. I think that's a really
rich learning experience foryoung people. So I don't know
(08:33):
what to say about howpoliticized it's become in the
US. It's really a shame.
Lindsay Persohn (08:40):
Yeah, because it really is just it's a lens
for examining materials. Andright, as you said, I don't
think that there's anyone outthere who's teaching this theory
of law in elementary schoolclassrooms. But, you know, it
seems that we all have a commongoal that we want children and
adolescents and, of course, evenadults to be thinkers, to look
(09:01):
critically at text and toidentify what's there and what
isn't. And, as I said, I thinkCRT is just one more lens that
we can do that through. So Iappreciate that. I appreciate
you sharing that with us. SoTerry, what do you want
listeners to know about yourwork?
Theresa Rogers (09:18):
So I suppose it's quite evident. But what I
really want people to know isthat there is this kind of small
p i call it small p politics,running through my work from the
beginning all the way from thebeginning, till now. So I think
this is probably reflected in mymost recent book in 2015, where
I wrote a book called Youthcritical literacies and civic
engagement. So again, that themeof democracy and critical
(09:41):
literacies runs through thatentire project, where I looked
at how young people marshall thevarious resources of Arts, Media
and literacy to say what was ontheir minds and the youth I
worked with, in communities inthis case, were experiencing one
group was experiencinghomelessness one group had
(10:02):
experienced violence in theirlives. And so they were working
against violence with otheryouth. And so these resources,
as I call them of Arts, Mediaand literacy, critical
literacies, and variousmultimedia multimodal resources,
supported their ability to talkabout their experiences, their
hopes, their aspirations, aswell as to speak back to the
(10:29):
policies, the systems and soforth that, that they wanted to
change. What was so amazingabout the work, I thought from
the beginning was the way theyengaged in humor and parity and
other critical approaches toseeing what they wanted to say.
So they worked on poetry zines,various visual artifacts. And so
(10:51):
just to give you an example, oneof the young women created a
kind of an ad. And it mimickedthat famous MasterCard ad, if
you remember it from the late90s, I think, where she wrote,
she had a visual of a youngperson sitting on the street.
And then she had next to a text,slice of pizza, $1 a pack of
(11:13):
smokes $5 This is a while ago,your own place to live away from
the streets priceless. And Ijust thought that was so
effective on so many levels,that, you know, it's so few
words, and in incorporating thatad genre, in such a clever way,
(11:33):
was just really amazing. And sothat's the kind of work they
produced. And the youth on thestreets in particular, they
talked back against assumptionsthat we might have, like how the
community in the streets werekind of home and community to
them, at least temporarily. Andmany of them had aspirations to,
to conduct more traditional, ifyou will, lives with work and
(11:55):
family and so forth. But at thattime, they wanted to advocate
for them where they were at thatmoment, and where they were at
that moment was living on thestreets, because the situations
they left were not good. And sowe needed to understand why
youth end up living on thestreets, even temporarily. And
so they would really, and wemade films, we did all kinds of
(12:16):
things. And it's all, it's allarchived in the book. So for
instance, one youth made a filmabout why there needed to be
various kinds of resources forthem in the part of the city
that they were inhabiting. Idon't know if you know,
Vancouver, in British Columbiaat all. But there is what they
call the Downtown Eastside,which is a catchment area for
(12:37):
many people who unfortunately,have addictions to drugs, and
they're homeless and otherissues in their lives. And so
the youth were saying to go downthere was triggering for them,
and that they really wantedresources in the community that
they were residing in. And therewere all kinds of statements
(13:00):
like that through again, thatwas through a film that were
really policy statements. And Ifonly, if only we would listen,
again, listen to young people,they had lots of really
important things to say. Andsometimes they did get onto
radio shows and other things toget closer to the powers that be
and they did. One, at one point,they created a play, and they
(13:25):
performed it. And so they didget out into the community. And
they didn't have real public'sviewing and listening to their
work, which was great. I justfeel like there should be more
of that. They were so acutelyaware of the broken promises, if
you will of our society. Andthey had so much to say that we
should be listening to for theend of this quite a long
(13:47):
project. I just really felt likeI wanted to advocate more and
more for bringing some of theseideas and skills back into the
classroom. I feel like andagain, this is my concern about
the fragility of democracy, andhow do we create citizens for
democracy to make it thrive. Andone way to do that is to have
critical literacy practices inour classrooms. Here, what young
(14:11):
people want to say here abouttheir ideas for what should
change, and give them ways ofexpressing that through multiple
modalities. And because I mean,I still believe that schools and
public schools in particularschools are the cornerstone of
our democracy, our democracies,were different ones right now.
(14:32):
And so I think we just have tokeep remembering that. And I
just think about that a lot whenI listen to the news in the US
and how schools have become sucha site of political battles in
Lindsay Persohn (14:44):
schools have certainly become contentious
places, particularly in the lastseveral years, I would say. But,
Terry, as you were describingthat project, I was envisioning
how that might play out and inclassrooms and I see so much
utility in this idea ofidentifying a problem that's
meaningful to us that impactsour lives. And certainly, you
(15:06):
know, if we're just gettingstarted on this, you can confine
that to the gates of school thefences of schools these days,
and ask kids and adolescents,what it is that they really care
about. And what it is that'seither positively impacting
them, and they want to shine alight on or things that are that
are bringing them down orkeeping them from succeeding at
school. And as you highlightedthe advertisement, the mock
(15:30):
advertisement that theadolescent did in your project,
and you know, I could see thatbeing a really powerful part of
a communication tool, betweenschool administrators and
students to so they really canshow what it is that they need
from the leaders at their schoolin order to encourage civic
engagement, not only now, butfor the future, but to show them
(15:51):
that they do have opportunitiesto, as you said, Talk back
against assumptions andstereotypes, because I think
that that's also something thatthat happens all too often in
schools, we assume a lot aboutkids. And I know, at least for
the adolescents in my life,they're pretty awesome. But
that's not always what we thinkabout them as a group. So I
(16:12):
really appreciate youhighlighting the way that we can
bring their voice to the workthat policymakers are doing, and
whether those are policymakerswithin schools, communities,
states countries, you know,certainly young people are our
stakeholders, and we know thatthey're the next generation. So
yeah, bringing their voice inand hearing what they have to
say is so important.
Theresa Rogers (16:33):
You're absolutely right. I think I
think that this kind of criticalengagement, public engagement,
civic engagement, there's somany terms for it is, is starts
really locally, absolutelyprojects in schools, where
students can engage with theiradministration or even with
their local communities, andreally look at what's going on
(16:53):
in their communities and localabout what's, what kind of
change is good. What kind ofchanges is still needed? You
know, and I think, like many ofus more and more about the
climate, as well. I mean, that'sdefinitely a topic that I think
we can engage in, through I canthrough all of these multimedia
resources and the critical toolsthat we have at our disposal,
(17:16):
they're just such a rich set oftools to help kids say, again,
what it is they want to say whatthey want to change, really
listening to them, is what Iwould like to see going on in in
classrooms.
Lindsay Persohn (17:31):
Now acknowledging that we are in
fairly different settings. I'min Florida, you're in British
Columbia, there's definitelysome differences there. I'm
wondering if you have any tipsor tricks for any teachers who
might be listening to this, whomay feel the tensions and
pressures of standards andstandardized testing, and any
(17:54):
tips on how to navigate thosepressures while offering
opportunities for young peopleto share their voice and share
their work?
Theresa Rogers (18:02):
We have testing here, right? Of course, of
course, the testing is a littlebit different. It's a little
more expansive, and what whatgets tested, although it really
is a channeling tool forstudents getting into
university. So again, I mean,that itself, it's something that
young people could look at andexamine and how is it that
(18:24):
schools and curriculum isstructured to, you know, this
work goes back decades now toreally, you know, put students
in different classes, if youwill, and to just create
different trajectories fordifferent students? I mean, you
can look at those kinds ofissues, right, in your own
school invite critique of it.
I'm not saying that you canchange the system overnight. I
(18:48):
mean, I don't know that even thetests that go on here, although
there is much more conversationhere in Canada about abandoning
testing altogether, I don'tknow, there's still also a very
strong political force from theright, that we'll always want to
keep those kinds of things inplace. Because it's a sorting
mechanism, isn't it? That's whatwe want kids to know. That's how
(19:10):
these kinds of things getembedded on our institutions.
And that's the analysis, do theanalysis of it at the same time
as maybe you have to deal withit. But do do the kind of
analysis of there's all kinds ofissues like that, that we can
use. And we have all thesecritical tools and lenses we can
now use to really supportstudents to say what it is,
(19:32):
again, they want to say and howthey want to see the world
change.
Lindsay Persohn (19:38):
I think that's a fantastic recommendation to
take that that challenge thatreal world challenge of
classroom teachers and turn thatover to students find out what
they think about it and whattheir possible solutions are,
how they might envision theworld a bit differently. So
thank you for that.
Theresa Rogers (19:54):
I mean, one thing I've always thought about
right from the beginning of mycareer is you know, the whole
notion of authority like toyours have such authority. But
how do you give that authorityback to the students in your
classroom? How did they becomethe authorities. And so you can
still manage beautifully aclassroom, but you can give the
(20:14):
knowledge the authority forknowledge building and knowledge
creating and meaning making backto the students in your
classroom.
Lindsay Persohn (20:21):
So, Terry, given the challenges of today's
educational climate, we'vecertainly touched on a few here,
what message do you wantteachers to hear?
Theresa Rogers (20:29):
I think, again, the more the more they think
critically, the more weencourage critical thinking in
our classrooms. Again, this wasway back to the beginning of my
career, encouraging people tothink about the world, whether
again, it's about climate,economic equity, racial
(20:50):
equities, really challengingthem with these big ideas, and
give them a chance to delve intothem, give them many, many
multimodal tools to expressthemselves. I've worked with all
kinds of young people, some whohave in quite severe learning
difficulties, but can create abeautiful film, maybe they can't
(21:13):
read it slowly. But they cancreate a beautiful film, one
case, a young person created afilm about the Holocaust. Nobody
gave him any credit for it forany kind of accomplishments in
the classroom. And then he gotintrigued by what happened
during the Holocaust. And hecreated a film because he had
great audio visual skills. Buthe couldn't read so people
(21:33):
didn't know. And so just so givethem the right tools at the
right time. I know that's a bigask of teachers when you have
25, 30 however many students inyour classroom, but if you can
make those things available, andgive them the opportunity to
answer big questions, ask bigquestions, answer big questions,
I think you're gonna have a richclassroom base.
Lindsay Persohn (21:55):
Thank you for that. And I think that
highlighting that opportunity towork with different types of
tools, offering those tostudents and letting them
discover, you know, what's themode in which they they
communicate best? Or how do theywant to share their message? You
know, I think it's easy to getlocked into thinking about,
(22:16):
well, it used to be paper andpencil, maybe it's now you know,
just words on a digital screen.
But with music and movement andthe world of editing, you know,
claymation, you know, cartoon,there are just so many ways that
we can tap into different kindsof knowledge that students have,
it does feel like we are sellingkids a little short if we only
(22:36):
give them one way to communicatethrough words. So I appreciate
reminding us of that.
Theresa Rogers (22:44):
It makes me wish I was back in the classroom with
secondary students. I have tosay, I kind of envy teachers who
have all those tools at theirdisposal now.
Lindsay Persohn (22:51):
there are a lot of exciting opportunities.
Absolutely. Terry, thank you somuch for your time today. And I
thank you for sharing yourthoughts. And thank you also for
your tremendous contributions tothe world of education.
Theresa Rogers (23:04):
Well, thank you, Lindsay. It's been a pleasure.
Lindsay Persohn (23:06):
Thank you. Dr.
Teresa Rogers is known for herwork in the areas of adolescent
and youth literacies andcritical perspectives on
literature teaching her recentarticles and the book youth
critical literacies and CivicEngagement Arts, Media and
literacy in the lives ofadolescents focused on the
critical and creative work ofyouth across communities and
schools through a multi yearstudy located in Vancouver,
(23:29):
Canada. That project ranged fromworking with youth experiencing
homelessness in the city, to anafter school community program
where students created videosagainst violence to a devised
theatre production of asecondary school. In all cases,
the young people in the projectengage in arts media and various
literacies to engage with thepublic and in their communities.
(23:51):
engagements that she argues arecentral to the role of education
in democratic societies. Teresaalso co authored and CO edited
now classic books on literatureteaching, including how
porcupines make love threereader texts cultures in the
literature, classroom andreading across cultures, and
several recent articles onspatialized perspective on
(24:13):
analyzing and teaching youngadult literature. She's the
author of numerous articles thathave appeared in venues such as
reading Research QuarterlyJournal of literacy research,
children's literature andeducation pedagogies Journal of
adolescent and adult literacieslanguage arts, English teaching
practice and critique, and theOxford research encyclopedia.
(24:35):
Dr. Rogers is currentlyprofessor of language and
literacy education at theUniversity of British Columbia.
To connect with Theresa onlinevisit UBC dot academia dot u
backslash Teresa Rogers. That'su b c.acadmia.edu. Will
backslash t h e r e s a r o g er s. For the good of all
(25:06):
students classroom caffeine aimsto energize education research
and practice. If this showprovides you have things to
think about, don't keep it asecret. Subscribe, like and
review this podcast through yourpreferred podcast provider. I
also invite you to connect withthe show through our website at
(25:29):
WWW dot classroom caffeine.comwhere you can learn more about
each guest. Find transcripts formany episodes, explore episode
topics using our taggingfeature, support podcast,
research through our survey,request an episode topic or a
potential guest or share yourown questions that we might
(25:51):
respond to through the show. Youcould also leave us a voice
message or a text message at1-941-212-0949. We would love to
hear from you. As always, Iraised my mug to you teachers.
Thanks for joining me
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