October 11, 2023 • 48 mins
Keith and Sarah Condie of the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute join us to unpack the numbers from Valerie Ling's survey on rates of burnout and resignation thinking among our clergy.
We talk about the often-hidden struggles of church leaders, the pressures they face and the need to have an unwavering façade. The conversation throws a spotlight on the how a lack of encouragement and care can have on ministers, fostering self-doubt and a sense of isolation.
We further look at the meaning of "reputation" in church leadership, characteristics of a compassionate church, and accommodating the unexpected.
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Please be aware that the opinions and viewpoints shared on this podcast are personal to me and my guests, and do not represent the stance of any institution. This podcast aims to present findings for open discussion and dialogue, inviting listeners to engage critically and draw their own conclusions. While the content serves informational purposes, it is not a substitute for professional advice. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Ling (00:05):
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Hi everybody, welcome toanother episode of the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm happy with me, keith andSarah Conde.
I'm really looking forward toour chat today, keith and Sarah.
Thank you, valerie.
Keith Condie (00:44):
Yeah, thanks, Valerie.
Thanks so much for having us.
Valerie Ling (00:47):
Now.
Do you know, Keith, that youare the reason why I do what I
do?
Do you have any memory of aconversation we had about a
decade ago?
Keith Condie (00:59):
I remember us having a conversation, but I
can't remember how it landed inthis particular space, so please
just remind me.
Valerie Ling (01:10):
Well, Keith, I was a solo clinical psychologist
practicing in Sydney not longafter coming back to Australia
from Singapore, where we had aministry season in Singapore,
and I fell into this thingcalled a psychologist.
Clients were looking forChristian psychologists and
(01:32):
particularly I got a lot ofclients who were working in
churches and at the time I saidto Josh, my husband, who was
trained at Moore College.
I said, Josh, what's going on?
Why all the pastors comingthrough?
And we talked about it and Isaid who do you reckon I should
go talk to?
And he said, oh, I reckon KeithConde.
And I don't know how we got incontact, but I did.
(01:59):
I think I emailed you and Iactually distinctly remember
what I said.
I said, Keith, I'm reallygrateful for all the business
that I'm getting from the church, but I'd rather be out of
business when it comes to thistopic.
What's going on?
And you graciously had coffeewith me and then you pointed me
in the direction of where Icould continue these
(02:19):
conversations and that's how itbegan, Keith.
Keith Condie (02:25):
I certainly remember you raising those
matters and I thought you knowwhat I thought at the time.
I thought this is so important.
I'm just not sure whether thepowers of be they have sort of
the energy to pursue this and todo something about it.
That was my real concern.
Valerie Ling (02:42):
Yeah, and by God's grace, you know, a decade later
, I think we are so much moreaware, so much more you know,
wanting to figure out how we can, you know, serve God's people
by serving the church and theirleaders.
So please, keith and Sarah,introduce what it is you are
(03:07):
currently doing.
I'd love to hear from you,maybe Sarah.
Sarah Condie (03:12):
So Keith and I together co-direct the Mental
Health and Pastoral CareInstitute, which is funded and
supported by the AnglicanDeaconess Ministries, and we've
been doing that for seven yearsand really we just want to
develop resources that churchescan use around the area of
(03:35):
mental health, wellbeing andrelationships, because we know
that churches are pretty busyand if we can provide resources
that churches can use, that willhelp.
Yeah, that's really where we'recoming from.
Keith Condie (03:52):
Recognising the stress that ministers are under
and anything we think that canjust resource them quite easily.
That's that's sort of whatwe're trying to do.
The Institute sounds prettyimpressive, but you know you're
looking at it.
Sarah Condie (04:05):
Yeah, it's not very big in like it's us.
Keith Condie (04:10):
Just you know two part-time workers.
Valerie Ling (04:13):
Well, I've heard of your work.
I've heard of how meaningful ithas been and how it has
resourced churches.
So you may feel small but Ithink you know your work has
really provided a lot of goodout there.
So you had a look at some of myfindings.
(04:33):
We might just have an openconversation.
I mean, what stood out for you?
What comes through to you whenyou, when you look at that?
Keith Condie (04:43):
I suppose the first really obvious thing,
Valerie, is that high figure ofburnout symptoms.
You know 30, 36% of the peopleyou surveyed, that's, you know,
that's a lot of people, that'snot a small figure.
So I mean, I know that's obvious, but just putting that on the
table, that there really is aconcern here which you know I
(05:05):
think we need to be alert to andyou know you draw out some of
the sort of implications thatthat flow out of this.
You know, are we going to haveall of these ministers leaving
and you know where are theshepherds for the flock?
So I think it's a major concernthat needs to be addressed.
Valerie Ling (05:27):
And you know my figure is probably even
conservative.
I think you know in the widerliterature you know, we might
actually be seeing that it goesmuch higher.
So I'd up to maybe 50% areunder resourced, heading towards
burnout of clergy.
And it's an interesting thingyou look at a number and you go,
oh yeah, but is that reallythat bad?
(05:49):
I mean, you know 55% are doingOK.
Is that really something for usto be concerned?
And why should we?
Sarah Condie (05:58):
But then you ask, ok, are they really doing OK, or
are they just lower down onthat?
This a sliding scale.
So then maybe they're not atthat burnout phase, but they're
perhaps don't have healthyhabits of how they live their
ministry life and perhaps downthe track they might end up in
(06:19):
that place, yes or yeah.
Like, yeah, I don't know.
Like that I think that's a goodquestion.
Like, can you go back and lookat that 65% and say, well, how
healthy are they?
Keith Condie (06:31):
Like yeah, even so , like this is more than a third
of our ministers and again, Ijust can't remember your exact
stat, I'm sure you've got thetop of your head, is it?
Oh, it's a 40% who haveconsidered serious thoughts of
leaving the ministry, was that?
In the past 12 months.
Valerie Ling (06:51):
Yeah, very close to that figure, yeah, yeah.
Keith Condie (06:55):
OK, so let's just seriously consider, and even if
a a proportion of them make thatdecision, we're losing our
pastures if that's the case.
Sarah Condie (07:09):
It's still a lot.
That's a lot of churches.
Valerie Ling (07:11):
Yes, yeah, you know some people have responded
to me and say, well, that's nottoo far from a general statistic
of the pandemic and I said,well, that is true, but look at
what's happening at schools.
I mean, this was part of mycuriosity when I did the survey.
Yes, you know, the researchcommunity is really responding
(07:31):
so strongly to what's happening,to school principles, you know,
and what's happening in theeducation sector.
We're losing teachers.
The teachers are seriously at.
Schools are really under threat.
It's a domino effect you loseyour leader.
Keith Condie (07:46):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (07:47):
The impact of the community and the morale of
staff.
And then staff leave and youdon't have a pipeline that
generates new principles.
Because in order to be a schoolprincipal you know you've got
to have like a lot of streetcred, leadership skill.
It's a very complicatedleadership position.
(08:07):
It's not that easy to fill.
So when you've got schools thenfacing this crisis and you say,
well, what's so bad about thatfor the church?
You know what's the correlateLike, what's the parallel for us
if we lose.
You know all of that wisdom,all of that leadership capital,
you know.
Keith Condie (08:28):
Yes.
Sarah Condie (08:29):
Well, it's sad and , you know, I just think of the
people in churches.
Like you know, it's verydiscouraging losing a leader,
like whenever you know there's.
I mean that, and if theirpastor is leaving for those
reasons, I think that's that hasa huge impact.
I mean it's the same, yeah.
(08:52):
So I think it's.
I think it's a significantthing to think about.
Valerie Ling (08:58):
Yeah, you know, in terms of the mental health
landscape in the church rightnow.
You know what does it mean fora church who have leaders who
aren't doing well and presumablythe church mental health scene
is also not one that's verystable at the moment, do you
think?
Do you know what I mean?
Keith Condie (09:19):
Yeah, we haven't got any sort of hard data on
that, but you know you just okay, you think about the impact of
COVID obviously pushed many,many people or most of us more
into the sort of the languishingtype mode that was.
You know, that was the word, andthat has an impact.
I think it's interesting,though, when you think about
(09:40):
leaders and the mental health ofthe congregation, there is
something actually helpful abouta little bit of vulnerability
from a leader around mentalhealth or these sorts of you
know, challenges anddifficulties can actually send a
helpful message to thecommunity about.
You know, we can talk aboutthis and we can support each
(10:06):
other in this.
Now, I'm not saying it's a goodthing that ministers have burnt
out, but perhaps for some,being more in touch with their
own vulnerabilities might leadthem to be a little bit more
open from the pulpit in theirprayers and the things that are
set up front in the church, andI think that's quite helpful for
(10:30):
a church culture, because we'veyou know we've talked to people
who have the sense of I don'tbelong in this church.
You know this is a church forbeautiful people and I'm not a
beautiful person.
I don't fit the perception of,you know the face that's
presented by most people.
Valerie Ling (10:49):
One of the most common questions we get in, you
know, ministry, with ourministry spaces, is is it okay
to be vulnerable?
How much can I share, how muchdon't I share?
You know, yes.
Keith Condie (11:05):
Because there is oversharing and in a way that
you know will actually underminepeople's confidence in a pastor
.
So, you know, I think there'ssome caution here, but there's
got.
Surely there's a middle pathbetween you.
Know, interesting, in your workyou talked about the sort of
(11:28):
perception that you put forwardof yourself, the face that you
present.
Sarah Condie (11:33):
Yes.
Keith Condie (11:34):
And how perhaps some of those faces.
It doesn't help when you can'tbe real about what you're really
feeling and experiencing.
So so obviously, some level ofyou know we need, we need, we
need reality in our churches.
Sarah Condie (11:55):
And and also I'm just wondering too, like, okay,
so our church leadership arefeeling that, but who's
encouraging them and what is itthat they think they need to be
doing so that they don't reveala softer, more vulnerable side?
It's like what is it that'sdriving that, that they want to
feel like they're forming,achieving, like what are the,
(12:18):
what are their measures?
That might not be articulated,but they're in their head.
That's driving the well I needto be seen to be doing.
Okay, so that they're puttingon a mask.
Keith Condie (12:30):
Is it like Sarah is there?
Is there a sort of a culturethat's, you know, shaping,
shaping ministers and pastors,to be like that?
Sarah Condie (12:39):
Well, that's what I'm asking, Like I just wonder,
how do they start being likethat and feel like you know,
like I know a lot of ministersare like a lot of ministers are
high achieving, they work hard,they have high expectations of
(12:59):
themselves and but then you know, like they've got measures of I
want to be seen, that I've gota church that's growing, that
people are becoming Christian,and I think those kind of things
were very hard in the pandemic,so it was like, oh, that's kind
of been taken, but but you know, I, you know, I just wonder
(13:20):
what are the things that theyfeel like they need to be doing,
that they feel like maybethey're not doing and so they're
putting on a mask because Idon't know.
But I was also the other thingthat I was really interested in
with some of the things that youcame up with from the school
principals things about feedbackthat some of the ministers were
(13:43):
talking about, like the well,the threats and the bullying,
but also things like teasing andconflict and gossip and slander
.
And I just wonder, you know,when you get an email that's
really nasty, like that has animpact on you, and if all the
feedback, if a lot of thefeedback you get from your
(14:06):
congregation, and perhaps fromothers, is not encouraging.
That that would feed into youfeeling worse about yourself and
worse about your ministry.
Valerie Ling (14:20):
Yeah, it's almost like the mask is a reality, like
you have to put on the maskbecause if you're getting a lot
of this input from around you,it's death by a thousand paper
cuts, really.
Sarah Condie (14:31):
Well, I think that's and I think that's really
interesting and I think do we,like you know, and I think I'm
sitting in a congregation and Iyou know we are blessed by
wonderful church ministry staff,but I think how often do I take
the time to say thank you tothem?
And when they've preached, youknow to say thank you.
(14:53):
I really appreciate what yousaid and I just wonder if they
that that's not a culture thatwe, as Christians sitting in our
churches are good at either.
You know, like we're very goodat being critical and telling
people when we think theyhaven't done the right thing.
(15:15):
We do that extremely well.
Keith Condie (15:21):
Yeah, but do we do the other?
Do we encourage?
Valerie Ling (15:24):
And we've been encouraged to encourage, yes,
One of the things we hear a lotof is and it's related to this
is, I think, certainly what I'mexposed to, which is possibly
quite a heavy Sydney, sydney,evangelical flavor the threat of
reputation.
Reputation and what doesreputation mean?
(15:47):
I think sometimes you canlisten to that word and think,
oh, that means that you're on apower high.
But see, I'm a psychologist andI am a by reputation profession
.
My understanding of reputationis that there's a certain level
of trust that is given to apsychologist because of your
reputation.
In other words, you're goodstanding amongst the community,
(16:09):
not just clients, but yourcolleagues, right?
So it goes with if you have agood standing amongst your
colleagues, they will refer toyou, they will say this is
someone we trust and we believethat you will be safe and taken
care of.
Your good standing amongst thecommunity is that this is a
place you can go and you willnot be harmed, Right, and so
(16:34):
reputation for us is goodstanding, and I think that for
pastors that it has a similarflavor.
Do you think that there's?
Keith Condie (16:44):
a looking so definitely and this is we find
this in the New Testament.
You know you don't Elders needto be people of good repute and
that's exactly that.
It's that sense of this is atrustworthy person, you know,
and you don't want leadership inthe church.
(17:04):
That's not trustworthy.
So that reputational thing andyeah, I think it's very similar
to what you're saying about yourprofession, Valerie.
Valerie Ling (17:16):
And I think there's one more level and this
is something I think not verymany people in the public know
is that when pastors look atthat, it's also when I see my
maker.
What will he say?
Yes, not necessarily reputation, but that is also a
faithfulness and a stewardship.
You know how will I face him.
(17:37):
What will he say to me?
Keith Condie (17:41):
I've been interested with this, with this
is Christ church, isn't?
This is not the pastors church,it's Christ church that we've
been entrusted, people areentrusted with and yeah, yeah,
what will they say?
And so it goes.
Valerie Ling (17:57):
It's huge.
And so, sarah, when you weresaying so, when you're getting
all this feedback, that'snegative and can almost make you
feel like you're really doing alot of damage.
I think, it fits into that aswell.
So it's a real sense of shame,discouragement, uncertainty as
well.
Sarah Condie (18:18):
Well, yeah, and I think you know, I mean, I think
negativity and negative feedbacklike is like Velcro, we
remember that.
So we might have, we might have, you know, 10 positive comments
but one negative will justwrite those off, you know.
So we notice the negative andthey have much more of an impact
(18:43):
on us.
Yeah, just going back to whatyou're talking about, you know
like we want our churches to besafe places, where people are
safe and careful.
What are the?
What are the qualities thathelp that?
I think they're the softer, youknow, like the fritz of the
(19:06):
spirit.
You know like a place wherepeople are kind and gentle, they
listen and they'recompassionate, and I think it
goes back to that vulnerability.
I'm happy to sit with you andlisten and if you tell me you're
feeling awful, I will sit withyou and want to know how.
(19:31):
You know what that's like foryou and walk with you.
Valerie Ling (19:38):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
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You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:00):
So the transformational leaderis somebody who works through
team, essentially right.
So who is able to look at theground, look at the vision, work
through their team and actuallythen move them towards.
You know, from point A to pointB, the servant leader tends to
be somebody who is very much inthe middle of the process,
(20:25):
responding to needs.
It's not a bad style at all,but it is probably a style that
fits within a morecommunity-orientated type of
leadership where it's acooperative, all equally sharing
the load.
Everybody is, you know, doingit together as a community.
So my hypothesis is that whenyou've got churches that are
(20:48):
scaling and there's more,there's less of that we're doing
it together.
It's the 20% doing the 80% ofthe work.
The servant leader often takesthe responsibility back or, you
know, does a lot of theresponding.
That's my hypothesis.
Yeah, yeah, so it does comeback to that sort of sense of?
(21:10):
Is it also a case that,therefore, there's personality
there of feeling guilty orwanting to take back or, you
know, not knowing what to dowith all the needs that are
around and so responding to it?
Sarah Condie (21:26):
Yes, and you could just say how that can seem to
be, and that would just wearanyone out.
Yes, over time.
Valerie Ling (21:34):
Yeah, because there's never an end of need.
No.
Sarah Condie (21:37):
I think that's the thing, and I think that this is
the thing about life and youknow the Christian, like any
life is that unexpected thingshappen, and I think that's the
normal.
And I think often we'restructured well.
We organize our lives so muchso that everything is expected
(21:59):
or we want to have control overthings so that when the
unexpected thing does happen,there's no margin or space for
that to fit.
And I think that can just beenormously stressful because you
feel like you're investing allthis time into responding to the
thing that you didn't know wasgoing to happen and you think
(22:22):
about all the things that are onyour list that you're not going
to get done.
Yeah, and that's quitedepowering because you think, oh
well, you know, I didn't getanything done today.
Keith Condie (22:35):
And I'm telling you, Valerie, Sarah puts on her
to do list the unexpected.
Sarah Condie (22:40):
Yeah, and so it's there.
Yes, and I think it just givesyou a bit of language around.
Well, actually, what did I dotoday?
But I don't know that that'ssomething that a lot of people
do.
Valerie Ling (22:55):
Is to put is to create margin for the unexpected
.
Sarah Condie (22:58):
Well, yeah, or to expect the unexpected.
Like is that in our week, likeI think most people don't have
like where is the unexpectedthing in their diary?
Like it's not there?
Yeah, when it happens, but whenit it's okay if it happens once
in the week, but it's like Ithink in ministry, like you know
(23:21):
, when I worked at a church,like just about every week the
unexpected thing was what tookup time.
So you know consistently that'swhat happens.
Valerie Ling (23:31):
But what you were saying, sarah.
You know there's one of thepodcast episodes.
I interviewed three people fromthe missions community because
I think they do leadership in afascinating way.
You know both missions.
It's so messy, it's sounpredictable, and that's what
one of them said.
He said you know, in leadership, in mission, you must create
(23:52):
buffer because anything canhappen and it's like it's almost
it's your, it's yourresponsibility, like it's part
of the job description, that inall of your personal resourcing
and how you think you're goingto plan, you got to create a
large degree of margin.
Sarah Condie (24:11):
Well, I think that that's true of a lot of lives,
you know.
I mean, I think that that'svery and that's very insightful
of that person to have said that, but I do think that a lot of
us live like that.
Valerie Ling (24:30):
So this is the interesting thing about I think
has come out from so KirstyBucknell, who's also done some
work with CMD, her research ofabout reflection and insight in
ministers.
So one of the reasons why I putthe emotional awareness or the
emotional labor, if you like,questions was because we were
(24:52):
seeing it's added onto.
It's not only about reflectionand it's not only about insight
towards a resilient problemsolving.
It's the foundation thing ofactually having insight into
emotion.
The prompt to get you toreflect.
It's not the emotion.
You know you feel something andthen you go.
(25:15):
What is this?
What's going on here?
And so, if you don't know, ifyou're afraid of your emotions,
if you don't attend to it, it'soften not going to be the prompt
to get you to reflect.
And so one of the things that Ifound in the survey was that
(25:36):
burnout was related to lowerlevels of emotional labor and
therefore insight.
Keith Condie (25:43):
Which is fascinating.
I think that's reallyinteresting, yeah, which just
raises that whole question ofyou know, helping people grow in
self-awareness and in thatability to reflect, and just how
important and significant thatis, I think.
Sarah Condie (26:05):
Because you've got that but you can do that.
But there's also the systemiclike that you have no control
over, like there's like all ofus work within a system and if
the system has structures inplace that make it difficult for
us to change or respond becausewe are, you know, recognizing
(26:28):
that we're stressed and feelinglanguishing, that doesn't help
either.
It's almost like there needs tobe a meeting of that
self-reflection with somethingthat comes from down.
Keith Condie (26:43):
That was the other really interesting thing.
That sort of you know struck usabout your work, valerie.
It was just there's all thepersonal stuff that you can do,
but there's also this systemthat you are part of and, no
matter how, you know manywell-being practices you've
built into your life and youknow how self-aware you are and
(27:06):
how well you handle your ownemotional stuff.
There's these outside factorsand I think I think I really
appreciated the fact that you,you were very alert to that and
it's not just a case of you know, if someone's struggling, well,
there must be to do with theirown self-confidence.
Sarah Condie (27:30):
But there might be a big, bigger thing at play
here.
Keith Condie (27:33):
Yeah, so.
Valerie Ling (27:35):
Yeah, you're right , and this has been a great
conversation.
I think I'm growing in myinsight.
I've just been prompted tothink that I read somewhere that
in organizations so inworkplaces this is probably the
first time maybe in history thatwe actually have in workplaces
up to four to five generations.
So you know, boomers, builders,gen Xs, millennials, gen Zs you
(28:01):
know this is the first timewe've had that.
But this is probably also, likeyou was talking about systems
issues this is probably true ofthe church as well.
So I haven't talked about this.
But you know, the universitysaid I had to do a pilot, right?
So I actually piloted.
One of my first researchquestions was well, how do we
even define leadershipeffectiveness in a church?
(28:23):
So go and do a pilot.
So I actually piloted.
You know, I just put it onsocial media and I asked people
you know what age they were at?
Because there was a researchpaper I read to say that it's
very hard to define ministryeffectiveness because the
different generations havedifferent internal ideas of what
that is right.
So I put out this poll and thenasked you know people?
(28:46):
It was fascinating, okay, soyou had the sort of over 70s,
sort of the 70s and over campdefined ministry effectiveness
as pastoral visitation.
Keith Condie (29:01):
Okay, yes.
Valerie Ling (29:02):
And then you had another camp that defined it by
the events you know, like, oh,the Christmas tree is still up.
You know that's not effectiveleadership, you know.
Or you know the choir, you know.
So there was that camp.
And then you had the peoplewith kids.
So you sort of your 30s to 40sabout the ministry.
(29:23):
Effectiveness is a degree towhich we have programs for the
kids and the children isincorporated into the services.
And then you have the youngergeneration.
Now that was very revealing tome.
So what do you guys say?
Yeah, it's fascinating becausethese are your millennials into
Gen Z.
Now Our person needs to be outthere, aware of social issues,
(29:48):
aware of contemporary issues.
They shouldn't be locked up inchurch.
They should be engaging with usoutside in these issues.
Keith Condie (29:58):
Oh, that is fascinating.
Well, yeah, I know, but youjust think about that.
You think about now you're thepastor, and if you've heard that
and you've got all thosegenerations, just I mean the
level of expectation around thatis massive.
Sarah Condie (30:15):
That's big.
I hadn't really thought throughlike that way of looking at the
pressures or what clergy arefacing, like, yeah, that I think
that's really interesting yeah.
Valerie Ling (30:32):
And so it comes back to.
So the conflict that we'reseeing in church.
I'd be curious to hear what youhave to say, Cause one of the
things that I've been mullingaround in my head is churches to
me, almost has the expectationsthat we behave like family, but
we have to be run likeorganizations, and so the
(30:54):
conflict is really hard todefine.
Not is it interpersonalconflict that we're experiencing
, cause in family there's a lotof interpersonal conflict, or is
it kind of this sort of systemsconflict, organizational
conflict?
It's so messy I don't know whatto make of it.
Keith Condie (31:15):
Wow, yeah, I don't think I want to make it that
either, valerie, here.
But you're right, we used thelanguage of family and again,
there's very strong NewTestament language around that
the church's family, thehousehold of faith.
But and of course families dohave their conflicts, but I'm
(31:36):
not sure we do that terriblywell in our churches.
Valerie Ling (31:40):
Well, it makes a lot of sense because, you know,
we all bring how we do conflictin our families into a church
environment, but we all havedifferent families.
So, you know, in my psychologypractice I talk about this very
openly because I got into a lotof hot soup in my early years of
leading my team, because I usedto say to them I know that you
(32:01):
see me as a personal space, theway I relate with my children
and you know the way that Irelate, you know, with you in a
social space.
You know you see me as beingthis person who is like this,
with shoes off, self, if youlike, but I'm not always gonna
be like that in the professionalspace, you know, because we
(32:22):
have a different workingrelationship, you know.
But the same character that Idisplay in those personal
relationships are the ones youneed to call me out on.
So, you know, with my kids I amfair, I want to be fair, I want
to be kind, I want to be gentle, I want to be respectful, right
, and I give them pocket money.
Now, in the professional space,you need to be able to see me
(32:44):
as being that same person, fairand respectable and all of the
things, but I'm not always gonnagive you pocket money.
Yeah, give you what you want.
I kind of look at it and sayyou know how we make ministry?
Folk do these days more andmore work in the family systems.
Keith Condie (33:01):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (33:02):
I believe even at a congregation level it's worth
exploring that so that we're alittle bit more aware of what
we're bringing in, I don't know,is that unreasonable?
Keith Condie (33:12):
I don't think it's unreasonable.
Why, yeah, yeah, and that wholething about you know the
anxiety within the system andthe role of the leader as being
a non-anxious presence.
It's a powerful concept interms of, you know, enabling a
group of people to move forwardand you know, of course, in the
(33:36):
church that's seeking to move agroup of people forward in
maturity and Christ.
And, yeah, there's a lot ofskill and wisdom associated with
that, isn't there?
Valerie Ling (33:51):
Hmm.
Sarah Condie (33:53):
And I do think you know as much as we talk about
the different leadership modelsthat you're talking about.
I do think by our behaviour.
I think, going back to what youwere saying, I think well, a
leader models by what we see ofthem.
You know, like we do hear themspeak, but we watch them and I
think the way they live theirlife, you know like things that
(34:18):
they do.
Keith Condie (34:20):
We see that and and it shapes the community,
doesn't it?
It does, yeah, yeah.
And can I say, would Sarah saythat this reminds me too, the
whole thing about the modellingeffect of leaders who pastors
and ministers have seen and havelooked to as role models.
(34:43):
And I think for a lot of thosepeople, you know they're heroes
in the life of ministry.
You know they're the great oneswho have particular capacities
and abilities and gifts whichyou know not all of us have.
And then when we try and copythem, you can just see the
(35:07):
potential there for that toimpact and you know, trying to
do things that they're eithernot gifted for or they just
don't have the same capacity assome people do.
And yet you know they'resetting that person up as their
(35:28):
role model but it's sinking themby trying to be that person
when they're not that person.
Valerie Ling (35:35):
I'd love to know.
I think or to ask you from aresilience perspective.
To me it seems like such a hardthing to say.
You know, we want our ministryleaders to be resilient and I've
even heard in spaces with sortof people who have been in
ministry sort of a decade or twodecades ago, saying they just
(35:57):
don't make them like they usedto.
Keith Condie (35:59):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (36:00):
How do we respond to this?
Keith Condie (36:06):
I think we've got to be you know what.
I reckon resilience we can uselanguage around resilience in a
way that actually shames people.
It makes them feel like youknow if you're not bouncing back
what's wrong with you andputting all of the onus on you
know their responsibility.
(36:27):
It's a really fine line to walkhere, because, of course, we
can all do things.
We can all.
We all make choices, and we canmake choices that are actually
helpful for us and not sohelpful for us.
And we want to encourage wisdom, but at the same time, we don't
want we don't want to turn toothers, we don't want to.
(36:47):
You know, we don't want toshoot our wounded by saying, oh,
if you were tougher, you getthrough this.
Sarah Condie (36:54):
So I think that sorry, sarah we can say Sorry,
no, no, you keep going.
Keith Condie (36:59):
Yeah.
So I think there's that reality, but at the same time, there is
I raised this in a class theother day, and this is a class
with some people who have workedin schools and said someone
working in a school, they saidall of the teachers are saying
(37:19):
this is what parents are.
Now, you know, the way thatthey are trying to protect their
children is not helping thedevelopment of their resilience
muscle, and so, you know, arethere very strong cultural
factors and norms that are youknow we are now in a situation
(37:43):
where perhaps it is reducinglevels of resilience.
So I think we've got thatreality to deal with as well.
But the way we talk about itand the way we deal with it, I
just don't want to see peoplemore crushed Does that make
sense?
Valerie Ling (37:58):
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, Because it minimizes thepathway to why they are
struggling.
Sarah Condie (38:05):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (38:06):
But there has been a pathway actually for why
they're struggling.
Sarah Condie (38:10):
And I wonder too, whether we've equated the word
resilient with productive, sothat resilient if we're
productive, but what if youcan't be productive?
What if you have a?
Keith Condie (38:24):
A disability.
Sarah Condie (38:25):
A disability but actually you are doing really
well where you're at.
Like you like we're cut, likeyou know.
That person is saying it iswell with my soul and they are
content with their lot Like.
That to me is a picture of aresilient person, but we don't
(38:46):
see that, or we don't.
Keith Condie (38:48):
We don't frame it that way because their output is
not as high as perhaps otherpeople's.
Valerie Ling (38:54):
I think that's so insightful, that is so true.
I hear there are a lot in ourministry clients they feel
guilty when they don't have thecapacity, or they believe they
don't have capacity, to produce,because then they're wasting
people's money and they're notbeing faithful.
Sarah Condie (39:11):
And that must be so hard.
Like that's an awful place tosit, isn't it Very?
Keith Condie (39:16):
awful and I think there's theological realities
here.
I mean when the Apostles saysyou know, when I am weak then I
am strong, and you know thewhole two Corinthians 12 stuff
about the thawing in the flesh,and there's got to be something
(39:37):
going on there that we need topay attention to.
And it's not just you knowperhaps.
Perhaps there are times when aminister is their capacity is
down for whatever reason, but asthey live out the Christian
life before their flock in themidst of their incapacity,
(40:02):
that's actually bringing realbenefit to that community.
Sarah Condie (40:08):
And maturity and a depth in people's relationships
with God and the people at thechurch.
Keith Condie (40:16):
Other members of the body stepping up and I don't
know.
Valerie Ling (40:21):
Yeah, I'm really with you and my concern.
I started to speak about thethreat response which, in the
work that I did, I definedestructive leadership really at
the level of not narcissisticor abusive leadership, because I
think that's a very differentscenario, where someone
intentionally is in a positionof leadership to wield it for
(40:44):
their own power and for theirown purposes.
But I, you know, I've definedit really as a point where you
are actually using moreaggressive, more forceful, more
punitive practices, so blaming,getting angry, just saying, just
do it, you know, just that sortof a thing and that had a link
(41:05):
to burnout.
So I don't know which way itgoes, but there's something in
there.
The more under resourced youare, the more likely you're also
going to say that I've actuallyused some more aggressive or
more forceful leadership tactics.
Keith Condie (41:19):
Well, I just know what I'm like with my tanks
empty.
That's you know.
You just, you don't have.
Sarah Condie (41:25):
You just don't have the resources and you know
it doesn't.
Keith Condie (41:28):
it doesn't promote the display of the future, the
spirit doesn't.
Valerie Ling (41:33):
Yeah.
So, and I think to me it's a,it's a concerning dynamic that
we have in churches at themoment that we are having a lot
more of this sort of conflictthat is warlike and aggressive,
both ways, I have to say bothways, because leadership to team
and congregation and the otherway around, I don't know.
(41:56):
Yeah, it's very concerning.
Sarah Condie (41:59):
It is concerning and it's how you break some of
those cycles and turn it around.
Keith Condie (42:06):
Yeah, so again, we've got beautiful pictures in
the New Testament of of you know, I mean, I know some things do
fall apart and there'ssignificant splits, but but you
know we've got a model, we'vegot.
We've got we've got a pictureof how people beset with sin can
live together in harmony and,and you know the realities of
(42:31):
repentance and forgiveness and,and you know, working through
conflicts in a in a godly manner.
Yeah, we just don't always doit, do we?
Valerie Ling (42:43):
Unfortunately, perhaps there's also a fear that
how do we actually know anddefine when we've actually got
to call out narcissistic,abusive, abusive practices?
You know can't always beharmonious and not call it, we
do have to call it out, Call itout.
How do you know which is which,I suppose, and how do we figure
that out?
And I don't expect us to havethe answers.
(43:04):
I only just raise it as anawareness that it is.
It is.
It's quite complicated.
Keith Condie (43:10):
It is, isn't it.
Valerie Ling (43:11):
It is yeah Quite complicated.
Keith Condie (43:14):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (43:17):
Well, I will make a pitch to say that I think
that's where professionalsupervision comes in.
Sarah Condie (43:23):
Oh, I think you absolutely right, we are with
you.
Valerie Ling (43:29):
That's how psychologists are kept honest.
Well, somebody else you knowlooks into your practice and
says hmm, we both haveprofessional supervision and
have benefited from it immensely.
Keith Condie (43:42):
Yes, so yeah, we're with you.
Valerie Ling (43:48):
If you had one thing, just to wrap up one thing
if someone in ministry waslistening to us a pastor,
someone in church leadershipwhat would you like them to walk
away with from hearing us today?
Sarah Condie (44:05):
That God loves them and he loves them as much
as he did the day they weresaved, and that's not going to
change.
And really we play to anaudience of one and he looks at
us, he delights in us and hewants us to know that he's on,
he's on our side and it's, youknow, yeah, like he's our helper
(44:31):
and he's our rock and he's ourrefuge and he's with us.
And yeah, I think, when weremember that we are God's
precious, beloved children, thatyou know that shapes us.
I think I'll echo.
Keith Condie (44:52):
Sarah's comment and just I know we didn't talk
about this, but I just think, interms of being sustained in
ministry for the long haul, Ithink it's that it's that deep
trust in God's goodness towardsus that is a sustaining role
(45:13):
that I think sometimes wedownplay, we think it's got all
the other things, but that's thething, that's the things going
to get us through the nastyemails, the, you know, the
difficult conversations, theconflict, all of that sort of
stuff.
Valerie Ling (45:31):
And if there were members of a church who were
listening in to try to get someinsight as to how to care, in
love, for their ministry team?
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with?
Sarah Condie (45:43):
How can you encourage your staff, ministry
team and communicate that youlove them, yet you want what's
best and like?
How can you do that and prayfor them and yeah, and say thank
you.
Say thank you every week.
I think that would be a goodplace to start.
Keith Condie (46:05):
Yeah, honor them and when there is something that
needs to be raised, just tothink very carefully about how
that is done, yeah, and, and youknow, sometimes, sometimes
things do need to be said,conversations need to be had,
but there are ways to do thatwith gentleness, with kindness
(46:25):
with you know, out of a genuinelove and concern and and you
know, if we took to heartProverbs 15, one of harsh words
stirs up anger and a gentleanswer turns away.
Sarah Condie (46:40):
Turns away, roth.
I think we thought about thatbefore we either open our mouth
or craft anything that we'regoing to send to someone.
That might just be a good placeto start.
Valerie Ling (46:55):
Wow yeah, finally any wisdom at the denominational
level, or even the college andtraining levels, to support the
development and thesustainability of ministry.
Keith Condie (47:12):
I think you know that earlier conversation, when
we're in the conversation, whenwe were talking about you know
self awareness and beingreflective.
So I think and I think somesteps have been taken that
direction.
I think that's fantastic.
That's really important.
I suppose you know, at thesystemic level, that's really to
(47:33):
do with you know people in youknow higher positions of
responsibility to think throughwhat can be done.
But and I don't have anyanswers there, but I just think
we need to have it on the radar,be talking about it, be
thinking about it.
Valerie Ling (47:48):
Wonderful.
Well, Keith and Sarah, did youhave anything that you wanted to
say?
Sarah Condie (47:53):
to me.
Yeah, that's beyond my littlemind.
Valerie Ling (47:59):
Keith and Sarah, thank you so much for spending
time with me.
It's been such a joy.
Sarah Condie (48:05):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for your work andministry.
Keith Condie (48:09):
Yes.
Sarah Condie (48:10):
Yeah.
Keith Condie (48:11):
Keep up the great work, thank you.
Valerie Ling (48:15):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
Hey, it's Valerie Ling.
I'm a clinical psychologist andI'm your host for the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm looking forward tointerviewing an expert today to
take you through my findingsfrom my research where I asked
200 pastors down under how theywere doing.
Don't forget to subscribe, likeand share.
(00:26):
Buckle up, and here we go.
Hi everybody, welcome toanother episode of the clergy
well-being Down Under podcast.
I'm happy with me, keith andSarah Conde.
I'm really looking forward toour chat today, keith and Sarah.
Thank you, valerie.
Keith Condie (00:44):
Yeah, thanks, Valerie.
Thanks so much for having us.
Valerie Ling (00:47):
Now.
Do you know, Keith, that youare the reason why I do what I
do?
Do you have any memory of aconversation we had about a
decade ago?
Keith Condie (00:59):
I remember us having a conversation, but I
can't remember how it landed inthis particular space, so please
just remind me.
Valerie Ling (01:10):
Well, Keith, I was a solo clinical psychologist
practicing in Sydney not longafter coming back to Australia
from Singapore, where we had aministry season in Singapore,
and I fell into this thingcalled a psychologist.
Clients were looking forChristian psychologists and
(01:32):
particularly I got a lot ofclients who were working in
churches and at the time I saidto Josh, my husband, who was
trained at Moore College.
I said, Josh, what's going on?
Why all the pastors comingthrough?
And we talked about it and Isaid who do you reckon I should
go talk to?
And he said, oh, I reckon KeithConde.
And I don't know how we got incontact, but I did.
(01:59):
I think I emailed you and Iactually distinctly remember
what I said.
I said, Keith, I'm reallygrateful for all the business
that I'm getting from the church, but I'd rather be out of
business when it comes to thistopic.
What's going on?
And you graciously had coffeewith me and then you pointed me
in the direction of where Icould continue these
(02:19):
conversations and that's how itbegan, Keith.
Keith Condie (02:25):
I certainly remember you raising those
matters and I thought you knowwhat I thought at the time.
I thought this is so important.
I'm just not sure whether thepowers of be they have sort of
the energy to pursue this and todo something about it.
That was my real concern.
Valerie Ling (02:42):
Yeah, and by God's grace, you know, a decade later
, I think we are so much moreaware, so much more you know,
wanting to figure out how we can, you know, serve God's people
by serving the church and theirleaders.
So please, keith and Sarah,introduce what it is you are
(03:07):
currently doing.
I'd love to hear from you,maybe Sarah.
Sarah Condie (03:12):
So Keith and I together co-direct the Mental
Health and Pastoral CareInstitute, which is funded and
supported by the AnglicanDeaconess Ministries, and we've
been doing that for seven yearsand really we just want to
develop resources that churchescan use around the area of
(03:35):
mental health, wellbeing andrelationships, because we know
that churches are pretty busyand if we can provide resources
that churches can use, that willhelp.
Yeah, that's really where we'recoming from.
Keith Condie (03:52):
Recognising the stress that ministers are under
and anything we think that canjust resource them quite easily.
That's that's sort of whatwe're trying to do.
The Institute sounds prettyimpressive, but you know you're
looking at it.
Sarah Condie (04:05):
Yeah, it's not very big in like it's us.
Keith Condie (04:10):
Just you know two part-time workers.
Valerie Ling (04:13):
Well, I've heard of your work.
I've heard of how meaningful ithas been and how it has
resourced churches.
So you may feel small but Ithink you know your work has
really provided a lot of goodout there.
So you had a look at some of myfindings.
(04:33):
We might just have an openconversation.
I mean, what stood out for you?
What comes through to you whenyou, when you look at that?
Keith Condie (04:43):
I suppose the first really obvious thing,
Valerie, is that high figure ofburnout symptoms.
You know 30, 36% of the peopleyou surveyed, that's, you know,
that's a lot of people, that'snot a small figure.
So I mean, I know that's obvious, but just putting that on the
table, that there really is aconcern here which you know I
(05:05):
think we need to be alert to andyou know you draw out some of
the sort of implications thatthat flow out of this.
You know, are we going to haveall of these ministers leaving
and you know where are theshepherds for the flock?
So I think it's a major concernthat needs to be addressed.
Valerie Ling (05:27):
And you know my figure is probably even
conservative.
I think you know in the widerliterature you know, we might
actually be seeing that it goesmuch higher.
So I'd up to maybe 50% areunder resourced, heading towards
burnout of clergy.
And it's an interesting thingyou look at a number and you go,
oh yeah, but is that reallythat bad?
(05:49):
I mean, you know 55% are doingOK.
Is that really something for usto be concerned?
And why should we?
Sarah Condie (05:58):
But then you ask, ok, are they really doing OK, or
are they just lower down onthat?
This a sliding scale.
So then maybe they're not atthat burnout phase, but they're
perhaps don't have healthyhabits of how they live their
ministry life and perhaps downthe track they might end up in
(06:19):
that place, yes or yeah.
Like, yeah, I don't know.
Like that I think that's a goodquestion.
Like, can you go back and lookat that 65% and say, well, how
healthy are they?
Keith Condie (06:31):
Like yeah, even so , like this is more than a third
of our ministers and again, Ijust can't remember your exact
stat, I'm sure you've got thetop of your head, is it?
Oh, it's a 40% who haveconsidered serious thoughts of
leaving the ministry, was that?
In the past 12 months.
Valerie Ling (06:51):
Yeah, very close to that figure, yeah, yeah.
Keith Condie (06:55):
OK, so let's just seriously consider, and even if
a a proportion of them make thatdecision, we're losing our
pastures if that's the case.
Sarah Condie (07:09):
It's still a lot.
That's a lot of churches.
Valerie Ling (07:11):
Yes, yeah, you know some people have responded
to me and say, well, that's nottoo far from a general statistic
of the pandemic and I said,well, that is true, but look at
what's happening at schools.
I mean, this was part of mycuriosity when I did the survey.
Yes, you know, the researchcommunity is really responding
(07:31):
so strongly to what's happening,to school principles, you know,
and what's happening in theeducation sector.
We're losing teachers.
The teachers are seriously at.
Schools are really under threat.
It's a domino effect you loseyour leader.
Keith Condie (07:46):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (07:47):
The impact of the community and the morale of
staff.
And then staff leave and youdon't have a pipeline that
generates new principles.
Because in order to be a schoolprincipal you know you've got
to have like a lot of streetcred, leadership skill.
It's a very complicatedleadership position.
(08:07):
It's not that easy to fill.
So when you've got schools thenfacing this crisis and you say,
well, what's so bad about thatfor the church?
You know what's the correlateLike, what's the parallel for us
if we lose.
You know all of that wisdom,all of that leadership capital,
you know.
Keith Condie (08:28):
Yes.
Sarah Condie (08:29):
Well, it's sad and , you know, I just think of the
people in churches.
Like you know, it's verydiscouraging losing a leader,
like whenever you know there's.
I mean that, and if theirpastor is leaving for those
reasons, I think that's that hasa huge impact.
I mean it's the same, yeah.
(08:52):
So I think it's.
I think it's a significantthing to think about.
Valerie Ling (08:58):
Yeah, you know, in terms of the mental health
landscape in the church rightnow.
You know what does it mean fora church who have leaders who
aren't doing well and presumablythe church mental health scene
is also not one that's verystable at the moment, do you
think?
Do you know what I mean?
Keith Condie (09:19):
Yeah, we haven't got any sort of hard data on
that, but you know you just okay, you think about the impact of
COVID obviously pushed many,many people or most of us more
into the sort of the languishingtype mode that was.
You know, that was the word, andthat has an impact.
I think it's interesting,though, when you think about
(09:40):
leaders and the mental health ofthe congregation, there is
something actually helpful abouta little bit of vulnerability
from a leader around mentalhealth or these sorts of you
know, challenges anddifficulties can actually send a
helpful message to thecommunity about.
You know, we can talk aboutthis and we can support each
(10:06):
other in this.
Now, I'm not saying it's a goodthing that ministers have burnt
out, but perhaps for some,being more in touch with their
own vulnerabilities might leadthem to be a little bit more
open from the pulpit in theirprayers and the things that are
set up front in the church, andI think that's quite helpful for
(10:30):
a church culture, because we'veyou know we've talked to people
who have the sense of I don'tbelong in this church.
You know this is a church forbeautiful people and I'm not a
beautiful person.
I don't fit the perception of,you know the face that's
presented by most people.
Valerie Ling (10:49):
One of the most common questions we get in, you
know, ministry, with ourministry spaces, is is it okay
to be vulnerable?
How much can I share, how muchdon't I share?
You know, yes.
Keith Condie (11:05):
Because there is oversharing and in a way that
you know will actually underminepeople's confidence in a pastor
.
So, you know, I think there'ssome caution here, but there's
got.
Surely there's a middle pathbetween you.
Know, interesting, in your workyou talked about the sort of
(11:28):
perception that you put forwardof yourself, the face that you
present.
Sarah Condie (11:33):
Yes.
Keith Condie (11:34):
And how perhaps some of those faces.
It doesn't help when you can'tbe real about what you're really
feeling and experiencing.
So so obviously, some level ofyou know we need, we need, we
need reality in our churches.
Sarah Condie (11:55):
And and also I'm just wondering too, like, okay,
so our church leadership arefeeling that, but who's
encouraging them and what is itthat they think they need to be
doing so that they don't reveala softer, more vulnerable side?
It's like what is it that'sdriving that, that they want to
feel like they're forming,achieving, like what are the,
(12:18):
what are their measures?
That might not be articulated,but they're in their head.
That's driving the well I needto be seen to be doing.
Okay, so that they're puttingon a mask.
Keith Condie (12:30):
Is it like Sarah is there?
Is there a sort of a culturethat's, you know, shaping,
shaping ministers and pastors,to be like that?
Sarah Condie (12:39):
Well, that's what I'm asking, Like I just wonder,
how do they start being likethat and feel like you know,
like I know a lot of ministersare like a lot of ministers are
high achieving, they work hard,they have high expectations of
(12:59):
themselves and but then you know, like they've got measures of I
want to be seen, that I've gota church that's growing, that
people are becoming Christian,and I think those kind of things
were very hard in the pandemic,so it was like, oh, that's kind
of been taken, but but you know, I, you know, I just wonder
(13:20):
what are the things that theyfeel like they need to be doing,
that they feel like maybethey're not doing and so they're
putting on a mask because Idon't know.
But I was also the other thingthat I was really interested in
with some of the things that youcame up with from the school
principals things about feedbackthat some of the ministers were
(13:43):
talking about, like the well,the threats and the bullying,
but also things like teasing andconflict and gossip and slander
.
And I just wonder, you know,when you get an email that's
really nasty, like that has animpact on you, and if all the
feedback, if a lot of thefeedback you get from your
(14:06):
congregation, and perhaps fromothers, is not encouraging.
That that would feed into youfeeling worse about yourself and
worse about your ministry.
Valerie Ling (14:20):
Yeah, it's almost like the mask is a reality, like
you have to put on the maskbecause if you're getting a lot
of this input from around you,it's death by a thousand paper
cuts, really.
Sarah Condie (14:31):
Well, I think that's and I think that's really
interesting and I think do we,like you know, and I think I'm
sitting in a congregation and Iyou know we are blessed by
wonderful church ministry staff,but I think how often do I take
the time to say thank you tothem?
And when they've preached, youknow to say thank you.
(14:53):
I really appreciate what yousaid and I just wonder if they
that that's not a culture thatwe, as Christians sitting in our
churches are good at either.
You know, like we're very goodat being critical and telling
people when we think theyhaven't done the right thing.
(15:15):
We do that extremely well.
Keith Condie (15:21):
Yeah, but do we do the other?
Do we encourage?
Valerie Ling (15:24):
And we've been encouraged to encourage, yes,
One of the things we hear a lotof is and it's related to this
is, I think, certainly what I'mexposed to, which is possibly
quite a heavy Sydney, sydney,evangelical flavor the threat of
reputation.
Reputation and what doesreputation mean?
(15:47):
I think sometimes you canlisten to that word and think,
oh, that means that you're on apower high.
But see, I'm a psychologist andI am a by reputation profession
.
My understanding of reputationis that there's a certain level
of trust that is given to apsychologist because of your
reputation.
In other words, you're goodstanding amongst the community,
(16:09):
not just clients, but yourcolleagues, right?
So it goes with if you have agood standing amongst your
colleagues, they will refer toyou, they will say this is
someone we trust and we believethat you will be safe and taken
care of.
Your good standing amongst thecommunity is that this is a
place you can go and you willnot be harmed, Right, and so
(16:34):
reputation for us is goodstanding, and I think that for
pastors that it has a similarflavor.
Do you think that there's?
Keith Condie (16:44):
a looking so definitely and this is we find
this in the New Testament.
You know you don't Elders needto be people of good repute and
that's exactly that.
It's that sense of this is atrustworthy person, you know,
and you don't want leadership inthe church.
(17:04):
That's not trustworthy.
So that reputational thing andyeah, I think it's very similar
to what you're saying about yourprofession, Valerie.
Valerie Ling (17:16):
And I think there's one more level and this
is something I think not verymany people in the public know
is that when pastors look atthat, it's also when I see my
maker.
What will he say?
Yes, not necessarily reputation, but that is also a
faithfulness and a stewardship.
You know how will I face him.
(17:37):
What will he say to me?
Keith Condie (17:41):
I've been interested with this, with this
is Christ church, isn't?
This is not the pastors church,it's Christ church that we've
been entrusted, people areentrusted with and yeah, yeah,
what will they say?
And so it goes.
Valerie Ling (17:57):
It's huge.
And so, sarah, when you weresaying so, when you're getting
all this feedback, that'snegative and can almost make you
feel like you're really doing alot of damage.
I think, it fits into that aswell.
So it's a real sense of shame,discouragement, uncertainty as
well.
Sarah Condie (18:18):
Well, yeah, and I think you know, I mean, I think
negativity and negative feedbacklike is like Velcro, we
remember that.
So we might have, we might have, you know, 10 positive comments
but one negative will justwrite those off, you know.
So we notice the negative andthey have much more of an impact
(18:43):
on us.
Yeah, just going back to whatyou're talking about, you know
like we want our churches to besafe places, where people are
safe and careful.
What are the?
What are the qualities thathelp that?
I think they're the softer, youknow, like the fritz of the
(19:06):
spirit.
You know like a place wherepeople are kind and gentle, they
listen and they'recompassionate, and I think it
goes back to that vulnerability.
I'm happy to sit with you andlisten and if you tell me you're
feeling awful, I will sit withyou and want to know how.
(19:31):
You know what that's like foryou and walk with you.
Valerie Ling (19:38):
This is the midpoint break for the podcast.
If you want to put a pause andwalk away and come back with it,
make sure you do check out thedescription for all the various
downloads that we have for you,including my full report,
research and reflections.
You might also want to rememberto like, share and subscribe.
So stop now or keep going.
(20:00):
So the transformational leaderis somebody who works through
team, essentially right.
So who is able to look at theground, look at the vision, work
through their team and actuallythen move them towards.
You know, from point A to pointB, the servant leader tends to
be somebody who is very much inthe middle of the process,
(20:25):
responding to needs.
It's not a bad style at all,but it is probably a style that
fits within a morecommunity-orientated type of
leadership where it's acooperative, all equally sharing
the load.
Everybody is, you know, doingit together as a community.
So my hypothesis is that whenyou've got churches that are
(20:48):
scaling and there's more,there's less of that we're doing
it together.
It's the 20% doing the 80% ofthe work.
The servant leader often takesthe responsibility back or, you
know, does a lot of theresponding.
That's my hypothesis.
Yeah, yeah, so it does comeback to that sort of sense of?
(21:10):
Is it also a case that,therefore, there's personality
there of feeling guilty orwanting to take back or, you
know, not knowing what to dowith all the needs that are
around and so responding to it?
Sarah Condie (21:26):
Yes, and you could just say how that can seem to
be, and that would just wearanyone out.
Yes, over time.
Valerie Ling (21:34):
Yeah, because there's never an end of need.
No.
Sarah Condie (21:37):
I think that's the thing, and I think that this is
the thing about life and youknow the Christian, like any
life is that unexpected thingshappen, and I think that's the
normal.
And I think often we'restructured well.
We organize our lives so muchso that everything is expected
(21:59):
or we want to have control overthings so that when the
unexpected thing does happen,there's no margin or space for
that to fit.
And I think that can just beenormously stressful because you
feel like you're investing allthis time into responding to the
thing that you didn't know wasgoing to happen and you think
(22:22):
about all the things that are onyour list that you're not going
to get done.
Yeah, and that's quitedepowering because you think, oh
well, you know, I didn't getanything done today.
Keith Condie (22:35):
And I'm telling you, Valerie, Sarah puts on her
to do list the unexpected.
Sarah Condie (22:40):
Yeah, and so it's there.
Yes, and I think it just givesyou a bit of language around.
Well, actually, what did I dotoday?
But I don't know that that'ssomething that a lot of people
do.
Valerie Ling (22:55):
Is to put is to create margin for the unexpected
.
Sarah Condie (22:58):
Well, yeah, or to expect the unexpected.
Like is that in our week, likeI think most people don't have
like where is the unexpectedthing in their diary?
Like it's not there?
Yeah, when it happens, but whenit it's okay if it happens once
in the week, but it's like Ithink in ministry, like you know
(23:21):
, when I worked at a church,like just about every week the
unexpected thing was what tookup time.
So you know consistently that'swhat happens.
Valerie Ling (23:31):
But what you were saying, sarah.
You know there's one of thepodcast episodes.
I interviewed three people fromthe missions community because
I think they do leadership in afascinating way.
You know both missions.
It's so messy, it's sounpredictable, and that's what
one of them said.
He said you know, in leadership, in mission, you must create
(23:52):
buffer because anything canhappen and it's like it's almost
it's your, it's yourresponsibility, like it's part
of the job description, that inall of your personal resourcing
and how you think you're goingto plan, you got to create a
large degree of margin.
Sarah Condie (24:11):
Well, I think that that's true of a lot of lives,
you know.
I mean, I think that that'svery and that's very insightful
of that person to have said that, but I do think that a lot of
us live like that.
Valerie Ling (24:30):
So this is the interesting thing about I think
has come out from so KirstyBucknell, who's also done some
work with CMD, her research ofabout reflection and insight in
ministers.
So one of the reasons why I putthe emotional awareness or the
emotional labor, if you like,questions was because we were
(24:52):
seeing it's added onto.
It's not only about reflectionand it's not only about insight
towards a resilient problemsolving.
It's the foundation thing ofactually having insight into
emotion.
The prompt to get you toreflect.
It's not the emotion.
You know you feel something andthen you go.
(25:15):
What is this?
What's going on here?
And so, if you don't know, ifyou're afraid of your emotions,
if you don't attend to it, it'soften not going to be the prompt
to get you to reflect.
And so one of the things that Ifound in the survey was that
(25:36):
burnout was related to lowerlevels of emotional labor and
therefore insight.
Keith Condie (25:43):
Which is fascinating.
I think that's reallyinteresting, yeah, which just
raises that whole question ofyou know, helping people grow in
self-awareness and in thatability to reflect, and just how
important and significant thatis, I think.
Sarah Condie (26:05):
Because you've got that but you can do that.
But there's also the systemiclike that you have no control
over, like there's like all ofus work within a system and if
the system has structures inplace that make it difficult for
us to change or respond becausewe are, you know, recognizing
(26:28):
that we're stressed and feelinglanguishing, that doesn't help
either.
It's almost like there needs tobe a meeting of that
self-reflection with somethingthat comes from down.
Keith Condie (26:43):
That was the other really interesting thing.
That sort of you know struck usabout your work, valerie.
It was just there's all thepersonal stuff that you can do,
but there's also this systemthat you are part of and, no
matter how, you know manywell-being practices you've
built into your life and youknow how self-aware you are and
(27:06):
how well you handle your ownemotional stuff.
There's these outside factorsand I think I think I really
appreciated the fact that you,you were very alert to that and
it's not just a case of you know, if someone's struggling, well,
there must be to do with theirown self-confidence.
Sarah Condie (27:30):
But there might be a big, bigger thing at play
here.
Keith Condie (27:33):
Yeah, so.
Valerie Ling (27:35):
Yeah, you're right , and this has been a great
conversation.
I think I'm growing in myinsight.
I've just been prompted tothink that I read somewhere that
in organizations so inworkplaces this is probably the
first time maybe in history thatwe actually have in workplaces
up to four to five generations.
So you know, boomers, builders,gen Xs, millennials, gen Zs you
(28:01):
know this is the first timewe've had that.
But this is probably also, likeyou was talking about systems
issues this is probably true ofthe church as well.
So I haven't talked about this.
But you know, the universitysaid I had to do a pilot, right?
So I actually piloted.
One of my first researchquestions was well, how do we
even define leadershipeffectiveness in a church?
(28:23):
So go and do a pilot.
So I actually piloted.
You know, I just put it onsocial media and I asked people
you know what age they were at?
Because there was a researchpaper I read to say that it's
very hard to define ministryeffectiveness because the
different generations havedifferent internal ideas of what
that is right.
So I put out this poll and thenasked you know people?
(28:46):
It was fascinating, okay, soyou had the sort of over 70s,
sort of the 70s and over campdefined ministry effectiveness
as pastoral visitation.
Keith Condie (29:01):
Okay, yes.
Valerie Ling (29:02):
And then you had another camp that defined it by
the events you know, like, oh,the Christmas tree is still up.
You know that's not effectiveleadership, you know.
Or you know the choir, you know.
So there was that camp.
And then you had the peoplewith kids.
So you sort of your 30s to 40sabout the ministry.
(29:23):
Effectiveness is a degree towhich we have programs for the
kids and the children isincorporated into the services.
And then you have the youngergeneration.
Now that was very revealing tome.
So what do you guys say?
Yeah, it's fascinating becausethese are your millennials into
Gen Z.
Now Our person needs to be outthere, aware of social issues,
(29:48):
aware of contemporary issues.
They shouldn't be locked up inchurch.
They should be engaging with usoutside in these issues.
Keith Condie (29:58):
Oh, that is fascinating.
Well, yeah, I know, but youjust think about that.
You think about now you're thepastor, and if you've heard that
and you've got all thosegenerations, just I mean the
level of expectation around thatis massive.
Sarah Condie (30:15):
That's big.
I hadn't really thought throughlike that way of looking at the
pressures or what clergy arefacing, like, yeah, that I think
that's really interesting yeah.
Valerie Ling (30:32):
And so it comes back to.
So the conflict that we'reseeing in church.
I'd be curious to hear what youhave to say, Cause one of the
things that I've been mullingaround in my head is churches to
me, almost has the expectationsthat we behave like family, but
we have to be run likeorganizations, and so the
(30:54):
conflict is really hard todefine.
Not is it interpersonalconflict that we're experiencing
, cause in family there's a lotof interpersonal conflict, or is
it kind of this sort of systemsconflict, organizational
conflict?
It's so messy I don't know whatto make of it.
Keith Condie (31:15):
Wow, yeah, I don't think I want to make it that
either, valerie, here.
But you're right, we used thelanguage of family and again,
there's very strong NewTestament language around that
the church's family, thehousehold of faith.
But and of course families dohave their conflicts, but I'm
(31:36):
not sure we do that terriblywell in our churches.
Valerie Ling (31:40):
Well, it makes a lot of sense because, you know,
we all bring how we do conflictin our families into a church
environment, but we all havedifferent families.
So, you know, in my psychologypractice I talk about this very
openly because I got into a lotof hot soup in my early years of
leading my team, because I usedto say to them I know that you
(32:01):
see me as a personal space, theway I relate with my children
and you know the way that Irelate, you know, with you in a
social space.
You know you see me as beingthis person who is like this,
with shoes off, self, if youlike, but I'm not always gonna
be like that in the professionalspace, you know, because we
(32:22):
have a different workingrelationship, you know.
But the same character that Idisplay in those personal
relationships are the ones youneed to call me out on.
So, you know, with my kids I amfair, I want to be fair, I want
to be kind, I want to be gentle, I want to be respectful, right
, and I give them pocket money.
Now, in the professional space,you need to be able to see me
(32:44):
as being that same person, fairand respectable and all of the
things, but I'm not always gonnagive you pocket money.
Yeah, give you what you want.
I kind of look at it and sayyou know how we make ministry?
Folk do these days more andmore work in the family systems.
Keith Condie (33:01):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (33:02):
I believe even at a congregation level it's worth
exploring that so that we're alittle bit more aware of what
we're bringing in, I don't know,is that unreasonable?
Keith Condie (33:12):
I don't think it's unreasonable.
Why, yeah, yeah, and that wholething about you know the
anxiety within the system andthe role of the leader as being
a non-anxious presence.
It's a powerful concept interms of, you know, enabling a
group of people to move forwardand you know, of course, in the
(33:36):
church that's seeking to move agroup of people forward in
maturity and Christ.
And, yeah, there's a lot ofskill and wisdom associated with
that, isn't there?
Valerie Ling (33:51):
Hmm.
Sarah Condie (33:53):
And I do think you know as much as we talk about
the different leadership modelsthat you're talking about.
I do think by our behaviour.
I think, going back to what youwere saying, I think well, a
leader models by what we see ofthem.
You know, like we do hear themspeak, but we watch them and I
think the way they live theirlife, you know like things that
(34:18):
they do.
Keith Condie (34:20):
We see that and and it shapes the community,
doesn't it?
It does, yeah, yeah.
And can I say, would Sarah saythat this reminds me too, the
whole thing about the modellingeffect of leaders who pastors
and ministers have seen and havelooked to as role models.
(34:43):
And I think for a lot of thosepeople, you know they're heroes
in the life of ministry.
You know they're the great oneswho have particular capacities
and abilities and gifts whichyou know not all of us have.
And then when we try and copythem, you can just see the
(35:07):
potential there for that toimpact and you know, trying to
do things that they're eithernot gifted for or they just
don't have the same capacity assome people do.
And yet you know they'resetting that person up as their
(35:28):
role model but it's sinking themby trying to be that person
when they're not that person.
Valerie Ling (35:35):
I'd love to know.
I think or to ask you from aresilience perspective.
To me it seems like such a hardthing to say.
You know, we want our ministryleaders to be resilient and I've
even heard in spaces with sortof people who have been in
ministry sort of a decade or twodecades ago, saying they just
(35:57):
don't make them like they usedto.
Keith Condie (35:59):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (36:00):
How do we respond to this?
Keith Condie (36:06):
I think we've got to be you know what.
I reckon resilience we can uselanguage around resilience in a
way that actually shames people.
It makes them feel like youknow if you're not bouncing back
what's wrong with you andputting all of the onus on you
know their responsibility.
(36:27):
It's a really fine line to walkhere, because, of course, we
can all do things.
We can all.
We all make choices, and we canmake choices that are actually
helpful for us and not sohelpful for us.
And we want to encourage wisdom, but at the same time, we don't
want we don't want to turn toothers, we don't want to.
(36:47):
You know, we don't want toshoot our wounded by saying, oh,
if you were tougher, you getthrough this.
Sarah Condie (36:54):
So I think that sorry, sarah we can say Sorry,
no, no, you keep going.
Keith Condie (36:59):
Yeah.
So I think there's that reality, but at the same time, there is
I raised this in a class theother day, and this is a class
with some people who have workedin schools and said someone
working in a school, they saidall of the teachers are saying
(37:19):
this is what parents are.
Now, you know, the way thatthey are trying to protect their
children is not helping thedevelopment of their resilience
muscle, and so, you know, arethere very strong cultural
factors and norms that are youknow we are now in a situation
(37:43):
where perhaps it is reducinglevels of resilience.
So I think we've got thatreality to deal with as well.
But the way we talk about itand the way we deal with it, I
just don't want to see peoplemore crushed Does that make
sense?
Valerie Ling (37:58):
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, Because it minimizes thepathway to why they are
struggling.
Sarah Condie (38:05):
Yes.
Valerie Ling (38:06):
But there has been a pathway actually for why
they're struggling.
Sarah Condie (38:10):
And I wonder too, whether we've equated the word
resilient with productive, sothat resilient if we're
productive, but what if youcan't be productive?
What if you have a?
Keith Condie (38:24):
A disability.
Sarah Condie (38:25):
A disability but actually you are doing really
well where you're at.
Like you like we're cut, likeyou know.
That person is saying it iswell with my soul and they are
content with their lot Like.
That to me is a picture of aresilient person, but we don't
(38:46):
see that, or we don't.
Keith Condie (38:48):
We don't frame it that way because their output is
not as high as perhaps otherpeople's.
Valerie Ling (38:54):
I think that's so insightful, that is so true.
I hear there are a lot in ourministry clients they feel
guilty when they don't have thecapacity, or they believe they
don't have capacity, to produce,because then they're wasting
people's money and they're notbeing faithful.
Sarah Condie (39:11):
And that must be so hard.
Like that's an awful place tosit, isn't it Very?
Keith Condie (39:16):
awful and I think there's theological realities
here.
I mean when the Apostles saysyou know, when I am weak then I
am strong, and you know thewhole two Corinthians 12 stuff
about the thawing in the flesh,and there's got to be something
(39:37):
going on there that we need topay attention to.
And it's not just you knowperhaps.
Perhaps there are times when aminister is their capacity is
down for whatever reason, but asthey live out the Christian
life before their flock in themidst of their incapacity,
(40:02):
that's actually bringing realbenefit to that community.
Sarah Condie (40:08):
And maturity and a depth in people's relationships
with God and the people at thechurch.
Keith Condie (40:16):
Other members of the body stepping up and I don't
know.
Valerie Ling (40:21):
Yeah, I'm really with you and my concern.
I started to speak about thethreat response which, in the
work that I did, I definedestructive leadership really at
the level of not narcissisticor abusive leadership, because I
think that's a very differentscenario, where someone
intentionally is in a positionof leadership to wield it for
(40:44):
their own power and for theirown purposes.
But I, you know, I've definedit really as a point where you
are actually using moreaggressive, more forceful, more
punitive practices, so blaming,getting angry, just saying, just
do it, you know, just that sortof a thing and that had a link
(41:05):
to burnout.
So I don't know which way itgoes, but there's something in
there.
The more under resourced youare, the more likely you're also
going to say that I've actuallyused some more aggressive or
more forceful leadership tactics.
Keith Condie (41:19):
Well, I just know what I'm like with my tanks
empty.
That's you know.
You just, you don't have.
Sarah Condie (41:25):
You just don't have the resources and you know
it doesn't.
Keith Condie (41:28):
it doesn't promote the display of the future, the
spirit doesn't.
Valerie Ling (41:33):
Yeah.
So, and I think to me it's a,it's a concerning dynamic that
we have in churches at themoment that we are having a lot
more of this sort of conflictthat is warlike and aggressive,
both ways, I have to say bothways, because leadership to team
and congregation and the otherway around, I don't know.
(41:56):
Yeah, it's very concerning.
Sarah Condie (41:59):
It is concerning and it's how you break some of
those cycles and turn it around.
Keith Condie (42:06):
Yeah, so again, we've got beautiful pictures in
the New Testament of of you know, I mean, I know some things do
fall apart and there'ssignificant splits, but but you
know we've got a model, we'vegot.
We've got we've got a pictureof how people beset with sin can
live together in harmony and,and you know the realities of
(42:31):
repentance and forgiveness and,and you know, working through
conflicts in a in a godly manner.
Yeah, we just don't always doit, do we?
Valerie Ling (42:43):
Unfortunately, perhaps there's also a fear that
how do we actually know anddefine when we've actually got
to call out narcissistic,abusive, abusive practices?
You know can't always beharmonious and not call it, we
do have to call it out, Call itout.
How do you know which is which,I suppose, and how do we figure
that out?
And I don't expect us to havethe answers.
(43:04):
I only just raise it as anawareness that it is.
It is.
It's quite complicated.
Keith Condie (43:10):
It is, isn't it.
Valerie Ling (43:11):
It is yeah Quite complicated.
Keith Condie (43:14):
Yeah.
Valerie Ling (43:17):
Well, I will make a pitch to say that I think
that's where professionalsupervision comes in.
Sarah Condie (43:23):
Oh, I think you absolutely right, we are with
you.
Valerie Ling (43:29):
That's how psychologists are kept honest.
Well, somebody else you knowlooks into your practice and
says hmm, we both haveprofessional supervision and
have benefited from it immensely.
Keith Condie (43:42):
Yes, so yeah, we're with you.
Valerie Ling (43:48):
If you had one thing, just to wrap up one thing
if someone in ministry waslistening to us a pastor,
someone in church leadershipwhat would you like them to walk
away with from hearing us today?
Sarah Condie (44:05):
That God loves them and he loves them as much
as he did the day they weresaved, and that's not going to
change.
And really we play to anaudience of one and he looks at
us, he delights in us and hewants us to know that he's on,
he's on our side and it's, youknow, yeah, like he's our helper
(44:31):
and he's our rock and he's ourrefuge and he's with us.
And yeah, I think, when weremember that we are God's
precious, beloved children, thatyou know that shapes us.
I think I'll echo.
Keith Condie (44:52):
Sarah's comment and just I know we didn't talk
about this, but I just think, interms of being sustained in
ministry for the long haul, Ithink it's that it's that deep
trust in God's goodness towardsus that is a sustaining role
(45:13):
that I think sometimes wedownplay, we think it's got all
the other things, but that's thething, that's the things going
to get us through the nastyemails, the, you know, the
difficult conversations, theconflict, all of that sort of
stuff.
Valerie Ling (45:31):
And if there were members of a church who were
listening in to try to get someinsight as to how to care, in
love, for their ministry team?
What's one thing you'd likethem to walk away with?
Sarah Condie (45:43):
How can you encourage your staff, ministry
team and communicate that youlove them, yet you want what's
best and like?
How can you do that and prayfor them and yeah, and say thank
you.
Say thank you every week.
I think that would be a goodplace to start.
Keith Condie (46:05):
Yeah, honor them and when there is something that
needs to be raised, just tothink very carefully about how
that is done, yeah, and, and youknow, sometimes, sometimes
things do need to be said,conversations need to be had,
but there are ways to do thatwith gentleness, with kindness
(46:25):
with you know, out of a genuinelove and concern and and you
know, if we took to heartProverbs 15, one of harsh words
stirs up anger and a gentleanswer turns away.
Sarah Condie (46:40):
Turns away, roth.
I think we thought about thatbefore we either open our mouth
or craft anything that we'regoing to send to someone.
That might just be a good placeto start.
Valerie Ling (46:55):
Wow yeah, finally any wisdom at the denominational
level, or even the college andtraining levels, to support the
development and thesustainability of ministry.
Keith Condie (47:12):
I think you know that earlier conversation, when
we're in the conversation, whenwe were talking about you know
self awareness and beingreflective.
So I think and I think somesteps have been taken that
direction.
I think that's fantastic.
That's really important.
I suppose you know, at thesystemic level, that's really to
(47:33):
do with you know people in youknow higher positions of
responsibility to think throughwhat can be done.
But and I don't have anyanswers there, but I just think
we need to have it on the radar,be talking about it, be
thinking about it.
Valerie Ling (47:48):
Wonderful.
Well, Keith and Sarah, did youhave anything that you wanted to
say?
Sarah Condie (47:53):
to me.
Yeah, that's beyond my littlemind.
Valerie Ling (47:59):
Keith and Sarah, thank you so much for spending
time with me.
It's been such a joy.
Sarah Condie (48:05):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for your work andministry.
Keith Condie (48:09):
Yes.
Sarah Condie (48:10):
Yeah.
Keith Condie (48:11):
Keep up the great work, thank you.
Valerie Ling (48:15):
Thanks for listening to the podcast.
If you liked what you heard andyou think others should hear it
too, don't forget to like,share and subscribe.
Catch you later.
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