Episode Transcript
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Hello and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi-weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
people, their employers, and the allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
workplace.
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Today, I'm excited to welcome DrewMcCaskill, who's a LinkedIn career expert
and is a senior director of corporatecommunications at LinkedIn.
He's the author of a monthly LinkedInnewsletter called The Black Guy in
Marketing, where he offers careerresources for professionals of color,
women, and members of the LGBTQ pluscommunity.
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Before joining LinkedIn, he led diversityand inclusion strategy for the global
sales, marketing, and public affairsfunctions at Facebook, and led consumer
marketing and global communications atNielsen before that.
Andrew has given consumer and cult...
Hold on, let me start.
Let me pause.
Got too many, too many words.
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It's a long bio, I don't know if you needto read it all.
No, it's okay.
Andrew has given consumer and culturalanalysis in the New York Times, USA Today,
Forbes, Fortune, Sirius XM, BET, andAdweek.
Andrew's also an investor and cultureconsultant with two early stage tech
startups.
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Andrew, welcome to Clot for Good.
Hey, thanks so much for having me, David.
Yeah, I'm excited to have a conversationwith you today.
So let's jump right in.
Let's start by discussing identity andauthenticity, which I know is really
important to you, but tell us a little bitabout how you identify and maybe talk us
through your coming out journey in theworkplace.
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Sure.
My name is Andrew McCaskill, and Iidentify as a black gay man.
So my pronouns are he and him.
And, you know, for me, my journey to sortof understanding where to interject or to
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intersect my being out was really along-tailed journey.
I mean, it took a long time for me to becomfortable
an out proud gay executive.
I think there's a unique politic for beingblack, gay, and visible at work.
For me, I have always been confronted withthe fact that racism still exists in
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corporate America.
We like to dress it up in more palatableterms like bias, but racism exists.
And I had the luxury, and I do think of itas a luxury, I don't like to say privilege
per se, but the luxury ofhaving the option to choose when to come
out, right?
Because I do think that there's a modicumof privilege in being able to choose and
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decide when to come out because so many ofour LGBTQ plus siblings don't always have
the luxury of being able to decide forthemselves and having that power sort of
taken away from them.
I think for a lot of black queer folks,grow up in spaces where, you know, we may
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be, we may have to confront the fact thatwe risk discrimination for the color of
our skin, but also sometimes, you know,discrimination for being queer at the same
time, right?
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And so comfort for me has been the productof time and growing confident in the value
of my work.
I felt I had to prove myself inprofessional spaces before I had the
luxury of saying, oh, by the way, I'm gaytoo.
And so I think that is, I think thatthat's the case for a lot of us for
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different reasons.
I felt like I had to earn my spot orshowcase my value before.
I had the luxury of saying, oh, by theway, there's one more thing too, that you
should probably know.
And I mean, I'm a Gen Xer.
So I was, I wasn't a product of growingup, you know, thinking I'm going to be out
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and gay and proud all the time and, orthat I'm going to have, or, and that, that
is my right to be able to do that.
I grew up in a very different area.
I'm a, I'm a product of the seventies.
I'm 47 and I recently got married.
And my husband is a centimeter youngerthan I am.
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And he's from a different generation.
Even at the point where we were embarkingupon getting married, he had this idea
since he was a kid of what his weddingwould look like.
And I thought, wow, what a luxury to beable to think like that or think about
that.
Whereas I grew up in an era where thatwasn't even a thing or a possibility.
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right, even into my 20s, right, thatwasn't really a thing.
And so, um, my hope is that, you know, Imean, you know, I, I'm encouraged by all
the representation that we're beginning tohave, but we still need more, you know,
Yeah, for sure.
Well, and I like that reference todelivering the work.
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That's step one.
And certainly guests on the podcast havecertainly reiterated that.
And when then, Drew, when then did youmake that decision?
I feel comfortable.
I'm now ready.
Tell us about that.
Tell us how that went for you.
Okay.
So I'm going to tell you about, about it,how I had to stop it.
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I had a start when I get to pay, when itcomes to coming out.
I like the other new, new LinkedIn datasays that about 75% of queer people, queer
professionals have code switched in theworkplace.
And I was code switching quite a bit whenI was in my early part of my career, I was
senior vice president at a midsize PRfirm.
I grew up in an ad agency PR firm world.
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And, um, I had.
Um, I was the senior vice president.
I had a pretty big P and L, but my companyhad this amazing Christmas party.
It's where all of our, you know, ourpartners would come and it was this big
deal.
And I'd finally, you know, fallen in love.
I had been a very single gentleman.
Um, and, uh, I had finally fallen in loveand there's something about love that
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makes you brave.
Um, no matter who you are, um, there'ssomething about love that makes you brave.
And so I had this.
boyfriend and I was excited about him.
I was going to introduce him at theChristmas party.
I was so excited.
And right before I was going to come outat the Christmas party and bring him as a
date and that's going to be my thing.
And someone at work said something.
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I was putting a young guy up for promotionand someone at work said something.
They made a statement.
They said that he was light in the loafersand they didn't know how clients would
handle that.
I realized in that moment, I was like,Whoa, I'm having a conversation about
someone's career and their sexualorientation has now become a part of the
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conversation.
And I made the decision right then andthere that I would not come out.
I said, I'll never come out here.
And I worked there for another, you know,almost two years and I didn't come out
there.
And there were a handful of people whoknew or whatever.
But I said it my next job.
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David, I was like, my next gig, I'mcoming, I'm walking in the door, swiping
my badge, rainbow flag around my neck.
I'm Drew, I'm here and I'm queer, right?
And so I got in the process of, I'd beenrecruited by Weber Shandwin, which was
like number two PR firm in the world.
And I was in the process and I was saying,oh, well, maybe I, it's weird to come out
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now in the recruiting process.
That's-And then I was in the negotiation process
and I was like, well, I definitely don'twant to come out in negotiation process
because that could be even more odd.
And then we got to orientation after I gotthe job and I was like, okay, well, it's
kind of weird to say, hi, I'm Drew, I'mgay.
Right.
Um, and so what I realized for me is thatauthenticity matters.
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And for me, um, I was not authenticallythe person with the rainbow flag tied
around their neck, swiping my badge,walking through the door every day.
And I was authentic, who I wasauthentically as an out gay man was I was
the guy who put the picture of my partnerkissing me on the cheek on my credenza.
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This is back when you had an office and weare all working from home.
And I let and I sort of let it be and Ieased into it, David.
And that's what worked for me.
Right.
And I got a chance to like, when peopleasked me, I was like, oh, let me tell you
about him, you know?
And that was my way of just sort of likebeing, right?
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But what I learned from that is I learnedto give people a lot of grace.
Even I, as a person who was not out atwork, had a lot of prejudgments about what
you were supposed to do or what you weresupposed to look like as an out gay
professional, right?
right.
what I learned from that was I learned togive myself and other people grace around
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authenticity and figuring out what worksfor them.
And that's so important, right?
Um, when I look at our new data aroundLGBTQ plus folks, um, that feel like 71%
of the folks that we talked to said thatthey felt that they'd been passed over for
a promotion or a raise when they were notcode switching.
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And I remember.
Um, you know, I worked in a veryconservative industry in the, in the
beginning of my career and I was a seniorleader and I was in Boston, um, uh, for it
to see a client and my uncle who had beenan early executive at Polaroid, um, I
decided to, instead of going to a hoteland staying with my uncle and I was
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watching sports center and my uncle knowsme and he knows that I wasn't a big sports
guy and he said, why are you watchingthis?
And I said to him,quite honestly, I said, hey, I'm the big
black guy.
And all of my clients are 40, 50 year oldwhite guys, straight white guys who when
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they see the big black guy, they wannatalk to me about basketball and football.
They're not gonna talk to me about thefact that I just saw Wicked on Broadway.
They're not gonna talk to me about allthese other things that I'm really, really
interested in.
And I said, I want to not just survive atwork.
I wanna thrive at work becauserelationships matter.
And so I'm doing what I feel like I needto do, which is a form of code switching,
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right?
To be able to relate to my clients becausemy clients have to like me.
And my uncle who, you know, is an oldergeneration, he was like, kid, you're going
to make it.
That's the smartest shit I've heard allday.
He was like, that's exactly what youshould be doing.
Right.
So I tell my, you know, I tell mymillennial
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husband that exact same story, yearslater, and he says, oh babe, I'm so sorry
you had to go through that.
He says, oh babe, I'm so sorry you had togo through that.
Right?
And so generationally, I think that thereare some nuances to what we feel like was
necessary, but I always caution youngerqueer professionals to the fact that
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survive is one thing.
Thrive is another.
And there's a certain aspect ofrelationship building and code switching
that many of us will still have to dobecause your peer group is one thing, but
many of the decision makers in your careerright now are not your peer group.
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They grew up and grew up through the ranksof corporate America in a very different
way.
And so,And as much as I truly believe that there
are places where people can be theirauthentic selves and thrive, what I don't
wanna do is I never want to give youngpeople of color and young queer people
this horrible advice about bringing yourwhole self to work.
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That is such bad advice.
And I say that with caveats, right?
My company, does not need 3 a.m.
in Ibiza, Drew, at work every day.
It does not need bottomless mimosa Drew atwork every day.
It does not need Drew five minutes afterhe's watched the Rachel Maddow show at
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work every day, right?
Cause that Drew will not necessarily be onmission, right?
But I do think that the world of work doesneed our authenticity and needs the
benefit of our lived experience and for usto be able to come into our offices and
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share the perspectives that are unique tous because our differences can be our
superpowers.
They absolutely can.
But those differences as it relates tobeing authentic and being honest and being
transparent.
But I think that the onus is still oncompanies and corporations and
organizations.
and allies to create safe spaces forpeople to be authentic.
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And authenticity is not necessarily about,you know, about the clothes we put on our
back or about those sorts of things.
Authenticity is oftentimes most closelyrelated to our lived experience and what
we, and what our identity, how that nuanceof our identity shapes our.
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thinking and our strategy and our problemsolving, right?
Because that's what our companies needfrom us most.
Yeah, and a couple of things, Drew.
One, my first two managers in my careerwere from the same generation.
My first two managers talk about theextreme in code switching.
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I came out in my first job.
Oh, hang on.
It says we're trying to reconnect.
You're clear as a bell on my side.
So two of my first managers in my career,after I had come out in my first job, I
was out in the workplace, not advocating,not leading, but I was out.
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And my manager gave me two invitations totwo holiday parties.
This is in Atlanta in the early 90s.
And I said, you're having two parties?
I mean, is there one for work, one social?
And he said, one is my...
gay community and one is my straightcommunity.
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I think that's to your point aboutgenerations and where we are and I think
that's surprising.
Then my next boss and my next position, heretired and had never come out.
After he retired, I find out he's beenwith his partner for 35 years.
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His partner is a very successful marketeras well.
And so it's not that long ago, I guess, iswhat I'm saying.
And a guest in one of the earlier episodessaid, you know, as gay people, we've
become experts in reading rooms.
We've become experts in trying to figureout how can we fit in and what and where
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are we going to share and when.
You know, and I think, you know, as yousaid, finding those safe spaces, you know,
some of your data, you know, two in threeLGBT identified folks believe
hiding their identity helps them.
So even though generationally we may havemade progress, it's still the numbers are
staggering in the fear and the doubt, andwill this affect my career, my
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promotability, et cetera.
What, as you started to talk about safespaces and otherwise, what advice might
you give, or even what tools and resourcesmight exist through LinkedIn and your
network, what advice might you give sortof a younger queer professional?
someone who may not be younger, butthey're, they're starting to say, you
know, I've had enough.
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I want to start to becoming more authenticand showing up more authentically at work.
What advice might you give folks that arecontemplating that?
Yeah, such a good question.
I mean, I honestly think that, you know,the first thing is, I say this to any
professional, but particular professionalsfrom underrepresented groups is that
you've got to build a professionalcommunity.
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I call mine my personal board ofdirectors, but then also a community
outside of that.
And you need people from really diversebackgrounds as your advisors and part of
your professional community.
because you need people who are rootingfor you to win.
And oftentimes the people that you have inyour professional network are people that
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you can learn certain things from.
So my partner and I are thinking aboutfamily planning right now.
So there's, you know, there are more dads,particularly gay dads in my professional
circle.
And I've been really intentional aboutthat because I want to show up as a great
partner and I'm still gonna have a goodjob, you know, so that I can pay for all
of this stuff, right?
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And I want to have a great career and Iwant to be a great father and I want to be
a great partner.
I think that building your network andleaning into your network, you've got to
find your people.
You find your flock, right?
Is what I always say.
And having people around you to askquestions, to support, to rehearse it with
you if you want, if you think I'm thinkingabout coming out and people to lean on if
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it goes well and if it does not go well.
So I think that that's one of the things.
I think you've got to be really secure inwho you are as a professional.
before you make that decision, reallysecure and understanding who your allies
are today and who, you know, and how youbuild community after you decide to come
out, right?
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I don't think that you should wait untilthe day you come out to start engaging
queer professionals at work, right?
I think that there's a bit of strategythat even comes along with deciding when
to come out because the reality is formost of us is that
coming out as a journey and not adestination.
It's a unique experience for every singleperson.
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And I feel like I've come out many timesin my career.
But so the number one thing is that you'vegot to find your flock, build a network of
people who will be supportive of you andsupportive of you in how you decide to do
it.
And at what rate you decide to come out,right?
The other thing I would say is once you docome out, if there are communities already
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built in at your office, like employeeresource groups, I would say, find your
flock at work as well in terms of employeeresource groups.
The other thing I think is reallyimportant is you've gotta figure out how
you'll respond and react to the questionsthat you get, right?
Because you will get some questions.
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That's great advice.
Yeah.
start to think through that, right?
So that you're not caught off guard or youdon't answer emotionally, right?
Oftentimes, because it's still work.
And so I think that the thinking throughwhat your coming out plan is, I think is
really, really helpful and being able tohave support at work and it's support at
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home.
But for folks who are thinking, hey, I'm agay person and I really wanna find
I want to be able to figure out how tolook for better, you know, for better
environments, right?
I think that there's a lot of things thatyou again, tapping into your network,
other queer people will give you the realdeal facts on what it's like to be queer
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at certain companies.
Um, I think you can, if you're, if you'reon LinkedIn, following other queer voices
on LinkedIn, we have LinkedIn top voices,um, of LGBTQ plus professionals and
executives.
I think looking into professionalorganizations like Out and Equal or some
of the many organizations for LGBTQ plusprofessionals.
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I think about the things that I learned atLesbians Who Tech last year.
I'm not a lesbian, but I'm in tech and Ilearned so much there.
And figuring out how like out leadershipsome of these organizations that really do
have some great examples and blueprintsfor how to navigate your career as a queer
professional.
The other thing I think too is likefinding like tools, like if, if inclusion
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is a, is a core value of yours and you'rein the job search, I mean, there are
things like our values filter on LinkedIn.
If you're searching for a job, you can.
I'm going to turn off my outlook.
I'm sorry.
Sorry about that.
I'm just going to say that last partagain.
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Even though it was a long-winded answer, Iprobably should.
No.
There's also, if you're looking for a job,there's also the LinkedIn values feature
that allows you to literally search for ajob.
And it'll only show you jobs fromcompanies that
have core values that you've outlinedthrough the filter, like inclusion, like
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financial benefits, like family planningbenefits and things like that.
And you've got to know your why.
Why now?
Why do you want to come out?
What's your rationale?
Because once you identify what your whyis, it makes so many of the other
decisions that you make about coming outeasier to make.
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And it makes so many of the responses andreactions that you get after coming out
easier to take when you can go back toyour why for me, my coming out was about I
was in love and I was, and I didn't wantto have to hide that thing.
And I also didn't want to go into my newjob and my new environment with this thing
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that I was waiting for the other shoe todrop on, right?
Right, right.
no longer felt like being a gay man wasgoing to be a deterrent in my career.
And so some of the things that I think aresome of the reasons why people say that
they don't want to come out at work.
Some of us are internalized, right?
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Some of it is absolutely the environment.
We know that all of the legislation that'sout there now that's anti LGBTQ plus
legislation, there's a ton of rhetoric outthere that is that is anti LGBTQ plus.
But sometimes we've internalized thesebarriers to our being out and being able
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to thrive at work.
And then for me, I'd had a mindset shiftaround it.
I was at the point where I felt like I amconfident in my skills, I am confident in
my experience, I am confident in myresume, and I am confident in my ability
to find great work, do great work, andthrive.
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no matter what my identity is.
And I don't want to hide.
And that was the biggest determiningfactor for me.
I knew what my why was.
My why was I just didn't wanna hideanymore.
Yeah.
Well, and Drew, you know, clearly youdecided to do that.
You haven't looked back.
You you know what?
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You started out in roles that maybe didn'thave specific D and I responsibility and
over your career, you've assumed and ledand do today really impact organizations,
your own and others through the work youdo.
Tell us a little bit about once you onceyou once you figured out that, why you
came out.
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How did that?
change your career trajectory?
How do you think that impacted whereyou've now sort of landed today?
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like I cameup when I came out, right?
Um, I, I looked at my, the things thatmade me different as assets.
And I knew that it could help me solveproblems differently.
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I was a, my voice was a differentiatedvoice in the room.
And once I achieved some modicum ofsuccess at work, um, I felt like, how can
I start to sort of use the fact that I ama trusted advisor?
Um, to not only help people in general,but like to help people who, um, identify
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in the same way that I identify.
And I also found opportunities to, toconnect my, um, my experience and my
understanding of the queer experience tobusiness, um, outcomes.
When I was at Nielsen, I was a part of theteam that, that helped.
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to add, Nielsen does television ratingsand they operate in 106 countries around
the world.
One of the major things that we weretrying to do was to figure out how to
better measure viewership for LGBTQ plusprofessionals.
And I grew up in Mississippi on a dirtroad, right?
And so part of the, you know, I was on theteam that said, how do we get to a place
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where we can actually measure LGBTQ plusviewership?
How do we get that data?
And we worked really, really closely withqueer advocacy groups.
And, you know, part of my perspective wasit's very easy for us to walk up to, you
know, a brownstone in Brooklyn or anapartment in San Francisco or, or Los
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Angeles and ask people their identity andto, and to self-disclose what their sexual
orientation is, um, or what their genderjourney is.
That is not as easy in Hattiesburg,Mississippi.
That is not as easy in Jacksonville,Florida.
You know what I mean?
That is not as easy in Aiken, SouthCarolina.
And what we had to do, and it took us twoyears to do it, but we got to, I was a
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part of the team that brought LGBTQ plusmeasurement to television ratings.
And we did it by being empathetic.
We did it by.
being really realistic about the fact thatthe lived experience of queer people is
different from the lived experience ofheterosexual people and we did not shy
away from it.
And we had queer people in leadershipthere, but we were also smart enough to
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know that we couldn't go at it alone.
And once I saw that, I was like, oh,there's so many other things that we
could, you know, that I could do as aleader.
I was the executive sponsor, the globalexecutive sponsor for our pride group
there for five years.
We did so many amazing things, likeeverything from making sure that PrEP was
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covered in our insurance, but not onlyPrEP, but making sure that the testing for
PrEP was covered, even if you were notalready HIV positive, but just if you were
on PrEP and as a prophylactic, right?
So many things that we did for employeesto help them be able to thrive, not just
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survive at work, but thrive.
Um, that I was really, really proud of.
Right.
And so, um, there are a lot of thingsthat, you know, that we saw, I let our
work to own, um, just how we engaged, um,communities of underrepresented groups
and, you know, I became a leader in thatwork and, um, I think that part of what
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was beautiful about being able to.
do an amazing job as a marketer, right?
Because I had responsibility for USconsumer marketing.
And then I said, part of what we needed todo as a hundred plus year old company was
we needed to sort of reintroduce ourselvesto younger consumers.
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What I always sort of leaned into was Ileaned into the data and I knew that, you
know, 48% of millennials were people ofcolor.
AndSo we had to speak to them with
specificity and authenticity.
And so once we started to do that, we alsostarted to look at the data and that more
people were coming out, more people werebeing more comfortable, um, with their
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LGBTQ plus identity.
And we wanted to make sure that we werespeaking to these consumers with
specificity.
And that was part of my job.
And the biggest thing that was, that gaveme a lot of excitement was that our
clients started to say, Hey, y'all do thisreally well.
Can you like give me an idea of like howwe should approach?
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And one of the first things that I said tothem when we were talking about LGBTQ plus
consumers, I was like, you do realize thatgay people are gay all year long and not
just in June, right?
And I was like, you can't just do yourwhole gay push in June, right?
And Pride is not about, you know,rainbow balloons and feather boas on
(29:47):
floats, right?
That it's always been a protest.
I mean, celebrate pride by, you know,taking a stand and, you know, instead of
spending $20,000 on a float and a parade,maybe make sure that your insurance covers
prep and all of the clinical testing forit.
Like, tell a great story of what you'vedone all year round for, you know, for
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these underrepresented groups and notjust, you know, on hallways for 30 days.
And that's true forHispanic heritage month that's true for
black history month, right?
right.
Well, I mean, the work at Nielsen soundsamazing.
And the work that you're doing now,obviously, I think for folks to visit
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LinkedIn and look at those top voices, Ijust learned today about this values
opportunity.
I think that's amazing.
Because I think part of this process innavigating your career, as someone who
again has been in the workplace for awhile is it's eventually,
To be honest, from my perspective, it'syou realize what you don't want.
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So whether it was that situation you foundyourself in with a manager questioning one
of your employees and talking about theiridentity, but the experience that you
accumulate, you figure out really what youdon't want, which allows you to get to
your why as you say it.
I think it's really, and I think some ofthese tools can really help get you there
sooner, because you've got accessibilityto those.
(31:15):
Well, Drew, one last question.
People love to know the...
the answer to this.
People love to see what my guests sayabout this.
But clearly, people are going to take awaya lot of really great insights from our
conversation.
But I'd love to ask you, if you were tohost a Clout for Good dinner party, you
were going to honor, you were going toinvite folks that either just, they
(31:37):
inspire you, maybe they've mentored you.
Who are some folks you might invite fromthe queer community, either living or not?
Who are some folks you might invite?
And why?
Why would you want them at your Cloud forGood dinner party?
Yeah, I love this.
I love this question.
I think the first one that I would invitehas to be James Baldwin.
(32:01):
James Baldwin's writings really shaped mythinking when I was a college student.
And one of the things that Baldwin saysreally has sort of shaped just how I think
about my career too.
And I always tell young people thatwhether you're coming out or
(32:22):
whether you're taking a stand at work,lead with great results, but be
authentically you, especially when it'suncomfortable, right?
Discomfort at work is oftentimes a gift,and discomfort will drive you to find
places where you can thrive as your truestself.
And James Baldwin said something, he said,"'You have to go the way your blood
(32:45):
boils.'" And I think that that's wherethat's been the biggest shift in my career
is I've always been a marketer.
I've always been a communications leader.
Now I have married my purpose and mymission with the work that I do in helping
people better navigate the world of work.
(33:07):
And that is where my blood boils, right?
And so I think that that's one.
The other person that I would add to thatis a friend and an author, a guy named
Clay Kane.
He's the host of the Clay Kane show onSiriusXM, and he is an author.
(33:28):
He's interviewed some of the most iconicblack artists, as well as folks in the
political sphere.
He is a out-proud gay man who has recentlywon awards for a series that he's done on
his show.
where he speaks to people who have beenexonerated by DNA evidence now that the
(33:54):
DNA evidence has gotten better.
And Clay is a journalist and he's funnyand he does great karaoke.
I would add Clay to that.
I would definitely add Clay to that list.
And then the final one and someone elsewho I just am marvel at is Bayard Rustin.
(34:15):
And he was one of the architects ofMartin Luther King's March on Washington.
He was an unsung hero for many, manyyears.
Most people who covered, who have writtenextensively about the civil rights
movement did not understand that BayardRustin was this black gay man who really
was the architect of the March onWashington.
He, when I say architect from beginning toend, like he advocated for it, he wrangled
(34:39):
all the right people, he convinced MartinLuther King to do it.
And Coleman Domingo.
who is also somebody I love, had a dinnerparty just because he's a marvelous to
look at.
And he's an amazing, he's an amazingactor.
Um, played Rustin in the new movie onNetflix, um, that the Obama's produced.
(35:00):
And, um, Bayard Rustin was just, I wouldlove to hear the stories that, um, should
have been in the epic autobiography that Iwish someone had written or biography that
someone had written about his life in thein the struggle, his friendship with Dr.
King, as well as his very interestingpersonal life, because there's some
(35:24):
interesting things about his personal lifethat I think would just be delicious to
hear about.
Well, that sounds like an amazing party.
I, you know, I don't know Clay and we'llcertainly listen to his show and learn
more.
But, you know, Coleman Domingo, obviouslyoutstanding performance.
I know that he won the BET outstandingactor award for both that and Color Purple
(35:48):
this year, which was pretty fantastic.
And, you know, it's pretty amazing as youwatch Rustin.
It's a story that's just being told now.
It'sIt's amazing that story has been sort of
hidden or just untold for so long.
But, you know, and James Baldwin, ofcourse, having such an impact on so many
(36:10):
of us that have all read his work andlearned a lot about him.
So I love it.
Well, Drew, thank you so much.
Listen, thank you for what you do.
Thanks for being on the show.
as well.
It was great.
It was really, really insightful.
And I know the listeners are going to geta lot out of your out of your stories and
also your recommendations.
So thanks for joining.
Oh, thanks for having me.
(36:30):
This is great.
Yeah, thank you.
And to all of my listeners, thanks so muchfor joining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Clout for Good.
Follow us on social, visitcloutforgood.com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour clout for good to make a difference
in your workplace.
Hello and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi-weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
people, their employers, and the allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
workplace.
(00:25):
Today, I'm excited to welcome DrewMcCaskill, who's a LinkedIn career expert
and is a senior director of corporatecommunications at LinkedIn.
He's the author of a monthly LinkedInnewsletter called The Black Guy in
Marketing, where he offers careerresources for professionals of color,
women, and members of the LGBTQ pluscommunity.
(00:45):
Before joining LinkedIn, he led diversityand inclusion strategy for the global
sales, marketing, and public affairsfunctions at Facebook, and led consumer
marketing and global communications atNielsen before that.
Andrew has given consumer and cult...
Hold on, let me start.
Let me pause.
Got too many, too many words.
(01:07):
It's a long bio, I don't know if you needto read it all.
No, it's okay.
Andrew has given consumer and culturalanalysis in the New York Times, USA Today,
Forbes, Fortune, Sirius XM, BET, andAdweek.
Andrew's also an investor and cultureconsultant with two early stage tech
startups.
(01:27):
Andrew, welcome to Clot for Good.
Hey, thanks so much for having me, David.
Yeah, I'm excited to have a conversationwith you today.
So let's jump right in.
Let's start by discussing identity andauthenticity, which I know is really
important to you, but tell us a little bitabout how you identify and maybe talk us
through your coming out journey in theworkplace.
(01:49):
Sure.
My name is Andrew McCaskill, and Iidentify as a black gay man.
So my pronouns are he and him.
And, you know, for me, my journey to sortof understanding where to interject or to
(02:11):
intersect my being out was really along-tailed journey.
I mean, it took a long time for me to becomfortable
an out proud gay executive.
I think there's a unique politic for beingblack, gay, and visible at work.
For me, I have always been confronted withthe fact that racism still exists in
(02:32):
corporate America.
We like to dress it up in more palatableterms like bias, but racism exists.
And I had the luxury, and I do think of itas a luxury, I don't like to say privilege
per se, but the luxury ofhaving the option to choose when to come
out, right?
Because I do think that there's a modicumof privilege in being able to choose and
(02:56):
decide when to come out because so many ofour LGBTQ plus siblings don't always have
the luxury of being able to decide forthemselves and having that power sort of
taken away from them.
I think for a lot of black queer folks,grow up in spaces where, you know, we may
(03:16):
be, we may have to confront the fact thatwe risk discrimination for the color of
our skin, but also sometimes, you know,discrimination for being queer at the same
time, right?
(03:37):
And so comfort for me has been the productof time and growing confident in the value
of my work.
I felt I had to prove myself inprofessional spaces before I had the
luxury of saying, oh, by the way, I'm gaytoo.
And so I think that is, I think thatthat's the case for a lot of us for
(04:02):
different reasons.
I felt like I had to earn my spot orshowcase my value before.
I had the luxury of saying, oh, by theway, there's one more thing too, that you
should probably know.
And I mean, I'm a Gen Xer.
So I was, I wasn't a product of growingup, you know, thinking I'm going to be out
(04:26):
and gay and proud all the time and, orthat I'm going to have, or, and that, that
is my right to be able to do that.
I grew up in a very different area.
I'm a, I'm a product of the seventies.
I'm 47 and I recently got married.
And my husband is a centimeter youngerthan I am.
(04:47):
And he's from a different generation.
Even at the point where we were embarkingupon getting married, he had this idea
since he was a kid of what his weddingwould look like.
And I thought, wow, what a luxury to beable to think like that or think about
that.
Whereas I grew up in an era where thatwasn't even a thing or a possibility.
(05:09):
right, even into my 20s, right, thatwasn't really a thing.
And so, um, my hope is that, you know, Imean, you know, I, I'm encouraged by all
the representation that we're beginning tohave, but we still need more, you know,
Yeah, for sure.
Well, and I like that reference todelivering the work.
(05:31):
That's step one.
And certainly guests on the podcast havecertainly reiterated that.
And when then, Drew, when then did youmake that decision?
I feel comfortable.
I'm now ready.
Tell us about that.
Tell us how that went for you.
Okay.
So I'm going to tell you about, about it,how I had to stop it.
(05:52):
I had a start when I get to pay, when itcomes to coming out.
I like the other new, new LinkedIn datasays that about 75% of queer people, queer
professionals have code switched in theworkplace.
And I was code switching quite a bit whenI was in my early part of my career, I was
senior vice president at a midsize PRfirm.
I grew up in an ad agency PR firm world.
(06:14):
And, um, I had.
Um, I was the senior vice president.
I had a pretty big P and L, but my companyhad this amazing Christmas party.
It's where all of our, you know, ourpartners would come and it was this big
deal.
And I'd finally, you know, fallen in love.
I had been a very single gentleman.
Um, and, uh, I had finally fallen in loveand there's something about love that
(06:38):
makes you brave.
Um, no matter who you are, um, there'ssomething about love that makes you brave.
And so I had this.
boyfriend and I was excited about him.
I was going to introduce him at theChristmas party.
I was so excited.
And right before I was going to come outat the Christmas party and bring him as a
date and that's going to be my thing.
And someone at work said something.
(07:00):
I was putting a young guy up for promotionand someone at work said something.
They made a statement.
They said that he was light in the loafersand they didn't know how clients would
handle that.
I realized in that moment, I was like,Whoa, I'm having a conversation about
someone's career and their sexualorientation has now become a part of the
(07:21):
conversation.
And I made the decision right then andthere that I would not come out.
I said, I'll never come out here.
And I worked there for another, you know,almost two years and I didn't come out
there.
And there were a handful of people whoknew or whatever.
But I said it my next job.
(07:41):
David, I was like, my next gig, I'mcoming, I'm walking in the door, swiping
my badge, rainbow flag around my neck.
I'm Drew, I'm here and I'm queer, right?
And so I got in the process of, I'd beenrecruited by Weber Shandwin, which was
like number two PR firm in the world.
And I was in the process and I was saying,oh, well, maybe I, it's weird to come out
(08:06):
now in the recruiting process.
That's-And then I was in the negotiation process
and I was like, well, I definitely don'twant to come out in negotiation process
because that could be even more odd.
And then we got to orientation after I gotthe job and I was like, okay, well, it's
kind of weird to say, hi, I'm Drew, I'mgay.
Right.
Um, and so what I realized for me is thatauthenticity matters.
(08:27):
And for me, um, I was not authenticallythe person with the rainbow flag tied
around their neck, swiping my badge,walking through the door every day.
And I was authentic, who I wasauthentically as an out gay man was I was
the guy who put the picture of my partnerkissing me on the cheek on my credenza.
(08:51):
This is back when you had an office and weare all working from home.
And I let and I sort of let it be and Ieased into it, David.
And that's what worked for me.
Right.
And I got a chance to like, when peopleasked me, I was like, oh, let me tell you
about him, you know?
And that was my way of just sort of likebeing, right?
(09:16):
But what I learned from that is I learnedto give people a lot of grace.
Even I, as a person who was not out atwork, had a lot of prejudgments about what
you were supposed to do or what you weresupposed to look like as an out gay
professional, right?
right.
what I learned from that was I learned togive myself and other people grace around
(09:40):
authenticity and figuring out what worksfor them.
And that's so important, right?
Um, when I look at our new data aroundLGBTQ plus folks, um, that feel like 71%
of the folks that we talked to said thatthey felt that they'd been passed over for
a promotion or a raise when they were notcode switching.
(10:02):
And I remember.
Um, you know, I worked in a veryconservative industry in the, in the
beginning of my career and I was a seniorleader and I was in Boston, um, uh, for it
to see a client and my uncle who had beenan early executive at Polaroid, um, I
decided to, instead of going to a hoteland staying with my uncle and I was
(10:24):
watching sports center and my uncle knowsme and he knows that I wasn't a big sports
guy and he said, why are you watchingthis?
And I said to him,quite honestly, I said, hey, I'm the big
black guy.
And all of my clients are 40, 50 year oldwhite guys, straight white guys who when
(10:45):
they see the big black guy, they wannatalk to me about basketball and football.
They're not gonna talk to me about thefact that I just saw Wicked on Broadway.
They're not gonna talk to me about allthese other things that I'm really, really
interested in.
And I said, I want to not just survive atwork.
I wanna thrive at work becauserelationships matter.
And so I'm doing what I feel like I needto do, which is a form of code switching,
(11:06):
right?
To be able to relate to my clients becausemy clients have to like me.
And my uncle who, you know, is an oldergeneration, he was like, kid, you're going
to make it.
That's the smartest shit I've heard allday.
He was like, that's exactly what youshould be doing.
Right.
So I tell my, you know, I tell mymillennial
(11:32):
husband that exact same story, yearslater, and he says, oh babe, I'm so sorry
you had to go through that.
He says, oh babe, I'm so sorry you had togo through that.
Right?
And so generationally, I think that thereare some nuances to what we feel like was
necessary, but I always caution youngerqueer professionals to the fact that
(11:59):
survive is one thing.
Thrive is another.
And there's a certain aspect ofrelationship building and code switching
that many of us will still have to dobecause your peer group is one thing, but
many of the decision makers in your careerright now are not your peer group.
(12:23):
They grew up and grew up through the ranksof corporate America in a very different
way.
And so,And as much as I truly believe that there
are places where people can be theirauthentic selves and thrive, what I don't
wanna do is I never want to give youngpeople of color and young queer people
this horrible advice about bringing yourwhole self to work.
(12:49):
That is such bad advice.
And I say that with caveats, right?
My company, does not need 3 a.m.
in Ibiza, Drew, at work every day.
It does not need bottomless mimosa Drew atwork every day.
It does not need Drew five minutes afterhe's watched the Rachel Maddow show at
(13:14):
work every day, right?
Cause that Drew will not necessarily be onmission, right?
But I do think that the world of work doesneed our authenticity and needs the
benefit of our lived experience and for usto be able to come into our offices and
(13:35):
share the perspectives that are unique tous because our differences can be our
superpowers.
They absolutely can.
But those differences as it relates tobeing authentic and being honest and being
transparent.
But I think that the onus is still oncompanies and corporations and
organizations.
and allies to create safe spaces forpeople to be authentic.
(14:00):
And authenticity is not necessarily about,you know, about the clothes we put on our
back or about those sorts of things.
Authenticity is oftentimes most closelyrelated to our lived experience and what
we, and what our identity, how that nuanceof our identity shapes our.
(14:23):
thinking and our strategy and our problemsolving, right?
Because that's what our companies needfrom us most.
Yeah, and a couple of things, Drew.
One, my first two managers in my careerwere from the same generation.
My first two managers talk about theextreme in code switching.
(14:44):
I came out in my first job.
Oh, hang on.
It says we're trying to reconnect.
You're clear as a bell on my side.
So two of my first managers in my career,after I had come out in my first job, I
was out in the workplace, not advocating,not leading, but I was out.
(15:05):
And my manager gave me two invitations totwo holiday parties.
This is in Atlanta in the early 90s.
And I said, you're having two parties?
I mean, is there one for work, one social?
And he said, one is my...
gay community and one is my straightcommunity.
(15:25):
I think that's to your point aboutgenerations and where we are and I think
that's surprising.
Then my next boss and my next position, heretired and had never come out.
After he retired, I find out he's beenwith his partner for 35 years.
(15:45):
His partner is a very successful marketeras well.
And so it's not that long ago, I guess, iswhat I'm saying.
And a guest in one of the earlier episodessaid, you know, as gay people, we've
become experts in reading rooms.
We've become experts in trying to figureout how can we fit in and what and where
(16:06):
are we going to share and when.
You know, and I think, you know, as yousaid, finding those safe spaces, you know,
some of your data, you know, two in threeLGBT identified folks believe
hiding their identity helps them.
So even though generationally we may havemade progress, it's still the numbers are
staggering in the fear and the doubt, andwill this affect my career, my
(16:31):
promotability, et cetera.
What, as you started to talk about safespaces and otherwise, what advice might
you give, or even what tools and resourcesmight exist through LinkedIn and your
network, what advice might you give sortof a younger queer professional?
someone who may not be younger, butthey're, they're starting to say, you
know, I've had enough.
(16:52):
I want to start to becoming more authenticand showing up more authentically at work.
What advice might you give folks that arecontemplating that?
Yeah, such a good question.
I mean, I honestly think that, you know,the first thing is, I say this to any
professional, but particular professionalsfrom underrepresented groups is that
you've got to build a professionalcommunity.
(17:14):
I call mine my personal board ofdirectors, but then also a community
outside of that.
And you need people from really diversebackgrounds as your advisors and part of
your professional community.
because you need people who are rootingfor you to win.
And oftentimes the people that you have inyour professional network are people that
(17:37):
you can learn certain things from.
So my partner and I are thinking aboutfamily planning right now.
So there's, you know, there are more dads,particularly gay dads in my professional
circle.
And I've been really intentional aboutthat because I want to show up as a great
partner and I'm still gonna have a goodjob, you know, so that I can pay for all
of this stuff, right?
(17:58):
And I want to have a great career and Iwant to be a great father and I want to be
a great partner.
I think that building your network andleaning into your network, you've got to
find your people.
You find your flock, right?
Is what I always say.
And having people around you to askquestions, to support, to rehearse it with
you if you want, if you think I'm thinkingabout coming out and people to lean on if
(18:21):
it goes well and if it does not go well.
So I think that that's one of the things.
I think you've got to be really secure inwho you are as a professional.
before you make that decision, reallysecure and understanding who your allies
are today and who, you know, and how youbuild community after you decide to come
out, right?
(18:41):
I don't think that you should wait untilthe day you come out to start engaging
queer professionals at work, right?
I think that there's a bit of strategythat even comes along with deciding when
to come out because the reality is formost of us is that
coming out as a journey and not adestination.
It's a unique experience for every singleperson.
(19:04):
And I feel like I've come out many timesin my career.
But so the number one thing is that you'vegot to find your flock, build a network of
people who will be supportive of you andsupportive of you in how you decide to do
it.
And at what rate you decide to come out,right?
The other thing I would say is once you docome out, if there are communities already
(19:25):
built in at your office, like employeeresource groups, I would say, find your
flock at work as well in terms of employeeresource groups.
The other thing I think is reallyimportant is you've gotta figure out how
you'll respond and react to the questionsthat you get, right?
Because you will get some questions.
(19:46):
That's great advice.
Yeah.
start to think through that, right?
So that you're not caught off guard or youdon't answer emotionally, right?
Oftentimes, because it's still work.
And so I think that the thinking throughwhat your coming out plan is, I think is
really, really helpful and being able tohave support at work and it's support at
(20:06):
home.
But for folks who are thinking, hey, I'm agay person and I really wanna find
I want to be able to figure out how tolook for better, you know, for better
environments, right?
I think that there's a lot of things thatyou again, tapping into your network,
other queer people will give you the realdeal facts on what it's like to be queer
(20:31):
at certain companies.
Um, I think you can, if you're, if you'reon LinkedIn, following other queer voices
on LinkedIn, we have LinkedIn top voices,um, of LGBTQ plus professionals and
executives.
I think looking into professionalorganizations like Out and Equal or some
of the many organizations for LGBTQ plusprofessionals.
(20:53):
I think about the things that I learned atLesbians Who Tech last year.
I'm not a lesbian, but I'm in tech and Ilearned so much there.
And figuring out how like out leadershipsome of these organizations that really do
have some great examples and blueprintsfor how to navigate your career as a queer
professional.
The other thing I think too is likefinding like tools, like if, if inclusion
(21:16):
is a, is a core value of yours and you'rein the job search, I mean, there are
things like our values filter on LinkedIn.
If you're searching for a job, you can.
I'm going to turn off my outlook.
I'm sorry.
Sorry about that.
I'm just going to say that last partagain.
(21:37):
Even though it was a long-winded answer, Iprobably should.
No.
There's also, if you're looking for a job,there's also the LinkedIn values feature
that allows you to literally search for ajob.
And it'll only show you jobs fromcompanies that
have core values that you've outlinedthrough the filter, like inclusion, like
(21:57):
financial benefits, like family planningbenefits and things like that.
And you've got to know your why.
Why now?
Why do you want to come out?
What's your rationale?
Because once you identify what your whyis, it makes so many of the other
decisions that you make about coming outeasier to make.
(22:20):
And it makes so many of the responses andreactions that you get after coming out
easier to take when you can go back toyour why for me, my coming out was about I
was in love and I was, and I didn't wantto have to hide that thing.
And I also didn't want to go into my newjob and my new environment with this thing
(22:41):
that I was waiting for the other shoe todrop on, right?
Right, right.
no longer felt like being a gay man wasgoing to be a deterrent in my career.
And so some of the things that I think aresome of the reasons why people say that
they don't want to come out at work.
Some of us are internalized, right?
(23:04):
Some of it is absolutely the environment.
We know that all of the legislation that'sout there now that's anti LGBTQ plus
legislation, there's a ton of rhetoric outthere that is that is anti LGBTQ plus.
But sometimes we've internalized thesebarriers to our being out and being able
(23:25):
to thrive at work.
And then for me, I'd had a mindset shiftaround it.
I was at the point where I felt like I amconfident in my skills, I am confident in
my experience, I am confident in myresume, and I am confident in my ability
to find great work, do great work, andthrive.
(23:45):
no matter what my identity is.
And I don't want to hide.
And that was the biggest determiningfactor for me.
I knew what my why was.
My why was I just didn't wanna hideanymore.
Yeah.
Well, and Drew, you know, clearly youdecided to do that.
You haven't looked back.
You you know what?
(24:07):
You started out in roles that maybe didn'thave specific D and I responsibility and
over your career, you've assumed and ledand do today really impact organizations,
your own and others through the work youdo.
Tell us a little bit about once you onceyou once you figured out that, why you
came out.
(24:27):
How did that?
change your career trajectory?
How do you think that impacted whereyou've now sort of landed today?
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I feel like I cameup when I came out, right?
Um, I, I looked at my, the things thatmade me different as assets.
And I knew that it could help me solveproblems differently.
(24:49):
I was a, my voice was a differentiatedvoice in the room.
And once I achieved some modicum ofsuccess at work, um, I felt like, how can
I start to sort of use the fact that I ama trusted advisor?
Um, to not only help people in general,but like to help people who, um, identify
(25:11):
in the same way that I identify.
And I also found opportunities to, toconnect my, um, my experience and my
understanding of the queer experience tobusiness, um, outcomes.
When I was at Nielsen, I was a part of theteam that, that helped.
(25:33):
to add, Nielsen does television ratingsand they operate in 106 countries around
the world.
One of the major things that we weretrying to do was to figure out how to
better measure viewership for LGBTQ plusprofessionals.
And I grew up in Mississippi on a dirtroad, right?
And so part of the, you know, I was on theteam that said, how do we get to a place
(25:57):
where we can actually measure LGBTQ plusviewership?
How do we get that data?
And we worked really, really closely withqueer advocacy groups.
And, you know, part of my perspective wasit's very easy for us to walk up to, you
know, a brownstone in Brooklyn or anapartment in San Francisco or, or Los
(26:19):
Angeles and ask people their identity andto, and to self-disclose what their sexual
orientation is, um, or what their genderjourney is.
That is not as easy in Hattiesburg,Mississippi.
That is not as easy in Jacksonville,Florida.
You know what I mean?
That is not as easy in Aiken, SouthCarolina.
And what we had to do, and it took us twoyears to do it, but we got to, I was a
(26:43):
part of the team that brought LGBTQ plusmeasurement to television ratings.
And we did it by being empathetic.
We did it by.
being really realistic about the fact thatthe lived experience of queer people is
different from the lived experience ofheterosexual people and we did not shy
away from it.
And we had queer people in leadershipthere, but we were also smart enough to
(27:04):
know that we couldn't go at it alone.
And once I saw that, I was like, oh,there's so many other things that we
could, you know, that I could do as aleader.
I was the executive sponsor, the globalexecutive sponsor for our pride group
there for five years.
We did so many amazing things, likeeverything from making sure that PrEP was
(27:29):
covered in our insurance, but not onlyPrEP, but making sure that the testing for
PrEP was covered, even if you were notalready HIV positive, but just if you were
on PrEP and as a prophylactic, right?
So many things that we did for employeesto help them be able to thrive, not just
(27:49):
survive at work, but thrive.
Um, that I was really, really proud of.
Right.
And so, um, there are a lot of thingsthat, you know, that we saw, I let our
work to own, um, just how we engaged, um,communities of underrepresented groups
and, you know, I became a leader in thatwork and, um, I think that part of what
(28:16):
was beautiful about being able to.
do an amazing job as a marketer, right?
Because I had responsibility for USconsumer marketing.
And then I said, part of what we needed todo as a hundred plus year old company was
we needed to sort of reintroduce ourselvesto younger consumers.
(28:38):
What I always sort of leaned into was Ileaned into the data and I knew that, you
know, 48% of millennials were people ofcolor.
AndSo we had to speak to them with
specificity and authenticity.
And so once we started to do that, we alsostarted to look at the data and that more
people were coming out, more people werebeing more comfortable, um, with their
(29:01):
LGBTQ plus identity.
And we wanted to make sure that we werespeaking to these consumers with
specificity.
And that was part of my job.
And the biggest thing that was, that gaveme a lot of excitement was that our
clients started to say, Hey, y'all do thisreally well.
Can you like give me an idea of like howwe should approach?
(29:25):
And one of the first things that I said tothem when we were talking about LGBTQ plus
consumers, I was like, you do realize thatgay people are gay all year long and not
just in June, right?
And I was like, you can't just do yourwhole gay push in June, right?
And Pride is not about, you know,rainbow balloons and feather boas on
(29:47):
floats, right?
That it's always been a protest.
I mean, celebrate pride by, you know,taking a stand and, you know, instead of
spending $20,000 on a float and a parade,maybe make sure that your insurance covers
prep and all of the clinical testing forit.
Like, tell a great story of what you'vedone all year round for, you know, for
(30:11):
these underrepresented groups and notjust, you know, on hallways for 30 days.
And that's true forHispanic heritage month that's true for
black history month, right?
right.
Well, I mean, the work at Nielsen soundsamazing.
And the work that you're doing now,obviously, I think for folks to visit
(30:33):
LinkedIn and look at those top voices, Ijust learned today about this values
opportunity.
I think that's amazing.
Because I think part of this process innavigating your career, as someone who
again has been in the workplace for awhile is it's eventually,
To be honest, from my perspective, it'syou realize what you don't want.
(30:54):
So whether it was that situation you foundyourself in with a manager questioning one
of your employees and talking about theiridentity, but the experience that you
accumulate, you figure out really what youdon't want, which allows you to get to
your why as you say it.
I think it's really, and I think some ofthese tools can really help get you there
sooner, because you've got accessibilityto those.
(31:15):
Well, Drew, one last question.
People love to know the...
the answer to this.
People love to see what my guests sayabout this.
But clearly, people are going to take awaya lot of really great insights from our
conversation.
But I'd love to ask you, if you were tohost a Clout for Good dinner party, you
were going to honor, you were going toinvite folks that either just, they
(31:37):
inspire you, maybe they've mentored you.
Who are some folks you might invite fromthe queer community, either living or not?
Who are some folks you might invite?
And why?
Why would you want them at your Cloud forGood dinner party?
Yeah, I love this.
I love this question.
I think the first one that I would invitehas to be James Baldwin.
(32:01):
James Baldwin's writings really shaped mythinking when I was a college student.
And one of the things that Baldwin saysreally has sort of shaped just how I think
about my career too.
And I always tell young people thatwhether you're coming out or
(32:22):
whether you're taking a stand at work,lead with great results, but be
authentically you, especially when it'suncomfortable, right?
Discomfort at work is oftentimes a gift,and discomfort will drive you to find
places where you can thrive as your truestself.
And James Baldwin said something, he said,"'You have to go the way your blood
(32:45):
boils.'" And I think that that's wherethat's been the biggest shift in my career
is I've always been a marketer.
I've always been a communications leader.
Now I have married my purpose and mymission with the work that I do in helping
people better navigate the world of work.
(33:07):
And that is where my blood boils, right?
And so I think that that's one.
The other person that I would add to thatis a friend and an author, a guy named
Clay Kane.
He's the host of the Clay Kane show onSiriusXM, and he is an author.
(33:28):
He's interviewed some of the most iconicblack artists, as well as folks in the
political sphere.
He is a out-proud gay man who has recentlywon awards for a series that he's done on
his show.
where he speaks to people who have beenexonerated by DNA evidence now that the
(33:54):
DNA evidence has gotten better.
And Clay is a journalist and he's funnyand he does great karaoke.
I would add Clay to that.
I would definitely add Clay to that list.
And then the final one and someone elsewho I just am marvel at is Bayard Rustin.
(34:15):
And he was one of the architects ofMartin Luther King's March on Washington.
He was an unsung hero for many, manyyears.
Most people who covered, who have writtenextensively about the civil rights
movement did not understand that BayardRustin was this black gay man who really
was the architect of the March onWashington.
He, when I say architect from beginning toend, like he advocated for it, he wrangled
(34:39):
all the right people, he convinced MartinLuther King to do it.
And Coleman Domingo.
who is also somebody I love, had a dinnerparty just because he's a marvelous to
look at.
And he's an amazing, he's an amazingactor.
Um, played Rustin in the new movie onNetflix, um, that the Obama's produced.
(35:00):
And, um, Bayard Rustin was just, I wouldlove to hear the stories that, um, should
have been in the epic autobiography that Iwish someone had written or biography that
someone had written about his life in thein the struggle, his friendship with Dr.
King, as well as his very interestingpersonal life, because there's some
(35:24):
interesting things about his personal lifethat I think would just be delicious to
hear about.
Well, that sounds like an amazing party.
I, you know, I don't know Clay and we'llcertainly listen to his show and learn
more.
But, you know, Coleman Domingo, obviouslyoutstanding performance.
I know that he won the BET outstandingactor award for both that and Color Purple
(35:48):
this year, which was pretty fantastic.
And, you know, it's pretty amazing as youwatch Rustin.
It's a story that's just being told now.
It'sIt's amazing that story has been sort of
hidden or just untold for so long.
But, you know, and James Baldwin, ofcourse, having such an impact on so many
(36:10):
of us that have all read his work andlearned a lot about him.
So I love it.
Well, Drew, thank you so much.
Listen, thank you for what you do.
Thanks for being on the show.
as well.
It was great.
It was really, really insightful.
And I know the listeners are going to geta lot out of your out of your stories and
also your recommendations.
So thanks for joining.
Oh, thanks for having me.
(36:30):
This is great.
Yeah, thank you.
And to all of my listeners, thanks so muchfor joining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Clout for Good.
Follow us on social, visitcloutforgood.com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour clout for good to make a difference
in your workplace.
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