Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I don't think you can be effective in lifewithout being your whole self and who you
are.
And you're going to be handicappedwhatever you're doing, whether it is
athletics, whether it's communications,whether it's politics, whether it's law,
finance, whatever you're doing, if youcan't be yourself, right?
There's a part of you that's not outthere.
You're always going to be partly worriedabout being found out.
(00:24):
I think it takes away from your career inbig ways.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clop for Good is a bi -weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
(00:44):
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Brian Elnerto the podcast.
Brian is the president of One StrategyGroup.
a strategy and communications firm wherehe leads and manages major client
(01:06):
relationships and the firm's strategicgrowth.
He's held key leadership positions at someof the world's top communications
organizations, including WPP, BCW, andEdelman.
And he was a senior aide in theadministration of New York City Mayor
Michael Bloomberg.
Brian's a prominent leader in theoverlapping worlds of corporate public
(01:28):
affairs and purpose.
He helped shape the strategy for thepassage of the Respect of Marriage Act,
the Equal Rights Amendment, ERA, and theEquality Act, and he serves on the board
of Athlete Ally.
Brian's a native New Yorker and he livesin the city with his husband.
Brian, thanks so much for joining us andwelcome to the show.
(01:49):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Great to be here.
Yeah.
Well, let's jump in.
First of all, let's start the conversationoff.
Maybe take a few minutes and talk to meabout how you identify.
One of the things that has certainly beenimportant about the podcast is really
understanding where folks are coming from.
(02:09):
How do they identify?
And tell us a little bit about your comingout experience, either professionally or
personally or both.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Sure.
Wow.
A lot to unpack there.
So identify as a New Yorker and relevant.
First and foremost, and probably mostrelevant to this podcast, Openly Gay Man,
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he, him, his pronouns.
In terms of coming out, I think for likemost people, it was a bit of a journey.
Personally, ironically, less soprofessionally.
I went to college at Dartmouth, which atthe time, I don't really wanna date
myself, but it was a few years ago.
(02:57):
Um, it was a tough climate, um, to beopenly gay.
There were hardly any openly gay studentson campus.
And I was closeted in college and I cameout to friends and family, um, in law
school when I started, um, dating my firstboyfriend.
(03:20):
And it was sort of interesting at the timebecause I felt, um,
I had been very political at Dartmouth,including around progressive politics,
including around LGBTQIA issues.
I was part of a movement to get ROTCremoved from campus because at the time
you couldn't serve openly in the military.
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So I was part of that movement and morebroadly other diversity movements.
And so I was a very political person andactually thought I wouldn't come out.
in part because I was interested inpursuing a political career.
And at the time there were really no rolemodels.
When I got to law school, I went toHarvard for law school and I was in
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Cambridge, which was a much moreprogressive place at the time.
And met, as I said, my first boyfriend.
And I sort of decided being a politicalperson that I'd be a little militant about
this and not treat my life any differentlyas if Andy had been a woman.
I was gonna be the same person in life andit was up to everyone else to sort of deal
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with it.
I'm dating this person, I'm in love withthis person and you're gonna accept him
and you're gonna accept us or not.
So it was ironic after being closeted incollege and in law school, I came out in
my first relationship and felt verystrongly that whether it was friends or
family and ultimately the workplace, Iwouldn't be treated differently.
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So.
One funny story that my mother retells isevidently I took her out to brunch in
Chelsea, of course, to tell her, and Idon't honestly remember this, but she
insists on it and sort of angrily told herthat I was dating Andy and that I was
bisexual like Madonna, how I came out tomy mother.
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Which is very embarrassing today.
But obviously at the time I was a big fanof Madonna and that's how I came out to my
mother.
So, you know, as I said, I sort of feltlike it would, you know, everyone was
going to have to accept me on these termsbecause I was going to be true to myself.
So fast forward a couple years ago, acouple years and I had my first job at a
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law firm.
It was a somewhat conservative law firmcalled White and Case in New York.
And I felt, you know, I'm going to be out,right, because I'm gay and
I'm going to be brave about this.
So they kick off for first year associateswith a retreat and we're going to a golf
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and tennis outing and I'm getting on a busand literally everyone is dressed in khaki
pants and prepared for golf.
I'd signed up to tennis because I playedtennis.
I grew up in the East Village, never beenon a golf course or to a golf club.
And I'm looking at all of these people,many who are older and seemingly
conservative.
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And as I said, all in pleated khaki pants,which I did not own.
And I sit down on the bus and I'm like,wow, there's literally no way I'm going to
come out in the workplace.
This is terrifying.
And a woman sits down next to me namedElaine Johnston, who was a partner at
White in Case.
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And she was an out lesbian, partnered.
And she obviously had done her researchand knew who I was.
And she sat down next to me and we gotalong, obviously, famously.
And she became a great mentor.
And I didn't need any convincing to comeout after that bus ride to the country
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club, because I realized something that'svery important, especially for young
people to see in the workplace, that youcould be enormously successful if you're
out and true to yourself.
And there's no more.
you know, higher pinnacle than becoming apartner at a law firm when you are at a
law firm.
And she was, and she was widely respectedand she was, she was an antitrust and, you
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know, really tough.
And, uh, she was my first workplace mentorand, uh, I never really looked back after
that.
That is, that's really amazing.
Some of the guests on Club for Good Brianhave said in their advice.
that they would give to others, whichwe'll talk about yours later, is they've
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often said, make sure you go find yourpeople.
They're out there, you know, find them.
And your experience was almost just theopposite.
Your people found you and made you feelcomfortable and created that.
It's really, and that is scary.
And what, tell me a little bit about whenyou were contemplating why, you know,
you've described khakis and conservativeand golf.
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Why were you hesitant?
to come out?
What were you fearful of as you werecontemplating?
You know, I think it was about probablyfitting in.
I mean, to be fair, you know, a little bitto myself.
I mean, we're literally talking about overthe course of a bus ride.
I changed my mind.
But joking aside, I think it was I alreadyfelt, wow, I don't fit in separate and
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apart from sexuality.
And I sort of felt this.
You know, you said my people, these don'tseem like my people.
I've never played a round of golf.
I don't own khaki pants or if they didn'thave pleats, at least at the time.
I think maybe pleats are coming back, so Idon't want to offend anyone.
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So I think I already felt like, wow, thisis going to be a lot to gain acceptance,
much less to add to that otherdifferentiator.
And in a sense that we all have that...
you know, Gator ability to sort of pick upothers, especially back when people were
much less public, we had ways of sort offinding each other before there were apps
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and before it was sort of everywhere,right?
And I wasn't sensing any of that on thatbus, or in the days or weeks that I had
been at the firm until then, there werenot a lot of out corporate associates back
in that day, which is why.
you know, Elaine was so important to meand so heroic in her own life.
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Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, even recently I was readingan article, you know, still today of, of
employees, especially younger employeeswho identify as LGBT, close to half of
them still fear what coming out might doto, as you say, fitting in, might, what it
might do to their career, to theirpromotability.
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So there still is.
even today as things have changed quite abit, there still is that fear of that.
So, and Brian, when you came out in this,your first role and you've now navigated,
as I mentioned in introducing you, lots ofreally prominent organizations, both in
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the public and the private sector, as wellas have been a part of a lot of
significant nonprofit organizations.
Have you found times and or what are thosetimes where you feel like you've had to
sort of question, am I going to be myauthentic self?
Have you found moments throughout the spanof your career where you've had to
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modulate who you show up as or to hideyour identity in some way as you've
navigated your career?
The truth is I really have not.
After that initial questioning on the bus,before Elaine sat next to me and sort of
fell in love with her as a mentor, Ireally haven't.
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And maybe I've been fortunate.
The places that I've worked have beenincredibly supportive.
I've also managed to find mentorseverywhere I've worked.
And you said finding your people.
When I went to Paul Weiss, there wasWalter Rieman.
And Robbie Kaplan, who now is famouslyargued the marriage equality case before
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the US Supreme Court.
She was a partner of Paul Weiss when I wasthere.
So I've always had mentors wherever I'vebeen.
And honestly, and that's why the numberthat you say about 50 % of employees are
not out.
I find it shocking because it's almostbeen an additive, I felt, in the
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workplace.
And something that hasYou know, distinguished me and made me
more relevant and important to theseplaces because I have been able to speak
to different experiences and help otherpeople.
Navigate difficult workplace environmentssometimes.
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So, look regionally, I understanddifferences, but based on most industries
in big cities, I'm still surprised bythat, which is why I think the work that
you're doing and.
is really important because that numbershould be much higher.
I mean, I'd like it to be 100 % someday,but I'm surprised it's not in the 70s, 80s
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or 90s right now.
Yeah, it still surprises me too.
And as you said, sort of one of thereasons I wanted to have these
conversations in Start Club for Good is toshare these stories.
And not everyone has had an easy go at itand there are challenges along the way for
sure.
And...
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You know, Brian, using your experiencefrom any part of your professional career,
one of the things, the reason that Cloutfor Good got its name is when you're out
in the workplace, the idea is you can useyour clout.
You can really make a difference.
And as you've said, with helping othersand sharing and showing up authentically,
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give us some examples.
Talk to folks who don't know you.
I certainly know some of these examples ofhaving been able to get to know you over
the years, but when have you used yourclout for good?
When have you used your clout for good tomake a difference at a company or an
organization or for a movement?
What are some examples that you can shareof how you've used that clout for good in
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real time?
Yeah, so I've honestly tried to make thata mission of mine wherever I've worked.
And sometimes I've...
My work has been mission driven and I cantalk about that a little bit, including in
our space.
But when I was lawyering back at PaulWeiss, I worked on a number of pro bono
cases that impacted our community,including one with Robbie Kaplan involving
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Yeshiva University where they had a policyaround housing that excluded non -married
couples from living together and a lesbiancouple brought suit.
And of course they couldn't marry at thetime in New York or anywhere.
So I am dating myself and so, you know, wework pro bono on that case.
I also worked on another case with somecolleagues of Paul Weiss where we
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represented an HIV positive man who wasdenied access to his HIV meds during his
pre incarceration arraignment time.
So, you know, did that work did a numberof pro bono campaigns since I've gotten
into the communications world mostrecently.
With WPP, we did a big campaign with HRC,the human rights campaign in support of
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the Equality Act, which you mentioned.
Many people don't realize, includingpeople within our community, that despite
the fact that we have marriage equalityacross the country, we can still be
discriminated against in various facets oflife in many, many states, because many
states don't have non -discriminationlaws.
So that's why.
(15:07):
There is something called the EqualityAct, which has yet to pass Congress, but
we did a big campaign called the RealityFlag Campaign, which was HRC's, one of
HRC's most successful campaigns ever.
We also did a really fun pro bono campaignwith the mayor of New York, Eric Adams,
after DeSantis pushed the so -called don'tsay gay bill, and we put billboards all
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over Florida, pro bono saying New YorkCity says gay, New York loves you, come to
a city where you're supported, really.
get under his skin and to sort of make apoint and bring attention to it.
So I've always tried to use my clout forgood in the public sphere, but also
internally.
One thing I'm really proud of that Ipushed for recently at WPP was to develop
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family planning benefits for same -sexcouples because we were not eligible when
I got there for things like a surrogacybenefit.
And as many people know, it's incrediblychallenging and costly whether to pursue
adoption or surrogacy as a same sex couplewho don't have other options.
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So we now have a benefit.
So I've always pushed internally for thosekinds of resources as well.
That's great.
That's amazing.
I mean, and I think it's great becauseyou've, you know, on the sort of...
political side and on the professionalside, you've also been able to, as you
even said, with your bio and your intro,is really mix those two together, really
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merge them together and focus on them.
And not a lot of people get to do both ofthose things and cross over with their
professional work.
A lot of people I've learned now withquite a few episodes recorded and getting
feedback from folks who listen,A lot of folks are in that 50 % of I'm not
quite living authentically or they'requestioning whether they should come out
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or what does it mean to be authentic?
And getting back to as you explained thatElaine had found you, what are some maybe
recommendations or tips or what would yougive as advice to someone who's
questioning, I want to be more authentic.
(17:26):
I want to come out.
I want to.
to show up differently?
What advice would you give them as theythink about that in their workplace?
Well, look, so much of it is individual.
So honestly, I'd like to give them advice,understanding their unique situations.
But I could say a few things that are alittle general.
I don't think you can be effective in lifewithout being your whole self and who you
(17:50):
are.
And you're going to be handicappedwhatever you're doing, whether it is
athletics, whether it's communications,whether it's politics, whether it's
law, finance, whatever you're doing, ifyou can't be yourself, right?
There's a part of you that's not outthere.
You're always gonna be partly worriedabout being found out.
I think it takes away from your career inbig ways.
(18:12):
Often people know anyway, and there'sissues around courage and respect and all
that other stuff that gets wrapped into.
I would say that I've only had.
Great, I know it's not the case foreveryone else, you know, for everyone and
regional differences might matter andpotentially what kind of work you're doing
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and who you're surrounded by.
So I don't want to be glib, but I've beenreally fortunate where being out and true
to myself and also pushing for equalrights for our community and for others
have done a lot of work and a lot of civilrights work on race and done a lot of work
on women's equality.
But all of that has only helped me in mycareer and sort of a funny story, but the
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reason I'm actually in communicationsright now almost has to do with that.
I left the mayor's office when I wasworking for Mike Bloomberg in 2011 to work
on the campaign for marriage in New York,which we famously won with a Republican
Senate.
And it was a big moment for the movementand we never lost again at before
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legislature or a plebiscite.
And I stayed on for a little bit after wewon in New York to help build Americans
for marriage equality with the humanrights campaign.
And while I was doing that work, there wasan article in the New York Times about
Steve Schmidt who went on to found theLincoln project, but who at the time had
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just run John McCain's campaign forpresident.
And Steve was a Republican operator beforehe left the Republican party over Trump.
And he was at Edelman.
And he was working with Anthony Romero ofthe ACLU who was leading it then and still
leads it today on strategies for bringingmore Republicans out and support a gay
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marriage or marriage equality.
I read that Times article.
I'm like, that's what I've been trying todo for the last two years.
I need to meet this guy.
So through, you know, common friends, Ireached out to Steve and he was up for
meeting and I went down to DC and.
He was drinking me under the table atlunch, you know, martini after martini.
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I was trying to keep up and we're talkingabout everything but marriage equality and
getting along famously.
It's a time.
Remember he's a Republican who just runMcCain's campaign and he said, you know,
you should, you should come work atEdelman.
Richard would love you.
You did the gay marriage work.
You know, you went to Dartmouth, you're alawyer.
Um, and I said to, you know, Steve, isthat even a possibility?
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And he basically said, Oh, you don't knowthe guy who led public affairs.
He'd left a few weeks ago and, you know,fast forward a few weeks and I'm meeting
with, you know, Richard Edelman and othersenior leaders at Edelman and was hired,
you know, within weeks or a month or twoof that meeting with Steve.
So just an example where like, not justbeing openly gay was in that positive, but
the work for the movement was perceivedby.
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You know, a straight Republican andultimately, you know, Richard Edelman, a
straight man is, you know, one of the mostprominent people in communications as big
pluses, right?
And he took a chance on me because for meit was a second or third career.
I went from law into politics withBloomberg while I had done a lot of
communications in the Bloombergadministration.
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And of course, the marriage campaign waslargely communicated.
I wasn't classically trained in it.
I didn't grow up in an agency, but Richardhired me on the strength of those
experiences.
So I urge everyone to come out, be yourtrue authentic self and anyone who wants
to talk about it, I'm easy to find.
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I love it.
I mean, Brian, that's such a greatexample.
I mean, to your point, it's...
I'm gonna be myself, I'm gonna beauthentic and you're rewarded for it.
And like you said, I think many people arein different financial situations or
geographical situations, corporateenvironments, and they're making different
(22:15):
decisions based on that, which as one ofmy guests said, first and foremost, make
sure you're safe and make sure you'refinancially able to.
And I think then though, once you'rebeyond that, or if you...
can get beyond that.
I think it's such a great example of, andin an unexpected way, I'm doing the right
thing.
I'm fighting for what I believe in, andit's recognized for something that could
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be even more about, and has led you onthis career journey to now being the
president of Strategy One, which is just,which is amazing.
So I think that's a great example.
What advice, and you sort of alluded tothis maybe by some of the changes you led
at WPP, but what advice might you give,There's also a lot of folks from companies
that are allies or they work in DE &I orthey work in HR that are listeners of Clot
(23:03):
for Good.
What advice would you give to theworkplace, to companies?
What changes would you like to see or whatadvice might you give to companies that
are listening to this and thinking abouttheir LGBTQ efforts within their
workplace?
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Sure, well, a few things.
I'd start off with a thank you.
because I think allies are incrediblyimportant.
As you mentioned at the beginning, it'swhy I was a founding board member of
Athlete Ally, which is an organizationthat's focused on ending homophobia in
sports and also using the reach ofprofessional athletes to push for equal
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rights.
Allyship is really important.
I think this is a really big moment tohave that conversation because look,
we don't always progress.
Sometimes there are steps back inmovements.
And right now we're seeing that, right?
We're seeing significant attacks on thetransgender community across the nation.
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We're seeing a revolt against DEI andpolicies that are focused on making
workplaces more inclusive.
And I would say to our allies, like, standup for your people and continue to do the
right thing.
Keep pushing for equal health benefits.
Support which are employee resourcegroups.
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You don't know how important that is forsome young employees who are worried about
coming out what you just discussed the 50% number.
I mean, all allies and all of us should besort of stunned by that.
It shows how much more we need to dodespite the progress.
So, yeah, I think this is a real momentand I would say that I would also advise
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them to really focus on your people.
I mean, some of the best responses I'veever heard to the sort of anti woke
movement right now are by leaders whobring it back to equal rights, to
workforce and protecting employees thatit's not about politics.
It's not about posing.
It's about making sure everyone who worksfor me is protected, is safe, is included,
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belongs and has equal rights and benefits.
And I think we've seen a number of CEOsspeak out.
on that issue powerfully recently, tryingto push back against the so -called sort
of anti -woke movement.
Yeah, and I love the advice of alliesstanding up, standing beside.
And I think your example of marriageequality and your WPP work around
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surrogacy and adoption, I think there is.
An opportunity to listen and to learn.
I think the assumption is, like you said,oh, marriage equality.
That means everything's okay.
That means everything is equal and therestill is a lot of work to do.
And to your point, with so much anti-legislation and efforts, more than ever,
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we need allies to be standing up and to bethere beside us.
Well, two final questions, Brian.
One is...
You've been a part of so many greatorganizations, again, both professionally,
but also, I think, importantly, from anonprofit and a political perspective.
What resources, I ask this of every guest,these last two questions, but what
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resource, or if you want to name a few,that's totally fine.
But what resources might you share withlisteners of Cloud for Good?
Like we've mentioned, maybe someonethinking of...
coming out at work, maybe an ally, and itmay be someone who's completely out at
work and running their ERG and doing somegreat work.
But what resources have you tapped into orwould you like to share with the listeners
(26:50):
of Cloud for Good?
I mean, the truth is there's so much outthere and so many good organizations doing
great work.
I've found resources at GLAD reallyhelpful, particularly around language and
inclusivity.
and combating hate speech and otherthings.
(27:11):
I think GLAD has tons of resources ontheir website.
Obviously the Human Rights Campaign, HRC,particularly the Corporate Equality Index
is a great measure to have conversationsabout equal treatment of workers in any
workplace environment.
It's a great place for resources.
(27:32):
But again, it really depends.
depends on the issue and where you'reworking.
I mean, I'll make another plug for athleteally.
I think sports is still one of the placeswhere we need to do a lot of work.
There isn't a single openly gay maleathlete right now in any of the four big
sports.
We know why that is.
There's still so much homophobia in sportat every level and too many kids aren't
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playing because of that.
And, you know, there's a lot more we coulddo on that.
We need some heroic.
people to come out.
You talk about workplace not being out.
There's no more important place, I think,than in professional sports to make a
difference in society.
So I hope we'll see some more brave peopleas we have seen a few in recent years.
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Yeah, those are three great resources.
And I think as we think of folkslistening, there's this a lot of the
movements that have happened over theyears, whether it's
Me Too or whatever those movements are.
There's this idea of if you're notfamiliar, go do the work.
(28:39):
If you're not familiar, go out there andfind the information.
And I think you've just given threeresources where there are, whether it's
the Corporate Equality Index or languagingor policy around what's happening with
transgendered athletes in schools.
All those organizations have a lot ofinformation.
I'll certainly share those organizationson.
(29:00):
Club for Good social media, but Idefinitely encourage listeners to go to
those sites and sign up for newsletters.
You're gonna find a lot of informationthat'll be really invaluable as you
navigate this.
And Brian, the final question, just a funone, but I think it always gives
perspective and something I've learned asI monitor the social media for Club for
(29:20):
Good.
I post on social media the guests, theiranswer to this question.
And it is always the top,engaging and liked post, which is really
funny.
I think just people love seeing andlearning about people in our community.
So the final question is who has inspiredyou along the way?
(29:46):
And I want to ask that question in sort ofa, who might you invite to a Clout for
Good dinner party?
Are there people who you admire that youjust sounds like maybe you're a Madonna
fan.
So maybe you just have fun with, but.
Who might you, a couple of people that youmight invite to a Club for Good Dinner
party that you'd share with listeners?
(30:08):
These are people from the movement livingor no longer with us?
Yeah, yeah, either way, yep, either way.
Okay.
So the person that I've most wanted tohave dinner with and regret.
you know, never having encountered in mylife, who's no longer with us is James
(30:30):
Baldwin, who is a hero of mine in manyrespects as a civil rights crusader.
As an author who wrote, you know,Giovanni's Room was probably the most
impactful novel I've read in my life.
It was the first openly gay novel I readwhen I was in college or should say gay
(30:51):
theme novel.
And I know how hard it was for him to getthat published.
how hard it was for him to live in Americaunder such violent racism at the time that
he fled to France.
And just an amazing person how hepowerfully wrote about love.
(31:12):
So James Baldwin, I think, Billie JeanKing, who, you know, I've already
mentioned I'm a huge, huge sports fan andyou talk about courage, she came out.
So many years ago at a time when therewere I think there were no other
professional athletes who were out or hadever been out potentially.
He also did so much around genderequality, including obviously the famous
(31:36):
Bobby Riggs match, but equal pay and she'sstill fighting for all the ERA equal pay
and other sports outside of tennis whereshe already won that a true hero and.
I mean, it's so hard.
I'll just throw one more out there andI'll say Elton John.
And I'll say Elton John again, datingmyself a bit because when I was growing
(31:59):
up, there really were no role models.
And there were so few people who were out.
And like Billie Jean King, he came out ata relatively young time for us.
And he was literally one of the onlyopenly gay figures I knew of when I was
growing up.
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And it wasn't just the fact thatHe came out and that he's hugely talented,
but how he's devoted so much of his lifefor good and through client relationships.
I've had the opportunity to work with theElton John AIDS Foundation and the work he
is doing globally to try and end AIDS inhis lifetime is just extraordinary.
(32:40):
So I think, I also think all three of themwould get along and respect each other.
So I think it would be a really fun andinteresting conversation.
As much as I'd love to also have dinnerwith Madonna.
Yeah, right.
Maybe Madonna's a given.
Maybe she would be already at the club fora good dinner.
But yeah, those are great guests.
I mean, having read some James Baldwin onmy own, I certainly relate to that.
(33:03):
Billie Jean King, one of my top gueststhat I would invite as well.
And I love that Elton John invitation too,because I think he also really just
demonstrates to me, like you said, notonly being authentic, but I think, and
celebrating true difference.
whether it's through his wardrobe andstyling or just really, really, and we saw
(33:25):
through his last US concert at DodgerStadium, creating something that is just
not going to be recreated and just reallya national treasure from a music
perspective.
Well, Brian, thank you so much for whatyou do for the community.
As a fellow marketer, thank you foreverything you do for the marketing
industry and what...
that what you do at all of the companiesthat you've worked for from a
(33:49):
communications perspective.
So thank you so much for joining me today.
Thanks a lot.
It was really fun.
Yeah.
Thank you, Brian.
Well, and to my listeners, thanks forjoining today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood .com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope that this episode motivates you touse your Cloud for Good to make a
(34:12):
difference in your workplace.
Thanks for joining.
I don't think you can be effective in lifewithout being your whole self and who you
are.
And you're going to be handicappedwhatever you're doing, whether it is
athletics, whether it's communications,whether it's politics, whether it's law,
finance, whatever you're doing, if youcan't be yourself, right?
There's a part of you that's not outthere.
You're always going to be partly worriedabout being found out.
(00:24):
I think it takes away from your career inbig ways.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clop for Good is a bi -weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
(00:44):
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
workplace.
Today, I'm honored to welcome Brian Elnerto the podcast.
Brian is the president of One StrategyGroup.
a strategy and communications firm wherehe leads and manages major client
(01:06):
relationships and the firm's strategicgrowth.
He's held key leadership positions at someof the world's top communications
organizations, including WPP, BCW, andEdelman.
And he was a senior aide in theadministration of New York City Mayor
Michael Bloomberg.
Brian's a prominent leader in theoverlapping worlds of corporate public
(01:28):
affairs and purpose.
He helped shape the strategy for thepassage of the Respect of Marriage Act,
the Equal Rights Amendment, ERA, and theEquality Act, and he serves on the board
of Athlete Ally.
Brian's a native New Yorker and he livesin the city with his husband.
Brian, thanks so much for joining us andwelcome to the show.
(01:49):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Great to be here.
Yeah.
Well, let's jump in.
First of all, let's start the conversationoff.
Maybe take a few minutes and talk to meabout how you identify.
One of the things that has certainly beenimportant about the podcast is really
understanding where folks are coming from.
(02:09):
How do they identify?
And tell us a little bit about your comingout experience, either professionally or
personally or both.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Sure.
Wow.
A lot to unpack there.
So identify as a New Yorker and relevant.
First and foremost, and probably mostrelevant to this podcast, Openly Gay Man,
(02:34):
he, him, his pronouns.
In terms of coming out, I think for likemost people, it was a bit of a journey.
Personally, ironically, less soprofessionally.
I went to college at Dartmouth, which atthe time, I don't really wanna date
myself, but it was a few years ago.
(02:57):
Um, it was a tough climate, um, to beopenly gay.
There were hardly any openly gay studentson campus.
And I was closeted in college and I cameout to friends and family, um, in law
school when I started, um, dating my firstboyfriend.
(03:20):
And it was sort of interesting at the timebecause I felt, um,
I had been very political at Dartmouth,including around progressive politics,
including around LGBTQIA issues.
I was part of a movement to get ROTCremoved from campus because at the time
you couldn't serve openly in the military.
(03:43):
So I was part of that movement and morebroadly other diversity movements.
And so I was a very political person andactually thought I wouldn't come out.
in part because I was interested inpursuing a political career.
And at the time there were really no rolemodels.
When I got to law school, I went toHarvard for law school and I was in
(04:03):
Cambridge, which was a much moreprogressive place at the time.
And met, as I said, my first boyfriend.
And I sort of decided being a politicalperson that I'd be a little militant about
this and not treat my life any differentlyas if Andy had been a woman.
I was gonna be the same person in life andit was up to everyone else to sort of deal
(04:25):
with it.
I'm dating this person, I'm in love withthis person and you're gonna accept him
and you're gonna accept us or not.
So it was ironic after being closeted incollege and in law school, I came out in
my first relationship and felt verystrongly that whether it was friends or
family and ultimately the workplace, Iwouldn't be treated differently.
(04:48):
So.
One funny story that my mother retells isevidently I took her out to brunch in
Chelsea, of course, to tell her, and Idon't honestly remember this, but she
insists on it and sort of angrily told herthat I was dating Andy and that I was
bisexual like Madonna, how I came out tomy mother.
(05:12):
Which is very embarrassing today.
But obviously at the time I was a big fanof Madonna and that's how I came out to my
mother.
So, you know, as I said, I sort of feltlike it would, you know, everyone was
going to have to accept me on these termsbecause I was going to be true to myself.
So fast forward a couple years ago, acouple years and I had my first job at a
(05:34):
law firm.
It was a somewhat conservative law firmcalled White and Case in New York.
And I felt, you know, I'm going to be out,right, because I'm gay and
I'm going to be brave about this.
So they kick off for first year associateswith a retreat and we're going to a golf
(05:55):
and tennis outing and I'm getting on a busand literally everyone is dressed in khaki
pants and prepared for golf.
I'd signed up to tennis because I playedtennis.
I grew up in the East Village, never beenon a golf course or to a golf club.
And I'm looking at all of these people,many who are older and seemingly
conservative.
(06:16):
And as I said, all in pleated khaki pants,which I did not own.
And I sit down on the bus and I'm like,wow, there's literally no way I'm going to
come out in the workplace.
This is terrifying.
And a woman sits down next to me namedElaine Johnston, who was a partner at
White in Case.
(06:36):
And she was an out lesbian, partnered.
And she obviously had done her researchand knew who I was.
And she sat down next to me and we gotalong, obviously, famously.
And she became a great mentor.
And I didn't need any convincing to comeout after that bus ride to the country
(06:57):
club, because I realized something that'svery important, especially for young
people to see in the workplace, that youcould be enormously successful if you're
out and true to yourself.
And there's no more.
you know, higher pinnacle than becoming apartner at a law firm when you are at a
law firm.
And she was, and she was widely respectedand she was, she was an antitrust and, you
(07:20):
know, really tough.
And, uh, she was my first workplace mentorand, uh, I never really looked back after
that.
That is, that's really amazing.
Some of the guests on Club for Good Brianhave said in their advice.
that they would give to others, whichwe'll talk about yours later, is they've
(07:40):
often said, make sure you go find yourpeople.
They're out there, you know, find them.
And your experience was almost just theopposite.
Your people found you and made you feelcomfortable and created that.
It's really, and that is scary.
And what, tell me a little bit about whenyou were contemplating why, you know,
you've described khakis and conservativeand golf.
(08:01):
Why were you hesitant?
to come out?
What were you fearful of as you werecontemplating?
You know, I think it was about probablyfitting in.
I mean, to be fair, you know, a little bitto myself.
I mean, we're literally talking about overthe course of a bus ride.
I changed my mind.
But joking aside, I think it was I alreadyfelt, wow, I don't fit in separate and
(08:26):
apart from sexuality.
And I sort of felt this.
You know, you said my people, these don'tseem like my people.
I've never played a round of golf.
I don't own khaki pants or if they didn'thave pleats, at least at the time.
I think maybe pleats are coming back, so Idon't want to offend anyone.
(08:48):
So I think I already felt like, wow, thisis going to be a lot to gain acceptance,
much less to add to that otherdifferentiator.
And in a sense that we all have that...
you know, Gator ability to sort of pick upothers, especially back when people were
much less public, we had ways of sort offinding each other before there were apps
(09:13):
and before it was sort of everywhere,right?
And I wasn't sensing any of that on thatbus, or in the days or weeks that I had
been at the firm until then, there werenot a lot of out corporate associates back
in that day, which is why.
you know, Elaine was so important to meand so heroic in her own life.
(09:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, even recently I was readingan article, you know, still today of, of
employees, especially younger employeeswho identify as LGBT, close to half of
them still fear what coming out might doto, as you say, fitting in, might, what it
might do to their career, to theirpromotability.
(09:57):
So there still is.
even today as things have changed quite abit, there still is that fear of that.
So, and Brian, when you came out in this,your first role and you've now navigated,
as I mentioned in introducing you, lots ofreally prominent organizations, both in
(10:18):
the public and the private sector, as wellas have been a part of a lot of
significant nonprofit organizations.
Have you found times and or what are thosetimes where you feel like you've had to
sort of question, am I going to be myauthentic self?
Have you found moments throughout the spanof your career where you've had to
(10:42):
modulate who you show up as or to hideyour identity in some way as you've
navigated your career?
The truth is I really have not.
After that initial questioning on the bus,before Elaine sat next to me and sort of
fell in love with her as a mentor, Ireally haven't.
(11:04):
And maybe I've been fortunate.
The places that I've worked have beenincredibly supportive.
I've also managed to find mentorseverywhere I've worked.
And you said finding your people.
When I went to Paul Weiss, there wasWalter Rieman.
And Robbie Kaplan, who now is famouslyargued the marriage equality case before
(11:24):
the US Supreme Court.
She was a partner of Paul Weiss when I wasthere.
So I've always had mentors wherever I'vebeen.
And honestly, and that's why the numberthat you say about 50 % of employees are
not out.
I find it shocking because it's almostbeen an additive, I felt, in the
(11:45):
workplace.
And something that hasYou know, distinguished me and made me
more relevant and important to theseplaces because I have been able to speak
to different experiences and help otherpeople.
Navigate difficult workplace environmentssometimes.
(12:05):
So, look regionally, I understanddifferences, but based on most industries
in big cities, I'm still surprised bythat, which is why I think the work that
you're doing and.
is really important because that numbershould be much higher.
I mean, I'd like it to be 100 % someday,but I'm surprised it's not in the 70s, 80s
(12:26):
or 90s right now.
Yeah, it still surprises me too.
And as you said, sort of one of thereasons I wanted to have these
conversations in Start Club for Good is toshare these stories.
And not everyone has had an easy go at itand there are challenges along the way for
sure.
And...
(12:47):
You know, Brian, using your experiencefrom any part of your professional career,
one of the things, the reason that Cloutfor Good got its name is when you're out
in the workplace, the idea is you can useyour clout.
You can really make a difference.
And as you've said, with helping othersand sharing and showing up authentically,
(13:09):
give us some examples.
Talk to folks who don't know you.
I certainly know some of these examples ofhaving been able to get to know you over
the years, but when have you used yourclout for good?
When have you used your clout for good tomake a difference at a company or an
organization or for a movement?
What are some examples that you can shareof how you've used that clout for good in
(13:33):
real time?
Yeah, so I've honestly tried to make thata mission of mine wherever I've worked.
And sometimes I've...
My work has been mission driven and I cantalk about that a little bit, including in
our space.
But when I was lawyering back at PaulWeiss, I worked on a number of pro bono
cases that impacted our community,including one with Robbie Kaplan involving
(13:57):
Yeshiva University where they had a policyaround housing that excluded non -married
couples from living together and a lesbiancouple brought suit.
And of course they couldn't marry at thetime in New York or anywhere.
So I am dating myself and so, you know, wework pro bono on that case.
I also worked on another case with somecolleagues of Paul Weiss where we
(14:21):
represented an HIV positive man who wasdenied access to his HIV meds during his
pre incarceration arraignment time.
So, you know, did that work did a numberof pro bono campaigns since I've gotten
into the communications world mostrecently.
With WPP, we did a big campaign with HRC,the human rights campaign in support of
(14:46):
the Equality Act, which you mentioned.
Many people don't realize, includingpeople within our community, that despite
the fact that we have marriage equalityacross the country, we can still be
discriminated against in various facets oflife in many, many states, because many
states don't have non -discriminationlaws.
So that's why.
(15:07):
There is something called the EqualityAct, which has yet to pass Congress, but
we did a big campaign called the RealityFlag Campaign, which was HRC's, one of
HRC's most successful campaigns ever.
We also did a really fun pro bono campaignwith the mayor of New York, Eric Adams,
after DeSantis pushed the so -called don'tsay gay bill, and we put billboards all
(15:29):
over Florida, pro bono saying New YorkCity says gay, New York loves you, come to
a city where you're supported, really.
get under his skin and to sort of make apoint and bring attention to it.
So I've always tried to use my clout forgood in the public sphere, but also
internally.
One thing I'm really proud of that Ipushed for recently at WPP was to develop
(15:55):
family planning benefits for same -sexcouples because we were not eligible when
I got there for things like a surrogacybenefit.
And as many people know, it's incrediblychallenging and costly whether to pursue
adoption or surrogacy as a same sex couplewho don't have other options.
(16:17):
So we now have a benefit.
So I've always pushed internally for thosekinds of resources as well.
That's great.
That's amazing.
I mean, and I think it's great becauseyou've, you know, on the sort of...
political side and on the professionalside, you've also been able to, as you
even said, with your bio and your intro,is really mix those two together, really
(16:41):
merge them together and focus on them.
And not a lot of people get to do both ofthose things and cross over with their
professional work.
A lot of people I've learned now withquite a few episodes recorded and getting
feedback from folks who listen,A lot of folks are in that 50 % of I'm not
quite living authentically or they'requestioning whether they should come out
(17:05):
or what does it mean to be authentic?
And getting back to as you explained thatElaine had found you, what are some maybe
recommendations or tips or what would yougive as advice to someone who's
questioning, I want to be more authentic.
(17:26):
I want to come out.
I want to.
to show up differently?
What advice would you give them as theythink about that in their workplace?
Well, look, so much of it is individual.
So honestly, I'd like to give them advice,understanding their unique situations.
But I could say a few things that are alittle general.
I don't think you can be effective in lifewithout being your whole self and who you
(17:50):
are.
And you're going to be handicappedwhatever you're doing, whether it is
athletics, whether it's communications,whether it's politics, whether it's
law, finance, whatever you're doing, ifyou can't be yourself, right?
There's a part of you that's not outthere.
You're always gonna be partly worriedabout being found out.
I think it takes away from your career inbig ways.
(18:12):
Often people know anyway, and there'sissues around courage and respect and all
that other stuff that gets wrapped into.
I would say that I've only had.
Great, I know it's not the case foreveryone else, you know, for everyone and
regional differences might matter andpotentially what kind of work you're doing
(18:35):
and who you're surrounded by.
So I don't want to be glib, but I've beenreally fortunate where being out and true
to myself and also pushing for equalrights for our community and for others
have done a lot of work and a lot of civilrights work on race and done a lot of work
on women's equality.
But all of that has only helped me in mycareer and sort of a funny story, but the
(19:00):
reason I'm actually in communicationsright now almost has to do with that.
I left the mayor's office when I wasworking for Mike Bloomberg in 2011 to work
on the campaign for marriage in New York,which we famously won with a Republican
Senate.
And it was a big moment for the movementand we never lost again at before
(19:21):
legislature or a plebiscite.
And I stayed on for a little bit after wewon in New York to help build Americans
for marriage equality with the humanrights campaign.
And while I was doing that work, there wasan article in the New York Times about
Steve Schmidt who went on to found theLincoln project, but who at the time had
(19:41):
just run John McCain's campaign forpresident.
And Steve was a Republican operator beforehe left the Republican party over Trump.
And he was at Edelman.
And he was working with Anthony Romero ofthe ACLU who was leading it then and still
leads it today on strategies for bringingmore Republicans out and support a gay
(20:05):
marriage or marriage equality.
I read that Times article.
I'm like, that's what I've been trying todo for the last two years.
I need to meet this guy.
So through, you know, common friends, Ireached out to Steve and he was up for
meeting and I went down to DC and.
He was drinking me under the table atlunch, you know, martini after martini.
(20:25):
I was trying to keep up and we're talkingabout everything but marriage equality and
getting along famously.
It's a time.
Remember he's a Republican who just runMcCain's campaign and he said, you know,
you should, you should come work atEdelman.
Richard would love you.
You did the gay marriage work.
You know, you went to Dartmouth, you're alawyer.
Um, and I said to, you know, Steve, isthat even a possibility?
(20:47):
And he basically said, Oh, you don't knowthe guy who led public affairs.
He'd left a few weeks ago and, you know,fast forward a few weeks and I'm meeting
with, you know, Richard Edelman and othersenior leaders at Edelman and was hired,
you know, within weeks or a month or twoof that meeting with Steve.
So just an example where like, not justbeing openly gay was in that positive, but
the work for the movement was perceivedby.
(21:09):
You know, a straight Republican andultimately, you know, Richard Edelman, a
straight man is, you know, one of the mostprominent people in communications as big
pluses, right?
And he took a chance on me because for meit was a second or third career.
I went from law into politics withBloomberg while I had done a lot of
communications in the Bloombergadministration.
(21:31):
And of course, the marriage campaign waslargely communicated.
I wasn't classically trained in it.
I didn't grow up in an agency, but Richardhired me on the strength of those
experiences.
So I urge everyone to come out, be yourtrue authentic self and anyone who wants
to talk about it, I'm easy to find.
(21:54):
I love it.
I mean, Brian, that's such a greatexample.
I mean, to your point, it's...
I'm gonna be myself, I'm gonna beauthentic and you're rewarded for it.
And like you said, I think many people arein different financial situations or
geographical situations, corporateenvironments, and they're making different
(22:15):
decisions based on that, which as one ofmy guests said, first and foremost, make
sure you're safe and make sure you'refinancially able to.
And I think then though, once you'rebeyond that, or if you...
can get beyond that.
I think it's such a great example of, andin an unexpected way, I'm doing the right
thing.
I'm fighting for what I believe in, andit's recognized for something that could
(22:39):
be even more about, and has led you onthis career journey to now being the
president of Strategy One, which is just,which is amazing.
So I think that's a great example.
What advice, and you sort of alluded tothis maybe by some of the changes you led
at WPP, but what advice might you give,There's also a lot of folks from companies
that are allies or they work in DE &I orthey work in HR that are listeners of Clot
(23:03):
for Good.
What advice would you give to theworkplace, to companies?
What changes would you like to see or whatadvice might you give to companies that
are listening to this and thinking abouttheir LGBTQ efforts within their
workplace?
(23:23):
Sure, well, a few things.
I'd start off with a thank you.
because I think allies are incrediblyimportant.
As you mentioned at the beginning, it'swhy I was a founding board member of
Athlete Ally, which is an organizationthat's focused on ending homophobia in
sports and also using the reach ofprofessional athletes to push for equal
(23:46):
rights.
Allyship is really important.
I think this is a really big moment tohave that conversation because look,
we don't always progress.
Sometimes there are steps back inmovements.
And right now we're seeing that, right?
We're seeing significant attacks on thetransgender community across the nation.
(24:08):
We're seeing a revolt against DEI andpolicies that are focused on making
workplaces more inclusive.
And I would say to our allies, like, standup for your people and continue to do the
right thing.
Keep pushing for equal health benefits.
Support which are employee resourcegroups.
(24:28):
You don't know how important that is forsome young employees who are worried about
coming out what you just discussed the 50% number.
I mean, all allies and all of us should besort of stunned by that.
It shows how much more we need to dodespite the progress.
So, yeah, I think this is a real momentand I would say that I would also advise
(24:51):
them to really focus on your people.
I mean, some of the best responses I'veever heard to the sort of anti woke
movement right now are by leaders whobring it back to equal rights, to
workforce and protecting employees thatit's not about politics.
It's not about posing.
It's about making sure everyone who worksfor me is protected, is safe, is included,
(25:16):
belongs and has equal rights and benefits.
And I think we've seen a number of CEOsspeak out.
on that issue powerfully recently, tryingto push back against the so -called sort
of anti -woke movement.
Yeah, and I love the advice of alliesstanding up, standing beside.
And I think your example of marriageequality and your WPP work around
(25:41):
surrogacy and adoption, I think there is.
An opportunity to listen and to learn.
I think the assumption is, like you said,oh, marriage equality.
That means everything's okay.
That means everything is equal and therestill is a lot of work to do.
And to your point, with so much anti-legislation and efforts, more than ever,
(26:03):
we need allies to be standing up and to bethere beside us.
Well, two final questions, Brian.
One is...
You've been a part of so many greatorganizations, again, both professionally,
but also, I think, importantly, from anonprofit and a political perspective.
What resources, I ask this of every guest,these last two questions, but what
(26:25):
resource, or if you want to name a few,that's totally fine.
But what resources might you share withlisteners of Cloud for Good?
Like we've mentioned, maybe someonethinking of...
coming out at work, maybe an ally, and itmay be someone who's completely out at
work and running their ERG and doing somegreat work.
But what resources have you tapped into orwould you like to share with the listeners
(26:50):
of Cloud for Good?
I mean, the truth is there's so much outthere and so many good organizations doing
great work.
I've found resources at GLAD reallyhelpful, particularly around language and
inclusivity.
and combating hate speech and otherthings.
(27:11):
I think GLAD has tons of resources ontheir website.
Obviously the Human Rights Campaign, HRC,particularly the Corporate Equality Index
is a great measure to have conversationsabout equal treatment of workers in any
workplace environment.
It's a great place for resources.
(27:32):
But again, it really depends.
depends on the issue and where you'reworking.
I mean, I'll make another plug for athleteally.
I think sports is still one of the placeswhere we need to do a lot of work.
There isn't a single openly gay maleathlete right now in any of the four big
sports.
We know why that is.
There's still so much homophobia in sportat every level and too many kids aren't
(27:56):
playing because of that.
And, you know, there's a lot more we coulddo on that.
We need some heroic.
people to come out.
You talk about workplace not being out.
There's no more important place, I think,than in professional sports to make a
difference in society.
So I hope we'll see some more brave peopleas we have seen a few in recent years.
(28:18):
Yeah, those are three great resources.
And I think as we think of folkslistening, there's this a lot of the
movements that have happened over theyears, whether it's
Me Too or whatever those movements are.
There's this idea of if you're notfamiliar, go do the work.
(28:39):
If you're not familiar, go out there andfind the information.
And I think you've just given threeresources where there are, whether it's
the Corporate Equality Index or languagingor policy around what's happening with
transgendered athletes in schools.
All those organizations have a lot ofinformation.
I'll certainly share those organizationson.
(29:00):
Club for Good social media, but Idefinitely encourage listeners to go to
those sites and sign up for newsletters.
You're gonna find a lot of informationthat'll be really invaluable as you
navigate this.
And Brian, the final question, just a funone, but I think it always gives
perspective and something I've learned asI monitor the social media for Club for
(29:20):
Good.
I post on social media the guests, theiranswer to this question.
And it is always the top,engaging and liked post, which is really
funny.
I think just people love seeing andlearning about people in our community.
So the final question is who has inspiredyou along the way?
(29:46):
And I want to ask that question in sort ofa, who might you invite to a Clout for
Good dinner party?
Are there people who you admire that youjust sounds like maybe you're a Madonna
fan.
So maybe you just have fun with, but.
Who might you, a couple of people that youmight invite to a Club for Good Dinner
party that you'd share with listeners?
(30:08):
These are people from the movement livingor no longer with us?
Yeah, yeah, either way, yep, either way.
Okay.
So the person that I've most wanted tohave dinner with and regret.
you know, never having encountered in mylife, who's no longer with us is James
(30:30):
Baldwin, who is a hero of mine in manyrespects as a civil rights crusader.
As an author who wrote, you know,Giovanni's Room was probably the most
impactful novel I've read in my life.
It was the first openly gay novel I readwhen I was in college or should say gay
(30:51):
theme novel.
And I know how hard it was for him to getthat published.
how hard it was for him to live in Americaunder such violent racism at the time that
he fled to France.
And just an amazing person how hepowerfully wrote about love.
(31:12):
So James Baldwin, I think, Billie JeanKing, who, you know, I've already
mentioned I'm a huge, huge sports fan andyou talk about courage, she came out.
So many years ago at a time when therewere I think there were no other
professional athletes who were out or hadever been out potentially.
He also did so much around genderequality, including obviously the famous
(31:36):
Bobby Riggs match, but equal pay and she'sstill fighting for all the ERA equal pay
and other sports outside of tennis whereshe already won that a true hero and.
I mean, it's so hard.
I'll just throw one more out there andI'll say Elton John.
And I'll say Elton John again, datingmyself a bit because when I was growing
(31:59):
up, there really were no role models.
And there were so few people who were out.
And like Billie Jean King, he came out ata relatively young time for us.
And he was literally one of the onlyopenly gay figures I knew of when I was
growing up.
(32:19):
And it wasn't just the fact thatHe came out and that he's hugely talented,
but how he's devoted so much of his lifefor good and through client relationships.
I've had the opportunity to work with theElton John AIDS Foundation and the work he
is doing globally to try and end AIDS inhis lifetime is just extraordinary.
(32:40):
So I think, I also think all three of themwould get along and respect each other.
So I think it would be a really fun andinteresting conversation.
As much as I'd love to also have dinnerwith Madonna.
Yeah, right.
Maybe Madonna's a given.
Maybe she would be already at the club fora good dinner.
But yeah, those are great guests.
I mean, having read some James Baldwin onmy own, I certainly relate to that.
(33:03):
Billie Jean King, one of my top gueststhat I would invite as well.
And I love that Elton John invitation too,because I think he also really just
demonstrates to me, like you said, notonly being authentic, but I think, and
celebrating true difference.
whether it's through his wardrobe andstyling or just really, really, and we saw
(33:25):
through his last US concert at DodgerStadium, creating something that is just
not going to be recreated and just reallya national treasure from a music
perspective.
Well, Brian, thank you so much for whatyou do for the community.
As a fellow marketer, thank you foreverything you do for the marketing
industry and what...
that what you do at all of the companiesthat you've worked for from a
(33:49):
communications perspective.
So thank you so much for joining me today.
Thanks a lot.
It was really fun.
Yeah.
Thank you, Brian.
Well, and to my listeners, thanks forjoining today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social media and visitcloudforgood .com to subscribe to our
newsletter.
I hope that this episode motivates you touse your Cloud for Good to make a
(34:12):
difference in your workplace.
Thanks for joining.
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