Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
To be an inspiration for peopleto not fear themselves in
the world, I think is somethingthat I'm very, very proud of.
I hear from people frequently,you know, you were the first
person I ever saw who waslike me, and you gave
me the courage.
Even though we never met.
You gave me the courageto move forward on my journey.
(00:25):
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
(00:47):
Today, I'm honored to welcomeJameson Greene to
Klout for good.
Jamison was born in Oakland,California, and he always knew
he would be a writer,a career goal that led
to many adventures.
He earned his MFAin Creative Writing from the
University of Oregon.
He transitioned medically andlegally from female to male,
from 1988 to 1991 while workingat Sun Microsystems and went on
(01:12):
to work for Visa, where we metand where he was the director
of technical publications.
He's published numerousarticles and books on many
aspects of transgenderedhealth and rights.
And finally, he's the author ofan award winning memoir called
Becoming a Visible Man.
Jameson and I led the VisaLgbtq+ ERG Employee Resource
(01:34):
Group while we worktogether at Visa.
And it's great to seeyou again, Jamison.
Thanks for joining.
Thank you, David.
It's a pleasure to bewith you again.
Yeah.
So listen, I wanted to start asI mentioned, Jamison has a
award winning book that'sout there, and I wanted to
start by reading an excerptfrom his book,
(01:56):
Becoming a Visible Man.
In the book, you say, Don't beafraid to be yourself or let
others be themselves.
Just don't hurt yourself oranyone else in the process.
Life's too valuable agift to waste on anything
less than kindness.
I love.
I love this sentiment.
I love this.
This quote from from your book.
(02:17):
Can you start by telling us abit more about your journey to
be more authentic yourself,both personally and the
workplace?
Sure.
It starts it starts wayback in kindergarten.
I knew I was different fromboth the other girls and the
(02:39):
other boys, but I didn't knowhow or any words to put on it.
I just knew that Iwas not like them and.
I just.
I just.
But I just.
Well, I have to say, I had twowonderful parents who adopted
(03:01):
me at the age of onemonth and had no idea what
they were getting.
And they gave meunconditional love, which I
know is a tremendous foundationfor my ability to express
myself and to to actin the world.
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And even though they were upsetabout a lot of things that I
did and ways that I addressedand ideas that I
had sometimes, and my fatheralways said, you can't
fight city Hall.
And I said, oh, yeah, butbut, you know, we just
(03:42):
I just I had that foundation,even though it wasn't 100%,
you know, hearts and flowers,I in the workplace,
I had odd jobs untilI got out of college.
Nothing wasever really meaningful.
(04:04):
And I got out of collegeand I with my MFA and creative
writing and I could notfind a job.
It was 1972.
There was a recession going on.
I couldn't even get ajob in a gas station.
And I mean, it was itwas really, really difficult.
And finally I walkedinto the telephone company and
(04:30):
there I was.
And, you know, I had afemale body, although people
couldn't tell that I was a girl,a lot of times I was
wearing jeans and an armyjacket and I said, hi, Do you
need anywriters or photographers?
And, you know, I can Ican do anything really.
(04:51):
And they said, Do you think youcould climb a telephone pole
and and lift a manhole cover?
And I said, Isaid I could do anything.
And so I went through theirbattery of tests later.
Much later, I found out theywere under a consent decree to
hire women and minoritiesin non-traditional jobs.
And I just happened to be thefirst female bodied person to
(05:16):
be hired as aconstruction cable splicer.
And this was inPacific Northwest Bell.
They already used women ascable splicers in cities
like New York.
But in those places,cable Splicer was it was like
walking to an office andwalking into a giant room where
(05:38):
there were splices everywhere.
And you just sat down at asplice and and connected wires
out in Oregon where I was,it was it was rough.
And and you had to carry giantnitrogen tanks into woods and
place them somewhereand you had to
(06:01):
be on a telephone polethat was leaning over a river.
You know, you had to climb allthe way up there with
all your tools.
And and it was itwas a very, very difficult job.
And they never thought I wouldactually handle it because I
was so small.
But I was they you know,they put me through
(06:22):
the training program.
And I think what they weretrying to do, frankly, was make
was prove that they couldn'tfind any women
who could qualify.
And they admitted that I wasone of the I was one of the
best climbers they had everseen in the line school.
Andand then they offered me a job
(06:43):
as a janitor building janitor.
And I said, look, I don't knowwhat a cable splicer is, but I
do know what a janitor is.
So I probably didn't go tocollege for six years to become
a cable splicer, but I signedup to do it.
(07:04):
I qualified.
I passed your training programand I'm going to be
a cable splicer.
They said, okay,So it was it's this sort of,
you know, look, I said it,I'm going to do it,
you know, kind of attitude.
I'm showing up.
(07:25):
And that, I think, was wassomething that carried me
through much of myvery diverse career.
And, you know, it was toughbecause I got a lot of
ribbing from guys.
And, you know, I justI just handled it very coolly.
(07:46):
You know, at one point,I was critiqued for taking a
job that.
Some man might be ableto have to feed his family.
And I said, Oh, what makes youthink I don't have a family to
feed?
And they they were kindof like, Oh,
of course they didn't.
But, you know,I always I always try to
(08:06):
stay calm, relaxed in the faceof a challenge and suss out
where there are access pointsto make change.
Well.
And Jamieson, as you then movedinto utilising your writing
(08:28):
skills and progressing fromsplicing into the corporate
sort of technology world.
How did that howdid that change?
Were the experiencesany different or.
And at the time I also know youwere going through
your transition, so thereprobably were a lot of other
things happening in addition.
How did that change as you thenmoved into a more corporate
(08:49):
world?
As I went intothe corporate world.
I couldn't figure outwhat to wear.
I really wanted to wear jeansand flannel shirts and work
boots and stuff, but I couldn'tin a corporate environment.
So I basically just found akind of clothing style that I
(09:11):
could live with,which was slacks,
men's slacks and, you know,just a shirt, regular old
Oxford kind of shirt.
And sometimes I'd wear a vestor I'd wear a blazer, and I
tried to buy blazersin women's department.
I was afraid to shop in themen's department for too many
(09:36):
articles of clothing.
Pants was one thing, but.
But any almost anything elsekind of scared me a little bit
because I was I was afraidpeople would judge me, but I
couldn't be any differentthan I was.
So I was just tryingto figure all that out.
It was very, very confusing.
(09:59):
But I carried myself intointerviews and into work
situations just by knowing thatI could do the job.
It's just it was alwaysabout the job.
It was never about me.
And so I know.
Look at me, you can look at me.
But, you know, I know I don'tfit your ideas about what a
(10:21):
woman should be and certainlynot what a man should be.
But look, I'm.
I'm here to dothe job, and I can.
I can do it.
Let me show you.
And building relationships andthat basis moved me pretty
rapidly once I got into acorporation up the food chain.
(10:45):
Just beingcompetent was important.
And, you know, I, I rememberafter I'd worked at a medical
device manufacturing company astheir only writer for a year at
the Christmas party, the the,the HR director got a little
(11:07):
bit tipsy and she told me thatwhen I came in to interview for
that job, she could not tellwhether I was a man or a woman.
And so she kept asking mequestions that would elicit me
saying something about whetherI was male or female.
And I never did.
(11:28):
And she so but butshe liked me so much.
She gave me the job.
So, you know, it's.
Just well, luckily and andluckily to her,
that didn't matter.
Right.
And I.
Right, right.
Exactly.
Well, and you know, one of theone of the reasons I started
(11:50):
Klout for good was I get a lotof the same questions from
trans and queer employees thatI asked myself 25 years ago.
And and I in your inyour work, you referenced this
same thing and you stated thatfar too many people still
believe there's no informationto be found about transgendered
(12:13):
lives and and that you continueto feel the same questions.
Why?
Why do we think aswe've progressed, as we've as
the workplace has changed aspolicy and as as a lot of
different components of ourworkplaces change, Why do we
think it's it's still thereof an example.
I was speaking somewhererecently and a queer identified,
(12:34):
identified employee came up,came to me after and said,
So do you talk about what youand your partner did in your
C-suite meetings on Mondaymorning?
Do you really say whatyou two did over the weekend?
And so it just isa real lightbulb.
It's a real aha moment for meof we're still in many ways in
the same place because Iremember thinking and asking
(12:56):
some of those same questions,Why do you think that still is?
Well, look at the backlashwe're getting right now.
I mean, once once same sexmarriage was made legal,
the opposition has dug theirheels in deeply.
And they're they're makingit really, really hard for a
(13:19):
lot of people.
And so I think.
It hasn't changed all that muchbecause we're still suffering
from the same prejudices,the same mythology and the same
fears that people have whenthey don't know anybody who is
Lgbtq+ and or they simply havewritten us off already.
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They aren't going to.
They don't care about knowingus at all.
So that's that's a barrier thatstill has to be
broken down completely.
And the people who have themost power in driving the the
backlash that's going onnow isolate themselves.
They would never put themselvesin a situation where they would
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get to know somebody theydon't want to.
I mean, look at the legislatorswho are in these sessions where
they're doing hearings forthese horrible bills that they
just won't listen.
They just say, no, thank youvery much for coming in.
We're done with you.
We don't want tohear any more from you.
I still think we canbeat it back.
(14:24):
I still think wecan overcome this.
But it's by being present anddemonstrating who we are and
demonstrating that we are notanything to be feared.
We are not going to be hurtingthem the way they want
to hurt us.
We're not taking anythingaway from them.
(14:45):
Yeah, and I think youbring up such a good point.
With over 500 different typesof bills and legislation that
are very specifically over thelast year or so, anti-trans,
very specifically antiqueer in general.
It's it's pretty overwhelming.
And I know in your abstractthat I read Unbending The Light.
(15:09):
You describe your workwith the San Francisco Human
Rights Commission, the HumanRights Campaign and the
Corporate Equality Index andthe World Professional
Association of TransgenderedHealth to create critically
needed transgender,inclusive health
and workplace benefits.
So just this pioneer andsomeone we can all be very
(15:31):
thankful for, for this work ofon the sort of policy side and
on on the governmental sidereally making monumental is is
a word that should be attachedto it work and you know so
thank you for that,first of all.
And you know, I guess onequestion is we're talking
(15:53):
about this, you know,not to fear us.
And but it looks like from yourexperience really working with
that outside of corporate worldto make policy change that's
lasting and impactful, what canemployees do and what can
companies do to make changewithin the workplace?
(16:13):
And how did you or have younavigated the workplace side of
that to advocate for change?
Absolutely.
Back in the early 90s,I realized that there was so
little awareness of who transpeople were that I decided I
was going to start offeringgender diversity trainings or
(16:36):
gender diversity education,and specifically in
the workplace, because transpeople often had difficulty
finding jobs or stayingemployed because
of prejudice predominantly.
So I started I had I had flyersthat I produced that basically
(16:59):
said this is a problem.
If you think as an HR directoryou have never faced this,
I can assure you youwill face it.
You you may actually alreadyhave transgender employees
working at your company and youjust don't know it.
And if you if you don't thinkyou have some, trust me,
(17:20):
you're going to have some.
And and I did quitea bit of this work.
I did a program at Macy's for aseries of brochures explaining
what to do when you can't tellwhat somebody's sex is or you
think that they're not whothey should be.
(17:42):
If you're a salesperson,if you're a manager and how to
treat customers, Itwas very, very successful.
And after I did that and Idid it, it was it was the
head office, corporate officein Cincinnati that contacted me
to develop this for them.
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And after that, in the SanFrancisco store, trans women
who often are extremely skilledat applying makeup, you would
you began to see trans womenworking at the cosmetic counter
in Macy's in downtown San.
Cisco.
And, you know, that's that'sa great thing.
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And whether the whether thecustomers knew they were
transgender or not,I have no idea.
And then eventually I startedseeing I would walk into like a
Starbucks or a Peet's coffeeand a trans worker would say
they would recognize me andthey'd I'd order my coffee and
they would say,It's on the house.
(18:49):
And there was I thought thatwas so sweet because I
recognized them as trans people.
I'd never met them.
But and I don't know how theyrecognized me, but they did.
And I was reallyflattered by that.
I love it.
I love it.
You know, one of the otherthings that the listeners of
(19:11):
Klout for good, one of thethings that I talk a lot about
is working to be yourmost authentic self.
As as you've talked a littlebit about your journey and,
you know, you even mentioned insome of your work that
visibility is is important.
And certainly it is, you know,if you can see it and maybe
it's at leastbuilding conversations,
(19:32):
opening the door,driving awareness and
then creating solutions.
But many folks inthe workplace, those who are
maybe thinking I'd like to bemore authentically myself,
a younger trans employee,a younger queer employee,
or someone who's in the closetand hasn't felt comfortable
being able to bring theirmore authentic self.
(19:52):
What What advice would you giveto folks who are trying to show
up more authentically and do itsafely and do it in a way that
works for them?
What advice wouldyou give to folks?
It's it's reallyabout building relationships.
It's the first thing you haveto do in the workplace is show
up for the work.
(20:12):
You have to demonstrate thatyou are capable, that you're a
team player, that you'recompetent, that you
can produce, that you whateverit is that you are assigned to
produce it, you can do it andyou do it cheerfully and
competently and withconsideration
(20:35):
for your coworkers.
And you engage, you engage.
And that's how you break downthe barriers and don't make
it about you.
Don't make itabout your difference.
Don't always come from aplace of, you know, lack or
intimidation.
(20:56):
Get that you'reintimidated by them.
I'll always come from a placethat says, I'm here, I'm here
to do the job.
Let's work.
Let's work together.
And that will help to breakdown those barriers because
people know you're different.
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They can figure that out.
They just don't know how andthey don't know what that is.
And then and then you you showthem that you're a human being
and and you identifywith their issues.
You know, ask themabout their problems.
Don't tell them about yoursunless they ask.
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And then but make sure you'reon a level playing field in
that kind of acontext if you possibly can.
And and then, you know,you gradually you say, well,
you know, they saw that theysaw Ellen on TV.
You know, mean when when Eloncame out on TV, that was a big
(22:01):
deal for a lot of people.
And people were always in thosedays standing around the
water cooler, which, you know,we don't have those anymore.
Talking about what they watchedon TV last night when Elon came
out on TV, it was like, whoa,I can't imagine knowing
somebody who's gay.
And and you say, Oh, well,you already do really.
(22:24):
You probably know morethan you think.
For instance, there's me youcould say, you know,
And they go, Oh,because they already like you.
They already trust you.
That's what breaks things down.
And that's why coming out on a1 to 1 basis, why it's why it
takes so long to create thiscultural change is because we
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have to change hearts and mindsone at a time and nobody
likes that anymore.
They want to put something onInstagram and move on, you know?
But that's not going to changethe world in that sense.
It's not going tohearts and minds.
And Jamison, I like what you'resaying about show up and
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do your work.
You're you're hired todo that, first and foremost.
I think that'sreally good advice.
And it reminds me of when my myown coming out experience from
rural Michigan and onceI came out.
To your point of also sort ofchanging hearts and minds
one by one.
You know, once everyone in mysmall community found out that
(23:31):
I was identifying as gay,many people would say, well,
that's okay.
I know David.
I like David.
He's a good person,nice guy, whatever it was.
And that's okay with me.
And I think to your point,that really can translate
in the workplace.
It's, you know,Jamison's a great colleague,
does great work.
(23:51):
I really enjoy working with himand therefore that's okay
with me,hopefully is the response.
And also, you know, itmay to your point, spark a
conversation of sharing andunderstanding and, and getting
to know each other better,which I think is,
is really important.
Um, one thing I wanted tolisten as I, you know,
(24:11):
we work together.
As I had mentioned at Visa,and we had the privilege of of
running ouremployee resource group.
And I think we learned a lot ofthings from that experience.
I know for me, on this topic oftelling your story, you know,
queer employees and transemployees are
looking for community.
As you said, maybe people don'tknow who is or is not,
(24:33):
and you're lookingfor for community.
And what what importance didcommunity within the trans and
queer communitywithin your workplace.
What what did that mean to you?
Is that something that washelpful for you in the workplace
?
And should others sort of seekthat out as well?
Well, I think it's a good thingwhat it meant to me at Visa
(24:56):
in particular, which was thefirst place I worked,
that actually had an employeeresource group focused
on LGBT individuals.
What?
I didn't actually.
I was told about thegroup and, and I was encouraged
(25:16):
to come to the meetings and Ididn't want to at first because
I just I don't need that,you know, I'm just here to
do my job.
Exactly.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, oh, this is actuallygreat because we can look at
some of the issues that aregoing on in the workplace that
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are barriers to people like us.
So we may have theskills to have gotten over
those barriers,but others don't.
And we need to make room formore people always wherever we
wherever we are.
And so learning to worktogether on issues that are
community building and I hadalready done this in outside of
(26:03):
the workplace a lot in thetrans world because I inherited
a group, a support group fortrans men in 1991 when its
founder passed away fromcomplications of HIV.
Um, so I, I had brought mymanagement skills to that
(26:27):
task actually, to encouragepeople to work together,
to encourage people to growcommunity rather than just find
the information they wanted andthen run away.
But to be there to help thenext person who was going to
come in with thesame questions that you had.
(26:48):
So, you know, we built a very,very large global community out
of this tiny little supportgroup in San Francisco.
And so I was and that's how Igot involved with this city
laws and stuff.
And I actually wrote the thefirst nondiscrimination law
that for the city of SanFrancisco that included gender
(27:10):
identity and expression as aprotected category of
human humanness, that peopleshouldn't be discriminated for.
So discriminated againstfor awkward sentence.
But sorry but you knowwhat I mean.
So so they're in the workplaceto finally have a group of
(27:33):
people that were actuallysharing the same concerns and
bringing our diverse skillsfrom the workplace into that
space was really abreath of fresh air ultimately.
And it was, of course,great working with you, David.
And, you know, we were able tobring in corporate sponsors,
(27:56):
you know, bring in theexecutives who really had the
clout to do what we needed themto do, but we had to give them
the tools to exercise theirclout with in ways that would
be beneficial for not just usas individuals, but for a much
(28:19):
wider swath ofthe workplace population.
I remember the fightfor same sex benefits,
domestic partner benefitsback in the 80s.
That was a real big change inthe workplace and it benefited
(28:41):
not just Lgbtq+ people,but anyone who chose for some
reason to be in adomestic partnership, but not
in not import thebenefits of marriage.
And there were plenty ofstraight couples who did that.
And, you know, when when peopleget older, there are tax
(29:03):
benefits to not being married.
So, I mean, it's so a lot of,you know, couples who get
together in the in thesenior center, they're they
they don't want to getmarried necessarily, but they
do want to be economicallyjoined and domestic
partnership helps them.
So it's you know, the thingsthat matter to us can matter to
(29:29):
people outside ofour social circles.
And we have to findways that to frame things,
to frame arguments, to framethe concepts of equality,
that let people know thatthey're not being something's
not being taken away from them.
They're not going to benegatively impacted by this.
(29:51):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of that workwe did together there and that
we've continued todo after Visa.
You know, you're right.
I think, as you said, to notfear what you don't know,
but also to be a part of likeyou said, I remember really
distinctly as you brought thatup sitting and we would have
those conversations with withleaders up to the CEO of
(30:14):
Visa saying, here's whythis is important.
Here's what thisthis audience, this group of
employees that you have,these are needs that they have.
And, you know, and it was Iremember also as you bring
up domestic, you know,health care benefits or you
bring up covering transition aspart of health care, there were
(30:35):
price tags that hadto be discussed.
And you know that in creatingequity through even in
some cases, the employerneeding to invest more.
But that's what they needed todo to support their
full employee community.
So it was it was really anamazing time to be able to be a
part of a lot of that.
And I think, as we've said,there are still things that are
(30:56):
on the table, especially withall of this sort of anti-trans
and queer legislation andpolicy has been happening.
Well, one thing I'm interestedin is, as I have gotten to know
you more, which has been areally amazing privilege, is,
you know, I read your book,I read your abstract.
(31:16):
I kind of poke around and learnmore about you and stemming
from your own personal journeyand staying on track with that
and being true to yourself tohelping write policy that has
helped our community to writinga book that quite frankly seems
like it probably was a fewyears earlier than everyone was
(31:38):
ready to digest it.
And now, as you're asked tocome back and hey, this now
book is picked up again,we'd like you to do audio and
we'd like to do other things.
You know, being sucha trailblazer, really, I think
is what this kind ofalludes to is.
I'm curious from you, what isyour what's your legacy or what
are you most proud ofas you look back now?
(32:00):
And there's lots more to come,I know you'll continue to do
things that are impactful,but as you look at it
right now, what are you mostproud of in your journey?
Oh, my gosh, Most proud.
You know, a lot of it's aboutabout encouraging people to be
visible and be themselves andnot be afraid.
(32:21):
I think that's to to be aninspiration for people to not
fear themselves in the world,I think is something that
I'm very, very proud of.
I hear from people frequently,you know, you were the first
person I ever saw who waslike me, and you gave
me the courage.
(32:41):
Even though we never met.
You gave me the courageto move forward on my journey.
And that's a that'sa it's a privilege and
a responsibility.
And I, I am honored by thegratitude that I receive,
even though I've never metpeople who are doing living
(33:02):
their lives this way.
I recently was at a meeting inMontreal and, and two two young
men from, uh, from New Zealandcame and they, they brought
their copy of my book and theywanted me to sign it.
(33:24):
And they, it brought mea little present.
Actually, it was a littlerepresentation of a, of a, of a
little God type figure from theindigenous people there.
And you know, they werejust so grateful.
And, you know, Icould give them a hug.
(33:46):
And, you know, it was like thebest thing that ever happened.
And, you know, it's not I'm nottrying to be I'm not trying to
have a swelled head over this.
I just I feel so privileged tobe able to touch people from
all over the world.
And another another young manfrom Ireland came and said,
(34:06):
we I run a group for transpeople in Ireland and everyone
has to read your book.
And I'm like, Wow, I love it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You know, I love it.
More hugs and, you know,more encouragement for him,
you know, And it's just it'ssuch a privilege to be able to
(34:28):
give that to people.
And and, you know,I'm just grateful that I
have that ability.
That's that's great.
That's awesome.
And one final question for you.
So, you know, we're it's reallyas we just talked about,
influencing others.
(34:49):
And I no doubt know that peoplewho listen to this conversation
will learn more about you andyour work and will feel
inspired from theconversation as well.
But who along your journeyinspired you is where I'd like
to go next.
So you, if you are,as you've said, sort of
thinking about using your cloud,if you're having a
(35:10):
Klout for good dinner party andyou're gonna invite 2 or 3
trans or queer icons that,you know, I think people would
want to know who who's inspiredyou along the way.
Who would you invite to thatdinner party and why?
Well, I have to I have to startwith James Baldwin because he
(35:30):
was a creative genius and atrailblazer in so many ways.
He's just as a writer,you know, he's definitely been
an inspiration to meand on very different lines.
Doris Fish, do youknow who Doris Fish was?
(35:51):
I don't know.
Doris Fish was an iconic dragqueen in San Francisco.
She made an incredible film,which I hope everyone someday
will be able to see if it evergets properly restored.
Vegas in space.
It's a it's hysterical.
And and she wasa creative genius.
(36:16):
She was so talentedand so vivacious and so
artistic and creative.
She was just amazing.
And there's a great book abouther and the rise of drag
that's available now.
It just came out inthe last year.
It's called Who DoesThat Bitch Thinks She Is?
(36:40):
Doris Fish and the Rise of Drag.
It's really informative aboutSan Francisco in in the 60s,
70s and 80s and thethe impact of Aids HIV.
It's a brilliantly written bookby Craig Seligman.
Doris Fish is somebody that youwould not want to miss having
(37:02):
at your at your dinner.
She was she was wild.
She was wild.
And I, I actuallynever met Doris in person.
I saw her quite a bit.
And I know other people who didknow her well and who are
still alive today.
Butyeah, yeah, she was she would
be one and and another would beLou Sullivan, who was the young
(37:26):
guy who died and left me hislittle support group and who
sort of gave me opened the doorfor me to, to do
the global work that I've done.
And I don't know what I wouldhave done if I hadn't
(37:47):
ended up there.
But it was it wasn't like Iwanted to do what he asked
me to do.
But I promised him a weekbefore he died that I would I
would do what he asked me to do.
And.
And so I did.
And the rest is history.
But Lou Sullivan also was acreative genius on his own.
(38:10):
He was the first gayidentified trans man.
The medical establishmentbelieved that you could not be
gay and trans at thesame time, that there was no
such thing as agay trans person.
And we all knowthat to be not true.
(38:30):
But Lou was the one who wentout and had dialogues with some
of the leading psychiatrists inthe fields of studying gender
and convincing them that sexualorientation and gender identity
are two different things andeverybody has them and they can
(38:54):
be mix and match.
They're not There's no directline that says because you have
a male body, you're alwaysgoing to be attracted to women.
And just because you hadstarted with a female body and
want to be a man and need thismedical assistance to do this,
(39:15):
that doesn't mean that you aregoing to be attracted to women
in a men's body.
Well, I want to beinvited to the dinner party,
that's for sure.
That sounds that sounds amazing.
Well, yeah.
Doris will blow you away.
Jamison.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Jamison, you know, I.
It's been.
I feel like one of the thingsthat that is amazing about our
(39:37):
conversation is, you know, I didit for good so that
people could hear stories andunderstand journeys and get
advice from folks who havealready taken steps to become
their authentic self.
And, you know, as I knew you atVisa and now what I've gotten
to know along the way,it's been such an honor and I'm
so impressed with the more allthat I continue to
(39:59):
learn about you.
So thank you verymuch for all you've done.
You are a visible man and youare seeing for those of you
that want to get a copy ofJamison's book Becoming a
Visible Man, visit JamesonGreen to learn more about where
you can purchase and download.
And there's evena discussion guide.
You could have that discussionguide for your group or for
(40:21):
your book club or for whateveryou'd like to use.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining us today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on Socialand visit Klout for good.
To subscribe toyour newsletter, I hope this
episode gives you themotivation to use your own
clout for good tomake a difference.
Jamieson Thank you somuch for joining me today.
(40:44):
Thank you, David.
Appreciate whatyou're doing here.
Thank you so much.
We?
Don't.
To be an inspiration for peopleto not fear themselves in
the world, I think is somethingthat I'm very, very proud of.
I hear from people frequently,you know, you were the first
person I ever saw who waslike me, and you gave
me the courage.
Even though we never met.
You gave me the courageto move forward on my journey.
(00:25):
Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weeklypodcast that showcases personal
and powerful conversations withprominent Lgbtq+ executives who
are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant tocreate a supportive community
to inspire Lgbtq+ people,their employers and allies to
build equity and inclusionin the workplace.
(00:47):
Today, I'm honored to welcomeJameson Greene to
Klout for good.
Jamison was born in Oakland,California, and he always knew
he would be a writer,a career goal that led
to many adventures.
He earned his MFAin Creative Writing from the
University of Oregon.
He transitioned medically andlegally from female to male,
from 1988 to 1991 while workingat Sun Microsystems and went on
(01:12):
to work for Visa, where we metand where he was the director
of technical publications.
He's published numerousarticles and books on many
aspects of transgenderedhealth and rights.
And finally, he's the author ofan award winning memoir called
Becoming a Visible Man.
Jameson and I led the VisaLgbtq+ ERG Employee Resource
(01:34):
Group while we worktogether at Visa.
And it's great to seeyou again, Jamison.
Thanks for joining.
Thank you, David.
It's a pleasure to bewith you again.
Yeah.
So listen, I wanted to start asI mentioned, Jamison has a
award winning book that'sout there, and I wanted to
start by reading an excerptfrom his book,
(01:56):
Becoming a Visible Man.
In the book, you say, Don't beafraid to be yourself or let
others be themselves.
Just don't hurt yourself oranyone else in the process.
Life's too valuable agift to waste on anything
less than kindness.
I love.
I love this sentiment.
I love this.
This quote from from your book.
(02:17):
Can you start by telling us abit more about your journey to
be more authentic yourself,both personally and the
workplace?
Sure.
It starts it starts wayback in kindergarten.
I knew I was different fromboth the other girls and the
(02:39):
other boys, but I didn't knowhow or any words to put on it.
I just knew that Iwas not like them and.
I just.
I just.
But I just.
Well, I have to say, I had twowonderful parents who adopted
(03:01):
me at the age of onemonth and had no idea what
they were getting.
And they gave meunconditional love, which I
know is a tremendous foundationfor my ability to express
myself and to to actin the world.
(03:22):
And even though they were upsetabout a lot of things that I
did and ways that I addressedand ideas that I
had sometimes, and my fatheralways said, you can't
fight city Hall.
And I said, oh, yeah, butbut, you know, we just
(03:42):
I just I had that foundation,even though it wasn't 100%,
you know, hearts and flowers,I in the workplace,
I had odd jobs untilI got out of college.
Nothing wasever really meaningful.
(04:04):
And I got out of collegeand I with my MFA and creative
writing and I could notfind a job.
It was 1972.
There was a recession going on.
I couldn't even get ajob in a gas station.
And I mean, it was itwas really, really difficult.
And finally I walkedinto the telephone company and
(04:30):
there I was.
And, you know, I had afemale body, although people
couldn't tell that I was a girl,a lot of times I was
wearing jeans and an armyjacket and I said, hi, Do you
need anywriters or photographers?
And, you know, I can Ican do anything really.
(04:51):
And they said, Do you think youcould climb a telephone pole
and and lift a manhole cover?
And I said, Isaid I could do anything.
And so I went through theirbattery of tests later.
Much later, I found out theywere under a consent decree to
hire women and minoritiesin non-traditional jobs.
And I just happened to be thefirst female bodied person to
(05:16):
be hired as aconstruction cable splicer.
And this was inPacific Northwest Bell.
They already used women ascable splicers in cities
like New York.
But in those places,cable Splicer was it was like
walking to an office andwalking into a giant room where
(05:38):
there were splices everywhere.
And you just sat down at asplice and and connected wires
out in Oregon where I was,it was it was rough.
And and you had to carry giantnitrogen tanks into woods and
place them somewhereand you had to
(06:01):
be on a telephone polethat was leaning over a river.
You know, you had to climb allthe way up there with
all your tools.
And and it was itwas a very, very difficult job.
And they never thought I wouldactually handle it because I
was so small.
But I was they you know,they put me through
(06:22):
the training program.
And I think what they weretrying to do, frankly, was make
was prove that they couldn'tfind any women
who could qualify.
And they admitted that I wasone of the I was one of the
best climbers they had everseen in the line school.
Andand then they offered me a job
(06:43):
as a janitor building janitor.
And I said, look, I don't knowwhat a cable splicer is, but I
do know what a janitor is.
So I probably didn't go tocollege for six years to become
a cable splicer, but I signedup to do it.
(07:04):
I qualified.
I passed your training programand I'm going to be
a cable splicer.
They said, okay,So it was it's this sort of,
you know, look, I said it,I'm going to do it,
you know, kind of attitude.
I'm showing up.
(07:25):
And that, I think, was wassomething that carried me
through much of myvery diverse career.
And, you know, it was toughbecause I got a lot of
ribbing from guys.
And, you know, I justI just handled it very coolly.
(07:46):
You know, at one point,I was critiqued for taking a
job that.
Some man might be ableto have to feed his family.
And I said, Oh, what makes youthink I don't have a family to
feed?
And they they were kindof like, Oh,
of course they didn't.
But, you know,I always I always try to
(08:06):
stay calm, relaxed in the faceof a challenge and suss out
where there are access pointsto make change.
Well.
And Jamieson, as you then movedinto utilising your writing
(08:28):
skills and progressing fromsplicing into the corporate
sort of technology world.
How did that howdid that change?
Were the experiencesany different or.
And at the time I also know youwere going through
your transition, so thereprobably were a lot of other
things happening in addition.
How did that change as you thenmoved into a more corporate
(08:49):
world?
As I went intothe corporate world.
I couldn't figure outwhat to wear.
I really wanted to wear jeansand flannel shirts and work
boots and stuff, but I couldn'tin a corporate environment.
So I basically just found akind of clothing style that I
(09:11):
could live with,which was slacks,
men's slacks and, you know,just a shirt, regular old
Oxford kind of shirt.
And sometimes I'd wear a vestor I'd wear a blazer, and I
tried to buy blazersin women's department.
I was afraid to shop in themen's department for too many
(09:36):
articles of clothing.
Pants was one thing, but.
But any almost anything elsekind of scared me a little bit
because I was I was afraidpeople would judge me, but I
couldn't be any differentthan I was.
So I was just tryingto figure all that out.
It was very, very confusing.
(09:59):
But I carried myself intointerviews and into work
situations just by knowing thatI could do the job.
It's just it was alwaysabout the job.
It was never about me.
And so I know.
Look at me, you can look at me.
But, you know, I know I don'tfit your ideas about what a
(10:21):
woman should be and certainlynot what a man should be.
But look, I'm.
I'm here to dothe job, and I can.
I can do it.
Let me show you.
And building relationships andthat basis moved me pretty
rapidly once I got into acorporation up the food chain.
(10:45):
Just beingcompetent was important.
And, you know, I, I rememberafter I'd worked at a medical
device manufacturing company astheir only writer for a year at
the Christmas party, the the,the HR director got a little
(11:07):
bit tipsy and she told me thatwhen I came in to interview for
that job, she could not tellwhether I was a man or a woman.
And so she kept asking mequestions that would elicit me
saying something about whetherI was male or female.
And I never did.
(11:28):
And she so but butshe liked me so much.
She gave me the job.
So, you know, it's.
Just well, luckily and andluckily to her,
that didn't matter.
Right.
And I.
Right, right.
Exactly.
Well, and you know, one of theone of the reasons I started
(11:50):
Klout for good was I get a lotof the same questions from
trans and queer employees thatI asked myself 25 years ago.
And and I in your inyour work, you referenced this
same thing and you stated thatfar too many people still
believe there's no informationto be found about transgendered
(12:13):
lives and and that you continueto feel the same questions.
Why?
Why do we think aswe've progressed, as we've as
the workplace has changed aspolicy and as as a lot of
different components of ourworkplaces change, Why do we
think it's it's still thereof an example.
I was speaking somewhererecently and a queer identified,
(12:34):
identified employee came up,came to me after and said,
So do you talk about what youand your partner did in your
C-suite meetings on Mondaymorning?
Do you really say whatyou two did over the weekend?
And so it just isa real lightbulb.
It's a real aha moment for meof we're still in many ways in
the same place because Iremember thinking and asking
(12:56):
some of those same questions,Why do you think that still is?
Well, look at the backlashwe're getting right now.
I mean, once once same sexmarriage was made legal,
the opposition has dug theirheels in deeply.
And they're they're makingit really, really hard for a
(13:19):
lot of people.
And so I think.
It hasn't changed all that muchbecause we're still suffering
from the same prejudices,the same mythology and the same
fears that people have whenthey don't know anybody who is
Lgbtq+ and or they simply havewritten us off already.
(13:41):
They aren't going to.
They don't care about knowingus at all.
So that's that's a barrier thatstill has to be
broken down completely.
And the people who have themost power in driving the the
backlash that's going onnow isolate themselves.
They would never put themselvesin a situation where they would
(14:02):
get to know somebody theydon't want to.
I mean, look at the legislatorswho are in these sessions where
they're doing hearings forthese horrible bills that they
just won't listen.
They just say, no, thank youvery much for coming in.
We're done with you.
We don't want tohear any more from you.
I still think we canbeat it back.
(14:24):
I still think wecan overcome this.
But it's by being present anddemonstrating who we are and
demonstrating that we are notanything to be feared.
We are not going to be hurtingthem the way they want
to hurt us.
We're not taking anythingaway from them.
(14:45):
Yeah, and I think youbring up such a good point.
With over 500 different typesof bills and legislation that
are very specifically over thelast year or so, anti-trans,
very specifically antiqueer in general.
It's it's pretty overwhelming.
And I know in your abstractthat I read Unbending The Light.
(15:09):
You describe your workwith the San Francisco Human
Rights Commission, the HumanRights Campaign and the
Corporate Equality Index andthe World Professional
Association of TransgenderedHealth to create critically
needed transgender,inclusive health
and workplace benefits.
So just this pioneer andsomeone we can all be very
(15:31):
thankful for, for this work ofon the sort of policy side and
on on the governmental sidereally making monumental is is
a word that should be attachedto it work and you know so
thank you for that,first of all.
And you know, I guess onequestion is we're talking
(15:53):
about this, you know,not to fear us.
And but it looks like from yourexperience really working with
that outside of corporate worldto make policy change that's
lasting and impactful, what canemployees do and what can
companies do to make changewithin the workplace?
(16:13):
And how did you or have younavigated the workplace side of
that to advocate for change?
Absolutely.
Back in the early 90s,I realized that there was so
little awareness of who transpeople were that I decided I
was going to start offeringgender diversity trainings or
(16:36):
gender diversity education,and specifically in
the workplace, because transpeople often had difficulty
finding jobs or stayingemployed because
of prejudice predominantly.
So I started I had I had flyersthat I produced that basically
(16:59):
said this is a problem.
If you think as an HR directoryou have never faced this,
I can assure you youwill face it.
You you may actually alreadyhave transgender employees
working at your company and youjust don't know it.
And if you if you don't thinkyou have some, trust me,
(17:20):
you're going to have some.
And and I did quitea bit of this work.
I did a program at Macy's for aseries of brochures explaining
what to do when you can't tellwhat somebody's sex is or you
think that they're not whothey should be.
(17:42):
If you're a salesperson,if you're a manager and how to
treat customers, Itwas very, very successful.
And after I did that and Idid it, it was it was the
head office, corporate officein Cincinnati that contacted me
to develop this for them.
(18:03):
And after that, in the SanFrancisco store, trans women
who often are extremely skilledat applying makeup, you would
you began to see trans womenworking at the cosmetic counter
in Macy's in downtown San.
Cisco.
And, you know, that's that'sa great thing.
(18:27):
And whether the whether thecustomers knew they were
transgender or not,I have no idea.
And then eventually I startedseeing I would walk into like a
Starbucks or a Peet's coffeeand a trans worker would say
they would recognize me andthey'd I'd order my coffee and
they would say,It's on the house.
(18:49):
And there was I thought thatwas so sweet because I
recognized them as trans people.
I'd never met them.
But and I don't know how theyrecognized me, but they did.
And I was reallyflattered by that.
I love it.
I love it.
You know, one of the otherthings that the listeners of
(19:11):
Klout for good, one of thethings that I talk a lot about
is working to be yourmost authentic self.
As as you've talked a littlebit about your journey and,
you know, you even mentioned insome of your work that
visibility is is important.
And certainly it is, you know,if you can see it and maybe
it's at leastbuilding conversations,
(19:32):
opening the door,driving awareness and
then creating solutions.
But many folks inthe workplace, those who are
maybe thinking I'd like to bemore authentically myself,
a younger trans employee,a younger queer employee,
or someone who's in the closetand hasn't felt comfortable
being able to bring theirmore authentic self.
(19:52):
What What advice would you giveto folks who are trying to show
up more authentically and do itsafely and do it in a way that
works for them?
What advice wouldyou give to folks?
It's it's reallyabout building relationships.
It's the first thing you haveto do in the workplace is show
up for the work.
(20:12):
You have to demonstrate thatyou are capable, that you're a
team player, that you'recompetent, that you
can produce, that you whateverit is that you are assigned to
produce it, you can do it andyou do it cheerfully and
competently and withconsideration
(20:35):
for your coworkers.
And you engage, you engage.
And that's how you break downthe barriers and don't make
it about you.
Don't make itabout your difference.
Don't always come from aplace of, you know, lack or
intimidation.
(20:56):
Get that you'reintimidated by them.
I'll always come from a placethat says, I'm here, I'm here
to do the job.
Let's work.
Let's work together.
And that will help to breakdown those barriers because
people know you're different.
(21:17):
They can figure that out.
They just don't know how andthey don't know what that is.
And then and then you you showthem that you're a human being
and and you identifywith their issues.
You know, ask themabout their problems.
Don't tell them about yoursunless they ask.
(21:39):
And then but make sure you'reon a level playing field in
that kind of acontext if you possibly can.
And and then, you know,you gradually you say, well,
you know, they saw that theysaw Ellen on TV.
You know, mean when when Eloncame out on TV, that was a big
(22:01):
deal for a lot of people.
And people were always in thosedays standing around the
water cooler, which, you know,we don't have those anymore.
Talking about what they watchedon TV last night when Elon came
out on TV, it was like, whoa,I can't imagine knowing
somebody who's gay.
And and you say, Oh, well,you already do really.
(22:24):
You probably know morethan you think.
For instance, there's me youcould say, you know,
And they go, Oh,because they already like you.
They already trust you.
That's what breaks things down.
And that's why coming out on a1 to 1 basis, why it's why it
takes so long to create thiscultural change is because we
(22:48):
have to change hearts and mindsone at a time and nobody
likes that anymore.
They want to put something onInstagram and move on, you know?
But that's not going to changethe world in that sense.
It's not going tohearts and minds.
And Jamison, I like what you'resaying about show up and
(23:09):
do your work.
You're you're hired todo that, first and foremost.
I think that'sreally good advice.
And it reminds me of when my myown coming out experience from
rural Michigan and onceI came out.
To your point of also sort ofchanging hearts and minds
one by one.
You know, once everyone in mysmall community found out that
(23:31):
I was identifying as gay,many people would say, well,
that's okay.
I know David.
I like David.
He's a good person,nice guy, whatever it was.
And that's okay with me.
And I think to your point,that really can translate
in the workplace.
It's, you know,Jamison's a great colleague,
does great work.
(23:51):
I really enjoy working with himand therefore that's okay
with me,hopefully is the response.
And also, you know, itmay to your point, spark a
conversation of sharing andunderstanding and, and getting
to know each other better,which I think is,
is really important.
Um, one thing I wanted tolisten as I, you know,
(24:11):
we work together.
As I had mentioned at Visa,and we had the privilege of of
running ouremployee resource group.
And I think we learned a lot ofthings from that experience.
I know for me, on this topic oftelling your story, you know,
queer employees and transemployees are
looking for community.
As you said, maybe people don'tknow who is or is not,
(24:33):
and you're lookingfor for community.
And what what importance didcommunity within the trans and
queer communitywithin your workplace.
What what did that mean to you?
Is that something that washelpful for you in the workplace
?
And should others sort of seekthat out as well?
Well, I think it's a good thingwhat it meant to me at Visa
(24:56):
in particular, which was thefirst place I worked,
that actually had an employeeresource group focused
on LGBT individuals.
What?
I didn't actually.
I was told about thegroup and, and I was encouraged
(25:16):
to come to the meetings and Ididn't want to at first because
I just I don't need that,you know, I'm just here to
do my job.
Exactly.
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, oh, this is actuallygreat because we can look at
some of the issues that aregoing on in the workplace that
(25:39):
are barriers to people like us.
So we may have theskills to have gotten over
those barriers,but others don't.
And we need to make room formore people always wherever we
wherever we are.
And so learning to worktogether on issues that are
community building and I hadalready done this in outside of
(26:03):
the workplace a lot in thetrans world because I inherited
a group, a support group fortrans men in 1991 when its
founder passed away fromcomplications of HIV.
Um, so I, I had brought mymanagement skills to that
(26:27):
task actually, to encouragepeople to work together,
to encourage people to growcommunity rather than just find
the information they wanted andthen run away.
But to be there to help thenext person who was going to
come in with thesame questions that you had.
(26:48):
So, you know, we built a very,very large global community out
of this tiny little supportgroup in San Francisco.
And so I was and that's how Igot involved with this city
laws and stuff.
And I actually wrote the thefirst nondiscrimination law
that for the city of SanFrancisco that included gender
(27:10):
identity and expression as aprotected category of
human humanness, that peopleshouldn't be discriminated for.
So discriminated againstfor awkward sentence.
But sorry but you knowwhat I mean.
So so they're in the workplaceto finally have a group of
(27:33):
people that were actuallysharing the same concerns and
bringing our diverse skillsfrom the workplace into that
space was really abreath of fresh air ultimately.
And it was, of course,great working with you, David.
And, you know, we were able tobring in corporate sponsors,
(27:56):
you know, bring in theexecutives who really had the
clout to do what we needed themto do, but we had to give them
the tools to exercise theirclout with in ways that would
be beneficial for not just usas individuals, but for a much
(28:19):
wider swath ofthe workplace population.
I remember the fightfor same sex benefits,
domestic partner benefitsback in the 80s.
That was a real big change inthe workplace and it benefited
(28:41):
not just Lgbtq+ people,but anyone who chose for some
reason to be in adomestic partnership, but not
in not import thebenefits of marriage.
And there were plenty ofstraight couples who did that.
And, you know, when when peopleget older, there are tax
(29:03):
benefits to not being married.
So, I mean, it's so a lot of,you know, couples who get
together in the in thesenior center, they're they
they don't want to getmarried necessarily, but they
do want to be economicallyjoined and domestic
partnership helps them.
So it's you know, the thingsthat matter to us can matter to
(29:29):
people outside ofour social circles.
And we have to findways that to frame things,
to frame arguments, to framethe concepts of equality,
that let people know thatthey're not being something's
not being taken away from them.
They're not going to benegatively impacted by this.
(29:51):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of that workwe did together there and that
we've continued todo after Visa.
You know, you're right.
I think, as you said, to notfear what you don't know,
but also to be a part of likeyou said, I remember really
distinctly as you brought thatup sitting and we would have
those conversations with withleaders up to the CEO of
(30:14):
Visa saying, here's whythis is important.
Here's what thisthis audience, this group of
employees that you have,these are needs that they have.
And, you know, and it was Iremember also as you bring
up domestic, you know,health care benefits or you
bring up covering transition aspart of health care, there were
(30:35):
price tags that hadto be discussed.
And you know that in creatingequity through even in
some cases, the employerneeding to invest more.
But that's what they needed todo to support their
full employee community.
So it was it was really anamazing time to be able to be a
part of a lot of that.
And I think, as we've said,there are still things that are
(30:56):
on the table, especially withall of this sort of anti-trans
and queer legislation andpolicy has been happening.
Well, one thing I'm interestedin is, as I have gotten to know
you more, which has been areally amazing privilege, is,
you know, I read your book,I read your abstract.
(31:16):
I kind of poke around and learnmore about you and stemming
from your own personal journeyand staying on track with that
and being true to yourself tohelping write policy that has
helped our community to writinga book that quite frankly seems
like it probably was a fewyears earlier than everyone was
(31:38):
ready to digest it.
And now, as you're asked tocome back and hey, this now
book is picked up again,we'd like you to do audio and
we'd like to do other things.
You know, being sucha trailblazer, really, I think
is what this kind ofalludes to is.
I'm curious from you, what isyour what's your legacy or what
are you most proud ofas you look back now?
(32:00):
And there's lots more to come,I know you'll continue to do
things that are impactful,but as you look at it
right now, what are you mostproud of in your journey?
Oh, my gosh, Most proud.
You know, a lot of it's aboutabout encouraging people to be
visible and be themselves andnot be afraid.
(32:21):
I think that's to to be aninspiration for people to not
fear themselves in the world,I think is something that
I'm very, very proud of.
I hear from people frequently,you know, you were the first
person I ever saw who waslike me, and you gave
me the courage.
(32:41):
Even though we never met.
You gave me the courageto move forward on my journey.
And that's a that'sa it's a privilege and
a responsibility.
And I, I am honored by thegratitude that I receive,
even though I've never metpeople who are doing living
(33:02):
their lives this way.
I recently was at a meeting inMontreal and, and two two young
men from, uh, from New Zealandcame and they, they brought
their copy of my book and theywanted me to sign it.
(33:24):
And they, it brought mea little present.
Actually, it was a littlerepresentation of a, of a, of a
little God type figure from theindigenous people there.
And you know, they werejust so grateful.
And, you know, Icould give them a hug.
(33:46):
And, you know, it was like thebest thing that ever happened.
And, you know, it's not I'm nottrying to be I'm not trying to
have a swelled head over this.
I just I feel so privileged tobe able to touch people from
all over the world.
And another another young manfrom Ireland came and said,
(34:06):
we I run a group for transpeople in Ireland and everyone
has to read your book.
And I'm like, Wow, I love it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You know, I love it.
More hugs and, you know,more encouragement for him,
you know, And it's just it'ssuch a privilege to be able to
(34:28):
give that to people.
And and, you know,I'm just grateful that I
have that ability.
That's that's great.
That's awesome.
And one final question for you.
So, you know, we're it's reallyas we just talked about,
influencing others.
(34:49):
And I no doubt know that peoplewho listen to this conversation
will learn more about you andyour work and will feel
inspired from theconversation as well.
But who along your journeyinspired you is where I'd like
to go next.
So you, if you are,as you've said, sort of
thinking about using your cloud,if you're having a
(35:10):
Klout for good dinner party andyou're gonna invite 2 or 3
trans or queer icons that,you know, I think people would
want to know who who's inspiredyou along the way.
Who would you invite to thatdinner party and why?
Well, I have to I have to startwith James Baldwin because he
(35:30):
was a creative genius and atrailblazer in so many ways.
He's just as a writer,you know, he's definitely been
an inspiration to meand on very different lines.
Doris Fish, do youknow who Doris Fish was?
(35:51):
I don't know.
Doris Fish was an iconic dragqueen in San Francisco.
She made an incredible film,which I hope everyone someday
will be able to see if it evergets properly restored.
Vegas in space.
It's a it's hysterical.
And and she wasa creative genius.
(36:16):
She was so talentedand so vivacious and so
artistic and creative.
She was just amazing.
And there's a great book abouther and the rise of drag
that's available now.
It just came out inthe last year.
It's called Who DoesThat Bitch Thinks She Is?
(36:40):
Doris Fish and the Rise of Drag.
It's really informative aboutSan Francisco in in the 60s,
70s and 80s and thethe impact of Aids HIV.
It's a brilliantly written bookby Craig Seligman.
Doris Fish is somebody that youwould not want to miss having
(37:02):
at your at your dinner.
She was she was wild.
She was wild.
And I, I actuallynever met Doris in person.
I saw her quite a bit.
And I know other people who didknow her well and who are
still alive today.
Butyeah, yeah, she was she would
be one and and another would beLou Sullivan, who was the young
(37:26):
guy who died and left me hislittle support group and who
sort of gave me opened the doorfor me to, to do
the global work that I've done.
And I don't know what I wouldhave done if I hadn't
(37:47):
ended up there.
But it was it wasn't like Iwanted to do what he asked
me to do.
But I promised him a weekbefore he died that I would I
would do what he asked me to do.
And.
And so I did.
And the rest is history.
But Lou Sullivan also was acreative genius on his own.
(38:10):
He was the first gayidentified trans man.
The medical establishmentbelieved that you could not be
gay and trans at thesame time, that there was no
such thing as agay trans person.
And we all knowthat to be not true.
(38:30):
But Lou was the one who wentout and had dialogues with some
of the leading psychiatrists inthe fields of studying gender
and convincing them that sexualorientation and gender identity
are two different things andeverybody has them and they can
(38:54):
be mix and match.
They're not There's no directline that says because you have
a male body, you're alwaysgoing to be attracted to women.
And just because you hadstarted with a female body and
want to be a man and need thismedical assistance to do this,
(39:15):
that doesn't mean that you aregoing to be attracted to women
in a men's body.
Well, I want to beinvited to the dinner party,
that's for sure.
That sounds that sounds amazing.
Well, yeah.
Doris will blow you away.
Jamison.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, Jamison, you know, I.
It's been.
I feel like one of the thingsthat that is amazing about our
(39:37):
conversation is, you know, I didit for good so that
people could hear stories andunderstand journeys and get
advice from folks who havealready taken steps to become
their authentic self.
And, you know, as I knew you atVisa and now what I've gotten
to know along the way,it's been such an honor and I'm
so impressed with the more allthat I continue to
(39:59):
learn about you.
So thank you verymuch for all you've done.
You are a visible man and youare seeing for those of you
that want to get a copy ofJamison's book Becoming a
Visible Man, visit JamesonGreen to learn more about where
you can purchase and download.
And there's evena discussion guide.
You could have that discussionguide for your group or for
(40:21):
your book club or for whateveryou'd like to use.
And to my listeners, thanks somuch for joining us today.
Please tune in every other weekon Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on Socialand visit Klout for good.
To subscribe toyour newsletter, I hope this
episode gives you themotivation to use your own
clout for good tomake a difference.
Jamieson Thank you somuch for joining me today.
(40:44):
Thank you, David.
Appreciate whatyou're doing here.
Thank you so much.
We?
Don't.
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