Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome.
Club for Good is a bi -weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:23):
workplace.
Today, I'm excited to welcome TerrenceFranklin to the show.
Terry holds a law degree from Harvard LawSchool and practices trust in estate
litigation in the law firm he co -founded,Sachs, Glazier, Franklin, and Lodi's.
In addition to being an accomplished andrecognized attorney, Terry is a passionate
(00:45):
storyteller and activist.
He discovered the 1846 legal documentsthat emancipated his family from slavery,
which helped him understand his life'smission.
which he defines as bending the arc ofhistory towards justice.
Terry's legal expertise is the inspirationand basis for a novel and limited series
(01:07):
he's working on called The Last Will ofLucy Sutton, the story of his ancestors'
escape from slavery and exodus to freedomin Illinois.
He recently completed a memoir, AnArcbender's Journal, which tells his story
of how he found himself while looking forhis ancestors.
Terry has served on the board of directorsof Outfest, a Los Angeles based LGBTQ arts
(01:31):
organization, and is a contributingopinion writer for advocate .com.
Terry, welcome to Clout for Good.
Thank you so much David, it's a pleasureto be here.
Yeah, your intro, there's so manyinteresting things.
And as a brand marketer and a storytellermyself, I'm really excited to hear a lot
more from you today.
(01:52):
So let's jump in.
So I start the conversation on Cloud4Goodby first of all, asking everyone to
discuss their identity and their path toauthenticity.
So Terry, tell us how do you identify andtell us maybe a little bit about your
coming out experience.
Okay, he, him, his are my adjectives.
(02:16):
And my coming out experience, I thinkprobably like a lot of people, has been a
bit of in and out throughout a lifetime.
But I spent probably the first 46 years ofmy life trying to not be what parts of me
told me I was.
I grew up in Chicago.
(02:38):
in a Christian household, African Americanfamily on the south side of Chicago, and
really didn't have any role models orexamples of black, gay, successful people.
That just wasn't a concept that existed inmy mind.
And given my Christian background, therewas no way to really look outside that
(03:01):
frame to see any examples of people who Imight be able to look to as examples.
So I spent...
a lot of my life thinking, you know,there's no way for me to be this thing,
even though I feel these feelings and Ihave these attractions.
And through a series of events, I had anexperience in college where I was sort of
(03:27):
outed to my parents who confronted me in abit of a...
What's the word?
What's the confrontation that you havewith somebody?
It's like when you have somebody who hasalcohol issues or substance abuse issues.
(03:53):
It was...
it was a bit of a, my gosh, I can't thinkof the word either.
yeah, if we want to record that.
But the bottom line is I got married to awonderful woman, fell in love and loved
her as much as you can love someone whenyou're not truly loving yourself.
(04:14):
We had two wonderful daughters together,raised those children.
And at some point, I think when I was 46,I look back and realize that half of my
life had been spent.
not truly being who I was.
And although I had told my wife when wefirst began dating that I was bisexual
(04:37):
because that was the best term I couldthink of to describe my past experiences
and really my hope for being able to havea life as a husband and father and all of
that.
And after 23 years, my...
body and mind said, wait a minute, this isnot who you are.
And I cheated.
(04:58):
She discovered the fact.
And in 2010, I realized that I needed tocome out and be who I was.
And that was a coming out both personally,and then I had to take that step and do it
professionally as well.
So in my office, I came in and toldeveryone.
And so it's, you know, and that was 2010.
(05:21):
So it's been 14 years now, which seemslike just yesterday in some ways.
On the other hand, it's been a lifetime.
Wow, I certainly can understand.
I also dated women until my mid -20sbefore I came out.
And I think there's this, at least fromour generation, this idea of this is your
(05:45):
path, this is what you do.
And also growing up actually in Michigan,sort of next door to Illinois, didn't see
a lot of representation.
I mean, quite frankly, none, didn't seeany.
And today, fortunately, we do have.
representation in media and other outletsthat folks can get exposure to, but didn't
have that.
And so I sort of thought this is, I guess,the path and made that choice.
(06:07):
It's a tough choice.
And especially after you committed to itfor so long, how was the experience of,
you know, were you at this time in 2010,had you already founded your firm with
your partners and had you already had yourown business and were you coming back to
these?
How was that experience?
(06:28):
Yeah, I had founded the firm in 2001 andhad been working with these people, my two
main partners that I've been working withone way or another since 1991 or 1992.
So a long time we'd have this relationshipand I knew them, they knew me as a couple
(06:50):
with my ex -wife, with my then wife and wewere friends and so.
In some ways, this was a bit of a shock toeveryone.
I think there were some people who came tome afterward and said, you know, I always
kind of wondered.
And there were others who said, my gosh, Ihad no idea.
You know, you and your wife were sotogether and raising these children and
(07:15):
seemed so happy.
And, you know, to the extent that peoplecan find ways to make happiness in a
situation where you're not truly livingyour full life.
That's what I was.
Intervention is the word we were bothtrying to think of earlier.
So it was a workplace and whole lifetransformation to suddenly become a
(07:42):
different person in some ways than I hadbeen to my friends and colleagues, my
professional colleagues.
Well, and you mentioned your family had,you know, whether it was based in their
Midwest values or their Christian religionvalues, both of which I'm very familiar
with having grown up in Michigan, like Imentioned, but also I'm curious, you know,
(08:05):
you had a career in law before your ownfirm and had been with other firms and had
other experiences.
I'd be interested in your take, you know,you clearly hadn't come out yet, but.
What were some of the signals you receivedfrom being in that industry?
Was that something you had gotten cues andhad seen things in your experience that
(08:28):
you thought this industry is accepting,this industry isn't accepting?
What's your point of view of the legalindustry, if you will, in the way that it
accepts and includes its LGBTQ plusemployees?
Right.
Well, I think that certainly at the timethat I first started practicing, there
(08:50):
were so few people who, you know, Istarted off, I graduated from law school
in 1989, went to a big firm and it wasthought of as one of the more liberal
firms.
It was very, Morrison & Forster was thename of the firm and it had the reputation
for having the mofo difference.
It was based out of San Francisco and,wanted to express itself as a place that
(09:13):
was more open and welcoming.
But we used to have a directory of lawfirms that we would look at to decide who
we were going to apply for summerinternships or jobs with.
And they would have little statistics andcharts about the numbers of African
-Americans, the numbers of Latinos orHispanics, the numbers of LGBTQ at the
(09:36):
time we was gay or lesbian.
We didn't have LGBTQ as a...
signifier and MoFo is one of the few firmsat the time that had listed two or three
out of the some probably over 200 or 300attorneys at the firm at the time who were
(09:57):
listed as actually gay and there wasactually one partner who became the
managing partner who was gay I thinkwithin the first couple of years that I
was at the firm which was reallyextraordinary and a real statement.
Having said that, when I looked around atmy class of fellow interning lawyers,
(10:19):
there were probably five guys of our 35who seemed like they might be gay, but
nobody talked about it.
Nobody acknowledged it.
It was taboo enough that this wasn't aplace where you were really going to put
yourself out there.
And that had been my experience incollege.
(10:41):
high school that amongst yourselves youmight whisper or acknowledge.
But if you wanted to be successful, if youwanted to find a path to achievement,
which is what all of us who went throughthe process of fighting to get into
college and fighting to get into lawschool and fighting to get to the best law
(11:01):
firms we're trying to do, there justweren't those examples there.
And so why would you burden yourself withan additional Hmm.
additional challenge to success byadmitting this thing that really wasn't a
cloud.
So it's been a long process.
(11:21):
It's been wonderful to watch since 1989 tothe present an evolution in our thinking,
you know, a transformation really in ourways of living that, you know, the idea of
marriage equality even, you know, twoyears before 2015 would have seemed
at least to me, incomprehensible.
(11:43):
And I had trouble understanding thatconcept or even getting used to the term
husband to describe my husband.
It took a long time for those words, forthat word to make sense in this context.
But, you know, this is our experience.
And I think young people entering theprofession today find that it's a much
more open and welcoming profession.
(12:05):
There are lots of...
organizations and entities that supportLGBTQ attorneys.
There's Lambda Legal that fights for therights of LGBTQ people.
There's Lavender Law, which is sort of anational network of lawyers that provide
continuing education and opportunities andencourage one another.
(12:29):
The ABA, American Bar Association, hasa...
diversity, equity, and inclusion aspect.
In fact, I was on a commission for the ABAcommission on gay, I was on a commission
(12:50):
that was advocating for LGBTQ rights amonglawyers and pushing for changes and
developments in the law.
So, you know, I don't know where this willgo because I think there's always
resistance to change and we can see thathappening.
across the country and there's still somany places where the world can be better.
But I would not have wanted to be the gayblack man I am at any time in the past and
(13:15):
I can only hope for a better and brighterfuture.
I think that's, you know, and as youmentioned, I think certainly in the
eighties and nineties, there was a lot ofthis sort of hide yourself.
I've given the example of one of mymanagers and one of my first jobs had a,
had a gay holiday party and a straightholiday party.
And it just sort of was a course of whatyou did was sort of kept your personal
(13:39):
life private.
If you, if you really didn't want peopleto know what that was and.
As you said, you know, sort of just nowhaving this sort of, I don't want all
these things working against me.
I've worked so hard to get here.
And I think the stat that's, that's outthere now is still 49 % of employees who
identify as LGBTQ still feel that showingup truly authentically can hinder their
(14:05):
ability to be promoted and can hindertheir opportunity to have a more
successful career.
So.
It's, it certainly is, as you mentioned, Ithink it certainly is better.
And I certainly see from my volunteer workand being out in the community, law firms
are huge contributors to our efforts.
And so you do see a lot of participationand a lot of exposure out there, which is
(14:28):
really, really positive.
Terry switching gears a little, I, inpreparation for our talk, after we were
introduced to one another, I watched yourTed talk on.
Bending the Arc of History TowardsJustice.
And I certainly encourage listeners to dothe same so they can hear more of the
details of this engagement that youdelivered.
(14:50):
But for today, might you tell us what youeven mean by bending the arc of history
towards justice?
And tell us how this is, you've evenmentioned this has become your life's
work.
Tell us a little bit about it.
Absolutely, it is my life's work and it'skind of amazing to find a mission in life
(15:11):
and I think that's something that I nowtry to encourage other people to do is to
try to figure out not what you want to beor who you want to be but how you might
want to change the world for the better.
And if you use that as a guiding principleit can help you to find the things and
the...
(15:31):
the goals that you need to achieve thatmission and as long as you're working
towards that mission, you feel fulfilled.
So the bottom line is that I had beendoing this particular practice area, trust
in estate litigation.
So will contests, family disputes, thatkind of work for 25 years when I
(15:52):
discovered that there was a will contestin my family.
The challenge to a document from 1846.
because it turns out that my great -great-great -great -grandfather was a white
farmer in Florida, and he owned my great-great -great -great -grandmother, whom he
described in his last Will and Testamentas his, quote, mulatto slave Lucy, aged
(16:17):
about 45.
But my fourth great -grandfather's willwent on to set Lucy free, along with her
eight children and gr -six grandchildren who were all listed by
name and age in the document and withstipulation that they were to find their
way to Illinois or Ohio or Indiana, freestate, and claim their freedom.
(16:40):
So I discovered this in 2014.
It had been a circuitous path touncovering this document and looking back
now I realize thatPerhaps all my life I've been given clues
that I believe were clues from myancestors, from Lucy speaking to me across
(17:03):
time and across ages, perhaps through myDNA, telling me that this is my destiny,
is to find her story and to uncover herstory and to reveal it to the world and to
try to understand what her story means.
Because when I first went looking for thisdocument,
(17:25):
Do you want to ask a question?
I don't want to stop you.
no, go ahead.
This is it's fascinating.
No, keep going.
I first began looking for this document in2001.
I'd gone to a family reunion, and part ofthe reunion materials included this little
typed up transcript from this documentthat said, I, John Sutton, being of sound
(17:49):
mind but infirm in body, own the followingproperty.
And I had seen this typed up in cursivefont.
So those of you who are old enough,your listeners who are old enough to know
what a cursive font means know that youcan change the font in an old typewriter
from the 80s to make it look like cursive.
(18:11):
So what this was a clue to me was thatsomeone, a relative, had gone and done
research in the 80s and had found thisdocument in Illinois and the public
records in southern Illinois.
And the description of it said that therewas a copy of it that was there in
southern Illinois.
There was also a copy of this will thathad been recorded in Georgia.
(18:33):
And the original was in Jacksonville,Florida, which is where John Sutton lived.
And when I first saw it in 2001, I wasfascinated.
I thought, hey, I'm a trust and estateslawyer.
Maybe I should try and find this.
I called the clerk in Jacksonville and Isaid, I'm trying to find this will.
Here's the page and line number.
She said, yeah, we'll send it to you.
(18:56):
Send me $2 for the cost of the copy.
and I sent it to her.
It was 2001 and I never heard back.
I forgot about it.
14 years later or 13 years later, I had agreat aunt who was turning 100 and I
wanted to do something to commemorate herbirthday and I remembered, not that I had
gone looking for the document, but Iremembered those reunion materials.
(19:17):
So I dug around in my papers, I found thisthing and I pulled it out and by now, I'm
still a trust and estate lawyer, but it's13 years more of experience.
I had then become a fellow in the AmericanCollege of Trust and Estate Council, which
is a national organization of trust andestate lawyers who support each other in
(19:38):
the development of the law.
So I now had resource and access to peopleacross the country.
I could call up and ask for advice.
So I called lawyers in Florida and Iexplained that I was trying to find this
document from 1846 and.
I heard back from them there was the greatfire of Jacksonville in 1901 and
(19:58):
everything was destroyed.
You're never gonna find this.
But then I found this paralegal wholistened to my story and heard me explain
that my green aunt had been this speciallady whose 100th birthday was coming.
She'd been married to a Tuskegee Airman.
She'd walked four miles each way to gether degree.
And this paralegal got inspired.
(20:20):
And she told me, you know,There was the great fire, but let me see
what I could do.
And she set about trying to find thedocument.
And ultimately she found it and sent methese images across time and the country
and that this red wax seal on a documentthat you can't see on a podcast, but it
(20:45):
just vibrated with a truth and a realitythat made this document real to me in a
way that it hadn't before.
and really opened the door to my continuedpath to understand what that document
meant and whether there were otherdocuments that supported it.
And those documents have been a connectionto the past and have helped me to see that
(21:11):
my ancestors are at one end of an arc ofhistory and I have descendants in the
future and whether they're my directdescendants from my children or...
people who will look back wondering whatwe did to try to make the world better.
And so I understand that my place isbetween the past and between the future.
And it's my role is to help to make theworld better for the people who come out.
(21:37):
I love it.
I love how it's so connected to yourprofession, your family sort of, you know,
documentation and history.
And also to, as you said, sort ofexploring the truth.
And as you had just come out several yearsbefore and you were, you were probably
still figuring yourself out and figure outthat journey.
How, how do you think this work and thisexperience you had with this, did it
(22:02):
change anything about your, your approachto your work and your profession?
It did in that I have a greater sense ofperspective that the documents that were
created in 1846 by this white man who, youknow, I understood, owned my ancestor and
(22:24):
therefore she had no real agency orcontrol over her life.
But I wanted to believe that Lucy,did have some agency even within the
bounds of slavery in an antebellum period.
And that somehow she got John to see herhumanity and to recognize that and to
therefore take action in a time when awhite man didn't need to do that to make
(22:50):
sure that she and her children would befree.
And that gives you a different sense ofthe value and the importance of the work
that we do on a day -to -day basis so thata document that's drafted today,
may have ramifications and repercussionsway into the future.
And recognizing that importance haschanged my perspective and my
(23:12):
understanding on the work that I do.
And frankly, because I think this story isa story that has lots of lessons for lots
of people to hear, my mission,as I see it is to tell the story as widely
as I can and so it's inspired me to finddifferent ways.
(23:34):
So I'm working on this novel, you know,I'm working on this limited series for TV
and you know we're working on musicalpieces.
We've been commissioned by the OaklandSymphony Chorus to create essentially a
musical piece that has inspired additionalthoughts.
I've got this grand musical idea.
We're going to tell this.
(23:55):
Antebellum interracial, intergenerational,intersectional, fully sexual, unbelievably
true tale of how the power of love willset you free.
I mean, that's been become, you know, thisempowering vision that these documents and
connection to my history has has given meinsights into.
(24:18):
So this is part of that mission to issitting here talking to you and sharing
the story.
That's right.
I think, you know, the power of for cloutfor good, you know, the, the power of
being yourself and telling your truth andshowing up and, and with all of this that
you've experienced, how now you look backat the years you, you know, and certainly
(24:42):
had a portion of your life that was, I'msure for the most part, very happy and
enjoyable, but now have made thisdecision.
You know, several years ago to, to takethis different path and be out and, and
proclaim your, you know, queer identityand how does sitting here now, so what,
what advice, you know, this is not anuncommon story, even still today of having
(25:08):
a challenge of being able to come up for avariety of reasons, family, religion,
financial safety, other things.
When you think about sort of where you arenow in the path that you've taken.
What advice do you have to sort of youngerfolks or maybe even folks who are still
contemplating and haven't had that momentof truth?
What advice do you give to folks asthey're trying to figure this out for
(25:31):
themselves?
That's a really good question and I thinkmy advice to those people is that you know
it's a very personal and really anintimate decision that you have to come to
in the right time for you to decide whenyou want to live your life fully and
(25:55):
authentically and to reject the shame andto...
get the other people out of your head whoare telling you that you're supposed to
live your life in a certain way.
But the feeling of liberation and...
comfort despite the fact that there arepeople who reject or who don't believe
(26:20):
that it's okay to be gay or lesbian orthat trans people don't exist even though
those people are out there and and theywant to try to inhibit our ability to
express ourselves whether you're out ornot those people are going to be there and
you're going to feelpressures and burdens, this is the nature
(26:41):
of what life is about.
But if you can take those obstacles, thatpressure, and recognize it and say, it's
more important for me to love who I am, toknow that I am valid as a human being,
that I have a purpose for being here, thatI'm as essential to this universe as
(27:05):
anybody else.
And to be able to proclaim that,in your full self, with your full identity
is so empowering and it sends such amessage to other people and they give it
back.
I have found that just being myself andbeing true to who I am has given me so
(27:25):
much benefit in my life.
So I would encourage other people to pushand lean into your own authenticity.
You're here for a reason, you're here fora purpose.
And if you don't fulfill that purpose,no one will do it.
I think that was a quote from Dr.
Benjamin Mays who was a colleague of Dr.
(27:46):
Martin Luther King and really a mentor tohim that we all have a purpose and I don't
think you can get to your purpose unlessyou are true to yourself.
I love it.
And, and as you were going through this,Terry was who did you lean on?
What resources were out there for you?
How did you, you know, you had said overthe years, maybe there, maybe I have some
(28:10):
truth I need to figure out and explore.
And were there any resources or would youoffer up any resources that, that, that
you use through your journey?
That's a good question.
I think part of this is being aware of thepossibilities out there, like really sort
(28:30):
of looking at things.
I think back to the people who were, youknow, Bayard Rustin, who helped Martin
Luther King, who really organized theMarch on Washington.
I didn't know who he was.
He didn't exist for me that there was thisqueer person who was involved in the
organization.
Lorraine Hansberry who wrote Raisin in theSun, who knew she was a lesbian?
(28:57):
We weren't told those things.
And today there are so many resources.
You can hop on the internet and look forgay lawyers, gay writers, gay doctors,
whatever it is in the area that you'reinterested in pursuing.
And you can find resources, people who areexamples.
(29:18):
who live their lives openly and honestly.
And I think if you can look for those andtry to use those, you know, people talk
about the word role model and I alwaysfeel uncomfortable with that term in some
ways because it both assumes that therehas to be a certain role and that there's
(29:40):
a certain model for what makes, you know,the best person.
I...
I've won awards for mentorship, but Ithink what we want to try to be is
examples, because what you want to do isto be someone who has lived their life in
their way that someone else can look atand can see that, and then take from that
(30:02):
what might be useful to them and combinethat with their own spirit, with their own
determination, with their own goals andmission, and make something new.
And I think that's...
what we're here for is to help encourageother people to find ways to be their best
selves.
And so I think that's far from thequestion, but I think that's what I want
(30:24):
people to know.
think it's so true.
And I think you're so right about seekingand exploring and you know, your Bayard
Rustin example after watching ColemanDomingo last year in that film and leaving
and saying, there are so many stories.
There are so many people that theirstories have not been told.
(30:49):
And I think it's just amazing for us to bein this time now.
for to your recommendation to thelisteners, you know, when we were
contemplating these things in the eightiesand nineties, it was very difficult to
find a lot of this information.
And now I think there is such anopportunity to watch a Rustin film and be
able to understand the struggles and beingable to also, I think, to your point,
(31:12):
inspire and show possibility and show thatthere is a path.
So I think it's really, really goodadvice.
And I think, you know, I know your yourwork with
LGBTQ plus films and storytelling that youdo of your own.
They're all great ways.
And here, like you said, being here todayon clout for good and telling your story,
I think is really important for folks toconnect to these, these experiences.
(31:35):
So as you know, the, on the show, we talka lot about using your clout for good.
So in other words, using your outness tomake a difference.
So thinking back on your career, tell uswhen you've used your clout for good.
to make a difference for the queercommunity in the workplace.
(31:56):
What I've tried to do is to be who I am,authentically as possible.
As I mentioned when I came out in 2010, Iwas trying to find ways to identify
community, people who would be supportive.
And so I was sort of casting about, and soI sort of found out about Lambda Legal,
(32:22):
found out because I was also trying tofigure out how to...
tell stories in a better way, in a broaderway, about Outfest and got involved and
got on the board of Outfest.
And through that created community throughcontacts, relationships that have also
become professional relationships as wellthrough the law.
(32:44):
So it's sort of trying to take a 360degree approach, look at yourself where
you are, and then sort of looking aroundat who's around you.
And...
how you might make a little differencehere or there.
And so I think just trying to be authenticwhenever I can and using that to try to
(33:08):
leverage it into opportunities to tellother people that you can be who you are
and find the place you need to be to livea healthy life.
That's not.
closed and stuck in a closet where youcan't be who you are.
(33:30):
And sometimes that might mean changingwhere you live, changing your profession,
changing your outlook, and changing thepeople who are around you so that the
people who are around you are people whoare supportive and who can help you become
your best you.
Yeah, I, I, it's such good advice to, Ithink your examples of seeking out lamb to
(33:51):
legal or outfest or other types oforganizations, you know, myself, I was a
athlete in college and I got involved withLGBT sports.
And so I met, met one of my first friendsI met said, do you want to come and play
gay volleyball?
And I thought, what's gay volleyball?
I don't understand what that is.
I just come out at 24 in Atlanta and,Similarly, those experiences created some
(34:12):
of the best experiences I've had stilltoday playing in gay athletics, in tennis
and otherwise.
And to your point, you not only have agreat, I always say you're going out and
saying, I'm going to try something that'sgood for me.
(34:33):
It's healthy.
I'm going to be around a group of folkswho have similar views that I do.
So I know that I can find acceptance.
And we're all here for the same thing.
We want to enjoy ourselves and have a goodtime and enrich our lives.
And I think all those organizations or anytype of organizations, actually one of my
guests that actually introduced me to you,Valerie Madden had said, just get out
(34:54):
there.
And I know you two met with yourparticipation in OutFest.
I think really good advice to I think beout there and be as authentic as you can.
And relationships and experiences lead tothings that are unexpected.
I think that folks sometimes.
Sometimes you have that feeling on yourway to your event or thing.
You're like, I don't know if I really wantto go to this.
And I think a lot of times really try tomake yourself go and see what it's all
(35:18):
about.
So, so one final question, Terry, I askeveryone this, it's a really popular
question.
People like to see what all, all of myguests say about this.
But the final question is we want to knowwho's inspired you along the way.
So for a moment, imagine you're hosting aclout for good dinner party.
What two or three queer icons,have inspired you or do you respect that
(35:39):
you'd like to have at the table?
You know, and I probably already sort oftipped my hat a little bit, but I think
somebody like Bayard Rustin and LorraineHansberry, you know, they're those people
whose work I was aware of as a youngperson or even Langston Hughes, the great
(36:03):
poet who I'm not sure if he's even todaytotally acknowledged as having been queer.
But these are people when I was a kid, youknow, I loved their...
I loved the effects of what they weredoing.
I was aware of the March on Washington.
I was only a year old when it happened,but historically it was one of those
(36:24):
things.
Raisin in the Sun, and then there was amusical called Raisin, and I knew that
Lorraine Hansberry was from Chicago, whereI was from, and as a lawyer I knew that
her father had been a plaintiff in alawsuit that involved racially restrictive
covenants, and that was part of theinspiration for that story.
(36:45):
had I known that she was also a queerperson?
My level of understanding of that storyand what her experience was as somebody
who had to remain closeted and so forth.
Nikki Giovanni, these artists whosestorytelling, now we can see how it was
(37:07):
inspired and infused with.
who they were as people trying to livetheir lives and express themselves as
artists that we couldn't know those littlesecrets behind the doors back then.
I would love to get their insights todayto be able to say, hey, how did it feel to
(37:29):
have to keep yourself closeted and tell methose places where you found a way to show
who you truly were?
And think of the change in the feelingthey would have being, being welcomed to a
dinner table to say, be who you are andsay what it is.
They would be shocked that this is wherewe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(37:51):
Exactly.
Well, Terry, thank you so much for all youdo for community.
And thank you for joining me today.
I will be sure to share, the, the Ted talkand other, other ways to get in touch with
you as we, as we promote the episode.
I'm out there, but thank you.
Thanks for the time today.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
(38:11):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure,David.
And to my listeners, happy pride andthanks so much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social and visit cloudforgood.com to subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour cloud for good to make a difference
(38:32):
in your workplace.
Hello everyone and welcome.
Club for Good is a bi -weekly podcast thatshowcases personal and powerful
conversations with prominent LGBTQ plusexecutives who are out in the workplace.
The conversations are meant to create asupportive community and inspire LGBTQ
plus people, their employers and allies tobuild equity and inclusion in the
(00:23):
workplace.
Today, I'm excited to welcome TerrenceFranklin to the show.
Terry holds a law degree from Harvard LawSchool and practices trust in estate
litigation in the law firm he co -founded,Sachs, Glazier, Franklin, and Lodi's.
In addition to being an accomplished andrecognized attorney, Terry is a passionate
(00:45):
storyteller and activist.
He discovered the 1846 legal documentsthat emancipated his family from slavery,
which helped him understand his life'smission.
which he defines as bending the arc ofhistory towards justice.
Terry's legal expertise is the inspirationand basis for a novel and limited series
(01:07):
he's working on called The Last Will ofLucy Sutton, the story of his ancestors'
escape from slavery and exodus to freedomin Illinois.
He recently completed a memoir, AnArcbender's Journal, which tells his story
of how he found himself while looking forhis ancestors.
Terry has served on the board of directorsof Outfest, a Los Angeles based LGBTQ arts
(01:31):
organization, and is a contributingopinion writer for advocate .com.
Terry, welcome to Clout for Good.
Thank you so much David, it's a pleasureto be here.
Yeah, your intro, there's so manyinteresting things.
And as a brand marketer and a storytellermyself, I'm really excited to hear a lot
more from you today.
(01:52):
So let's jump in.
So I start the conversation on Cloud4Goodby first of all, asking everyone to
discuss their identity and their path toauthenticity.
So Terry, tell us how do you identify andtell us maybe a little bit about your
coming out experience.
Okay, he, him, his are my adjectives.
(02:16):
And my coming out experience, I thinkprobably like a lot of people, has been a
bit of in and out throughout a lifetime.
But I spent probably the first 46 years ofmy life trying to not be what parts of me
told me I was.
I grew up in Chicago.
(02:38):
in a Christian household, African Americanfamily on the south side of Chicago, and
really didn't have any role models orexamples of black, gay, successful people.
That just wasn't a concept that existed inmy mind.
And given my Christian background, therewas no way to really look outside that
(03:01):
frame to see any examples of people who Imight be able to look to as examples.
So I spent...
a lot of my life thinking, you know,there's no way for me to be this thing,
even though I feel these feelings and Ihave these attractions.
And through a series of events, I had anexperience in college where I was sort of
(03:27):
outed to my parents who confronted me in abit of a...
What's the word?
What's the confrontation that you havewith somebody?
It's like when you have somebody who hasalcohol issues or substance abuse issues.
(03:53):
It was...
it was a bit of a, my gosh, I can't thinkof the word either.
yeah, if we want to record that.
But the bottom line is I got married to awonderful woman, fell in love and loved
her as much as you can love someone whenyou're not truly loving yourself.
(04:14):
We had two wonderful daughters together,raised those children.
And at some point, I think when I was 46,I look back and realize that half of my
life had been spent.
not truly being who I was.
And although I had told my wife when wefirst began dating that I was bisexual
(04:37):
because that was the best term I couldthink of to describe my past experiences
and really my hope for being able to havea life as a husband and father and all of
that.
And after 23 years, my...
body and mind said, wait a minute, this isnot who you are.
And I cheated.
(04:58):
She discovered the fact.
And in 2010, I realized that I needed tocome out and be who I was.
And that was a coming out both personally,and then I had to take that step and do it
professionally as well.
So in my office, I came in and toldeveryone.
And so it's, you know, and that was 2010.
(05:21):
So it's been 14 years now, which seemslike just yesterday in some ways.
On the other hand, it's been a lifetime.
Wow, I certainly can understand.
I also dated women until my mid -20sbefore I came out.
And I think there's this, at least fromour generation, this idea of this is your
(05:45):
path, this is what you do.
And also growing up actually in Michigan,sort of next door to Illinois, didn't see
a lot of representation.
I mean, quite frankly, none, didn't seeany.
And today, fortunately, we do have.
representation in media and other outletsthat folks can get exposure to, but didn't
have that.
And so I sort of thought this is, I guess,the path and made that choice.
(06:07):
It's a tough choice.
And especially after you committed to itfor so long, how was the experience of,
you know, were you at this time in 2010,had you already founded your firm with
your partners and had you already had yourown business and were you coming back to
these?
How was that experience?
(06:28):
Yeah, I had founded the firm in 2001 andhad been working with these people, my two
main partners that I've been working withone way or another since 1991 or 1992.
So a long time we'd have this relationshipand I knew them, they knew me as a couple
(06:50):
with my ex -wife, with my then wife and wewere friends and so.
In some ways, this was a bit of a shock toeveryone.
I think there were some people who came tome afterward and said, you know, I always
kind of wondered.
And there were others who said, my gosh, Ihad no idea.
You know, you and your wife were sotogether and raising these children and
(07:15):
seemed so happy.
And, you know, to the extent that peoplecan find ways to make happiness in a
situation where you're not truly livingyour full life.
That's what I was.
Intervention is the word we were bothtrying to think of earlier.
So it was a workplace and whole lifetransformation to suddenly become a
(07:42):
different person in some ways than I hadbeen to my friends and colleagues, my
professional colleagues.
Well, and you mentioned your family had,you know, whether it was based in their
Midwest values or their Christian religionvalues, both of which I'm very familiar
with having grown up in Michigan, like Imentioned, but also I'm curious, you know,
(08:05):
you had a career in law before your ownfirm and had been with other firms and had
other experiences.
I'd be interested in your take, you know,you clearly hadn't come out yet, but.
What were some of the signals you receivedfrom being in that industry?
Was that something you had gotten cues andhad seen things in your experience that
(08:28):
you thought this industry is accepting,this industry isn't accepting?
What's your point of view of the legalindustry, if you will, in the way that it
accepts and includes its LGBTQ plusemployees?
Right.
Well, I think that certainly at the timethat I first started practicing, there
(08:50):
were so few people who, you know, Istarted off, I graduated from law school
in 1989, went to a big firm and it wasthought of as one of the more liberal
firms.
It was very, Morrison & Forster was thename of the firm and it had the reputation
for having the mofo difference.
It was based out of San Francisco and,wanted to express itself as a place that
(09:13):
was more open and welcoming.
But we used to have a directory of lawfirms that we would look at to decide who
we were going to apply for summerinternships or jobs with.
And they would have little statistics andcharts about the numbers of African
-Americans, the numbers of Latinos orHispanics, the numbers of LGBTQ at the
(09:36):
time we was gay or lesbian.
We didn't have LGBTQ as a...
signifier and MoFo is one of the few firmsat the time that had listed two or three
out of the some probably over 200 or 300attorneys at the firm at the time who were
(09:57):
listed as actually gay and there wasactually one partner who became the
managing partner who was gay I thinkwithin the first couple of years that I
was at the firm which was reallyextraordinary and a real statement.
Having said that, when I looked around atmy class of fellow interning lawyers,
(10:19):
there were probably five guys of our 35who seemed like they might be gay, but
nobody talked about it.
Nobody acknowledged it.
It was taboo enough that this wasn't aplace where you were really going to put
yourself out there.
And that had been my experience incollege.
(10:41):
high school that amongst yourselves youmight whisper or acknowledge.
But if you wanted to be successful, if youwanted to find a path to achievement,
which is what all of us who went throughthe process of fighting to get into
college and fighting to get into lawschool and fighting to get to the best law
(11:01):
firms we're trying to do, there justweren't those examples there.
And so why would you burden yourself withan additional Hmm.
additional challenge to success byadmitting this thing that really wasn't a
cloud.
So it's been a long process.
(11:21):
It's been wonderful to watch since 1989 tothe present an evolution in our thinking,
you know, a transformation really in ourways of living that, you know, the idea of
marriage equality even, you know, twoyears before 2015 would have seemed
at least to me, incomprehensible.
(11:43):
And I had trouble understanding thatconcept or even getting used to the term
husband to describe my husband.
It took a long time for those words, forthat word to make sense in this context.
But, you know, this is our experience.
And I think young people entering theprofession today find that it's a much
more open and welcoming profession.
(12:05):
There are lots of...
organizations and entities that supportLGBTQ attorneys.
There's Lambda Legal that fights for therights of LGBTQ people.
There's Lavender Law, which is sort of anational network of lawyers that provide
continuing education and opportunities andencourage one another.
(12:29):
The ABA, American Bar Association, hasa...
diversity, equity, and inclusion aspect.
In fact, I was on a commission for the ABAcommission on gay, I was on a commission
(12:50):
that was advocating for LGBTQ rights amonglawyers and pushing for changes and
developments in the law.
So, you know, I don't know where this willgo because I think there's always
resistance to change and we can see thathappening.
across the country and there's still somany places where the world can be better.
But I would not have wanted to be the gayblack man I am at any time in the past and
(13:15):
I can only hope for a better and brighterfuture.
I think that's, you know, and as youmentioned, I think certainly in the
eighties and nineties, there was a lot ofthis sort of hide yourself.
I've given the example of one of mymanagers and one of my first jobs had a,
had a gay holiday party and a straightholiday party.
And it just sort of was a course of whatyou did was sort of kept your personal
(13:39):
life private.
If you, if you really didn't want peopleto know what that was and.
As you said, you know, sort of just nowhaving this sort of, I don't want all
these things working against me.
I've worked so hard to get here.
And I think the stat that's, that's outthere now is still 49 % of employees who
identify as LGBTQ still feel that showingup truly authentically can hinder their
(14:05):
ability to be promoted and can hindertheir opportunity to have a more
successful career.
So.
It's, it certainly is, as you mentioned, Ithink it certainly is better.
And I certainly see from my volunteer workand being out in the community, law firms
are huge contributors to our efforts.
And so you do see a lot of participationand a lot of exposure out there, which is
(14:28):
really, really positive.
Terry switching gears a little, I, inpreparation for our talk, after we were
introduced to one another, I watched yourTed talk on.
Bending the Arc of History TowardsJustice.
And I certainly encourage listeners to dothe same so they can hear more of the
details of this engagement that youdelivered.
(14:50):
But for today, might you tell us what youeven mean by bending the arc of history
towards justice?
And tell us how this is, you've evenmentioned this has become your life's
work.
Tell us a little bit about it.
Absolutely, it is my life's work and it'skind of amazing to find a mission in life
(15:11):
and I think that's something that I nowtry to encourage other people to do is to
try to figure out not what you want to beor who you want to be but how you might
want to change the world for the better.
And if you use that as a guiding principleit can help you to find the things and
the...
(15:31):
the goals that you need to achieve thatmission and as long as you're working
towards that mission, you feel fulfilled.
So the bottom line is that I had beendoing this particular practice area, trust
in estate litigation.
So will contests, family disputes, thatkind of work for 25 years when I
(15:52):
discovered that there was a will contestin my family.
The challenge to a document from 1846.
because it turns out that my great -great-great -great -grandfather was a white
farmer in Florida, and he owned my great-great -great -great -grandmother, whom he
described in his last Will and Testamentas his, quote, mulatto slave Lucy, aged
(16:17):
about 45.
But my fourth great -grandfather's willwent on to set Lucy free, along with her
eight children and gr -six grandchildren who were all listed by
name and age in the document and withstipulation that they were to find their
way to Illinois or Ohio or Indiana, freestate, and claim their freedom.
(16:40):
So I discovered this in 2014.
It had been a circuitous path touncovering this document and looking back
now I realize thatPerhaps all my life I've been given clues
that I believe were clues from myancestors, from Lucy speaking to me across
(17:03):
time and across ages, perhaps through myDNA, telling me that this is my destiny,
is to find her story and to uncover herstory and to reveal it to the world and to
try to understand what her story means.
Because when I first went looking for thisdocument,
(17:25):
Do you want to ask a question?
I don't want to stop you.
no, go ahead.
This is it's fascinating.
No, keep going.
I first began looking for this document in2001.
I'd gone to a family reunion, and part ofthe reunion materials included this little
typed up transcript from this documentthat said, I, John Sutton, being of sound
(17:49):
mind but infirm in body, own the followingproperty.
And I had seen this typed up in cursivefont.
So those of you who are old enough,your listeners who are old enough to know
what a cursive font means know that youcan change the font in an old typewriter
from the 80s to make it look like cursive.
(18:11):
So what this was a clue to me was thatsomeone, a relative, had gone and done
research in the 80s and had found thisdocument in Illinois and the public
records in southern Illinois.
And the description of it said that therewas a copy of it that was there in
southern Illinois.
There was also a copy of this will thathad been recorded in Georgia.
(18:33):
And the original was in Jacksonville,Florida, which is where John Sutton lived.
And when I first saw it in 2001, I wasfascinated.
I thought, hey, I'm a trust and estateslawyer.
Maybe I should try and find this.
I called the clerk in Jacksonville and Isaid, I'm trying to find this will.
Here's the page and line number.
She said, yeah, we'll send it to you.
(18:56):
Send me $2 for the cost of the copy.
and I sent it to her.
It was 2001 and I never heard back.
I forgot about it.
14 years later or 13 years later, I had agreat aunt who was turning 100 and I
wanted to do something to commemorate herbirthday and I remembered, not that I had
gone looking for the document, but Iremembered those reunion materials.
(19:17):
So I dug around in my papers, I found thisthing and I pulled it out and by now, I'm
still a trust and estate lawyer, but it's13 years more of experience.
I had then become a fellow in the AmericanCollege of Trust and Estate Council, which
is a national organization of trust andestate lawyers who support each other in
(19:38):
the development of the law.
So I now had resource and access to peopleacross the country.
I could call up and ask for advice.
So I called lawyers in Florida and Iexplained that I was trying to find this
document from 1846 and.
I heard back from them there was the greatfire of Jacksonville in 1901 and
(19:58):
everything was destroyed.
You're never gonna find this.
But then I found this paralegal wholistened to my story and heard me explain
that my green aunt had been this speciallady whose 100th birthday was coming.
She'd been married to a Tuskegee Airman.
She'd walked four miles each way to gether degree.
And this paralegal got inspired.
(20:20):
And she told me, you know,There was the great fire, but let me see
what I could do.
And she set about trying to find thedocument.
And ultimately she found it and sent methese images across time and the country
and that this red wax seal on a documentthat you can't see on a podcast, but it
(20:45):
just vibrated with a truth and a realitythat made this document real to me in a
way that it hadn't before.
and really opened the door to my continuedpath to understand what that document
meant and whether there were otherdocuments that supported it.
And those documents have been a connectionto the past and have helped me to see that
(21:11):
my ancestors are at one end of an arc ofhistory and I have descendants in the
future and whether they're my directdescendants from my children or...
people who will look back wondering whatwe did to try to make the world better.
And so I understand that my place isbetween the past and between the future.
And it's my role is to help to make theworld better for the people who come out.
(21:37):
I love it.
I love how it's so connected to yourprofession, your family sort of, you know,
documentation and history.
And also to, as you said, sort ofexploring the truth.
And as you had just come out several yearsbefore and you were, you were probably
still figuring yourself out and figure outthat journey.
How, how do you think this work and thisexperience you had with this, did it
(22:02):
change anything about your, your approachto your work and your profession?
It did in that I have a greater sense ofperspective that the documents that were
created in 1846 by this white man who, youknow, I understood, owned my ancestor and
(22:24):
therefore she had no real agency orcontrol over her life.
But I wanted to believe that Lucy,did have some agency even within the
bounds of slavery in an antebellum period.
And that somehow she got John to see herhumanity and to recognize that and to
therefore take action in a time when awhite man didn't need to do that to make
(22:50):
sure that she and her children would befree.
And that gives you a different sense ofthe value and the importance of the work
that we do on a day -to -day basis so thata document that's drafted today,
may have ramifications and repercussionsway into the future.
And recognizing that importance haschanged my perspective and my
(23:12):
understanding on the work that I do.
And frankly, because I think this story isa story that has lots of lessons for lots
of people to hear, my mission,as I see it is to tell the story as widely
as I can and so it's inspired me to finddifferent ways.
(23:34):
So I'm working on this novel, you know,I'm working on this limited series for TV
and you know we're working on musicalpieces.
We've been commissioned by the OaklandSymphony Chorus to create essentially a
musical piece that has inspired additionalthoughts.
I've got this grand musical idea.
We're going to tell this.
(23:55):
Antebellum interracial, intergenerational,intersectional, fully sexual, unbelievably
true tale of how the power of love willset you free.
I mean, that's been become, you know, thisempowering vision that these documents and
connection to my history has has given meinsights into.
(24:18):
So this is part of that mission to issitting here talking to you and sharing
the story.
That's right.
I think, you know, the power of for cloutfor good, you know, the, the power of
being yourself and telling your truth andshowing up and, and with all of this that
you've experienced, how now you look backat the years you, you know, and certainly
(24:42):
had a portion of your life that was, I'msure for the most part, very happy and
enjoyable, but now have made thisdecision.
You know, several years ago to, to takethis different path and be out and, and
proclaim your, you know, queer identityand how does sitting here now, so what,
what advice, you know, this is not anuncommon story, even still today of having
(25:08):
a challenge of being able to come up for avariety of reasons, family, religion,
financial safety, other things.
When you think about sort of where you arenow in the path that you've taken.
What advice do you have to sort of youngerfolks or maybe even folks who are still
contemplating and haven't had that momentof truth?
What advice do you give to folks asthey're trying to figure this out for
(25:31):
themselves?
That's a really good question and I thinkmy advice to those people is that you know
it's a very personal and really anintimate decision that you have to come to
in the right time for you to decide whenyou want to live your life fully and
(25:55):
authentically and to reject the shame andto...
get the other people out of your head whoare telling you that you're supposed to
live your life in a certain way.
But the feeling of liberation and...
comfort despite the fact that there arepeople who reject or who don't believe
(26:20):
that it's okay to be gay or lesbian orthat trans people don't exist even though
those people are out there and and theywant to try to inhibit our ability to
express ourselves whether you're out ornot those people are going to be there and
you're going to feelpressures and burdens, this is the nature
(26:41):
of what life is about.
But if you can take those obstacles, thatpressure, and recognize it and say, it's
more important for me to love who I am, toknow that I am valid as a human being,
that I have a purpose for being here, thatI'm as essential to this universe as
(27:05):
anybody else.
And to be able to proclaim that,in your full self, with your full identity
is so empowering and it sends such amessage to other people and they give it
back.
I have found that just being myself andbeing true to who I am has given me so
(27:25):
much benefit in my life.
So I would encourage other people to pushand lean into your own authenticity.
You're here for a reason, you're here fora purpose.
And if you don't fulfill that purpose,no one will do it.
I think that was a quote from Dr.
Benjamin Mays who was a colleague of Dr.
(27:46):
Martin Luther King and really a mentor tohim that we all have a purpose and I don't
think you can get to your purpose unlessyou are true to yourself.
I love it.
And, and as you were going through this,Terry was who did you lean on?
What resources were out there for you?
How did you, you know, you had said overthe years, maybe there, maybe I have some
(28:10):
truth I need to figure out and explore.
And were there any resources or would youoffer up any resources that, that, that
you use through your journey?
That's a good question.
I think part of this is being aware of thepossibilities out there, like really sort
(28:30):
of looking at things.
I think back to the people who were, youknow, Bayard Rustin, who helped Martin
Luther King, who really organized theMarch on Washington.
I didn't know who he was.
He didn't exist for me that there was thisqueer person who was involved in the
organization.
Lorraine Hansberry who wrote Raisin in theSun, who knew she was a lesbian?
(28:57):
We weren't told those things.
And today there are so many resources.
You can hop on the internet and look forgay lawyers, gay writers, gay doctors,
whatever it is in the area that you'reinterested in pursuing.
And you can find resources, people who areexamples.
(29:18):
who live their lives openly and honestly.
And I think if you can look for those andtry to use those, you know, people talk
about the word role model and I alwaysfeel uncomfortable with that term in some
ways because it both assumes that therehas to be a certain role and that there's
(29:40):
a certain model for what makes, you know,the best person.
I...
I've won awards for mentorship, but Ithink what we want to try to be is
examples, because what you want to do isto be someone who has lived their life in
their way that someone else can look atand can see that, and then take from that
(30:02):
what might be useful to them and combinethat with their own spirit, with their own
determination, with their own goals andmission, and make something new.
And I think that's...
what we're here for is to help encourageother people to find ways to be their best
selves.
And so I think that's far from thequestion, but I think that's what I want
(30:24):
people to know.
think it's so true.
And I think you're so right about seekingand exploring and you know, your Bayard
Rustin example after watching ColemanDomingo last year in that film and leaving
and saying, there are so many stories.
There are so many people that theirstories have not been told.
(30:49):
And I think it's just amazing for us to bein this time now.
for to your recommendation to thelisteners, you know, when we were
contemplating these things in the eightiesand nineties, it was very difficult to
find a lot of this information.
And now I think there is such anopportunity to watch a Rustin film and be
able to understand the struggles and beingable to also, I think, to your point,
(31:12):
inspire and show possibility and show thatthere is a path.
So I think it's really, really goodadvice.
And I think, you know, I know your yourwork with
LGBTQ plus films and storytelling that youdo of your own.
They're all great ways.
And here, like you said, being here todayon clout for good and telling your story,
I think is really important for folks toconnect to these, these experiences.
(31:35):
So as you know, the, on the show, we talka lot about using your clout for good.
So in other words, using your outness tomake a difference.
So thinking back on your career, tell uswhen you've used your clout for good.
to make a difference for the queercommunity in the workplace.
(31:56):
What I've tried to do is to be who I am,authentically as possible.
As I mentioned when I came out in 2010, Iwas trying to find ways to identify
community, people who would be supportive.
And so I was sort of casting about, and soI sort of found out about Lambda Legal,
(32:22):
found out because I was also trying tofigure out how to...
tell stories in a better way, in a broaderway, about Outfest and got involved and
got on the board of Outfest.
And through that created community throughcontacts, relationships that have also
become professional relationships as wellthrough the law.
(32:44):
So it's sort of trying to take a 360degree approach, look at yourself where
you are, and then sort of looking aroundat who's around you.
And...
how you might make a little differencehere or there.
And so I think just trying to be authenticwhenever I can and using that to try to
(33:08):
leverage it into opportunities to tellother people that you can be who you are
and find the place you need to be to livea healthy life.
That's not.
closed and stuck in a closet where youcan't be who you are.
(33:30):
And sometimes that might mean changingwhere you live, changing your profession,
changing your outlook, and changing thepeople who are around you so that the
people who are around you are people whoare supportive and who can help you become
your best you.
Yeah, I, I, it's such good advice to, Ithink your examples of seeking out lamb to
(33:51):
legal or outfest or other types oforganizations, you know, myself, I was a
athlete in college and I got involved withLGBT sports.
And so I met, met one of my first friendsI met said, do you want to come and play
gay volleyball?
And I thought, what's gay volleyball?
I don't understand what that is.
I just come out at 24 in Atlanta and,Similarly, those experiences created some
(34:12):
of the best experiences I've had stilltoday playing in gay athletics, in tennis
and otherwise.
And to your point, you not only have agreat, I always say you're going out and
saying, I'm going to try something that'sgood for me.
(34:33):
It's healthy.
I'm going to be around a group of folkswho have similar views that I do.
So I know that I can find acceptance.
And we're all here for the same thing.
We want to enjoy ourselves and have a goodtime and enrich our lives.
And I think all those organizations or anytype of organizations, actually one of my
guests that actually introduced me to you,Valerie Madden had said, just get out
(34:54):
there.
And I know you two met with yourparticipation in OutFest.
I think really good advice to I think beout there and be as authentic as you can.
And relationships and experiences lead tothings that are unexpected.
I think that folks sometimes.
Sometimes you have that feeling on yourway to your event or thing.
You're like, I don't know if I really wantto go to this.
And I think a lot of times really try tomake yourself go and see what it's all
(35:18):
about.
So, so one final question, Terry, I askeveryone this, it's a really popular
question.
People like to see what all, all of myguests say about this.
But the final question is we want to knowwho's inspired you along the way.
So for a moment, imagine you're hosting aclout for good dinner party.
What two or three queer icons,have inspired you or do you respect that
(35:39):
you'd like to have at the table?
You know, and I probably already sort oftipped my hat a little bit, but I think
somebody like Bayard Rustin and LorraineHansberry, you know, they're those people
whose work I was aware of as a youngperson or even Langston Hughes, the great
(36:03):
poet who I'm not sure if he's even todaytotally acknowledged as having been queer.
But these are people when I was a kid, youknow, I loved their...
I loved the effects of what they weredoing.
I was aware of the March on Washington.
I was only a year old when it happened,but historically it was one of those
(36:24):
things.
Raisin in the Sun, and then there was amusical called Raisin, and I knew that
Lorraine Hansberry was from Chicago, whereI was from, and as a lawyer I knew that
her father had been a plaintiff in alawsuit that involved racially restrictive
covenants, and that was part of theinspiration for that story.
(36:45):
had I known that she was also a queerperson?
My level of understanding of that storyand what her experience was as somebody
who had to remain closeted and so forth.
Nikki Giovanni, these artists whosestorytelling, now we can see how it was
(37:07):
inspired and infused with.
who they were as people trying to livetheir lives and express themselves as
artists that we couldn't know those littlesecrets behind the doors back then.
I would love to get their insights todayto be able to say, hey, how did it feel to
(37:29):
have to keep yourself closeted and tell methose places where you found a way to show
who you truly were?
And think of the change in the feelingthey would have being, being welcomed to a
dinner table to say, be who you are andsay what it is.
They would be shocked that this is wherewe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(37:51):
Exactly.
Well, Terry, thank you so much for all youdo for community.
And thank you for joining me today.
I will be sure to share, the, the Ted talkand other, other ways to get in touch with
you as we, as we promote the episode.
I'm out there, but thank you.
Thanks for the time today.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
(38:11):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure,David.
And to my listeners, happy pride andthanks so much for joining us today.
Please tune in every other Wednesday for anew episode of Cloud for Good.
Follow us on social and visit cloudforgood.com to subscribe to our newsletter.
I hope this episode motivates you to useyour cloud for good to make a difference
(38:32):
in your workplace.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com