S4 Ep15: Move, Heal, and Thrive in the Sport of Life - Interview with Dat Cao, PT OCS

When pain knocks on your door and threatens to steal the joy from the activities you love, it's not always clear how to push through. That's where the wisdom of my personal physical therapist, Dat Cao of Native Physical Therapy, comes into play. This episode is a goldmine for anyone who lives to move and moves to live, offering a deep dive into the transformative power of physical therapy. Dat and I peel back the layers of common misconceptions about pain during physical activity, and we celebrate the undeniable link between movement, recovery, and mental health. For those of us juggling the complexities of life, from career shifts to the challenges of parenting, this conversation is a reminder to lace up your sneakers and keep dancing through life's hurdles.

There's a silent dance that often goes unnoticed—the intricate steps between pushing limits and nurturing recovery. Throughout our discussion, you'll be inspired to rethink the way you view exercise progression, pain management, and the therapist-patient partnership. We stand firm on the philosophy of treating life as the sport it truly is, coaching listeners to not just play but excel at this game. From the importance of consulting healthcare professionals in understanding pain to the potential of treatments like dry needling, this episode is filled with stories and insights that resonate with anyone on a path toward better health.

Lastly, let's talk about self-care—not as a luxury, but a necessity. It's time to shed the guilt and embrace routines that are as refreshing as a morning jog. Dat share's the transformative effects of his first CrossFit class, a testament to the power of community and the motivation to persist.If you're ready to prioritize your well-being and unlock the full potential of your body and mind, then this is the conversation you've been waiting for.

Dat Cao, PT, DPT, Certified Orthopedic Specialist
Native Physical Therapy, Founder and CEO
www.nativept.com

Don't get weird, use your head, it'll all be OK!

Looking for a coach to help you be YOUR best self? Let's get in touch!

www.centerstagethleticscoaching.com
[e-mail]
IG: @teamcsfp
FB: https://www.facebook.com/teamcsfp

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, good morning and hello and welcome to
Coaching in Cocktails, thepodcast.
This is Tina, and I have yetanother special guest with me
today because Ms Brandy is stillcurrently working on her
kitchen and so doesn't have that.
She's remodeling the kitchenand doing some other things.

(00:23):
So I'm just having specialguests upon special guests and
this week I have somebody newwith me.
As many people know, I haveprobably I've had 12 plus I lose
count surgeries, I have lots ofinjuries and lupus and all the
things that go along with that.
So I thought it would be reallycool to have a conversation

(00:45):
with one of the people who hasbeen instrumental in helping
Humpty Dumpty stay put togetherevery time Humpty Dumpty gets
broken, as I like to call myself.
So I have my own personalphysical therapist
extraordinaire with us, dat Cow.
So Dat can you introduceyourself and just tell everybody

(01:07):
a little bit about you and yourbackground and your business
and just who you are.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure Thanks, thanks.
See how long it's been.
It's been like seven years,maybe Eight years.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I was trying to go back and figure out when I had
my hip surgery.
I think that might have been2016.
I'm going to have to go backand look at my notes because I
lose, I lose, count.
But yeah, it's been a while andyou, you helped me recover from
that was the first time I metyou, so give us a little

(01:41):
background on you and what youdo.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Sure, sure.
So I'm Dat.
I've been a physical therapistfor over 13 years now.
I used to work at a outpatientorthopedic clinic connected to
like a larger hospital system.
That's kind of where I met Tinaand started working with her

(02:04):
and I discovered, you know, Ireally enjoy working with the
active population, the runners,weight lifters, people that want
to, you know, compete and stay,you know, in the game of life.
So it wasn't until about sixmonths ago that I kind of
started my own business calledNative Physical Therapy.
I look at it in Annapolis,maryland.
You know, personally I enjoyCrossFit, running, power

(02:31):
boarding, you know, things thatreally keep me in the game and
keep me active with my twolittle girls.
I specialize in dry kneeling,manual treatments, but really
it's, you know, it's an exerciseprogression.
So, you know, finding the rightprescription for each person.
And that's kind of where Ithink I strive in my creativity

(02:53):
and working with patients andkind of meeting them where
they're at because everyone'sdifferent.
So that's kind of the role andmission behind Native Physical
Therapy.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
So what is the native in Native Physical Therapy for?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
you Sure, yeah, yeah, you know I became a physical
therapist, not because you know,I enjoy like the medical field,
but it was the actual skill ofsomething.
You know it was actually havingskills and it's something
that's transferable.
You know to do it anywhere.
Anyone needs physical therapyat some point and I don't have

(03:27):
prescribed medications, I don'thave to.
You know indoctrate people andlike the whole surgical
procedures and you know.
So Native is coming from within,coming from your own.
You know being able to healboth you know, with your
mindsets, with your approach,and you know I think everything

(03:49):
is, you know, begins there andthen learning how to you know,
know and know yourself and thenheal yourself.
You know coming from within.
So that's where the term nativecomes from and my logo, it's an
olive branch.
So not only you know, I thinkmedicine and this journey is a

(04:12):
relationship.
So not that you know I'mdictating and telling you what
to do, but it's a piecemeal ofyou know coming together between
you and me and like the actualprocess and learning how to get
from A to B and kind of meetyour goals.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
So it's a partnership .

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yes, yeah, and it should be yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
And very much like I tell my clients all the time
like I'm not here to dictatewhat you're going to do or not
going to do.
I'm here to give you guidance.
And then we have to have thisopen dialogue and this open
conversation about what you need, what you're feeling, what's
happening, what I think is best,and then find that middle
ground and what's actually goingto work.
Because sometimes what's best,what I think is best I'm sure

(04:56):
you have experience the same isnot actually what's going to
work for the client.
Yeah, the patient, or you know,whatever you call it.
I love that.
You said you know being a thatuse the game of life.
Because I think I told you likeour whole center stage
athletics is coaching for thesport of life, right.
So sport game, it's, it's youknow we treat, we have this

(05:18):
concept called life athleteright.
So we coach a lot ofbodybuilders, but we also coach
a lot of your average.
I don't want to say averageeverybody, nobody's average,
right, but your, your, yoursoccer moms and you're just
women who just want to feelbetter in their lives, never
caring to get on stage and just,you know, feel better and so,
but it's all.
Like you said, it's mental right, we use it's.

(05:40):
It is a sport, life is a sportand if you, if you treat it as
such and you apply the same kindof principles to it and you
kind of go through your life inthat respect.
So I think it was cool becauseI think we have kind of a
similar philosophy in terms ofthat and I like the native from
within too, right, I think thatin the Olive branch.

(06:00):
I think that's all very cool.
I actually didn't know that.
I didn't know that that's akind of a kind of assume.
That's what the native was andI think your Instagram is it
native runner.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, native runner PT Yep.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Okay, so you run a lot.
You do a lot of running, right,Are you?
You're really enjoying races.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, I enjoy like signing up for races.
I'm kind of my quiet period nowwhere I'm more lifting and
doing the CrossFit thing, but I,you know, I sign up for races
to keep me accountable, it'sjust fun.
You know, especially afterCOVID, I really miss that
community of runners.

(06:41):
And so positive, likebodybuilding, right, like you
just cheering each other on,you're, you know, celebrating
each other, you're helping eachother out, you're clapping hands
for each other, I mean it's,it's such a bringing together of
people and mindset and just abig party.
You know like what that's life,right?
You know you gotta enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
And community is so important.
I mean, it's just something I'mactually.
Community and connection Ithink is really important.
Just, you know, whether it'smental or physical health, and I
think finding a community,whatever that is, whether it's
running or bodybuilding orCrossFit or music or art or
whatever your thing is right,like having having some kind of

(07:23):
community.
I think is is really important.
But yeah, that's, that's cool,that's why I like it too.
You know, it's good to I likeI've enjoyed expanding my
community because it was likebodybuilding was the only
community I had for a reallylong time and I was like, oh my
God, is there anything outsideof this world?
Right, so having a littlediversity there.

(07:45):
So I remember one of the reasons, you know, something that
really drew me to you as aphysical therapist, because I
remember right after my hipsurgery, I think I met with
somebody at the end of the videobecause in this practice, where
you know the that used to workin, which is where my all my
orthopedic surgeons work, I havea cornucopia of orthopedic

(08:08):
surgeons in the same practice.
But I remember I think rightafter my surgery I saw somebody
else in the practice.
I think it was my very first,whatever it was like right after
the hip surgery and it was, itfelt like this was one of those
people that was used to dealingwith elderly population of, like

(08:31):
, recovering from hip surgeryand stuff, and it was a lot of
like don't do, you, shouldn't dolike this, take it easy.
And I get that there is anelement of that.
But I remember and then and Idon't know if that was just who
was available for my firstappointment, but my second
appointment was with you and youknow I'm always really open and

(08:53):
honest with every physicaltherapy therapist I've ever
worked with and I'm like I'm anathlete and I need to get back
to work.
Right, like this is.
This is just a bump in the roadfor me.
So how are we going to getthere?
And, and you know, I, you knowmy faith, I'm famous for saying
and I have no, I don'tunderstand like pain tolerance,
so I actually need some.
Because I have such a cause, ofcause I've been driven to hurt

(09:14):
all the time.
I'm like I need somebody totell me like, if it hurts, do I
keep going, or if it hurts, do Istop, or is some discomfort
okay?
Right, because, because I thinkeven when you were helping me
with stretching.
Like a couple of weeks ago whenI came to see you and I was
like, and you're stretching me?
I'm like, yeah, that hurtsreally bad.
And you're like, well, yougotta tell me when it hurts.

(09:35):
But I'm just so used to doingthose things.
So I appreciate that you workto help, that you like working
with athletes.
That's what drew me to you,because I wasn't interested in
somebody telling me what Icouldn't do.
Right, so I was.
I needed somebody to tell me,okay, what can I do?

(09:56):
How are we going to get me backto work?
And then kind of like helpingme through that, more than
because I think that there isthis prevalence C it's probably
a bad word, this that as soon asI feel pain, I'm just not
supposed to do something.
My back hurts, well then Ishouldn't.
I shouldn't do whatever.

(10:17):
My knees hurt that's a famousone.
My knees hurt, so I'm not goingto, so I can't run or whatever
right that pain is.
I'm not saying pain is never anindicator that something's
wrong and you should stop it,but I think you know we were
going to talk a little bit todayabout I just kind of heard this
concept when I was listening tothe David Goggins and Huberman

(10:39):
podcast.
Right the hurt versus harms.
I think that was the hurt whereI heard the term hurt.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that wasthe one where I heard the term
hurt versus harm and hurt being.
Yeah, there's pain, there'sphysical pain or there's
physical discomfort.
Harm being is there an actualinjury or am I injuring myself

(11:00):
further by continuing to workthrough the pain?
I think right.
So I think it doesn't.
Hurt doesn't always meanthere's an injury that's going
to be exacerbated by what you'redoing physically.
That's how I sort ofinterpreted the hurt versus harm
, for example.

(11:21):
I mean, I can use myself as anexample.
I have a lot of joint pain fromlupus.
It hurts.
I'm not actually doing morephysical harm in my physical
endeavors, right, my weighttraining and things like that.
In fact, I'm doing myself adisservice if I stop moving just

(11:44):
because I hurt, right?
So I'm not working out onbroken legs.
I'm not a David Goggins.
I promise I will never run onbroken legs, right, like that's,
and I'll never run.
If I'm running, just look tosee what's chasing me.
Because I'm not, becauserunning is not my thing, but
that's kind of my point, right?

(12:04):
So I think a lot of people andyes, again, I'm not saying that
pain is not a signal from thebody that says pain is a signal
from the body that says stopmost of the time, but it's
evaluation is it for me?
If I were to stop moving, I cantell you the pain is much worse
.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
So I keep moving so that the pain doesn't get worse.
But my pain does not mean I'mcausing more physical harm.
That makes sense to you, right?
Like that's kind of what youand I were chatting about last
time I saw you, at least in mymind, that's what we were
chatting about.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, there's always variousdegrees and it's hard to say
like, am I hurting myselffurther if I keep going?
I always give my patients a setof rules, especially for
runners.
If you're running and it hurtsa little bit and then it goes
away, well, yeah, that's thetype of pain that maybe it was a

(13:04):
little stiff or maybe justsomething I had to work out, and
that's fine.
Sometimes it does take a littlebit of movement and warming up
to kind of get things going tothe right position or just kind
of get your form right.
Something that comes on andstarts to change the way you run
or change your movement.

(13:25):
Well, maybe that's where I haveto.
Instead of running that day,maybe I'm walk running.
So that's kind of your.
You know, there might besomething there that might be a
little bit of a strain, maybeyou went a little bit hard.
So it's just finding thatdegree of activity that can keep
you moving but not necessarilygenerate pain.
Now, if you're running or doingsomething and it really changes

(13:50):
your way that you do everydaylife going up down the stairs,
picking up your kids, that's,you know, that's that's when you
should probably ask for someadvice, maybe a physical
therapist or maybe orthopedist,someone that kind of has some
sort of degree and background,to say, hey, you should do

(14:14):
something about this, and thenthere's totally broken right.
That's the type of pain where Ican't do anything anymore.
I gotta use crutches, gotta goto the ER.
That's another type of pain,that's your emergency room type
pain.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Where there's a pop, a searing pain, a bone sticking
out, you know something alongthose lines, or a pain that gets
progressively worse over time,even with modification, or even,
I guess, without modification,because not everybody's gonna
modify right.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Oh, yeah, I can help you when it's stage two or three
, right, like it hurts I changedwhere Ironic feels better, or
it hurts and it lingers for alittle bit longer than it should
I can definitely help youwithin about, you know, a 10, 15
minute consult.
We have some sort of idea ofwhat's going on, how to modify
it.
You know what could be causingit or do you need to seek

(15:12):
further?
You know, addressing imaging orwhatever.
Once it kind of gets to thatpoint where you're like I gotta
go see a doctor or somethingabout it, you know, and for
someone's head, if that's thecase, then that's gonna take
much longer.
You know that's kind of whereyou have to.
You have to do something aboutit.
It used to be yeah, was it?
Rice rest, ice compression,elevation.

(15:36):
You know I like to take the Rout and put in active movement.
You know some sort of activitythat is going to improve it.
Get fluid going to it, getblood flow into it.
That's where the magic is, youknow, that's where you know
someone comes to me with, like,a acute injury.

(15:56):
Yeah, rest it, but really keepit moving.
You know, cause it's thatstiffness that's really gonna
cause the irritation or theprolonged healing, say tendon
injuries.
It used to be that you know yourest it and you don't do
anything to it until the paingoes away.

(16:17):
Well, now the research showslike, yeah, hop on a bike for 10
minutes, doing something lightto kind of keep it moving,
really generates the you know,the flow of fluid, the flow of
blood to it to help the healingprocess.
So you know it's a in various PTspecialized in different things
.
I mean, honestly, when yougraduate PT school, you're a

(16:38):
generalist like you can go inany direction.
You can go work in women'shealth, you can go work with
babies, so a lot of PT's kind ofgraduate that and that's kind
of it and that's the background,that's their knowledge.
But there are PT's thatspecialize.
So you know I specialize inorthopedics and sports.
So you know, having thatbackground gives me a little

(17:00):
more insight about all right,how can I treat the injured
athlete, which is much differentthan treating grandma with a
total hip replacement, right,but yet the education can be the
same.
So you know when, when I don'tblame the PT, I don't, you know,
it's just like their background.
Knowledge and finding the rightpatient with the right physical

(17:21):
therapist is so important Justfinding, like the right doctor,
or find the right coach you knowfor the right sport is highly,
highly important, you know,especially for your goals.
So that's kind of how I viewpain and a lot of people kind of
get into the mindset all right,I'm injured, I can't do
anything, but what's the nextbest thing you could do, like

(17:44):
what's the next thing that youcould do to keep you moving?
So for you it was like anon-weight bearing hip injury.
Well, can I row?
Yeah, you can row.
Or can I do upper body work?
Yeah, as long as you kind ofstay within these protocols,
right, like every surgeon has aprotocol about how they want to
heal the hip, and with yours itwas yeah, it's tough.

(18:04):
It's like six weeks non-weightbearing, slowly progressed in a
certain motion.
I thought.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
I was going to lose my ever-loving mind in six weeks
that I was on crutches and Icouldn't, I couldn't, I'm so
used to my husband calls me acricket because, like, in the
kitchen, I'm like, I'm just fast, I'm just like I'm doing a ton
of things.
You can't be fast doing anythingin the kitchen while you're
hobbling around on crutches orI'm like, and then I'm pushing

(18:30):
the limits, because then I'mhopping around on one foot and
I'm probably which is easierthan hopping around on crutches
and then I'm probably at risk oflike, well, at some point I
might trip and lose my balanceand put my leg down, but I
switch the limits.
I remember when I was finallyallowed to do like no tension on
my spin bike.
Yeah, it was the most boringthing you could, possibly

(18:57):
because I am.
I mean, you're talking aboutlike pedals, that like you could
just like spin them with yourpinky finger, right, Like you
just, but it for me, because I'mso used to movement.
If I could, there was no way Iwas just going to sit for six
weeks right, Like I was likeI've got to find a way to move
my body.
So yeah, like you said so,either I was doing some upper

(19:19):
body work or, when I was able to, no tension, spin on my spin
bike.
You know it was anything tojust get my blood moving,
because for me and you may feelthe same way we talked a little
bit about the mental aspect ofit.
Right, like the within.
That's sort of my drug, that'smy dopamine hit right.

(19:43):
So, without it.
Yeah, life feels a whole lotharder for me if I'm not getting
some, and I'll share it I knowI've shared this in podcasts
before like I used to be veryblack and white and all or
nothing, right.
So when I was in the throes ofmy bodybuilding career, when I
hit my first patch of injuries,which was in 20, I started

(20:06):
competing in 2005, and Icompeted too much and I did too
much too soon and I wrecked mybody and I ended up with a torn
bicep at both ends right, sodistal and in my shoulders so
and then I ended up withback-to-back surgeries in 2007
for a torn bicep at the elbow,torn bicep slap, repair the

(20:29):
shoulder all in the same arm, ofcourse and I did nothing for a
year.
And then I went into a severedepression and I gained a ton of
weight because I was in thismindset of like, well, I can't
lift like a bodybuilder, so Ican't do anything I had it was
all in my shoulder.
I could have been walking onthe treadmill, I could have done

(20:50):
, I could have walked myneighborhood, I could have done
anything, but I just had thismindset.
I was so all or nothing, and soit was kind of getting through
that and sort of making my wayback by 2009 to the stage and
then realizing that, like Ithink I had to, I went through
that, that pretty seriousdepression and the surgeries and

(21:10):
stuff and sort of lost myidentity as a bodybuilder and
mentally was just in a reallybad place.
And then I started to realize,as I started to move my body
again after about a year andthat I felt better.
And it was that in all of thatthat I realized I was like okay,
like mentally, I need to bemoving, period.

(21:31):
It doesn't have to be the way Ithink it's going to be.
It doesn't.
It's not.
You can't have all or nothing,black or white mentality,
because I think a lot of peoplefall into that Well, if I can't
run, I won't do anything, right?
Versus do a run job that day,or versus just do a walk that
day, or versus do yoga that day,right?

(21:51):
Sure, now at least I've learnedso much over the years since
getting back in 2009 and I'vehad so many more surgeries and
stuff.
Now I know I'm just like okay,well, whatever I can do is what
I'll do, right, like, if it'snot what I want to and there are
days even I go out into mygarage gym and I'm like I can't.

(22:14):
Mentally I want to do so muchmore than physically my body
like will let me do on thatgiven day and I'm like, okay,
well, I can't do, meant, what Iwant to do mentally is lift this
weight and do these things.
And I'm like physically I'lljust get on treadmill, like this
morning.
I was like, well, I'm justwalking on the treadmill this
morning, I can't do what Imentally want to do, but I got,

(22:36):
but I can do something, right,and because I know that that's
going to be better than nothing,but anyway.
So that was just kind of a long, you know winded story about
getting that Kind of recoveryfor me and realizing that I just
I remember I even took a I wasso happy To get on that stupid
spend bike with no tension.

(22:58):
I was just, you know, and I'mnot a good patient I I mean I
don't know how much of a hardtime I gave you.
I'm pretty sure I gave you ahard time on more than occasion.
I was like I can't do this, I'mnot gonna do it this way or that
.
You know, I'm, I was always the, but I used to be able to, and
you know, and I'm like, yeah,well, tina, you can't do it

(23:19):
anymore.
So right, was I that horrible?

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, really.
No, I want to say horrible.
You were, you were challengingand this is what it takes.
You know, like you have to, youhave to, you have to challenge
the medical professional.
Like, like we get in such aroutine and in such a high
volume setting you're seeing 16,14 to 16 patients a day I mean
you just get burnt out.

(23:42):
This is, you know, this is themedical field.
This is like dealing withpeople's injuries and lives, of
livelihoods.
But you know, the doctors seeit and we see it.
A lot of the PAs, you know, wejust get I don't know what
happened to the medical system,but that's, that's kind of where
we're at.
We kind of treat patients in asa as a number and you kind of

(24:05):
get in the mindset like well,this is the surgery, this is
what you have to do, and you andI am the Professional and you
are the patient, this is whatyou need to do when you get
challenged.
I mean, it makes us think like,is it really that the case,
that this has to be the way?
Even now, the six week non-wayparent protocol, like Well, yeah
, there are people doingresearch out there say, can we

(24:26):
just do two weeks?
You know, we used to have towear a brace after the hip
surgery, after the label surgery, and now you don't, because you
know the orthopedic group thatwe're referring to.
I mean, they're fantastic like.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
I wouldn't Like my kids go there.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
They're great doctors .
I mean I love working with them.
I mean they like my daughter.
She broke her arm Four weeksago and I was able to get her in
and she's getting her cast offtomorrow.
So you know, I mean they'relike such a great group and the
reason I like them all isbecause they're all active

(25:01):
people you know they bike andand and row and run.
You know, and so they understand, you know the athlete and
that's kind of their the way weprogress things.
So you know, if I had never gotthat challenge, I'd never say
like, yeah, is this, is this theway we should do it?
You know, are we, is thisprotocol like the way it should

(25:24):
be?
And we've done updates forcalls over the years.
You know, I've done theresearch and say like, what
other people don't want, youknow, is that okay?
So?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
And then it be dependent on the person, on the,
on the patient, too right.
I mean, you know there's allkinds of protocols, like in the
functional medicine realm tooright.
Like, oh well, if you have thisgut issue, then this is the
protocol, and take thesesupplements and do this thing,
and and we, we.
I can't do a protocol as a, asa coach.
I can't do the same protocolfor every single client.

(25:54):
That.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
I work if.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
I have to Understand that particular client and then
develop a strategy.
Right, like I don't.
I don't like protocols.
I mean I get, I get that youknow you're always gonna have
this average like after laborsurgery, six weeks.
But then there has to besomebody that's able to look at
that and go, okay, does thismake sense for this patient?

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah, someone who's really active, who has a
good met Metabolic system, like,yeah, the bone's gonna heal
faster.
You know it's not gonna takethe eight weeks that it takes,
grandma, because you know it'sjust naturally, that's, that's
the way it goes.
But someone that and there'ssome some truth protocol like

(26:36):
you know, If I have a ACL tearand you had the surgery.
It does take time, you know thisyou could get repeat hemorrhage
to see the healing process.
But you know, it does take afull year to get back to sport
Because that's when you're gonnasee like the healing take place
and the tendon become strongenough.
So you know, there are some,some background to that.
But other protocols, like youknow, used to be like alright,

(27:01):
anti-hip replacement, you can'tdo a, b and C.
And now it's like you could.
But you know, let's, let's not,let's eliminate the extreme
movement, because when you tellsomeone that you can't do a, b
and C, well, they come, becomereally scared about moving at
all.
So you know, but you tell them,you know, just, just, don't do
crazy Yoga moves.
They're like, oh yeah, I get it.
So it's, it's how you pitch it,it's how you put it out there

(27:24):
and it's helping the patientunderstand, like, what is safe
and what's not safe.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
So I think that's why I would always say, okay, I
need to know what not to do.
Like, like, tell me the extreme, absolutely positively, don't
do this.
But what?
So?
I like, give me, like I need arange, like I need, give me the
wiggle room.
Like, what can I, what can I do?

(27:50):
That Maybe is it advisable, butif I'm careful I could.
And then what is the drop dead?
like, absolutely, do not do thisright, that kind of thing like
that at least that's, that's howI am, and at least I think
that's probably how a lot ofathletes Would would be verses,
and I think there's a differentmindset, don't you?
Don't you think like?

Speaker 2 (28:11):
yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
That I would say a lot of true athletes.
That is going to be the mindsetand verses people who are I
Hate using average, but your,your average person, your
weekend warrior who's just likeI'm gonna go out, you know, for
a jog or trying to lose weightright, or something along those
lines, trying to get physicallyactive for the first time, and

(28:32):
they're like, oh well, my kneeshurt, can't do it right, or oh
well, that hurts, I can't do it.
So I shouldn't write using itmore as like using that as a
crutch or an excuse to Almost tonot get the movement.
Yeah if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, my my favorite videos reels on Instagram.
Or Like grandma bodybuildingright, like you're 80 old, like
picking up heavy stuff and Keepthem moving and staying flexible
and staying active.
Because, because those are myheroes, like those are the ones
that they've they've seen it all, they've done it all and no

(29:13):
one's gonna tell them to stopRight.
They're almost breakingBarriers and conditioning Things
that that you know.
Society will tell us likethat's not supposed to be.
You supposed to get older andweaker and Not do those things
anymore.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes, fuck that.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
I want to break all the barriers right In.
My grandmother was the same andit's so funny because she was
in her 80s and she's continuedto motion.
Heart conditions, you know,knees hurt, like everything's
like swelling up on her, and yetso and and truly because she
had like actual heart failureand, you know, flew it on her
lungs and stuff, and in and outof the hospital.

(29:58):
This woman was in and out ofthe hospital.
She'd get out of the hospitalafter her late six treatment and
come home and mow the grass,wow, with a walking mower right
or push mower, not walking mower.
Yeah you know, and and mygrandfather was the same way he
couldn't walk, he had neuropathyand he couldn't really feel his
legs and stuff anymore.
But I can tell you I went tothe gym with that man and he

(30:20):
would get out of his wheelchairand climb on to a piece of
equipment and you know, becausehe knew we could still use his
upper body, he did everything hecould to like keep his upper
body strong and he would try tokeep his lower body strong
because he knew it was onlygoing to be worse if he wasn't.
And we used to fuss it bygrandmother about you've got to
rest, you got to sit down.
And we just got to a pointwhere it was like, well, if

(30:43):
there's, I mean she did passaway, but it was like if the
woman passes away, push in alawn mower Because that's what
she enjoys, then that's gonna beit.
Right, like we have to.
I think you and I were talkingtoo about, like this whole
concept of like longevity If youdon't move it, you will lose it

(31:06):
.
Right, like it gets worse.
It gets worse for me if I don'tmove.
It gets worse for us as we getolder if we don't move Like I
have a relative who had two hipreplacements, one right after
the other.
The hip replacements werenecessary because of lack of
movement, right.
It was probably a little bit oflike oh I'm sitting all the

(31:28):
time, my hips hurt, my hips killme if I sit all the time, like
it is the worst thing I could do, and so then it gets worse.
So I do less and less hips hurt, worse and worse.
Now I literally it's.
The pain is just excruciating.
Finally go to the doctor and,oh well, you need two hip
replacements.
Well, had you maybe kept movingfive years beforehand instead

(31:50):
of sitting for the last fiveyears, that might not be where
we are right, because had youkept those joints active, then
we get two brand new hips.
If I had two brand new hips, Iwould be thrilled.
So I don't wanna necessarily gothrough a hip replacement
surgery, but if I have to, Iwill and I will be thrilled to
have new hips.
So, and then this relative juststill doesn't, still doesn't

(32:14):
move, and it makes me fuckingbonkers that, like you have this
, literally this renewed life.
There's no pain there anymore,no pain.
You can't possibly have pain.
You have two brand new hips,right, and the source of the
pain is gone and it's.
I can see the stiffening, I cansee the sitting and it's just

(32:38):
like wow, what was all that for?
And that point you made aboutscaring people into not doing
things, that was exactly whatwas happening during recovery.
Right, I was like I just keptsaying it.
Like that's not what thedoctors mean, right, like it
does not mean like you'resupposed to get up and walk
around the house, right?

(32:59):
No, should you be squatting allthe way down?
No, they said, don't squat allthe way down.
Right, like you shouldn't besquatting.
You should be getting up out ofyour chair and moving around as
much as possible with yourwalker.
You know, whatever the case was, you know, during the recovery
process.
But man, I can't even tell you.
Like that's just that, just itjust makes me crazy to see

(33:21):
people waste their bodies.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
I think there's like a definitely a huge mental
aspect of that, you know.
I mean, when you said yourself,like the mental challenges that
you went through, going throughinjuries, you kind of have to
shift your perspective in howyou see yourself, you know.
I mean, there was a time, evenfor myself, where I just didn't

(33:44):
like myself, you know, like Ididn't work out as much, I
couldn't get out there.
I was a new parent.
You know I'm working a job thatyou know is challenging me
mentally, physically.
I became a supervisor.
You know, no one tells you howto be a supervisor.
You just kind of like you're agood PT and all of a sudden like

(34:05):
people like you and you're likehere you go, you're trying to
be a supervisor?

Speaker 1 (34:08):
Hey, you should supervise people too.
Yeah, that's a whole otherconversation about, like, people
who are good at their jobs justbeing thrown into you know,
management material, justbecause you're a good at your
job, but anyway.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
So, yeah, I mean, there was a time where I just
didn't like myself.
My wife could tell me likesometimes I just didn't even
take showers for like a week,just because I just didn't, you
know, feel like I deserved it.
You know I just felt like if Iworked out, yeah, I could take a
shower then.
But yeah, it was a struggle andI think COVID kind of made it

(34:43):
more challenging because youknow you're so isolated, so not
having that community, andthat's why I push it so much now
for both people that areinjured and not injured, because
you know there are people thatwill challenge you to do better
things.
Or you know, you see, there's aguy at my gym and you know he's

(35:07):
such a good shape and, as aCrossFit athlete, like really
killing it, and I always makethe excuse well, well, he
doesn't have kids, you know.
Or he's younger than me.
He does have kids, you know,and we're the same age.
There's no excuse.
So seeing it done by someoneelse will push me to do and be
better.

(35:27):
And so it starts there, likejust learning how to take a look
at yourself, give yourselfgrace, take some time and really
challenge your views.
You know of being undeserving.
You know, and we always takebetter care of other people than
we take care of better care ofourselves, especially those who

(35:49):
are coaches, mentors, moms, dads, and it's like that.
You know the airplane.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Put your mask on before anybody else.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Totally, totally.
And healthcare professionals.
We're so bad at it.
We're so bad at it Oneadvocating for ourselves, you
know, and then two we're so intune to even my wife.
She's a speech pathologist,right.
She wasn't feeling well.
It's like why don't you stickthe day off?
She's like I have this e-mailand this patient that I really

(36:22):
need to get in and he hasn't hadlike two good sessions string
together.
I'm like how are you gonna takecare of that person?
You can't take care of yourselfyou know, so it's a process,
you know.
We're still kind of goingthrough it.
There's no writing answer, youknow.
And there's no way to kind ofgo through it.
So you know, for those peoplewho don't see it, it's hard for

(36:46):
them to get moving, for whateverreason.
Maybe they don't value it,their mindset's different, and
that's where I think coachingand it's hard to change people
unless they're ready to change.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
So for people.
I got it, it is true, as much asI can push it, and even for my
parents, it's hard to tell themto stay active.
They're not people that workout or exercise and I know it's
a challenge.
And the only way I saw themactually get moving it was
because I was getting marriedand my dad wanted to look good,

(37:22):
my mom wanted to look good.
So that started them on adifferent journey and they
started to feel better afterthey do it.
Now it's a little different.
Now it's kind of like they feellike they're getting older.
So it's gonna take a little bitof time to change that mindset
too.
But yeah, that's kind of whereI'm at with that.

(37:42):
But with the joint issue, Imean going back to that runners
don't get new placements.
I mean they do but compared tothe general population, it's
like 5% of runners maybe get newplacements Compared to the
general population who it'ssomewhere between like 10, 15%

(38:05):
that will eventually get a newplacement If you take like the
total amount of people that do.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Why is that?
Is it because runners are usingtheir knees and their knees are
staying quote unquote healthierthan a sedentary person who's
not.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, I mean, I've looked into this research like
what causes arthritis?
There's a book, whole books,written on it and there's really
no A, b and C that causesarthritis.
You divide it to rheumatoid,which is autoimmune disease.
People have rheumatoid factorsthat bodies attack the joints

(38:46):
and you looked at osteoarthritis, which they call wear and tear.
Things that will cause thatprior injury is probably the
biggest factor.
Body mass index is the otherfactor, so the bigger you are,
the more likely you'll have anew placement or something.
But other than that, there's noother factor and there has to

(39:11):
be some underlying inflammation.
There has to be somethingthat's driving that joint
inflammation and there's noresearch that shows that.
There's no research that'sagainst that either.
So what causes jointinflammation and why is it that
more developed countries havemore of these joint issues?

(39:34):
You don't see plantar fasciitisin India or Vietnam as much,
but here it's huge.
There's some underlyinginflammation or because of diet,
your standard American diet,your sad diet.
That's the right thing.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Sad is the right acronym for the standard
American diet, that's for day,I'm sure.
But you're 100% right.
I mean, and if you really lookat the data in wealthy countries
versus less developed countries, or what have you?
The obesity rate?
just the health issues, thecardiac issues chronic diseases,

(40:17):
all of those things, and that'swhat it comes down to.
And it doesn't mean thateverybody with a shitty diet is
gonna have a knee replacement.
It also doesn't mean people whohave a really healthy diet
won't need a knee replacement.
It's just so.
There are genetic factorsinvolved.
There's autoimmune factorsinvolved and different types of

(40:38):
joint diseases and things likethat.
But the best thing you can dofor yourself is to have movement
of some sort and eathealthfully.
And then the mental aspect,because all of it, I think
really it all comes down tomindset and being able to do

(40:59):
those other things really doescome down to because, like you
said, like, do you value it?
And if you don't, why don't youvalue it?
So that just takes a lot ofintrospect on your own part and
kind of figuring out like andlow grade depression, serious
depression, those things canreally hinder.
But also every I mean I wouldsay every scientific study or

(41:26):
anecdotal or otherwise, it saysthe absolute best thing you can
do for depression is movement.
Yes, yeah, right, I meanthere's nothing to dispute that,
right, would you agree?
Have you ever seen anythingthat disputes that?

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, even my last primary care follow up, yeah,
because we talk about it.
You know we, because I was onantipressants for maybe like six
months and you know my lastprimary care fall she's like, oh
, how are you doing?
You know I was like, oh, Istarted CrossFit three times a
week.
She put, you know, she put down.

(42:06):
Yeah, you probably feel muchbetter.
You know, your mood's probablybetter.
And my wife tells me all thetime, like you know, so we
prioritize and we, you know how,like all right, you're going to
orange there at what time?
Great, I'll have the kids.
And then you go to CrossFit,these days I'll have the kids.
And then, you know, only in thelast year I'd say like we, we
do that for each other, where weprioritize that time and make

(42:28):
each other do it, because thenwe're, we're better people with
better parents, we're betterspouses, we're better, you know,
medical practitioners.
So that's kind of where weprioritize our movement.
And I see it in you too, I meanyou, every day.
You know, even on the, evenyour last Instagram post about
hey, you know, like not feelinggood, not doing good, choose

(42:52):
your, choose your heart right,choose your, choose your
challenge for the day, and whenyou prioritize is that like you
know just 20 minutes, you knowlike just go out and for a walk.
I mean, it really does changeyour, your mental aspect.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Well, and sometimes you have to force it right.
The reality is and you knowwe've done an empty dump podcast
on motivation, right, so it's,you know, people, your
motivation has to be intrinsic.
It's not.
It has to, you know, besomething that, like I'm doing
this for my health or I'm doingthis because I have to.
Like I, I move because I haveto, right, I know, and not

(43:28):
because somebody's got a gun tomy head.
But I know that I mean, well,mortality has a gun to my head,
right?
So that's how I look at it.
It's no different than brushingmy teeth.
For me, it is just, you know,do I want to keep my teeth?
You know, my dentist alwayssays, you know, only brush the
teeth you want to keep.
It's like, only move the bodythat you want to keep.

(43:50):
It's, it's kind of that, thatsame thing.
But I also know that, like itjust I know, for me to feel even
halfway okay, even on myshittiest days, if I'm not
moving, it's it, you know it, itit's it's way worse.
And because I have been throughthat depression, I've seen both
sides of it, I under, and itsounds like you have too right,

(44:10):
Like you kind of go through thatreally dark period and you see
what, what the difference is andand how much better that is.
But yeah, I, if you, if you'renot challenging yourself to do
something, and it doesn't haveto be like I'm not asking people
to squat 200 pounds and notasking anybody to go to orange
theory or cross fit or anythingright Like go for a two minute

(44:32):
walk around your block, get upand, you know, do a couple laps
in your house up and don't dothat.
Right, it's just.
You know, I just posted thisgoofy little I don't know what's
some little cartoon TikTokthing where you know, like a
voiceover I've gotten, I keepgetting these.
It's this little cartoon likething and it's just like

(44:53):
somebody saying I didn't feel, Idon't feel well today.
I posted this on my team pageso my clients could see it and
it was like a therapist couchlittle cartoon.
I didn't feel well today.
And the therapist like well,did you go outside today?
No, did you drink water today?
No, did you did you?
I'm going to say did you gobeat with it?
Were you around anybody today?

(45:14):
No, did you eat healthy today?
No, did you get enough sleeptoday?
No, oh wait, I did get enoughsleep.
And then it just like it's justlike all the things that
because the person was like Idon't feel good today.
Well, did you do anything tofeel good today?

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Right.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Right To the things that are supposed to help you
feel good today.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Did you show yourself some love?

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Did you show yourself some love?

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, I mean any of that Like did you do anything to
take care of yourself?

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Because self, you know, self love isn't.
It's not selfish right, or selfcare is not selfish.
Yes, to me it's.
It's, it's a necessity, itreally is.
They put your own mask onbefore you, anybody else's and
good Lord, I can't deal with theplaying the martyr with people

(46:03):
anymore and the I'm too busy andI'm too important, and this,
that and the other thing, andI'm just like, nope, you're not
too busy.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
You're not too important.
We both in there.
You know, we both in there.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Nope.
Well, and you know, a commentthat somebody always used to say
to me is Well, I don't know howyou do it all and I'm like the
only way I do it all is becauseI do it all.
Yeah, I, I couldn't do all thethings I do If I wasn't doing
all the things I do.
If that makes sense, right,like it's getting up every

(46:37):
morning in my routine andworking out in some way.
Right, it is eating a certainway every day.
It is doing certain things inmy routine.
That is what keeps me able todo all the things that I do,
right, does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah, you have systems like you have like
routines and systems and and,and really the mental challenge
with any type of new activity oror even even like getting the
intrinsic motivation.
Sometimes you don't havemotivation, so but I have a
system set up.
I know I'm the, you know I goto CrossFit at Friday at 515,

(47:18):
and that's that's just.
That's just what I do and Idon't have to think about it.
I just go.
You know, and that's the beautyof it, there's a coach there
and there's a workout you haveto do and go through it and you
feel better and you know youjust have a system set up
sometimes.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
But let me ask you this.
Let me start I don't mean tointerrupt you, so because we've
both had to kind of like breakout of a depression and get into
create these systems right,create these habits.
Yeah, how did you make yourselfgo to that first CrossFit class
?
Because now it's now, you loveit and now it's just it's who
you are and what you do.

(47:52):
But before it was who you areand what you did.
Yeah, what was the?
What was the mindset in that?
Did you have to fight yourselfto go?
Did you plan it a couple timesand not go?
Or did you just set yourintention, didn't really want to
go, but you're like I said I'mgoing to go, I'm going to go.
Like, what was it for you?
How did you get there the firsttime?

Speaker 2 (48:14):
So I, over the summer I had trained for a few races,
so the Nautilus 10 miler I doevery year as a medical runner,
and then I did the burden handhalf marathon, which is in
September.
So I always kind of playedaround with CrossFit.
You know I went to a couple oflike just sweat workouts with

(48:35):
with 12 labors in Annapolis andyou know I had a co-work event
right there so it was kind ofeasy to see and I was always so
motivated.
You know it was something that,like you know, I haven't played
with the barbell in a long timeand I was like, you know I used
to miss that.
So as a runner, you know Inoticed that I was okay.
You know I wasn't necessarilythriving, I wasn't necessarily

(48:57):
getting better.
And then doing the half burdenhand half marathon, which if you
ever get a chance, I mean it'sit's up in Pennsylvania or by
Lancaster, it's run by the Amishand the Amish will run it in
full Amish regalia.
But then I saw like, like allthese older people running by me

(49:17):
in the half marathon, I'm likeyou got to get your shit
together.
You get old and slow man.
So I was looking at differentthings and, you know, always dip
my toes in it, but never reallyfully committed.
And I was like, what if I did?
What would it be if I fullycommitted, if I was 85 in my

(49:41):
deathbed and looking back on mylife and I was 41 again, how?
What do I do differently?
Hell, yeah, I would do CrossFit.
You know I would.
I would just show up,embarrassed, a beginner,
beginner mindset, and just do it.
So even that first time I wentto the CrossFit gym coach Eric

(50:04):
Eric, you know it was, it wasfinding some place new.
It was, you know, like, what doI do about this parking
situation?
And it was all.
It was very scary.
But you know, you show up andthe community there is so
welcoming hey, you know, welcome.
You know this is what we do.
Everyone like introducethemselves.
There's a very kind of like Imissed that.

(50:24):
We're working out with peopleeven going to the gym and that's
such a challenge and it's sointimidating Sometimes when you,
you know, walk around and seepeople lifting weights, like no
one's talking to each other,everyone has headphones on.
But in this community, yeah,like, people help each other out
.
You got to coach watching you.
You know you're going to havelike what could work out.
You modify it if you need to,and they show you like how to

(50:45):
modify it.
And even then I was like do I,you know, do I belong here?
You know, it took like thecoach texting me again.
It's like, hey, you know, Ihadn't seen a while, like what's
up with that.
I was like you know what, let'sdo it, you know so I committed
three times a week and I did it,you know, just kind of keep
going.
And all of a sudden I see thenew guy and I remember myself

(51:06):
there and I welcome him and it'ssuch like a wonderful microcosm
of community and people pushingyou to do better and be better.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
So yeah, and I think that's it's so important and
it's you know concept that I'malways preaching, especially to
like new clients and stuff.
It's like just one thing, right.
I don't know if you've everseen the movie.
Brittany runs a marathon, it's,I think it's I think it's like
one of that we used to play atour retreat every year because
it's such a shining example ofjust one thing.

(51:38):
You got to take one step, right.
You got to what she do.
She ran one block and it wasfucking miserable and she hated
it.
Right, and it first, and then,and then the next time you go a
little further, and the nexttime you go a little further,
right, and so.
But it's just one thing.
We don't do all the things atonce, right?
I don't ever ask a client tolike drink all the water, get

(52:00):
all the sleep, go to the gymfive days a week and meditate
five days a week and eat all thevegetables and the fruit and
change their diet and doeverything all at once.
That's insanity and it's arecipe for disaster, right?
So we have to have it stack andwe kind of, like I say, start
small to build big.
You have to take these littlebaby steps and this really cool

(52:22):
meme.
That's like a picture of twoladders and it's one with like
little rungs that are like likeI mean in the picture, right,
they're like a half an inchapart.
There's a whole bunch of littlerungs and then there's ones that
are like the rungs are like 10feet apart and it's like the
little person at the bottom andit's like, okay, which one of
these are you going to actuallybe able to get up quick, more
quickly?
Right, you do this one littlestep at a time versus like

(52:42):
trying to get.
I can't even get to the firstrung because I've set it and set
that bar so high and right.
I'm just like, okay, like get,if you're only getting 2000
steps a day, why don't we try toget three to tomorrow?
Right?
If you only drink 60 ounces ofwater today, let's try to do 70
tomorrow, right?
Or we just focus on one thingand then all those little

(53:05):
successes.
So that first time you went wasprobably really hard and really
uncomfortable, and even maybethe second, third time you went
was probably still not supercomfortable, but you started to
be like, okay, well, I did thisonce, so the second time wasn't
as scary, maybe the third timewasn't as scary, and then it you
know.
But if you don't ever take thatfirst step and I kind of love

(53:26):
what you said about like, if I'm85 year old, jack sitting in my
deathbed, what would I want my41 year old self to do?
Right, Like what would?
What would?
What would I do Like.
I'm so much more afraid of notdoing something and wishing I
had the doing it and failing atit or feeling a fool, or you

(53:50):
know it's again.
It goes back to like chooseyour heart.
You got to make yourselfuncomfortable every single day
in some way.
Right, do something you don'twant to do.
That's the only way to buildresiliency and it is the way
that you build habits, becauseyou don't know, unless the only
failure is just not is, is justnot trying, and then before you
know it, it does become who youare.
I've been.
You know I I can't, I can usemyself as an example, but I know

(54:14):
I've been training since I was21 years old, so 30 years now.
So is doing that hard for me?
No, like that, literally isjust who I am right, drinking
water is the same thing.
I don't ever get less than likea half a gallon and a half.
If not, you have two gallons ofwater a day and and I fight

(54:37):
with clients all the time thatwon't drink their water, and I
fight with clients that, likeyou know, refuse to like really
develop healthy sleep habits.
It's a constant fight for on alot of things, but it really
it's just you know doing thatone little thing, one small
thing at a time, because I'msure when you first started
running it probably did not comenaturally to you.

(54:58):
You probably I don't knowanybody who their first run was
like that was the best thing Iever did.
Everybody who runs for thefirst time is like man, that
fucking sucks.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
Oh, you're only shitting yourself.
The first time I ran, so it was, it was rough, I mean yes, and
then you went back right.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
So there was something about it that that
made you decide to like do itagain.
But yeah, I think I mean Ithink our conversation went in a
little bit of a differentdirection than maybe we started
off.
But I think this is fabulous.
I think I didn't know the youknow, depression aspect and like

(55:33):
getting into CrossFit and stuff, and I think that that's really
cool that you shared that.
But if you had, you know, fromyour physical therapy
perspective if you had like one,two or three different pieces
of advice that you know youwould say to anybody and
everybody about longevity,keeping their body moving, so

(55:56):
that maybe they don't have tocome see you, or when they
should come see you, or you knowhow people should should like
the number one, two and threepieces of advice that you would
give to people.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I think pain guidance is
helpful.
You know I think we talkedabout it already where you know
if it hurts and it just kind ofgoes away, yeah, keep, keep,
keep moving, you know, but ithurts and it starts to linger,
you know things, things kind oflinger.
There's a lot of opportunitythere.
You know.
Even just Maryland itself is a,is a.

(56:31):
You know it's called openaccess day.
You can see any physicaltherapist anytime, without
referral, like you go and knockon their door or call them up
and Say, hey, you know, now yourinsurance might say something
different.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Sure it does.
My insurance company disagrees,but you're the but your
business now you're not.
You don't take insurance right.
So you're doing more or less aprivate practice, which yeah.
I think a lot more.
I personally think that that'sopening the opportunity for a
lot more people to do it,because what you, I don't.
I think, when it comes down toit, a lot of times, what you

(57:08):
charge is not much differentthan I would pay for my copay.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And and even for myself, mywife, like she, she's going to
do like All this hormone testing, because you know she wasn't
gonna answer, it's like it.
Just, you know You're, you'rea1c, looks fine, your classroom
it's fine, good, I'll see youlater, but she doesn't feel
great, you know.
So is there something else thatwe look?
So, yeah, we, you know we'reworking with like function, that

(57:32):
is, you know I'm gonna get mytests, myself tested for stuff.
Just make sure I'm optimizing myhealth right yeah feeling good
and that's the thing, like Ithink, with, with with joint
issue, muscle pain, like otherways for you to optimize
yourself, like, yeah, keepmoving, you know you, you take
some time and make sure all yourjoints are Moving, or your

(57:54):
knees straightening.
Can you get good hip internalrotation?
Does your back extension lookgood?
You know, if those are likethings that you can't you know,
or things that maybe you weredoing before that you can't now
like, yeah, get it checked out.
You know A lot of people offerlike just screenings and and
it's, it's.
Most of them are free.
You know I do it once a month,that Draft and yoga, and I'll

(58:16):
probably offer it at my clinicat some point where people just
come in with questions and askCuz I don't know, like I don't
know how to change my oil, soI'd take someone change it.
I could probably learn.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Zero interest in changing my own oil, so I'm
gonna take a take a time forthat you know, and I have time
for it.
I don't want to do it.
That's not even money I care tosave.
I'm just gonna I'm gonna paysomebody to do it Exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
So why gamble with your health?
I mean, just think about hipissues, right?
If you're sitting, more wellthe research shows that shortens
up to hip flexors, and thetighter your hip flexors are,
the more compression that causesat the hip.
More compression means, yeah,lack of blood flow.
It means lack of blood flowalso means degeneration.

(59:04):
Your body knows if you're notusing it, and if you're not
using it, then it starts tobreak it down and use it for
other things.
Your body's very smart and veryefficient.
If you're sitting all day andyour back's more in lumber
flexions and extension, yeah,it's gonna get stiff that way.
So when you have to do adeadlift, of course it's gonna
hurt.
Your hamstrings are tight, yourhip flexors are tight, your
lower core is weak and you tryto pick up something heavy yeah,

(59:26):
it's gonna hurt your back.
So, everyone's dead.
Everyone has their way thatthey're gonna approach life and
their physical fitness, butsometimes getting a little bit
of advice from someone isactually free.
So avoid the YouTubes, avoidthe Google.
Dr Google, dr, google, dr,google there are lots of good

(59:51):
stuff out there, but it's allabout bad stuff, lots of bad
stuff.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Oh yeah, I do lots of Googling and I try a lot of
things on my own and then I'mlike I can't do this on my own.
And then that's when I find youand the dry needling to me is
like, I think, one of the bestinventions on the planet.
If somebody hasn't done it, Ihighly recommend.

(01:00:16):
Cupping has been great, but dryneedling.
People ask me what is dryneedling?
I always said, well, it'sacupuncture without the chi.
Sure there's no chi involved.
There's nothing relaxing aboutit.
It's usually a little bit morepainful for a reason, actually
just real quick.
We have a couple of minutes.
So what is dry needling ifsomebody hasn't done it before,

(01:00:39):
and why should they get it, andwhat's the benefit?

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So you got to treat yourmuscles like organs.
They have a metabolic processto it.
They also have a referred painpattern.
So just like your organs, anyorgan say you get a heart attack
, there's a natural kind of painprogression to it Neck,
shoulder, back pain and itdoesn't mean your neck, shoulder

(01:01:04):
, back hurts, it's just yourheart also has sensation tied to
those areas as your body.
There's a warning.
So muscles, like any organ,sometimes they're tender, to the
touch, painful.
They can also refer pain indifferent areas.
That's called the trigger point.
You naturally have triggerpoints because that

(01:01:26):
acetylcholine just kind ofsticks around.
It's a neurochemical that helpsto kind of contract muscle.
But if that muscle isoverstimulated or overtight or
maybe it did something, thatkind of tweaks to join a little
bit, it's a natural mechanism totry to protect it or an
efficiency.
So someone who has like chronicneck tightness or chronic upper

(01:01:46):
trap tightness, maybe justenough positional so you could
massage it, you could try to digit out, you could try to get
into it.
But sometimes that's painful onitself.
So a needle, acupuncture needle,usually between 20 millimeters
to 60 millimeters in diameter,you go in and touch that trigger
point and it just releases thatacetylcholine to get that

(01:02:10):
muscle to relax.
Super cool.
I used to do like the manualkind of digging that area a lot.
I knew I couldn't do that allmy life.
So learning how to dry needleand just getting to experience
it and working with differentpatients over the last couple of
years, I mean it hands down,it's like the quickest way to
improve pain and symptoms andjust kind of get the muscle

(01:02:32):
feeling like it should andthat's where the healing takes
place, right.
If the muscle is so tight, well, what's tight is the blood flow
of that area and if I can getsome more blood flow to the area
.
Get the muscle loosened up.
It just optimizes your healing.
And then here these areexercises, these are things I
want you to do to get the bloodflow to it to move it Just a

(01:02:54):
tool, just like anything else.
It's just a tool.
Yeah, that's kind of what drydealing is to me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
I think it's fantastic.
I've had some really goodresults from it and different
perspectives.
But my favorite is with what Icall the little baby jumper
cables.
When you hook me up likeFrankenstein and you put the
needles in and then you get thelittle jumper cables to it and
then we do the stem at the sametime and you can just feel like

(01:03:25):
everything whatever.
And then, of course, I have hadsome dry needling experiences
where not from you but fromsomebody else where, but it was.
It was so needed.
The muscle was so tight in myquad and in my groin.
It was after my hip surgery andthere was so much scar tissue
and all of that stuff after it.
I literally felt like somebodytook a baseball bat to my thigh.

(01:03:49):
After every single session itfelt like it hurt, but it
loosened it up.
It was like it needed again.
That kind of got the bloodflowing and over time that
really ended up making adifference.
So I'll definitely put in thenotes how to get in touch with
you, but you, so that if peopleare interested in reaching out

(01:04:13):
to you, you are in Annapolis.
Native PT right, did I get thewhole name right?
Native PT?
Yeah, in Annapolis, I'd haveactually had a really cool sort
of training facility there inthe Annapolis area, but so I'll
put your contact information butanything else you want anybody

(01:04:34):
to know before we sign off.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
No, I mean I just want to shout out to you because
just seeing what you do overthe years, how you transform
people, it's amazing to see andI've always admired you from
your coaching standpoint.
So it's always been a pleasureto work with you and you

(01:05:01):
definitely kind of pushed me inthe right direction.
Being a small business ownerand doing your own thing, I'm
like man, tina is suchinspiration, so thank you that
means a lot actually.
I think you just need to justshout it out more.
I think, just let.

(01:05:21):
And going into the wellnessspace, I'm so happy for you
because I feel like the bodytransformation is so much harder
.
Like you're doing thebodybuilding thing, I mean even
for myself, like going throughgrowing up.
But you know, men get that samefeeling too where my body's not

(01:05:42):
good enough.
You know, like you see thesepictures and magazines and
movies, you know, like, how do Ilook like Thor?

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind looking like Thor.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
But then you realize like that's temporary, you can't
look at that all the time andthe way that it's portrayed in
media and especially socialmedia, like yeah, that's like
the male standard, no, it's not.
So getting people to be able toachieve that thing, and then
realize that it's not somethingyou keep, it's just something

(01:06:19):
that you have and achieve for alittle bit of time for the show.
And then you know there's acycling process.
It's amazing to see.
So I'm so happy to you know,reconnect and kind of get the
chat again.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
So yeah, this was, and I appreciate because I have
to.
You know, I wouldn't be where Iam if it wasn't for the really
great doctors.
You know like I call, you know,like I said, the put Humpty
Dumpty back together again andthe great physical therapists,
and you know that I've had.
I keep coming back to you.
I think at one point I was likeyou weren't even certified to

(01:06:59):
do that dry needling yet.
And I'm just going to come toyour house then, because we
happen to live in the sameneighborhood and I know that was
probably weird, but I was likeI'm just desperate and I don't
feel like getting a referral andI need to just get something
done.
But yeah, so I appreciate thatfrom you and this was a really
fun conversation.
I hope other people like it andI think that if people have

(01:07:22):
questions or maybe we could do aQ&A and do another podcast if
people have specific questions,maybe a live thing that we could
do in the future if people areinterested in that, because I
think you have a wealth ofknowledge on and most people
that are listening to thispodcast are interested in
movement in some way, shape orform, whether they're
bodybuilders or weekend warriorsor otherwise.

(01:07:44):
So I think you have a lot tooffer.
So I'm excited for you in yournew endeavor.
Thank you, yeah, I'm happy todo that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
I love doing this stuff.
I mean again the intro outthere, and if we can change
people's minds like hell yeah,let's do it yeah.
You know about movements, aboutpain, about joint issues.
I mean there's so much bad infoout there so I'm happy to
connect.

Speaker 1 (01:08:07):
Yeah, and I have a really great book recommendation
for you and for listeners ifthey want to read it.
But Dopamine Nation.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
Yeah, you want that one.
It's on my list.
It's on my list.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
But that one on your list with the Body Keeps the
Score.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Yeah, that's another one.
You're my second patient.
That's recommended to me, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Yeah, it's a good one .
It'll just give you a differentperspective on the Body Keeps
the Score, give you a differentperspective on the hurt versus
harm, right, sure, and you knowthere's some other books related
to that, and you know a lot ofthe psychosomatic pain,
trauma-based pain, physical painthat is not actually related to

(01:08:48):
injury, right, and sort ofunderstanding that.
So, again, getting back to themental aspect of things, because
pain is always in your head butnot in your head, the way
people try to make you seemright, that's where pain is
always in your head, which isnot actually at the pain point.
It happens in your brain.
But yeah, I think you'll likethose books and I think our

(01:09:12):
listeners will too, if they takea listen.
Do you know our sign-off?
Have you listened to enough ofthe podcast and know my sign-off
?

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
No, no, you don't.
Sorry Did you not get to theend of the podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
Did you fast forward through that part?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
I was doing some yard work and taking out Christmas
trees.
Dad's life.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
It goes.
Don't get weird, use your head,it'll all be okay.
Nice, I mean, just think aboutwhat you're doing, all the
things we just talked about.
It's all in your head, right?
So, mental, don't get weirdabout it, just think about it
and it'll all be okay.

(01:09:54):
Yep, yep, all right.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me and we will say bye
for today.