S4 Ep18: Unraveling the Secrets of Fitness, Metabolism, and Weight Loss

Join Tina and  co-host, Dat Cao as they unravel the tangled web of the evolution of  metabolism, weight loss, and the delicate balance of calories in versus out and how just exercising more doesn't result in weight loss. We dismantle common misconceptions as we discuss our thoughts on the research and book, Burn, by Herman Pontzer, PhD. 

We'll chat about the surprising truths behind most gym-goers' and exercise enthusiasts transformations (or lack thereof), the psychological tug-of-war over  hunger and food choices, and why nutrient-dense choices can be a game-changer for managing weight.
Of course, we don't shy away from discussing how stress, sleep, and metabolic diseases are crucial pieces of the metabolic and overall health puzzle that all too often go overlooked in the constant pursuit of aesthetic goals and weight loss.

We discuss how ALL diets work but why it's so hard to maintain, as we venture through the evolution of human metabolism, the battles of obesity, and strategies to stave off those pesky food cravings—even when the dessert tray seems to have your name on it. Oreos? Who can eat just one anyway?

Lastly, we examine why  tracking both calorie quantity and quality isn't just about performance—it's about survival in the fittest sense. Tune in for an enlightening dose of fitness and nutrition  that may just revolutionize your approach to health, vitality and longevity.

Check out Burn: New Research Blows the Lid Off How We Really Burn Calories, Lose Weight, and Stay Healthy by Herman Pontzer, PhD and let us know your thoughts on our discussion.

Get in touch with Dat:
Dat Cao, PT, DPT, Certified Orthopedic SpecialistNative Physical Therapy
www.nativept.com

Don't get weird, use your head, it'll all be OK!

Looking for a coach to help you be YOUR best self? Let's get in touch!

www.centerstagethleticscoaching.com
[e-mail]
IG: @teamcsfp
FB: https://www.facebook.com/teamcsfp

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to Coaching and Cocktails, the
podcast.
This is Tina, and today I havewith me Dat Cow again.
Physical therapistextraordinaire.
Yes, say hi, say hi Dat.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
They should have me back.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yeah, I got a lot of good feedback on our podcast, so
I don't know if you will findthis as good feedback or not,
but I had several people tell meI really liked him.
He's so cute.
I don't know if you take cuteas a compliment, but apparently
people thought you were cute.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, it's a podcast, so I guess I don't know, I
guess they liked your voice.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
they liked I think they just liked the conversation
.
I think they thought that theconversation was good.
So what have you been up to?
So you tell me about theCrossFit Open and what you're
doing for some of the athletesright now.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, it's been a fun two weeks.
The CrossFit Open started last,technically last Thursday
evening, and it's a three-weekkind of endeavor where everyone
works out, has the same workout,there's office scales for each
person, but last week was a ballbuster.
It was just like 21 reps ofdumbbell thrusters and then

(01:27):
burpees, and it was just one ofthose.
You know you're coughing and Iknow all about coughing.
So I go to Fairbanks CrossFit soI've been providing support for
their athletes as they kind ofgo through this and the various
aches and injuries and thingsthat they might be dealing with.

(01:48):
So, yeah, this last weekend wasthe second open workout.
Everyone did much better.
I think it was like a steadier,longer workout.
So last workout there was likea 15-minute cap and it was all
about intensity.
This one was like a 20-minuteworkout as many rounds as
possible of dead lifts, rows andjump roping.
So, yeah, and then doing itmyself, I think I stayed in the

(02:14):
steady range of just getting thereps through.
So, yeah, it's definitely agood transition from working
with crossfitters, from workingwith runners, both highly
competitive after care abouttheir health and fitness.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
So everybody's breaking themselves down in the
CrossFit open and you're helpingto put them back together again
.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
That's the nature of competition, right, Like there
is a point where you kind ofwork out and you have to kind of
peak at a certain point andthen go out there and test it.
Test that, so there is.
Yeah, I mean, I appreciate it,and I think you always have to
hit some level of intensity orhave some goal.
Else what are we doing?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, goals are good.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, goals are good.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Goals are good, it keeps us moving forward.
I decided that.
So, talking about buying thehorse which I told everybody
about in last week's podcast, Idon't know, I guess I felt like
I needed some other.
I mean, obviously I love horsesanyway and I certainly didn't
go into it thinking that I waslike, oh, I'm gonna do this and

(03:21):
I'm gonna compete and becompetitive and do all of these
things.
But I sort of almost I like thechallenge of just being able to
get better, as I'm turning 51, Iturn 51 next month and I feel
like I need to always bechallenging myself with
something new and be as we'vekind of talked about before,

(03:42):
just being willing to fail at it, being willing like I'm willing
to suck and I can say that Ihave sucked deeply in some rides
, right, like on other horses,and even in my, my first ride on
the horse that I bought, I waslike this was not quite the
magical unicorn ride.
I thought it was going to be.
We are not like is that we'renot meshing?

(04:04):
But I was like but it's aprocess and it's something that
we get to do over time.
And then I also sort ofimmediately was like well, maybe
I will do a show one day, maybeI will compete and just see.
And Brandi she actually, causeshe does a lot of equestrian, so
she does upper level dressagestuff.
And she said I think everybodyshould do a horse show at some

(04:28):
time in their lives to getoutside opinions right, because
it's a very subjective sportlike bodybuilding and other
sports, right.
And just to get an outsideopinion of what your riding
looks like, right, cause I havea trainer and then I have myself
.
But why not let other peopletell me how bad I suck?
Right and take the feedback anddecide if I want to do

(04:50):
something with it or not, right.
So yeah, misogynist.
Is that?
What misogyny is?

Speaker 2 (04:56):
No, no misogyny, it's like-.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Oh, misogyny.
I was like that's not whatmisogyny is.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
You choose, like your , one difficult thing you want
to do that year.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh, is that what it is?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, misogyny Okay misogyny.
It kind of like it impacts therest of your years, like one
thing you want to hit, like thatmountain you want to climb.
The idea is like you'reshedding old habits and the
least embrace, like a newversion of yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
I like that.
It's kind of like what a lot ofpeople do, kind of I don't like
New Year's resolutions, but Ihave a lot of I know a lot of
people that like choose a wordfor the year, right.
And so I think that that kindof aligns with the like, the
misogyny kind of thing or havinga new challenge for that year,
and I think that also alignsvery well with like having a

(05:47):
really strong why, right?
So if I've chosen that this ismy year of whatever, to me I
guess it's the year of the horse.
It is, and I've heard the yearof the horse for me.
I don't know if it's actuallythe Chinese year of the horse,
it probably isn't but Dragon, isit a dragon?
Okay, so I'm gonna say thatwould be crazy, weird if it was,

(06:09):
but yeah, so that's kind of andI actually I already forget
what I said.
My word was this year, clarity.
My word was clarity, and thatmight change a little bit, but I
think that I have that's still.
I think that's still my wordand my challenge to get clarity

(06:30):
on what I'm gonna do when I growup and where I'm going in my
life.
So so you and in the theme ofnow we're doing podcasts, where
somebody comes to me is like hey, I have an idea, let's talk
about this.
You said you wanted to talkabout this new book you just
read, called Burn, which is by Ishould have it right here at my

(06:53):
fingertips because I amcurrently.
I started reading itimmediately.
It's by Herman Ponzer and it'scalled Burn.
New research blows the lid offhow we really burn calories,
stay healthy and lose weight.
So what did you want to talkabout in terms of this book,

(07:16):
before I give any of my ownopinions on it?
Sure.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Also I wanted your opinion is you transform people
and you it's amazing Every typeof transformation that you've
put out there on social mediaand I am like in awe, always
from where a client has startedto where they end up and how
that transformation goes.

(07:41):
Because this book some thingsthat just surprise you.
They take Dr Ponzer.
He's a researcher and it'scoming from the point of a
evolutionary anthropologist.
So he's looking athunter-gatherers and it would

(08:01):
make sense, right, the moreactivity you do, the more
calories you burn, and that'skind of a traditional method,
but his research is, and in thisbook he kind of dispels it.
He says the human body is madefor survival.
You know, someone who's ahunter-gatherer is burning, for

(08:24):
a woman about 1,900 calories aday, for men maybe about 2,600
calories a day.
Up to 3,000 is the same as likea computer programmer in New
York, right?

Speaker 1 (08:37):
With a sedentary lifestyle, sitting on the couch
doing nothing.
I will say that aspect of itwas I wouldn't say it's shocking
.
Once I started, once I gotthrough more and more of the
book, I was like, yeah, so Iwill say it aligns 100% with

(09:02):
everything that I knowscientifically and stuff.
I think the way that he put itwere concepts I just never
considered right, like therewere some things that I didn't
consider.
But then when you kind of putit all together, I'm like, yeah,
yeah, that makes sense.
But that analogy I was before Ieven read the book.
I was like, oh, it's going tobe talking about how

(09:25):
hunter-gatherers burn morecalories and we just need to be
more active, right, like we needto be more active and then all
will be well.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Right, that's kind of what I would always think Like.
I would say someone in ahunter-gatherer society and he
studies the Hansa, which is agroup in Africa that actually
still lives that hunter-gathererlifestyle.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yes, the Hansa.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
And the metabolism and the way they do it.
I mean he gets reallyscientific about like the
evolutionary aspect ofmetabolism in Malibu, which for
me it was interesting, but I canalso see like that first half
of the book being verychallenging.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
It was.
I'll say that so I do.
I was fascinated by theevolutionary aspect of our
metabolisms.
So there was, I did.
I learned quite a bit Like Ithink the science all fits
together when it comes togetherin the end, but I never.
It's that I had neverconsidered it from the

(10:27):
evolutionary perspective, likewhat our metabolisms are doing
from an evolutionary perspective, and that was very cool.
I will say he's very.
There's just a lot of detail Ithink doesn't necessarily need
to be in there.
So I think we do a lot of deepdiving into like this.
It gets very wordy.
It's an easy read, especiallyif you listen to it on Audible,

(10:48):
like I do.
It's a really easy read.
I think he's amusing.
I think that the way hepresents things, I even chuckled
several times like I think it'svery good book.
I think there's just we go alittle deeper into some stuff
that I was kind of like could weskip that part?
Can we skip that part?
Can we just like get to thestuff?
But it's very good, but it was.

(11:09):
It is fascinating to thinkabout our metabolisms from an
evolutionary perspective.
Sure.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, so from there, I mean, I was kind of fascinated
about this whole idea that youknow what really is causing the
obesity epidemic in our countryis really like the excessive
amount of calories we consume,and what is it?
Because it's not even.
It's not even the quality ofthe calories.

(11:38):
It's like you know, he doesmention that guy, mark Hub, the
Twinkie guy.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, who did the Twinkie diet?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, lost 20 something pounds in like 10
weeks, right, and the only thinghe did was like just eat that
little bit of a deficit for yeah, ate a Twinkie like every three
hours or I don't know.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
It was ridiculous, but he ended up only eating I
think it was like 1,100 caloriesa day right Worth a Twinkies.
So he lost like 25 pounds orsomething along those lines and
he did improve some of hishealth markers.
I think that there were evensome health markers that came
down.
But the moral of the story ofthe book like, I think, if we

(12:20):
jump to the, what is theconclusion?
Is that exercise alone burningmore calories.
Right, so doing more activityin a bubble by itself.
If I just exercise and donothing else about changing my
habits to increase my calorieburn in a day, I'm not going to

(12:41):
lose weight.
Right, that was what he said.
That is what a lot of thescience that he put in there
proves.
He mentioned study after.
Now I have not gone and lookedat these studies or anything,
because there's probably studiesto say otherwise.
Study after study he mentioned,and doing this deep dive into

(13:02):
the Hodza I think there weresome other tribes and the
Hunter-Gatherer tribes that theylooked at and stuff.
The moral of the story was ourbodies are designed very smartly
to survive.
Our bodies are hypothalamusthat he talks about a lot and

(13:24):
how.
That's the manager of all thethings metabolism and all the
things that are happening in ourbodies.
It decides where calories go.
It decides how to utilizecalories, based on our activity
levels, based on what we'redoing.
Just burning more calories thanwe take in, I'm sorry, just
burning more calories throughexercise is not actually going

(13:47):
to create a deficit.
Our bodies just adapt.
We up-regulate or wedown-regulate our metabolism in
air quotes, because it's ametabolism encompasses a lot of
stuff.
Really, that becomes the gist.
The problem is, if you think ofit in terms of because everybody
likes to talk about caloriesand versus calories out or cico

(14:10):
or whatever calories and versuscalories out, when we
up-regulate our exercise and ouractivity, the hypothalamus goes
all right, well, I'm going tomake you hungrier.
Okay, now I'm going to bring inmore calories because our body
wants to stay in balance.
Always.
That's the brain's job is tokeep us in balance.

(14:32):
Always, if I make myself domore exercise, I'm going to be
more hungry.
I can tell you every clientthat nearly every client that I
have the more exercise they do,the hungrier they get.
Right, because our body doesn'twant us to be hungry.
He uses starvation mode a lot.
It's something we actually havetried to get out of using in

(14:55):
the bodybuilding industry anyway, because nobody's actually
starving.
But this term starvation mode,it really is just the body
adapting its metabolic processesto your calorie output and your
calorie input.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, so we're not starving per se, but I didn't
like the use starvation mode allthe time.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
But so it seems like a more of a psychological effort
for weight loss, when it comesdown to it, instead of eating
the Twinkie, which is caloriedense, I mean the same.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Calorie dense, but not nutrient dense.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Right.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Right.
So it's calorie dense foods thatare devoid of nutrients.
So we'll talk about the HollyPalatial, so we'll get into that
aspect.
If we're talking in a bit theHolly Palatable foods and why
it's so, I actually so I don'tknow if you listened.
So there's a really goodpodcast, a Huberman podcast,
that I think that if you haven'tlistened to this one yet, it'll

(16:04):
, it'll tag very nicely on to tothis one for you, to the book I
mean, and it's with Lane DrLane Norton, who actually is.
He was somebody I competed withback in the day before he was
Dr Lane Norton, so he's he'sreally, really big in the in
research on metabolism and fatloss, right, and.

(16:28):
And he is a power lifter andhe's been a bodybuilder, so he
understands it both in theoryand in practice, right.
So, and he's coached people to.
You know, he's the coachedclient for years and years and
years.
He's super smart.
It's like three and a half hourpodcast, but it's really worth
the listen because I think it itis calories and versus calories
out.
The problem is it's not assimple as our bodies are not

(16:51):
just like I put gas in my carand my car goes, and so what
goes in kind of comes out rightKind of thing.
Our bodies are just not thatsimple.
We're not simple machines.
Right, there is the.
It's the.
The calories out process ofthings is more than just well, I
exercise, I burned 3000calories today, based on my

(17:12):
Apple watch or whatever thatsays this is how much I burned,
because that's one.
Those things are inaccurate andit's not a simple equation in
that respect, right.
So, and I think and he heexplains that, I think, in in
the book and it really does comedown to our calories out
equation has a lot to do withwhat our brain is doing, what

(17:38):
our metabolic disease status isright.
So how much fat we already haveon our bodies.
Do we have heart disease?
Do we have diabetes?
Do we have inflammation?
Do we manage our stress?
Are we getting sleep?
All of those things help todetermine what calories out are
right.

(17:59):
And calories in is the easypart.
We can calculate more or lesswhat comes into our bodies.
We cannot accurately calculatewhat, what goes out.
I mean, you can use the, youknow in in in his terms, there

(18:19):
is a.
What did he, what did he callit?
The calorie constraint oftrying to make constrained daily
calorie expenditure right.
So, no matter how much activitywe do, we are actually
constrained with the amount ofcalorie output we'll actually
have because our body is alwaystrying to keep us in homeostasis

(18:40):
and we'll up and down regulatebased on what we're doing.
So doing more activity doesn'tnecessarily mean that you're
going to lose weight, right,which is what people think.
But I can say anecdotally andI'm sure you you've seen this
right, if anybody who's gone tothe gym for years and years and
years, right, I used to see thesame people in the gym and they

(19:02):
are.
I mean, they are running and alittle ellipticaling and aerobic
, seeing and lifting weightsYears.
I'd see the same people 10years.
They never look any different.
Well, it's not for lack ofphysical activity, right,
they're in their bust and theirasses in the gym, but they never

(19:22):
look any different.
So that?
So why is that?
Right?
It's because they're notmanaging the calories in.
That's the equation.
So you could see it.
Your average person could justlook around in the gym.
You can look at yourself, right?
You're like I'm doing all thethings.
Oh, I get this all the time.

(19:43):
I'm doing all the things.
I'm doing all the things and Ican't lose weight.
I'm doing all the things, lotsof exercise, so much physical
activity, problems, in somecases too much.
We can get to that too, right?
I'm walking 10,000 steps a dayand I run and I lift weights
four times a week and I do yogaand I manage my stress and I'm

(20:05):
getting sleep, whatever.
Doing all the things.
And then I'm like okay, well,what's your nutrition?
Look like oh, it's great, I eatclean, but I don't ever track
calories.
All right, so until we actuallyget somebody to accurately
track their calorie intake andhumans are listen, the number of

(20:27):
people I have that come to methey're like oh, I'm only,
you're right, everybody logstheir food for a week before I
even consider like okay, whereare you?
Where are you in terms ofcalorie intake, 1,200 calories.
Well, you don't eat 1,200calories a day and you're 50
pounds overweight.
Not a thing.

(20:47):
It's not a thing, right?
It's just because if you readthis book, whether you're
sitting at your literally lyingat your desk all day long or
you're out running a marathon,pound for pound, a person of the
same body, weight, structure,size, whatever is burning the
same calories.

(21:08):
Right?
The computer programmer versusthe marathoner?
Right, the meta, your BMR, rmr,whatever is the same.
So the difference is you're notreally eating 1,200 calories
because you didn't gain 50pounds of body fat, because
you're only eating 1,200calories a day.
Right, that's a good thing, buthumans are notorious, right?

(21:30):
He talks about a lot of studies.
I mean, there's studies uponstudies and anecdotal evidence
of like.
We will always overestimate ourdaily activity and
underestimate how much we eat,right?
So it's that the key is and Ican say with my transformation

(21:50):
clients, my bodybuilding clients, it's always nutrition.
Yes, we do add cardio and wemanipulate it, we do manipulate
activity levels, but it's alwaysnutrition.
If they are losing body fat ornot losing body fat, it comes
down to what the calories inlook like.

(22:14):
Period, and nobody wants, right, that's the hard part.
It's hard.
yeah, it's hard, right,everybody wants.
So I love, love that, because Ifeel like every book, podcast
or other documentary God fuckingdocumentaries I get so excited

(22:35):
that I'm just like, oh, we'regoing to see all the science in
somebody.
You know somebody's going tolike, look at all the different
diets and debunk that like thisone's better than this one, and
then it ends up being sponsoredby vegans or it's sponsored by
you know cow farmers or whatever, right, and this one he was
like basically like they're allgood, they all work, right, it's

(22:57):
not high carb, low carb, highfat, low fat.
Oh, and I really love becauseI've been saying this for years
that the paleo diet is like, noteven closely related to what
paleo man ate.
Right, they, we were what doyou call us?
Opportunistic omnivores,omnivores, yeah, so I have said

(23:20):
that since the beginning of thepaleo diet and I was like this
is not what paleo man ate, right, they ate what was available.
Right, that if you got fruits,you got that, whatever tubers,
you know, whatever the case is.
And then meat came along later,right, and they have the
scientific evidence showing that.
Right, like the fact that theydidn't have paleolithic.

(23:46):
And he got into the names ofall the different, like whatever
the names of the people wereback then, and I'm not gonna get
into that, but you know, at thebeginning of time they didn't
have the tools to kill an animalto eat animal meat.
So it was really right, thegathering right.
It was more gathering than itwas hunting.
And then they can start showingwhere animal bones started

(24:08):
having like cut marks in them.
So you could tell that a toolwas used to cut them or you know
.
And they had the actual toolsbecause they were saying that,
like, the tools for gathererswere like a stick, that's how
you're digging up a tuber orwhatever kind of plant in the
ground.
So you couldn't prove thatthat's all they ate, but you

(24:28):
could prove that they weren'teating anything else because
there were no tools available todo that.
And then you can see when theystarted eating meat.
So, long story short, the paleodiet is.
I mean, I'm not gonna say it'sbullshit, eat it if you want,
but that is not what thepaleoman women, people were
eating.
This is the more one thingyou're eating, right,
opportunistic omnivores, right.

(24:49):
So you can be vegan if thatfeels good to you.
You can do keto, you can dointermittent fasting, you can do
carnivore diet.
Whatever the case is and thishas been studied and repeated
over and over again it comesdown to you are putting yourself
in a calorie deficit One way oranother.
You're not eating as manycalories, right, right?

(25:14):
Right and then, if you so, onthe side of like low carb or
keto diets.
The reason why people feel sosuccessful on those is it does
give you scale weight loss veryquickly, because when you take
out all of your carbohydrates,you immediately deplete your
glycogen stores, so water weightgoes down.

(25:37):
So you're gonna see this likefive, 10 pound drop on the scale
and that's really exciting,right, and there is a lot of
evidence to show that if peoplecan will stick to a diet, if
they can get like cause we likeimmediate gratification.
If I can see really quick,immediate results, then I'm
gonna be excited and moremotivated to continue, right?

(25:58):
So ketogenic diets will do thatreally.
Low carb diets will do that,because your all your carbs go
away.
You lose a lot of water weightvery quickly, but is it
sustainable?
You start eating carbs again.
That same weight comes back on,right?
I do this in bodybuilding.

(26:20):
We manipulate this in clientsall the time, right?
Cause we deplete them and thenwe're trying to fill them up,
fill them back out for the stageso we might bring their carbs
like way, way, way, way down.
So they're glycogen stores,right.
They look all flat and stringyand they look like little scrap
crack head skeletons, right.
And then and they feel reallypuny and they're like, oh, I'm
gonna die.
And then they eat like 350grams of carbs the day before

(26:44):
the show.
Their weight goes up two orthree pounds on show day.
Of course, my the client.
I always warn my clients causethey're like I weigh more and
I'm like, yeah, that's what wewant.
Because your muscles are fullnow, right, like don't you look
better?
Right, and now you have fullmuscles that are pressing
against the skin and you lookleaner because the muscles are
pressing in skin.
You don't look like you'redying.
So that's what carbs are doingwhen we're kind of like

(27:08):
manipulating carbs.
So, anyway, that I would saythat's.
The only benefit to a diet likethat is that you're gonna get
that really quick and immediatereturn.
But as soon as you start eatingcarbs again, it's going to come
back.
So, any, the only diet thatworks in his words and I would
agree the only diet that worksis one that you can live on and

(27:34):
sustain a healthy weight.
Right, that's what works right,yeah, exercise.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
It won't necessarily make you lose more weight, but
it's a great way to maintainyour weight, absolutely, and
exercise is essential for yourhealth, right?

Speaker 1 (27:55):
So the problem is and I actually just got through the
part where he's talking aboutyou know cause?
He's talking about the exerciseaspect?
Because he's like, yeah, noweverybody's gonna, everybody's
like whoa, up in arms becauseyou can't say exercise doesn't
help with weight loss, becausethen nobody's gonna exercise,
because everybody wants toexercise for aesthetics.
I want to exercise to loseweight so I can look out on the

(28:18):
beach, so I can look hot.
He even said, right, so if I'mnot exercising to look hot, then
just prop my ass up on thecouch with a bag of potato chips
and I'm gonna go on about mylife, right, right.
And that that is the unfortunatetruth, because unfortunately,
so many people look at exercisesolely as a way to lose weight,

(28:40):
even as a means of punishmentfor gaining weight or eating too
much.
Let me go exercise it off.
You know, whatever the case maybe, nobody is looking at
exercise or how they eat, whatthey eat for their health.
Everybody's doing it in termsof aesthetics, right?

(29:02):
And so that even brings me tolike you know how, bodybuilding
aside, people have a reallystrong goal they're gonna lose
weight and get on stage.
But if you're talking aboutjust like lifestyle clients that
I work with, if somebody'scoming to me and is like, yeah,
I want to lose 10, 20 pounds soI can look at it in my
daughter's wedding, that's not,that's a temporary diet, that's

(29:26):
not something that's gonnareally work and they're gonna be
able to sustain and they'reprobably not gonna be able to
stick to it and it's gonna suck.
If somebody comes to me is likeI'm prediabetic, I don't want to
take drugs, I want to live along life, I want to be able to
be around for my kids, I want todo this for my health, then
people are gonna be moreinclined to do those things.

(29:46):
But it's really hard to sellphysical activity that is about
your health.
It's easy to sell it as a meansto look hot right.
Same with the foods that youeat.
Yeah, I mean you could loseweight eating a Twinkie every
three hours on 1,100 caloriesworth of Twinkies.

(30:08):
Or I think somebody did a BigMac diet.
I mean it's been shown a lotand people.
You can lose weight, but it'scalorie restriction, no matter
how you look at it.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, even the exercise component of
it.
I mean it's so interestingwhere.
What are those excess caloriesdoing to your body?
Like what is it if we're notburning, if it's not being part
of your consumer?
If your calorie constraintcalculated, well, it's in there,
it's doing something, andpeople that are more active and

(30:40):
nexizing have less of an immuneresponse system, but immune
response to everything going onin the body.
So immune response includes,like allergies, allergens,
autoimmune issues.
Why is it that, like thirdworld countries, including

(31:01):
inflammatory issues like heartdisease and metabolic issues
like diabetes, are more soprevalent in third world
countries where we're not asactive?

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Right, right, yes, because in his, the way he
describes it, the way our bodieswork, right?
If we all basically have thesame BMR, pound for pound, right
, based on our size, where doour calories go?

(31:32):
So if I'm not exercising, thosecalories are gonna get allotted
to body fat for, like you said,inflammation, for other areas,
right?
If I'm exercising, thosecalories get allotted to, maybe,
building muscle or maybe, ifI'm strength training, or to

(31:55):
that calorie out, right?
So there are less caloriesavailable to be.
If all the calories are thesame, there are less calories
available to make me sick, right?
So there is a lot of benefit tothat.
Plus, exercise improvescardiovascular health and it
improves metabolic health,whether it's cardiovascular or

(32:16):
blood sugar regulation.
For diabetes, I will say I guessthe other potential, so the
other potential for a lower carbdiet would actually be somebody
who's diabetic, right, andhelping to regulate blood sugar.
So there is that benefit, butnot in a sense of.
I mean that's from a healthmarker perspective, not anything
else.
But, yeah, I think that it wasreally interesting the way that

(32:41):
he put that concept of like okay, well, if we all have the same
basic BMR, right?
So if you and I have the sameBMR if we were the same size.
And I'm sitting on the coucheating potato chips all day and
not gaining weight butcontributing to my inflammation,
contributing to right, I'mbuilding up plaque in my

(33:02):
arteries.
I'm you know.
Whatever the case may be, I'mstill going to be less healthy,
even if I end up weighing thesame.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, and it's that autoimmune part of it that is so
interesting, because you knowsomeone that that there's a
phenomenon in marathon trainingyou know after your marathon
you're more likely to get theflu or to get a cold because
your immune system's a littlemore suppressed, because your
body's you know saying, hey, I'mgonna use these calories
because you did the marathon andyou're wearing this calorie

(33:34):
deficit.
So we gotta rebuild thosetendons, those bones, that
strength, as opposed to someonewho's not well, that extra
calories is doing something withthose weightlifts, yeah, and
the same with bodybuilders,right, and you know, I think
there's, you know there's anadrenaline aspect to a lot of

(33:54):
that.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Like you're just, you're, all your calories are
going towards this thing, right,so you're mentally focused,
right.
So calories are going to yourbrain, your mental, the mental
focus on these sports is reallyimportant to you, right, I'm
thinking about it, I'm planningit, I'm you know all the food
planning.
There's so much calorie goingtowards this effort.

(34:15):
When it's over, there's likethis, like your body just goes,
huh, right, and then you getsick and then all the calories
go there, right, so it's just,it's inevitable.
I think, like in any highstress situations, if you think
of like, even if you, yeah, soif you have like some like

(34:36):
really high stress, you justlike I gotta be on it, going,
going, going for this thing, Iget this high stress test, or
finishing this course orwhatever, and immediately after
you get sick, right, there'ssomething to that and it's our,
it's our, it's our brains, orhypothalamus in particular.
That's like being super smart.
I love that.
You called it like themetabolic manager, the

(34:58):
paleolithic that might be thewrong word.
The metabolic manager, that'sjust like evolutionary metabolic
manager.
I can't forget what he calledit.
That is, like you know, smartenough to know exactly where all
of these things have to go.
It can just be a lot moreefficient with people who aren't
sick, making themselves sicker,bringing in too many calories

(35:22):
and exercising right.
The other thing I think was areally important point is I
really love the play betweenokay, like our ancestral apes
and chimpanzees, who are verylazy, they're very good at

(35:44):
conserving energy, but how we ashuman, and so oh so they.
They talk about how, like poundfor pound, these apes, and they
talk about like BMR and stuff.
They're big but they're not fat.
Like they run like eight 10%body fat right, like they stay
very, very lean and they donothing, right, they're sort of

(36:07):
like.
They're like, yeah, they'relike the couch potato of the
animal world, and animals arereally good at like conserving
energy.
Like no animal purposelyexpends energy.
We're the only ones who do that, by the way.
Everybody else knows how toconserve because they don't know
when they're gonna have to doit.
They don't have to chase theirfood, right, or whatever.

(36:27):
So, anyway, what I think isreally cool is that he talks
about how our metabolisms haveevolved.
From that sort of sloth-like.
I don't do much, sit around onthe couch, hang out in a tree,
ape to being very active, ourmetabolisms to hunter-gatherers
right.
So the hunter-gatherers arevery active.

(36:49):
We are evolved, our metabolismsevolve to be hunter-gatherers,
to be moving all the time, andthen we don't, right.
So our metabolisms need whatour evolution says we should be
moving all the time and over thecourse of so, why obesity is

(37:12):
going up since even 20s, 30s,40s, 50s right, it goes up every
year is because we're getting,we're moving less and less and
less.
It's about 15,000 steps, thatyeah that's why he said,
evolutionary-wise we should bethe hot stuff right, or doing

(37:33):
like 15,000 steps a day.
That's how much movement weshould be getting at a minimum
right.
So it's also why our bodies arestoring more fat more easily,
because our metabolisms areexpecting more calorie
expenditure and we don't have it, and so then we're storing fat

(37:56):
for because we're in starvationmode or what have you.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, I mean even the animal kingdom.
It takes like one calorie toget 40 calories For people.
It's like 10 calories for 40calories.
So we're working and really theonly way evolution worked is
that we worked together.
It took a village to gatherfood together for the whole

(38:26):
collective, for everyone to see,and that's what kind of set us
apart, and that's kind of whatsaid Homo erectus or Homo
sapiens, away from the animalkingdom.
So you go back to it now.
Sometimes we go back tocalorie-dense food.
I mean, it's like apsychological trick, right, like

(38:50):
the brownie, the twinkie, theavailability of this food, the
easy calories, even the economiccost of it.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
it's cheaper, well, that's why there is so much more
obesity in underservedcommunities, food deserts, more
urban areas, because there ismore poverty.
Cheap food is shitty food,right.

(39:19):
There's a lot more stress,there's a lot more all of these
things and that's where we endup having more heart disease and
obesity.
So the highly-allotable foodsthat are available to us and
what people need to understandand I know I've talked about
this on the podcast before.
I think we talked about it inone of the documentary ones.

(39:39):
I think food is designed.
If people don't hear anythingelse.
Food is designed.
Highly-allotable foods Oreos,doritos, twinkies, the shit that
can sit on a shelf for 50 yearsand still be edible quote
unquote.
There are very smart people inthe food industry who are

(40:00):
designing these foods areliterally designed with a
chemical structure to make uswant more.
It has an impact on the brain.
There's a dopamine hit.
There's a lot of other thingsthat will.
So there isn't a.
I mean, yeah, it's cool to saycan you have just one?
Well, they're designed for youto not be able to have just one,

(40:23):
right?
So you talked about having foodcravings and how the
hypothalamus kind of controlsthese things and the sort of the
premise that we can go out to ameal and I think everybody's
probably experienced this.
Let's take Thanksgiving, forexample.
Right, so Thanksgiving dinnerand we're all stuffed to the

(40:44):
gills after dinner, right, we'dbe in the turkey and the
stuffing and the mash potatoes,and we're all like ooh, lean
back in the chair and like man,I'm stuffed, I couldn't eat
another bite.
And then somebody brings outthe pumpkin pie and suddenly
You're craving the pumpkin piebecause that is how our brain is
designed.
It's the reward pathways.
It's going to be that rewardpathway hit, that dopamine hit

(41:09):
that sugar gives some people,not all.
We're not all designed exactlythe same.
Then suddenly you're eating piewhen you couldn't possibly have
eaten another bite of thesavory.
It's why we can go out todinner and be stuffed and still,
suddenly the dessert comes out,you get the reward pathway and

(41:32):
the hypothalamus lights up andit's like, yeah, here we go, I'm
going to eat some more.
I mean, who hasn't done that?

Speaker 2 (41:39):
100%.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, we did talk about how there is a genetic
variation to why some people aremore, have a propensity towards
obesity.
There is genetics involved inthat, which is why you tend to
see obesity run in families.
There's also eating habits thatrun in families, based on rates

(42:06):
.
If the parents are obese andneed a certain way, the kids are
probably going to also eat acertain way and be obese.
There is a genetic, there's alot of genetic to that, but it's
not what do you say?
But that's not your destiny.
My genetics are not my destiny.
I actually have the ability.
So epigenetics show thatenvironmentally, I can actually
decide what parts of my DNA areturned on and turned off right,

(42:29):
how my DNA is expressed, basedon my.
That's what epigenetics is.
So, just because my genes say Ican, actually I can use my
lupus as an example, because itworks in very much the same way.
I was genetically predisposedto having lupus, but I didn't
get sick until later in lifewhen those when that the genes

(42:54):
were turned on right.
So there was something thattriggered that gene expression
and then I got sick, but it wasalways there right, like I
didn't magically get it out ofthe blue.
So the same thing is true forobesity, heart disease, things
along those lines.
So we have control over that toa point, because we can control

(43:17):
our environment.
So the people you know when Itell my clients all the time so
if we talk about like calorie,so if you're in a calorie
deficit, your body's going towork real hard to tell you, hey,
demi, stop, we need to be inhomeostasis because our body
doesn't like that.
Tell my clients all the timeour bodies are not designed to

(43:39):
look good.
Our bodies are designed tosurvive period.
Your body gives no fucks abouthow you look in your bikini.
It wants you to stay a certainweight.
It wants to keep your calorieskind of coming in and going out
at the same rate, right.
It wants things to kind of stayin this happy middle ground,
wherever that is, even if you'reoverweight, it wants it will
try to make you overweight.

(44:00):
If you've spent most of yourlife overweight, it's going to
try to keep you overweightbecause that is homeostasis for
your body.
So what I tell clients is youdon't get through a diet, you
don't get to lose weight withoutbeing hungry.
Some people are going to behungry, other than others.
Right, there is, you know, somepeople can seemingly eat next

(44:22):
to nothing and never be hungry.
So, again, there's a lot ofgenetic variation in that, but
you're going to be hungry.
The problem is, people whoexercise like maniacs and don't
track their nutritional intakeat all right, are going to
naturally eat more.
Our bodies are going to tell usto eat more, right?

(44:44):
So we're going to.
So the only way around it issome type of nutritional
tracking, right?
So, whether you're using myfitness pal and weighing and
measuring everything you dowhich my bodybuilders have to
right, like they're very they'remeticulous about it.
Even that's not exact science,but at least there's consistency
in, like, I'm weighing andmeasuring, I'm eating this
amount and we're slowly reducingthe amounts of foods that they

(45:05):
eat.
So, whether you're doing it thatway, or portion size or hand
portion size control, or takingpictures of your meals or your
restraining calories becauseyou're using intermittent
fasting or low carb, whateverthe case may be, you have to
track your calories in some way,because your body will tell you
to eat more to keep yourbalance right and you're going

(45:25):
to be hungry.
So I tell my clients, like,you're just going to have to
accept that hunger is part ofthe process.
In fact, embrace it, right,Like if you're hungry.
It means you're in a deficit,it means your body's like all
right, they're not bringing inas many calories as we're
expecting, so we're going tohave to start, you know, turning
down some calorie you knowwhere I'm putting calories over
here and get into fat burning,right.

(45:48):
So where's my body going to getthe energy that it needs?
Well, it'll go to fat storesfirst, depending on the type of
calories you're expending, right.
But if you're doing thingscorrectly, it's going to start
reaching into fat stores for itsenergy, right?
Because if I'm not bringing theenergy in and my body needs to
stay in homeostasis, it's got toget the energy from somewhere,

(46:10):
yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:11):
I love seeing this because I'm getting a peek into
the actual process right thecoaching, the feedback, the like
what does it take to createthese transformations?
And it does a lot of like,feedback and measuring and
guidance and, like you know, togo in alone sometimes even like

(46:32):
my wife and I, we're using Noomas like food trackers as a way
to see where we're at and are wereally eating enough, because
you know, part of it is like Idon't think I was eating enough
and so why am I tired all thetime?
And, yeah, you know.
I should be getting, like Ishould be getting my level, like
they're like 2,600 calories andI'm at like 19 on most days.

(46:54):
Yeah, Like you know, bumping upa little bit, I feel better.
My muscles are getting bigger.
Yeah, yeah, Performing betterand, like you know, CrossFit
workouts.
So you know it's just, if youdon't do it, you don't track it.
I mean, you're just kind ofguessing.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
You know that's with everything, that's with life,
right, Right, Having goals, evenbut, and if you and listen, if
you're, if you're fine where youare and you're not trying,
you're just trying to live ahealthy life and you're at a
healthy weight, you feel good,you feel good in the gym, you
feel you know you have energy,all of those things you don't.

(47:30):
You don't have to trackeverything that you eat Like
it's, it's, it's not necessary.
But if you have a goal,especially if you have a weight
loss goal or a fat loss goal ora physique goal or an even an
athletic goal, tracking isimportant, right, tracking how
you feel, tracking your weight,if, if that's part of the

(47:51):
process, right, so you may betracking your, your strength,
right, or your run times, or,like I have a, I have a client,
my client Kara, who's podcastedwith me.
She's a hybrid athlete, so shedoes bodybuilding and she's an
endurance athlete right, shedoes that.
God bless her soul.
She just added a swimming.
So she was a bi athlete and nowshe's a tri athlete and I was

(48:13):
like, can you like?
Why do you add more to thisequation, with me trying to
figure out, like, how to keepyou from falling apart?
But anyway, but she is.
I think we're like 20 pounds upfrom where she was.
When she was on stage she waslike 120 pounds and she was very
, very lean on stage.
Now she's like actually, no,she's almost, she has 20, 25

(48:36):
pounds up, I think, from stage.
But she's in her endurancetraining and she said so many
people like, try to get smaller,which might make sense, right,
if you're carrying less weightaround and you're running and
biking and swimming, like, doesthat make you faster?
She says for me, like being atthis weight, so actually having
more weight on her, she said myendurance is so much better.

(49:00):
She's strong as an ox, so likeshe's killing it in the gym and
she's killing like these VO2,like all our VO2 tests and like
all of these things.
And you know she's 20, 30pounds heavier than she was on
stage.
Now, stage weight is not ahealthy weight, so we shouldn't
be comparing that to anythingother than being on a
bodybuilding stage.
She's at a very healthy weightright now.

(49:20):
She's by no means right.
She's at a very healthy bodyfat, but she has because she
tracks these things right.
She's tracking her performanceand she's tracking her
nutritional intake.
She knows and we know what wecan adjust.
If she starts to tank, then weknow we have to upregulate her
calories, right, we have tobring the calories up a little
bit more.
And that's kind of what washappening, like she was really

(49:43):
starting to tank and I was like,well, you need more calories,
right, regardless of where yourscale weight is, we just need to
bring more calories in becauseyour body can only do so much.
But yeah, there has.
If you have a goal right, so anygoal should.
You should always, you know set.
You have to have somemeasurement process to get there
right.
If your goal is to get yourbachelor's degree, like aren't

(50:06):
you, don't you have some measureof success in your grades, your
test taking, like, do you havethe knowledge right?
So it's a different kind ofmeasurement, but you're still
measuring.
If you have a performance goal,you have to measure those
things.
You don't just go run willynilly and be like I don't know,
am I getting better, am I notgetting better?
I don't know you're trackingthat shit right.

(50:26):
If you want to lose weight sorrypeople, there is no all right.
There is a magic pill.
I don't want to get into that.
That pill's got all sorts ofother problems.
But if you think about this bookin terms of the weight loss
drugs?
Right, those weight loss drugswork on the brain.

(50:47):
They work on the reward andhunger system, so they're
working on the hypothalamus.
That is that, right?
So, if you think, if you thinkabout the book in terms of what
these drugs do, yeah, they makeyou not hungry.
So they are telling your brainto turn off its ability to
manage your metabolism, right?

(51:08):
So is there a benefit to peoplegetting healthier because
they're losing weight?
Yes, but what's the downside ofthat?
Right?
Like, are you going to be onthese drugs forever?
Are you going to cause ashlough of other issues?
Because they already know theside effects and they don't know

(51:29):
the long-term effects, becausewe got a million people on them
now, what's it going to looklike a couple of years from now?
It's like when Fin Fin came out, right, like it was great.
Look, I did it.
I did it in my 20s.
I mean, you want to talk aboutme?
You might as well have given mecrack, because it was like
there was no hunger ago.
I can tell you, I literally wasnot hungry, I wouldn't eat, I

(51:51):
had no hunger, none.
So it clearly was operating invery much the same way.
And then I got really, reallysick because I didn't eat for
like a month because these drugswere so strong, right.
So, and then they found outthat they were killing people
and giving everybody heartarrhythmias and you know which I
also ended up with, right.

(52:11):
So you know, there's always,there's always a downside, so
you know, right.
So there's no shortcut.
If you want a long-term solutionto your health and wellness and
fitness right, and weight lossis part of that if you're at an

(52:32):
unhealthy weight, so you have totrack you simply have to
control your calorie intake someway.
Period, it's the only way.
Then, right.
So you have the like okay, well, I'm hungry, I'm hungry all the
time.
So there is a big difference inthe quality of food.

(52:55):
So it's not just the quantityof food you eat, right, so it,
yes, in the sense of calories inversus calories out, the
quantity of food you eat mattersvery much.
The quantity of calories youeat, the quality of food, is
what's going to determine howhungry you are, how stimulated

(53:16):
your reward system is, right.
So how much of that brain ofyours is like you better go eat
all Oreos right now, right,because I need all the Oreos,
right.
So the more you eat satiatingfoods, healthy foods, as our
hunter-gatherer brethren havebeen doing for years, right?

(53:38):
So high protein diets?
There is zero downside to ahigh protein diet, none, right.
You have to have sufficientprotein, you know.
High carb, low carb, high fat,low fat, whatever.
But eat whole foods, right?
High fiber, high protein fruits, vegetables, lean meats.

(54:01):
Less processed food, right?
Less highly palatable processedfood, because one.
So there's two reasons.
They're chemically engineered tomake you want more.
It is a fact.
The food industry I mean thereis a bazillion dollar industry
behind Doritos and Oreos, andI'm not demonizing Doritos and

(54:24):
Oreos because they're amazing,but they will make you want more
.
They will make you hungryhungry or you will be less
satiated eating those things andthen you will overeat them.
They are designed so you willovereat and then you've overshot
your calories and then that'swhy you're not losing weight.
Period.
When you eat high fiber, highprotein, you're satiated longer.

(54:48):
You're going to stimulate that.
You know your hypothalamusisn't going to be lighting up
like a Christmas tree becauseyou just ate an Oreo that is
literally chemically designedfor everything and your brain to
go off and make you eat more.
You're going to eat it.
You're going to feel satisfied.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
You're going to go on about your day right, it's like
two Oreos or 10 cups of spinach.
Right Like calories the same.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Yeah, I think I'd rather have the Oreos, but and
look if you so the other benefitto tracking calories, right?
So my clients know, yeah, Imean 95% of their diet.
Really.
I mean, listen, you got to bein this for your health, right?
So, even so, the bodybuildersthey get on poverty macros, you

(55:32):
know, got a lot of room for anOreo.
So you do kind of have tochoose.
Like, well, if I eat this Oreo,I mean let us for dinner, right
, because I got no calories left.
Right, it doesn't mean youcan't ever have it, but you do
have to limit it, right?
So, yeah, have two Oreos, butthen just have two Oreos and
make sure you account for thosecalories, right.

(55:53):
And then you go on about therest of your day and eat your
chicken and your, you know highfiber carbs and your potatoes
and your you know all of allthose glorious carbohydrates,
because carbohydrates areamazing and but really that
that's what it comes down to.
So can you control it?
Some people have better controlover their food cravings than

(56:15):
others because everybody'sreward system in their brain,
everybody's brains are different, so it does you know to say you
have more or less willpower.
Yeah, I guess that's true ifyou want to call it willpower,
but there some people simplyhave stronger brain signals that

(56:36):
trigger these.
You know reward systems morestrongly than others, but you
can manipulate that based on thenutrient density of your foods,
right?
Right, I mean that that's whatit comes down to.
There's no easy way around it.
You don't, but I always tellpeople you can't out exercise a

(56:58):
bad diet.
It's true, and that's exactlywhat this book says.
It could have been called youcan't out exercise a bad diet,
right?
I mean, you can't just exerciseand more is not better, better
is better.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
I mean, that was my mindset, right Like I'm running
today, so I'm going to have icecream, you know, and it was just
an unhealthy way to approach it.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Yeah, because you're rewarding yourself.
Now, listen, that's not, it'snot necessarily a bad thing,
right, like, all right.
So you know, as an example,again, I use a lot of, obviously
, use a lot of bodybuilding asas examples.
But you know, I have someathletes who get up in the 3000
calorie range in their growthseason.
Right, they're because they,they've got a lot of muscle.

(57:45):
The way that they're trainingtheir metabolism is just, they
can, they can maintainthemselves on a lot of calories.
It can get really hard to eatnutrient 3000 calories worth of
nutrient dense food.
It's hard because you feel sofull, right, like at some point
you got to, you got to eat dirtya little bit, right, because,
or you know, find a kind of aliquid way for your, your cows

(58:08):
rates in some form, because yournutrient dense foods are
filling for a reason and 3000calories worth of them can get
kind of tough, so right.
So, if you know, if you have2000, if you know that you
should be eating 2600 calories aday, yeah, I have a cup of ice
cream.
Yeah, right, it's, it's, it's afantastic way to feel, probably

(58:33):
not pre pre run because of thedairy, but you know, a post post
run or even like a post workout.
You know a really good likebriars ice cream.
That's like all naturalingredients.
I mean you got some sugar, yougot some fat, you got carbs in
there.
It's probably a little protein.
If it's like a real ice cream,nothing wrong with that, right,

(58:53):
you refill your glycogen, yourdepleted glycogen stores, stores
, stores, stores.
Right, nothing wrong with that.
You know there's a lot of bodybutters that are like deadlifts
and donuts Great, it's probablya great way to.
You know, pre workout fordeadlift day Right, you got a
lot of sugar and fat going inthere and you have a great

(59:16):
deadlift day.
Because you know you ate fiveKrispy Kreme's beforehand or
after, whatever.
Right.
So you know what I, what I tellmy clients, like when you're the
time to eat quote, unquote,dirty calories and they don't
work for everybody Like ifyou're going to really eat some
simple junkie kind of food.
It's pre and post workout,because that's when your body is

(59:36):
going to uptake.
You know the glycogen reallyquickly.
You're either going to have itreadily available in your
bloodstream for energy in yourworkout or right, right, your,
your replenishing depletedglycogen stores post workout
Right.
So you have something that'skind of like real quick
digesting a real simple protein,less less fiber, less fat, pre

(59:56):
and post workout, you know.
So, if that's when you want toraise Krispy, tweet either rice
Krispy Tweet, right.
Like if that's when you want tohave your lucky charm cereal,
these are just kind of your sourpatch kids.
These are the popular ones,right, your pop tart, whatever.
Whatever the case is, that'swhen you have it, and then the
rest of your day is leanproteins, veggies, fruits, right

(01:00:18):
.
The hunter gatherer foods, thethings that were not available
or the things that are availableto the, to our hunter gatherer
people.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah right, that's so interesting it's.
You know it's definitelyhelpful advice, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Right, you think about it too, like you know not
only were you know again so likeour metabolism were designed
for us to be moving right, likewe should be moving a lot more
than we are.
We've gotten very sedentaryoutside of the gym.
We're very sedentary and highlypalatable foods are just
readily available.
Right, it's, it's quick, it'seasy.
Fast food on every corner.

(01:00:54):
You know foods in the gasstations.
It's harder, it's harder to eathealthy.
It just is right.
It takes more work.
I'm not gonna say it's harder,it just takes more work.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Yeah, my biggest takeaway is like the you know
what are those excess caloriesdoing for someone who's not as
active?
You know, and it's making yousick.
There are, yeah, yeah, fewercalories that you're not using,
you know because of, say, thebudgets by 2500 calories, and
actually a couple of hundredcalories are spandex on cortisol

(01:01:26):
.
Even like the house men, theyhave roughly about 30% less
testosterone than men inindustrialized worlds.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Yeah, I actually.
I found that really interesting, you know, when you compare the
HADSA men.
So we're talking about thehormones, right, we think more
is better.
Right, more testosterone wouldbe better, more estrogen, more
progesterone which is, which isnot, which is not the case,
right, we want homeostasis, wewant, we want it to be balanced.

(01:01:59):
And so if our testosterone,estrogen, progesterone, whatever
is is through the roof andwe're not doing like the
calories are going towards thatand we're not doing anything to
it for it, you know from it, ittoo can make us sick, right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Right Breast cancer prostate cancer.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah, so that's where those calories are going.
So you know the other thing to.
So if we kind of circle back todoing more to burn more
calories because our metabolismsare so adaptive, right?
So I have this problem withclients a lot who are already.

(01:02:45):
So I mean, they are like doinghours and hours of cardio, right
, Like you know, there's just alot of calorie expenditure so to
get their their, theirmetabolisms are so adaptive, not
broken.
Nobody's got a brokenmetabolism because everybody's
like my metabolism is brokenbecause I dieted too hard and I

(01:03:06):
did too much cardio.
No, it's not broken, it's justadapted.
It's just it's it's what ourbodies do because they're very,
very smart.
That's how we don't die in acalorie deficit, right?
We don't die because we justshift the calories to somewhere
else, right?
Anyway, it's very, very hard forthem to lose body fat without

(01:03:27):
going to very extreme low levelsof calories, because if you
really are only eating 1200calories and you're expending
3000 calories a day in exerciseand you're not, and that's where
you're balanced so the only wayto lose more weight is, you

(01:03:49):
know, 100 calories a day, right?
So you know, we do a lot of endup doing a lot of like reverse
dieting and, and I mean, butagain, this is a very meticulous
and hard and very slow processof very slowly adding calories
back into a diet.
We do this after a competitionand we have to right, Otherwise
they're going to gain back alltheir body fat all at once.

(01:04:11):
So we we start to very slowlyadd calories back in while we're
very slowly bringing down the,the cardio output right, or the
calorie output, so that we canget them back to homeostasis,
where calories are at a higherlevel and cardio is at a lower
level.
So you know, if they keep doingcardio right, they will

(01:04:36):
probably still.
If they started increasingtheir calories and kept doing
cardio, they'd still see theirbody fat go up, yeah Right.
But they're keeping theirmetabolism adapted so that all
those calories are going out thewindow in cardio expenditure,
main calorie expenditure.
So you have to bring thosethose you know not the walking

(01:04:58):
and getting your steps in perday and stuff, but you've got to
.
If these excessive activitylevels just create these very
adaptive metabolisms, that mayget harder and harder and harder
for us to ever lose weight,right.
So we have to kind of get backto this other place.
The other thing I'll mention youknow I feel like I hopefully
I'm not rambling is this conceptof like body fat set point.
So again, so we talk about thata lot in bodybuilding circles.

(01:05:20):
You know where your body'shappy Again homeostasis.
If you have spent the majorityof your life at 140 pounds and
you dieted down to 110 poundsfor the stage, your body's gonna
real quick try to get you backto 140, no matter what you do,
that is where it's going to tryto go very, very quickly.

(01:05:43):
So it'll make you really,really hungry.
Your left end and grayling getreally dysregulated during a fat
loss process.
Where did that little thumbs upcome from?
I don't know.
There's this like little weirdthumbs up bubble that just came
up.
That was happening in when Iwas podcasting with Carol last
week too.
I was like is she sending methumbs up?

(01:06:04):
I don't know what that is.
Oh my God, do you thinksomebody could be listening in?
I don't think so.
I just gave us a thumbs up.
That was weird.
So yeah, so again, our body's,being way smarter than we are,
are going to do everything itcan to kind of like rev itself
right up to its previous bodyfat levels or its previous scale
weight or whatever the case maybe, it takes.

(01:06:26):
It can kind of be reset, but ittakes an excruciating amount of
work to, like you know, be muchmore slow and much more
meticulous about how you addcalories back in, and all of
that, but nine times out of 10,you're going to end up right
back where you were.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Right, I see a lot of injuries happen, most of the
time in teenagers with caloriedeficits.
You know they're growing, themetabolism is growing and
they're doing a lot more running, particularly cross country
female cross country runners, Imean and you look at what
they're eating, they're you knowthey're skipping lunch,
breakfast and a quick snackbefore the workout, but not

(01:07:05):
enough, you know, and they'rechronically coming back with an
injury or a re-agorated stressfracture.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
So it's always a conversation I try to have with
my athletes when I when I startkind of diving into their number
of injuries, number of issuesand it's it's not a comfortable
conversation.
You know, like they have like apeer group that that will kind
of stress them into not eatingenough because they're trying to

(01:07:35):
have this body image thatsociety tells them that they
have to be, but yet you knowthey're in this like high growth
stage of adulthood.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, the you know the disordered eating and eating
disorders and young girls andboys I mean, and you know young
athletes I mean, and even inadult men and women, under
eating is so prevalent.
And you know, I think you're ina, you're in a really cool
position.
That's actually just.
I think it's really cool thatyou just said that because, as a

(01:08:08):
physical therapist, I amcertain it's not something most
physical therapists are going todiscuss with their patients,
right?
Or their clients.
Do you call them clients orpatients?
Clients, clients, clients, yeah, wait, are you eating enough
for your body to recover fromwhat you're putting it through

(01:08:28):
in your athletic endeavor, right?
So if you think about it inthose terms and getting people
to understand that, like, okay,well, you're, you take the
information in this book and youcan use it in a sense of, like
that recovery and rebuild, notand and athletic performance,
right.
But if you're looking at peoplewith injuries, chronic injuries,
are you eating enough for yourbody to put those calories

(01:08:52):
towards?
Right, that inflammation inyour tendon to heal it?
Right?
Or are all your calories goingout the window because you're
not eating enough or not eatingenough of the right things?
Right?
Anti-inflammatory diets and allof that.
Are, you know, really criticaltoo to their?
You know there is recoverybased nutrition, right, it's a

(01:09:13):
thing.
And are there enough caloriescoming in?
That's a really hardconversation to have, but what a
cool opportunity you have that.
I don't think anybody istalking about right Like is is
most.
I mean, I've never met aphysical therapist?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Yeah, I mean, have not, it's not your.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
It's not your.
It's not your realm, right?
So even doctors don't ask.
You know the amount of doctorsthat people go and see and they,
you know they've got heartpalpitations or they're
overweight or they're this andthey're that.
Nobody at here's a here's aweight loss drug Did they ask
you if you're sleeping?
Did they ask you what yourhydration levels are?
Did they ask you what yourstress is like?
Did they you know, or you know?

(01:09:50):
Is anybody asking thesequestions?
And that's a big part of theproblem with our, with our
obesity problem, with ourmedical, with our medical
industry, with with the wholebig circle of things.
So you're in a really uniqueposition to be able to introduce

(01:10:10):
that from a differentperspective, right?
So you could help them withlike sort of a injury recovery
based you know, nutritionprotocol.
Are you eating enough for yourbody to recover?
It's a thing, right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Yeah, yeah, it's a hard place for PTs to kind of
get into because they alwaysfeel like you know where is my
place to talk about nutrition,but it's a hundred percent, you
know like it's.
You know, if we're looking atsomeone getting back from an
injury, yeah, you got to talkabout sleep.
You got to talk about thatstress management.
If you're not, you know you'releaving a lot on the table.
As far as, like the recoverytime, you know you do have to go

(01:10:48):
out there and get the education, read the books, learn for
yourself, cause even medicaldoctors like their education on
nutrition.
It's maybe like one semester,you know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Every doctor I've talked about.
It's not even that.
It's like a class.
They're like yeah, I got about30 minutes of like, a nutrition,
like or whatever right, likethe basis of nutrition.
Doctors are not there, andthey're also not in the business
of preventative medicine.
That's just not what doctors do.
They treat disease.
So you know, if you come inwith symptoms, they're going to

(01:11:19):
treat the symptoms and notunderstand the underlying cause
of the symptoms, right, whichthere is always an underlying
cause.
So so what?
So was that was my opinion onthe book what you expected.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Yeah, great.
So I know Tina is not someoneto not have strong opinions, and
this is definitely a topic thatpiqued my interest.
Always when it comes to likehuman evolution, you know what's
the standard out there and thenyou know learning about how

(01:12:01):
what your process looks like iseye-opening.
You know it's definitely yougot it down to like a science
and you have ways to coachpeople and kind of get them from
point A to B, and then you knowexplain to them as well the
science behind it, which youhave a great grass on, to figure
out how to distill that in likea small, you know, conversation

(01:12:24):
.
It's great.
You know, that's definitelywhat I was looking for.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Yeah, I mean, but it was.
I highly recommend the book.
It's very good.
I really did, aside from itbeing a little lengthy in some
areas where I'm just like, canwe, can we skip over some of the
anecdotal, like you drinkingwine with the Hadza or you know
when you're.
You know what I mean.
I'm just like some of it's justthere's a lot of filler, but
the information is good.
It really is a very good book.
I actually can't wait to finishthis.

(01:12:49):
I got about an hour and a halfleft of it on my Audible and he
mentioned another book, so Ithink the next one I'm gonna
read.
So we actually mentioned one.
I just added it to my library.
That what's it called?
Oh, shoot, I put it in my whereis my oh my.

(01:13:12):
Wish list.
I didn't order it yet.
It's called the Hungry Brain.
So he mentioned the scientistSteven G-U-Y-E-T.
I don't know how to pronouncethat, but that goes into more
detail outsmarting the instinctsthat make us overeat, right?
So it's going more detail into.

(01:13:33):
Whereas Byrne talks more aboutthe evolution of our metabolism,
this is gonna get into moredetail about how the brain
actually works.
So all the getting more intothe detail of the neuroscience
of it, which I love.
So I'm gonna read that one nextand see yeah, outsmarting, yeah
, the instincts that make usovereat.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Which is probably going to be.
I don't think I'm gonna learnanything new.
It's probably going to be thesame things we just discussed
right, like don't eat a lot ofhighly palatable foods.
You have to sort of embracethat you're gonna be hungry, you
know.
Eat nutrient dense foods andyou gotta check.
If weight loss is your goal,you gotta check your calories.
It just it is what it is.

(01:14:14):
I'm sorry people, there are nomagic diets.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Yeah, that'd be great .
I mean that'd be great.
You know segue, so you know,got the book too, check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
We'll discuss that one next.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
We'll start doing book reviews.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
Tina does book club.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
She does book club.
Yes, I like it All.
Right, this was goodinformation, but yeah, I think
it's good and hopefully peoplegot something out of this that
maybe they didn't know before.
Right, so you know, I thinkthat just is just exercising.
Exercise alone if weight lossis your goal, not gonna happen
right, there's a lot more to it.

(01:14:52):
Yeah, stop making yourself sickwith shitty food.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Do the work.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Everybody just gotta do the fucking work and keep
moving, because exercise isessential for your health.
It does help determine wherethose calories go.
It doesn't make you burn morecalories so that you get smaller
.
Exercise helps determine wherethose calories get to go.

(01:15:21):
Do they go to bad stuff or dothey go to good stuff, like
exercise?
Right, if you're not exercising, those calories go to bad stuff
.
Same calories go to bad stuffthey make you sick.
If you are exercising, thosecalories go to good stuff and
they make you better.
That's pretty simple, right,pretty simple.
Okay.
Good, all right, okay, well, Ithink that that will be it for

(01:15:44):
today.
Do you remember our sign off?
Don't get weird.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Don't get weird.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
Use your head, it will all be okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
All right, bye, bye.