September 18, 2025 • 34 mins
How to Deal With Burnout in Marketing
What if we told you that over 80% of marketers are dealing with burnout, and more than half feel overwhelmed, emotionally exhausted or undervalued? In this episode, we’re talking about why creative fatigue is hitting so hard… and how to fight back.
The Tia Mia is a modern riff on the Mai Tai that swaps the classic dark rum float for mezcal espadín, giving it smoky depth alongside funky Jamaican rum. Created in 2010 by bartender Ivy Mix for Julie Reiner’s Hawaiian-inspired New York bar Lani Kai, the Tia Mia was Mix’s first cocktail to hit a menu. Though Lani Kai closed after two years, the drink lived on, later becoming a staple at Leyenda in Brooklyn and featured in Mix’s book Spirits of Latin America.
Ingredients:
- 1 oz. mezcal espadín
- 1 oz. Jamaican rum
- 1/2 oz. orange curaçao
- 1/2 oz. orgeat
- 3/4 oz. fresh lime juice
- Garnish: mint sprig, lime wheel and edible orchid (optional)
Directions:
- Add all ingredients into a shaker with ice and shake until well chilled.
- Strain into a large rocks glass over crushed or pebbled ice.
- Garnish with lime wheel, mint sprig and orchid (optional).
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Hosts: Rich Mackey & Catelin Drey
Producer: Zac Hazen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
you feeling burnout zach uh, not yet okay, uh, today
we're going to talk about whatyou do when you feel burnout and
tapped out in marketing, um,and it's a big, big, big problem
yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I mean over 80 percent of marketers are dealing
with burnout in some way andmore than half feel overwhelmed,
emotionally exhausted orundervalued.
I think that's pretty.
When I was doing my researchand I came across that, I was
pretty surprised, honestly.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
It's a little bit wild.
So burnout is, I guess, what isit Like?
We can talk about that a littlebit before we get into our
cocktail.
The best thing I read is it'sover reuse without refueling.
So think about, like, if youtake a car too far, it's going
(01:01):
to die right.
Like because you got to eithercharge it if you're electric or
get gas.
But it's really chronicexhaustion.
So ups and downs in your likemotivation and your passion,
those are really normal, Likethat happens for everybody in
creative fields or in marketing.
But when you start to feel likeexhausted, um, you're mentally
(01:21):
drained, physically hurt, likefatigue, not motivated, and it's
chronic, it's consistent over along time.
That's burnout, Like just beinglike oh, I don't feel creative
today, I'm going to take a nap.
That's not burnout, that's justlike pausing.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And it's definitely more.
I feel like it's more common ina creative field to kind of
like what we'll get into.
But yeah, I think everyone inalmost any career has
experienced burnout at leastonce in their life, probably
multiple times.
And today we're going todefinitely talk about it and
talk about ways kind of you cancombat it and also, I think,
(01:59):
just taking a look at how itaffects marketing as a whole,
definitely in the marketingindustry, because those are some
high numbers 80% of marketersdealing with burnout.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, and I know we'll get into stats in a little
bit, but I was also readinglike 37% of people who
experienced burnout in creativefields just want to quit, like
they're ready to just give upand go do something else.
And I admit like I've thoughtof that, where you think about
like in our field, you just keepgoing, like nothing is ever
really done.
(02:27):
You just continue to improveand iterate and go, go, go, go
go.
And I feel for content creatorstoo, because it's even worse
right.
Like you just have to do so much.
And sometimes I feel like Ithink back to my days in like
college, working retail.
When you are done at a retailstore, you put everything away,
you close up, you go home andyou're done, like it doesn't
(02:51):
follow you.
You don't think about like, oh,how many sweaters am I going to
sell tomorrow?
Or you know what might mycommission be three weeks from
now?
You know, oh, I've got to gofind new clients to bring into
the store tomorrow.
You just don't like it's you'redone, um, and I really envy
that sometimes, where you'vecreated something and it's
finished and you can be proud ofit and you move on yeah, and I
(03:15):
think you kind of covered thecontent creation side of it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I think there's just so many different mark
strategies and marketing too,where, like, there's so many
different routes you could take,that sometimes that gets
overwhelming as well and you'rekind of at a crossroads of where
to go and that can cause that,cause it kind of a little bit of
a burnout.
But I feel like we're coveringa lot in the intro and maybe we
just need to get into thecocktail so that we can all
right, so the cocktail is a tiamia yes and I know nothing about
(03:44):
this cocktail, but it looksdelicious, so a Tiamia right
Interesting name.
It's actually a take on a MaiTai, so Tiamia it's kind of you
see where it's flipped around.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It's an anagram for Mai Tai, a very easy anagram.
It also means my aunt inSpanish, so like your auntie.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I did not know that.
So in 2010, I think we'vecovered this bartender before,
but Julie Renner opened aHawaiian-themed restaurant and
bar, lani Kai, in New York City.
They created the Tia Mia, ananagram of the Mai Tai kind of
like.
We said said for the drink listand uh, it's kind of been a
(04:28):
favorite ever since, but yeah,it's kind of it's more focused
on the mezcal side of things.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, it's interesting, so I'll um, I'll
dive into that a little bit.
So it's one ounce of mezcalespadine.
I think that's just mezcal Like.
I don't think it's anythingspecial.
Um, one ounce of jamaican rum.
uh, we have rum from st thomashere, because we went to st
thomas and bought a bunch of rumand brought it in oh you can
bring like I can't remember ifit was like two or three bottles
a person, but we had a bunch ofpeople who didn't drink.
(04:57):
So we're like you're bringingtwo bottles back and they're
like, uh, okay, um, half anounce of orange curacao.
You could probably also use nowI'm blanking on it Cointreau
for that, if you wanted to.
A little orange flavor, a halfan ounce of orgeat which is
spelled like orgeat, but it'sorgeat and then three quarters
(05:19):
of an ounce of fresh lime juice.
Squeeze it yourself, please.
Garnish is a mint sprig, a limewheel, and you can float an
edible orchid in there if youwant to.
So everything goes into theshaker, except your garnishes,
of course.
Don't put the orchid in theshaker.
Shake until chilled and yourhand is cold.
Strain into a large rocks glassover crushed or pebbled ice.
Ooh, pebble ice is so good.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I feel like that's like a signature tiki thing.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So fun fact, you can go to almost any fast food
restaurant that has pebble iceand you can buy a bucket of ice
if you're having a party orsomething.
Yeah, it's possible.
I think they still do it, butwho knows.
Anyway, it goes in there,should look really beautiful,
garnished with the lime wheel,mint sprig and then that orchid
if you want to, and it's a greattropical drink.
I know summer's kind of windingdown, like it sort of almost
(06:08):
feels like it's gone because theweather got cooler.
But this is a great one, verynice.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, honestly, by the time this goes out, it'll
probably be more of a fall time,right.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So put a pin in this one until spring, like next July
.
This will be a great drink foryou at the pool, are you a?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
fan of mezcal.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Rich, I love mezcal.
So what's really funny is Idon't generally like smoky
things Like smoked almonds notinterested.
Smoked salmon, not interested.
Love salmon, love almonds, notthe smoked, but mezcal it's got
that spicy smoke to it.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's just, I don't know, and maybe it's because
it's booze, I have no idea.
I love mezcal, I, and I lovesmoky things too, like I love
scotch.
I love barbecue all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So See, and I like um Carolina barbecue the most,
which is less smoky and morelike vinegar and mustardy like
that yellow pork and Carolinagold sauce.
Yep, carolina gold.
Love me some Carolina gold.
All right.
So that's the recipe, that'sthe intro, that's our takes on
barbecue sauce.
Shall we take a quick break andthen get into it with some
(07:14):
stats?
Let's do it all right.
So we're back and zach, you hada big stat at the beginning.
Was it 80 percent of marketers?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
yes, so 80 percent of marketers have felt or feeling
burnout of some kind like withinthe last year.
So yeah and crazy that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Like it's, I mean, and it's, but it's like it makes
sense, right, like we're movingfaster, we're doing more, we
have all.
Like we're moving faster, we'redoing more, we have all these
tools we're always on.
So I miss the days like, causeI'm old, in the early two
thousands, or even in the nine1990s.
Like I mean, I got at my firstcell phone in like 1997 or 1998.
Like, no, it was.
Yeah, no, that was that wouldprobably be it.
(08:03):
I had a work one before thatwhich was exciting, but that was
when I worked for Parks and Recand had to be on call.
But when I was at agencies inthe late 90s, early 2000s, you
had a desktop computer, not evena laptop.
You had a desk phone.
You had no smartphone.
Most of us didn't actually havecell phones.
And if we did, you paid perminute, you paid per text.
(08:23):
So nobody wanted to reimbursethat, so they didn't use it for
work.
So when you left at 5 o'clockyou were done until the next day
.
Now we would also work tilllike 7 or 8 at night to get
stuff done, because we couldn'tjust take it home, take a break
and then kick it up like laterin the evening.
But I kind of miss those daysand I feel like burnout was a
lot lower because you wereforced to take those breaks and
(08:46):
rest.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
We're forced to take those breaks and rest.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But yeah, and with content creators we kind of
mentioned, over half of creatorsfeel uninspired almost all the
time.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, I mean, it's just like kind of any creative
field, right, I think,especially with like content
creation and like contentmarketing.
Especially from like myexperience, it's really easy to
get caught up, kind of how I wassaying in the intro, and a lot
of different algorithm shifts,strategies, like okay, like I
(09:18):
have to post, you know like veryconsistently, what am I going
to post, without it being youknow the same thing over and
over again, Like how can I makethings interesting and different
?
And when you go down thatrabbit hole or you get stuck,
it's just so easy to startfeeling like ugh, Like not like
you're beating your head againsta wall, but kind of like you're
beating your head against awall trying to figure out.
(09:39):
you know where to go from, likethere, so I definitely know what
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, and in the early days of like Facebook and
Twitter so there wasn'tadvertising, there wasn't like
the algorithms were very basicand it was really about like
what are you doing today?
Like I mean, people wouldliterally tweet like I'm eating
the best sandwich ever.
I mean, people still do, Iguess.
But like that was really common.
It was kind of this they calledit microblogging for a reason
because it was sort ofdocumenting your day as you go
(10:05):
through.
But now it's like so intenseand also like everybody wants
video right, and video is harderto create than just I'm eating
a sandwich.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You know I'm going to the mall.
There's so many platforms nowtoo, like in this, like I said,
with the algorithm shifting likeyou just have to be so on top
of everything, just to you knowcompete in.
You know previous episodementioned here.
But the attention economy it'sso so very prevalent like,
especially like now.
I think it's just there's somany factors that lead to it.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And it extends out like beyond just social and
content, which I meaneverybody's kind of talking
about.
But you look at like you'redoing TV ads Okay, where's that
going to go?
Like, cause, you know, networkswere one thing.
There were like four networks,that's all we had.
And then there was cable andthere were like 10 or 15 cable
channels and then there werelike 200, and then it's
satellite, and now you've gotyou still have all that, but
(10:58):
you've also got streaming andeverything is getting diluted.
So the impact you have justcontinues to drop and that can
be deflating.
Right, like you just like arelike God, I just why do I do
this?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, you can have those moments of success where
you feel like you figured it outand then the next week it's
just like well, that same thingis no longer relevant.
Or like a month later, thestrategy that worked for you so
well, like recently, isn'tworking as well as it is, like
now.
You have to adapt and so, likeI said, it's just a lot of
shifting.
A lot of a lot of factors leadinto it, and marketing is such a
(11:35):
creative field and it'sconstantly shifting.
That it's.
You're bound to run into somekind of uh feeling of being
overwhelmed and, interestinglyenough, a stat that I have is
over 58% of marketers say theyfelt overwhelmed in the past
year, which is crazy.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So that's definitely a factor I feel like 58% of
marketers will say they feltoverwhelmed, like in the last 24
hours these days.
Like that's a pretty common one.
I think the other one that kindof hits here is when your work
shifts.
So I will like going to go likefull confession here.
I will admit that I havemoments where I'm just like what
(12:16):
are we even doing anymore?
Because, like I've worked onhuge campaigns for big companies
, we've gone to LA, we've shotwith celebrities, we've done all
this stuff which was really funand exciting and stressful in
its own way, but it's got thatlike there's just that innate
excitement to those kinds ofthings.
I mean, you're staying in SantaMonica on the beach, you're
driving to a Hollywood studioevery day.
(12:38):
You know it's just amazing andyou know we don't do that type
of work here.
Obviously, we work with smallerclients I mean, some of them are
pretty big but also we focus onlead gen, which gets you into
this more cerebral place and youstart doing less and less of
the big thinking, creative um,and you do kind of think like
(13:03):
what happened?
Is this all there is um, andthat's one of those things that
I'm challenged with and I have.
I do have a professional coachthat I work with I don't know if
you even knew that and we'rekind of working through that and
where the root of you know, myit's not really burnout yet, but
it's sort of this precursor toburnout and I want to nip it
because I want to keep doingthis for a while, so.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, and B2B marketing isn't exactly
glamorous, right Like?
I wouldn't say, like you know,it's like you said we're not
staying on the beach in SantaMonica to get anything done.
We aren't.
But I think that's another goodpoint, right Like?
You also really need to likeenjoy what you're doing to avoid
like being burnt out.
I mean, obviously noteverything you're going to be
(13:47):
doing.
24 seven is supposed to be fun,but, um, I think something to
remember also is just findingthose moments and those small
wins that, when you can, maybeyou're not making like a huge,
like impact, but even thosesmall wins where you're doing
something productive and also,just, you know, accomplishing
something towards the biggergoal is something that can
(14:09):
really help and has helped me inthe past, because when I look
at things from a big picturestandpoint, it's a lot more
overwhelming when I say, okay, Igot this done.
You know, I got this one thingdone or I had this big win on
the social posts.
Like, small wins are really big.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, they are.
I want to take a step back andjust like Small wins are really
big yeah they are.
I want to take a step back andjust like we've talked a little
bit about burnout, but let'stalk about exactly what it is
and how it's defined, oh forsure.
So like, how do you know you'regetting burnout?
You know, I just said one thingwhere I'm kind of like, you
know, a little bit like numb toit, like I don't even know, and
that's one of them emotionalnumbness.
You feel kind of detached, youkind of don't really care.
(14:47):
You're emotionally numb to thecreative work and other aspects
of your life.
You're just sort of like goingthrough the motion, this lack of
motivation.
You don't want to start andcomplete tasks because you just
don't feel like it.
Fatigue is a big one.
Just you're mentally andemotionally drained, even if you
rest, so that whole thing, andI'm sure you've done this before
(15:07):
.
You're like, oh, I'm just goingto go take like a 30 minute nap
and I'll be re-energized, andyou wake up from the nap way
more tired than you went intothe nap.
Like it happens, yourperformance starts to struggle,
like your performance isdecreased.
You're struggling to completetasks Maybe you're getting in
trouble or you're gettingreprimanded, things like that
(15:27):
and then avoidance, just nope,I'm going to be over here.
I'm not going to work on thistoday.
You just don't want to docreative things or you don't
want to go to the places whereyou've been creative before.
So those are really keyindicators and again, one or two
of those here and there.
You know I talked about youknow it's a precursor to burnout
Totally fine there.
(15:56):
You know I talked about.
You know it's a precursor toburnout um, totally fine, you'll
ebb and flow.
But if you got kind of all ofthose, or most of those,
consistently multiple days in arow, you're.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
You're definitely on the road to burnout, and that's
something that you need to like,identify for sure and kind of
combat, and there's ways thatyou can do that.
We've talked about onecelebrating the small wins.
Yep, um, I don't know about yourich, but I think, like some
one of the main like things thatI realize I catch when I'm
starting to feel burnt out is ifthings are like taking me like
(16:19):
longer than I want them to be,because like I'll get stuck on
one thing and it's just like, oh, I'm so frustrated like why is
this one thing like taking me solong?
But then, like I take a stepback and I think about it and
I'm like, maybe like I'm not asexcited about this project as I
have been in like other projects, but again, like I think
everyone's experienced that insome form, some form, especially
(16:42):
in marketing.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, you see that with writers a lot right Like
they're working on something andthey're just like, I'm not into
this writers a lot right, likethey're working on something and
they're just like I'm not intothis, I don't want to do this,
or they just avoid doing thingsuntil that.
The procrastination in writingand in creative can oftentimes
be that you're at least a bitburned out, so you're pushing
off and avoiding those thingsthat aren't that interesting.
And then, yeah, sometimes youtake a lot longer on something.
(17:04):
That is sometimes you'restretching it out because you
want to, and sometimes it's justbecause why?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
is this so hard?
Exactly yes, and it's like whenI like encounter those, I just
have to remind myself okay, likejust get it done, like you can
always go back and like make itbetter if you need to.
Like sometimes getting thingsdone is better than like you
know.
We've talked about it before100 hundred percent done is
better than you know.
I can't remember the saying.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Done is better than perfect.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Done is better than perfect and yeah, I think that's
important to remember withstuff like that too.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It is, I mean, and I think on a sort of scale like
what I would ask you, like, asyou know, the owner of the
agency and your boss's boss, Iguess, is you know, hey, zach,
like, are you more or less than50% of the time?
Do you feel like you're workingon things that suck?
Because we're all going to dothings that suck.
If it's 20, 30% of your job,that's pretty normal.
(17:58):
Like none of us have this likeknock it out of the park.
100% of what we do is superexciting every day, all day.
Like that would be exhaustingin and of itself.
But if you start to get belowthat 50%, where less than half
of what you're doing is stuffyou're excited about or feel
good about, that's when I startto think okay, let's, we need to
(18:19):
have a reset, we need to getback to that 70 to 80%.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
How do we do that?
And you discussed that in yourteam spotlight with Caitlin too.
Like I think I think that's apretty good example, right, Like
she wasn't exactly thrilledwith what she was doing and you
kind of sensed that.
So you went out and you know,talk to her, and now she's in a
really good spot really a halfand half hers was at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And which half do you hate?
Which half do you love?
And having a being like, areyou gonna fire me or make me
half time?
And it's like no, I'm gonnatake away what you hate and
we're gonna go find somebody wholoves that.
Because there are people who dolove like schedules and lists
and keeping people on track andthey get energy from that um 100
, I think, dovetailing on yours.
One of my my things that I foundis look at your past work.
So you know, like taking a stepback and reflecting is great,
(19:10):
but something in the past gotyou into this.
It gave you life, it gave youenergy.
Remind yourself why you'redoing this and what a good
feeling feels like and what isgood, and then kind of see if
you can apply that to whatyou're doing today or if you
need to make a hard reset.
Maybe you've evolved down apath that you don't want to go
(19:36):
down.
Well, was that old work down acompletely different path?
And do you need to make a hardchange?
Because some people do, butthat's a big one, especially if
you're if you're artistic so Ido photography.
We don't really talk about it.
I haven't shot anything newsince I moved to Omaha in 2017.
So I am now on an eight yearphotography drought and I mean,
(19:57):
and I used to schedule trips Iwould go like out into the
desert in.
California and spend a day justdriving around, walking around
and shooting, yeah, and I goback like I have my art all over
the house too, like if there'sa photo in our house it's
probably mine and I see them andI'm like God, that was so great
.
But it's like I don't have timeto go do that and I need to
(20:19):
kind of figure that out.
But that's like one of thosethings I've been I mean, that's
a chronic burnout Eight years.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, maybe you just haven't been inspired either.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
You know, like nothing's really caught your eye
in Omaha either you know, likenothing's really caught your eye
in omaha, yeah, I mean, and andpart of that is like change
your location right, which canbe a good thing for any burnout,
like go somewhere else, um, andthat's probably true like if I
went out through the sand hillswould I find things I wanted to
shoot, maybe?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
well and you bring up scheduling a trip just for it.
Maybe that's something you needto do like.
Maybe you just mute thosenon-urgent like things in your
block, some like block some timeout for it and just make the
time to do it, especially ifit's something that's really
important to you.
You know, like I think I think,like when I was talking about
like uh, not feeling like I'mnot able to like do something as
(21:07):
efficiently as I want to,something that's helped is just
muting the rest of the world fora couple of like an hour or two
and just making like that deepwork time.
Time blocking is really good.
I wish I would do that morehonestly on my calendar is just
marking off times where I'mspecifically doing one thing.
That way I'm not jumpingbetween so many different things
(21:29):
.
I think reducing my cognitiveload, kind of by grouping those
similar tasks instead ofswitching, like I said, would be
really big.
But yeah, I think I don't knowlike hearing you talk about that
stuff is kind of getting melike thinking what are some
things I can do?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
yeah, it happens next , but yep, and, and that's why
we have little icons in Slack.
Right, we have the little brainicon or even a do not disturb
if somebody's out, but the brainicon means only bother me if
this is an emergency and youabsolutely need me right now
because I am deep in doingsomething and I do not want to
be distracted.
And I think turning off thosenotifications, the um, the do
(22:11):
not disturb feature that Macshave, like you, there's a focus
one where it's only going topush through, like urgent
emergency things, um, that canbe helpful.
And we have the flip side too,right, that's like like the
green light or whatever it isthat we have in Slack.
That's like hey, you can likereach out to me, like, I want to
chat.
I'm feeling a little lonely inmy remote work and I think that
(22:34):
those, those are really good.
And you have a mood for thedifference of those, right, like
, sometimes it might be good foryou to take a break and just
chat with Riley for a littlewhile.
And that's going to get youmotivated to get back into it.
And sometimes you're like Ineed everybody to just shut up
and close out the world and Ihave to do this out the world
and I have to do this.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I think my biggest issue is I'm in between so many
things sometimes in my headwhere I like I'll run into
something and I'm like, oh, Iwant to fix that, or I want to
think of like a through, astrategy for that, but I need to
be doing this and wait, maybe Ican do this.
So just really having thatnarrow view of I'm going to be
doing this at this time wouldprobably be super, super helpful
for me.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, I'm curious if you resonate with this metaphor.
So somebody asked me at onepoint like when, why I have
trouble sleeping, why I havetrouble focusing sometimes, and
I said you know my brain,especially when I go to bed, it
is like I have 500 moviesrunning at the same time but
each one is just a little sliverof the screen.
(23:30):
But I want to watch all of themand I want to go through all of
them.
And I said it's hard to shutoff that noise.
And I found a couple of thingsthat do like melatonin, doesn't
like NyQuil, doesn't Z-Quildoesn't.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Oh my gosh, as someone, as someone with like
ADHD, like melatonin for somereason, like it actually like
increases my heart rate a littlebit, some reason like it
actually like increases my heartrate a little bit, Like I don't
know if it's because I'm likepsyching myself out for before
sleep, but that's also why I'mlike in between so many tasks
it's like ah, yeah, but thatwould be it.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think, um, that gets kind of my like.
My next point about like how tohelp yourself with burnout Um,
and this is, you know, somepeople are like, oh, this is so
cheesy, cheesy, but self-care,um, rest, refuel, reconnect with
yourself, with people, um, tryto move in some way, get up and
walk around.
You don't have to be like, youknow run a marathon or do a mile
(24:23):
.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Just yeah, you used to go for hikes with your dog in
the middle of the day well, Ispend like 15 minutes every day
like just walking Misa, likeit's that mental break that I
need.
I know it'll be in theafternoon and it's consistent.
So whenever I'm like reallyfeeling like, oh, I need to go
out and walk, like just go walkwith Misa.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And when it's not 105 degrees outside, it's much
nicer to do that, so oh, yeah,the weather's getting really
nice, so it's been like reallyenjoyable.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
but yeah, I think one of the first things that I ever
like said when I worked here, Imade like this infographic on
like how I kind of like how mycontent creation framework was,
and one of the things was, likeyou know, take a break when
you're doing it, or like take awalk, because when you're coming
up with like content, ideas,like it's really easy to get
deep into things and get stuckwith kind of that same writer's
(25:15):
block feeling, and if you're notreally making rest a part of
your workflow, it's really easyto get stuck on one idea or two
ideas and not be able to move onfrom that and if someone who's
trying to come up with a lot ofideas all the time like rest and
like walking Misa and makingsure I take mental breaks is
super important.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, and I think you know taking breaks is just key
and working from home so like,do things away from your desk,
Don't eat lunch at your desk.
You shouldn't do that in theoffice either but have some sort
of a routine that breaks upyour day.
So one of the things that Iused to do and I need to get
back to it, because I do eat atmy desk but I'm usually playing
like a video game or somethingon my computer to take a mental
break into something else, atleast during lunch.
(25:58):
But I used to watch a show.
Like I would have one hour showwhich is about 45 minutes.
I'd make my lunch, I would gosit in the living room, I would
watch that show.
It would get done at oneo'clock or a little before and
that would be my break.
So I'm completely puttingmyself in a whole other world.
I think that's a huge one.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I listen to podcasts while I work because it's just
like if I'm not watchingsomething, then listening to
something is really easy becauseyou know you can still have
your like focus on the screenthat you like.
You know your work screen, butpodcasts and music, those are
really good.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yep.
So I think the other point onself-care is um, say no.
I think this is hard for a lotof people.
Um, shonda Rhimes book, theyear of yes, what was my
favorite chapter was her, thechapter that surprised me.
Saying yes to saying no and likebasically giving yourself
permission to see when you'rebeing overused, overworked,
(26:56):
abused.
And saying no, I think,especially if you're freelancing
or a small agency or something,you kind of want to take every
project because money right, youjust we have to.
We need the money.
We've all been there and havingthe luxury of being very choosy
about your projects is a greatplace to get to.
But you do have to look at yourbalancing that financial gain
(27:19):
and your mental well-being.
Is it a bad client?
Are they mean?
Are they just going to dictateto you what you want to do and
that's going to make yourburnout worse?
Or are they like somebody who'sgoing to energize you, they're
going to give you that creativefreedom?
It's going to be more of a.
You know they'll respect yourexpertise and all of that.
And I think the first time youkind of do that rejection and
(27:40):
you say no to somebody, it justgets easier after that.
But saying no.
And even you, like you know,hey, can you chat saying no?
Not right now.
I'm deep in something like you,like you know, hey, can you
chat saying no?
Not right now.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I'm deep in something like it's important to do that,
just to keep yourself sane.
Totally agree.
I know we're getting a littletight on time.
But one thing I wanted to coverbefore we kind of close this is
the actual angle of feelingundervalued or feeling like you
have imposter syndrome, whichleads to burnout.
So I think marketers so this isa stat that I found, 80% of
(28:18):
marketers have felt like someform of imposter syndrome at
some point in their careers, andI think that's pretty common
and understandable.
With how many differentstrategies, best practices that
are flying around, I mean, wekeep bringing up how much the
industry shifts, but that is amajor impact on you feel like
you need to know everything, butthe reality is there's no way
(28:41):
you're going to know everythingin the world of marketing, and
so that definitely like feelinglike oh, like I really like
don't know what I'm doing, kindof thing.
Like there's just so manypeople out there putting out
good insights on LinkedIn and Ifeel like I'm nowhere at their
level.
I felt like that before, likeearly in my career, and I think
(29:02):
it's just super common right,like we're all comparing
ourselves to others and that'ssocial media for you.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And that's also a good reason to go look at your
past work.
Compare yourself to yourself.
Have you improved?
Is it going forward?
All of that, yeah, I thinkthat's a huge one, and there's a
reason that like fake it tillyou make it is a phrase, or fake
it till you feel it.
I mean, I've had impostersyndrome a few times, but I've
(29:33):
also, from a marketingstandpoint, been a little more
arrogant about my skills andwhat I can do and basically like
, oh, I can figure that out.
Like, oh, we've never done thatbefore, but I can figure that
out.
But if you tell a client we'venever done that before, or a
potential employer, they're likeI want somebody who has.
And you'd be like, oh yeah, youknow, that's 100% doable.
(29:55):
Blah, blah, blah.
And then you're likefrantically searching for how do
I do this?
But I've also been reallyself-taught for a long time, so
I just have that confidence ofthat piece.
But I definitely get impostersyndrome, moreover, with like
the CEO role or things like that, where I'm like you know, am I
actually good at leading thiscompany?
Like I don't know, like that'sthat's where I get it, versus
(30:19):
you know, you ask me like hey,can we geofence 42 locations in
random places around the countryand blah, blah, blah and what
would that cost?
And it's like, yeah, we can dothat, I'll let you know what
it'll cost and then we go figureout how to do it.
Or I call riley and I'm likeriley, draw some hexagons on
this map.
Here's what we need to do.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, for me, the way I think about it right is, I
think, my biggest.
The biggest time I kind of saidthis like briefly, but the
biggest time where I feelimposter syndrome is when I'm
comparing myself to others onLinkedIn, because there's so
many like content creators andcontent marketing, like people
that are doing really coolthings, and I'm like, oh, I need
(30:57):
to do that, like that's such agood idea.
And I think something that'simportant to remember is where I
started versus where I am now.
When I think of it that way,I'm like wow, like I have come a
lot farther than like I've everprobably expected that I would,
and having that proof of impactin my head is really important,
and I would recommend that, ifyou're feeling that way, like
compare yourself to where youstarted to where you are now and
(31:18):
keep something like maybe it'sa document, maybe it's a new
note keep track of the smallwins and victories and the
impact that you're making, andalso just recognize that like
self-doubt is also a sign thatyou're exploring something new
and learning, so it's notnecessarily something you need
to be like, oh I suck, like I'mnot good at this, like no like
(31:40):
you're not good at this yet,like, reframe that thought into
a positive thought and just bekind to yourself honestly.
Everyone needs.
Everyone needs to be kind tothemselves.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
You know, who never has self-doubt?
Narcissists?
True, like, having self-doubtis very healthy, 100%.
So I think the last point Iknow we got to wrap this up and
I get that but the last point is, like, reflect a little bit,
like think about what's drivingyour burnout.
Is it overworked?
Are you just getting boring,pedantic projects that you're
just like churning out the samething over and over?
Are your clients too difficult?
(32:16):
So nothing is fun?
And honestly, get some help.
You can actually talk to atherapist about this, because
burnout in life and burnout inwork are very, very similar.
You can also get a leadershipcoach or a work coach, like
those exist.
It's sort of a.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It is a form of therapy, but it's a little bit
different like do you have anylike perspective or hey, like
(32:54):
I'm feeling like a little bitlike like I need to like be
better at this.
Like you know, you can get somegood like materials for like
training and stuff like that too.
There's always like an avenue,that, where you can go for help
I think therapy, talking toother people or co-workers for
sure, like I think it'simportant to remember those
things.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yep, I agree.
All right, I think that is theepisode.
So hopefully anybody who'sfeeling burnout can like get in
there.
But if you figure out why,that's your first step to fixing
it.
And if you need help with that,you know, ask somebody, reach
out.
So, zach, if you're everburnout, you can reach out to me
anytime you want to and be likehey, I'm just not feeling it,
oh, a hundred percent.
You want to, and be like hey,I'm just not feeling it, oh,
100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
As always, you can find our agency at editout71.com
and all of our socials arethere as well.
If you have a question aboutburnout, maybe talk to a
therapist, but we can also helpyou with anything else marketing
related.
You can head our way.
You can head over toctapodcastlife to shoot us an
email.
Even better, leave us a voicemessage.
(33:53):
I would definitely put it inthe episode.
Go to our hotline at402-718-9971 to do that.
Your question will make it intoa future episode of our podcast
and in terms of what episode isgoing to be next week, I think
you know this is probably goingto be at the end of Q3.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
So your guess is as good as ours at the moment, but
it's going to be a great episode, so.
you feeling burnout zach uh, not yet okay, uh, today
we're going to talk about whatyou do when you feel burnout and
tapped out in marketing, um,and it's a big, big, big problem
yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I mean over 80 percent of marketers are dealing
with burnout in some way andmore than half feel overwhelmed,
emotionally exhausted orundervalued.
I think that's pretty.
When I was doing my researchand I came across that, I was
pretty surprised, honestly.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
It's a little bit wild.
So burnout is, I guess, what isit Like?
We can talk about that a littlebit before we get into our
cocktail.
The best thing I read is it'sover reuse without refueling.
So think about, like, if youtake a car too far, it's going
(01:01):
to die right.
Like because you got to eithercharge it if you're electric or
get gas.
But it's really chronicexhaustion.
So ups and downs in your likemotivation and your passion,
those are really normal, Likethat happens for everybody in
creative fields or in marketing.
But when you start to feel likeexhausted, um, you're mentally
(01:21):
drained, physically hurt, likefatigue, not motivated, and it's
chronic, it's consistent over along time.
That's burnout, Like just beinglike oh, I don't feel creative
today, I'm going to take a nap.
That's not burnout, that's justlike pausing.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And it's definitely more.
I feel like it's more common ina creative field to kind of
like what we'll get into.
But yeah, I think everyone inalmost any career has
experienced burnout at leastonce in their life, probably
multiple times.
And today we're going todefinitely talk about it and
talk about ways kind of you cancombat it and also, I think,
(01:59):
just taking a look at how itaffects marketing as a whole,
definitely in the marketingindustry, because those are some
high numbers 80% of marketersdealing with burnout.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, and I know we'll get into stats in a little
bit, but I was also readinglike 37% of people who
experienced burnout in creativefields just want to quit, like
they're ready to just give upand go do something else.
And I admit like I've thoughtof that, where you think about
like in our field, you just keepgoing, like nothing is ever
really done.
(02:27):
You just continue to improveand iterate and go, go, go, go
go.
And I feel for content creatorstoo, because it's even worse
right.
Like you just have to do so much.
And sometimes I feel like Ithink back to my days in like
college, working retail.
When you are done at a retailstore, you put everything away,
you close up, you go home andyou're done, like it doesn't
(02:51):
follow you.
You don't think about like, oh,how many sweaters am I going to
sell tomorrow?
Or you know what might mycommission be three weeks from
now?
You know, oh, I've got to gofind new clients to bring into
the store tomorrow.
You just don't like it's you'redone, um, and I really envy
that sometimes, where you'vecreated something and it's
finished and you can be proud ofit and you move on yeah, and I
(03:15):
think you kind of covered thecontent creation side of it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I think there's just so many different mark
strategies and marketing too,where, like, there's so many
different routes you could take,that sometimes that gets
overwhelming as well and you'rekind of at a crossroads of where
to go and that can cause that,cause it kind of a little bit of
a burnout.
But I feel like we're coveringa lot in the intro and maybe we
just need to get into thecocktail so that we can all
right, so the cocktail is a tiamia yes and I know nothing about
(03:44):
this cocktail, but it looksdelicious, so a Tiamia right
Interesting name.
It's actually a take on a MaiTai, so Tiamia it's kind of you
see where it's flipped around.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
It's an anagram for Mai Tai, a very easy anagram.
It also means my aunt inSpanish, so like your auntie.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I did not know that.
So in 2010, I think we'vecovered this bartender before,
but Julie Renner opened aHawaiian-themed restaurant and
bar, lani Kai, in New York City.
They created the Tia Mia, ananagram of the Mai Tai kind of
like.
We said said for the drink listand uh, it's kind of been a
(04:28):
favorite ever since, but yeah,it's kind of it's more focused
on the mezcal side of things.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, it's interesting, so I'll um, I'll
dive into that a little bit.
So it's one ounce of mezcalespadine.
I think that's just mezcal Like.
I don't think it's anythingspecial.
Um, one ounce of jamaican rum.
uh, we have rum from st thomashere, because we went to st
thomas and bought a bunch of rumand brought it in oh you can
bring like I can't remember ifit was like two or three bottles
a person, but we had a bunch ofpeople who didn't drink.
(04:57):
So we're like you're bringingtwo bottles back and they're
like, uh, okay, um, half anounce of orange curacao.
You could probably also use nowI'm blanking on it Cointreau
for that, if you wanted to.
A little orange flavor, a halfan ounce of orgeat which is
spelled like orgeat, but it'sorgeat and then three quarters
(05:19):
of an ounce of fresh lime juice.
Squeeze it yourself, please.
Garnish is a mint sprig, a limewheel, and you can float an
edible orchid in there if youwant to.
So everything goes into theshaker, except your garnishes,
of course.
Don't put the orchid in theshaker.
Shake until chilled and yourhand is cold.
Strain into a large rocks glassover crushed or pebbled ice.
Ooh, pebble ice is so good.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I feel like that's like a signature tiki thing.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So fun fact, you can go to almost any fast food
restaurant that has pebble iceand you can buy a bucket of ice
if you're having a party orsomething.
Yeah, it's possible.
I think they still do it, butwho knows.
Anyway, it goes in there,should look really beautiful,
garnished with the lime wheel,mint sprig and then that orchid
if you want to, and it's a greattropical drink.
I know summer's kind of windingdown, like it sort of almost
(06:08):
feels like it's gone because theweather got cooler.
But this is a great one, verynice.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, honestly, by the time this goes out, it'll
probably be more of a fall time,right.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So put a pin in this one until spring, like next July
.
This will be a great drink foryou at the pool, are you a?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
fan of mezcal.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Rich, I love mezcal.
So what's really funny is Idon't generally like smoky
things Like smoked almonds notinterested.
Smoked salmon, not interested.
Love salmon, love almonds, notthe smoked, but mezcal it's got
that spicy smoke to it.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's just, I don't know, and maybe it's because
it's booze, I have no idea.
I love mezcal, I, and I lovesmoky things too, like I love
scotch.
I love barbecue all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So See, and I like um Carolina barbecue the most,
which is less smoky and morelike vinegar and mustardy like
that yellow pork and Carolinagold sauce.
Yep, carolina gold.
Love me some Carolina gold.
All right.
So that's the recipe, that'sthe intro, that's our takes on
barbecue sauce.
Shall we take a quick break andthen get into it with some
(07:14):
stats?
Let's do it all right.
So we're back and zach, you hada big stat at the beginning.
Was it 80 percent of marketers?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
yes, so 80 percent of marketers have felt or feeling
burnout of some kind like withinthe last year.
So yeah and crazy that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Like it's, I mean, and it's, but it's like it makes
sense, right, like we're movingfaster, we're doing more, we
have all.
Like we're moving faster, we'redoing more, we have all these
tools we're always on.
So I miss the days like, causeI'm old, in the early two
thousands, or even in the nine1990s.
Like I mean, I got at my firstcell phone in like 1997 or 1998.
Like, no, it was.
Yeah, no, that was that wouldprobably be it.
(08:03):
I had a work one before thatwhich was exciting, but that was
when I worked for Parks and Recand had to be on call.
But when I was at agencies inthe late 90s, early 2000s, you
had a desktop computer, not evena laptop.
You had a desk phone.
You had no smartphone.
Most of us didn't actually havecell phones.
And if we did, you paid perminute, you paid per text.
(08:23):
So nobody wanted to reimbursethat, so they didn't use it for
work.
So when you left at 5 o'clockyou were done until the next day
.
Now we would also work tilllike 7 or 8 at night to get
stuff done, because we couldn'tjust take it home, take a break
and then kick it up like laterin the evening.
But I kind of miss those daysand I feel like burnout was a
lot lower because you wereforced to take those breaks and
(08:46):
rest.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
We're forced to take those breaks and rest.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
But yeah, and with content creators we kind of
mentioned, over half of creatorsfeel uninspired almost all the
time.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, I mean, it's just like kind of any creative
field, right, I think,especially with like content
creation and like contentmarketing.
Especially from like myexperience, it's really easy to
get caught up, kind of how I wassaying in the intro, and a lot
of different algorithm shifts,strategies, like okay, like I
(09:18):
have to post, you know like veryconsistently, what am I going
to post, without it being youknow the same thing over and
over again, Like how can I makethings interesting and different
?
And when you go down thatrabbit hole or you get stuck,
it's just so easy to startfeeling like ugh, Like not like
you're beating your head againsta wall, but kind of like you're
beating your head against awall trying to figure out.
(09:39):
you know where to go from, likethere, so I definitely know what
you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, and in the early days of like Facebook and
Twitter so there wasn'tadvertising, there wasn't like
the algorithms were very basicand it was really about like
what are you doing today?
Like I mean, people wouldliterally tweet like I'm eating
the best sandwich ever.
I mean, people still do, Iguess.
But like that was really common.
It was kind of this they calledit microblogging for a reason
because it was sort ofdocumenting your day as you go
(10:05):
through.
But now it's like so intenseand also like everybody wants
video right, and video is harderto create than just I'm eating
a sandwich.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You know I'm going to the mall.
There's so many platforms nowtoo, like in this, like I said,
with the algorithm shifting likeyou just have to be so on top
of everything, just to you knowcompete in.
You know previous episodementioned here.
But the attention economy it'sso so very prevalent like,
especially like now.
I think it's just there's somany factors that lead to it.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
And it extends out like beyond just social and
content, which I meaneverybody's kind of talking
about.
But you look at like you'redoing TV ads Okay, where's that
going to go?
Like, cause, you know, networkswere one thing.
There were like four networks,that's all we had.
And then there was cable andthere were like 10 or 15 cable
channels and then there werelike 200, and then it's
satellite, and now you've gotyou still have all that, but
(10:58):
you've also got streaming andeverything is getting diluted.
So the impact you have justcontinues to drop and that can
be deflating.
Right, like you just like arelike God, I just why do I do
this?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, you can have those moments of success where
you feel like you figured it outand then the next week it's
just like well, that same thingis no longer relevant.
Or like a month later, thestrategy that worked for you so
well, like recently, isn'tworking as well as it is, like
now.
You have to adapt and so, likeI said, it's just a lot of
shifting.
A lot of a lot of factors leadinto it, and marketing is such a
(11:35):
creative field and it'sconstantly shifting.
That it's.
You're bound to run into somekind of uh feeling of being
overwhelmed and, interestinglyenough, a stat that I have is
over 58% of marketers say theyfelt overwhelmed in the past
year, which is crazy.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So that's definitely a factor I feel like 58% of
marketers will say they feltoverwhelmed, like in the last 24
hours these days.
Like that's a pretty common one.
I think the other one that kindof hits here is when your work
shifts.
So I will like going to go likefull confession here.
I will admit that I havemoments where I'm just like what
(12:16):
are we even doing anymore?
Because, like I've worked onhuge campaigns for big companies
, we've gone to LA, we've shotwith celebrities, we've done all
this stuff which was really funand exciting and stressful in
its own way, but it's got thatlike there's just that innate
excitement to those kinds ofthings.
I mean, you're staying in SantaMonica on the beach, you're
driving to a Hollywood studioevery day.
(12:38):
You know it's just amazing andyou know we don't do that type
of work here.
Obviously, we work with smallerclients I mean, some of them are
pretty big but also we focus onlead gen, which gets you into
this more cerebral place and youstart doing less and less of
the big thinking, creative um,and you do kind of think like
(13:03):
what happened?
Is this all there is um, andthat's one of those things that
I'm challenged with and I have.
I do have a professional coachthat I work with I don't know if
you even knew that and we'rekind of working through that and
where the root of you know, myit's not really burnout yet, but
it's sort of this precursor toburnout and I want to nip it
because I want to keep doingthis for a while, so.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, and B2B marketing isn't exactly
glamorous, right Like?
I wouldn't say, like you know,it's like you said we're not
staying on the beach in SantaMonica to get anything done.
We aren't.
But I think that's another goodpoint, right Like?
You also really need to likeenjoy what you're doing to avoid
like being burnt out.
I mean, obviously noteverything you're going to be
(13:47):
doing.
24 seven is supposed to be fun,but, um, I think something to
remember also is just findingthose moments and those small
wins that, when you can, maybeyou're not making like a huge,
like impact, but even thosesmall wins where you're doing
something productive and also,just, you know, accomplishing
something towards the biggergoal is something that can
(14:09):
really help and has helped me inthe past, because when I look
at things from a big picturestandpoint, it's a lot more
overwhelming when I say, okay, Igot this done.
You know, I got this one thingdone or I had this big win on
the social posts.
Like, small wins are really big.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, they are.
I want to take a step back andjust like Small wins are really
big yeah they are.
I want to take a step back andjust like we've talked a little
bit about burnout, but let'stalk about exactly what it is
and how it's defined, oh forsure.
So like, how do you know you'regetting burnout?
You know, I just said one thingwhere I'm kind of like, you
know, a little bit like numb toit, like I don't even know, and
that's one of them emotionalnumbness.
You feel kind of detached, youkind of don't really care.
(14:47):
You're emotionally numb to thecreative work and other aspects
of your life.
You're just sort of like goingthrough the motion, this lack of
motivation.
You don't want to start andcomplete tasks because you just
don't feel like it.
Fatigue is a big one.
Just you're mentally andemotionally drained, even if you
rest, so that whole thing, andI'm sure you've done this before
(15:07):
.
You're like, oh, I'm just goingto go take like a 30 minute nap
and I'll be re-energized, andyou wake up from the nap way
more tired than you went intothe nap.
Like it happens, yourperformance starts to struggle,
like your performance isdecreased.
You're struggling to completetasks Maybe you're getting in
trouble or you're gettingreprimanded, things like that
(15:27):
and then avoidance, just nope,I'm going to be over here.
I'm not going to work on thistoday.
You just don't want to docreative things or you don't
want to go to the places whereyou've been creative before.
So those are really keyindicators and again, one or two
of those here and there.
You know I talked about youknow it's a precursor to burnout
Totally fine there.
(15:56):
You know I talked about.
You know it's a precursor toburnout um, totally fine, you'll
ebb and flow.
But if you got kind of all ofthose, or most of those,
consistently multiple days in arow, you're.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
You're definitely on the road to burnout, and that's
something that you need to like,identify for sure and kind of
combat, and there's ways thatyou can do that.
We've talked about onecelebrating the small wins.
Yep, um, I don't know about yourich, but I think, like some
one of the main like things thatI realize I catch when I'm
starting to feel burnt out is ifthings are like taking me like
(16:19):
longer than I want them to be,because like I'll get stuck on
one thing and it's just like, oh, I'm so frustrated like why is
this one thing like taking me solong?
But then, like I take a stepback and I think about it and
I'm like, maybe like I'm not asexcited about this project as I
have been in like other projects, but again, like I think
everyone's experienced that insome form, some form, especially
(16:42):
in marketing.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, you see that with writers a lot right Like
they're working on something andthey're just like, I'm not into
this writers a lot right, likethey're working on something and
they're just like I'm not intothis, I don't want to do this,
or they just avoid doing thingsuntil that.
The procrastination in writingand in creative can oftentimes
be that you're at least a bitburned out, so you're pushing
off and avoiding those thingsthat aren't that interesting.
And then, yeah, sometimes youtake a lot longer on something.
(17:04):
That is sometimes you'restretching it out because you
want to, and sometimes it's justbecause why?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
is this so hard?
Exactly yes, and it's like whenI like encounter those, I just
have to remind myself okay, likejust get it done, like you can
always go back and like make itbetter if you need to.
Like sometimes getting thingsdone is better than like you
know.
We've talked about it before100 hundred percent done is
better than you know.
I can't remember the saying.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Done is better than perfect.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Done is better than perfect and yeah, I think that's
important to remember withstuff like that too.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It is, I mean, and I think on a sort of scale like
what I would ask you, like, asyou know, the owner of the
agency and your boss's boss, Iguess, is you know, hey, zach,
like, are you more or less than50% of the time?
Do you feel like you're workingon things that suck?
Because we're all going to dothings that suck.
If it's 20, 30% of your job,that's pretty normal.
(17:58):
Like none of us have this likeknock it out of the park.
100% of what we do is superexciting every day, all day.
Like that would be exhaustingin and of itself.
But if you start to get belowthat 50%, where less than half
of what you're doing is stuffyou're excited about or feel
good about, that's when I startto think okay, let's, we need to
(18:19):
have a reset, we need to getback to that 70 to 80%.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
How do we do that?
And you discussed that in yourteam spotlight with Caitlin too.
Like I think I think that's apretty good example, right, Like
she wasn't exactly thrilledwith what she was doing and you
kind of sensed that.
So you went out and you know,talk to her, and now she's in a
really good spot really a halfand half hers was at the time.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And which half do you hate?
Which half do you love?
And having a being like, areyou gonna fire me or make me
half time?
And it's like no, I'm gonnatake away what you hate and
we're gonna go find somebody wholoves that.
Because there are people who dolove like schedules and lists
and keeping people on track andthey get energy from that um 100
, I think, dovetailing on yours.
One of my my things that I foundis look at your past work.
So you know, like taking a stepback and reflecting is great,
(19:10):
but something in the past gotyou into this.
It gave you life, it gave youenergy.
Remind yourself why you'redoing this and what a good
feeling feels like and what isgood, and then kind of see if
you can apply that to whatyou're doing today or if you
need to make a hard reset.
Maybe you've evolved down apath that you don't want to go
(19:36):
down.
Well, was that old work down acompletely different path?
And do you need to make a hardchange?
Because some people do, butthat's a big one, especially if
you're if you're artistic so Ido photography.
We don't really talk about it.
I haven't shot anything newsince I moved to Omaha in 2017.
So I am now on an eight yearphotography drought and I mean,
(19:57):
and I used to schedule trips Iwould go like out into the
desert in.
California and spend a day justdriving around, walking around
and shooting, yeah, and I goback like I have my art all over
the house too, like if there'sa photo in our house it's
probably mine and I see them andI'm like God, that was so great
.
But it's like I don't have timeto go do that and I need to
(20:19):
kind of figure that out.
But that's like one of thosethings I've been I mean, that's
a chronic burnout Eight years.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, maybe you just haven't been inspired either.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
You know, like nothing's really caught your eye
in Omaha either you know, likenothing's really caught your eye
in omaha, yeah, I mean, and andpart of that is like change
your location right, which canbe a good thing for any burnout,
like go somewhere else, um, andthat's probably true like if I
went out through the sand hillswould I find things I wanted to
shoot, maybe?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
well and you bring up scheduling a trip just for it.
Maybe that's something you needto do like.
Maybe you just mute thosenon-urgent like things in your
block, some like block some timeout for it and just make the
time to do it, especially ifit's something that's really
important to you.
You know, like I think I think,like when I was talking about
like uh, not feeling like I'mnot able to like do something as
(21:07):
efficiently as I want to,something that's helped is just
muting the rest of the world fora couple of like an hour or two
and just making like that deepwork time.
Time blocking is really good.
I wish I would do that morehonestly on my calendar is just
marking off times where I'mspecifically doing one thing.
That way I'm not jumpingbetween so many different things
(21:29):
.
I think reducing my cognitiveload, kind of by grouping those
similar tasks instead ofswitching, like I said, would be
really big.
But yeah, I think I don't knowlike hearing you talk about that
stuff is kind of getting melike thinking what are some
things I can do?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
yeah, it happens next , but yep, and, and that's why
we have little icons in Slack.
Right, we have the little brainicon or even a do not disturb
if somebody's out, but the brainicon means only bother me if
this is an emergency and youabsolutely need me right now
because I am deep in doingsomething and I do not want to
be distracted.
And I think turning off thosenotifications, the um, the do
(22:11):
not disturb feature that Macshave, like you, there's a focus
one where it's only going topush through, like urgent
emergency things, um, that canbe helpful.
And we have the flip side too,right, that's like like the
green light or whatever it isthat we have in Slack.
That's like hey, you can likereach out to me, like, I want to
chat.
I'm feeling a little lonely inmy remote work and I think that
(22:34):
those, those are really good.
And you have a mood for thedifference of those, right, like
, sometimes it might be good foryou to take a break and just
chat with Riley for a littlewhile.
And that's going to get youmotivated to get back into it.
And sometimes you're like Ineed everybody to just shut up
and close out the world and Ihave to do this out the world
and I have to do this.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I think my biggest issue is I'm in between so many
things sometimes in my headwhere I like I'll run into
something and I'm like, oh, Iwant to fix that, or I want to
think of like a through, astrategy for that, but I need to
be doing this and wait, maybe Ican do this.
So just really having thatnarrow view of I'm going to be
doing this at this time wouldprobably be super, super helpful
for me.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, I'm curious if you resonate with this metaphor.
So somebody asked me at onepoint like when, why I have
trouble sleeping, why I havetrouble focusing sometimes, and
I said you know my brain,especially when I go to bed, it
is like I have 500 moviesrunning at the same time but
each one is just a little sliverof the screen.
(23:30):
But I want to watch all of themand I want to go through all of
them.
And I said it's hard to shutoff that noise.
And I found a couple of thingsthat do like melatonin, doesn't
like NyQuil, doesn't Z-Quildoesn't.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Oh my gosh, as someone, as someone with like
ADHD, like melatonin for somereason, like it actually like
increases my heart rate a littlebit, some reason like it
actually like increases my heartrate a little bit, Like I don't
know if it's because I'm likepsyching myself out for before
sleep, but that's also why I'mlike in between so many tasks
it's like ah, yeah, but thatwould be it.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think, um, that gets kind of my like.
My next point about like how tohelp yourself with burnout Um,
and this is, you know, somepeople are like, oh, this is so
cheesy, cheesy, but self-care,um, rest, refuel, reconnect with
yourself, with people, um, tryto move in some way, get up and
walk around.
You don't have to be like, youknow run a marathon or do a mile
(24:23):
.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Just yeah, you used to go for hikes with your dog in
the middle of the day well, Ispend like 15 minutes every day
like just walking Misa, likeit's that mental break that I
need.
I know it'll be in theafternoon and it's consistent.
So whenever I'm like reallyfeeling like, oh, I need to go
out and walk, like just go walkwith Misa.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And when it's not 105 degrees outside, it's much
nicer to do that, so oh, yeah,the weather's getting really
nice, so it's been like reallyenjoyable.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
but yeah, I think one of the first things that I ever
like said when I worked here, Imade like this infographic on
like how I kind of like how mycontent creation framework was,
and one of the things was, likeyou know, take a break when
you're doing it, or like take awalk, because when you're coming
up with like content, ideas,like it's really easy to get
deep into things and get stuckwith kind of that same writer's
(25:15):
block feeling, and if you're notreally making rest a part of
your workflow, it's really easyto get stuck on one idea or two
ideas and not be able to move onfrom that and if someone who's
trying to come up with a lot ofideas all the time like rest and
like walking Misa and makingsure I take mental breaks is
super important.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Yeah, and I think you know taking breaks is just key
and working from home so like,do things away from your desk,
Don't eat lunch at your desk.
You shouldn't do that in theoffice either but have some sort
of a routine that breaks upyour day.
So one of the things that Iused to do and I need to get
back to it, because I do eat atmy desk but I'm usually playing
like a video game or somethingon my computer to take a mental
break into something else, atleast during lunch.
(25:58):
But I used to watch a show.
Like I would have one hour showwhich is about 45 minutes.
I'd make my lunch, I would gosit in the living room, I would
watch that show.
It would get done at oneo'clock or a little before and
that would be my break.
So I'm completely puttingmyself in a whole other world.
I think that's a huge one.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I listen to podcasts while I work because it's just
like if I'm not watchingsomething, then listening to
something is really easy becauseyou know you can still have
your like focus on the screenthat you like.
You know your work screen, butpodcasts and music, those are
really good.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yep.
So I think the other point onself-care is um, say no.
I think this is hard for a lotof people.
Um, shonda Rhimes book, theyear of yes, what was my
favorite chapter was her, thechapter that surprised me.
Saying yes to saying no and likebasically giving yourself
permission to see when you'rebeing overused, overworked,
(26:56):
abused.
And saying no, I think,especially if you're freelancing
or a small agency or something,you kind of want to take every
project because money right, youjust we have to.
We need the money.
We've all been there and havingthe luxury of being very choosy
about your projects is a greatplace to get to.
But you do have to look at yourbalancing that financial gain
(27:19):
and your mental well-being.
Is it a bad client?
Are they mean?
Are they just going to dictateto you what you want to do and
that's going to make yourburnout worse?
Or are they like somebody who'sgoing to energize you, they're
going to give you that creativefreedom?
It's going to be more of a.
You know they'll respect yourexpertise and all of that.
And I think the first time youkind of do that rejection and
(27:40):
you say no to somebody, it justgets easier after that.
But saying no.
And even you, like you know,hey, can you chat saying no?
Not right now.
I'm deep in something like you,like you know, hey, can you
chat saying no?
Not right now.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I'm deep in something like it's important to do that,
just to keep yourself sane.
Totally agree.
I know we're getting a littletight on time.
But one thing I wanted to coverbefore we kind of close this is
the actual angle of feelingundervalued or feeling like you
have imposter syndrome, whichleads to burnout.
So I think marketers so this isa stat that I found, 80% of
(28:18):
marketers have felt like someform of imposter syndrome at
some point in their careers, andI think that's pretty common
and understandable.
With how many differentstrategies, best practices that
are flying around, I mean, wekeep bringing up how much the
industry shifts, but that is amajor impact on you feel like
you need to know everything, butthe reality is there's no way
(28:41):
you're going to know everythingin the world of marketing, and
so that definitely like feelinglike oh, like I really like
don't know what I'm doing, kindof thing.
Like there's just so manypeople out there putting out
good insights on LinkedIn and Ifeel like I'm nowhere at their
level.
I felt like that before, likeearly in my career, and I think
(29:02):
it's just super common right,like we're all comparing
ourselves to others and that'ssocial media for you.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And that's also a good reason to go look at your
past work.
Compare yourself to yourself.
Have you improved?
Is it going forward?
All of that, yeah, I thinkthat's a huge one, and there's a
reason that like fake it tillyou make it is a phrase, or fake
it till you feel it.
I mean, I've had impostersyndrome a few times, but I've
(29:33):
also, from a marketingstandpoint, been a little more
arrogant about my skills andwhat I can do and basically like
, oh, I can figure that out.
Like, oh, we've never done thatbefore, but I can figure that
out.
But if you tell a client we'venever done that before, or a
potential employer, they're likeI want somebody who has.
And you'd be like, oh yeah, youknow, that's 100% doable.
(29:55):
Blah, blah, blah.
And then you're likefrantically searching for how do
I do this?
But I've also been reallyself-taught for a long time, so
I just have that confidence ofthat piece.
But I definitely get impostersyndrome, moreover, with like
the CEO role or things like that, where I'm like you know, am I
actually good at leading thiscompany?
Like I don't know, like that'sthat's where I get it, versus
(30:19):
you know, you ask me like hey,can we geofence 42 locations in
random places around the countryand blah, blah, blah and what
would that cost?
And it's like, yeah, we can dothat, I'll let you know what
it'll cost and then we go figureout how to do it.
Or I call riley and I'm likeriley, draw some hexagons on
this map.
Here's what we need to do.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, for me, the way I think about it right is, I
think, my biggest.
The biggest time I kind of saidthis like briefly, but the
biggest time where I feelimposter syndrome is when I'm
comparing myself to others onLinkedIn, because there's so
many like content creators andcontent marketing, like people
that are doing really coolthings, and I'm like, oh, I need
(30:57):
to do that, like that's such agood idea.
And I think something that'simportant to remember is where I
started versus where I am now.
When I think of it that way,I'm like wow, like I have come a
lot farther than like I've everprobably expected that I would,
and having that proof of impactin my head is really important,
and I would recommend that, ifyou're feeling that way, like
compare yourself to where youstarted to where you are now and
(31:18):
keep something like maybe it'sa document, maybe it's a new
note keep track of the smallwins and victories and the
impact that you're making, andalso just recognize that like
self-doubt is also a sign thatyou're exploring something new
and learning, so it's notnecessarily something you need
to be like, oh I suck, like I'mnot good at this, like no like
(31:40):
you're not good at this yet,like, reframe that thought into
a positive thought and just bekind to yourself honestly.
Everyone needs.
Everyone needs to be kind tothemselves.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
You know, who never has self-doubt?
Narcissists?
True, like, having self-doubtis very healthy, 100%.
So I think the last point Iknow we got to wrap this up and
I get that but the last point is, like, reflect a little bit,
like think about what's drivingyour burnout.
Is it overworked?
Are you just getting boring,pedantic projects that you're
just like churning out the samething over and over?
Are your clients too difficult?
(32:16):
So nothing is fun?
And honestly, get some help.
You can actually talk to atherapist about this, because
burnout in life and burnout inwork are very, very similar.
You can also get a leadershipcoach or a work coach, like
those exist.
It's sort of a.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
It is a form of therapy, but it's a little bit
different like do you have anylike perspective or hey, like
(32:54):
I'm feeling like a little bitlike like I need to like be
better at this.
Like you know, you can get somegood like materials for like
training and stuff like that too.
There's always like an avenue,that, where you can go for help
I think therapy, talking toother people or co-workers for
sure, like I think it'simportant to remember those
things.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yep, I agree.
All right, I think that is theepisode.
So hopefully anybody who'sfeeling burnout can like get in
there.
But if you figure out why,that's your first step to fixing
it.
And if you need help with that,you know, ask somebody, reach
out.
So, zach, if you're everburnout, you can reach out to me
anytime you want to and be likehey, I'm just not feeling it,
oh, a hundred percent.
You want to, and be like hey,I'm just not feeling it, oh,
100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
As always, you can find our agency at editout71.com
and all of our socials arethere as well.
If you have a question aboutburnout, maybe talk to a
therapist, but we can also helpyou with anything else marketing
related.
You can head our way.
You can head over toctapodcastlife to shoot us an
email.
Even better, leave us a voicemessage.
(33:53):
I would definitely put it inthe episode.
Go to our hotline at402-718-9971 to do that.
Your question will make it intoa future episode of our podcast
and in terms of what episode isgoing to be next week, I think
you know this is probably goingto be at the end of Q3.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
So your guess is as good as ours at the moment, but
it's going to be a great episode, so.
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