August 21, 2025 • 32 mins
Is Direct Mail Marketing Worth It?
If you could achieve an 80 to 90% open rate on your next marketing campaign, would you go for it? Even if it’s a direct mail campaign? In this episode, we’re exploring whether direct mail still works in 2025, what the data shows and our thoughts on the topic.
Brandy Alexander
The Brandy Alexander is a creamy, decadent cocktail that gained popularity in the 1970s, particularly in upscale Manhattan bars. It’s a brandy-based variation of the original Alexander, a pre-Prohibition cocktail made with gin, crème de cacao and cream. The original is believed to have been created by bartender Troy Alexander at NYC’s Hotel Rector.
Ingredients:
- 1 1/2 oz. cognac
- 1 oz. dark creme de cacao
- 1 oz. heavy cream
- Garnish: grated nutmeg
Directions:
- Add cognac, dark creme de cacao and heavy cream into a shaker with ice and shake until well-chilled.
- Strain into a chilled cocktail glass or a coupe glass.
- Garnish with freshly grated nutmeg.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
if you could get an 80 to 90 open rate on your next
marketing campaign, would youtake it, even if it's a direct
mail campaign?
And uh, yeah, we're going totalk about that in this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Rich, good to see you all right, well, I mean, that's
, that's a hook, zach, like Ithink I don't know who would say
no to that.
Um, though, like there's, thiswhole is direct mail dead.
Is it live?
Is it?
You know, on life support, um,and I think it's a great, great
topic because, um, you know,it's just a I don't know.
It's an interesting one becauseeverybody has an opinion, right
(00:38):
, like, and as we were doingresearch, I was trying to find
stuff and I'm like, oh, likesome interesting facts, but
we'll get to those in a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place too Like some
people say, oh, it's aresurgence, like buy into direct
mail now.
And other people are like, well, actually it's dying and, like
you said, we'll talk more aboutthat in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, and then there's the whole don't call it
a comeback people like whereit's like it was never dead,
it's always been fine.
Um, I think direct mail isdifferent, though, and we're
going to talk about that.
So, like, this isn't going tobe like you know, your, your
grandpa's direct mail episode,um, but we can uh, we can get
into like, does it still work?
What's some of the data on it?
And then what do we think?
You know how do we feel aboutit as marketers?
So, all right, you've got acocktail, and I love this one
(01:23):
because it sounds like a person,brandy Alexander.
It sounds like a girl you wentto high school with and she was
kind of problematic.
Her name is Brandy Alexander.
So what's this one?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
about cocktail which I thought was interesting to
pair with brandy gainedpopularity in the 1970s in
upscale Manhattan bars.
I feel like I've said thatbefore about other cocktails on
this show.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
But I mean Manhattan was cocktail culture in the 60s,
70s.
I mean it kind of always iswhere you think about like
cocktails yeah that's very true?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I think so.
This one is a brandy-basedvariation on the original
Alexander, which is aprohibition cocktail made of gin
, creme de cacao and cream.
So instead of gin, this isbeing replaced by brandy, and
the original is believed to havebeen created by Troy Alexander
(02:22):
at New York City's Hotel Rector.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, those New York City hotel bars just crank out
the cocktails like nobody'sbusiness.
Been created by troy alexanderat new york city's hotel rector,
which, yeah, those new yorkcity hotel bars just crank out
the cocktails like nobody'sbusiness.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And it's always some random guy like it's all I.
It's interesting to me how theycan track that back to one
person if it becomes like thatpopular and what's wild about
this one is.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So, just to clarify, like what you said, so before
prohibition it was just analexander and it was basically
this, but with gin, yeah, andthen this is a post-redo of it,
the Brandy Alexander, which isits own thing in rights, came
about in the 70s, where somebodyjust decided to replace the gin
with cognac, and see whathappens, all right.
(03:03):
So, one and a half ounces ofcognac.
See what happens, all right.
So, um, one and a half ouncesof cognac, uh, which is brandy,
I mean, it's, uh, it's, you know, same same.
Uh, an ounce of dark creme decacao.
Um, I have, I have all of thisstuff here actually.
Uh, one ounce of cream, oh,that's the one thing I'd have to
go get, and you can garnish itwith a grated nutmeg.
(03:23):
So the cognac, dark cream andcream de cacao and the cream all
go into a shaker with ice andshake until well chilled, and
definitely don't shake until youhave, like you know, whipped
cream.
You're not trying to whip thecream, it's just get it all
mixed and get it chilled.
Strain that into a chilledcocktail glass or a coupe glass
I would absolutely say this is agreat one for a coupe glass and
(03:49):
then just garnish with freshlygrated nutmeg and that is it.
It's going to be a little bitfoamy, a little bit creamy, and
that nutmeg's just going to siton top.
It feels like a holiday drinkto me.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It feels like a great dessert drink, just like after
your meal.
Have that.
Oh man, I don't know Like wouldyou drink it, because usually I
know you're pretty like I am,either you will you won't so
this one.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So I'm not a not a brandy fan or a cognac fan.
I've had some brandy before,but I mean, it's typically, it's
just straight right.
It's in a brandy snifter.
You're drinking it like this.
Uh, so one.
I'm a huge fan of creme decacao.
Um, this has the cream in itand then the nutmeg.
I feel like the brandy is likejust an attendee at this one.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It's not the star of this show, um, I think it makes
it interesting because, like,how would you describe like the
taste of brandy?
I've had it before but likeit's not like a mental I don't
have like a mental note of howit tastes.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It really depends on the brandy, but sometimes it
tastes like overly fermentedfruit, like apples that have
gone bad, like it's got kind ofthat smell to it a little bit.
I don't know.
It's a hard one because it'syou know people like to.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Well, my thing is like, I'm only wondering because
, would it be like almost likelike a fruity chocolate kind of
flavor?
Is that kind of like?
Do you think like what it wouldtaste like, or um?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
it can, yeah.
So I mean, brandy's got alittle bit of spice to it, a
little bit of fruit to it.
It's a little bit oaky andthat's what kind of pushes it
into those kind of bourbon world.
Is that oakiness?
So you can get a brandy thatlike plays in between all of
that stuff.
So I think that what'shappening here is they're really
accenting a lot of that.
(05:36):
So the creme de cacao, thatchocolate, is going to really
help with, like, the fruit pieceof it and the fruitiness, and
then the nutmeg is going toenhance the spice and the cream
is really going to cut, um, someof that oakiness and smooth it
out.
So it's that's why I don'tthink that the cognac or the
brandy is really the star ofthis, because it's like it's
like an ensemble cast right likethere's no one standout they
(05:59):
all work together balance it.
Yeah, that makes sense yep,where like um, yeah, I just I
think this is an interesting one.
I think it's a good dessertdrink.
Maybe when we're in SanFrancisco for inbound we can
find a good Brandy Alexander ata bar and give it a shot.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
We're going to have to go down the list.
We have a lot of cocktails totry.
I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And I know you're working on finding us places to
go, but we do have to go to theconference as well.
Um, all right.
So with that should we uh wrapup the intro, take a quick break
and come back and talk aboutdirect mail.
Is it dead?
Is it not dead?
who knows what's going on withit yeah, let's look into it all
right, we are back and it's timeto put Zach on the spot.
(06:48):
You threw out in the hook an 80to 90% open rate, insinuating
that maybe that's what directmail gets.
What's going on there?
What's that stat and where doesthat come from?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So that came from Postalytics, which is something
that you'll find, which issomething that you'll find.
Some of these statistics thatlike, if you look up the state
of direct marketing or directemail, direct mail marketing,
not direct email marketing, butif you come, if you like, look
up, start looking things,looking into it, um, you'll run
into a lot of industry likeplatforms that are trying to
(07:19):
sell you on the idea of directmail.
So a lot of that, like thosestatistics and data points, can
be skewed.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, so take it with a grain of salt.
Open rates are, on average,higher for direct mail when
compared to email, but responserates typically land around 3%
to 5% for in-house lists sobasically lists that you're
already sending out direct mailto and then 1% to two percent
for lead gen campaigns, which iskind of a pretty big gap but
(07:47):
that's still like one to twopercent on lead gen is pretty
good, like email open rates andemail.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, email response rates can be that low from a lot
of people, depending on yourindustry and what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Um, okay, yeah, that's interesting yeah, so, and
I think one thing that I wasthinking when, like I was
reading that is how do youcalculate open rates for direct
mail?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right, because you're not standing here watching me
open my mail Are they lookingthrough my trash Like what's
going on with that?
And the other thing is like so,like a lot of it's just a
postcard.
Like, if I get the postcard outof the mail and look at it
while I throw it in therecycling, did I open it?
Is that postcard out of themail and look at it while?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I throw it in the recycling.
Did I open it?
Is that an open rate on thatpostcard?
Like, yeah.
So going into this, like Ididn't know much about direct
mail, but after looking into itI have some skepticisms about
like some of the things withinit or like some of the
strategies.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think it's also like when, when people hear
direct mail, and what's reallyfunny is you stumbled like
direct marketing direct email,because we don't say direct mail
as often email marketing aboutwhere you would buy this giant
(09:02):
list of people and you wouldjust send everybody like a
postcard, or you'd sendeverybody this letter or this
offer, and that's really not howit works again anymore.
So I'm going to talk about itas an integrated campaign.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
We'll get there and yeah, I think that's where it
makes sense For me.
I don't know, like open rates,like yeah, that's a huge number,
like we said, but it doesn'treally mean they're acting upon
what they're seeing.
For me, personally, when I getsomething in the mail that's
like marketing related, it goesstraight into the trash, unless
it's a really good deal orcoupon or something like that.
(09:39):
So I'm a.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I'm a good recycler so I open them.
So if my name is on the frontof it name and address, address,
like printed on the envelope Ijust shred the whole thing.
But if it's like not, I'll openit and take out anything that
doesn't have personallyidentifiable information on it,
recycle that and then I shredthe thing that has my name and
address on it.
So I do so.
I mean, but I don't thinkthat's an open rate, like I
(10:01):
opened it but I opened it withthe intent of sorting it,
shredding it, like that's justbeing a good recycler.
So all right.
So I'm going to put you on thehot seat a little bit more.
I've got some stats and I wantyou to actually guess before I
tell you what it is.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're Gen Z right?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yes, I'm like an elder Gen Z.
So your generation Gen Z.
What percent of your generationsays that they would miss it if
they didn't get any physicalmail?
No mail came, it just stopped.
No physical mail.
What percent of your generationsays they would miss it?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They would miss getting mail.
Oh man, I'm going to say like10% because I don't think many
people I mean Amazon packagesare pretty awesome Getting those
in the mail.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's mail, it's physical mail, like letters,
envelopes, magazines, thosethings.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I would say like 10% of people would actually miss it
and maybe that's too low, butmaybe that's too high.
I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So what's wild about?
About it, and this one kind ofblew my mind 72 in a really yeah
, and this was from a datasource.
It wasn't actually from adirect mail like um direct mail
company.
But now this is just mail,right?
This isn't if you're gettingdirect mail or getting offers in
the mail it's just getting mail.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I guess, if you start thinking about it like, yeah,
it would kind of suck not to getlike letters from family or
like letters like that I mean, Ithink there's a nostalgia part
right, because you did grow up,like with your grandma mailing
you a birthday card or achristmas card, those kinds of
things.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Um, so that may be.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Um, wow, that's way higher than I thought it was
gonna be.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah it was really high, um.
So here's one kind of to gowith your stats.
This is about marketers.
What percent of marketers saydirect mail gives them the best
ROI of any channel?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I mean, it depends on where this is coming from, like
what the source is in my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's a survey company .
They just surveyed marketers.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
This wasn't from a direct mail place.
Oh, surveyed marketers, thiswasn't from an industry.
Okay, uh, let's do like 40% 84%.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Oh my gosh, Wow.
So yeah, that one kind of blewme away.
So I'm going to and I'm goingto get to a point here with
these.
So yeah, the next one kind ofstarts to lift.
(12:52):
You'll get what increase?
Percent increase will you geton the campaign overall social
going email and I've been goingpretty low.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm gonna say like 80 or something like too high 63,
which is still really good,right a better than 50 lift and
then um, I will.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Then I'll give you a hint.
Between those two numbers ishow it will increase your
website visits.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Like percent increase in website visits.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yep, if you do it, integrated social email and
direct mail.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm going to go 80% again 70.
Oh, you said it was in between.
Oh, dang it.
I said it was in between.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I tried to lead you and as, oh, you said it was in
between.
Oh, I said it was in between.
I tried to lead you.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And as soon as you said, I was like oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And so here's what's interesting about it.
Um, the average person gets4,000 digital ads a day, and
which I know it's funny Causeyou want that to be shocking.
And when I saw that, I'm like,yeah, that's probably true, like
you know, know, like I look atlike in my email and on my phone
, like everything that's coming.
I was playing a game andthere's an ad that pops up like
(13:55):
yeah, you're probably getting anad like.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I wonder how many times you get an ad in like the
span of like 10 minutes ifyou're just on your phone, oh,
it's got to be multiples, likeper second.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I would think yeah, um.
So how many?
How many direct mail pieces doyou think people get a day on
average in the US?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Like in total or like per person.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Per person.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Per person Probably like six to seven Nailed it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
A hundred percent Six is the actual number, wow.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
That's great.
I got one of them right onYou've redeemed yourself.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So that's where you talk about, like that integrated
campaign, right?
Um, so some of those stats are,because it's part of an
integrated campaign and we'lltalk a little bit later about
how to do that.
Um, I think we might even giveyou a campaign everybody
campaign.
They can just steal and executetoday if they want to.
Um, but yeah, that's the thingis, you still have to reach
(14:50):
people via digital, right, it'snot dying, it's the way most
people are consuming media today.
That's just the way it is.
But much like anything like ifyou do just social, if you do
just banner ads, if you do justCTV, you're not going to get as
good a result as if you combinethings, and that's, I think,
where the magic happens.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
It's just one tool in the entire toolkit.
You need the whole kit toaccomplish you do.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
You do.
So what have you got like?
Where's your skepticism comingfrom?
Let's talk a little bit moreabout your skepticism.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So I am the type of person, like I said earlier,
that when I get a marketing mail, I am the type of person, like
I said earlier, that when I getlike a marketing mail, I will,
more than likely unless it's areally good deal and it really
stands out it's going straightto the recycling like you said.
And another thing that reallygrinds my gears is when I'll get
.
I'll get a piece of mail thatlooks super important, no
(15:49):
branding on it, Like it lookslike something different from
everything else that I've seen.
I open it and it's an ad tolike a credit card company
that's trying to get me to signoff to get their credit cards.
That's probably the most commonone I get actually.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Wait till you have a mortgage, because like so we'll
get things that have like re andthe name of the bank that has
our mortgage.
And then so you think like, oh,like, maybe it's something to
do with your mortgage and youopen it and it's like mortgage
insurance or it's a reversemortgage or it's a home equity
loan.
It has nothing to do with it.
(16:24):
The other one you get is itlooks like it's coming from the
city, like the city waterdepartment, and it's like a
sewer insurance thing, sewerlight insurance.
Those are like, again, as youget older and own a property,
like those are the ones that youget constantly.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Oh man, it is just.
I think that is like the main,like the main.
My main gripe with direct mailis that suspicious side of it or
that like, almost like I don'twant to say black hat, because
I'm thinking like black hat SEO,Black hat direct mail.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You heard it here first folks Black hat direct
mail.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And I was looking at a lot of.
So the data and marketingassociation did like a bunch of
consumer like surveys on likeconsumer behavior and how direct
mail like basically anything,everything with direct mail and
it said initial open rates wouldobviously increase a large
percentage.
But it feels extremelydeceptive and most people that
(17:20):
encountered mail like that likesaid they'd never work with that
brand again because it's justsomething that harms brand trust
.
When you get like deceptivemail like that, because like
it's one thing to send like ablank, like a clearly branded
piece of mail that you knowyou're getting yourself into and
(17:40):
it's another to get somethingthat's deceptive.
So that's one piece of theskepticism for me yeah, and I
agree with that and that's a.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's a big tactic.
It used to not be legal, butnow I mean, there's ways to
skirt it.
So you can't send somethingthat looks exactly like a
priority mail package or exactlylike a UPS envelope.
It can't be a direct ripoff,but companies have toyed with
(18:08):
that line to get as close asthey can, because if you get a
true USPS priority mailsomething, if you got something,
you might think it was maybefrom me or from a family member
or something important, and sothey try to mimic that and make
it look like it's urgent.
They'll put confidential on it.
So that's not what we'retalking about.
(18:29):
We're really looking atwell-branded direct mail to
somebody who cares about whatyou're doing.
You nailed it with the insidelist, the list of known people,
your customers.
An upsell, a cross-sell isgoing to get a way better
response than just a blind thing.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
My question is, Rich, what experience do you have
with direct mail marketing andwhat kind of people typically
see a better ROI from it?
Because from my perspective,I've never really worked with
direct marketing and I'm kind ofjust curious on who sees
success the most.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So I mean I've had quite a bit Like I've been at
places where we've done a ton ofdirect mail back in the 90s
especially Again, like we didn't.
We weren't really there was noemail marketing really at that
point.
Email was more for personal useand even then not a lot of
people had it Like you had AOL,you know, and there were banners
that's on AOL and whatnot.
(19:28):
So I think the thing that I'veseen is for retail.
It can work really well.
That again is to your customersand the goal with that is
usually to get a repeat visit.
So if your average customer isvisiting three times a year and
you want to get them to fourtimes or five times because
you're going to get more moneyfrom that.
But the issue is the same aswith email.
(19:49):
It's about the offer.
If you're just sending apostcard or something, so same
idea you send a 10% offer,probably not going to get much
response.
20% offer, 30% offer you'regoing to get more response.
So there's that piece Withbusiness to business.
What's been interesting for meis I've had the opportunity to
do some back in the day and evenmore recently that one.
(20:13):
It's a physical package.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So corporate gifting is more of.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Okay, but relevant corporate gift because, think
about it, if you get a genericenvelope in your office or a
postcard, or you get a small boxthat's well-branded and looks
interesting, which one are yougoing to open?
You're going to open the box.
I mean a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Oh, a hundred percent .
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Especially if you know what's in it or you have an
idea of what's in it.
So the thing with that is ithas to have, it has to have
value and with B2B sometimesthose things have like a 200,
300, 400, $500 value, um, butyou send them to just your top
like 10 or 15 prospects, thatkind of thing.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And where does that in your mind, where does that
fit?
Like in the funnel, like whatpoint would?
Would you send that to aprospect at the very bottom?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'm trying to get them over the hump and I need to
know that they're qualified, Ineed to know that they're worth
spending this money on.
I have to get them like it's,to get them over that last like
20 percent.
If I'm like at 80 percent, surethey're going to close.
I want to push them over theedge with something.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Would it work, middle of funnel, if you sent them
like an in, like a physicalguide or a physical offer?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, so when you look at a corporate gift of high
value, that's definitely a sortof a bottom of funnel.
As you move up the funnel,though, you can do it at all
three places.
So, for instance, our cocktailbook could be a middle of funnel
for prospects.
If we wanted to, I would want.
I mean it's it's pretty niche,so from a relevant standpoint,
I'd want to make sure that theyenjoy cocktails and whatnot.
Um, but that type of thing couldbe um could fit in there, but a
(21:58):
?
Um, a how to guide or achecklist, like some of the
things you'll do in email, youcan do in direct mail, and where
I think the real power is iscombining them right, and where
I think the real power is iscombining them right.
Yep, so if I've emailed you ourguide to choosing an agency in
2025, you know, or guide tochoosing an agency in the 21st
(22:19):
century, whatever we want tocall it and I've emailed you and
asked you to download that PDF,and you've opened my email a
few times, but you haven'tclicked on the link to download
the PDF.
Times but you haven't clickedon the link to download the PDF
might be worth it for me to maila printed version of that to
you A decent quality.
Maybe it's like a soft touch orsomething with a little intro
(22:42):
letter just in an envelope.
Maybe it's worth the $2 or $3to mail that to you.
So that's where you can kind ofcombine things and that would
definitely be more of a top ormiddle of funnel.
I feel like there needs to besomething between the top and
the middle.
But anyway, we're not going toreinvent the funnel today.
But that's where direct mailcan really work.
(23:07):
And that's again thatintegrated campaign.
If you've seen my banner ad, ifI'm targeting CTV ads to you,
if you've seen my social andI've emailed you and you still
haven't responded.
My last ditch is to putsomething physical in your hands
.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Because not everything works.
Not any one thing will workjust for one business or one
person.
You need to diversify howyou're putting things out there,
and that makes a lot of sense,yep, for I mean you were talking
a little bit about how much itcosts to send things to people.
I was doing some research andthe United States Postal Service
said, for every mailed likepiece of direct, like direct
(23:45):
marketing, like mail, right, itwas 50 cents to a dollar, 50 per
mail piece including printageand postage.
So that's about right.
So, um, I don't know, like howdoes that compare to like
running an email campaign withthis already established list,
or I mean so?
because well, and the reason Ibring that up too is because
(24:06):
when you're looking up a lot ofdirect mail platforms like
postal links, one of the majorselling points is that it's a
higher open rate than email, andit's better than email because
you'll get a higher likepercentage of people making a
decision.
But you're making the pointwhere it's not a one thing.
It's not like you don't want itto replace your email, you want
(24:27):
it to work together.
So I guess I'm just curious,like on some of that.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, and you mentioned Postalytics, and we
use them.
And the thing about Postalyticsis they're designed to be
integrated.
Now you can just launch acampaign from them.
But the other piece of it is itused to be expensive and cost
prohibitive because it was avolume based thing, right so,
and cost prohibitive because itwas a volume-based thing, right
so?
The more you send, the cheaperit got.
Like, if you're going to be 50cents on printing and sending,
(24:53):
you're sending tens of thousandsof those because you've got to
get that volume on the printingand the volume on the bulk rate
to be able to do that.
What Postalytics has done iskind of democratized direct mail
, and now what you can do isdirect mail on demand so you can
actually integrate it withHubSpot or with another tool.
(25:14):
They've got others where youcan have a workflow, do what I
just said.
You've emailed somebody.
They've opened the email twice,but they haven't actually
clicked the link or downloadedyour offer.
You can then push them over andemail them or, sorry, direct
mail them a postcard, a letter,an envelope, a printed piece,
(25:35):
and it's print-on-demand,mail-on-demand.
So it generally, depending onwhat you're doing, it can take,
you know, 24, 48 hours for it toactually go out, but you're
based on you're still based onbulk, but you're based on your
total volume and even if you'redoing just one-offs, it's, I
want to say, like a postcard isaround a buck, printed and
(25:55):
mailed all in.
And if you send one, you're fine.
If you send 20, they're fine.
You know somebody like us, wewe have some larger clients that
are sending larger things, sowe pre-buy and we can pass that
on to everybody.
Like that savings.
So I think we're at about $0.80a piece for a large postcard,
like a 6x9 postcard.
But you can send a letter, youcan send almost anything, and
(26:18):
that's where it gets better,because you're hitting somebody
that you know.
You're doing it cheaply andtimely.
You're not holding on to thingsfor three months to have enough
people to mail.
And then you're also um, it'smore relevant, right?
They've seen your offer already, you know.
So here's the deal.
They open the email.
That's the first trick on thisis we're not sending to people
(26:41):
who didn't open.
If they didn't open the emaildead to us, like we'll try to
email them with the new subjectline or whatever.
But if they open the email morethan once, something got them
but they didn't click.
So let's just put it in theirhand.
Let's just send it to them, putit in their hand.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, I'm feeling a little less skeptical after
hearing some of your insightsfrom all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I think my main point is, like with the skepticism is
is direct mail going to bearound like forever, even like
10, 20 years?
Is it still going to be like aviable thing?
Maybe because you know,packages aren't probably ever
going to like die.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So there's always going to be a place for mail.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
But I think I think there's a lot of interesting
ways that you can use it that Ididn't even think about before
this.
And I'm wondering, like I guessyou've kind of touched on a lot
of things you can do.
But if you, if a client, cameto us today and like wanted to
run a direct mail campaign, likewhat would you like?
What advice would you give themtill I get started?
(27:46):
It doesn't have to be a fullcampaign, but maybe just like a
quick start um, I mean samething I would do with digital.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I want you to hone in on your target customer as best
you can.
I want, I want that narrow.
I don't want to blast a zipcode like so that's the other
thing.
You used to have to blast zipcodes or neighborhoods or cities
, like depending, and now we canhit individuals.
It's the same as with cTV andaudio and like all that.
Use those principles fromdigital so narrow your audience,
be very focused, have anextremely relevant offer and
(28:17):
ideally, reach out to them insome way digitally, prior to
sending the direct mail piece,to sending the direct mail piece
.
And that's just an old schoollike if somebody heard you out
on the radio, saw you in thenewspaper, saw you on TV,
they're far more likely to act.
It's that awareness piece,right, and I think somebody
could do just direct mail.
(28:38):
The other option is you've gota list, you have addresses, but
you don't have email addresses.
Or you have email addresses butit's technically illegal for
you to email them because of thecanned spam act, so send them a
direct mail.
The other piece of this is nowlike open rates yes, so opening,
I don't know who opened what,and there's ways they try to
(28:59):
measure that or try tounderstand that, but conversions
and tracking is you absolutelycan track it.
So everything has what's calleda pearl, a personal URL.
There's usually a QR code, soif somebody goes to where you
want them to go, you're going toknow that that happened.
(29:21):
You also get delivery stats,you get forwarded stats, you get
return stats all of thosethings that you would normally
get, you'll see.
So I think it's worth a shotfor most companies to try it as
part of an integrated campaignand, honestly, it's just fun to
(29:41):
make physical pieces right.
It's kind of fun to printthings.
It's nostalgic.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, the way you frame it too is just like an
additional piece of the puzzle.
You can do it as its own thing.
I feel like in my head when Iwas like thinking, oh, some of
this you know, I don't knowabout some of this it was more
of just the people who send outmass amounts of mail with very
little to no relationship or anyidea of where I'm at in the
(30:10):
funnel, just spamming me in reallife.
That's the point.
I bought it.
I hate it, but using it in asmart and uh, you know, forward
thinking way makes a lot ofsense.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, I mean I get from a local furniture store.
I won't name them, but theyknow who they are.
I mean I get from a localfurniture store.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I won't name them, but they know who they are.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I know who they are.
Now, everybody knows who theyare.
I get three postcards a weekfrom them, every single week,
and it doesn't influence mydecision to go there or not.
I'm not going to see that TVsare 20% off and suddenly go buy
a new TV.
I don't need a new TV, so youknow.
The other thing is, with digitallists, you can get that in
(30:49):
market indicator.
So and I think that's where,like, combining these together
works well, if you can get youremail list or a digital list for
people who are in market forsomething and you have that
thing to offer and can give themsome sort of a hooker incentive
, that's going to be your.
Your CTV will work better, youraudio will work better, your
(31:10):
banner ads will work better,your social will work better.
Your direct mail will workbetter, like all of it will.
So I think it's not about um,it's not about direct mail dying
Like I don't think it's goingto die, honestly, um, and I
don't think it's dead.
I think it's about beingsmarter and more efficient, so
you're not wasting as much Sameas every channel.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
You don't need to send out thousands of pieces of
mail to try and make someone buya TV.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You know, shotgun versus rifle is the old thing
Like do you just try to hit asmany people as possible, hoping
that one of them's right, or doyou find the right people and go
straight at them?
And that's where the power isand that's what I would say we
need to do.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Awesome, I think we covered that pretty dang well, I
think so too.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It was exciting, like I don't know, like geeking out
about direct mail is a littleweird.
So we will have a new episodecoming.
Not sure what it is, butthere'll be one next week.
Take us home, Zach.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So if you have a question, like always, maybe
head your way.
Oh wait, wait, no, no, no.
Actually, go to our website,antidote71.com.
We have all of our socialsthere.
If you have a question you'dlike to send our way, head to
ctapodcastlive to shoot us anemail or, even better, leave us
a voice message on our hotlineat 402-718-9971.
(32:27):
Your question will probably beits own episode.
We'll probably roll out the redcarpet for you.
Maybe you can send us a mail ifyou have a question, if that's
your thing.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Our address is on the website, so on antidote71.com,
you can mail us if you want to.
All right, so we'll be back.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
See you next week.
if you could get an 80 to 90 open rate on your next
marketing campaign, would youtake it, even if it's a direct
mail campaign?
And uh, yeah, we're going totalk about that in this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Rich, good to see you all right, well, I mean, that's
, that's a hook, zach, like Ithink I don't know who would say
no to that.
Um, though, like there's, thiswhole is direct mail dead.
Is it live?
Is it?
You know, on life support, um,and I think it's a great, great
topic because, um, you know,it's just a I don't know.
It's an interesting one becauseeverybody has an opinion, right
(00:38):
, like, and as we were doingresearch, I was trying to find
stuff and I'm like, oh, likesome interesting facts, but
we'll get to those in a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place too Like some
people say, oh, it's aresurgence, like buy into direct
mail now.
And other people are like, well, actually it's dying and, like
you said, we'll talk more aboutthat in a little bit.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Well, and then there's the whole don't call it
a comeback people like whereit's like it was never dead,
it's always been fine.
Um, I think direct mail isdifferent, though, and we're
going to talk about that.
So, like, this isn't going tobe like you know, your, your
grandpa's direct mail episode,um, but we can uh, we can get
into like, does it still work?
What's some of the data on it?
And then what do we think?
You know how do we feel aboutit as marketers?
So, all right, you've got acocktail, and I love this one
(01:23):
because it sounds like a person,brandy Alexander.
It sounds like a girl you wentto high school with and she was
kind of problematic.
Her name is Brandy Alexander.
So what's this one?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
about cocktail which I thought was interesting to
pair with brandy gainedpopularity in the 1970s in
upscale Manhattan bars.
I feel like I've said thatbefore about other cocktails on
this show.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
But I mean Manhattan was cocktail culture in the 60s,
70s.
I mean it kind of always iswhere you think about like
cocktails yeah that's very true?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I think so.
This one is a brandy-basedvariation on the original
Alexander, which is aprohibition cocktail made of gin
, creme de cacao and cream.
So instead of gin, this isbeing replaced by brandy, and
the original is believed to havebeen created by Troy Alexander
(02:22):
at New York City's Hotel Rector.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, those New York City hotel bars just crank out
the cocktails like nobody'sbusiness.
Been created by troy alexanderat new york city's hotel rector,
which, yeah, those new yorkcity hotel bars just crank out
the cocktails like nobody'sbusiness.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And it's always some random guy like it's all I.
It's interesting to me how theycan track that back to one
person if it becomes like thatpopular and what's wild about
this one is.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So, just to clarify, like what you said, so before
prohibition it was just analexander and it was basically
this, but with gin, yeah, andthen this is a post-redo of it,
the Brandy Alexander, which isits own thing in rights, came
about in the 70s, where somebodyjust decided to replace the gin
with cognac, and see whathappens, all right.
(03:03):
So, one and a half ounces ofcognac.
See what happens, all right.
So, um, one and a half ouncesof cognac, uh, which is brandy,
I mean, it's, uh, it's, you know, same same.
Uh, an ounce of dark creme decacao.
Um, I have, I have all of thisstuff here actually.
Uh, one ounce of cream, oh,that's the one thing I'd have to
go get, and you can garnish itwith a grated nutmeg.
(03:23):
So the cognac, dark cream andcream de cacao and the cream all
go into a shaker with ice andshake until well chilled, and
definitely don't shake until youhave, like you know, whipped
cream.
You're not trying to whip thecream, it's just get it all
mixed and get it chilled.
Strain that into a chilledcocktail glass or a coupe glass
I would absolutely say this is agreat one for a coupe glass and
(03:49):
then just garnish with freshlygrated nutmeg and that is it.
It's going to be a little bitfoamy, a little bit creamy, and
that nutmeg's just going to siton top.
It feels like a holiday drinkto me.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
It feels like a great dessert drink, just like after
your meal.
Have that.
Oh man, I don't know Like wouldyou drink it, because usually I
know you're pretty like I am,either you will you won't so
this one.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So I'm not a not a brandy fan or a cognac fan.
I've had some brandy before,but I mean, it's typically, it's
just straight right.
It's in a brandy snifter.
You're drinking it like this.
Uh, so one.
I'm a huge fan of creme decacao.
Um, this has the cream in itand then the nutmeg.
I feel like the brandy is likejust an attendee at this one.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
It's not the star of this show, um, I think it makes
it interesting because, like,how would you describe like the
taste of brandy?
I've had it before but likeit's not like a mental I don't
have like a mental note of howit tastes.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
It really depends on the brandy, but sometimes it
tastes like overly fermentedfruit, like apples that have
gone bad, like it's got kind ofthat smell to it a little bit.
I don't know.
It's a hard one because it'syou know people like to.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Well, my thing is like, I'm only wondering because
, would it be like almost likelike a fruity chocolate kind of
flavor?
Is that kind of like?
Do you think like what it wouldtaste like, or um?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
it can, yeah.
So I mean, brandy's got alittle bit of spice to it, a
little bit of fruit to it.
It's a little bit oaky andthat's what kind of pushes it
into those kind of bourbon world.
Is that oakiness?
So you can get a brandy thatlike plays in between all of
that stuff.
So I think that what'shappening here is they're really
accenting a lot of that.
(05:36):
So the creme de cacao, thatchocolate, is going to really
help with, like, the fruit pieceof it and the fruitiness, and
then the nutmeg is going toenhance the spice and the cream
is really going to cut, um, someof that oakiness and smooth it
out.
So it's that's why I don'tthink that the cognac or the
brandy is really the star ofthis, because it's like it's
like an ensemble cast right likethere's no one standout they
(05:59):
all work together balance it.
Yeah, that makes sense yep,where like um, yeah, I just I
think this is an interesting one.
I think it's a good dessertdrink.
Maybe when we're in SanFrancisco for inbound we can
find a good Brandy Alexander ata bar and give it a shot.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
We're going to have to go down the list.
We have a lot of cocktails totry.
I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And I know you're working on finding us places to
go, but we do have to go to theconference as well.
Um, all right.
So with that should we uh wrapup the intro, take a quick break
and come back and talk aboutdirect mail.
Is it dead?
Is it not dead?
who knows what's going on withit yeah, let's look into it all
right, we are back and it's timeto put Zach on the spot.
(06:48):
You threw out in the hook an 80to 90% open rate, insinuating
that maybe that's what directmail gets.
What's going on there?
What's that stat and where doesthat come from?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So that came from Postalytics, which is something
that you'll find, which issomething that you'll find.
Some of these statistics thatlike, if you look up the state
of direct marketing or directemail, direct mail marketing,
not direct email marketing, butif you come, if you like, look
up, start looking things,looking into it, um, you'll run
into a lot of industry likeplatforms that are trying to
(07:19):
sell you on the idea of directmail.
So a lot of that, like thosestatistics and data points, can
be skewed.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So grain of salt.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, so take it with a grain of salt.
Open rates are, on average,higher for direct mail when
compared to email, but responserates typically land around 3%
to 5% for in-house lists sobasically lists that you're
already sending out direct mailto and then 1% to two percent
for lead gen campaigns, which iskind of a pretty big gap but
(07:47):
that's still like one to twopercent on lead gen is pretty
good, like email open rates andemail.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, email response rates can be that low from a lot
of people, depending on yourindustry and what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Um, okay, yeah, that's interesting yeah, so, and
I think one thing that I wasthinking when, like I was
reading that is how do youcalculate open rates for direct
mail?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Right, because you're not standing here watching me
open my mail Are they lookingthrough my trash Like what's
going on with that?
And the other thing is like so,like a lot of it's just a
postcard.
Like, if I get the postcard outof the mail and look at it
while I throw it in therecycling, did I open it?
Is that postcard out of themail and look at it while?
Speaker 1 (08:27):
I throw it in the recycling.
Did I open it?
Is that an open rate on thatpostcard?
Like, yeah.
So going into this, like Ididn't know much about direct
mail, but after looking into itI have some skepticisms about
like some of the things withinit or like some of the
strategies.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think it's also like when, when people hear
direct mail, and what's reallyfunny is you stumbled like
direct marketing direct email,because we don't say direct mail
as often email marketing aboutwhere you would buy this giant
(09:02):
list of people and you wouldjust send everybody like a
postcard, or you'd sendeverybody this letter or this
offer, and that's really not howit works again anymore.
So I'm going to talk about itas an integrated campaign.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
We'll get there and yeah, I think that's where it
makes sense For me.
I don't know, like open rates,like yeah, that's a huge number,
like we said, but it doesn'treally mean they're acting upon
what they're seeing.
For me, personally, when I getsomething in the mail that's
like marketing related, it goesstraight into the trash, unless
it's a really good deal orcoupon or something like that.
(09:39):
So I'm a.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I'm a good recycler so I open them.
So if my name is on the frontof it name and address, address,
like printed on the envelope Ijust shred the whole thing.
But if it's like not, I'll openit and take out anything that
doesn't have personallyidentifiable information on it,
recycle that and then I shredthe thing that has my name and
address on it.
So I do so.
I mean, but I don't thinkthat's an open rate, like I
(10:01):
opened it but I opened it withthe intent of sorting it,
shredding it, like that's justbeing a good recycler.
So all right.
So I'm going to put you on thehot seat a little bit more.
I've got some stats and I wantyou to actually guess before I
tell you what it is.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
So correct me if I'm wrong, but you're Gen Z right?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yes, I'm like an elder Gen Z.
So your generation Gen Z.
What percent of your generationsays that they would miss it if
they didn't get any physicalmail?
No mail came, it just stopped.
No physical mail.
What percent of your generationsays they would miss it?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
They would miss getting mail.
Oh man, I'm going to say like10% because I don't think many
people I mean Amazon packagesare pretty awesome Getting those
in the mail.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It's mail, it's physical mail, like letters,
envelopes, magazines, thosethings.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I would say like 10% of people would actually miss it
and maybe that's too low, butmaybe that's too high.
I don't even know.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
So what's wild about?
About it, and this one kind ofblew my mind 72 in a really yeah
, and this was from a datasource.
It wasn't actually from adirect mail like um direct mail
company.
But now this is just mail,right?
This isn't if you're gettingdirect mail or getting offers in
the mail it's just getting mail.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I guess, if you start thinking about it like, yeah,
it would kind of suck not to getlike letters from family or
like letters like that I mean, Ithink there's a nostalgia part
right, because you did grow up,like with your grandma mailing
you a birthday card or achristmas card, those kinds of
things.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Um, so that may be.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Um, wow, that's way higher than I thought it was
gonna be.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah it was really high, um.
So here's one kind of to gowith your stats.
This is about marketers.
What percent of marketers saydirect mail gives them the best
ROI of any channel?
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I mean, it depends on where this is coming from, like
what the source is in my mind.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's a survey company .
They just surveyed marketers.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
This wasn't from a direct mail place.
Oh, surveyed marketers, thiswasn't from an industry.
Okay, uh, let's do like 40% 84%.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Oh my gosh, Wow.
So yeah, that one kind of blewme away.
So I'm going to and I'm goingto get to a point here with
these.
So yeah, the next one kind ofstarts to lift.
(12:52):
You'll get what increase?
Percent increase will you geton the campaign overall social
going email and I've been goingpretty low.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm gonna say like 80 or something like too high 63,
which is still really good,right a better than 50 lift and
then um, I will.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Then I'll give you a hint.
Between those two numbers ishow it will increase your
website visits.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Like percent increase in website visits.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yep, if you do it, integrated social email and
direct mail.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm going to go 80% again 70.
Oh, you said it was in between.
Oh, dang it.
I said it was in between.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I tried to lead you and as, oh, you said it was in
between.
Oh, I said it was in between.
I tried to lead you.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
And as soon as you said, I was like oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And so here's what's interesting about it.
Um, the average person gets4,000 digital ads a day, and
which I know it's funny Causeyou want that to be shocking.
And when I saw that, I'm like,yeah, that's probably true, like
you know, know, like I look atlike in my email and on my phone
, like everything that's coming.
I was playing a game andthere's an ad that pops up like
(13:55):
yeah, you're probably getting anad like.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I wonder how many times you get an ad in like the
span of like 10 minutes ifyou're just on your phone, oh,
it's got to be multiples, likeper second.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
I would think yeah, um.
So how many?
How many direct mail pieces doyou think people get a day on
average in the US?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Like in total or like per person.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Per person.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Per person Probably like six to seven Nailed it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
A hundred percent Six is the actual number, wow.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
That's great.
I got one of them right onYou've redeemed yourself.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
So that's where you talk about, like that integrated
campaign, right?
Um, so some of those stats are,because it's part of an
integrated campaign and we'lltalk a little bit later about
how to do that.
Um, I think we might even giveyou a campaign everybody
campaign.
They can just steal and executetoday if they want to.
Um, but yeah, that's the thingis, you still have to reach
(14:50):
people via digital, right, it'snot dying, it's the way most
people are consuming media today.
That's just the way it is.
But much like anything like ifyou do just social, if you do
just banner ads, if you do justCTV, you're not going to get as
good a result as if you combinethings, and that's, I think,
where the magic happens.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
It's just one tool in the entire toolkit.
You need the whole kit toaccomplish you do.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
You do.
So what have you got like?
Where's your skepticism comingfrom?
Let's talk a little bit moreabout your skepticism.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So I am the type of person, like I said earlier,
that when I get a marketing mail, I am the type of person, like
I said earlier, that when I getlike a marketing mail, I will,
more than likely unless it's areally good deal and it really
stands out it's going straightto the recycling like you said.
And another thing that reallygrinds my gears is when I'll get
.
I'll get a piece of mail thatlooks super important, no
(15:49):
branding on it, Like it lookslike something different from
everything else that I've seen.
I open it and it's an ad tolike a credit card company
that's trying to get me to signoff to get their credit cards.
That's probably the most commonone I get actually.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Wait till you have a mortgage, because like so we'll
get things that have like re andthe name of the bank that has
our mortgage.
And then so you think like, oh,like, maybe it's something to
do with your mortgage and youopen it and it's like mortgage
insurance or it's a reversemortgage or it's a home equity
loan.
It has nothing to do with it.
(16:24):
The other one you get is itlooks like it's coming from the
city, like the city waterdepartment, and it's like a
sewer insurance thing, sewerlight insurance.
Those are like, again, as youget older and own a property,
like those are the ones that youget constantly.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Oh man, it is just.
I think that is like the main,like the main.
My main gripe with direct mailis that suspicious side of it or
that like, almost like I don'twant to say black hat, because
I'm thinking like black hat SEO,Black hat direct mail.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
You heard it here first folks Black hat direct
mail.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And I was looking at a lot of.
So the data and marketingassociation did like a bunch of
consumer like surveys on likeconsumer behavior and how direct
mail like basically anything,everything with direct mail and
it said initial open rates wouldobviously increase a large
percentage.
But it feels extremelydeceptive and most people that
(17:20):
encountered mail like that likesaid they'd never work with that
brand again because it's justsomething that harms brand trust
.
When you get like deceptivemail like that, because like
it's one thing to send like ablank, like a clearly branded
piece of mail that you knowyou're getting yourself into and
(17:40):
it's another to get somethingthat's deceptive.
So that's one piece of theskepticism for me yeah, and I
agree with that and that's a.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It's a big tactic.
It used to not be legal, butnow I mean, there's ways to
skirt it.
So you can't send somethingthat looks exactly like a
priority mail package or exactlylike a UPS envelope.
It can't be a direct ripoff,but companies have toyed with
(18:08):
that line to get as close asthey can, because if you get a
true USPS priority mailsomething, if you got something,
you might think it was maybefrom me or from a family member
or something important, and sothey try to mimic that and make
it look like it's urgent.
They'll put confidential on it.
So that's not what we'retalking about.
(18:29):
We're really looking atwell-branded direct mail to
somebody who cares about whatyou're doing.
You nailed it with the insidelist, the list of known people,
your customers.
An upsell, a cross-sell isgoing to get a way better
response than just a blind thing.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
My question is, Rich, what experience do you have
with direct mail marketing andwhat kind of people typically
see a better ROI from it?
Because from my perspective,I've never really worked with
direct marketing and I'm kind ofjust curious on who sees
success the most.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So I mean I've had quite a bit Like I've been at
places where we've done a ton ofdirect mail back in the 90s
especially Again, like we didn't.
We weren't really there was noemail marketing really at that
point.
Email was more for personal useand even then not a lot of
people had it Like you had AOL,you know, and there were banners
that's on AOL and whatnot.
(19:28):
So I think the thing that I'veseen is for retail.
It can work really well.
That again is to your customersand the goal with that is
usually to get a repeat visit.
So if your average customer isvisiting three times a year and
you want to get them to fourtimes or five times because
you're going to get more moneyfrom that.
But the issue is the same aswith email.
(19:49):
It's about the offer.
If you're just sending apostcard or something, so same
idea you send a 10% offer,probably not going to get much
response.
20% offer, 30% offer you'regoing to get more response.
So there's that piece Withbusiness to business.
What's been interesting for meis I've had the opportunity to
do some back in the day and evenmore recently that one.
(20:13):
It's a physical package.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
So corporate gifting is more of.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Okay, but relevant corporate gift because, think
about it, if you get a genericenvelope in your office or a
postcard, or you get a small boxthat's well-branded and looks
interesting, which one are yougoing to open?
You're going to open the box.
I mean a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Oh, a hundred percent .
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Especially if you know what's in it or you have an
idea of what's in it.
So the thing with that is ithas to have, it has to have
value and with B2B sometimesthose things have like a 200,
300, 400, $500 value, um, butyou send them to just your top
like 10 or 15 prospects, thatkind of thing.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And where does that in your mind, where does that
fit?
Like in the funnel, like whatpoint would?
Would you send that to aprospect at the very bottom?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'm trying to get them over the hump and I need to
know that they're qualified, Ineed to know that they're worth
spending this money on.
I have to get them like it's,to get them over that last like
20 percent.
If I'm like at 80 percent, surethey're going to close.
I want to push them over theedge with something.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Would it work, middle of funnel, if you sent them
like an in, like a physicalguide or a physical offer?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, so when you look at a corporate gift of high
value, that's definitely a sortof a bottom of funnel.
As you move up the funnel,though, you can do it at all
three places.
So, for instance, our cocktailbook could be a middle of funnel
for prospects.
If we wanted to, I would want.
I mean it's it's pretty niche,so from a relevant standpoint,
I'd want to make sure that theyenjoy cocktails and whatnot.
Um, but that type of thing couldbe um could fit in there, but a
(21:58):
?
Um, a how to guide or achecklist, like some of the
things you'll do in email, youcan do in direct mail, and where
I think the real power is iscombining them right, and where
I think the real power is iscombining them right.
Yep, so if I've emailed you ourguide to choosing an agency in
2025, you know, or guide tochoosing an agency in the 21st
(22:19):
century, whatever we want tocall it and I've emailed you and
asked you to download that PDF,and you've opened my email a
few times, but you haven'tclicked on the link to download
the PDF.
Times but you haven't clickedon the link to download the PDF
might be worth it for me to maila printed version of that to
you A decent quality.
Maybe it's like a soft touch orsomething with a little intro
(22:42):
letter just in an envelope.
Maybe it's worth the $2 or $3to mail that to you.
So that's where you can kind ofcombine things and that would
definitely be more of a top ormiddle of funnel.
I feel like there needs to besomething between the top and
the middle.
But anyway, we're not going toreinvent the funnel today.
But that's where direct mailcan really work.
(23:07):
And that's again thatintegrated campaign.
If you've seen my banner ad, ifI'm targeting CTV ads to you,
if you've seen my social andI've emailed you and you still
haven't responded.
My last ditch is to putsomething physical in your hands
.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Because not everything works.
Not any one thing will workjust for one business or one
person.
You need to diversify howyou're putting things out there,
and that makes a lot of sense,yep, for I mean you were talking
a little bit about how much itcosts to send things to people.
I was doing some research andthe United States Postal Service
said, for every mailed likepiece of direct, like direct
(23:45):
marketing, like mail, right, itwas 50 cents to a dollar, 50 per
mail piece including printageand postage.
So that's about right.
So, um, I don't know, like howdoes that compare to like
running an email campaign withthis already established list,
or I mean so?
because well, and the reason Ibring that up too is because
(24:06):
when you're looking up a lot ofdirect mail platforms like
postal links, one of the majorselling points is that it's a
higher open rate than email, andit's better than email because
you'll get a higher likepercentage of people making a
decision.
But you're making the pointwhere it's not a one thing.
It's not like you don't want itto replace your email, you want
(24:27):
it to work together.
So I guess I'm just curious,like on some of that.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, and you mentioned Postalytics, and we
use them.
And the thing about Postalyticsis they're designed to be
integrated.
Now you can just launch acampaign from them.
But the other piece of it is itused to be expensive and cost
prohibitive because it was avolume based thing, right so,
and cost prohibitive because itwas a volume-based thing, right
so?
The more you send, the cheaperit got.
Like, if you're going to be 50cents on printing and sending,
(24:53):
you're sending tens of thousandsof those because you've got to
get that volume on the printingand the volume on the bulk rate
to be able to do that.
What Postalytics has done iskind of democratized direct mail
, and now what you can do isdirect mail on demand so you can
actually integrate it withHubSpot or with another tool.
(25:14):
They've got others where youcan have a workflow, do what I
just said.
You've emailed somebody.
They've opened the email twice,but they haven't actually
clicked the link or downloadedyour offer.
You can then push them over andemail them or, sorry, direct
mail them a postcard, a letter,an envelope, a printed piece,
(25:35):
and it's print-on-demand,mail-on-demand.
So it generally, depending onwhat you're doing, it can take,
you know, 24, 48 hours for it toactually go out, but you're
based on you're still based onbulk, but you're based on your
total volume and even if you'redoing just one-offs, it's, I
want to say, like a postcard isaround a buck, printed and
(25:55):
mailed all in.
And if you send one, you're fine.
If you send 20, they're fine.
You know somebody like us, wewe have some larger clients that
are sending larger things, sowe pre-buy and we can pass that
on to everybody.
Like that savings.
So I think we're at about $0.80a piece for a large postcard,
like a 6x9 postcard.
But you can send a letter, youcan send almost anything, and
(26:18):
that's where it gets better,because you're hitting somebody
that you know.
You're doing it cheaply andtimely.
You're not holding on to thingsfor three months to have enough
people to mail.
And then you're also um, it'smore relevant, right?
They've seen your offer already, you know.
So here's the deal.
They open the email.
That's the first trick on thisis we're not sending to people
(26:41):
who didn't open.
If they didn't open the emaildead to us, like we'll try to
email them with the new subjectline or whatever.
But if they open the email morethan once, something got them
but they didn't click.
So let's just put it in theirhand.
Let's just send it to them, putit in their hand.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, I'm feeling a little less skeptical after
hearing some of your insightsfrom all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I think my main point is, like with the skepticism is
is direct mail going to bearound like forever, even like
10, 20 years?
Is it still going to be like aviable thing?
Maybe because you know,packages aren't probably ever
going to like die.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So there's always going to be a place for mail.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
But I think I think there's a lot of interesting
ways that you can use it that Ididn't even think about before
this.
And I'm wondering, like I guessyou've kind of touched on a lot
of things you can do.
But if you, if a client, cameto us today and like wanted to
run a direct mail campaign, likewhat would you like?
What advice would you give themtill I get started?
(27:46):
It doesn't have to be a fullcampaign, but maybe just like a
quick start um, I mean samething I would do with digital.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I want you to hone in on your target customer as best
you can.
I want, I want that narrow.
I don't want to blast a zipcode like so that's the other
thing.
You used to have to blast zipcodes or neighborhoods or cities
, like depending, and now we canhit individuals.
It's the same as with cTV andaudio and like all that.
Use those principles fromdigital so narrow your audience,
be very focused, have anextremely relevant offer and
(28:17):
ideally, reach out to them insome way digitally, prior to
sending the direct mail piece,to sending the direct mail piece
.
And that's just an old schoollike if somebody heard you out
on the radio, saw you in thenewspaper, saw you on TV,
they're far more likely to act.
It's that awareness piece,right, and I think somebody
could do just direct mail.
(28:38):
The other option is you've gota list, you have addresses, but
you don't have email addresses.
Or you have email addresses butit's technically illegal for
you to email them because of thecanned spam act, so send them a
direct mail.
The other piece of this is nowlike open rates yes, so opening,
I don't know who opened what,and there's ways they try to
(28:59):
measure that or try tounderstand that, but conversions
and tracking is you absolutelycan track it.
So everything has what's calleda pearl, a personal URL.
There's usually a QR code, soif somebody goes to where you
want them to go, you're going toknow that that happened.
(29:21):
You also get delivery stats,you get forwarded stats, you get
return stats all of thosethings that you would normally
get, you'll see.
So I think it's worth a shotfor most companies to try it as
part of an integrated campaignand, honestly, it's just fun to
(29:41):
make physical pieces right.
It's kind of fun to printthings.
It's nostalgic.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, the way you frame it too is just like an
additional piece of the puzzle.
You can do it as its own thing.
I feel like in my head when Iwas like thinking, oh, some of
this you know, I don't knowabout some of this it was more
of just the people who send outmass amounts of mail with very
little to no relationship or anyidea of where I'm at in the
(30:10):
funnel, just spamming me in reallife.
That's the point.
I bought it.
I hate it, but using it in asmart and uh, you know, forward
thinking way makes a lot ofsense.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, I mean I get from a local furniture store.
I won't name them, but theyknow who they are.
I mean I get from a localfurniture store.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I won't name them, but they know who they are.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I know who they are.
Now, everybody knows who theyare.
I get three postcards a weekfrom them, every single week,
and it doesn't influence mydecision to go there or not.
I'm not going to see that TVsare 20% off and suddenly go buy
a new TV.
I don't need a new TV, so youknow.
The other thing is, with digitallists, you can get that in
(30:49):
market indicator.
So and I think that's where,like, combining these together
works well, if you can get youremail list or a digital list for
people who are in market forsomething and you have that
thing to offer and can give themsome sort of a hooker incentive
, that's going to be your.
Your CTV will work better, youraudio will work better, your
(31:10):
banner ads will work better,your social will work better.
Your direct mail will workbetter, like all of it will.
So I think it's not about um,it's not about direct mail dying
Like I don't think it's goingto die, honestly, um, and I
don't think it's dead.
I think it's about beingsmarter and more efficient, so
you're not wasting as much Sameas every channel.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
You don't need to send out thousands of pieces of
mail to try and make someone buya TV.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
You know, shotgun versus rifle is the old thing
Like do you just try to hit asmany people as possible, hoping
that one of them's right, or doyou find the right people and go
straight at them?
And that's where the power isand that's what I would say we
need to do.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Awesome, I think we covered that pretty dang well, I
think so too.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It was exciting, like I don't know, like geeking out
about direct mail is a littleweird.
So we will have a new episodecoming.
Not sure what it is, butthere'll be one next week.
Take us home, Zach.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So if you have a question, like always, maybe
head your way.
Oh wait, wait, no, no, no.
Actually, go to our website,antidote71.com.
We have all of our socialsthere.
If you have a question you'dlike to send our way, head to
ctapodcastlive to shoot us anemail or, even better, leave us
a voice message on our hotlineat 402-718-9971.
(32:27):
Your question will probably beits own episode.
We'll probably roll out the redcarpet for you.
Maybe you can send us a mail ifyou have a question, if that's
your thing.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Our address is on the website, so on antidote71.com,
you can mail us if you want to.
All right, so we'll be back.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
See you next week.
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