May 22, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Cocktails, Tangents, and Answers, we sat down with Jesse Glade from Antidote 71 to vent about the web design trends that seriously need to die. We called out everything from the confusing layouts of Brutalist web design to those relentless pop-ups nobody asked for. And don’t get us started on scroll hijacking. Jesse broke down why these trends don’t just annoy users.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey Zach, how are?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
you today.
Hey, we're back.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Once again for anybody who missed the last
episode, I think that's when wetalked about it.
Well, actually a coupleepisodes ago, I don't know.
Caitlin is taking a littlepause.
She's doing a special projectfor us, and the first of those
just came out on Thursday, may8th.
It was me.
So we're doing employeespotlights, and so Caitlin is
spearheading those, and I wasthe first guinea pig for that,
(00:33):
and that is out there as of May8th.
You can find that on all oursocials and everywhere.
But today we're back to adifferent format.
So Zach's my co-host and we aregoing to talk about web design
trends that need to die withwith jesse, yep.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So jesse, our chief creative officer will be here.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Um, as you may know, if you've listened to the
podcast for a while, um, andgone through things jesse hates,
things jesse loves uh, thoseare two episodes from the past.
Uh, he has opinions, especiallywhen it comes to design and web
design, and he is uh veryqualified to give those opinions
too.
Um, I don't think his advicehas ever steered me wrong in
design, so and some of these arepretty bad.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Uh, he shared with me beforehand.
It's a lot of fun going throughthem something that he also
shared with me was today's drink, which isn't a cocktail.
So, yeah, so it wasn't acocktail.
If we were going to do acocktail, it was going to be
something super simple, like awhiskey, neat, and we also
debated.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
doing that's for his spotlight.
His whiskey neat is for hisspotlight.
That's easy there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That's a great one, but we also talked about maybe
just being funny with it anddoing a Coors Light.
We found this happy mediumwhere we chose a local craft
beer.
This one's from Jackson StreetBrewing.
It's called forgive me if I saythis wrong Tate Mata.
It is, in their words, theofficial Mexican-style beer of
El Camal.
I did not know what El Camalwas.
(02:01):
I talked to Riley.
It is apparently the Mexicanrestaurant kitchen within the
brewery, so you can order foodfrom there.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I thought it was really good.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I had no idea it existed, but pretty awesome.
It was designed by theirin-house kitchen staff and it
pairs really well with tacos andburritos, so it's just a solid
Mexican lager Sounds great to me.
I really want to try it nexttime I'm in Sioux City.
It's nice to have simple drinkslike this and support local
businesses.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Isn't it like 20 minutes north of Sioux City to
Jefferson, South Dakota?
If you're going to have this?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This is Jackson Street, not Jefferson.
Oh, this is Jackson Street,never mind, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Too many breweries.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Remember when True City had no breweries.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
There were none up there and now it's like swing a
cat and hit a brewery.
Don't swing a cat.
That's not very nice.
So yeah, the Tate Mata.
So funny.
There's a brunch place in DCcalled Tate, with two E's
T-A-T-T-E like latte, and it'slike a coffee shop tea shop.
(03:06):
They've got sandwiches brunch.
It's really good and for DCit's not terribly priced.
I actually love their tunasandwich.
It's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I really want to try the food at Jackson Street.
I didn't realize they had that.
Riley was really hyping it up.
I was kind of getting excitedabout it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So when we were there for our holiday party like a
month ago.
I noticed when you go back tothe bathrooms there is a kitchen
and it's got a little sign thatsays I must say El Comal, I'm
sure.
But yeah, like, why didn't wehave like giant plates of tacos?
Probably because we just atedinner and it was like 11 pm,
right.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It must have been All right.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So I think this is an interesting one.
It's a very simple one.
We don't have a recipe.
You just go there, get a TateMata, They'll put it in a glass
for you and you drink it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yep, so perfect beer for spring or summer.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think you should get some tacos while you get it.
But yeah, let's get into it.
Let's just cut this short andget into it with Jesse, all
right, and we are back and Zachis sticking around.
He'll jump in at some pointbecause I know he's got opinions
(04:17):
about websites.
Who doesn't have opinions aboutwebsites?
We all use them, right?
So, jesse, hey, welcome.
Hey, thanks for having me back.
So I assume you went to jacksonstreet and had a tate mata at
one point I, I did, I did.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I've been really into like the mexican lagers the
last few like months.
I guess that's that's hittingthe spot that's interesting like
it's.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
it's fun to me that, like a sioux city brewery is
doing a mexican style lager, um,right, there they're generally
darker and a little bit heavier.
Am I getting that right or no?
I'm not a beer drinker, so youcan just tell me I'm completely
wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I think it's like a Corona sometimes.
That's kind of what I think ofwith a Mexican lager.
And then there's like ModeloNegra, which is more of a darker
one.
So maybe that's what you'rethinking of, that's probably
what.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I'm thinking of.
Yeah, I don't know, lager justalways makes me think dark and
thick, but I guess that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
That's the wrong.
It's light, it's more like alight beer, like most light
beers are lagers.
Oh okay, that's probably abetter way of thinking of it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Okay, well, my beer education is stepping up a notch
here, but let's do a little bitof education on web design
trends that need to die.
Yes, jesse, I know you came upwith three great ones, so let's
just get into it.
What is your first one and why?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
does it suck.
I don't know how familiar thisterm is going to be for
everybody, but it's calledbrutalist web design and if you
are immediately thinking of likebrutalist, like architecture,
it's the same thing based offthe same principles.
It's very, almost kind of likeshock value and very rigid, and
(06:02):
when you apply that to webdesign, I don't know something
about it.
Well, probably the rigidityjust rubs me the wrong way and I
don't think it fits with a lotof what people do.
I think there's a place for it,just like everything, but for
the most part, whenever I see it, I just kind of cringe.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, I always think like whenever somebody says
brutalist, I think about likethe concrete apartment buildings
in some Soviet movie from theeighties, like they're just
sharp corners and cold colorsand just brutal Right, like
that's where the word comes from.
Um yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So, like throw that onto your screen and scroll
through it for a while and itwas just kind of jarring.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've seen a few of those where, like, the theme is
all black and white, like it'sjust a black background and
there's like white lines andline drawings and it's sharp
edges it.
It does feel a little painfuland I I can't think from a
marketing standpoint wherethat's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But I mean I'm sure there are certain websites that
like sure that will work I thinkI I see it a lot with like art
stuff, uh, whether that's like aphotography, um, like portfolio
.
Fashion sometimes a little bitgets into that, um, if you're
(07:20):
trying to be kind of like edgy,um, I think it's kind of
pretentious.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Maybe that's a little bit of a harsh term, but that's
just always what I think ofwhen I see it yeah, I think, um,
I think, if it fits your brandright, like if you're uh really
like, like there's some fashionthat is I don't think I call it
brutalist fashion, but it's allthose like sharp lines and darks
and blacks and it's supposed togive you this feeling of dread
Okay, that makes sense.
(07:44):
Or if you're an artist who'sworking in that style, that
makes sense.
But it goes back to what wetalked about with jumping on
trends.
This is a trend, right,brutalist became a trend, very
trendy.
Only do it if it fits your corebrand.
You have to do.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
You belong in that space and, uh, most people don't
like know your, um, your candybar doesn't need a brutalist
website yeah, and I think, likeusually, when you're trying to
sell something at least maybeeven if it's just a service like
that's not really the vibe thatyou want to come off with most
of the time, like, like, we'vebeen talking, there's, there's
(08:24):
definitely a place for it, butum, generally you want to put
people kind of at ease and, uh,give them, you know, really easy
ways to navigate around, and I,this just doesn't do it for me,
so yeah, it gets in the way ofusability like really fast um
it's just harsh on the eyes sothat's exactly what you want.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I want to go to a website that no one wants to
stay on like not the goal fromlike a functionality standpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Does it cause any issues too?
Because it's always like itseems like there's a lot going
on with it, so it's maybe justlike a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Like in terms of that too, would you say I would say
maybe not functionality, becausethey're all pretty simple as
far as the, the back end uh goesfor most of them, um, but I
feel like functionality.
It usually kind of confusespeople about where they're
actually supposed to interactwith things, because it's all
(09:24):
kind of vague.
Um, there's a lot of like bigtext and everything is kind of
spread out and, uh, sometimesthere's stuff all over that you
can click on and there's no, Ithink.
Okay, here's we're kind ofdrilling down to it.
It's.
It's really the hierarchy.
That's kind of messed up for me, um, because you lose that like
, read this headline, look atthis button, click this button,
(09:48):
and I think it's on purpose thatthey're messing with that.
But I think that's the partthat kind of comes in and reeks
havoc on a, on a lot of so it'ssacrificing kind of the best
practices just to match like anaesthetic.
Yeah, For shock value basically.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I mean to think about it as humans just going through
life, like we rely on colorsand shapes and cues and
differences to drive or navigateor walk somewhere, or just look
at something you know and readsomething that's a good one,
like I.
I've seen a few of those.
I think I'm seeing it less.
Thank goodness You're going toJesse's like yeah, let me send
(10:29):
you a list.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
There there is.
Maybe we can put that in thenotes somewhere.
There's like a big archive ofthem that you can just kind of
scroll through, and if you'reunfamiliar with what they are,
it gives you a really clear ideajust by scrolling through.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Nice, and then you can avoid it in the future,
please.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, and then send us it or something so we can rag
on it in the office.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Absolutely Okay.
So number two I completely getand agree with you on, but I
have some thoughts on it.
But go ahead and tell everybodywhat is your number two.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
But I have some thoughts on it, but go ahead and
tell everybody what is yournumber two?
I kind of figured and I'minterested to hear your thoughts
on number two, but it's pop-ups.
They will never not be on alist of things for websites that
need to die.
For me, I think, just like theBrutalist, and especially for
like on the opposite end, forpeople that are trying to sell
(11:22):
things, I get the the necessaryevil of them, um, and I think
there's a good and bad way to dothem, and that's probably where
where we agree rich, um, Ithink, when they're when they're
really bad.
And where I get frustrated withthem is, uh, they're poorly
timed, they take over way toomuch of your screen and they're
(11:43):
really frustrating to try tolike get out of.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
The thing that I hate is the new thing where and I've
seen this on so many there'sone website that does it, and I
can't remember what it is, butit's something that I go to a
lot the pop-up comes up and youcannot find the X, because it's
like a dark gray X on a blackbackground or a light gray x on
a white background, and it'sjust, or they move it, like they
put it on the left instead ofthe right um, they have fake
(12:10):
ones too, don't they?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
where it's like, actually like, if you click on
it it's like actually the ad,that's like the worst yeah, the
spammy ones like that arespecifically terrible.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I do hate them on , like, especially on news sites
, where you're like scrollingand you'll get a pop-up and then
there's a pop-up behind thepop-up and then another pop-up
and it's like I'm out.
Like you, first of all, youseem like a spam website that's
just trying to drop cookies andwhatever, which is what they're
doing.
But yeah, I agree with you thatmost people misuse pop-ups.
So I agree with you that mostpeople misuse pop-ups.
(12:55):
I do, and I appreciate youacknowledging that from a lead
capture standpoint, it can behelpful.
But here's the deal with thatyou don't have to do a pop-up.
You can do a slide down, Ithink, slide in in the lower
right corner and you see them.
You catch them out of thecorner of your eye.
It's not like you miss it.
And if you want to engage, youengage, but you're not forced to
close it, which is the otherthing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
They can close on their own, like, yeah, if I
don't do anything, yeah, and Ithink like when they are right
in the middle of where somebodyis reading, like that's my
biggest thing too is like if I'mlooking at a product or reading
an article and they pop upright in the center and like
disrupt what I'm currently doing.
(13:32):
That's when I get frustratedand I will almost bounce just
out of principle.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I mean, and I think that it's like it depends
on the site, right, like sowe're used to them on retail
websites.
You got to give me a deal andif your deal is 10, please don't
bother.
I'm not signing up for anythingfor 10, I need 20 or more.
Like it's just not happening umbut yeah sorry, I could really
affect your bounce rates tooyeah, definitely yeah, because
(14:00):
the easier thing to do than fillout or click that pop-up is to
hit like Command-W on mykeyboard and just close that
window.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So I get from, especially from like a sales
standpoint, like and even as aconsumer, like if there is a 25%
off, like sure I willacknowledge that percent off,
like sure I will acknowledgethat.
But if it's for somethingthat's not relevant to what I'm
doing currently and maybe timethat well enough, like if I'm on
a specific product page, notwhen I'm on the home page, just
(14:33):
seeing if I'm interested in theproduct at all, like maybe time
it a little bit better.
There's so many differenttriggers and things that you can
do for those.
You know whether it's a certainpercentage down the page.
Time you know whether theyclick something.
There's so many differentthings that you can kind of
tailor it to make it not asintrusive.
And when people ignore allthose and just throw it up right
(14:55):
in your face immediately whenyou land on the page, that's
that's terrible it's just likeah, it's like walking into a
restaurant and they're likehere's the menu Exactly, read it
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It's like no, I don't want to.
The thing that gets me is oneof the things and you're right
like time, time on page scrollwhich location it's at.
There's also how often theycome back, so like I don't have
to see it every time I come toyour site.
I don't have to see it everytime I come to your site.
I think ours comes back likeevery 15 days if you haven't
filled it out.
But also like, because we useHubSpot, if you're a known user,
(15:26):
we're not going to ask you tosubscribe, like you just don't.
So if we've dropped a cookiealready, there's no point in it.
The one that gets me, though, isthere's the exit intent pop-up
when you move your cursor up tothe menu bar.
Here's what gets me about itlike I don't really care,
because I'm probably going tojust close the window anyway if
I'm truly leaving, if your menuis in the upper right corner of
(15:47):
your website so many times.
I'm just going up to the menuto like pull something down, and
it gives me the exit pop-up andI'm like well, now I'm gonna
exit, like screw you, I'm outlike yeah, are you sure you want
to leave?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
like yes, don't ever ask me that again, maybe I
wasn't sure, but now I'mdefinitely sure it is a little
bit of the midwest.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Goodbye, right, like so I think we need to leave.
I was trying to slap my mythighs there, but I couldn't
like that.
Uh that, are you sure you wantto go here?
Take some, take some leftovers,you know, drive safe now, like,
yeah, no, don't need that in apop-up.
So the next one.
(16:30):
So, as you're talking aboutpop-ups and talking about them
like interrupting you, I wasgoing to jump in with something
that I was like reading thenotes and I'm like oh, no, like
what I'm thinking about is thisone, and this one is evil.
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
So number three is something called scroll
hijacking.
So if you're unfamiliar withthat, it's where a website, for
whatever function they're tryingto get across to you, it
manipulates the scroll to bewhatever they want it to be,
which, if you're used toscrolling on literally
everything else, it's jarringand it's uh, not intuitive
(17:06):
because they everybody kind ofdoes it a little bit different.
Um, so it's, it's terrible forusability, um, and most of the
time I just try to get throughit.
Sometimes it's maybe it's justa section on the page, but
either way, uh, it kind ofmesses with a user.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I've had some where and it used to be Safari was the
worst at it Like some websites,I would be scrolling and then
it would just jump like a wholepage and I'm like, so that's, I
think, the thing is.
If you fight it, you just misseverything because they're
trying to do it and you'retrying to do it and it just like
falls apart.
I also hate it when you'rescrolling and they and I don't
(17:51):
know if this is scroll hijackingor not, maybe it is but when
you're scrolling and suddenlysomething that has nothing to do
with the article you're readingis there and you can't get past
it, like you have to interactwith it.
It's sort of a pop-up, but it'sreally a scroll thing.
And then, if you like, scrollhard I'm doing it on my phone
(18:12):
apparently um, it'll jar itloose and it'll move up, but
it's actually part of the page,but it just like and I guess
that is scroll hijacking becausethey freeze the scroll and
force you to do something andI'm like I just want to get to
the article underneath this,like stop.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, it's.
It's really bad because thereare certain things that just are
intuitive now for for everybodyClicking is one of them,
scrolling is another.
Things that are just consistentno matter what browser or
screen or device that you're on,and when you mess with that,
you really mess with people,because it's almost like like
(18:52):
you forget how to walk and oryou know you're walking in a
really uneven surface and you'rejust like what's going on and
it's?
It's really um, kind ofunbalanced and just it.
It takes people out of the, theexperience which, if you're
trying to get somebody to lookat something or be interested in
a product, it can be reallydistracting yeah, and I mean
(19:14):
it's like it.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's sort of like if you watch a small child get on a
moving walkway at an airportfor the very first time and when
the walking is done for them,they have no idea what to do.
Or an escalator like Like thesteps are moving right, you just
have to jump on one and it'slike it's disorienting, it's a
mildly terrifying, and you justyou have to completely change
(19:35):
how you function to to adapt toit.
And that's not the point of webdesign.
Like I should be able to enjoy,immerse, observe, use and not
have to change who I am or howthings work.
Like don't alter my reality.
Like Jesus.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
And we've been pretty good at giving the like or
situation, so Zach will befamiliar.
We just had an example in ourcreative meeting that was one
that used this really wellBecause in the background was a
really well-timed animation thatwas scroll triggered, so not
(20:16):
necessarily taking over yourscroll, but it moved and
manipulated this gear type thing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Really complex, so I got another.
If I get a reward for scrolling.
I get this cool thing happening, but I'm still scrolling.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And then you can see it right now.
That'd be kind of cool okay,yeah, that'd be good, yeah, so
screen recording.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Edit on the youtube version oh, some magic, so like
things like that are done reallywell and some people use it
with products.
Um, when you're diving in alittle bit more and in deeper,
maybe it's something complicatedthat you have to like kind of
scroll through to see, um, but Ifeel like they always handle
that a little bit differently.
(21:01):
You're still scrollingnaturally, it doesn't like take
it over.
And where a big long scrollonly moves you a little bit,
like it feels more natural,you're still scrolling naturally
, it doesn't like take it over.
And where a big long scrollonly moves you a little bit,
like it feels more natural,you're still scrolling down the
page.
It's just moving something ormanipulating something as you're
doing it.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So same kind of principle, but like a better way
to do it, I guess yep,absolutely, and I was just like
thinking now I've got in my mindall these retail things that
happen that they should stopdoing.
I'm just going to put a pin init, though I'm not going to talk
about that here.
That's a whole other episode.
That is like retail shoppingwebsite horrors.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Zach you can write that down.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
We can do that at some point.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I feel like you can do a whole series on that.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I know there's just so much.
People do bad.
Any final thoughts?
Anything else you've got uh onyour mind.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Not really, I think just to.
To recap I think, um, we liketo joke about things that you
know trends that need to die andall that but, um, if it fits
for what your business is andwhat your brand is, there's
always a place for anything Likeyou can make anything kind of
work and fit with you.
But in general these are justsome bad ones that are usually
(22:14):
done poorly, usually don't fitwith something and are just kind
of.
They usually have the oppositeeffect on on users than what
people, uh, tend to think thatthey're trying to do.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So if you've got a good reason, and it fits great.
If you're doing it to begimmicky, please don't um if you
, if you show it to somebodywho's not you and it, and
they're confused or disrupted ordon't know how to use it Like
worst thing is, if you, anaverage person who's never seen
your website, can't use it Likethey're just like.
(22:48):
I don't like this, I don't knowwhat to do.
And all of these.
I think what's interesting isthey're all a bit disruptive.
Well, they're all disruptive insome way, but they also all
impact the user experience andthen they end up impacting the
effectiveness of your site.
Right, who wants to tank theirsite?
I?
mean it's like having you know,soapy floors when you go into
(23:09):
retail.
Like I'm gonna turn around andleave, like don't wash your
floors while people are there.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So all right, all right, well, cool, thank you for
your time.
Uh, jesse, is a pleasure havingyou.
Uh, thanks everyone forlistening.
As always, you can find ouragency at antidote, underscore
71.
And if you have a question,you'd like to send our way head
to ctapodcastlive to shoot us anemail or, as always, even
better leave us a voice messageon our hotline at 402-718-9971.
(23:39):
Your question might make itinto a future episode, and
usually Rich says the nextepisode, but I'm realizing that
we kind of glossed over that.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
So the next episode is going to be the.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Jefferson beer supply episode featuring Nikki Werner.
She's awesome.
I'm really excited for you guysto hear this episode.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So yeah, Jefferson beer supply that I was getting
confused with Jackson streetbrewing, which are very they're
very different things, verydifferent locations.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
They do both make beer though.
Well, and apparently Nikki isreally good friends with the
people at Jackson Street Brewing, so I guess it wasn't too big
of a.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
A little bit of a kismet, that episode.
We recorded it actually alittle while ago and I will tell
you that's one of my favorites.
She was great.
I absolutely loved it.
So check in on that next weekand, yeah, we'll see you then.
Hey Zach, how are?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
you today.
Hey, we're back.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Once again for anybody who missed the last
episode, I think that's when wetalked about it.
Well, actually a coupleepisodes ago, I don't know.
Caitlin is taking a littlepause.
She's doing a special projectfor us, and the first of those
just came out on Thursday, may8th.
It was me.
So we're doing employeespotlights, and so Caitlin is
spearheading those, and I wasthe first guinea pig for that,
(00:33):
and that is out there as of May8th.
You can find that on all oursocials and everywhere.
But today we're back to adifferent format.
So Zach's my co-host and we aregoing to talk about web design
trends that need to die withwith jesse, yep.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So jesse, our chief creative officer will be here.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Um, as you may know, if you've listened to the
podcast for a while, um, andgone through things jesse hates,
things jesse loves uh, thoseare two episodes from the past.
Uh, he has opinions, especiallywhen it comes to design and web
design, and he is uh veryqualified to give those opinions
too.
Um, I don't think his advicehas ever steered me wrong in
design, so and some of these arepretty bad.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Uh, he shared with me beforehand.
It's a lot of fun going throughthem something that he also
shared with me was today's drink, which isn't a cocktail.
So, yeah, so it wasn't acocktail.
If we were going to do acocktail, it was going to be
something super simple, like awhiskey, neat, and we also
debated.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
doing that's for his spotlight.
His whiskey neat is for hisspotlight.
That's easy there you go.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
That's a great one, but we also talked about maybe
just being funny with it anddoing a Coors Light.
We found this happy mediumwhere we chose a local craft
beer.
This one's from Jackson StreetBrewing.
It's called forgive me if I saythis wrong Tate Mata.
It is, in their words, theofficial Mexican-style beer of
El Camal.
I did not know what El Camalwas.
(02:01):
I talked to Riley.
It is apparently the Mexicanrestaurant kitchen within the
brewery, so you can order foodfrom there.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I thought it was really good.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, I had no idea it existed, but pretty awesome.
It was designed by theirin-house kitchen staff and it
pairs really well with tacos andburritos, so it's just a solid
Mexican lager Sounds great to me.
I really want to try it nexttime I'm in Sioux City.
It's nice to have simple drinkslike this and support local
businesses.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Isn't it like 20 minutes north of Sioux City to
Jefferson, South Dakota?
If you're going to have this?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This is Jackson Street, not Jefferson.
Oh, this is Jackson Street,never mind, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Too many breweries.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Remember when True City had no breweries.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
There were none up there and now it's like swing a
cat and hit a brewery.
Don't swing a cat.
That's not very nice.
So yeah, the Tate Mata.
So funny.
There's a brunch place in DCcalled Tate, with two E's
T-A-T-T-E like latte, and it'slike a coffee shop tea shop.
(03:06):
They've got sandwiches brunch.
It's really good and for DCit's not terribly priced.
I actually love their tunasandwich.
It's one of my favorite things.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I really want to try the food at Jackson Street.
I didn't realize they had that.
Riley was really hyping it up.
I was kind of getting excitedabout it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So when we were there for our holiday party like a
month ago.
I noticed when you go back tothe bathrooms there is a kitchen
and it's got a little sign thatsays I must say El Comal, I'm
sure.
But yeah, like, why didn't wehave like giant plates of tacos?
Probably because we just atedinner and it was like 11 pm,
right.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It must have been All right.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So I think this is an interesting one.
It's a very simple one.
We don't have a recipe.
You just go there, get a TateMata, They'll put it in a glass
for you and you drink it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yep, so perfect beer for spring or summer.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I think you should get some tacos while you get it.
But yeah, let's get into it.
Let's just cut this short andget into it with Jesse, all
right, and we are back and Zachis sticking around.
He'll jump in at some pointbecause I know he's got opinions
(04:17):
about websites.
Who doesn't have opinions aboutwebsites?
We all use them, right?
So, jesse, hey, welcome.
Hey, thanks for having me back.
So I assume you went to jacksonstreet and had a tate mata at
one point I, I did, I did.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I've been really into like the mexican lagers the
last few like months.
I guess that's that's hittingthe spot that's interesting like
it's.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
it's fun to me that, like a sioux city brewery is
doing a mexican style lager, um,right, there they're generally
darker and a little bit heavier.
Am I getting that right or no?
I'm not a beer drinker, so youcan just tell me I'm completely
wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I think it's like a Corona sometimes.
That's kind of what I think ofwith a Mexican lager.
And then there's like ModeloNegra, which is more of a darker
one.
So maybe that's what you'rethinking of, that's probably
what.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I'm thinking of.
Yeah, I don't know, lager justalways makes me think dark and
thick, but I guess that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
That's the wrong.
It's light, it's more like alight beer, like most light
beers are lagers.
Oh okay, that's probably abetter way of thinking of it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Okay, well, my beer education is stepping up a notch
here, but let's do a little bitof education on web design
trends that need to die.
Yes, jesse, I know you came upwith three great ones, so let's
just get into it.
What is your first one and why?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
does it suck.
I don't know how familiar thisterm is going to be for
everybody, but it's calledbrutalist web design and if you
are immediately thinking of likebrutalist, like architecture,
it's the same thing based offthe same principles.
It's very, almost kind of likeshock value and very rigid, and
(06:02):
when you apply that to webdesign, I don't know something
about it.
Well, probably the rigidityjust rubs me the wrong way and I
don't think it fits with a lotof what people do.
I think there's a place for it,just like everything, but for
the most part, whenever I see it, I just kind of cringe.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, I always think like whenever somebody says
brutalist, I think about likethe concrete apartment buildings
in some Soviet movie from theeighties, like they're just
sharp corners and cold colorsand just brutal Right, like
that's where the word comes from.
Um yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
So, like throw that onto your screen and scroll
through it for a while and itwas just kind of jarring.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've seen a few of those where, like, the theme is
all black and white, like it'sjust a black background and
there's like white lines andline drawings and it's sharp
edges it.
It does feel a little painfuland I I can't think from a
marketing standpoint wherethat's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But I mean I'm sure there are certain websites that
like sure that will work I thinkI I see it a lot with like art
stuff, uh, whether that's like aphotography, um, like portfolio
.
Fashion sometimes a little bitgets into that, um, if you're
(07:20):
trying to be kind of like edgy,um, I think it's kind of
pretentious.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Maybe that's a little bit of a harsh term, but that's
just always what I think ofwhen I see it yeah, I think, um,
I think, if it fits your brandright, like if you're uh really
like, like there's some fashionthat is I don't think I call it
brutalist fashion, but it's allthose like sharp lines and darks
and blacks and it's supposed togive you this feeling of dread
Okay, that makes sense.
(07:44):
Or if you're an artist who'sworking in that style, that
makes sense.
But it goes back to what wetalked about with jumping on
trends.
This is a trend, right,brutalist became a trend, very
trendy.
Only do it if it fits your corebrand.
You have to do.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
You belong in that space and, uh, most people don't
like know your, um, your candybar doesn't need a brutalist
website yeah, and I think, likeusually, when you're trying to
sell something at least maybeeven if it's just a service like
that's not really the vibe thatyou want to come off with most
of the time, like, like, we'vebeen talking, there's, there's
(08:24):
definitely a place for it, butum, generally you want to put
people kind of at ease and, uh,give them, you know, really easy
ways to navigate around, and I,this just doesn't do it for me,
so yeah, it gets in the way ofusability like really fast um
it's just harsh on the eyes sothat's exactly what you want.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I want to go to a website that no one wants to
stay on like not the goal fromlike a functionality standpoint.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Does it cause any issues too?
Because it's always like itseems like there's a lot going
on with it, so it's maybe justlike a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Like in terms of that too, would you say I would say
maybe not functionality, becausethey're all pretty simple as
far as the, the back end uh goesfor most of them, um, but I
feel like functionality.
It usually kind of confusespeople about where they're
actually supposed to interactwith things, because it's all
(09:24):
kind of vague.
Um, there's a lot of like bigtext and everything is kind of
spread out and, uh, sometimesthere's stuff all over that you
can click on and there's no, Ithink.
Okay, here's we're kind ofdrilling down to it.
It's.
It's really the hierarchy.
That's kind of messed up for me, um, because you lose that like
, read this headline, look atthis button, click this button,
(09:48):
and I think it's on purpose thatthey're messing with that.
But I think that's the partthat kind of comes in and reeks
havoc on a, on a lot of so it'ssacrificing kind of the best
practices just to match like anaesthetic.
Yeah, For shock value basically.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
I mean to think about it as humans just going through
life, like we rely on colorsand shapes and cues and
differences to drive or navigateor walk somewhere, or just look
at something you know and readsomething that's a good one,
like I.
I've seen a few of those.
I think I'm seeing it less.
Thank goodness You're going toJesse's like yeah, let me send
(10:29):
you a list.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
There there is.
Maybe we can put that in thenotes somewhere.
There's like a big archive ofthem that you can just kind of
scroll through, and if you'reunfamiliar with what they are,
it gives you a really clear ideajust by scrolling through.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Nice, and then you can avoid it in the future,
please.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, and then send us it or something so we can rag
on it in the office.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Absolutely Okay.
So number two I completely getand agree with you on, but I
have some thoughts on it.
But go ahead and tell everybodywhat is your number two.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
But I have some thoughts on it, but go ahead and
tell everybody what is yournumber two?
I kind of figured and I'minterested to hear your thoughts
on number two, but it's pop-ups.
They will never not be on alist of things for websites that
need to die.
For me, I think, just like theBrutalist, and especially for
like on the opposite end, forpeople that are trying to sell
(11:22):
things, I get the the necessaryevil of them, um, and I think
there's a good and bad way to dothem, and that's probably where
where we agree rich, um, Ithink, when they're when they're
really bad.
And where I get frustrated withthem is, uh, they're poorly
timed, they take over way toomuch of your screen and they're
(11:43):
really frustrating to try tolike get out of.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
The thing that I hate is the new thing where and I've
seen this on so many there'sone website that does it, and I
can't remember what it is, butit's something that I go to a
lot the pop-up comes up and youcannot find the X, because it's
like a dark gray X on a blackbackground or a light gray x on
a white background, and it'sjust, or they move it, like they
put it on the left instead ofthe right um, they have fake
(12:10):
ones too, don't they?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
where it's like, actually like, if you click on
it it's like actually the ad,that's like the worst yeah, the
spammy ones like that arespecifically terrible.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I do hate them on , like, especially on news sites
, where you're like scrollingand you'll get a pop-up and then
there's a pop-up behind thepop-up and then another pop-up
and it's like I'm out.
Like you, first of all, youseem like a spam website that's
just trying to drop cookies andwhatever, which is what they're
doing.
But yeah, I agree with you thatmost people misuse pop-ups.
So I agree with you that mostpeople misuse pop-ups.
(12:55):
I do, and I appreciate youacknowledging that from a lead
capture standpoint, it can behelpful.
But here's the deal with thatyou don't have to do a pop-up.
You can do a slide down, Ithink, slide in in the lower
right corner and you see them.
You catch them out of thecorner of your eye.
It's not like you miss it.
And if you want to engage, youengage, but you're not forced to
close it, which is the otherthing.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
They can close on their own, like, yeah, if I
don't do anything, yeah, and Ithink like when they are right
in the middle of where somebodyis reading, like that's my
biggest thing too is like if I'mlooking at a product or reading
an article and they pop upright in the center and like
disrupt what I'm currently doing.
(13:32):
That's when I get frustratedand I will almost bounce just
out of principle.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I mean, and I think that it's like it depends
on the site, right, like sowe're used to them on retail
websites.
You got to give me a deal andif your deal is 10, please don't
bother.
I'm not signing up for anythingfor 10, I need 20 or more.
Like it's just not happening umbut yeah sorry, I could really
affect your bounce rates tooyeah, definitely yeah, because
(14:00):
the easier thing to do than fillout or click that pop-up is to
hit like Command-W on mykeyboard and just close that
window.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So I get from, especially from like a sales
standpoint, like and even as aconsumer, like if there is a 25%
off, like sure I willacknowledge that percent off,
like sure I will acknowledgethat.
But if it's for somethingthat's not relevant to what I'm
doing currently and maybe timethat well enough, like if I'm on
a specific product page, notwhen I'm on the home page, just
(14:33):
seeing if I'm interested in theproduct at all, like maybe time
it a little bit better.
There's so many differenttriggers and things that you can
do for those.
You know whether it's a certainpercentage down the page.
Time you know whether theyclick something.
There's so many differentthings that you can kind of
tailor it to make it not asintrusive.
And when people ignore allthose and just throw it up right
(14:55):
in your face immediately whenyou land on the page, that's
that's terrible it's just likeah, it's like walking into a
restaurant and they're likehere's the menu Exactly, read it
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
It's like no, I don't want to.
The thing that gets me is oneof the things and you're right
like time, time on page scrollwhich location it's at.
There's also how often theycome back, so like I don't have
to see it every time I come toyour site.
I don't have to see it everytime I come to your site.
I think ours comes back likeevery 15 days if you haven't
filled it out.
But also like, because we useHubSpot, if you're a known user,
(15:26):
we're not going to ask you tosubscribe, like you just don't.
So if we've dropped a cookiealready, there's no point in it.
The one that gets me, though, isthere's the exit intent pop-up
when you move your cursor up tothe menu bar.
Here's what gets me about itlike I don't really care,
because I'm probably going tojust close the window anyway if
I'm truly leaving, if your menuis in the upper right corner of
(15:47):
your website so many times.
I'm just going up to the menuto like pull something down, and
it gives me the exit pop-up andI'm like well, now I'm gonna
exit, like screw you, I'm outlike yeah, are you sure you want
to leave?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
like yes, don't ever ask me that again, maybe I
wasn't sure, but now I'mdefinitely sure it is a little
bit of the midwest.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Goodbye, right, like so I think we need to leave.
I was trying to slap my mythighs there, but I couldn't
like that.
Uh that, are you sure you wantto go here?
Take some, take some leftovers,you know, drive safe now, like,
yeah, no, don't need that in apop-up.
So the next one.
(16:30):
So, as you're talking aboutpop-ups and talking about them
like interrupting you, I wasgoing to jump in with something
that I was like reading thenotes and I'm like oh, no, like
what I'm thinking about is thisone, and this one is evil.
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
So number three is something called scroll
hijacking.
So if you're unfamiliar withthat, it's where a website, for
whatever function they're tryingto get across to you, it
manipulates the scroll to bewhatever they want it to be,
which, if you're used toscrolling on literally
everything else, it's jarringand it's uh, not intuitive
(17:06):
because they everybody kind ofdoes it a little bit different.
Um, so it's, it's terrible forusability, um, and most of the
time I just try to get throughit.
Sometimes it's maybe it's justa section on the page, but
either way, uh, it kind ofmesses with a user.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I've had some where and it used to be Safari was the
worst at it Like some websites,I would be scrolling and then
it would just jump like a wholepage and I'm like, so that's, I
think, the thing is.
If you fight it, you just misseverything because they're
trying to do it and you'retrying to do it and it just like
falls apart.
I also hate it when you'rescrolling and they and I don't
(17:51):
know if this is scroll hijackingor not, maybe it is but when
you're scrolling and suddenlysomething that has nothing to do
with the article you're readingis there and you can't get past
it, like you have to interactwith it.
It's sort of a pop-up, but it'sreally a scroll thing.
And then, if you like, scrollhard I'm doing it on my phone
(18:12):
apparently um, it'll jar itloose and it'll move up, but
it's actually part of the page,but it just like and I guess
that is scroll hijacking becausethey freeze the scroll and
force you to do something andI'm like I just want to get to
the article underneath this,like stop.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, it's.
It's really bad because thereare certain things that just are
intuitive now for for everybodyClicking is one of them,
scrolling is another.
Things that are just consistentno matter what browser or
screen or device that you're on,and when you mess with that,
you really mess with people,because it's almost like like
(18:52):
you forget how to walk and oryou know you're walking in a
really uneven surface and you'rejust like what's going on and
it's?
It's really um, kind ofunbalanced and just it.
It takes people out of the, theexperience which, if you're
trying to get somebody to lookat something or be interested in
a product, it can be reallydistracting yeah, and I mean
(19:14):
it's like it.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's sort of like if you watch a small child get on a
moving walkway at an airportfor the very first time and when
the walking is done for them,they have no idea what to do.
Or an escalator like Like thesteps are moving right, you just
have to jump on one and it'slike it's disorienting, it's a
mildly terrifying, and you justyou have to completely change
(19:35):
how you function to to adapt toit.
And that's not the point of webdesign.
Like I should be able to enjoy,immerse, observe, use and not
have to change who I am or howthings work.
Like don't alter my reality.
Like Jesus.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
And we've been pretty good at giving the like or
situation, so Zach will befamiliar.
We just had an example in ourcreative meeting that was one
that used this really wellBecause in the background was a
really well-timed animation thatwas scroll triggered, so not
(20:16):
necessarily taking over yourscroll, but it moved and
manipulated this gear type thing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Really complex, so I got another.
If I get a reward for scrolling.
I get this cool thing happening, but I'm still scrolling.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And then you can see it right now.
That'd be kind of cool okay,yeah, that'd be good, yeah, so
screen recording.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Edit on the youtube version oh, some magic, so like
things like that are done reallywell and some people use it
with products.
Um, when you're diving in alittle bit more and in deeper,
maybe it's something complicatedthat you have to like kind of
scroll through to see, um, but Ifeel like they always handle
that a little bit differently.
(21:01):
You're still scrollingnaturally, it doesn't like take
it over.
And where a big long scrollonly moves you a little bit,
like it feels more natural,you're still scrolling naturally
, it doesn't like take it over.
And where a big long scrollonly moves you a little bit,
like it feels more natural,you're still scrolling down the
page.
It's just moving something ormanipulating something as you're
doing it.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So same kind of principle, but like a better way
to do it, I guess yep,absolutely, and I was just like
thinking now I've got in my mindall these retail things that
happen that they should stopdoing.
I'm just going to put a pin init, though I'm not going to talk
about that here.
That's a whole other episode.
That is like retail shoppingwebsite horrors.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Zach you can write that down.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
We can do that at some point.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I feel like you can do a whole series on that.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I know there's just so much.
People do bad.
Any final thoughts?
Anything else you've got uh onyour mind.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Not really, I think just to.
To recap I think, um, we liketo joke about things that you
know trends that need to die andall that but, um, if it fits
for what your business is andwhat your brand is, there's
always a place for anything Likeyou can make anything kind of
work and fit with you.
But in general these are justsome bad ones that are usually
(22:14):
done poorly, usually don't fitwith something and are just kind
of.
They usually have the oppositeeffect on on users than what
people, uh, tend to think thatthey're trying to do.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
So if you've got a good reason, and it fits great.
If you're doing it to begimmicky, please don't um if you
, if you show it to somebodywho's not you and it, and
they're confused or disrupted ordon't know how to use it Like
worst thing is, if you, anaverage person who's never seen
your website, can't use it Likethey're just like.
(22:48):
I don't like this, I don't knowwhat to do.
And all of these.
I think what's interesting isthey're all a bit disruptive.
Well, they're all disruptive insome way, but they also all
impact the user experience andthen they end up impacting the
effectiveness of your site.
Right, who wants to tank theirsite?
I?
mean it's like having you know,soapy floors when you go into
(23:09):
retail.
Like I'm gonna turn around andleave, like don't wash your
floors while people are there.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So all right, all right, well, cool, thank you for
your time.
Uh, jesse, is a pleasure havingyou.
Uh, thanks everyone forlistening.
As always, you can find ouragency at antidote, underscore
71.
And if you have a question,you'd like to send our way head
to ctapodcastlive to shoot us anemail or, as always, even
better leave us a voice messageon our hotline at 402-718-9971.
(23:39):
Your question might make itinto a future episode, and
usually Rich says the nextepisode, but I'm realizing that
we kind of glossed over that.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
So the next episode is going to be the.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Jefferson beer supply episode featuring Nikki Werner.
She's awesome.
I'm really excited for you guysto hear this episode.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So yeah, Jefferson beer supply that I was getting
confused with Jackson streetbrewing, which are very they're
very different things, verydifferent locations.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
They do both make beer though.
Well, and apparently Nikki isreally good friends with the
people at Jackson Street Brewing, so I guess it wasn't too big
of a.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
A little bit of a kismet, that episode.
We recorded it actually alittle while ago and I will tell
you that's one of my favorites.
She was great.
I absolutely loved it.
So check in on that next weekand, yeah, we'll see you then.
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