February 25, 2025 • 42 mins
David Hill, the innovative mind behind "Ode to RailsConf" and a senior engineer at Simplify, invites us to explore his fascinating journey into the world of podcasting. Inspired by the final announcement of RailsConf, David crafted a platform to celebrate the cherished memories of the event while also providing himself with a bridge to manage social interactions more comfortably. With his love for board games providing a structured approach, David shares how the podcasting framework has transformed him from a hesitant introvert to a comfortable conversationalist.
Our conversation takes an intriguing turn as we delve into the art of podcast guest planning and the intricate process of editing conference videos. From featuring guests from the Scholar Guide program at RailsConf and RubyConf to orchestrating a unique episode with nine guests from a single company, we leave no stone unturned. Engaging discussions with prominent figures like Freedom Dumlao and Sarah May offer listeners a treasure trove of insights, while upcoming episodes with Ruby Central's Rhiannon and Ali Vogel promise to further explore the dynamic world of PR, marketing, and operations.
As we navigate the evolution of podcasting strategies, the conversation shifts to the often-overlooked balance between coding and communication. The journey from a simple chat between friends to a thriving podcasting community has not been without its challenges and surprises. We reflect on the impact of Jason Charnes' departure due to family commitments and celebrate the resilience and growth that comes with embracing new roles. Amidst it all, the spirit of supporting creators, learning new skills, and fostering personal growth shines through, with an optimistic outlook for the show's future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
Code and the Coding Coders whoCode it.
I'm your host, drew Bragg, andI'm joined today by my friend
David Hill.
David, for anyone who isunfamiliar with you and your
show, would you please introduceyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sure, my name is David Hill, I'm a senior
engineer at an advertisingplatform company called Simplify
and I also have my own thingnow, which is a bit of a new
experience for me.
I don't have a long history ofhaving my own thing on the
internet, which is a little bitweird, I think, for a web
developer.
But I have a podcast of my owncalled Ode to RailsConf.
(00:35):
It kind of grew out of theannouncement last year that
RailsConf coming up in Julywould be the final RailsConf and
I wanted to do something tokind of celebrate and
commemorate a lot of fun,positive experiences and stories
that I had had and I figured ifI had had them then other
people did too.
So let's try and get otherpeople to come on this podcast I
(00:56):
had imagined and talk about andshare those experiences and it
is an awesome show.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I love the idea behind it.
Just hey, it's a podcast whereall we do is talk about awesome
experiences we've had at thisthing.
That's going away.
It drives home this point ofanyone can podcast and it can be
about anything.
You don't have to have a longrunning show either, because
after July RailsConf will beover and maybe Odor RailsConf
(01:23):
could go on for a little bitlonger because you could talk
about what just happened, but atsome point you're like all
right, well, it's gone.
Do you plan on continuingpodcasting afterwards?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So I'm going to back up a little bit.
Part of the original idea forthis podcast was that it would
have a very limited run In myhead.
The way I imagined it.
It would end with a recordingat RailsConf Okay, cool, so that
would be the final episode andpart of that.
For me, this kind of mightbleed into one of your
traditional questions about theblockers and how they were
(01:57):
resolved.
This is my first podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
This was my first podcast.
I mean, this is my 40thsomething episode.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually 50th, but yeah, it's my first podcast.
I mean this is my 40thsomething episode actually 50th,
but yeah, it's my first podcasttoo the weeds of it.
So having a hard end date on itinitially was really really
helpful for me.
I can do this for a littlewhile and if I'm bad at it and
if I'm not getting better and ifI hate it, that's fine.
There's an end date.
(02:35):
At some point I can just belike, okay, I did the thing and
I can call it good.
That helped me get over aninitial blocker I had of do I
really want to do this, is thisgoing to work out, type of
concerns.
But yes, I have really reallyenjoyed the process of doing
this podcast.
It's given me a lot ofopportunities to have a reason
(02:57):
to go and talk to a person thatI have always been hesitant to
approach for casual conversation.
And I think you know this aboutme I'm an introvert.
I have a certain amount ofsocial anxiety which, the more
I've talked to people, the moreI've realized that is not a
unique or special thing aboutdevelopers.
A lot of us wrestle with thesesame issues.
(03:19):
It's one of those things whereit's like I always felt so kind
of hemmed in by my own inabilityto just get out of my own way
to go talk to people.
But one of the things that youand I kind of connected over
when we first met was boardgames.
Board games are so special tome, partially for that reason.
(03:41):
It provides a reallyinteresting structure of how you
interact with other people fora limited amount of time.
And I found at RailsConf, atone of the board game nights I
kind of realized I've beenreally really quiet and reserved
all day and then I get to aboard game night.
It's not just board games arefun, it's.
(04:05):
All of a sudden my weird brainis oh, I know how to interact
with people now because thereare rules in this little piece
of paper that tell me how Iinteract with people for the
next 30 minutes.
And so, circling back to thepodcast, suddenly I had a
structure that I could tell mybrain.
I'm going to go talk to thisperson about RailsConf and we're
going to ask them questionsabout their experiences, how
they were involved withRailsConf, if they were involved
(04:28):
in planning it or giving a talkor through the scholars and
guides program.
I had brainstormed out thisagenda of questions that I could
ask, and it just started tokind of slowly rewire my brain a
little bit to be like oh, maybetalking to people isn't as
scary as I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's still kind of scary, there's still a degree of
scaredness, but I feel like thestructure provides you with an
escape hatch.
Yeah, it's still scary, but youcan just be like, all right.
Well, that's all the questionsI have, so I'm out now.
Similar to the way that boardgames are like, there's an end
goal to board games, so this islimited interaction.
It provides that escape hatch,at least for me, because I'm
(05:07):
sort of like you.
I'm on the introverted side.
I enjoy interacting with people, but it makes me super nervous.
I have a limited social batteryand if I don't feel like
there's an escape hatch to aconversation, I'm immediately
awkward.
But if I'm like this is alimited conversation, I'm good
to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
But for me, rubyconf back in November was my first
RubyConf.
I've been to multiple RailsConfbut this most recent one was my
first RubyConf and most of thetime, through these conferences
I'll have maybe one good daywhere I feel high energy, I feel
like I can get out there andsocialize and talk to people and
(05:48):
I usually have to kind of workmyself up into that state, which
is not always successful,because I can't do it on the
other days.
This past RubyConf I went thewhole week and I didn't feel
like I came down from being like, yeah, let's go talk to people
and see interesting things andthe talks and everything.
And honestly I attribute a lotof that to just doing the
(06:09):
podcast kind of getting the repsin of okay, I'm talking to.
I think nowadays I'm generallyrecording two episodes a week,
twice a week having a 30-minuteconversation with someone, most
of the time that I haven't metbefore.
Okay, we'll start with generalquestions about RailsConf and as
they're talking oh wait, youjust said something interesting,
(06:32):
let's circle back to that anddive into that a little bit
deeper.
Just getting those practicesessions in a really low-risk
environment what's the worstthat can happen when you're
recording a podcast?
You stumble over your words alittle bit and then, thankfully,
we're using an editor, the sameeditor that you use.
We stumble around for a coupleof minutes and it's like, hey,
mr editor paul, please just kindof clean this up for us.
(06:55):
There's no downside, there's norisk to flubbing around for a
little bit.
It's really helped my mentalstate.
It's really kind of fun to gotalk to people who also happen
to like Ruby.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, shout out to Paul for making us sound so much
better at conversations than weactually are.
Thank you, paul.
There's that saying.
You are what you consistentlydo.
You're consistently havingthese conversations with people
you don't know intimately well.
It becomes a little bit easier,so it all makes sense.
I think you're doing a greatjob.
(07:28):
I really enjoy the show.
I enjoyed being on the show.
I enjoy listening to the showand if you are not listening to
the show, do yourself a favorand go take a listen and then
come to the very last RailsConfin July in Philly.
It's going to be awesome.
But back to the actual show,the template that I have.
If you're new to the show, thisis not how my show normally
(07:49):
goes.
Normally, what happens is I'mgoing to ask David three
questions.
I'm going to ask him what he'sworking on Could be podcast
related, maybe what kind ofblockers he has.
If he doesn't have a currentblocker, he can talk about a
recent blocker he had, how hewent about solving it, and then
we'll wrap up the show withsomething cool, new or
interesting that David'srecently learned or discovered
(08:09):
or even built and made.
It doesn't have to be codingrelated, but it absolutely can
be so, david, what are youworking on?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
A lot of my personal time right now is spent on the
podcast, the stuff I'm doing formy job.
I hope no one listens to this.
It's not super interesting orengaging.
Right now I'm still relativelynew to the company, and so it's
this big sprawling monolith withmultiple different teams with
different focuses working on it.
Okay, I guess I'm building thistiny little feature over here,
(08:39):
but, yeah, the podcast is thebig piece of what I'm working on
right now.
There's also since we'retalking about RailsConf a little
bit earlier the CFP opened up,I think last week, and so I
submitted something for thatthat I hope gets accepted, but
it's more of a panel discussiontype proposal, so I'm hoping
that gets accepted, since Ithink that would be cool, but
(09:06):
I'm also still trying to workout something to propose.
That's a more technical talk.
One of my longstanding issuesis trying to come up with
something that I think isinteresting that isn't also
immediately squashed by my brainof you're just late to the
party.
Everyone else already knowsthis.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I do not think that there are topics that actually
exist like that.
I know your brain is tellingyou that my brain is telling me
they are.
I know it's not real.
Really, every topic, even ifsomeone's already talked about
it, even if someone's alreadybeat it to death, your approach
to the delivery will bedifferent than theirs, which
might resonate with someonedifferently.
(09:40):
So someone's going to get valueout of it.
A lot of things, shit changes,right.
Shit changes in Ruby, itchanges in Rails.
You could talk about like, hey,our approach to doing anything
on the front end is drasticallydifferent now that we're on
Rails 8 than maybe the last timesomeone talked about it in
Rails 4 or even Rails 5, whenthe last major change to how
(10:01):
front end happens on Rails, thatkind of stuff, those are valid.
Like, yeah, someone's alreadytalked about front-end with
Rails before, not with Rails 8,not with their approach to how
they build view components orhow your company's handling
whatever.
I hear you I deal with the samethings where I'm like oh, I
could talk about this.
People smarter than me havedefinitely already talked about
(10:23):
that before, but it's stillvalid.
It's still.
I have a very different approachto how I handle myself up on
stage than someone else might.
A very deadpool-esque style ofhumor.
So I've been told bestcompliment I've ever received
after giving my game show everwas being told that I have a
very Deadpool-like sense ofhumor, thank you, but if you're
(10:48):
actually struggling with someCFP-esque topics, there are CFP
coaching opportunities throughRuby Central coming up.
This is for you, david, sinceI'm talking to you right now.
But anyone listening who's alsolike I should submit something
I don't know what, or I need abetter refinement.
Monday February 17th, tuesdayFebruary 18th and Wednesday
(11:09):
February 19th they're all atdifferent times, sorry.
The 17th is at 9 am, 18th atnoon and the 19th at 4 pm
Eastern time.
All of those you can registerthrough Ruby Central's posted
link.
A few places they have someawesome people doing great
coaching sessions can help youget unblocked, refine your CFPs
(11:31):
ideas, consolidate ideas into amore cohesive talk.
So anyone listening, includingyou, david, who's like I want to
submit more CFPs or refine thisidea.
I highly recommend taking theopportunity to get some
mentorship on the CFP frompeople who have been there and
done that a lot, so that can behelpful.
(11:53):
I know Kevin Murphy has helpedme with my CFP more than a few
times early when I was juststarting to do the game show and
it gave me a lot moreconfidence to hit the submit
button, knowing that someone asexperienced as him was like yeah
, no, this sounds good, or hereare the tweaks to make, or what
have you so highly recommended?
I?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
did see the announcement for those coaching
opportunities in the RubyCentral Slack, which is also
another resource that if you'relistening to this podcast you
should definitely join the RubyCentral Slack just to be a
little bit more connected tothose types of announcements and
everything.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Totally.
It's the place to find all yourfavorite Ruby developers too.
A ton of people in there.
So Ruby Central Community Slack.
If you're not in, feel free toreach out and I will make sure
that you get in.
Cool, so you have one CFP in.
You have some hopes, desires todo another CFP.
You're podcasting like crazy.
(12:52):
Is there anyone that you hopeto have on the podcast that you
haven't yet and don'tnecessarily have scheduled?
Or maybe someone you do havescheduled that you're really
excited about and you want totease it a little bit?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
As of this recording, the latest guest was Cindy
Backman of Cop Breaks.
She's awesome.
It was really fun talking withher because she's got such a
different perspective than anyof us would have about these
types of events because of whatshe's there for.
So that was really fun talkingto her about the preparation and
the perspective that goes intoactually recording and getting
(13:21):
all this stuff set up to be ableto record that presentation.
Well, I don't remember if thiswas someone else I was talking
to or if this came from her, butit might have been from you.
Even Just the videos for RailsWorld weren't super well edited
together, because there's theperson on stage talking and you
want to be able to see them talk, but there's also their slides,
(13:42):
which are also usually prettyinformative to what they're
talking about.
So you need to see able to seethem talk, but there's also
their slides, which are alsousually pretty informative to
what they're talking about, andso you need to see that too.
And a lot of the Rails worldfilming didn't capture the
slides well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, I don't think that was me that brought it up,
but I definitely agree with thatstatement of the Rails world.
Videos were good-ish, butdefinitely I think there was
some context quality missingthere.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So maybe it came from the conversation with her.
That was a really interestingkind of realization for me, like
, oh, there's a whole lot morethat goes into trying to record
these videos than just pointinga camera at the stage.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
So the next three guests areall people who went through the
Scholar Guide program either atRailsConf or at RubyConf.
(14:27):
I had a thought at one pointthat I wanted to have a nice
long list of episodes that werefrom the Scholar Guides,
especially since I'm expectingthat the application window for
the Scholar Guide program forRailsConf will be opening up
soon.
Once that does, I'm going tostart making additional posts
(14:48):
every week.
If you're curious about thisprogram, point to another
episode of.
Here's a scholar who wentthrough the program.
Here's a guide who helped ascholar through the program.
Go listen to what they have tosay about this program if you're
even thinking about applying tothis.
So I've got three scholarscoming up, and then I did a
first for our editor, paul.
(15:08):
I had him edit an episode thathad I think it was nine people
in it.
Whoa, that's a lot of people.
So, yeah, most of my episodesare just a one-on-one interview.
Yeah, so late last year I movedfrom Kansas City to Tampa.
Right before I left Kansas CityI made a connection.
There was a Ruby Central Slackfor consultants that recently
(15:32):
got merged into the main RubyCentral Slack channels.
But I was in that Slack becauseI want to do more consulting
work and kind of break out ontomy own at some point.
It's just a very slow process.
But somebody else in thatchannel was also in the Kansas
City area and so I did anuncharacteristic thing for me
and reached out at one point.
I always love to connectsometimes, since I'm leaving the
(15:54):
area and I'm feeling socialright now.
So I was kind of riding thatwave.
So we met for lunch and we hada good talk and everything.
And I asked towards the end ofthe conversation if he'd be
interested in coming on thepodcast sometime and he was like
actually I have a differentidea, because my whole team, his
whole company, they all went toRailsConf together and for some
(16:14):
of them it was their first time, for some of them it was
multiple times.
So he's like what would youthink of just having all of us
on the podcast.
That sounds kind of cool,because that would be a very
different thing than what Inormally do, and so, yeah, I
think it was nine people thatjust tell me how RailsConf went
for all of you guys.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I have no doubt Paul was able to tackle that Well.
He's always done the paneldiscussions.
Those have always come outreally good when he's got five
or six people and nine is a lot.
I have no doubt that came outawesome.
I'm excited for that one too.
Yeah, so that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And then two more I want to talk about really fast.
I'm going to go out of order alittle bit.
The latest one I've recordedwas with Freedom Dumlao.
Okay, cool, yeah, he was a lotof fun to talk to.
He had some really just funstories.
The whole reason I ended uptalking to him was because Chris
(17:09):
Oliver was hey, dave, youshould talk to Freedom here
because of his whole fun storyabout what happened at RailsConf
last year.
Oh yeah, I remember that thatwhole thing that Arena did on
stage.
Now he's in the spotlight.
I probably didn't expect to be.
So that one was fun.
And then the last one I'm goingto mention Sarah May.
Oh, awesome, because I got towork with her for a couple of
(17:31):
months years ago back at PivotalLabs when it was still Pivotal
Labs.
She was one of my favoritepeople.
She was just so awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I've had limited interactions with her, but every
interaction has been awesomeand no one has ever had anything
negative to say about her evershe's amazing and she's
wonderful and she was one of thefirst people I reached out to
after I started the podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
She's a fairly high-level employee at Backerkit
right now.
She was busy.
Yeah, it took a while to get anopening in her schedule to get
her to come on the show, butwhen she finally did, I was so
happy.
So those are the ones I'verecorded already.
And then I have some upcomingrecordings scheduled with a
(18:14):
couple of people from RubyCentral.
I've got Rhiannon coming on tokind of talk about kind of the
PR marketing side of things abit, and Ali Vogel I've got
coming on as well More theoperations side of things, I
guess.
So those are the ones I havescheduled now, and then there's
always kind's always the Rubycelebrity people that I'd love
(18:36):
to have on the show at somepoint.
At some point I need to bitethe bullet.
Since I took the risk andinvited DHH cold at that one
point and it worked out for me.
At some point I need to do thatagain and reach out to Eileen
at some point.
She'd be fun to talk to over atRailsConf.
I had Aaron Patterson already,so I already checked that box,
(18:58):
so jealous.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Every time I see him I'm like, when are you coming on
my show?
And he's soon, and then itnever happens.
And I think it's more my faultthan his, because I'm always you
should come on the show.
And he's like, okay, I'll sendyou a link.
And I send him a link and thenI forget to follow up.
And if someone sent me a linkand then never followed, up with
me, I would never click thatlink.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's the funny thing, though.
With Aaron, it almost became awhite whale situation for me too
.
The first time we scheduled, hetotally forgot, and so I
emailed him and we rescheduledfor that second scheduled time.
Something happened and Itotally forgot, and it went back
and forth like that for threeor four different times.
Finally we have it scheduled,and it actually happened.
(19:42):
I was just like, oh, thankgoodness, I wanted to have this
conversation with AaronPatterson and I was not going to
let it go.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
He's awesome.
Glad you got him on.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
At this point and this is kind of one of my
blockers that I have kind ofpending in the back of my head
was I have this near constantworry that I'm running out of
guests to have on the show and Ineed it to run for two months
longer than I was reallyexpecting it to go.
Railsconf typically is in Mayand this year it's in July.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Right now I think I have everything running out to
April.
If I have no more guests recordwith me at all beyond what I
currently have scheduled, I'llrun through the beginning of
April.
It's not super pending.
I feel like I've got a littlebit of a buffer.
I need to start inviting peopleagain because I don't have
anything new new appointmentsbeing made right now.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well, I know you've had Chris and Ufuk on, but you
could have them on again nowthat they're announced as
co-chairs for the last one.
I've had Chris on, I haven'thad Ufuk on yet.
Oh, you haven't had Ufuk.
Well, there you go.
You got to get Ufukon.
There's an idea you could alsohave Chris on again, since he's
now co-chairing the lastRailscom.
The programming committee willcome out soon.
(21:01):
You can have them on again andtalk about what they are hoping
for.
The last one, and there'sthings coming soon.
There's a lot happening behindthe scenes that'll become public
soon and you'll have a wholenew host of people to talk to.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Oh yeah, a lot of that just kind of wriggling
around at the back of my mind,of the co-chairs now that
they're announced, and thenother ruby central people as we
get closer to it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I definitely want to try and rope them into a little
bit more we need to do is youneed to have someone come on
your show and hijack the showand interview you about your
experiences at RailsConf?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Ooh, Kinsey actually half did that during the episode
Her she turned one of myquestions right back on me after
she answered.
It's like that's not how thisis supposed to work.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
You're just supposed to talk about your stuff.
I am not prepared to talk aboutme.
Please stop.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I am a bit of an introvert, but once I'm
comfortable talking with aperson I can very easily go into
.
Let's tell a story mode.
I can go for a while, butthat's not the point of this
show.
I don't want to just be talkingabout my stuff.
I want to be talking about yourstuff.
If you turn it back on me, Ihave to really rein myself in,
or I will just kind of go.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I know that feeling this is going off the rails,
let's reel it back in, all right?
Do you have other blockers thatyou want to talk about?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
This one is not a current blocker but it's a
blocker that I ran into alongthe way that I kind of alluded
to it a little bit earlier, butit's been on my mind recently so
I kind of wanted to bring it upagain.
That whole issue of approachingsomeone that I don't know to
have a conversation with them.
We've talked before about howhaving a very kind of deliberate
(22:47):
structure in mind for myinteraction with that person has
really helped kind of get overthat blocker.
But I'm in my 40s.
How did it take me 40 years ofmy life to figure out how to
just have a conversation with aperson that I don't already know
?
The amount of time and energythat I feel like I wasted over
(23:10):
the years of not feelingcomfortable being able to go and
connect with another personterrifies me a little bit.
It's just kind of like that's alot of wasted time where just
not being able to interact withpeople.
When I was a much younger, muchless experienced developer, I
used to think that my job wasall about the code, which in a
(23:32):
podcast with the word code in itso many times, that might seem
appropriate as I've kind ofgrown up more and started having
the ability to interact withpeople a bit more.
That perspective that I've hadon it has changed a lot, where
it's like, oh no, the job isn'tabout the code.
(23:53):
The code is a tool that I usedto do the job, but the job is
more about other people.
It's about how other people usethe system and the software
that you're building andsupporting, and if you're not
actually understanding andmeeting their needs, then it
doesn't matter what you do withthe code, because it doesn't
give them what they need, whichcircles right back around the
need to be able to communicateeffectively and accurately and
comfortably with other people.
(24:13):
To be able to communicateeffectively and accurately and
comfortably with other people,to be able to really gauge what
it is that they need.
That's been a big kind ofrevelation to me recently.
Just wow, the opportunitiesthat I probably missed out on
because I wasn't comfortabletalking to people and seeing how
much that's changed for me overthis past year through doing
(24:38):
this simple little podcast.
From the beginning I feltpretty confident this was going
to be a pretty niche podcastRuby developers, but even then
only Ruby developers who reallycare about RailsConf, who are
interested in hearing otherpeople's stories.
The audience for that is notgoing to be some mega
blockbuster-sized audience, butit was a project that helped me
(25:01):
do something that I wasinitially very scared of for
lack of a better way to describeit and so it was helping me do
something that was outside of mycomfort zone.
That has really made a lot ofchanges for me personally.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I feel like that's how a lot of awesome projects
come about is someone's justtrying to solve their own
problem for themselves, and thenthey're just hey, other people
might enjoy this thing.
That I did too.
I'm, of course, talkingslightly more about code and
software, but you indirectlywent out and solved your own
(25:37):
problem of I need to get betterat talking to people and I can
talk to people in this morestructured setting and then you
hit the record button and nowother people get to enjoy the
conversations that you've hadtoo, but I think the fact that
you were getting so much benefitout of it, too helps you keep
going with it, which is anotherchallenging part of podcasting
is sometimes it's like, oh crap,I need another guest, or oh, I
(25:59):
need to spend time talking topeople or prepping or putting
this episode together,remembering to respond to my
emails or whatever, and if youdon't have a good enough reason
to enjoy what you're doing, youmight lose the energy to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, I actually had to dial it back a little bit and
structure it a little bit more.
For the recording timesOriginally I just kind of opened
my schedule up five days a weekfrom noon on.
It was just pick a time, I'llrecord whenever you guys want,
and so, like I was recordingthree or four episodes a week,
at certain points I loved it.
(26:37):
I really, really enjoyed it.
But at the same time as likethis might be burning the candle
at both ends, just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Just sounds like that sounds like a lot.
I sort of embarrassing to admitthat I struggle to do my two
times a month recording.
When you're like, oh yeah,three or four times a week, I
would just hammer them out, thatsounds like a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And it was, it was, and so I stopped recording in
late November so I could gothrough the holidays with a
break.
And when I started recordingagain in January, I was like,
all right, tuesdays andThursdays In the afternoon,
those are the only open times.
I've had one guest so far comeback and ask if I had an opening
(27:19):
in another time of the week, ona different day, because
Tuesdays and Thursdays didn'twork for her.
And so for that one person Iwas like, yes, I will open up a
block on another day and I'llsend you a custom link to that
one.
I can be flexible with it, butI need to be more structured
with it so I don't burn myselfout.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, and if Tuesdays and Thursdays in this certain
time slot works for most people,then great, it's a benefit to
you and they just have to pickfrom this small spot and if
someone can't, they'll reach out.
The guys from Remote Ruby dothat.
They record on Fridays, I think, at noon or 11 or whatever it
is, and if they're having aguest on that can't do that time
.
They might adjust here or there, but for the most part that's
(28:01):
when they record and if you wantto come on their show, that's
when they record and I feel likethat probably helps them a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Speaking of Remote Ruby, did you see that Jason is
leaving the show?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, imagine me a guy who works with jason charns
every day, talks to him on slackalmost every day, is on the
same project currently with himand finding out through blue sky
that he's recording his lastepisode of Remote Ruby before I
(28:35):
even get on the show.
I sense some frustration fromyou the number of times I have
declined Andrew Mason's inviteto be on Remote Ruby because I
promised Jason I wouldn't comeon the show unless he was there
when I came on the show.
And now I'm so mad at him.
(28:56):
I love Jason.
He's a fantastic human, butcurrently I'm a little mad at
him.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I saw that the other day and did I miss an
announcement or something?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I saw that moments before jumping on a Zoom
call with him, so that was fun.
I should have given him anearful.
I was like dude, what?
And he's like I just need abreak.
Been doing it for Listen.
I understand he's been doing itfor years and it's gotten way
bigger than it was ever supposedto be.
It was supposed to be justhanging out and chatting.
(29:30):
It was just supposed to be himand Chris chatting about stuff,
yeah.
So it got way bigger than heever intended and it's a lot,
and he's got little kids at homeand listen.
I totally get it.
I just mean the way that Ifound out, dude, and he's also
one of my favorite podcasters.
You never want to hear that oneof your favorite anyone is done
(29:52):
doing what they do.
Oh, that's depressing.
I know that Chris and Andrewwill keep it going and it'll be
still an awesome show, and I canhear Jason rant about whatever
shit is bothering him.
You work with him.
I have a unique access to thatman, so it's not that bad.
Yeah, I feel for the rest ofthe community that's going to
(30:13):
lose out on the Jason Charnesmagic every week.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, I reached out to Chris Oliver when I saw the
news and was like, is this real,what is happening?
And he said pretty much theexact same thing that he's been
doing it for a long time.
He's got three young kids now.
Oh yeah, I remember when mykids were young.
You need to have a certainamount of energy to handle life
at that point.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, especially his kids.
He tells me stories and I'mlike, dude, you have your hands
full.
Like the pranks his kids willplay on him is crazy.
He'll tell us some stories.
Your son is eight and pullingthese kinds of pranks.
You are screwed.
When he becomes a teenager,dude, you are so screwed.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
it's amazing his kids sound awesome sounds like he's
raising him right but, you knowit takes a certain amount of
energy and sure, yeah, this thattotally come from somewhere
else.
If it's not available, yeah,we'll definitely miss hearing.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Jason on remote ruby yeah, definitely so the last
question, because I feel likeI've already taken up too much
of your Friday Eve what issomething cool, new, interesting
that you've recently learned,discovered, built, created
(31:35):
anything.
It doesn't have to be codingrelated.
Obviously, this is code and thecoding coders who code it, so
it can be code related, but itdoesn't have to be.
So hit me, what do you got?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
The only thing I was able to come up with
contemplating this questionearlier was Joe Mazzolotti's new
book, the Hotwire.
I picked that up on PragmaticProgrammer.
I started working my waythrough it.
I actually have a freelance gigthat I'm working through a
little bit to build a mobile appfor a charity foundation thing,
(32:02):
trying to be deliberately vaguebecause I don't know how kosher
it is to shoot that name outthere, since it's a fairly
recognizable name.
But yeah, it's just.
Oh, this hotline negative bookis coming out right on time for
me to have to do a mobile app.
This is going to be so mucheasier yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
No, it's cool and joe knows his shit and I'm excited
to see the book.
I'm excited for joe definitelygonna have him back on the show
to talk about the book soon,hopefully fingers crossed,
scheduling and whatnot but yeah,that's a good one.
Super excited for the book.
I will be picking that one uptoo.
I learned from andrewatkinson's postgres book and
(32:42):
Nohrappin's Pick-Ass book that Iam terrible with beta copies of
books.
I know some people are greatwith it and by all means, if
you're chomping at the bit, grabit ASAP.
But I just learned throughgetting both of their books in
beta that I am really bad atbeta books.
(33:03):
So I will be waiting just alittle bit.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
What do you mean by you're bad at beta books?
I don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I think the best way to consume a beta book is you
read the chapter and then, whenthe new version's released, you
reread the chapter, you rereadthe book, and I think that's
probably a really good way toconsume technical books in
general.
That's sort of how studyingworks, right, you're supposed to
repeatedly consume.
My ADHD does not allow me toreread chapters of a book.
(33:34):
I can't do it.
I don't like it, it's not good.
Listener, you can't see this,but David can.
There's a lot of books and Ihave not actually finished 50%
of those books on my bookshelfand there's even more below it.
That's two shelves and then twoshelves.
I also have a lot of books togo through, so I need to read it
(33:55):
, probably once.
Maybe I'll refer back to asection that I'm like oh, I
remember this.
I need to reconsume thatinformation.
Beta books are an awesome idea,and especially if you're
someone who's good at studyingand repeatedly reading a chapter
to get good at the information.
I just, unfortunately, am not.
So I'm like okay for this bookbecause I want to read it.
(34:16):
I'm going to wait until it'seither done or very close to
done, and then I'll consume.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Fair.
That makes sense.
I think I fall into the samecategory as you in terms of
being bad at beta books, becauseI will read it through at
whatever version I startedreading it and then I'll circle
back to it if I need to review atopic at some future point.
But I don't regularly go backand try to really see what
changed or whatever.
(34:45):
But there's also certain lovesin my life in the world of
literature, with fiction andfandom and stuff like that that
I'm fairly energetic andpassionate about making sure
that people who are creatingthose types of things for my
enjoyment get paid so they cancontinue to make these things
that I love.
For that reason alone, ifnothing else, I really enjoy
(35:08):
finding even these technicalbooks like this Hotwire Native
book that I know is going to paydividends for me in the long
run with some skills andknowledge that will help me do
things in my job better,throwing some money Joe's way so
that he can keep doing andworking on these things that
have led him to making this book.
Even if I don't get around toreading the beta at all and end
(35:29):
up just getting the full booklater on, I don't look at it as
money poorly spent.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
I'm definitely getting the book.
I also have an affinity toprint copies, which probably
sounds weird for a softwaredeveloper to be like.
I like print books and noteBooks.
I love having the physical.
I take notes in my books.
In technical books I highlightstuff.
I did get a Remarkable, whichis really cool.
My wife got it for me forChristmas one year and it
(35:56):
definitely was a game changerfor eBooks because I could take
notes and highlight.
It's great for planes because Idon't need to bring a thick
book.
It's great for conferencesbecause I don't need to have a
notebook and a book.
But if I'm at home and it'stotally up to me, I would rather
pick up the physical book copy.
I stare at a screen eight to 10hours a day already.
I don't want to stare atanother one to read my book.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Not just that, but with the technical books.
Show me a technical book thatdoes not refer you to a table or
a chart or an image on someother page in the book, or refer
back to some previous chapterand you're like wait, what was
that again, it's so much easierwith a physical book to flip
back to that page and curl thepages a little bit so you can
(36:38):
see the chart on one side andthe words you're reading on the
other side.
That's 100 pages later in thebook.
Yeah, I'm right with you therethe physical book.
If I have that option and ifit's at home, absolutely I'm
going with the physical book.
The ebooks and other thingshave their utility and have a
perfectly valid place for use,but, all other things being
(37:01):
equal, I prefer the physicalbook too.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I own a lot of these books as physical and e-book
because I'm like I like thephysical but e-book is very
convenient.
I go to conferences and speakand stuff, so I want to play in
enough.
It's warranted to have both.
But yeah, good, call out.
Yeah, joe Malazotti's book isgoing to be awesome.
Super excited for it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Is there anything else you want to talk about
before we wrap up?
One last plug for RailsConfthis July it's in Philly.
That's why Drew is so excited.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Okay, to be fair, I would be excited for the very
last RailsConf regardless.
But yes, with it being inPhilly, I am doubly excited.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yes, With it being in Philly, I am doubly excited.
I remember you at RailsConflast year.
Philly was not on the shortlist.
They gave us of places toconsider where the final
RailsConf would be.
You manifested this.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
You would be surprised what I can get done
when I have an extreme amount ofenergy.
You give me hyper fixation onsomething.
That's a lot of energy that Iget to pour into something.
So, yeah, I'm also excitedbecause it was me putting a shit
ton of energy into tellinganyone who would listen and a
few people who wouldn't listenthat it should be in Philly.
Yeah, and it apparently worked.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to RailsConf
this year and hoping to see alot of people there, get to meet
some new people and get toactually meet some people that
I've only talked to virtuallynow through the podcast and
actually talk to them in personand celebrate the conclusion of
the RailsConf journey.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, it's going to be awesome.
It's going to be a party.
Early bird tickets will begoing on sale soon-ish.
Soon, tm, soon, hashtag,hashtag, soon.
There's no official date yet,but soon.
You don't want to miss out, sohope to see everyone there.
David, where can folks find youand Ode to RailsConf on the
(38:57):
internet?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
For Ode to RailsConf.
Just odetorailsconfcom is thewebsite for the podcast, but
it's also registered in prettymuch every podcast directory, so
searching for the name shouldfind it.
For my own socials, I thinkBlue Sky is probably the best
one to find me these days, sinceI've largely abandoned Twitter.
(39:19):
My profile on BlueSky isdavidhilldev.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
So, everybody, if you haven't listened to David's
podcast yet, now that you'velistened to him on this one,
definitely go check out Ode toRailsConf.
We will see you all atRailsConf, we hope.
Thanks for listening.
Talk to you in the next episode.
Bye.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
Code and the Coding Coders whoCode it.
I'm your host, drew Bragg, andI'm joined today by my friend
David Hill.
David, for anyone who isunfamiliar with you and your
show, would you please introduceyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Sure, my name is David Hill, I'm a senior
engineer at an advertisingplatform company called Simplify
and I also have my own thingnow, which is a bit of a new
experience for me.
I don't have a long history ofhaving my own thing on the
internet, which is a little bitweird, I think, for a web
developer.
But I have a podcast of my owncalled Ode to RailsConf.
(00:35):
It kind of grew out of theannouncement last year that
RailsConf coming up in Julywould be the final RailsConf and
I wanted to do something tokind of celebrate and
commemorate a lot of fun,positive experiences and stories
that I had had and I figured ifI had had them then other
people did too.
So let's try and get otherpeople to come on this podcast I
(00:56):
had imagined and talk about andshare those experiences and it
is an awesome show.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I love the idea behind it.
Just hey, it's a podcast whereall we do is talk about awesome
experiences we've had at thisthing.
That's going away.
It drives home this point ofanyone can podcast and it can be
about anything.
You don't have to have a longrunning show either, because
after July RailsConf will beover and maybe Odor RailsConf
(01:23):
could go on for a little bitlonger because you could talk
about what just happened, but atsome point you're like all
right, well, it's gone.
Do you plan on continuingpodcasting afterwards?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So I'm going to back up a little bit.
Part of the original idea forthis podcast was that it would
have a very limited run In myhead.
The way I imagined it.
It would end with a recordingat RailsConf Okay, cool, so that
would be the final episode andpart of that.
For me, this kind of mightbleed into one of your
traditional questions about theblockers and how they were
(01:57):
resolved.
This is my first podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
This was my first podcast.
I mean, this is my 40thsomething episode.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Actually 50th, but yeah, it's my first podcast.
I mean this is my 40thsomething episode actually 50th,
but yeah, it's my first podcasttoo the weeds of it.
So having a hard end date on itinitially was really really
helpful for me.
I can do this for a littlewhile and if I'm bad at it and
if I'm not getting better and ifI hate it, that's fine.
There's an end date.
(02:35):
At some point I can just belike, okay, I did the thing and
I can call it good.
That helped me get over aninitial blocker I had of do I
really want to do this, is thisgoing to work out, type of
concerns.
But yes, I have really reallyenjoyed the process of doing
this podcast.
It's given me a lot ofopportunities to have a reason
(02:57):
to go and talk to a person thatI have always been hesitant to
approach for casual conversation.
And I think you know this aboutme I'm an introvert.
I have a certain amount ofsocial anxiety which, the more
I've talked to people, the moreI've realized that is not a
unique or special thing aboutdevelopers.
A lot of us wrestle with thesesame issues.
(03:19):
It's one of those things whereit's like I always felt so kind
of hemmed in by my own inabilityto just get out of my own way
to go talk to people.
But one of the things that youand I kind of connected over
when we first met was boardgames.
Board games are so special tome, partially for that reason.
(03:41):
It provides a reallyinteresting structure of how you
interact with other people fora limited amount of time.
And I found at RailsConf, atone of the board game nights I
kind of realized I've beenreally really quiet and reserved
all day and then I get to aboard game night.
It's not just board games arefun, it's.
(04:05):
All of a sudden my weird brainis oh, I know how to interact
with people now because thereare rules in this little piece
of paper that tell me how Iinteract with people for the
next 30 minutes.
And so, circling back to thepodcast, suddenly I had a
structure that I could tell mybrain.
I'm going to go talk to thisperson about RailsConf and we're
going to ask them questionsabout their experiences, how
they were involved withRailsConf, if they were involved
(04:28):
in planning it or giving a talkor through the scholars and
guides program.
I had brainstormed out thisagenda of questions that I could
ask, and it just started tokind of slowly rewire my brain a
little bit to be like oh, maybetalking to people isn't as
scary as I thought it was.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's still kind of scary, there's still a degree of
scaredness, but I feel like thestructure provides you with an
escape hatch.
Yeah, it's still scary, but youcan just be like, all right.
Well, that's all the questionsI have, so I'm out now.
Similar to the way that boardgames are like, there's an end
goal to board games, so this islimited interaction.
It provides that escape hatch,at least for me, because I'm
(05:07):
sort of like you.
I'm on the introverted side.
I enjoy interacting with people, but it makes me super nervous.
I have a limited social batteryand if I don't feel like
there's an escape hatch to aconversation, I'm immediately
awkward.
But if I'm like this is alimited conversation, I'm good
to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
But for me, rubyconf back in November was my first
RubyConf.
I've been to multiple RailsConfbut this most recent one was my
first RubyConf and most of thetime, through these conferences
I'll have maybe one good daywhere I feel high energy, I feel
like I can get out there andsocialize and talk to people and
(05:48):
I usually have to kind of workmyself up into that state, which
is not always successful,because I can't do it on the
other days.
This past RubyConf I went thewhole week and I didn't feel
like I came down from being like, yeah, let's go talk to people
and see interesting things andthe talks and everything.
And honestly I attribute a lotof that to just doing the
(06:09):
podcast kind of getting the repsin of okay, I'm talking to.
I think nowadays I'm generallyrecording two episodes a week,
twice a week having a 30-minuteconversation with someone, most
of the time that I haven't metbefore.
Okay, we'll start with generalquestions about RailsConf and as
they're talking oh wait, youjust said something interesting,
(06:32):
let's circle back to that anddive into that a little bit
deeper.
Just getting those practicesessions in a really low-risk
environment what's the worstthat can happen when you're
recording a podcast?
You stumble over your words alittle bit and then, thankfully,
we're using an editor, the sameeditor that you use.
We stumble around for a coupleof minutes and it's like, hey,
mr editor paul, please just kindof clean this up for us.
(06:55):
There's no downside, there's norisk to flubbing around for a
little bit.
It's really helped my mentalstate.
It's really kind of fun to gotalk to people who also happen
to like Ruby.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, shout out to Paul for making us sound so much
better at conversations than weactually are.
Thank you, paul.
There's that saying.
You are what you consistentlydo.
You're consistently havingthese conversations with people
you don't know intimately well.
It becomes a little bit easier,so it all makes sense.
I think you're doing a greatjob.
(07:28):
I really enjoy the show.
I enjoyed being on the show.
I enjoy listening to the showand if you are not listening to
the show, do yourself a favorand go take a listen and then
come to the very last RailsConfin July in Philly.
It's going to be awesome.
But back to the actual show,the template that I have.
If you're new to the show, thisis not how my show normally
(07:49):
goes.
Normally, what happens is I'mgoing to ask David three
questions.
I'm going to ask him what he'sworking on Could be podcast
related, maybe what kind ofblockers he has.
If he doesn't have a currentblocker, he can talk about a
recent blocker he had, how hewent about solving it, and then
we'll wrap up the show withsomething cool, new or
interesting that David'srecently learned or discovered
(08:09):
or even built and made.
It doesn't have to be codingrelated, but it absolutely can
be so, david, what are youworking on?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
A lot of my personal time right now is spent on the
podcast, the stuff I'm doing formy job.
I hope no one listens to this.
It's not super interesting orengaging.
Right now I'm still relativelynew to the company, and so it's
this big sprawling monolith withmultiple different teams with
different focuses working on it.
Okay, I guess I'm building thistiny little feature over here,
(08:39):
but, yeah, the podcast is thebig piece of what I'm working on
right now.
There's also since we'retalking about RailsConf a little
bit earlier the CFP opened up,I think last week, and so I
submitted something for thatthat I hope gets accepted, but
it's more of a panel discussiontype proposal, so I'm hoping
that gets accepted, since Ithink that would be cool, but
(09:06):
I'm also still trying to workout something to propose.
That's a more technical talk.
One of my longstanding issuesis trying to come up with
something that I think isinteresting that isn't also
immediately squashed by my brainof you're just late to the
party.
Everyone else already knowsthis.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I do not think that there are topics that actually
exist like that.
I know your brain is tellingyou that my brain is telling me
they are.
I know it's not real.
Really, every topic, even ifsomeone's already talked about
it, even if someone's alreadybeat it to death, your approach
to the delivery will bedifferent than theirs, which
might resonate with someonedifferently.
(09:40):
So someone's going to get valueout of it.
A lot of things, shit changes,right.
Shit changes in Ruby, itchanges in Rails.
You could talk about like, hey,our approach to doing anything
on the front end is drasticallydifferent now that we're on
Rails 8 than maybe the last timesomeone talked about it in
Rails 4 or even Rails 5, whenthe last major change to how
(10:01):
front end happens on Rails, thatkind of stuff, those are valid.
Like, yeah, someone's alreadytalked about front-end with
Rails before, not with Rails 8,not with their approach to how
they build view components orhow your company's handling
whatever.
I hear you I deal with the samethings where I'm like oh, I
could talk about this.
People smarter than me havedefinitely already talked about
(10:23):
that before, but it's stillvalid.
It's still.
I have a very different approachto how I handle myself up on
stage than someone else might.
A very deadpool-esque style ofhumor.
So I've been told bestcompliment I've ever received
after giving my game show everwas being told that I have a
very Deadpool-like sense ofhumor, thank you, but if you're
(10:48):
actually struggling with someCFP-esque topics, there are CFP
coaching opportunities throughRuby Central coming up.
This is for you, david, sinceI'm talking to you right now.
But anyone listening who's alsolike I should submit something
I don't know what, or I need abetter refinement.
Monday February 17th, tuesdayFebruary 18th and Wednesday
(11:09):
February 19th they're all atdifferent times, sorry.
The 17th is at 9 am, 18th atnoon and the 19th at 4 pm
Eastern time.
All of those you can registerthrough Ruby Central's posted
link.
A few places they have someawesome people doing great
coaching sessions can help youget unblocked, refine your CFPs
(11:31):
ideas, consolidate ideas into amore cohesive talk.
So anyone listening, includingyou, david, who's like I want to
submit more CFPs or refine thisidea.
I highly recommend taking theopportunity to get some
mentorship on the CFP frompeople who have been there and
done that a lot, so that can behelpful.
(11:53):
I know Kevin Murphy has helpedme with my CFP more than a few
times early when I was juststarting to do the game show and
it gave me a lot moreconfidence to hit the submit
button, knowing that someone asexperienced as him was like yeah
, no, this sounds good, or hereare the tweaks to make, or what
have you so highly recommended?
I?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
did see the announcement for those coaching
opportunities in the RubyCentral Slack, which is also
another resource that if you'relistening to this podcast you
should definitely join the RubyCentral Slack just to be a
little bit more connected tothose types of announcements and
everything.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Totally.
It's the place to find all yourfavorite Ruby developers too.
A ton of people in there.
So Ruby Central Community Slack.
If you're not in, feel free toreach out and I will make sure
that you get in.
Cool, so you have one CFP in.
You have some hopes, desires todo another CFP.
You're podcasting like crazy.
(12:52):
Is there anyone that you hopeto have on the podcast that you
haven't yet and don'tnecessarily have scheduled?
Or maybe someone you do havescheduled that you're really
excited about and you want totease it a little bit?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
As of this recording, the latest guest was Cindy
Backman of Cop Breaks.
She's awesome.
It was really fun talking withher because she's got such a
different perspective than anyof us would have about these
types of events because of whatshe's there for.
So that was really fun talkingto her about the preparation and
the perspective that goes intoactually recording and getting
(13:21):
all this stuff set up to be ableto record that presentation.
Well, I don't remember if thiswas someone else I was talking
to or if this came from her, butit might have been from you.
Even Just the videos for RailsWorld weren't super well edited
together, because there's theperson on stage talking and you
want to be able to see them talk, but there's also their slides,
(13:42):
which are also usually prettyinformative to what they're
talking about.
So you need to see able to seethem talk, but there's also
their slides, which are alsousually pretty informative to
what they're talking about, andso you need to see that too.
And a lot of the Rails worldfilming didn't capture the
slides well.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, I don't think that was me that brought it up,
but I definitely agree with thatstatement of the Rails world.
Videos were good-ish, butdefinitely I think there was
some context quality missingthere.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So maybe it came from the conversation with her.
That was a really interestingkind of realization for me, like
, oh, there's a whole lot morethat goes into trying to record
these videos than just pointinga camera at the stage.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
So the next three guests areall people who went through the
Scholar Guide program either atRailsConf or at RubyConf.
(14:27):
I had a thought at one pointthat I wanted to have a nice
long list of episodes that werefrom the Scholar Guides,
especially since I'm expectingthat the application window for
the Scholar Guide program forRailsConf will be opening up
soon.
Once that does, I'm going tostart making additional posts
(14:48):
every week.
If you're curious about thisprogram, point to another
episode of.
Here's a scholar who wentthrough the program.
Here's a guide who helped ascholar through the program.
Go listen to what they have tosay about this program if you're
even thinking about applying tothis.
So I've got three scholarscoming up, and then I did a
first for our editor, paul.
(15:08):
I had him edit an episode thathad I think it was nine people
in it.
Whoa, that's a lot of people.
So, yeah, most of my episodesare just a one-on-one interview.
Yeah, so late last year I movedfrom Kansas City to Tampa.
Right before I left Kansas CityI made a connection.
There was a Ruby Central Slackfor consultants that recently
(15:32):
got merged into the main RubyCentral Slack channels.
But I was in that Slack becauseI want to do more consulting
work and kind of break out ontomy own at some point.
It's just a very slow process.
But somebody else in thatchannel was also in the Kansas
City area and so I did anuncharacteristic thing for me
and reached out at one point.
I always love to connectsometimes, since I'm leaving the
(15:54):
area and I'm feeling socialright now.
So I was kind of riding thatwave.
So we met for lunch and we hada good talk and everything.
And I asked towards the end ofthe conversation if he'd be
interested in coming on thepodcast sometime and he was like
actually I have a differentidea, because my whole team, his
whole company, they all went toRailsConf together and for some
(16:14):
of them it was their first time, for some of them it was
multiple times.
So he's like what would youthink of just having all of us
on the podcast.
That sounds kind of cool,because that would be a very
different thing than what Inormally do, and so, yeah, I
think it was nine people thatjust tell me how RailsConf went
for all of you guys.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I have no doubt Paul was able to tackle that Well.
He's always done the paneldiscussions.
Those have always come outreally good when he's got five
or six people and nine is a lot.
I have no doubt that came outawesome.
I'm excited for that one too.
Yeah, so that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And then two more I want to talk about really fast.
I'm going to go out of order alittle bit.
The latest one I've recordedwas with Freedom Dumlao.
Okay, cool, yeah, he was a lotof fun to talk to.
He had some really just funstories.
The whole reason I ended uptalking to him was because Chris
(17:09):
Oliver was hey, dave, youshould talk to Freedom here
because of his whole fun storyabout what happened at RailsConf
last year.
Oh yeah, I remember that thatwhole thing that Arena did on
stage.
Now he's in the spotlight.
I probably didn't expect to be.
So that one was fun.
And then the last one I'm goingto mention Sarah May.
Oh, awesome, because I got towork with her for a couple of
(17:31):
months years ago back at PivotalLabs when it was still Pivotal
Labs.
She was one of my favoritepeople.
She was just so awesome.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I've had limited interactions with her, but every
interaction has been awesomeand no one has ever had anything
negative to say about her evershe's amazing and she's
wonderful and she was one of thefirst people I reached out to
after I started the podcast.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
She's a fairly high-level employee at Backerkit
right now.
She was busy.
Yeah, it took a while to get anopening in her schedule to get
her to come on the show, butwhen she finally did, I was so
happy.
So those are the ones I'verecorded already.
And then I have some upcomingrecordings scheduled with a
(18:14):
couple of people from RubyCentral.
I've got Rhiannon coming on tokind of talk about kind of the
PR marketing side of things abit, and Ali Vogel I've got
coming on as well More theoperations side of things, I
guess.
So those are the ones I havescheduled now, and then there's
always kind's always the Rubycelebrity people that I'd love
(18:36):
to have on the show at somepoint.
At some point I need to bitethe bullet.
Since I took the risk andinvited DHH cold at that one
point and it worked out for me.
At some point I need to do thatagain and reach out to Eileen
at some point.
She'd be fun to talk to over atRailsConf.
I had Aaron Patterson already,so I already checked that box,
(18:58):
so jealous.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Every time I see him I'm like, when are you coming on
my show?
And he's soon, and then itnever happens.
And I think it's more my faultthan his, because I'm always you
should come on the show.
And he's like, okay, I'll sendyou a link.
And I send him a link and thenI forget to follow up.
And if someone sent me a linkand then never followed, up with
me, I would never click thatlink.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's the funny thing, though.
With Aaron, it almost became awhite whale situation for me too
.
The first time we scheduled, hetotally forgot, and so I
emailed him and we rescheduledfor that second scheduled time.
Something happened and Itotally forgot, and it went back
and forth like that for threeor four different times.
Finally we have it scheduled,and it actually happened.
(19:42):
I was just like, oh, thankgoodness, I wanted to have this
conversation with AaronPatterson and I was not going to
let it go.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
He's awesome.
Glad you got him on.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
At this point and this is kind of one of my
blockers that I have kind ofpending in the back of my head
was I have this near constantworry that I'm running out of
guests to have on the show and Ineed it to run for two months
longer than I was reallyexpecting it to go.
Railsconf typically is in Mayand this year it's in July.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Right now I think I have everything running out to
April.
If I have no more guests recordwith me at all beyond what I
currently have scheduled, I'llrun through the beginning of
April.
It's not super pending.
I feel like I've got a littlebit of a buffer.
I need to start inviting peopleagain because I don't have
anything new new appointmentsbeing made right now.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Well, I know you've had Chris and Ufuk on, but you
could have them on again nowthat they're announced as
co-chairs for the last one.
I've had Chris on, I haven'thad Ufuk on yet.
Oh, you haven't had Ufuk.
Well, there you go.
You got to get Ufukon.
There's an idea you could alsohave Chris on again, since he's
now co-chairing the lastRailscom.
The programming committee willcome out soon.
(21:01):
You can have them on again andtalk about what they are hoping
for.
The last one, and there'sthings coming soon.
There's a lot happening behindthe scenes that'll become public
soon and you'll have a wholenew host of people to talk to.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Oh yeah, a lot of that just kind of wriggling
around at the back of my mind,of the co-chairs now that
they're announced, and thenother ruby central people as we
get closer to it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I definitely want to try and rope them into a little
bit more we need to do is youneed to have someone come on
your show and hijack the showand interview you about your
experiences at RailsConf?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Ooh, Kinsey actually half did that during the episode
Her she turned one of myquestions right back on me after
she answered.
It's like that's not how thisis supposed to work.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
You're just supposed to talk about your stuff.
I am not prepared to talk aboutme.
Please stop.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I am a bit of an introvert, but once I'm
comfortable talking with aperson I can very easily go into
.
Let's tell a story mode.
I can go for a while, butthat's not the point of this
show.
I don't want to just be talkingabout my stuff.
I want to be talking about yourstuff.
If you turn it back on me, Ihave to really rein myself in,
or I will just kind of go.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I know that feeling this is going off the rails,
let's reel it back in, all right?
Do you have other blockers thatyou want to talk about?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
This one is not a current blocker but it's a
blocker that I ran into alongthe way that I kind of alluded
to it a little bit earlier, butit's been on my mind recently so
I kind of wanted to bring it upagain.
That whole issue of approachingsomeone that I don't know to
have a conversation with them.
We've talked before about howhaving a very kind of deliberate
(22:47):
structure in mind for myinteraction with that person has
really helped kind of get overthat blocker.
But I'm in my 40s.
How did it take me 40 years ofmy life to figure out how to
just have a conversation with aperson that I don't already know
?
The amount of time and energythat I feel like I wasted over
(23:10):
the years of not feelingcomfortable being able to go and
connect with another personterrifies me a little bit.
It's just kind of like that's alot of wasted time where just
not being able to interact withpeople.
When I was a much younger, muchless experienced developer, I
used to think that my job wasall about the code, which in a
(23:32):
podcast with the word code in itso many times, that might seem
appropriate as I've kind ofgrown up more and started having
the ability to interact withpeople a bit more.
That perspective that I've hadon it has changed a lot, where
it's like, oh no, the job isn'tabout the code.
(23:53):
The code is a tool that I usedto do the job, but the job is
more about other people.
It's about how other people usethe system and the software
that you're building andsupporting, and if you're not
actually understanding andmeeting their needs, then it
doesn't matter what you do withthe code, because it doesn't
give them what they need, whichcircles right back around the
need to be able to communicateeffectively and accurately and
comfortably with other people.
(24:13):
To be able to communicateeffectively and accurately and
comfortably with other people,to be able to really gauge what
it is that they need.
That's been a big kind ofrevelation to me recently.
Just wow, the opportunitiesthat I probably missed out on
because I wasn't comfortabletalking to people and seeing how
much that's changed for me overthis past year through doing
(24:38):
this simple little podcast.
From the beginning I feltpretty confident this was going
to be a pretty niche podcastRuby developers, but even then
only Ruby developers who reallycare about RailsConf, who are
interested in hearing otherpeople's stories.
The audience for that is notgoing to be some mega
blockbuster-sized audience, butit was a project that helped me
(25:01):
do something that I wasinitially very scared of for
lack of a better way to describeit and so it was helping me do
something that was outside of mycomfort zone.
That has really made a lot ofchanges for me personally.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I feel like that's how a lot of awesome projects
come about is someone's justtrying to solve their own
problem for themselves, and thenthey're just hey, other people
might enjoy this thing.
That I did too.
I'm, of course, talkingslightly more about code and
software, but you indirectlywent out and solved your own
(25:37):
problem of I need to get betterat talking to people and I can
talk to people in this morestructured setting and then you
hit the record button and nowother people get to enjoy the
conversations that you've hadtoo, but I think the fact that
you were getting so much benefitout of it, too helps you keep
going with it, which is anotherchallenging part of podcasting
is sometimes it's like, oh crap,I need another guest, or oh, I
(25:59):
need to spend time talking topeople or prepping or putting
this episode together,remembering to respond to my
emails or whatever, and if youdon't have a good enough reason
to enjoy what you're doing, youmight lose the energy to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, I actually had to dial it back a little bit and
structure it a little bit more.
For the recording timesOriginally I just kind of opened
my schedule up five days a weekfrom noon on.
It was just pick a time, I'llrecord whenever you guys want,
and so, like I was recordingthree or four episodes a week,
at certain points I loved it.
(26:37):
I really, really enjoyed it.
But at the same time as likethis might be burning the candle
at both ends, just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Just sounds like that sounds like a lot.
I sort of embarrassing to admitthat I struggle to do my two
times a month recording.
When you're like, oh yeah,three or four times a week, I
would just hammer them out, thatsounds like a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
And it was, it was, and so I stopped recording in
late November so I could gothrough the holidays with a
break.
And when I started recordingagain in January, I was like,
all right, tuesdays andThursdays In the afternoon,
those are the only open times.
I've had one guest so far comeback and ask if I had an opening
(27:19):
in another time of the week, ona different day, because
Tuesdays and Thursdays didn'twork for her.
And so for that one person Iwas like, yes, I will open up a
block on another day and I'llsend you a custom link to that
one.
I can be flexible with it, butI need to be more structured
with it so I don't burn myselfout.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah, and if Tuesdays and Thursdays in this certain
time slot works for most people,then great, it's a benefit to
you and they just have to pickfrom this small spot and if
someone can't, they'll reach out.
The guys from Remote Ruby dothat.
They record on Fridays, I think, at noon or 11 or whatever it
is, and if they're having aguest on that can't do that time
.
They might adjust here or there, but for the most part that's
(28:01):
when they record and if you wantto come on their show, that's
when they record and I feel likethat probably helps them a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Speaking of Remote Ruby, did you see that Jason is
leaving the show?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, imagine me a guy who works with jason charns
every day, talks to him on slackalmost every day, is on the
same project currently with himand finding out through blue sky
that he's recording his lastepisode of Remote Ruby before I
(28:35):
even get on the show.
I sense some frustration fromyou the number of times I have
declined Andrew Mason's inviteto be on Remote Ruby because I
promised Jason I wouldn't comeon the show unless he was there
when I came on the show.
And now I'm so mad at him.
(28:56):
I love Jason.
He's a fantastic human, butcurrently I'm a little mad at
him.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I saw that the other day and did I miss an
announcement or something?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I saw that moments before jumping on a Zoom
call with him, so that was fun.
I should have given him anearful.
I was like dude, what?
And he's like I just need abreak.
Been doing it for Listen.
I understand he's been doing itfor years and it's gotten way
bigger than it was ever supposedto be.
It was supposed to be justhanging out and chatting.
(29:30):
It was just supposed to be himand Chris chatting about stuff,
yeah.
So it got way bigger than heever intended and it's a lot,
and he's got little kids at homeand listen.
I totally get it.
I just mean the way that Ifound out, dude, and he's also
one of my favorite podcasters.
You never want to hear that oneof your favorite anyone is done
(29:52):
doing what they do.
Oh, that's depressing.
I know that Chris and Andrewwill keep it going and it'll be
still an awesome show, and I canhear Jason rant about whatever
shit is bothering him.
You work with him.
I have a unique access to thatman, so it's not that bad.
Yeah, I feel for the rest ofthe community that's going to
(30:13):
lose out on the Jason Charnesmagic every week.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, I reached out to Chris Oliver when I saw the
news and was like, is this real,what is happening?
And he said pretty much theexact same thing that he's been
doing it for a long time.
He's got three young kids now.
Oh yeah, I remember when mykids were young.
You need to have a certainamount of energy to handle life
at that point.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, especially his kids.
He tells me stories and I'mlike, dude, you have your hands
full.
Like the pranks his kids willplay on him is crazy.
He'll tell us some stories.
Your son is eight and pullingthese kinds of pranks.
You are screwed.
When he becomes a teenager,dude, you are so screwed.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
it's amazing his kids sound awesome sounds like he's
raising him right but, you knowit takes a certain amount of
energy and sure, yeah, this thattotally come from somewhere
else.
If it's not available, yeah,we'll definitely miss hearing.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Jason on remote ruby yeah, definitely so the last
question, because I feel likeI've already taken up too much
of your Friday Eve what issomething cool, new, interesting
that you've recently learned,discovered, built, created
(31:35):
anything.
It doesn't have to be codingrelated.
Obviously, this is code and thecoding coders who code it, so
it can be code related, but itdoesn't have to be.
So hit me, what do you got?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
The only thing I was able to come up with
contemplating this questionearlier was Joe Mazzolotti's new
book, the Hotwire.
I picked that up on PragmaticProgrammer.
I started working my waythrough it.
I actually have a freelance gigthat I'm working through a
little bit to build a mobile appfor a charity foundation thing,
(32:02):
trying to be deliberately vaguebecause I don't know how kosher
it is to shoot that name outthere, since it's a fairly
recognizable name.
But yeah, it's just.
Oh, this hotline negative bookis coming out right on time for
me to have to do a mobile app.
This is going to be so mucheasier yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
No, it's cool and joe knows his shit and I'm excited
to see the book.
I'm excited for joe definitelygonna have him back on the show
to talk about the book soon,hopefully fingers crossed,
scheduling and whatnot but yeah,that's a good one.
Super excited for the book.
I will be picking that one uptoo.
I learned from andrewatkinson's postgres book and
(32:42):
Nohrappin's Pick-Ass book that Iam terrible with beta copies of
books.
I know some people are greatwith it and by all means, if
you're chomping at the bit, grabit ASAP.
But I just learned throughgetting both of their books in
beta that I am really bad atbeta books.
(33:03):
So I will be waiting just alittle bit.
Just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
What do you mean by you're bad at beta books?
I don't really understand.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I think the best way to consume a beta book is you
read the chapter and then, whenthe new version's released, you
reread the chapter, you rereadthe book, and I think that's
probably a really good way toconsume technical books in
general.
That's sort of how studyingworks, right, you're supposed to
repeatedly consume.
My ADHD does not allow me toreread chapters of a book.
(33:34):
I can't do it.
I don't like it, it's not good.
Listener, you can't see this,but David can.
There's a lot of books and Ihave not actually finished 50%
of those books on my bookshelfand there's even more below it.
That's two shelves and then twoshelves.
I also have a lot of books togo through, so I need to read it
(33:55):
, probably once.
Maybe I'll refer back to asection that I'm like oh, I
remember this.
I need to reconsume thatinformation.
Beta books are an awesome idea,and especially if you're
someone who's good at studyingand repeatedly reading a chapter
to get good at the information.
I just, unfortunately, am not.
So I'm like okay for this bookbecause I want to read it.
(34:16):
I'm going to wait until it'seither done or very close to
done, and then I'll consume.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Fair.
That makes sense.
I think I fall into the samecategory as you in terms of
being bad at beta books, becauseI will read it through at
whatever version I startedreading it and then I'll circle
back to it if I need to review atopic at some future point.
But I don't regularly go backand try to really see what
changed or whatever.
(34:45):
But there's also certain lovesin my life in the world of
literature, with fiction andfandom and stuff like that that
I'm fairly energetic andpassionate about making sure
that people who are creatingthose types of things for my
enjoyment get paid so they cancontinue to make these things
that I love.
For that reason alone, ifnothing else, I really enjoy
(35:08):
finding even these technicalbooks like this Hotwire Native
book that I know is going to paydividends for me in the long
run with some skills andknowledge that will help me do
things in my job better,throwing some money Joe's way so
that he can keep doing andworking on these things that
have led him to making this book.
Even if I don't get around toreading the beta at all and end
(35:29):
up just getting the full booklater on, I don't look at it as
money poorly spent.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Oh yeah, no, absolutely.
I'm definitely getting the book.
I also have an affinity toprint copies, which probably
sounds weird for a softwaredeveloper to be like.
I like print books and noteBooks.
I love having the physical.
I take notes in my books.
In technical books I highlightstuff.
I did get a Remarkable, whichis really cool.
My wife got it for me forChristmas one year and it
(35:56):
definitely was a game changerfor eBooks because I could take
notes and highlight.
It's great for planes because Idon't need to bring a thick
book.
It's great for conferencesbecause I don't need to have a
notebook and a book.
But if I'm at home and it'stotally up to me, I would rather
pick up the physical book copy.
I stare at a screen eight to 10hours a day already.
I don't want to stare atanother one to read my book.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Not just that, but with the technical books.
Show me a technical book thatdoes not refer you to a table or
a chart or an image on someother page in the book, or refer
back to some previous chapterand you're like wait, what was
that again, it's so much easierwith a physical book to flip
back to that page and curl thepages a little bit so you can
(36:38):
see the chart on one side andthe words you're reading on the
other side.
That's 100 pages later in thebook.
Yeah, I'm right with you therethe physical book.
If I have that option and ifit's at home, absolutely I'm
going with the physical book.
The ebooks and other thingshave their utility and have a
perfectly valid place for use,but, all other things being
(37:01):
equal, I prefer the physicalbook too.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I own a lot of these books as physical and e-book
because I'm like I like thephysical but e-book is very
convenient.
I go to conferences and speakand stuff, so I want to play in
enough.
It's warranted to have both.
But yeah, good, call out.
Yeah, joe Malazotti's book isgoing to be awesome.
Super excited for it.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Is there anything else you want to talk about
before we wrap up?
One last plug for RailsConfthis July it's in Philly.
That's why Drew is so excited.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Okay, to be fair, I would be excited for the very
last RailsConf regardless.
But yes, with it being inPhilly, I am doubly excited.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Yes, With it being in Philly, I am doubly excited.
I remember you at RailsConflast year.
Philly was not on the shortlist.
They gave us of places toconsider where the final
RailsConf would be.
You manifested this.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
You would be surprised what I can get done
when I have an extreme amount ofenergy.
You give me hyper fixation onsomething.
That's a lot of energy that Iget to pour into something.
So, yeah, I'm also excitedbecause it was me putting a shit
ton of energy into tellinganyone who would listen and a
few people who wouldn't listenthat it should be in Philly.
Yeah, and it apparently worked.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
So, yeah, I'm really looking forward to RailsConf
this year and hoping to see alot of people there, get to meet
some new people and get toactually meet some people that
I've only talked to virtuallynow through the podcast and
actually talk to them in personand celebrate the conclusion of
the RailsConf journey.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, it's going to be awesome.
It's going to be a party.
Early bird tickets will begoing on sale soon-ish.
Soon, tm, soon, hashtag,hashtag, soon.
There's no official date yet,but soon.
You don't want to miss out, sohope to see everyone there.
David, where can folks find youand Ode to RailsConf on the
(38:57):
internet?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
For Ode to RailsConf.
Just odetorailsconfcom is thewebsite for the podcast, but
it's also registered in prettymuch every podcast directory, so
searching for the name shouldfind it.
For my own socials, I thinkBlue Sky is probably the best
one to find me these days, sinceI've largely abandoned Twitter.
(39:19):
My profile on BlueSky isdavidhilldev.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
So, everybody, if you haven't listened to David's
podcast yet, now that you'velistened to him on this one,
definitely go check out Ode toRailsConf.
We will see you all atRailsConf, we hope.
Thanks for listening.
Talk to you in the next episode.
Bye.
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