August 27, 2024 • 31 mins
Get ready to uncover every crucial detail of navigating the journey to law school. In this episode, we discuss the application components and process as well as a realistic timeline for applying to law school. We review how law school applications stand apart from other graduate programs and provide tips on how to navigate the different components of the application. Discover why starting early can make all the difference.
In this packed episode, we break down the essentials: mastering the LSAT or GRE, crafting a standout personal statement, and utilizing optional essays strategically. Hear our tips on connecting with faculty, students, and alumni to gain invaluable insights. Whether you're considering the best prep programs like Blueprint or Khan Academy, or wondering how to present your challenges and aspirations compellingly, we've got you covered. Tune in to equip yourself with everything you need to make your law school application process smooth and successful!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hola, hola, bienvenidos.
Hi, arminé, Hello, how are youGood?
How are you?
I'm good, I'm excited for thisepisode.
I'm ready to learn.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Oh yes, I'm excited too.
What are we doing?
Tell me what are we doing.
We're talking about law school.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
This is a specialty episode for all of you out there
.
Arminé is feeling in the lawschool mode.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yes, and I will tell you why.
Law school applications areopening up soon in a couple of
weeks and the majority of myappointments at UCLA have been
about law school Ever since Ireturned from maternity leave.
Literally, I would say 90% ofmy appointments are about
pre-law.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I love it.
I love it because it's alsobeen a topic that I've been
researching myself, just becausea lot of students, when they
can't book an appointment withthe amazing Armanay I get those
questions sometimes too.
I think, subconsciously, though, we also have a really good
friend who's doing jury dutyright now.
Yes, so that's where this isprobably coming from too, but I
love it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So that's where this is probably coming from too, but
I love it.
Yes, that is so true.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You guys, one of our friends.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Who's listening?
Yes, most likely will belistening at some point.
We won't name names.
You know who you are.
They are on jury duty and it'sa long ass process.
Dude, we won't even see thisperson until they're, like, done
with jury duty.
Basically, it's like next year,yeah, so we're upset with the
court, the us supreme court,because we can't see our friend,
(01:33):
but anyway, um, they are onjury duty and this is something
that's been kind of in ourconversations, I think, lately.
Right, just talking about thelaw and how the system works,
and then, on top of that, thestudent appointments and law
school applications opening upsoon, so we felt inspired to
talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I absolutely love it.
I think it's also good, though,because if you maybe this
doesn't necessarily relate toyou, but if you know someone
who's interested in the lawschool process, you can always
share this episode with them, oreven tell them something you
learned in this episode too.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, please, please share widely with anyone who is
considering law school if it'sstill just a thought in their
mind and they're not sure ifthat's the path they want to
take, or if they already have anidea and they're committed to
it but they don't know where tostart or the timeline and
everything.
We can address all of those inthis episode and please share
(02:29):
widely.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Absolutely.
Or you could just refer them toMs Armanay herself and she can
give thema counseling sessionabout how to apply to law school
and if law school is even rightfor them.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, I would love to.
I love talking about law schooland working with pre-law folks,
so through Career Rise I alsocan support people who are in
this process, either deciding onit or going through personal
statements, resumes and theapplication process for law
school.
I'm happy to support folks inthat process Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right, Armanay.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout this process, because law
school, I don't know.
Is it different than regularold grad school?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Great question.
It is so not different.
I will say, though I think thatin general society, we put law
school on a pedestal and wethink it's this big scary thing
when we're applying to it, andin reality it's a graduate
program.
It is not much different fromother graduate programs.
(03:35):
It may be slightly morecompetitive, but there are also
many, many competitive graduateprograms out there.
So the reality is it's notdifferent in terms of the
application process or in termsof how you're going to be
feeling as a law student.
It's going to be super busy andintense, just like most other
graduate programs.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, some of the main things that I hear is that
it's a pre-professional programright.
And if you are applying to apre-professional program, what
does that mean versus a?
When we say regular graduateprogram or graduate program,
we're talking about a master'sdegree or a PhD or a different
type of doctorate right.
When it's a pre-professionalprogram, like an MBA, a master's
(04:16):
in business administration, alaw school right.
So getting a JD, all thesedifferent things, or an MD or
any pre-health graduate program,they're leading you to a
specific career.
Right.
You go to dental school, dentalgraduate school, to become a
dentist.
You go to medical school tobecome an MD, a doctor, go to
law school to become an attorneyright, and within the legal
(04:38):
court.
So know that a pre-professionalprogram is leading you towards
a specific path and career,whereas a graduate program could
lead you, like our master's incounseling could really take us
anywhere.
It doesn't always have to becounseling itself.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yes, that is a big difference between
pre-professional programs andgenerally other graduate
programs.
And another difference is thatthese pre-professional programs
like MBA, JD, MD, those are likethe highest level degree you
could get within that industry,equivalent to a PhD in other
industries.
(05:12):
So that's another way to thinkabout it is you're getting the
highest level degree.
That is also why law schoolsare very intense and competitive
.
But if it is something that youare passionate about, something
that you really want to do,it's worth it.
And usually for any kind ofgrad program, regardless of how
(05:32):
intense it is, if it's alignedwith your passions, then it is
going to still feel very naturaland you're still going to enjoy
the process, as difficult as itmay be.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what does this process looklike?
How do I do it if I want toapply to law school this year?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yes.
So in terms of applying to lawschool, that process you
probably won't enjoy I don'tthink anyone enjoys applying to
a program but the end result isgreat.
So, with that said, the processis it takes quite a bit of time
.
I would say it takes about ayear in advance.
So, thinking about the year youwant to start law school, that
(06:12):
the year previous to that isyour application year.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Ok, OK, so if I want to go next fall, I got to apply
now.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, and starting the whole calendar year let's say
we're in 2024 right now fromJanuary 2024 to essentially
November or December 24 is yourapplication year, gotcha.
So that whole year you shouldbe focusing on your applications
and we're going to dig intowhat that actually means.
But your applications open upin September.
(06:41):
So in September theapplications open up in
September.
So in September theapplications open up.
You want to have yourapplications done by the end of
November, the latest.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay, and where do I go?
How do I do this?
Am I using a portal?
Am I going to the specificschool?
Do I just Google?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
it?
Yes, great question.
You are using a portal and theportal is called LSAC.
This is essentially the hub forall things law school.
It's a law school admissionscouncil website and you would
need to create an account onthere.
When the applications open up,they're going to open up on that
(07:21):
website.
You log in with your accountand you essentially go through
the application process and youwould select the law schools
that you're applying to throughthis portal and each law school
will kind of have its ownnuances of certain personal
statement prompts or certaindifferences in certain questions
that they ask, but a lot of thematerials are going to be the
(07:44):
same for most law schools.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Awesome, and this is the one portal I'm going to use
to submit all the applicationsto each school.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yes, including your recommendation letters, your
transcripts from undergrad.
All materials will be uploadedto this portal.
There is a specific paidservice through LSAC that's
called the Credential AssemblyService, which is CAS.
If you pay for the CAS service,you are able to upload your
(08:17):
transcripts and your letters ofrec on there, and it is highly
recommended because if you'redoing your letters of rec
through CAS, it will send aletter, you will put the
information of your recommenderinto CAS and then it will send
them an email with the link toupload the letter.
So it simplifies the process.
If you don't use the CASservice, you would have to get
(08:39):
letters mailed to the school,which is possible.
Yeah, you can do that to theschool, which is possible.
Yeah, you can do that.
But in my work I've always seenfolks use Cal State, but it is
a paid service, but it's notrequired.
It is not required.
The law schools will give theoption to have a letter be
mailed to them.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Okay, so it sounds like I have to have an
application form filled outreferences or recommendations
and something else.
I've been hearing Armanay well,for graduate programs it's
usually familiar that you'resupposed to take the GRE or the
General Requirements exam.
For law school.
I know it's the LSAT.
Do I have to take the LSAT?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, you do have to take the LSAT.
Something to say about thesegraduate exams in general.
There's a lot of uptake in theeducation industry about not
requiring exams anymore.
The same thing happened withundergrad with the SATs.
So the UC systems actuallyabandoned the SATs anymore, and
(09:45):
the reason for that is becausethere is a lot of research
happening about showing thatthese exams don't necessarily
predict student success ingraduate programs or in
education programs in general.
So, for example, the SATs wereabandoned for undergrad and then
now graduate programs are alsoreviewing whether they want to
require exams.
A lot of graduate programs haveremoved the GRE.
Law schools have been in talksabout removing the LSAT, but it
(10:11):
hasn't come to the point wherethey've officially removed the
requirement.
What I've seen a lot is a lotof programs will say you could
take the GRE instead to replacethe LSAT, because the LSAT is a
more specialized exam, the GREis general.
People might have a preferenceto take the GRE instead, but I
haven't seen any law programsthat have said like you don't
(10:33):
need to take an exam at all.
That might happen in theupcoming years, because these
conversations were happeningrecently, but for the time being
they're requiring either LSATor GRE still preferably the LSAT
though.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay, and I know um a lot of people, when they're
taking these exams, they like toknow a number.
So what is my score?
What should I be getting on theLSAT?
What should I be aiming for?
I guess, that's my question.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
The highest score you can get on the LSAT is 180.
And most folks are aiming for170 range or like maybe high
160s.
So to give a range I would saylike 165 to 175 might be a
realistic range.
Uh, the highest I've seen in uhthe students I've worked with
(11:20):
has been probably like 171 or so.
And then usually I tend to seefolks in the 160s range and
people who score in like 150s.
They usually are wanting toretake the exam so that they
could get a higher score.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, and let's say I'm studying for this exam.
What's your number one tip forme?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Ooh, that's a great question.
My number one tip is to startearly.
Don't wait until that last twomonths before your exam.
So if you know you want tostart law school at a certain
time and the year before that isyour application year, you're
going to want to take the LSAT,probably in the summer of your
(12:06):
application year.
So if you start the year beforethat, then you have a whole
year of studying until you takethe exam, and so this kind of
actually means that you have todecide on law school and then
have another, like maybe atleast one year or maybe two
years, so that you could prepand really take the time to
(12:28):
study for the LSAT.
There are prep programs for theLSAT that are usually paid, and
so some popular ones areBlueprint or Sage Academy.
Khan Academy has it too.
I've heard good things aboutBlueprint from my students, but
those are all paid and they havedifferent versions, like an
independent study version, groupclasses, live classes, and they
(12:51):
also have tutoring wow yeah,and each one has its own price
range, so you would have to kindof see what works best for you.
I always recommend my studentsto think about how they study
best.
Okay, so if you're anindependent learner versus, if
you need, if you actually preferthe classroom settings that the
group setting might work bestfor you, but it might be good to
(13:12):
start off independent in thevery beginning.
If you start early enough, youcould do that and get familiar
with the content.
There's practice tests on theLSAT website and there's a lot
of information on the LSATwebsite separately for the LSAT
exam.
What a lot of people do, too,is take a diagnostic test at
first, which is a practice testwithout any studying, to see
(13:36):
where they land, and then, ofcourse, as they study, they're
taking more practice tests tosee how their score improves.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Wow, you're making me want to take a practice test,
and I'm not even planning ongoing to law school.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Let's do it.
Yeah, it is interesting to seeyou know your progress, and so I
would say first take thediagnostic, start studying early
and try different study methodsto see which one works best for
you.
Those would be my main tips.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Quick question, though.
Let's say I don't like my score.
I got a 157 and I took it inJune of my application year,
right?
I'm applying, let's say, thisyear, and I took it two months
ago.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Can.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I take it again in September and resubmit my score.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, you can.
You can take the LSAT exammultiple times and it is usually
offered through November.
So if you take it, let's say,in June, then there's like an
August date, september, october,november dates, so you could
repeat it multiple times.
Some law schools will take thehigher score and some will
(14:43):
average it out, kind of depends.
Yeah, you also have the optionto preview your score and then
cancel it out so that lawschools don't see it.
Oh dang.
Yes, that is a paid service.
When you sign up for the LSAT,you can opt in for that service,
and so scores usually come outabout two weeks or so after you
(15:05):
take the exam.
You are able to preview it andif you don't like your score and
you don't want it to bereported, you can remove it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's crazy.
Would you recommend students orpeople applying to law school
do that?
Is there any like repercussionsif we choose to?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
There isn't.
It just it's not in your recordanywhere.
I actually say to a lot oftimes students will ask the
other side of that is oh, if Ishow multiple scores, is there a
repercussion?
There isn't, especially ifyou're improving your score.
Or is there a repercussion?
There isn't, especially ifyou're improving your score.
Ultimately, they're going tosee that you've worked hard and
studied and improved your scoreright.
So that's the goal, because Ithink I always have to clarify
(15:42):
to people I'm working with thatlaw school admissions
representatives are also humanand they don't expect you to be
a perfect robot.
We're not AI machines rightWalking around.
We're human beings.
You might have a low grade hereand there.
Every once in a while in yourtranscript you might have a low
score that you had to retake theexam for.
(16:03):
You're a human being, sothey're looking more about your
qualities and characteristicsand if you are able to increase
your score, you're telling themthat you put in the work to do
that right.
So that's actually a goodquality.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
of course, if you get a high score from the beginning
, that's even better foreveryone, but then nobody
expects you to be perfect andit's okay if you need to retake
it or resubmit things I lovethat you bring out or you
acknowledge the human side tothese things, because a lot of
time we put a lot of pressure onourselves to do something
correctly or get in a certainprogram or school or whatever.
(16:40):
So have you.
So I appreciate that you remindour audience that there's a
human side to this Right.
It's not only you coming in asa human being with what you have
to offer, but also the peopleevaluating you, as tough as it
may seem, offer, but also thepeople evaluating you, as tough
as it may seem.
Which leads me to my nextquestion.
And one of my favorite parts ofthe graduate school process,
which is the statements that youwrite, and we all know well,
(17:01):
you're about to know that forlaw school, you're submitting a
personal statement.
So, Armanay, what goes in apersonal statement?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Great, great question .
So personal statement isessentially a summary of your, I
should say, identity, yourcharacteristics, things that you
want to highlight to anadmissions committee and, a lot
of times, really good statements.
I actually read a really reallygreat statement just recently
(17:27):
she did.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
She was so excited she came to my office.
It was the the cutest thingever.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, I love that that statement was really well
done, because I think what madeit well done was that there was
the personal story.
That then transitioned into therelevant experiences, that
transitioned into why thisperson wants to go to law school
, and those are components thatyou want your story to embed.
(17:53):
But usually it could beanything from challenges you
faced People talk aboutchallenges from childhood,
growing up, or challenges whilethey were a student in college
family dynamics, legal issues,especially applying to law
school.
I do see a lot of times peopletalking about, maybe, legal
issues their family had and howthat's made them want to go into
(18:16):
law.
That people have talked abouthealthcare issues and that's
made them want to go into law.
So it's whatever challenges youmight have faced, whatever
moment you realized you wantedto go into law and your
curiosity sparked, whatevercharacteristics like leadership
qualities or resilience thosekinds of characteristics you
(18:37):
want to highlight.
Your story can revolve aroundthose things, but then it's not
just talking about your story.
Right, I would say that'sprobably the first one third of
your statement.
The next piece does need to gointo experiences or skill sets
that you want to highlight.
So if you've done internshipsor jobs or so that are relevant,
(18:57):
and then finishing it off withthe future tone, because you
don't want the whole statementto be past.
The tone shouldn't be focusedon your past.
It should also finish with thefuture.
So this is what I'm lookingforward to.
All these things made me who Iam today, which makes me a good
candidate for law school.
That's the question you'reanswering.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I love that.
I love that because it goesbeyond what they see on our
transcripts, what they see onour resume, what they see
through our references andrecommendations as well.
Your personal statement isreally your story to this
admissions committee, sayinglike this is what.
These are my lived experiences.
These are things that I haveencountered, I've overcome, I've
(19:37):
achieved and this is why thisis the amazingness that I'm
going to contribute to thisprogram and this is how this
degree, this program, can helpme achieve my goals as well.
So this is honestly one of myfavorite parts.
Funny fun fact I was startingto think about mine last week um
for for doctoral program whichis kind of crazy.
So I love personal statementsthey.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I do.
You know I've.
There are so many times I'vegotten emotional reading my
students personal statements.
You really get into the storyand you really start to like get
to know folks from theirstatement absolutely so it is a
really personal process andapplication and I love it too.
It's my favorite because it isbeyond the scores and the
transcripts and all of that.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah Well, armanet, I know through you, because you
are all things law here, thatthere are also optional essays.
So, for those of us who arethinking about applying to law
school, do I complete them, do Inot?
Not?
What do I add?
Do I do all of them?
Tell me about these optionalessays?
What do I do with them?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
yeah, optional essays are, in fact, optional.
Uh, one rule of thumb Irecommend people to think about
is depending on the prompt,which usually the prompts
revolve around either adiversity statement or address
why you want to go to thisparticular law school.
Those tend to be the morecommon optional statements, but
(20:59):
there might be some otherstatements too, depending on the
law school.
Whatever statement they'reasking in the prompt, think
about if you've addressed thatin your personal statement
already.
That's a good way to thinkabout.
Like, if I answer this optionalessay, am I adding more context
for the admissions committee?
If it's gonna be kind ofrepetitive to your statement,
(21:22):
then it's probably not necessary.
Sometimes it'll be like mystudents will say oh, I
mentioned let's say theymentioned the challenge or
something they talked about intheir statement, but I could
elaborate more because of theoptional essay prompt.
Should I write it Then?
Yes, if you can add more, thenI think it's always a good idea
to write it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Beautiful.
So if I'm going to add adifferent perspective or opinion
or experience, then do it, butif I'm just going to tell the
story with different colors,don't.
Yeah, got it Okay, cool.
Well, one of my favorite piecesof guidance for students who
are going into graduate programsare to contact faculty and
current students, and evenrecent graduates as well, to get
(22:04):
you know the feel of theexperience.
What about you If I want to goto law school?
Is that something I should bedoing or is that something I
shouldn't be doing?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yes, always.
It's always a good idea to talkto folks who have gone through
the process or in doing the worknow, because they can really
talk about their personalexperience and what tips and
strategies maybe what theylearned from their mistakes that
they can tell you so you canavoid the same mistakes.
So I would say it's always agood idea to talk to folks who
(22:33):
have gone through the process.
Love it With.
That said, you could also askfor recommendation letters in
those conversations.
So if you're talking tosomebody like a professor who
you have a good connection with,right, that professor could
speak to your strengths as astudent.
Or if you're talking to, let'ssay, you did an internship and
(22:57):
the supervisor of thatinternship can really talk about
your professionalism and whatyou've learned in that
experience and how you've grown.
These are great folks to ask forrecommendation letters.
And, on that note, you need twoto three recommendation letters
for law school, but I alwaysrecommend having three.
But you want to follow theprecise directions of the law
(23:20):
program.
So if the program says two,only upload two, but have three,
because some will ask for three.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I love that, I will say too.
But have three, because somewill ask for three, I love that
I will say too.
Don't overthink yourrecommenders Just because I
encounter students all the timewho are like yeah but this has
nothing to do with that programor my experience or my
internship or my research or myjob has nothing to do with that,
and it's so interesting to methe way I see students who get
(23:48):
so in their head and theydiscount all of their lived
experience, and I'm like that'samazing.
Though, if you, for example,were a transfer student and
you're thinking about law school, yes, you can ask your
community college professor towrite you one, because they've
seen your growth from communitycollege student to now
university student, to nowpotential law student as well.
So don't discredit yourexperiences because they're not
(24:10):
directly related.
Think about the amazing skillsets, the professional growth
that people can speak upon too,so know that your experiences
are valid.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh yeah, 100%.
I do get that question toooften of like, oh, does it have
to be a professor who was in mymajor or does it have to be a
professor from university?
And, like the community,college professors don't count.
They absolutely count because,for all the same reasons that
you just mentioned so anybody, Iwill say law schools do prefer
(24:40):
academic letters.
So if you are going to do oneprofessional letter from an
internship or job site, that'sokay, but make sure the other
two are academic letters.
So faculty from any point inyour academic journey, as well
as any subject that they'vetaught that none of that matters
, as long as they could reallyspeak to your qualities
(25:01):
beautiful all right, armin a, Ihave three rapid-fire questions
for you as we're ending.
I'm nervous.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
are you ready for these?
Yes, all right.
Should I be submitting a resumeor a CV?
The resume questions for you aswe're ending.
I'm nervous.
Are you ready for these?
Yes, all right.
Should I be submitting a resumeor a CV?
A resume Should I submit myapplication as soon as it opens?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, Law schools are on a rolling admissions basis.
This is actually somethingdifferent from other graduate
programs.
They do not wait untilapplications close to review and
accept people.
So when applications open inSeptember that's why we
recommend having them submityour applications at least by
the end of November, even thoughapplications will be open
(25:39):
through, like February or Marchfor most schools.
But if you wait till the end,you're up against a lot more
competition and a lot of peoplehave already been admitted up
until that time.
So the earlier you submit, thehigher chances you have of
getting in.
And on a side note to that, lawschools have an early decision
program.
An early decision program is aseparate way of applying.
(26:03):
I mean, you still do those sameexact application process, but
you apply through early decision, which means you're doing a
binding contract with thisinstitution.
If they accept you, you arelegally bound to go to that
school and you have to revokeyour applications from other
programs.
And the benefit to that theearly decision is that your
(26:24):
chances are slightly higher ofbeing admitted because you're
already in contract with them.
And so I always say, if you'redeciding on early decision, if
you don't meet something like aGPA score or an LSAT score is
maybe slightly lower than theirrange, but it's your dream
school.
Early decision is a good optionin those cases and also it's a
(26:47):
good option because it helpswith like their scholarship
components to early decision andso forth.
So think about early decisionfor programs that you really,
really want to go to and maybe,if you're not sure if you meet
their criteria.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Love it.
Which leads me to my last rapidfire question how many programs
should I be applying?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
to no magic number, but seven to eight is like a
common number for any kind ofgraduate programs.
You could apply to 15 if youwant, but I would say that that
starts to become like morequantity than quality.
You want your applications tobe quality and, with that said,
(27:27):
identify your REIT schools andyour backup schools, and that
way usually I see somewhere likeslightly less than 10
applications.
Once people start to reallyanalyze location, finances and
what programs they're actuallygenuinely interested in, as
opposed to just applying to allthe law schools to see which one
(27:47):
they get into, that's not thebest strategy.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
All right.
Well, you heard it here firstfrom our very own Armanay, our
pre-law advisor.
Armanay, thank you for puttingon your pre-law hat today.
I appreciate you answering allmy questions and we will hear.
We will be with.
We will talk to our listenersnext time.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I do want to say, though, for anybody who is
applying to law schools or anygraduate program you can come
work with either MJ through MJCareer Confidence or myself
through Career Rise, for helpwith personal statements,
optional essays and your resume.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Absolutely, and as any good attorney, we have to
have a closing statement.
So we will see you all nexttime.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Meeting adjourned Bye .
Hola, hola, bienvenidos.
Hi, arminé, Hello, how are youGood?
How are you?
I'm good, I'm excited for thisepisode.
I'm ready to learn.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Oh yes, I'm excited too.
What are we doing?
Tell me what are we doing.
We're talking about law school.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
This is a specialty episode for all of you out there
.
Arminé is feeling in the lawschool mode.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yes, and I will tell you why.
Law school applications areopening up soon in a couple of
weeks and the majority of myappointments at UCLA have been
about law school Ever since Ireturned from maternity leave.
Literally, I would say 90% ofmy appointments are about
pre-law.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I love it.
I love it because it's alsobeen a topic that I've been
researching myself, just becausea lot of students, when they
can't book an appointment withthe amazing Armanay I get those
questions sometimes too.
I think, subconsciously, though, we also have a really good
friend who's doing jury dutyright now.
Yes, so that's where this isprobably coming from too, but I
love it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So that's where this is probably coming from too, but
I love it.
Yes, that is so true.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You guys, one of our friends.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Who's listening?
Yes, most likely will belistening at some point.
We won't name names.
You know who you are.
They are on jury duty and it'sa long ass process.
Dude, we won't even see thisperson until they're, like, done
with jury duty.
Basically, it's like next year,yeah, so we're upset with the
court, the us supreme court,because we can't see our friend,
(01:33):
but anyway, um, they are onjury duty and this is something
that's been kind of in ourconversations, I think, lately.
Right, just talking about thelaw and how the system works,
and then, on top of that, thestudent appointments and law
school applications opening upsoon, so we felt inspired to
talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I absolutely love it.
I think it's also good, though,because if you maybe this
doesn't necessarily relate toyou, but if you know someone
who's interested in the lawschool process, you can always
share this episode with them, oreven tell them something you
learned in this episode too.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, please, please share widely with anyone who is
considering law school if it'sstill just a thought in their
mind and they're not sure ifthat's the path they want to
take, or if they already have anidea and they're committed to
it but they don't know where tostart or the timeline and
everything.
We can address all of those inthis episode and please share
(02:29):
widely.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Absolutely.
Or you could just refer them toMs Armanay herself and she can
give thema counseling sessionabout how to apply to law school
and if law school is even rightfor them.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, I would love to.
I love talking about law schooland working with pre-law folks,
so through Career Rise I alsocan support people who are in
this process, either deciding onit or going through personal
statements, resumes and theapplication process for law
school.
I'm happy to support folks inthat process Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right, Armanay.
Well, let's talk a little bitabout this process, because law
school, I don't know.
Is it different than regularold grad school?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Great question.
It is so not different.
I will say, though I think thatin general society, we put law
school on a pedestal and wethink it's this big scary thing
when we're applying to it, andin reality it's a graduate
program.
It is not much different fromother graduate programs.
(03:35):
It may be slightly morecompetitive, but there are also
many, many competitive graduateprograms out there.
So the reality is it's notdifferent in terms of the
application process or in termsof how you're going to be
feeling as a law student.
It's going to be super busy andintense, just like most other
graduate programs.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, some of the main things that I hear is that
it's a pre-professional programright.
And if you are applying to apre-professional program, what
does that mean versus a?
When we say regular graduateprogram or graduate program,
we're talking about a master'sdegree or a PhD or a different
type of doctorate right.
When it's a pre-professionalprogram, like an MBA, a master's
(04:16):
in business administration, alaw school right.
So getting a JD, all thesedifferent things, or an MD or
any pre-health graduate program,they're leading you to a
specific career.
Right.
You go to dental school, dentalgraduate school, to become a
dentist.
You go to medical school tobecome an MD, a doctor, go to
law school to become an attorneyright, and within the legal
(04:38):
court.
So know that a pre-professionalprogram is leading you towards
a specific path and career,whereas a graduate program could
lead you, like our master's incounseling could really take us
anywhere.
It doesn't always have to becounseling itself.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yes, that is a big difference between
pre-professional programs andgenerally other graduate
programs.
And another difference is thatthese pre-professional programs
like MBA, JD, MD, those are likethe highest level degree you
could get within that industry,equivalent to a PhD in other
industries.
(05:12):
So that's another way to thinkabout it is you're getting the
highest level degree.
That is also why law schoolsare very intense and competitive
.
But if it is something that youare passionate about, something
that you really want to do,it's worth it.
And usually for any kind ofgrad program, regardless of how
(05:32):
intense it is, if it's alignedwith your passions, then it is
going to still feel very naturaland you're still going to enjoy
the process, as difficult as itmay be.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what does this process looklike?
How do I do it if I want toapply to law school this year?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yes.
So in terms of applying to lawschool, that process you
probably won't enjoy I don'tthink anyone enjoys applying to
a program but the end result isgreat.
So, with that said, the processis it takes quite a bit of time
.
I would say it takes about ayear in advance.
So, thinking about the year youwant to start law school, that
(06:12):
the year previous to that isyour application year.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Ok, OK, so if I want to go next fall, I got to apply
now.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, and starting the whole calendar year let's say
we're in 2024 right now fromJanuary 2024 to essentially
November or December 24 is yourapplication year, gotcha.
So that whole year you shouldbe focusing on your applications
and we're going to dig intowhat that actually means.
But your applications open upin September.
(06:41):
So in September theapplications open up in
September.
So in September theapplications open up.
You want to have yourapplications done by the end of
November, the latest.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Okay, and where do I go?
How do I do this?
Am I using a portal?
Am I going to the specificschool?
Do I just Google?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
it?
Yes, great question.
You are using a portal and theportal is called LSAC.
This is essentially the hub forall things law school.
It's a law school admissionscouncil website and you would
need to create an account onthere.
When the applications open up,they're going to open up on that
(07:21):
website.
You log in with your accountand you essentially go through
the application process and youwould select the law schools
that you're applying to throughthis portal and each law school
will kind of have its ownnuances of certain personal
statement prompts or certaindifferences in certain questions
that they ask, but a lot of thematerials are going to be the
(07:44):
same for most law schools.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Awesome, and this is the one portal I'm going to use
to submit all the applicationsto each school.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yes, including your recommendation letters, your
transcripts from undergrad.
All materials will be uploadedto this portal.
There is a specific paidservice through LSAC that's
called the Credential AssemblyService, which is CAS.
If you pay for the CAS service,you are able to upload your
(08:17):
transcripts and your letters ofrec on there, and it is highly
recommended because if you'redoing your letters of rec
through CAS, it will send aletter, you will put the
information of your recommenderinto CAS and then it will send
them an email with the link toupload the letter.
So it simplifies the process.
If you don't use the CASservice, you would have to get
(08:39):
letters mailed to the school,which is possible.
Yeah, you can do that to theschool, which is possible.
Yeah, you can do that.
But in my work I've always seenfolks use Cal State, but it is
a paid service, but it's notrequired.
It is not required.
The law schools will give theoption to have a letter be
mailed to them.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Okay, so it sounds like I have to have an
application form filled outreferences or recommendations
and something else.
I've been hearing Armanay well,for graduate programs it's
usually familiar that you'resupposed to take the GRE or the
General Requirements exam.
For law school.
I know it's the LSAT.
Do I have to take the LSAT?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, you do have to take the LSAT.
Something to say about thesegraduate exams in general.
There's a lot of uptake in theeducation industry about not
requiring exams anymore.
The same thing happened withundergrad with the SATs.
So the UC systems actuallyabandoned the SATs anymore, and
(09:45):
the reason for that is becausethere is a lot of research
happening about showing thatthese exams don't necessarily
predict student success ingraduate programs or in
education programs in general.
So, for example, the SATs wereabandoned for undergrad and then
now graduate programs are alsoreviewing whether they want to
require exams.
A lot of graduate programs haveremoved the GRE.
Law schools have been in talksabout removing the LSAT, but it
(10:11):
hasn't come to the point wherethey've officially removed the
requirement.
What I've seen a lot is a lotof programs will say you could
take the GRE instead to replacethe LSAT, because the LSAT is a
more specialized exam, the GREis general.
People might have a preferenceto take the GRE instead, but I
haven't seen any law programsthat have said like you don't
(10:33):
need to take an exam at all.
That might happen in theupcoming years, because these
conversations were happeningrecently, but for the time being
they're requiring either LSATor GRE still preferably the LSAT
though.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay, and I know um a lot of people, when they're
taking these exams, they like toknow a number.
So what is my score?
What should I be getting on theLSAT?
What should I be aiming for?
I guess, that's my question.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
The highest score you can get on the LSAT is 180.
And most folks are aiming for170 range or like maybe high
160s.
So to give a range I would saylike 165 to 175 might be a
realistic range.
Uh, the highest I've seen in uhthe students I've worked with
(11:20):
has been probably like 171 or so.
And then usually I tend to seefolks in the 160s range and
people who score in like 150s.
They usually are wanting toretake the exam so that they
could get a higher score.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Okay, and let's say I'm studying for this exam.
What's your number one tip forme?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Ooh, that's a great question.
My number one tip is to startearly.
Don't wait until that last twomonths before your exam.
So if you know you want tostart law school at a certain
time and the year before that isyour application year, you're
going to want to take the LSAT,probably in the summer of your
(12:06):
application year.
So if you start the year beforethat, then you have a whole
year of studying until you takethe exam, and so this kind of
actually means that you have todecide on law school and then
have another, like maybe atleast one year or maybe two
years, so that you could prepand really take the time to
(12:28):
study for the LSAT.
There are prep programs for theLSAT that are usually paid, and
so some popular ones areBlueprint or Sage Academy.
Khan Academy has it too.
I've heard good things aboutBlueprint from my students, but
those are all paid and they havedifferent versions, like an
independent study version, groupclasses, live classes, and they
(12:51):
also have tutoring wow yeah,and each one has its own price
range, so you would have to kindof see what works best for you.
I always recommend my studentsto think about how they study
best.
Okay, so if you're anindependent learner versus, if
you need, if you actually preferthe classroom settings that the
group setting might work bestfor you, but it might be good to
(13:12):
start off independent in thevery beginning.
If you start early enough, youcould do that and get familiar
with the content.
There's practice tests on theLSAT website and there's a lot
of information on the LSATwebsite separately for the LSAT
exam.
What a lot of people do, too,is take a diagnostic test at
first, which is a practice testwithout any studying, to see
(13:36):
where they land, and then, ofcourse, as they study, they're
taking more practice tests tosee how their score improves.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Wow, you're making me want to take a practice test,
and I'm not even planning ongoing to law school.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Let's do it.
Yeah, it is interesting to seeyou know your progress, and so I
would say first take thediagnostic, start studying early
and try different study methodsto see which one works best for
you.
Those would be my main tips.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Quick question, though.
Let's say I don't like my score.
I got a 157 and I took it inJune of my application year,
right?
I'm applying, let's say, thisyear, and I took it two months
ago.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Can.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I take it again in September and resubmit my score.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, you can.
You can take the LSAT exammultiple times and it is usually
offered through November.
So if you take it, let's say,in June, then there's like an
August date, september, october,november dates, so you could
repeat it multiple times.
Some law schools will take thehigher score and some will
(14:43):
average it out, kind of depends.
Yeah, you also have the optionto preview your score and then
cancel it out so that lawschools don't see it.
Oh dang.
Yes, that is a paid service.
When you sign up for the LSAT,you can opt in for that service,
and so scores usually come outabout two weeks or so after you
(15:05):
take the exam.
You are able to preview it andif you don't like your score and
you don't want it to bereported, you can remove it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's crazy.
Would you recommend students orpeople applying to law school
do that?
Is there any like repercussionsif we choose to?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
There isn't.
It just it's not in your recordanywhere.
I actually say to a lot oftimes students will ask the
other side of that is oh, if Ishow multiple scores, is there a
repercussion?
There isn't, especially ifyou're improving your score.
Or is there a repercussion?
There isn't, especially ifyou're improving your score.
Ultimately, they're going tosee that you've worked hard and
studied and improved your scoreright.
So that's the goal, because Ithink I always have to clarify
(15:42):
to people I'm working with thatlaw school admissions
representatives are also humanand they don't expect you to be
a perfect robot.
We're not AI machines rightWalking around.
We're human beings.
You might have a low grade hereand there.
Every once in a while in yourtranscript you might have a low
score that you had to retake theexam for.
(16:03):
You're a human being, sothey're looking more about your
qualities and characteristicsand if you are able to increase
your score, you're telling themthat you put in the work to do
that right.
So that's actually a goodquality.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
of course, if you get a high score from the beginning
, that's even better foreveryone, but then nobody
expects you to be perfect andit's okay if you need to retake
it or resubmit things I lovethat you bring out or you
acknowledge the human side tothese things, because a lot of
time we put a lot of pressure onourselves to do something
correctly or get in a certainprogram or school or whatever.
(16:40):
So have you.
So I appreciate that you remindour audience that there's a
human side to this Right.
It's not only you coming in asa human being with what you have
to offer, but also the peopleevaluating you, as tough as it
may seem, offer, but also thepeople evaluating you, as tough
as it may seem.
Which leads me to my nextquestion.
And one of my favorite parts ofthe graduate school process,
which is the statements that youwrite, and we all know well,
(17:01):
you're about to know that forlaw school, you're submitting a
personal statement.
So, Armanay, what goes in apersonal statement?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Great, great question .
So personal statement isessentially a summary of your, I
should say, identity, yourcharacteristics, things that you
want to highlight to anadmissions committee and, a lot
of times, really good statements.
I actually read a really reallygreat statement just recently
(17:27):
she did.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
She was so excited she came to my office.
It was the the cutest thingever.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, I love that that statement was really well
done, because I think what madeit well done was that there was
the personal story.
That then transitioned into therelevant experiences, that
transitioned into why thisperson wants to go to law school
, and those are components thatyou want your story to embed.
(17:53):
But usually it could beanything from challenges you
faced People talk aboutchallenges from childhood,
growing up, or challenges whilethey were a student in college
family dynamics, legal issues,especially applying to law
school.
I do see a lot of times peopletalking about, maybe, legal
issues their family had and howthat's made them want to go into
(18:16):
law.
That people have talked abouthealthcare issues and that's
made them want to go into law.
So it's whatever challenges youmight have faced, whatever
moment you realized you wantedto go into law and your
curiosity sparked, whatevercharacteristics like leadership
qualities or resilience thosekinds of characteristics you
(18:37):
want to highlight.
Your story can revolve aroundthose things, but then it's not
just talking about your story.
Right, I would say that'sprobably the first one third of
your statement.
The next piece does need to gointo experiences or skill sets
that you want to highlight.
So if you've done internshipsor jobs or so that are relevant,
(18:57):
and then finishing it off withthe future tone, because you
don't want the whole statementto be past.
The tone shouldn't be focusedon your past.
It should also finish with thefuture.
So this is what I'm lookingforward to.
All these things made me who Iam today, which makes me a good
candidate for law school.
That's the question you'reanswering.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I love that.
I love that because it goesbeyond what they see on our
transcripts, what they see onour resume, what they see
through our references andrecommendations as well.
Your personal statement isreally your story to this
admissions committee, sayinglike this is what.
These are my lived experiences.
These are things that I haveencountered, I've overcome, I've
(19:37):
achieved and this is why thisis the amazingness that I'm
going to contribute to thisprogram and this is how this
degree, this program, can helpme achieve my goals as well.
So this is honestly one of myfavorite parts.
Funny fun fact I was startingto think about mine last week um
for for doctoral program whichis kind of crazy.
So I love personal statementsthey.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I do.
You know I've.
There are so many times I'vegotten emotional reading my
students personal statements.
You really get into the storyand you really start to like get
to know folks from theirstatement absolutely so it is a
really personal process andapplication and I love it too.
It's my favorite because it isbeyond the scores and the
transcripts and all of that.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah Well, armanet, I know through you, because you
are all things law here, thatthere are also optional essays.
So, for those of us who arethinking about applying to law
school, do I complete them, do Inot?
Not?
What do I add?
Do I do all of them?
Tell me about these optionalessays?
What do I do with them?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
yeah, optional essays are, in fact, optional.
Uh, one rule of thumb Irecommend people to think about
is depending on the prompt,which usually the prompts
revolve around either adiversity statement or address
why you want to go to thisparticular law school.
Those tend to be the morecommon optional statements, but
(20:59):
there might be some otherstatements too, depending on the
law school.
Whatever statement they'reasking in the prompt, think
about if you've addressed thatin your personal statement
already.
That's a good way to thinkabout.
Like, if I answer this optionalessay, am I adding more context
for the admissions committee?
If it's gonna be kind ofrepetitive to your statement,
(21:22):
then it's probably not necessary.
Sometimes it'll be like mystudents will say oh, I
mentioned let's say theymentioned the challenge or
something they talked about intheir statement, but I could
elaborate more because of theoptional essay prompt.
Should I write it Then?
Yes, if you can add more, thenI think it's always a good idea
to write it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Beautiful.
So if I'm going to add adifferent perspective or opinion
or experience, then do it, butif I'm just going to tell the
story with different colors,don't.
Yeah, got it Okay, cool.
Well, one of my favorite piecesof guidance for students who
are going into graduate programsare to contact faculty and
current students, and evenrecent graduates as well, to get
(22:04):
you know the feel of theexperience.
What about you If I want to goto law school?
Is that something I should bedoing or is that something I
shouldn't be doing?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yes, always.
It's always a good idea to talkto folks who have gone through
the process or in doing the worknow, because they can really
talk about their personalexperience and what tips and
strategies maybe what theylearned from their mistakes that
they can tell you so you canavoid the same mistakes.
So I would say it's always agood idea to talk to folks who
(22:33):
have gone through the process.
Love it With.
That said, you could also askfor recommendation letters in
those conversations.
So if you're talking tosomebody like a professor who
you have a good connection with,right, that professor could
speak to your strengths as astudent.
Or if you're talking to, let'ssay, you did an internship and
(22:57):
the supervisor of thatinternship can really talk about
your professionalism and whatyou've learned in that
experience and how you've grown.
These are great folks to ask forrecommendation letters.
And, on that note, you need twoto three recommendation letters
for law school, but I alwaysrecommend having three.
But you want to follow theprecise directions of the law
(23:20):
program.
So if the program says two,only upload two, but have three,
because some will ask for three.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I love that, I will say too.
But have three, because somewill ask for three, I love that
I will say too.
Don't overthink yourrecommenders Just because I
encounter students all the timewho are like yeah but this has
nothing to do with that programor my experience or my
internship or my research or myjob has nothing to do with that,
and it's so interesting to methe way I see students who get
(23:48):
so in their head and theydiscount all of their lived
experience, and I'm like that'samazing.
Though, if you, for example,were a transfer student and
you're thinking about law school, yes, you can ask your
community college professor towrite you one, because they've
seen your growth from communitycollege student to now
university student, to nowpotential law student as well.
So don't discredit yourexperiences because they're not
(24:10):
directly related.
Think about the amazing skillsets, the professional growth
that people can speak upon too,so know that your experiences
are valid.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Oh yeah, 100%.
I do get that question toooften of like, oh, does it have
to be a professor who was in mymajor or does it have to be a
professor from university?
And, like the community,college professors don't count.
They absolutely count because,for all the same reasons that
you just mentioned so anybody, Iwill say law schools do prefer
(24:40):
academic letters.
So if you are going to do oneprofessional letter from an
internship or job site, that'sokay, but make sure the other
two are academic letters.
So faculty from any point inyour academic journey, as well
as any subject that they'vetaught that none of that matters
, as long as they could reallyspeak to your qualities
(25:01):
beautiful all right, armin a, Ihave three rapid-fire questions
for you as we're ending.
I'm nervous.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
are you ready for these?
Yes, all right.
Should I be submitting a resumeor a CV?
The resume questions for you aswe're ending.
I'm nervous.
Are you ready for these?
Yes, all right.
Should I be submitting a resumeor a CV?
A resume Should I submit myapplication as soon as it opens?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, Law schools are on a rolling admissions basis.
This is actually somethingdifferent from other graduate
programs.
They do not wait untilapplications close to review and
accept people.
So when applications open inSeptember that's why we
recommend having them submityour applications at least by
the end of November, even thoughapplications will be open
(25:39):
through, like February or Marchfor most schools.
But if you wait till the end,you're up against a lot more
competition and a lot of peoplehave already been admitted up
until that time.
So the earlier you submit, thehigher chances you have of
getting in.
And on a side note to that, lawschools have an early decision
program.
An early decision program is aseparate way of applying.
(26:03):
I mean, you still do those sameexact application process, but
you apply through early decision, which means you're doing a
binding contract with thisinstitution.
If they accept you, you arelegally bound to go to that
school and you have to revokeyour applications from other
programs.
And the benefit to that theearly decision is that your
(26:24):
chances are slightly higher ofbeing admitted because you're
already in contract with them.
And so I always say, if you'redeciding on early decision, if
you don't meet something like aGPA score or an LSAT score is
maybe slightly lower than theirrange, but it's your dream
school.
Early decision is a good optionin those cases and also it's a
(26:47):
good option because it helpswith like their scholarship
components to early decision andso forth.
So think about early decisionfor programs that you really,
really want to go to and maybe,if you're not sure if you meet
their criteria.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Love it.
Which leads me to my last rapidfire question how many programs
should I be applying?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
to no magic number, but seven to eight is like a
common number for any kind ofgraduate programs.
You could apply to 15 if youwant, but I would say that that
starts to become like morequantity than quality.
You want your applications tobe quality and, with that said,
(27:27):
identify your REIT schools andyour backup schools, and that
way usually I see somewhere likeslightly less than 10
applications.
Once people start to reallyanalyze location, finances and
what programs they're actuallygenuinely interested in, as
opposed to just applying to allthe law schools to see which one
(27:47):
they get into, that's not thebest strategy.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
All right.
Well, you heard it here firstfrom our very own Armanay, our
pre-law advisor.
Armanay, thank you for puttingon your pre-law hat today.
I appreciate you answering allmy questions and we will hear.
We will be with.
We will talk to our listenersnext time.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I do want to say, though, for anybody who is
applying to law schools or anygraduate program you can come
work with either MJ through MJCareer Confidence or myself
through Career Rise, for helpwith personal statements,
optional essays and your resume.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Absolutely, and as any good attorney, we have to
have a closing statement.
So we will see you all nexttime.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Meeting adjourned Bye .
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