December 23, 2025 • 43 mins
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We question the promise of success and the cost of chasing “the best,” asking what remains when titles, praise, and roles change. We share personal stories of reinvention, explore ego’s grip on identity, and offer a practical shift from comparison to curiosity.
• defining identity beyond labels and roles
• how “best” and perfection trap attention outside the self
• success as a cage built from praise and habit
• ego’s need to cling and the pain of letting go
• choosing identity moment to moment through preference
• replacing comparison with curiosity and creativity
• navigating retirement, career shifts, and loss of status
• building meaning that does not depend on scarcity
We hope this helps a little as you go through your day.
We would love to hear your feedback or questions.
We will respond to both in future episodes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:07):
We are the line.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
First hint of daylight.
It was dark this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Dark.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
But it's getting lighter.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Yeah, it's isn't it funny the things we tell
ourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Right?
I think we get about four and ahalf minutes each day.
I think it's about that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
You do?
Yeah.
Is that based on your meteorologmeteorological acumen?
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
My one class from university.
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
Success is a dangerous thing.
Yeah, that's what we thoughtwe'd talk about today.
You know, one of the things thatI struggle with and have been
working on lately, and I won'tsay successfully, I'll just say
working on lately, is identity,you know, who I am and what does
(01:02):
that mean?
And can, you know, can you evenput it in a label?
What does identity mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I think identity means to me a self that I
resonate with, whether that's adeep attachment or something
that's malleable.
Yeah, identity is part of youknow how I think, how I act
(01:28):
around people, how I dress, howyou know my work.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Is that your identity, or is that how do you
express what you perceive asyour identity?
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
That's how I express how I perceive my identity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
So if you had to, I I think of identity and I think
of definitions.
I think of descriptions, I thinkof beliefs.
If you had to define yourself,right?
It's easy for me to define mycoffee mug.
But I would define it indimensions, I would define it in
(02:06):
capacity, yeah.
I would define it in shape.
And for the coffee mug, thoseare permanent.
But none of those things arepermanent for human beings.
I mean, really, what ispermanent for a human being?
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah.
No, I think we're always influx.
I think we're always changing,hopefully.
I think identity, what comes tomy mind is as a human, you have
to build it up in order to tearit down.
Right?
We need you you need to know thecontrast of what you all life is
all about contrast.
(02:39):
And I think for anything inlife, you have to go through it
to know what you don't want orwhat you do want, right?
But the opposite of that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Preferences and contrasts.
The things I think I prefer tillI experience them, and then the
contrast tells me, yeah, not somuch.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In the chat, we've got, I'vebeen working on expanding my
identity, letting my sense ofself be bigger than what I have
thought for most of my life.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
So is identity a self-defined thing?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
You mean do we define it in ourselves or do
others define it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Yeah, well, to say, you know, to say I'm trying to
expand it is to suggest that Iam aware of it.
And it was too small.
It wasn't, it wasn't satisfyingme.
Which again, like, you know, forme, it's what are the terms?
What are the terms under whichwe are defining this?
What are the terms under whichwe're describing this?
(03:43):
To what extent is this a belief?
Right?
It's, you know, like I so whatbrings this on was the other day
I was, I was, I like to haveexperiments with my mind.
I like to play with my mind.
I like to question the stuff.
I like to question anything Ithink is real and ask where does
(04:04):
that sense of realness comefrom?
And so I was doing some writingand I wrote down a list of
questions, and I played withthem for a while.
So here's the list.
I found a piece of paper.
Now, if I was going to describewho I am, and I use the word who
as my unique self, what I am,you know, there's lots of things
(04:29):
that are common to everybodyelse.
You know, I could say I'm a man,right?
And although it there's somespectrum there a little bit, but
it's still like everybody's gotone of these things.
I can I can ask myself, youknow, how tall I am, what my
racial background is, whatlanguage I speak.
(04:50):
These are all things I candescribe about myself, but
they're not really who I am.
They're things I do, and theycan change.
And if it can change, then it'snot who you are.
It's a description of how youare being presently.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Presently, yeah.
That's that's a good it it sortof reminds me.
I I remember I have a vaguememory of this.
When you either move as a kid oryou change schools, or you go
from public school to highschool, or from high school to
college or university, there'sthis exciting moment.
(05:32):
I don't know, I I used to gothrough this of deciding like
who do I want to be, right?
And so if you had known me inhigh school, I was I was this
transient, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but like
I was goth uh for a little bit.
(05:54):
I emu or emo emo didn't existback then, but I was I was never
a jock or cool, you know, partof the cool crap.
But I was this sort of floaterthat went through different
groups, and I guess maybe tryingto find who I was, but honestly,
(06:19):
when I think back, mainly I I Ijust had good friends in those
groups, so it did it wasn't likeI need to be goth or or I need
to be nerd or gamer or you know,all these people, all these
groups that I sort of flowedthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
So is my identity something that I can create?
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
I think so, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
So I can change it?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
So my identity isn't even permanent.
Is my identity ever anythingmore than a belief in my head
and a set of practices Iassociate with it?
Yeah, I think sorry I gotta goclean my glasses before I can
see you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Um I I think that identity can be shifted.
I think it can it doesn't haveto be static.
I do believe that we cling toidentity maybe too much
sometimes, but that's to eachtheir own, right?
(07:22):
And I do believe that it issomething that that can
absolutely change if you want tomake changes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
So the exercise I did was if I could not use any
kind of dimensions, if Icouldn't use any kind of
descriptions, if I couldn't useage, if I couldn't use careers
and jobs or occupations, if Icouldn't use belongings or
hobbies or practices, thingsthat I do.
(07:55):
Yeah, how would I describe who Iam?
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Blob.
No, spirit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
All of these things are things that are either,
well, everything's chosen, butmost of these things are chosen,
sometimes chosen for us.
And I'll come back to thatquestion I answered before we
started in a minute, but theseare all changeable, right?
I can change my weight, I mightnot be able to change my height,
but in today's world, I canchange my eye color, I can
(08:28):
change my hair color, I canchange my style, right?
I can't really change my age perse, but boy, oh boy, I just
spent two and a half years atthe gym and I feel like 10 years
younger.
And and everybody tells me Ilook younger.
So I think that there's my ageis something that I can embrace
(08:49):
or not embrace.
I've had so many differentoccupations.
And that's one of the things I'mI'm actually part of my
identity, I suppose, that I'mreally proud of is that I've
made changes, that I'vedeliberately said, enough of
this.
This doesn't make me happy, I'mnot doing it anymore.
In spite of, you know, successor failure.
(09:10):
We'll come back to thatquestion.
You know, the question I'mtalking about.
My hobbies have changed over andover and over, right?
And I find myself doing things,you know, uh during different
eras of my life.
And my practices in terms ofgetting up and and being myself
(09:32):
have definitely changed andoften are defined by where I am
more than what I might say who Iam.
Right?
These are all things that justchange.
But these are the things ifsomebody said, you know, who are
you?
Well, hi, I'm Les.
I am a professor at a college, Iteach business, yeah, I teach
(09:54):
law, I teach sustainability, wasa description, it included
occupation and practices andthings like that, that I was
really I kind of liked.
It felt good, it feed my my ego,right?
Yeah, my need to feel like Iserve a purpose in the world,
(10:16):
that I have value, that I'mdoing something meaningful, that
I'm engaged as a person who isright, all of those things.
And it was an identity that Iconstructed for myself during a
period of time in my life thatit reached a point where I
didn't like it anymore.
(10:37):
I didn't, I didn't want tocontinue in that environment.
But that was my identity, and Iand it was mostly in my mind
because anybody who met me,right, for the first time,
unless I told them that, theyhad no idea.
And today, when I meet newpeople, I fall back to those
kinds of descriptions thataren't even true anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
I talk about who I was, I talk about what I was, I
talk about my level of success,right?
I I pick and choose the thingsin my past that sound, I think
sound to others good.
And that's what I present.
Right.
I would never say, oh, yeah, Iwas the guy who yelled at his
(11:21):
kids.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
Like that's not that's not something I want to
include.
You know, I'm divorced.
That's not something I want totalk about.
Very much still a part of mypast, part of my experience, but
not who I would have thought andsaid I was.
And so for me, like you and I,we we we come to a quick answer
(11:44):
from that question.
But if tomorrow you changed youroccupation, if tomorrow you
decided to go to the gym or stopgoing to the gym so that your
shape would change, if you wereto decide to engage all new
things in an all new place, whatis the part of you that is you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
You're asking me?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Absolutely, there's nobody else here, but I'm asking
everybody who's listening.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
As the sun is starting to show itself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:14):
Yeah.
I think if I was to start over,if that's what you're asking.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
No.
Oh, I'm not asking who you are.
I'm not asking what you dodifferently.
Because I but that's where we'reheaded with that.
I that's I guess you know, I'mjumping ahead.
I'm jumping ahead to the ideathat if all of these things are
changeable and it's a functionof what I believe is possible,
(12:40):
yeah.
What stops me from being a newidentity?
Like right now.
I don't have to wait tilltomorrow or Monday or on the new
year or sometime at the end ofthe next month.
I could right now choose myidentity and live that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think I think uh I've definitely thought
that exact thing in the pastabout myself, about how you can
just make a decision to umchange.
The sticking to the change is isa little different, but yeah, I
agree with you that you can youcan just make a make a decision
moment to moment.
(13:23):
I think Joe Dispenza talks aboutthat too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
I I think it's possible, right?
But it sure doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
No.
I think it doesn't happenbecause we well, let's say our
ego says, well, no, I want totalk about my my past and who I
am now or who I think I am, or II want to feel that little tiny
blip of dopamine that says,yeah, I've made it, or I you
(13:53):
know I'm a I don't know if goodperson comes to mind in my mind,
but I'm I've made it or I'msuccessful, all those things
that we cling to in Westernculture.
And it's funny in the chat, Iwas I was actually gonna bring
this up, but I wasn't sure if itwas if I was remembering it
(14:15):
properly.
But in the chat here in NorthAmerica, when we are asked what
we do, we talk about ourcareers, but in Australia, when
they ask what do you do, theyare asking about what you do for
fun, for recreation, verydifferent focus on defining
ourselves in that society.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
But it's interesting that that's always the first
question.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah.
I mean, let's let's normalizesaying that we're infinite
beings of spiritual awareness.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
It's not a great, great conversation started
because that's what we all are.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
So I suppose so what's happening with you and
your infinite potential?
Yeah.
Well, that's like for me, it'salways about the mind and the
way mind creates what weperceive to be our reality.
Most of the time, that mind iscreating things that are based
(15:13):
in fear, and so they tend to benegative and critical, they tend
to be defining and limiting.
They they we tend to on a publicway try to focus on our
successes, and on a private way,we very much focus on our
failures and our negativeaspects.
(15:34):
We we dwell and ruminate on,yeah, some pretty pretty small
moments that have had bigimpacts.
Yeah.
It's just, you know, I'mthinking about, you know, I'm
thinking about my identity.
I'm thinking about how I seemyself and I encourage others to
do the same, right?
(15:54):
How much, you know, let's let'sgo to that question, you know,
like is it possible that successat a job or a hobby is actually
the worst thing that can happento you?
Is it possible that somebodypatting you on the back and
saying, good job, you're good atthis, and then you just keep
(16:15):
doing it?
Not because you love it, notbecause you're even at your best
when you're doing it, butbecause somebody else noticed
you now maybe pays you, maybetreats you like you're special
because of this success thatyou've had.
(16:37):
Yeah, this thing that everybodyelse values, right?
You you commit to and spend yourtime on beyond what you would
want to spend your time on, incontrast to that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Yeah.
I I do think that, like I saidbefore we started the podcast, I
do think that I'm not sure ifit's like the worst thing that
can happen to you, but it'scertainly not helpful in many
situations.
I I think, like I said in thebeginning, we sort of have to go
(17:17):
through it to know what we don'twant.
We need, as humans, we need thatcontrast.
You know, I really want thatcareer.
Ah, maybe I don't really wantthat career.
I really want that relationship.
Ah, maybe I don't really wantthat relationship.
And all these different thingswe need to experience in order
(17:38):
to know what the opposite is orsomething not like that.
So, you know, I I guess I'llI'll go into what I said I was I
was gonna talk about.
I went through school to be adesigner, and when I graduated,
I manifested the crap out of acertain job.
(18:04):
And I was doing like every kindof manifesting technique there
was to get this job because Ithought that's what I wanted.
If I could put that label nextto my name, you know, Hillary
Leehan something designer, Iwould you could say the thing
without saying the company.
Yeah.
Oh, so Hillary, like toydesigner.
(18:27):
That was really that felt good.
Also, if I could say that, thisis an interesting part of it
that off I often think about andwonder how it applies now if it
doesn't.
So before I could even callmyself a toy designer, it's like
I didn't allow myself to be fun.
(18:49):
I wanted my desk to be full ofsilly things.
You remember it after I got thejob.
I had the I had like littlelittle cars on it, little Legos,
little smushy things.
I don't even know, like tons oftons of silly stuff that made me
feel light and silly and fun,right?
(19:10):
And and so I ended up mangetting the job, and not much
longer later, a couple months,my soul was like, nope, this is
not, this is not what you'redoing.
And I ended up with I mean, allI can call it now is like this
neurological sleeping disorder.
(19:33):
And it sent me flat on my on myass.
I had to let go of everything.
I was working as a toy design,you know, an intern, basically
intern toy designer, an outdoorkitchen designer at the same
time.
And I had to, within like twoweeks of this sleeping issue, I
(19:56):
had to let go of my whole life.
And I was a Wreck.
So with all that being said, Ithink our ego can push us and
push us and push us to the brinkof, I mean, we hear it a lot,
the corporate story, right?
But like burnout and people justsaying like this wasn't, this
(20:20):
wasn't my path.
I climbed the ladder, I kickedother people off the ladder, you
know.
And it just wasn't wasn't forme.
So I thought I wanted that life.
My ego was constantly tellingme, you're gonna be the best
designer in the world, you'regonna be this, you're gonna be
that.
And it's funny how I went intoeverything like that, right?
(20:44):
Up until 2018.
I went into to every every umjob idea that I ever had, which
was a lot, guys.
I was gonna be like the best inthe world.
And so I had this incrediblydriven ego.
(21:06):
And the letting go of that lifewas hard.
There was a lot of forgivenessinvolved, a lot of like, why in
the hell did I go through thatmuch schooling, years of
schooling to get to have thisdisorder, sleeping disorder, and
(21:30):
then just totally change my lifeinto something else, you know?
So I think long story short, itit can it can put us in not
helpful situations, but if I'mto look back on it, I think I
have enough mind now or enough asort of i introspection, if
(21:54):
that's the word, to look at itand say, okay, yeah, I I sort of
understand that I wasn't maybeon the most helpful path for my
life, but again, I needed to gothrough that to know that I
didn't want that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
I'm I I want to observe something and I don't
want it in any way to soundcritical because I think it's
really, really normal.
I think it is broadly normal.
I think it's programmed into usfrom the instant we are
(22:32):
certainly in classrooms, but itwithin families, if there are
multiple children, right?
This idea of the best, right?
I think the best, that sort ofcomparison, that competition
that it creates, you know, whodid the best job, who got the
(22:53):
highest score on the test, who'sthe best, right?
Whose art is the best, right?
The best is something that'sreally programmed into us, and
we come about it reallyinnocently, right?
This is not, and and the goal,of course, is is sounds
(23:14):
wonderful, right?
Like why I need to strive.
I it's good for me, it's goodfor the world if I strive.
At least that's the program,right?
And I've worked with a couple ofclients on this, and the best to
me is kind of like the idea ofperfect.
(23:37):
It's unattainable, it's definedin really loose ethereal terms
that can't really fit any kindof constant definition in any
meaningful way.
We use the term like it'ssomething to aspire to.
It's perfect.
I want the perfect thing, I wantit to be perfect, I need this
(23:57):
and that in my life to beperfect, right?
And it it creates an illusorygoal that is completely
unattainable because it's athing within a constantly
changing background.
And as long as the background isconstantly changing, perfection
(24:18):
can't be attained.
And in the same way, if I'mgonna be the best, what I need
is for others to be worse.
If I'm gonna be the best, I'mnot really in control of that
because I can't control whatother people attain.
(24:38):
Yeah, and so I'm constantlystriving and comparing, and as a
result, I'm never actually inthe moment, and I'm never really
in touch with myself.
Yeah, it is while I'm trying tobe the best, right?
I am outwardly focused andseeking outward approval and
(25:03):
seeking outward reward.
Now it's a simple shift, right?
And it starts instead of acomparison outside yourself, but
it's decision of what youprefer, right?
What do I enjoy for me based onmy curiosity and my creativity?
(25:24):
What do I want for me withoutreference to the external world
and others?
And that then becomes I want tobe the best I can be.
I want to take myself to mylimits.
I want to do my best.
I want to go to my limits, and Iwant to push myself past them.
(25:47):
And whenever you see somebodytotally engrossed in something,
and it's easy to see kids withtheir video games this way,
right?
They're totally engrossed.
They're completely fascinated,they're completely pushing
themselves through theirmistakes.
They make a mistake, they go,ah, and they bark and they're
gonna figure this out.
(26:08):
And then they stay with it andthey push themselves, and they
push themselves, and theypractice and they try and they
keep going, right?
And when that is rewardingsomething internal in you,
something moving you, your owncreativity, your own curiosity,
(26:28):
the things that engage youwithout effort, and you're
pursuing them to their highest,to your highest potential,
right?
Then you're being your best.
And the instant you shift thatfocus to outside of you and
compare yourself to others,you're now in a never-ending
(26:50):
battle because the instant youmight think you're the best,
along comes somebody that'sbetter, right?
Better, at least in your mind.
And that creates dissatisfactionin your own personal pursuits.
So I think this happens reallyhonestly.
I think that we're all raisedthat way.
And it it expresses itself notjust in a single thing.
(27:11):
It's like I want to have thebest house, I want to have the
best bank account, I want to bethe best person, right?
And this is where I think someof our society is really lost
in, right?
When I think about how thewealthy are amassing money, not
for the purposes of the money,but for the purposes of saying I
(27:33):
have more than everybody else.
And that makes me a betterperson.
I am more successful in thissociety because I have more.
I have more notoriety, I havemore prestige, I'm working at
the best firm, at the bestcompany.
(27:53):
I am the best this.
And I think that that's that'skind of an eternal, internal
thing that sets us up, right?
Because then we marry ouridentity to this thing.
And, you know, I like to use theexample.
I, you know, I love baseball,and I think it's just this
(28:15):
beautiful metaphor for life.
And baseball players turn 40 andthey say, you know, I'm gonna
play this game till somebodytakes my uniform off my back.
In other words, I'm gonna playuntil somebody says you're no
good anymore.
And then they go through acrisis because this is what I
am.
This is what I've always been.
(28:37):
This is how I define myself.
I'm the best ball player thatcame from my hometown.
I'm the best ball player in mywhole circuit.
I'm the best ball player on myteam.
I'm the best ball player thatever lived.
And now I'm not a ball playerbecause my age and my body have
(28:57):
just simply reached a pointwhere I can't be better than
others anymore.
And then their identity isreally shaken.
People will strive for a careerof any kind, and they reach a
point where, you know, I am I amthe chosen one.
(29:17):
I work in this department, andeverybody looks to me.
I am the leader of mydepartment, I'm the leader of my
division, I'm the leader of myregion, I'm the leader of the
company, and I'm moving my wayup, and I have the most this and
the best that, and I'veaccomplished this.
And it becomes an identity, howsuccess can lead you to a place
(29:39):
where you have such a strongself-definition, and then that
changes.
And then you're left with, well,who am I then?
If I'm not doing this anymore,who am I?
And what if by chance, deepinside me, I've been led down a
path because I bought into theidea of being the best and
(30:00):
striving, and what other peopledefine as success, and what
other people define as a goodperson, and what other people
defined as a good man or a goodwoman.
I've been led by that down apath, and I find at the my place
on that path for the whole thingto be completely unrewarding,
(30:22):
the whole thing to be filledwith contradictions, the whole
thing to be filled with pain,the whole thing to be filled
with limitations.
It's now a box, it's now a cage,and I have to keep doing this.
I have to keep being that,right?
And it doesn't, you it doesn'tyou don't have to be somebody
(30:43):
who strives to be the best.
You can be just somebodystriving to be successful in our
society.
And I want to own my own home.
Like somehow that is a definingcharacteristic of success.
I want to have a career, likethat's a defining
characteristic.
These are all programs that wewe engage early, early, early in
(31:08):
our lives, and we don't questionthem ever again.
And we find they take us down apath that might be, you know,
emotionally and physicallypainful, so much so that we end
up with sleep issues or eatingissues or drinking issues or
smoking issues or drug issues orgambling issues, like all sex
(31:30):
issues, all these things that weseek to distract ourselves from
the pain of the life that wehonestly, with good intentions
and followed the program, triedto create for ourselves.
What I'm driving at is not to becritical of anybody's choices.
I'm not trying to be negative orbelittling because I believe
(31:55):
that this is a program that mostof us get programmed into.
And I believe most of us sufferbecause we can't be the best.
There's only ever one best in aroom full of 30 kids in a
classroom, there's only onebest.
And in a corporation of 500employees, there's only one
(32:20):
best.
And so you you find yourself ina world where being the best is
a virtual impossibility.
I I used to call it the lotteryticket, right?
You know, uh a corporation's gothiring 20 entry-level people
every year, and they come in,and only one of them or two of
(32:41):
them might make it to the nextlevel, and only one of them make
it to the level up.
And there's this steady flow ofnew people in, and corporations
call it up or out, and they meanit.
You're either moving up oryou're out, and only one is
going to be the best, whichmeans everyone else is dealing
with these ideas fromperspective of unattainment, and
(33:07):
which is what does it mean to bethe best?
And and it might become a senseof failure.
Yeah, it starts to become aself-definition, an identity
that we buy into a belief.
I'm sorry, yeah, your question.
SPEAKER_00 (33:23):
No, that's okay.
It was more of a like, what whatare we losing to be the best?
And and in what eyesity.
Well, yeah, and and in what eyesare we the best, right?
Like the best is so subjective.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Absolutely.
And and it's to me, it's likethe idea of perfect, yeah.
And it's so much outsideyourself.
It's it's a stupid idea thatdrives us.
It's an idea that we embraceearly on, very young, and then
we use it to define ourselveslater.
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
And this is where I think identity and ego can
become negative.
Identity and ego for those thathave six success in this chosen
path that they are measured byothers as better than most.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Right.
These people have their ownfailure, ultimate at the end of
the road, nothing lasts forever.
They have this ultimate end tothis nice string of successes.
Or early on, you don't get thesuccess.
You're not the best.
You don't think of yourself inthose terms, and you start to
(34:37):
think of yourself in otherterms.
And now your beliefs aboutyourself start to become: I
can't, I'm not good enough, I'mnot allowed, I'm not worthy, I'm
not talented enough, I'm notsmart enough, I'm not good
looking enough, I'm not enough.
All these things that I'm notenough of just start to get
(34:59):
shortened into I'm not enough.
Right.
And so for me, I I have a goalfor myself, which is to kick the
crap out of this idea ofidentity.
I want, I want rid of it.
I want rid of it for myself.
And for those reasons, and Ithink they're, you know,
personally self-love reasons, Iwant it for everyone else.
(35:24):
Now, for those out there thatare having success, that are
achieving what they want, whofeel like they're meant to be
doing what they're doing, right?
I'm gonna guess that there's anelement inside themselves of
creativity and curiosity thatfits that thing they're doing,
and that it's certainly possiblethat they're building an
(35:46):
identity that suits them, thatin many respects serves them.
And I'm not gonna say that it'suniversally bad, but I'm gonna
say, on the whole, for the bulkof people, they're trying to be
a square peg and a round hole.
They're trying to createthemselves into something that
(36:10):
they're not, that doesn't suittheir unique authenticity, that
doesn't take them to the kind offulfillment and satisfaction and
happiness and general peace thatthey could attain by not trying
to fit in a system that reallyonly rewards those running the
(36:35):
system.
SPEAKER_02 (36:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
And I and I don't want to sound like a malcontent
or a discontent.
I don't want to get allpolitical.
I want to stay psychological.
I want to stay in the mind.
I want to stay in the humannessof our desires and our
preferences and our interests.
I want us to love ourselves andfeel entitled and worthy to be
(36:58):
who we are, whatever that is,without paying attention or
putting too much stock incareers, in money, in prestige,
in looks, and turn inward andask yourself, what do I really
want from me?
Not what does the world want meto be?
(37:19):
What has the world rewarded meand kept me moving forward in
that has led me to a place nowwhere I don't understand why I'm
so dissatisfied with this.
Right?
You know, the world, you know,I'll talk about me.
The world rewarded me and pattedme on the back enough that I
(37:40):
went back to school and Istudied and I achieved.
And I went to law school and Istudied and I achieved.
And I got a good job and Iworked hard and I achieved.
And right when things were likeon the cusp of taking off for
me, I looked around me and sawthe life that was waiting for
(38:04):
me, and I didn't want itanymore.
It didn't serve me as a humanbeing.
There was no room for musicanymore, there was no room for
creativity anymore.
There was no room for evenwearing sweatpants anymore,
right?
There was no room for choosingnot to shave some days, right?
There was no room for thesethings that were, I guess, part
(38:28):
of who I was internally drivento be.
So I I I I think about identity,and identity can really be a
cage.
And sometimes that cage is builton the words of others and the
(38:48):
praise of others until you're inthe middle of that cage and it's
very uncomfortable, and youcan't find a way out without
really making a mess of things.
And it was all done with thebest of intentions.
You're a good-hearted, innocenthuman being who was raised to
try to do this because the worldseems to reward that, but for
(39:12):
some of us, the rewards of moneyand power are not satisfying.
And we become something and wecompare ourselves to others, and
then we ultimately fall off thatcomparison, and then our
identity is rocked.
It's really possible to be thebest hockey player in small town
(39:37):
Ontario and make your way to alevel where you're just not the
best hockey player anymore.
And what do you do then whenyou've listened to everybody's
parents tell you how talentedyou are, when you've listened to
everybody's parents tell you howyou're destined for the NHL,
when you've listened to all thecoaches want you as their
(39:58):
starting player on Their team,right?
And then you're faced with, Iguess I'm not the best anymore.
And your identity has been builtaround that.
And it can be the same with anoccupation.
It can be the same with yourlooks, right?
It can be the same with yourintelligence.
(40:20):
Really anything that humanbeings do when we're living
outside ourselves like that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yeah.
And I I think if we're heavilyattached to it, when it's
apparent that you're letting itgo, whether it's by force, a
health issue, even justretirement.
We have many clients that cometo us because they're they're in
(40:49):
retirement and they feel likethey they've gone into maybe a
little bit of a depression.
They're they're anxious becausethey don't know who they are
anymore or what to do.
Yeah, identity is huge.
And I asked the question, not totake up too much more time, but
like I asked the question beforeeven starting, you know, are
(41:09):
ident are identity and ego oneand the same.
And yeah, I don't I don't thinkthey're one and the same
anymore.
I wondered about it, but I Ifeel like ego, how do I say it?
Like ego wants us to cling, andidentity is the thing that it
(41:30):
wants to cling.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
I like that.
Yeah.
And I think that there is, it'snot always positive forces.
I think that that's worthtalking about too.
What shapes our view ofourselves are not always pats on
the back and praise.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
In fact, more often it is criticism, it is judgment.
I'm going to suggest that whenidentity, identity is the
conclusion we come to that stopsus from pursuing our creativity
and our curiosity.
And ego is the judgment of whatwe have and haven't attained.
(42:10):
Because a lot of people's ego isvery hard on them.
Again, this is anotherdiscussion we can pursue.
I'm going through it, right?
Like all the things, you know.
When you've been around longenough, you've done a lot of
things.
And when you've done a lot ofthings, and you identify
yourself with those things,those practices, those
(42:32):
occupations, those experiencesof the past, good and bad, you
start to create this identitywhich isn't you.
Because you could change whatyou do, and you could change
what you wear, and you couldchange how you look.
You can change how you spendyour days, and you don't
disappear.
(42:53):
So that can't be who you are.
SPEAKER_02 (42:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:56):
And I don't think we live in a world that encourages
people to go after the question,who am I?
And I believe that when I haveengaged that question with my
clients, they have becomehappier.
They have become lighter.
They've become excited about thepotential that still remains in
(43:20):
the in the heartbeats that theyhave left.
Yeah, I know we're running outof time today.
So I guess, you know, I don'tknow where we'll pick it up.
Maybe we'll pick it up tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll continue.
SPEAKER_01 (43:31):
Yeah.
My goal is just again to createfreedom, yeah, not to create
judgment.
SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thanks for joining us, andwe will see you later.
We are the line.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
First hint of daylight.
It was dark this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:14):
Dark.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
But it's getting lighter.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Yeah, it's isn't it funny the things we tell
ourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Right?
I think we get about four and ahalf minutes each day.
I think it's about that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
You do?
Yeah.
Is that based on your meteorologmeteorological acumen?
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
My one class from university.
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
Success is a dangerous thing.
Yeah, that's what we thoughtwe'd talk about today.
You know, one of the things thatI struggle with and have been
working on lately, and I won'tsay successfully, I'll just say
working on lately, is identity,you know, who I am and what does
(01:02):
that mean?
And can, you know, can you evenput it in a label?
What does identity mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
I think identity means to me a self that I
resonate with, whether that's adeep attachment or something
that's malleable.
Yeah, identity is part of youknow how I think, how I act
(01:28):
around people, how I dress, howyou know my work.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Is that your identity, or is that how do you
express what you perceive asyour identity?
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
That's how I express how I perceive my identity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
So if you had to, I I think of identity and I think
of definitions.
I think of descriptions, I thinkof beliefs.
If you had to define yourself,right?
It's easy for me to define mycoffee mug.
But I would define it indimensions, I would define it in
(02:06):
capacity, yeah.
I would define it in shape.
And for the coffee mug, thoseare permanent.
But none of those things arepermanent for human beings.
I mean, really, what ispermanent for a human being?
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah.
No, I think we're always influx.
I think we're always changing,hopefully.
I think identity, what comes tomy mind is as a human, you have
to build it up in order to tearit down.
Right?
We need you you need to know thecontrast of what you all life is
all about contrast.
(02:39):
And I think for anything inlife, you have to go through it
to know what you don't want orwhat you do want, right?
But the opposite of that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Preferences and contrasts.
The things I think I prefer tillI experience them, and then the
contrast tells me, yeah, not somuch.
SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
In the chat, we've got, I'vebeen working on expanding my
identity, letting my sense ofself be bigger than what I have
thought for most of my life.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
So is identity a self-defined thing?
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
You mean do we define it in ourselves or do
others define it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Yeah, well, to say, you know, to say I'm trying to
expand it is to suggest that Iam aware of it.
And it was too small.
It wasn't, it wasn't satisfyingme.
Which again, like, you know, forme, it's what are the terms?
What are the terms under whichwe are defining this?
What are the terms under whichwe're describing this?
(03:43):
To what extent is this a belief?
Right?
It's, you know, like I so whatbrings this on was the other day
I was, I was, I like to haveexperiments with my mind.
I like to play with my mind.
I like to question the stuff.
I like to question anything Ithink is real and ask where does
(04:04):
that sense of realness comefrom?
And so I was doing some writingand I wrote down a list of
questions, and I played withthem for a while.
So here's the list.
I found a piece of paper.
Now, if I was going to describewho I am, and I use the word who
as my unique self, what I am,you know, there's lots of things
(04:29):
that are common to everybodyelse.
You know, I could say I'm a man,right?
And although it there's somespectrum there a little bit, but
it's still like everybody's gotone of these things.
I can I can ask myself, youknow, how tall I am, what my
racial background is, whatlanguage I speak.
(04:50):
These are all things I candescribe about myself, but
they're not really who I am.
They're things I do, and theycan change.
And if it can change, then it'snot who you are.
It's a description of how youare being presently.
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Presently, yeah.
That's that's a good it it sortof reminds me.
I I remember I have a vaguememory of this.
When you either move as a kid oryou change schools, or you go
from public school to highschool, or from high school to
college or university, there'sthis exciting moment.
(05:32):
I don't know, I I used to gothrough this of deciding like
who do I want to be, right?
And so if you had known me inhigh school, I was I was this
transient, I don't know ifthat's the right word, but like
I was goth uh for a little bit.
(05:54):
I emu or emo emo didn't existback then, but I was I was never
a jock or cool, you know, partof the cool crap.
But I was this sort of floaterthat went through different
groups, and I guess maybe tryingto find who I was, but honestly,
(06:19):
when I think back, mainly I I Ijust had good friends in those
groups, so it did it wasn't likeI need to be goth or or I need
to be nerd or gamer or you know,all these people, all these
groups that I sort of flowedthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
So is my identity something that I can create?
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
I think so, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
So I can change it?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
So my identity isn't even permanent.
Is my identity ever anythingmore than a belief in my head
and a set of practices Iassociate with it?
Yeah, I think sorry I gotta goclean my glasses before I can
see you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Um I I think that identity can be shifted.
I think it can it doesn't haveto be static.
I do believe that we cling toidentity maybe too much
sometimes, but that's to eachtheir own, right?
(07:22):
And I do believe that it issomething that that can
absolutely change if you want tomake changes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
So the exercise I did was if I could not use any
kind of dimensions, if Icouldn't use any kind of
descriptions, if I couldn't useage, if I couldn't use careers
and jobs or occupations, if Icouldn't use belongings or
hobbies or practices, thingsthat I do.
(07:55):
Yeah, how would I describe who Iam?
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Blob.
No, spirit.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
All of these things are things that are either,
well, everything's chosen, butmost of these things are chosen,
sometimes chosen for us.
And I'll come back to thatquestion I answered before we
started in a minute, but theseare all changeable, right?
I can change my weight, I mightnot be able to change my height,
but in today's world, I canchange my eye color, I can
(08:28):
change my hair color, I canchange my style, right?
I can't really change my age perse, but boy, oh boy, I just
spent two and a half years atthe gym and I feel like 10 years
younger.
And and everybody tells me Ilook younger.
So I think that there's my ageis something that I can embrace
(08:49):
or not embrace.
I've had so many differentoccupations.
And that's one of the things I'mI'm actually part of my
identity, I suppose, that I'mreally proud of is that I've
made changes, that I'vedeliberately said, enough of
this.
This doesn't make me happy, I'mnot doing it anymore.
In spite of, you know, successor failure.
(09:10):
We'll come back to thatquestion.
You know, the question I'mtalking about.
My hobbies have changed over andover and over, right?
And I find myself doing things,you know, uh during different
eras of my life.
And my practices in terms ofgetting up and and being myself
(09:32):
have definitely changed andoften are defined by where I am
more than what I might say who Iam.
Right?
These are all things that justchange.
But these are the things ifsomebody said, you know, who are
you?
Well, hi, I'm Les.
I am a professor at a college, Iteach business, yeah, I teach
(09:54):
law, I teach sustainability, wasa description, it included
occupation and practices andthings like that, that I was
really I kind of liked.
It felt good, it feed my my ego,right?
Yeah, my need to feel like Iserve a purpose in the world,
(10:16):
that I have value, that I'mdoing something meaningful, that
I'm engaged as a person who isright, all of those things.
And it was an identity that Iconstructed for myself during a
period of time in my life thatit reached a point where I
didn't like it anymore.
(10:37):
I didn't, I didn't want tocontinue in that environment.
But that was my identity, and Iand it was mostly in my mind
because anybody who met me,right, for the first time,
unless I told them that, theyhad no idea.
And today, when I meet newpeople, I fall back to those
kinds of descriptions thataren't even true anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
I talk about who I was, I talk about what I was, I
talk about my level of success,right?
I I pick and choose the thingsin my past that sound, I think
sound to others good.
And that's what I present.
Right.
I would never say, oh, yeah, Iwas the guy who yelled at his
(11:21):
kids.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
Like that's not that's not something I want to
include.
You know, I'm divorced.
That's not something I want totalk about.
Very much still a part of mypast, part of my experience, but
not who I would have thought andsaid I was.
And so for me, like you and I,we we we come to a quick answer
(11:44):
from that question.
But if tomorrow you changed youroccupation, if tomorrow you
decided to go to the gym or stopgoing to the gym so that your
shape would change, if you wereto decide to engage all new
things in an all new place, whatis the part of you that is you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
You're asking me?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Absolutely, there's nobody else here, but I'm asking
everybody who's listening.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
As the sun is starting to show itself.
SPEAKER_00 (12:14):
Yeah.
I think if I was to start over,if that's what you're asking.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
No.
Oh, I'm not asking who you are.
I'm not asking what you dodifferently.
Because I but that's where we'reheaded with that.
I that's I guess you know, I'mjumping ahead.
I'm jumping ahead to the ideathat if all of these things are
changeable and it's a functionof what I believe is possible,
(12:40):
yeah.
What stops me from being a newidentity?
Like right now.
I don't have to wait tilltomorrow or Monday or on the new
year or sometime at the end ofthe next month.
I could right now choose myidentity and live that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think I think uh I've definitely thought
that exact thing in the pastabout myself, about how you can
just make a decision to umchange.
The sticking to the change is isa little different, but yeah, I
agree with you that you can youcan just make a make a decision
moment to moment.
(13:23):
I think Joe Dispenza talks aboutthat too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
I I think it's possible, right?
But it sure doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (13:30):
No.
I think it doesn't happenbecause we well, let's say our
ego says, well, no, I want totalk about my my past and who I
am now or who I think I am, or II want to feel that little tiny
blip of dopamine that says,yeah, I've made it, or I you
(13:53):
know I'm a I don't know if goodperson comes to mind in my mind,
but I'm I've made it or I'msuccessful, all those things
that we cling to in Westernculture.
And it's funny in the chat, Iwas I was actually gonna bring
this up, but I wasn't sure if itwas if I was remembering it
(14:15):
properly.
But in the chat here in NorthAmerica, when we are asked what
we do, we talk about ourcareers, but in Australia, when
they ask what do you do, theyare asking about what you do for
fun, for recreation, verydifferent focus on defining
ourselves in that society.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
But it's interesting that that's always the first
question.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah.
I mean, let's let's normalizesaying that we're infinite
beings of spiritual awareness.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
It's not a great, great conversation started
because that's what we all are.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
So I suppose so what's happening with you and
your infinite potential?
Yeah.
Well, that's like for me, it'salways about the mind and the
way mind creates what weperceive to be our reality.
Most of the time, that mind iscreating things that are based
(15:13):
in fear, and so they tend to benegative and critical, they tend
to be defining and limiting.
They they we tend to on a publicway try to focus on our
successes, and on a private way,we very much focus on our
failures and our negativeaspects.
(15:34):
We we dwell and ruminate on,yeah, some pretty pretty small
moments that have had bigimpacts.
Yeah.
It's just, you know, I'mthinking about, you know, I'm
thinking about my identity.
I'm thinking about how I seemyself and I encourage others to
do the same, right?
(15:54):
How much, you know, let's let'sgo to that question, you know,
like is it possible that successat a job or a hobby is actually
the worst thing that can happento you?
Is it possible that somebodypatting you on the back and
saying, good job, you're good atthis, and then you just keep
(16:15):
doing it?
Not because you love it, notbecause you're even at your best
when you're doing it, butbecause somebody else noticed
you now maybe pays you, maybetreats you like you're special
because of this success thatyou've had.
(16:37):
Yeah, this thing that everybodyelse values, right?
You you commit to and spend yourtime on beyond what you would
want to spend your time on, incontrast to that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Yeah.
I I do think that, like I saidbefore we started the podcast, I
do think that I'm not sure ifit's like the worst thing that
can happen to you, but it'scertainly not helpful in many
situations.
I I think, like I said in thebeginning, we sort of have to go
(17:17):
through it to know what we don'twant.
We need, as humans, we need thatcontrast.
You know, I really want thatcareer.
Ah, maybe I don't really wantthat career.
I really want that relationship.
Ah, maybe I don't really wantthat relationship.
And all these different thingswe need to experience in order
(17:38):
to know what the opposite is orsomething not like that.
So, you know, I I guess I'llI'll go into what I said I was I
was gonna talk about.
I went through school to be adesigner, and when I graduated,
I manifested the crap out of acertain job.
(18:04):
And I was doing like every kindof manifesting technique there
was to get this job because Ithought that's what I wanted.
If I could put that label nextto my name, you know, Hillary
Leehan something designer, Iwould you could say the thing
without saying the company.
Yeah.
Oh, so Hillary, like toydesigner.
(18:27):
That was really that felt good.
Also, if I could say that, thisis an interesting part of it
that off I often think about andwonder how it applies now if it
doesn't.
So before I could even callmyself a toy designer, it's like
I didn't allow myself to be fun.
(18:49):
I wanted my desk to be full ofsilly things.
You remember it after I got thejob.
I had the I had like littlelittle cars on it, little Legos,
little smushy things.
I don't even know, like tons oftons of silly stuff that made me
feel light and silly and fun,right?
(19:10):
And and so I ended up mangetting the job, and not much
longer later, a couple months,my soul was like, nope, this is
not, this is not what you'redoing.
And I ended up with I mean, allI can call it now is like this
neurological sleeping disorder.
(19:33):
And it sent me flat on my on myass.
I had to let go of everything.
I was working as a toy design,you know, an intern, basically
intern toy designer, an outdoorkitchen designer at the same
time.
And I had to, within like twoweeks of this sleeping issue, I
(19:56):
had to let go of my whole life.
And I was a Wreck.
So with all that being said, Ithink our ego can push us and
push us and push us to the brinkof, I mean, we hear it a lot,
the corporate story, right?
But like burnout and people justsaying like this wasn't, this
(20:20):
wasn't my path.
I climbed the ladder, I kickedother people off the ladder, you
know.
And it just wasn't wasn't forme.
So I thought I wanted that life.
My ego was constantly tellingme, you're gonna be the best
designer in the world, you'regonna be this, you're gonna be
that.
And it's funny how I went intoeverything like that, right?
(20:44):
Up until 2018.
I went into to every every umjob idea that I ever had, which
was a lot, guys.
I was gonna be like the best inthe world.
And so I had this incrediblydriven ego.
(21:06):
And the letting go of that lifewas hard.
There was a lot of forgivenessinvolved, a lot of like, why in
the hell did I go through thatmuch schooling, years of
schooling to get to have thisdisorder, sleeping disorder, and
(21:30):
then just totally change my lifeinto something else, you know?
So I think long story short, itit can it can put us in not
helpful situations, but if I'mto look back on it, I think I
have enough mind now or enough asort of i introspection, if
(21:54):
that's the word, to look at itand say, okay, yeah, I I sort of
understand that I wasn't maybeon the most helpful path for my
life, but again, I needed to gothrough that to know that I
didn't want that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
I'm I I want to observe something and I don't
want it in any way to soundcritical because I think it's
really, really normal.
I think it is broadly normal.
I think it's programmed into usfrom the instant we are
(22:32):
certainly in classrooms, but itwithin families, if there are
multiple children, right?
This idea of the best, right?
I think the best, that sort ofcomparison, that competition
that it creates, you know, whodid the best job, who got the
(22:53):
highest score on the test, who'sthe best, right?
Whose art is the best, right?
The best is something that'sreally programmed into us, and
we come about it reallyinnocently, right?
This is not, and and the goal,of course, is is sounds
(23:14):
wonderful, right?
Like why I need to strive.
I it's good for me, it's goodfor the world if I strive.
At least that's the program,right?
And I've worked with a couple ofclients on this, and the best to
me is kind of like the idea ofperfect.
(23:37):
It's unattainable, it's definedin really loose ethereal terms
that can't really fit any kindof constant definition in any
meaningful way.
We use the term like it'ssomething to aspire to.
It's perfect.
I want the perfect thing, I wantit to be perfect, I need this
(23:57):
and that in my life to beperfect, right?
And it it creates an illusorygoal that is completely
unattainable because it's athing within a constantly
changing background.
And as long as the background isconstantly changing, perfection
(24:18):
can't be attained.
And in the same way, if I'mgonna be the best, what I need
is for others to be worse.
If I'm gonna be the best, I'mnot really in control of that
because I can't control whatother people attain.
(24:38):
Yeah, and so I'm constantlystriving and comparing, and as a
result, I'm never actually inthe moment, and I'm never really
in touch with myself.
Yeah, it is while I'm trying tobe the best, right?
I am outwardly focused andseeking outward approval and
(25:03):
seeking outward reward.
Now it's a simple shift, right?
And it starts instead of acomparison outside yourself, but
it's decision of what youprefer, right?
What do I enjoy for me based onmy curiosity and my creativity?
(25:24):
What do I want for me withoutreference to the external world
and others?
And that then becomes I want tobe the best I can be.
I want to take myself to mylimits.
I want to do my best.
I want to go to my limits, and Iwant to push myself past them.
(25:47):
And whenever you see somebodytotally engrossed in something,
and it's easy to see kids withtheir video games this way,
right?
They're totally engrossed.
They're completely fascinated,they're completely pushing
themselves through theirmistakes.
They make a mistake, they go,ah, and they bark and they're
gonna figure this out.
(26:08):
And then they stay with it andthey push themselves, and they
push themselves, and theypractice and they try and they
keep going, right?
And when that is rewardingsomething internal in you,
something moving you, your owncreativity, your own curiosity,
(26:28):
the things that engage youwithout effort, and you're
pursuing them to their highest,to your highest potential,
right?
Then you're being your best.
And the instant you shift thatfocus to outside of you and
compare yourself to others,you're now in a never-ending
(26:50):
battle because the instant youmight think you're the best,
along comes somebody that'sbetter, right?
Better, at least in your mind.
And that creates dissatisfactionin your own personal pursuits.
So I think this happens reallyhonestly.
I think that we're all raisedthat way.
And it it expresses itself notjust in a single thing.
(27:11):
It's like I want to have thebest house, I want to have the
best bank account, I want to bethe best person, right?
And this is where I think someof our society is really lost
in, right?
When I think about how thewealthy are amassing money, not
for the purposes of the money,but for the purposes of saying I
(27:33):
have more than everybody else.
And that makes me a betterperson.
I am more successful in thissociety because I have more.
I have more notoriety, I havemore prestige, I'm working at
the best firm, at the bestcompany.
(27:53):
I am the best this.
And I think that that's that'skind of an eternal, internal
thing that sets us up, right?
Because then we marry ouridentity to this thing.
And, you know, I like to use theexample.
I, you know, I love baseball,and I think it's just this
(28:15):
beautiful metaphor for life.
And baseball players turn 40 andthey say, you know, I'm gonna
play this game till somebodytakes my uniform off my back.
In other words, I'm gonna playuntil somebody says you're no
good anymore.
And then they go through acrisis because this is what I
am.
This is what I've always been.
(28:37):
This is how I define myself.
I'm the best ball player thatcame from my hometown.
I'm the best ball player in mywhole circuit.
I'm the best ball player on myteam.
I'm the best ball player thatever lived.
And now I'm not a ball playerbecause my age and my body have
(28:57):
just simply reached a pointwhere I can't be better than
others anymore.
And then their identity isreally shaken.
People will strive for a careerof any kind, and they reach a
point where, you know, I am I amthe chosen one.
(29:17):
I work in this department, andeverybody looks to me.
I am the leader of mydepartment, I'm the leader of my
division, I'm the leader of myregion, I'm the leader of the
company, and I'm moving my wayup, and I have the most this and
the best that, and I'veaccomplished this.
And it becomes an identity, howsuccess can lead you to a place
(29:39):
where you have such a strongself-definition, and then that
changes.
And then you're left with, well,who am I then?
If I'm not doing this anymore,who am I?
And what if by chance, deepinside me, I've been led down a
path because I bought into theidea of being the best and
(30:00):
striving, and what other peopledefine as success, and what
other people define as a goodperson, and what other people
defined as a good man or a goodwoman.
I've been led by that down apath, and I find at the my place
on that path for the whole thingto be completely unrewarding,
(30:22):
the whole thing to be filledwith contradictions, the whole
thing to be filled with pain,the whole thing to be filled
with limitations.
It's now a box, it's now a cage,and I have to keep doing this.
I have to keep being that,right?
And it doesn't, you it doesn'tyou don't have to be somebody
(30:43):
who strives to be the best.
You can be just somebodystriving to be successful in our
society.
And I want to own my own home.
Like somehow that is a definingcharacteristic of success.
I want to have a career, likethat's a defining
characteristic.
These are all programs that wewe engage early, early, early in
(31:08):
our lives, and we don't questionthem ever again.
And we find they take us down apath that might be, you know,
emotionally and physicallypainful, so much so that we end
up with sleep issues or eatingissues or drinking issues or
smoking issues or drug issues orgambling issues, like all sex
(31:30):
issues, all these things that weseek to distract ourselves from
the pain of the life that wehonestly, with good intentions
and followed the program, triedto create for ourselves.
What I'm driving at is not to becritical of anybody's choices.
I'm not trying to be negative orbelittling because I believe
(31:55):
that this is a program that mostof us get programmed into.
And I believe most of us sufferbecause we can't be the best.
There's only ever one best in aroom full of 30 kids in a
classroom, there's only onebest.
And in a corporation of 500employees, there's only one
(32:20):
best.
And so you you find yourself ina world where being the best is
a virtual impossibility.
I I used to call it the lotteryticket, right?
You know, uh a corporation's gothiring 20 entry-level people
every year, and they come in,and only one of them or two of
(32:41):
them might make it to the nextlevel, and only one of them make
it to the level up.
And there's this steady flow ofnew people in, and corporations
call it up or out, and they meanit.
You're either moving up oryou're out, and only one is
going to be the best, whichmeans everyone else is dealing
with these ideas fromperspective of unattainment, and
(33:07):
which is what does it mean to bethe best?
And and it might become a senseof failure.
Yeah, it starts to become aself-definition, an identity
that we buy into a belief.
I'm sorry, yeah, your question.
SPEAKER_00 (33:23):
No, that's okay.
It was more of a like, what whatare we losing to be the best?
And and in what eyesity.
Well, yeah, and and in what eyesare we the best, right?
Like the best is so subjective.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Absolutely.
And and it's to me, it's likethe idea of perfect, yeah.
And it's so much outsideyourself.
It's it's a stupid idea thatdrives us.
It's an idea that we embraceearly on, very young, and then
we use it to define ourselveslater.
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
And this is where I think identity and ego can
become negative.
Identity and ego for those thathave six success in this chosen
path that they are measured byothers as better than most.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
Right.
These people have their ownfailure, ultimate at the end of
the road, nothing lasts forever.
They have this ultimate end tothis nice string of successes.
Or early on, you don't get thesuccess.
You're not the best.
You don't think of yourself inthose terms, and you start to
(34:37):
think of yourself in otherterms.
And now your beliefs aboutyourself start to become: I
can't, I'm not good enough, I'mnot allowed, I'm not worthy, I'm
not talented enough, I'm notsmart enough, I'm not good
looking enough, I'm not enough.
All these things that I'm notenough of just start to get
(34:59):
shortened into I'm not enough.
Right.
And so for me, I I have a goalfor myself, which is to kick the
crap out of this idea ofidentity.
I want, I want rid of it.
I want rid of it for myself.
And for those reasons, and Ithink they're, you know,
personally self-love reasons, Iwant it for everyone else.
(35:24):
Now, for those out there thatare having success, that are
achieving what they want, whofeel like they're meant to be
doing what they're doing, right?
I'm gonna guess that there's anelement inside themselves of
creativity and curiosity thatfits that thing they're doing,
and that it's certainly possiblethat they're building an
(35:46):
identity that suits them, thatin many respects serves them.
And I'm not gonna say that it'suniversally bad, but I'm gonna
say, on the whole, for the bulkof people, they're trying to be
a square peg and a round hole.
They're trying to createthemselves into something that
(36:10):
they're not, that doesn't suittheir unique authenticity, that
doesn't take them to the kind offulfillment and satisfaction and
happiness and general peace thatthey could attain by not trying
to fit in a system that reallyonly rewards those running the
(36:35):
system.
SPEAKER_02 (36:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
And I and I don't want to sound like a malcontent
or a discontent.
I don't want to get allpolitical.
I want to stay psychological.
I want to stay in the mind.
I want to stay in the humannessof our desires and our
preferences and our interests.
I want us to love ourselves andfeel entitled and worthy to be
(36:58):
who we are, whatever that is,without paying attention or
putting too much stock incareers, in money, in prestige,
in looks, and turn inward andask yourself, what do I really
want from me?
Not what does the world want meto be?
(37:19):
What has the world rewarded meand kept me moving forward in
that has led me to a place nowwhere I don't understand why I'm
so dissatisfied with this.
Right?
You know, the world, you know,I'll talk about me.
The world rewarded me and pattedme on the back enough that I
(37:40):
went back to school and Istudied and I achieved.
And I went to law school and Istudied and I achieved.
And I got a good job and Iworked hard and I achieved.
And right when things were likeon the cusp of taking off for
me, I looked around me and sawthe life that was waiting for
(38:04):
me, and I didn't want itanymore.
It didn't serve me as a humanbeing.
There was no room for musicanymore, there was no room for
creativity anymore.
There was no room for evenwearing sweatpants anymore,
right?
There was no room for choosingnot to shave some days, right?
There was no room for thesethings that were, I guess, part
(38:28):
of who I was internally drivento be.
So I I I I think about identity,and identity can really be a
cage.
And sometimes that cage is builton the words of others and the
(38:48):
praise of others until you're inthe middle of that cage and it's
very uncomfortable, and youcan't find a way out without
really making a mess of things.
And it was all done with thebest of intentions.
You're a good-hearted, innocenthuman being who was raised to
try to do this because the worldseems to reward that, but for
(39:12):
some of us, the rewards of moneyand power are not satisfying.
And we become something and wecompare ourselves to others, and
then we ultimately fall off thatcomparison, and then our
identity is rocked.
It's really possible to be thebest hockey player in small town
(39:37):
Ontario and make your way to alevel where you're just not the
best hockey player anymore.
And what do you do then whenyou've listened to everybody's
parents tell you how talentedyou are, when you've listened to
everybody's parents tell you howyou're destined for the NHL,
when you've listened to all thecoaches want you as their
(39:58):
starting player on Their team,right?
And then you're faced with, Iguess I'm not the best anymore.
And your identity has been builtaround that.
And it can be the same with anoccupation.
It can be the same with yourlooks, right?
It can be the same with yourintelligence.
(40:20):
Really anything that humanbeings do when we're living
outside ourselves like that.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yeah.
And I I think if we're heavilyattached to it, when it's
apparent that you're letting itgo, whether it's by force, a
health issue, even justretirement.
We have many clients that cometo us because they're they're in
(40:49):
retirement and they feel likethey they've gone into maybe a
little bit of a depression.
They're they're anxious becausethey don't know who they are
anymore or what to do.
Yeah, identity is huge.
And I asked the question, not totake up too much more time, but
like I asked the question beforeeven starting, you know, are
(41:09):
ident are identity and ego oneand the same.
And yeah, I don't I don't thinkthey're one and the same
anymore.
I wondered about it, but I Ifeel like ego, how do I say it?
Like ego wants us to cling, andidentity is the thing that it
(41:30):
wants to cling.
SPEAKER_01 (41:32):
I like that.
Yeah.
And I think that there is, it'snot always positive forces.
I think that that's worthtalking about too.
What shapes our view ofourselves are not always pats on
the back and praise.
SPEAKER_02 (41:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
In fact, more often it is criticism, it is judgment.
I'm going to suggest that whenidentity, identity is the
conclusion we come to that stopsus from pursuing our creativity
and our curiosity.
And ego is the judgment of whatwe have and haven't attained.
(42:10):
Because a lot of people's ego isvery hard on them.
Again, this is anotherdiscussion we can pursue.
I'm going through it, right?
Like all the things, you know.
When you've been around longenough, you've done a lot of
things.
And when you've done a lot ofthings, and you identify
yourself with those things,those practices, those
(42:32):
occupations, those experiencesof the past, good and bad, you
start to create this identitywhich isn't you.
Because you could change whatyou do, and you could change
what you wear, and you couldchange how you look.
You can change how you spendyour days, and you don't
disappear.
(42:53):
So that can't be who you are.
SPEAKER_02 (42:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:56):
And I don't think we live in a world that encourages
people to go after the question,who am I?
And I believe that when I haveengaged that question with my
clients, they have becomehappier.
They have become lighter.
They've become excited about thepotential that still remains in
(43:20):
the in the heartbeats that theyhave left.
Yeah, I know we're running outof time today.
So I guess, you know, I don'tknow where we'll pick it up.
Maybe we'll pick it up tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll continue.
SPEAKER_01 (43:31):
Yeah.
My goal is just again to createfreedom, yeah, not to create
judgment.
SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, thanks for joining us, andwe will see you later.
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