September 17, 2024 • 39 mins
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Can critical thinking save your relationships? Join Hilary and Les as they unravel the surprising ways critical thinking shapes our interactions and mental health. In this eye-opening episode of "Coffee with Hilary and Les," Hilary recounts her initial skepticism about critical thinking, often mistaking it for judgmental behavior, while Les shares insights from his teaching days at Trent University, where the Socratic method illuminated the path to deeper understanding and meaningful dialogue.
We delve into the powerful influence of authority figures on our subconscious beliefs, discussing how parents, teachers, and even doctors shape our worldviews. By reassessing these ingrained notions, we can better navigate the complexities of our social fabric, especially in times of heightened societal division. Hilary and Les emphasize that critical thinking is not a tool for asserting superiority but a personal shield against misinformation and manipulation.
Finally, we explore the turbulent waters of opinions and their emotional undercurrents. By distinguishing facts from opinions and managing our own judgments, we can foster more respectful and calm interactions. This episode advocates for a mindful approach to conversations, encouraging listeners to treat opinions as evolving perspectives rather than immutable truths. Tune in to discover how critical thinking can enhance your intellectual and emotional resilience, paving the way for personal growth and deeper understanding.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome and thank you for joining us for Coffee with
Hilary and Les.
Brought to you by the State ofMind Hypnosis and Training
Center located in the heart ofthe Kawartha Lakes.
This is our almost dailycommunity podcast about the mind
and how we all might change itin the most simple and helpful
(00:30):
ways.
Every day we sit staring at thelake and sipping our coffee,
chatting about hypnosis and howto make those meaningful
adjustments to our state of mind, Because nothing's more
important than your state ofmind, because nothing's more
important than your state ofmind and the Sun has burned away
(00:55):
.
The fog was foggy, we couldn'tsee past the dock, and now we
can see right across, and, andthe sun is shining in my face.
Life is good.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Face is glowing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's kind of like you know, clearing away the fog of
life as a segue into our topic.
Yes, the last time we did apodcast, we talked a little bit
about critical thinking.
We just sort of touched on it.
We said we should do something.
Hillary said I think we shoulddo something on critical
(01:33):
thinking.
Yes, and she's been sufferingresistance ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I think you know, and I said this yesterday and the
day before, I think myresistance with it is I hear
about it a lot, but how do I putthis?
It hasn't been said to me inpositive ways, right?
(02:10):
So I always think that criticalthinking is judgy people, right
?
So it hasn't been like a nicething in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
They probably were being judgy yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I.
So I associated criticalthinkers with judgy people, and
that's not saying that I'm not acritical thinker at times, um,
but um, you know, I've hadpeople say, like you know, I
live in a bubble.
I think I mentioned that lasttime.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think that might be a good place to start.
You know, it's very easy forsome people to see flaws in
ideas flaws in ideas.
Flaws in logic, because somepeople are well let's.
(03:12):
I think it's very topicspecific.
I think people who areinterested in certain topics can
be really hyper focused onprecision and accuracy in the
way people think, and so if it'ssomething that you really know
a lot about, you know you'regoing to quickly correct other
(03:35):
people, and I think that'sreally where the problem kicks
in.
You know, it was said to me along time ago and it's it's a
huge idea, I think, for all ofus.
Would you rather be right or behappy?
mm-hmm would you rather be rightor be happy?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
and I've turned that into.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You know the only thing right gets you is alone.
And it's really kind of truethat if you're focused on being
the one who's right, you want towin arguments.
You're not really payingattention to the dynamic between
(04:22):
you and the other person andwhat that's doing to your
relationship.
And I think you know um,critical thinking can be a tool
that some people use againstothers in their pursuit of being
right yeah, I think about thelast four years.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Right, how we see so many people having fallen into
this and just being alonebecause they they can't converse
with other people very wellbecause everybody wants to be
right and there ends up beingclashing well, everything
becomes an argument, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And that's the unfortunate thing and you know
I'm raising my hand here, I'mguilty of this I'm one of those
people that has certainlyenjoyed that momentary, fleeting
experience of superiority thatsuddenly results in loneliness.
(05:31):
Yeah Right, it's interestinghow people are quick to react to
others' mistaken understandings.
I think that there's a programunder there that we acquire
(05:55):
honestly really from our parentsprobably Usually our parents,
sometimes a teacher.
You know, when I was teachingat Trent, one of the things
students said to me because Iguess maybe I had grown in this,
(06:16):
I had started to see thingsdifferently and act differently.
But you know, I got complimentedby a student that they're used
to professors that are alwaystrying to prove how smart they
are, and they were.
They were happy that I wasreally more focused on their
learning than I was at lookingsmart, and I think that that's
(06:40):
when I really fell deeply intothe Socratic method.
I don't think you canunderstand what you do know
unless you know you're given theopportunity to consider it and
express it, and so I really likethe idea of asking a question
and spending time on thatquestion and then bringing those
(07:04):
thoughts together into thelearning, and I find that to be
really useful way to do things.
You know, I I certainly canrelate to having experiences of
(07:24):
other people taking theirknowledge and using it on me as
an attempt to really justexercise their superiority, and
so I can understand why astudent stepping into a
classroom in a college oruniversity, or even had kids in
(07:49):
grade school and really feellike the person that's been
empowered to instruct them isreally just a little bit caught
up in their ego at the moment.
I'm not sure where this isgoing because we were.
(08:09):
we were talking about criticalthinking, but I think it's it's
an important aside for us tomaybe keep that in mind as we
proceed to talk about theseideas that the purpose is not in
in look how I can use my mind.
Its purpose is in how might weall use our minds more
(08:34):
effectively for ourselves, howmight we use our minds in a way
to protect ourselves from thosewho would attack us, from those
who would attack us, those whowould manipulate us, those who
would really attempt to controlus?
I guess that's why I lovecritical thinking is because I
(09:04):
really see this constant flow ofinformation that really is
keeping us in line and keepingus under control and keeping us
doing the same thing we didyesterday.
And doing things in a way thatdoesn't cause other people fear
or concern You're making that,considering face, I guess I
(09:38):
wonder about the in-linestatement.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Are you saying that critical thinking keeps us in
line?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
No, I think critical thinking allows us to choose
what line we want to be in.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Critical thinking allows us to ask the question
why is this person saying thisto me, right?
Why is this the dominantmessage that's in the news today
?
Why are politicians sayingthese kinds of things?
Why are medical doctors doingthese kinds of things?
I believe that criticalthinking has to have an element
(10:24):
of skepticism in it.
It starts with a?
Well, you know what does thismean to me, and is this truthful
?
Is this accurate?
Well, let's consider.
You know, one of the thingsthat's been going on for the
last few days is that,apparently, people are eating
(10:45):
dogs and cats because people inauthority are making qualitative
(11:09):
, broad-sweeping statements,trying to influence people so
they can get what they want,which is elected, and how do
people protect themselves fromthat?
Like you can laugh off that,which appears to be obvious and,
you know, appears then to beridiculous but I think a lot of
(11:51):
people smarter than the rest ofus.
No, no, I don't think a criticalthinker is smarter.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I think that it requires a certain capacity for
cognition.
You do need to think, but Ithink it's a critical thinker or
a non-critical thinker.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's a tool that they use or don't use, and I believe
it's a tool that we all use invarying degrees for certain
things.
That's the critical factor.
We talk about a mind model,right model.
The mind does a conscious mindand a subconscious mind and an
unconscious mind, and it has acritical factor which is almost
(12:39):
like a sentinel between yourconscious mind and your
unconscious mind.
Your conscious mind is outthere, perceiving and receiving
information, and receiving otherpeople's behaviors and words
and interpreting that, and theconscious mind is is there to
say you know, I'm not lettingjust anything into my
(13:01):
subconscious mind.
The critical factor is sayingthat when new ideas come my way,
I have to see how they fit intomy otherwise existing
understanding of everything.
And the critical factor doesn'tlet things flow through quickly
(13:22):
except under certain conditions,and one of those conditions is
the words of authority.
It's why the subconscious mindis so affected by the words of
your doctor or the words of yourprofessor, or the words of your
clergy person or the words ofyour parents.
These are authorities in yourlife, these are people that we
(13:45):
just assume they know whatthey're talking about, and so we
don't put a lot of filters onthose words.
We don't put a lot of screeningon those words and that's
really normal.
It's not always helpful For mesometimes.
One of the biggest shifts I seein my clients is when we just
(14:07):
talk about the reframe thatparents can be wrong, that your
parents can love you to the moonand back.
Your parents can have doneeverything they could possibly
do for you.
It doesn't mean that everythingthey do and say is right.
And when people are able toaccept that their parents are
(14:28):
allowed to make mistakes, thatthey yeah, they probably made
mistakes, yeah, they probablywere wrong sometimes, then the
subconscious mind can say, well,that makes sense and that makes
my parents normal.
There's nothing wrong with them.
So I can re-examine some of thestuff I've taken on from my
(14:52):
parents.
Right, we love our parents somuch.
Right, we try to emulate them,even when we're not even
conscious of that.
We we see them.
I mean, heck, before we wereable to have sort of cogent
thought, we were being cared forby them, we were being
protected by them, we were beingloved by them.
(15:14):
It's really normal, if you're ina situation where your parents
are loving you and caring foryou, that you adore them and you
emulate them and you mimic themand become like them.
That's just really reallynormal.
But that's one of those placeswhere critical thinking factors
in, because there's lots ofpeople out there who didn't have
(15:35):
that.
There's lots of people outthere that can't claim to have
had parents that were thatloving.
There's lots of people outthere who can't feel confident
that their parents had theirbest interests in mind.
Right, there are some peopleout there who are really quick
to agree when I say, parents canbe wrong and there are some
(16:20):
people.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Okay, this is the right way to think or this is
the wrong way to think.
The reason why I ask is youknow?
The other day I asked you knowwhat about a person that you
know believes in fairies orsomething right?
They love their backyard, theylove their forest and they just
(16:41):
really would love the thoughtthat fairies are in the forest
right and they feel like theybelieve in that.
Is that person not having anycritical thought and we are to
(17:03):
judge them as wrong, and why?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
well, first of all, I'm gonna.
I have come to the conclusionthat judgment in any form is
wasted mental effort.
Judgment serves no purpose.
And if I'm going to beconcerned with what you're
thinking, then I'm really tryingto control you.
(17:28):
And there's no way in the worldthat you can control somebody
and love them at the same time.
Inherently, in trying tocontrol somebody, you're saying
you're wrong, you're not goodenough, you're not thinking
clearly, you're not being theperson you should be.
In trying to control others, weare moving outside our real
(17:53):
sphere of influence.
So I think critical thinkingdoes not have to violate the
integrity of others.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So it's really for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Absolutely To move through the world.
Don't don't.
Critical thinking is a toolthat you use to help you
understand the world from yourperspective and make sure that
you don't take in falsehoods,things that aren't true.
(18:27):
That doesn't mean that what Ithink is true is the truth.
What it means is what I thinkis true has made sense to my
critical mind and it fits withmy other thoughts and beliefs.
At the same time, criticalthinking is the method you might
(18:49):
use to start changing thosebeliefs, because you would start
to be more logical.
Logic is one of the tools ofthinking that we can apply and
that we find is very useful.
When we're trying to engagecritical thinking, logic often
(19:27):
exposes to us our biases.
Our biases are the things werepredisposed to believe.
That might not be true.
You know, and using thatauthority analogy, that's, you
know, we're just predisposedwhen the doctor says you have
this disease and this diseaseand this is going on in your
blood and this is going on inyour urine and therefore we have
to take this pill.
Right, that's that's authority,just bypassing your own ability
(19:48):
to think about you and yourbody, and you accept it because
you don't have the educationthey have, you don't have the
background they have, they're ina position of authority as a
doctor, and so you think theyknow things that you can't know,
and you essentially hand overyour decision-making capacity to
(20:10):
a quote-unquote expert.
Critical thinking just allowsyou to use your own ability of
logic, your own ability to learnand acquire information, your
own ability to understand,before you accept the statements
(20:35):
and conclusions of others.
There's nothing wrong.
I mean, we talk about it.
We don't talk about it as muchas we used to.
We talk about the secondopinion that if you get a
diagnosis from a doctor, youshould go get a second opinion.
And you're going to get thatsecond opinion because you're
(20:56):
going to make importantdecisions based on that first
opinion.
And you're going to get thatsecond opinion because you're
going to make importantdecisions based on that first
opinion.
And so you want to make surethat somebody else with the same
or better qualifications, withthe same or better experience is
going to come to the sameopinion.
And critical thinking wouldjust tell you hey, you know,
(21:19):
thank you for your opinion.
I'm going to double check that,because this is my body and
this is my life and these are mychoices, not yours.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, so critical thinking is really again just
for the person, really, becausesomeone could, let's say, let's
say, one person is atheist andone person is religious, if, if
(22:00):
both of them were criticalthinkers.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I mean, in the end there's no right or wrong,
there's just judgment of theother well, there you go and
let's, let's just let's put thefence there.
You know, I call it a fencewhere.
Where does my boundaries endand your boundaries begin?
What's my business and whatisn't my business?
Right, what you want to believeis none of my business.
(22:30):
I can come up with all kinds ofreasons why, oh, your behavior
is going to affect me.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But it's really not.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's really not.
You're allowed to believewhatever you believe.
If I respect you as a being,then I'm aware that there's a
boundary here and my controllingof your thoughts is going
beyond the boundary.
It's outside my bounds.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So let's, let's take your example I think as long as
it's not hurting anyone, youknow what's not hurting anyone
well, your beliefs aren't likehurting hurting me or you know
they're not being imposed on asection of people.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
To me, that's where we need to engage critical
thinking even more.
A belief, by its definition, issomething you can't prove.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
A belief, by its definition, is a kind of opinion
which basically says based oneverything I know right now,
this is my conclusion.
Unfortunately, people embracetheir opinions as if they're
(23:49):
facts and then they cling tothem, and this is what I say.
I've said this a lot in thepast.
We need to keep in mind thatopinions should be temporary.
An opinion inherent in sayingthis is my opinion is to say,
based on what information I'vecollected so far and I haven't
collected all the information Icould and, more importantly, I
haven't collected all theinformation that I might collect
(24:11):
sometime in the future, and soI'm not going to embrace this
opinion as fact.
I'm not going to fight for myopinion.
It's just an opinion based onincomplete knowledge.
Opinions are temporary and if Iapproach all opinions that way,
well, then I'm not trying toconvince anybody.
(24:33):
I'm not going to engage in a lotof arguments.
In fact I'm going to be helpfulto others, because when
somebody says to me this is myopinion and sometimes they say
it in a lot firmer ways thanit's an opinion Often I get told
that things are this way and Iknow, because of the nature of
the question, that it's just anopinion.
(24:53):
Like you know, the conclusionpeople come to to be an atheist
or to be a believer of some kind, right?
Um, it's just an opinion basedon your experience to this point
and the way you interpret thatexperience.
Because neither candefinitively, within the context
(25:18):
of our world, prove their point.
They can't prove it factuallycorrect, right?
If you can't prove it that it'sfactually correct, then it's an
opinion.
If you cling to it, it's abelief.
So when people start talkingabout beliefs and when people
(25:38):
start talking about opinions,now for me using what I've
learned in critical thinking.
I just mostly back away.
I just mostly smile and nod,because, whether or not they're
trying to convince me of theiropinion, I know it's an opinion.
And because it's an opinion, Idon't have to take it on.
And if I like the person, or Itrust the person, or I see value
(26:03):
in the person's opinion, I'mgoing to ask a simple question
what do you base that on?
Tell me what you know.
Tell me what facts you'rerelying on.
Now I'm using my own ability tocritically listen to what they
have to say.
I don't have to let it in, Ican listen to it.
And if what they say is logicaland what they say has some kind
(26:28):
of factual basis to it, wellnow I just got smarter, right
Now.
I just learned something.
Right Now I just grew a littlebit.
So it costs me nothing to listento someone's opinion, as long
as I'm aware that it's anopinion.
It's temporary, it's based onwhat they know so far and they
(26:51):
might feel very strongly aboutit, and that's really more a
question of their self love, Ithink, than anything else.
But I don't have to take it on,I don't have to agree with it.
And when I get really good atunderstanding the difference
between opinions and facts and Iget really good at spotting the
(27:16):
difference between conclusionsand opinions and incremental
facts, right, then it becomesreally easy for me not to take
on somebody else's opinion andallow them to have it without my
judgment, without my concern,without my, because it doesn't
(27:39):
affect me.
As long as people are out therevoicing opinions without the
intention of trying to changeeach other, yeah, well, what's
wrong with that?
That's just good conversation,right.
But when we feel likesomebody's trying to change us
or we feel like we need tochange, those are just signs
(27:59):
that you know, yeah, I shouldprobably do some more research.
I should probably do some morelooking.
I should always remember thatmy opinions are temporary.
I don't know if this makessense.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
No, it doesn't.
I'm just really playing devil'sadvocate here.
That's good, but, and I think,if that's all it is and we're
just, you know, making decisionsfor ourselves, hopefully not
hurting anybody in the process,not trying to change others,
(28:34):
then what is the point ofcritical thinking?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
The point of critical thinking?
The point of critical thinkingis growth.
The point of critical thinkingis acquiring new important
information every day that helpsyou get closer and closer to
the answers that you're seekingand not find yourself muddled up
in in falsities and mistakenlogic and and confused thinking.
(29:11):
It helps me make better choicesfor me me in my life if I am
more open.
I think that that's to me, thewonderful conclusion of good
critical thinking is openness.
Right people who are open tonew ideas, knowing that their
(29:36):
opinions are temporary, thattheir beliefs are malleable,
changeable, adjustable, that youcan believe in something, but
it's important to believe inwhat it is.
Like.
I use the phrase it's importantto trust people, but trust
(29:56):
people to be people, right, andpeople act the way people act.
So trust them, but trust thatthey can be confused, they can
be ill-intended, they can be outthere attempting to satisfy
their needs.
You know you've got to justtrust people to be what they are
(30:17):
, which is prettyself-interested, right and
pretty self-focused.
Yeah, and if you're interactingwith human beings with that
understanding right, thenthey're much less of a threat to
you mentally when we start toown our opinions and we start to
attach self-worth to ouropinions.
(30:40):
If our opinions now meansomething about me, then
emotions are going to getinvolved.
If your opinion means somethingabout you in my mind, if I am
using your opinions to judge you, using your opinions to judge
(31:02):
you or using your opinionsinterpreting them as some attack
on me then I'm going to getemotional and I'm going to react
.
But when I can criticallyrealize your opinions are your
opinions.
They've got nothing to do withme.
They're based on yourexperience and, quite frankly, I
don't really have to care.
Then you can run off with youropinion and, quite frankly, I
don't really have to care.
(31:22):
Then you can run off with youropinion and I'm pretty safe
because it doesn't affect me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I think, in a perfect world without judgment which
will never exist but in aperfect world without judgment,
critical thinking makes sensefor yourself, for your own
person, um.
But when we live in this worldof um judgment about people that
(31:53):
think differently than us oract differently than than me,
right, um, I think.
I think critical thinking isused as almost on my world.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It's been used as a weapon, you know well, yeah, I
think it's important to see thatthat dynamic right like when
you say in a world withoutjudgment, my world can be
without judgment because I'm notengaging judgment but, that's
(32:32):
the best I can do yeah.
I can only control me and if Ican spot judgment when it's
coming at me, it creates kind ofimmunity for me.
Right Like I see you judging meand I don't really care yeah.
Right, especially if I canunderstand that what you're
judging me about or on is reallya function of the information
(32:58):
you've accumulated and thesignificance it holds for you in
your self-meaning right.
If it means a lot to you,you're going to be very
emotional.
You're going to be veryaggressive.
If it doesn't mean a lot to you, you're going to be indifferent
about it.
You probably won't even talkabout those kinds of opinions.
But I can control my ownjudgment so I can live in a
(33:22):
world without judgment, becauseI'm not judging.
It doesn't mean I won't bejudged by others, but that's
again.
That's trusting people to bepeople.
That's what they're going to doyeah um, I believe that it's a
really, it's really essential tosee that there are aspects of
(33:43):
my mind that are under mycontrol and that I should use my
best efforts to use them well.
And I think it's this cluttered, this cluttered idea that
people that they start toconfuse their opinions with
(34:05):
other opinions and they'reconfusing their emotions with
their opinions and they'reconfusing their beliefs with
their opinions and they'reconfusing facts with opinions,
and that's really one of those.
One of those really frustratingthings is when people in
authority offer opinions as ifthey're facts yeah it can become
really confusing to the personwho receives that but,
(34:28):
these are just really, reallybasic ideas that will help me be
calmer.
They will help me be more open.
Yeah, they help me be lessjudgmental, right, and they will
give me say it this way.
(34:49):
They give me time, they give methe opportunity.
When I hear somebody, in avehement tone, voicing their
opinion, and I immediatelyrecognize it as an opinion that
they feel very strongly about,then I've given myself a few
seconds to not respond, to nothave my emotions triggered, to
(35:14):
not see their opinion as havinganything to do with me, even
when they're screaming it at me,as having anything to do with
me, even when they're screamingit at me.
If I can create those couple ofseconds in there where I can see
it for what it is, that's whenI have the opportunity to make a
choice.
Do I want to engage in anargument about something neither
(35:35):
of us can prove?
Would I rather show you respectand, in doing so, demand
respect and calm thecircumstance down and in that
way, once I'm calm and I'msending them that unspoken
(35:57):
message that this doesn't haveto be a fight unspoken message
that this doesn't have to be afight right, then we both have
the opportunity to step awayfrom judgment, to step away from
passionate emotions and go backto thinking again Hmm, I didn't
know that fact.
Or hmm, what about this fact?
(36:20):
Fact, and we can shareknowledge and both of us grow
right.
Nobody ever changed their mindbecause somebody yelled at them
yeah right and when somebodyyells
at you.
I mean the conversation we'rehaving started there, didn't?
My experience with criticalthinking is that people use it
(36:42):
as a weapon, right, and yeah,sure, there are people out there
doing that because they havestrong opinions that they
emotionally feel tied to,because they seem to have a lot
of meaning about themselves.
And if they don't voice thatopinion with that kind of
passion, then they'recompromising themselves.
And if you don't accept myopinion, then you're insulting
(37:05):
me, and so those people mightpull two or three facts out of
their hat and blast them at youbecause you're in no position to
argue against those facts.
Right, and then you feel likeyou need to pull back and that
you have somehow been made tofeel like you're less than a
fully integrative person, andthey have exercised some
(37:30):
momentary feeling of superiority, and three seconds later both
of you are feeling really lousyabout the interaction both of
you are feeling really lousyabout the interaction.
I think critical thinking Ithink the point you've made is
really important.
You don't engage criticalthinking so that you can change
(37:50):
other people.
You engage critical thinking soyou can protect your mind, so
that you can formulate goodopinions, and it's all of those
solid opinions, knowledge andawareness that lead to great
choices, and that, to me, iswhat's essential for making
(38:11):
choices.
Sorry, why are you sorry?
Well, I think you want to endthis conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Only because we've got to go do meditation.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Well, I think we could go on and on about this.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Well, I think we will .
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Certainly, I think there's lots of things left to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, no, I really.
I have enjoyed this more than Ithought I would.
Question period with Hilary Lee.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You have a wonderfully perceptive mind.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
All right, we'll see you later.
We hope you enjoyed today'spodcast and that maybe it helped
even a little.
If you have any questions, wewould love you to send them
along in an email to info atpsalmhypnosiscom.
Thank you for being part of theState of Mind community.
For more information abouthypnosis and the various online
(39:16):
or in-person services we provide, please visit our website,
wwwsomhypnosiscom.
The link will be in the notesbelow.
While you are there, why don'tyou book a free one-hour journey
, meeting with Hillary or Les,to learn more about what
hypnosis is and how you mightuse it to make your life what
you want it to be?
Bye for now.
(39:36):
Talk to you tomorrow.
Welcome and thank you for joining us for Coffee with
Hilary and Les.
Brought to you by the State ofMind Hypnosis and Training
Center located in the heart ofthe Kawartha Lakes.
This is our almost dailycommunity podcast about the mind
and how we all might change itin the most simple and helpful
(00:30):
ways.
Every day we sit staring at thelake and sipping our coffee,
chatting about hypnosis and howto make those meaningful
adjustments to our state of mind, Because nothing's more
important than your state ofmind, because nothing's more
important than your state ofmind and the Sun has burned away
(00:55):
.
The fog was foggy, we couldn'tsee past the dock, and now we
can see right across, and, andthe sun is shining in my face.
Life is good.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Face is glowing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's kind of like you know, clearing away the fog of
life as a segue into our topic.
Yes, the last time we did apodcast, we talked a little bit
about critical thinking.
We just sort of touched on it.
We said we should do something.
Hillary said I think we shoulddo something on critical
(01:33):
thinking.
Yes, and she's been sufferingresistance ever since.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I think you know, and I said this yesterday and the
day before, I think myresistance with it is I hear
about it a lot, but how do I putthis?
It hasn't been said to me inpositive ways, right?
(02:10):
So I always think that criticalthinking is judgy people, right
?
So it hasn't been like a nicething in my life.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
They probably were being judgy yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I.
So I associated criticalthinkers with judgy people, and
that's not saying that I'm not acritical thinker at times, um,
but um, you know, I've hadpeople say, like you know, I
live in a bubble.
I think I mentioned that lasttime.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think that might be a good place to start.
You know, it's very easy forsome people to see flaws in
ideas flaws in ideas.
Flaws in logic, because somepeople are well let's.
(03:12):
I think it's very topicspecific.
I think people who areinterested in certain topics can
be really hyper focused onprecision and accuracy in the
way people think, and so if it'ssomething that you really know
a lot about, you know you'regoing to quickly correct other
(03:35):
people, and I think that'sreally where the problem kicks
in.
You know, it was said to me along time ago and it's it's a
huge idea, I think, for all ofus.
Would you rather be right or behappy?
mm-hmm would you rather be rightor be happy?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
and I've turned that into.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
You know the only thing right gets you is alone.
And it's really kind of truethat if you're focused on being
the one who's right, you want towin arguments.
You're not really payingattention to the dynamic between
(04:22):
you and the other person andwhat that's doing to your
relationship.
And I think you know um,critical thinking can be a tool
that some people use againstothers in their pursuit of being
right yeah, I think about thelast four years.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Right, how we see so many people having fallen into
this and just being alonebecause they they can't converse
with other people very wellbecause everybody wants to be
right and there ends up beingclashing well, everything
becomes an argument, doesn't it?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And that's the unfortunate thing and you know
I'm raising my hand here, I'mguilty of this I'm one of those
people that has certainlyenjoyed that momentary, fleeting
experience of superiority thatsuddenly results in loneliness.
(05:31):
Yeah Right, it's interestinghow people are quick to react to
others' mistaken understandings.
I think that there's a programunder there that we acquire
(05:55):
honestly really from our parentsprobably Usually our parents,
sometimes a teacher.
You know, when I was teachingat Trent, one of the things
students said to me because Iguess maybe I had grown in this,
(06:16):
I had started to see thingsdifferently and act differently.
But you know, I got complimentedby a student that they're used
to professors that are alwaystrying to prove how smart they
are, and they were.
They were happy that I wasreally more focused on their
learning than I was at lookingsmart, and I think that that's
(06:40):
when I really fell deeply intothe Socratic method.
I don't think you canunderstand what you do know
unless you know you're given theopportunity to consider it and
express it, and so I really likethe idea of asking a question
and spending time on thatquestion and then bringing those
(07:04):
thoughts together into thelearning, and I find that to be
really useful way to do things.
You know, I I certainly canrelate to having experiences of
(07:24):
other people taking theirknowledge and using it on me as
an attempt to really justexercise their superiority, and
so I can understand why astudent stepping into a
classroom in a college oruniversity, or even had kids in
(07:49):
grade school and really feellike the person that's been
empowered to instruct them isreally just a little bit caught
up in their ego at the moment.
I'm not sure where this isgoing because we were.
(08:09):
we were talking about criticalthinking, but I think it's it's
an important aside for us tomaybe keep that in mind as we
proceed to talk about theseideas that the purpose is not in
in look how I can use my mind.
Its purpose is in how might weall use our minds more
(08:34):
effectively for ourselves, howmight we use our minds in a way
to protect ourselves from thosewho would attack us, from those
who would attack us, those whowould manipulate us, those who
would really attempt to controlus?
I guess that's why I lovecritical thinking is because I
(09:04):
really see this constant flow ofinformation that really is
keeping us in line and keepingus under control and keeping us
doing the same thing we didyesterday.
And doing things in a way thatdoesn't cause other people fear
or concern You're making that,considering face, I guess I
(09:38):
wonder about the in-linestatement.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Are you saying that critical thinking keeps us in
line?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
No, I think critical thinking allows us to choose
what line we want to be in.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Critical thinking allows us to ask the question
why is this person saying thisto me, right?
Why is this the dominantmessage that's in the news today
?
Why are politicians sayingthese kinds of things?
Why are medical doctors doingthese kinds of things?
I believe that criticalthinking has to have an element
(10:24):
of skepticism in it.
It starts with a?
Well, you know what does thismean to me, and is this truthful
?
Is this accurate?
Well, let's consider.
You know, one of the thingsthat's been going on for the
last few days is that,apparently, people are eating
(10:45):
dogs and cats because people inauthority are making qualitative
(11:09):
, broad-sweeping statements,trying to influence people so
they can get what they want,which is elected, and how do
people protect themselves fromthat?
Like you can laugh off that,which appears to be obvious and,
you know, appears then to beridiculous but I think a lot of
(11:51):
people smarter than the rest ofus.
No, no, I don't think a criticalthinker is smarter.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I think that it requires a certain capacity for
cognition.
You do need to think, but Ithink it's a critical thinker or
a non-critical thinker.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It's a tool that they use or don't use, and I believe
it's a tool that we all use invarying degrees for certain
things.
That's the critical factor.
We talk about a mind model,right model.
The mind does a conscious mindand a subconscious mind and an
unconscious mind, and it has acritical factor which is almost
(12:39):
like a sentinel between yourconscious mind and your
unconscious mind.
Your conscious mind is outthere, perceiving and receiving
information, and receiving otherpeople's behaviors and words
and interpreting that, and theconscious mind is is there to
say you know, I'm not lettingjust anything into my
(13:01):
subconscious mind.
The critical factor is sayingthat when new ideas come my way,
I have to see how they fit intomy otherwise existing
understanding of everything.
And the critical factor doesn'tlet things flow through quickly
(13:22):
except under certain conditions,and one of those conditions is
the words of authority.
It's why the subconscious mindis so affected by the words of
your doctor or the words of yourprofessor, or the words of your
clergy person or the words ofyour parents.
These are authorities in yourlife, these are people that we
(13:45):
just assume they know whatthey're talking about, and so we
don't put a lot of filters onthose words.
We don't put a lot of screeningon those words and that's
really normal.
It's not always helpful For mesometimes.
One of the biggest shifts I seein my clients is when we just
(14:07):
talk about the reframe thatparents can be wrong, that your
parents can love you to the moonand back.
Your parents can have doneeverything they could possibly
do for you.
It doesn't mean that everythingthey do and say is right.
And when people are able toaccept that their parents are
(14:28):
allowed to make mistakes, thatthey yeah, they probably made
mistakes, yeah, they probablywere wrong sometimes, then the
subconscious mind can say, well,that makes sense and that makes
my parents normal.
There's nothing wrong with them.
So I can re-examine some of thestuff I've taken on from my
(14:52):
parents.
Right, we love our parents somuch.
Right, we try to emulate them,even when we're not even
conscious of that.
We we see them.
I mean, heck, before we wereable to have sort of cogent
thought, we were being cared forby them, we were being
protected by them, we were beingloved by them.
(15:14):
It's really normal, if you're ina situation where your parents
are loving you and caring foryou, that you adore them and you
emulate them and you mimic themand become like them.
That's just really reallynormal.
But that's one of those placeswhere critical thinking factors
in, because there's lots ofpeople out there who didn't have
(15:35):
that.
There's lots of people outthere that can't claim to have
had parents that were thatloving.
There's lots of people outthere who can't feel confident
that their parents had theirbest interests in mind.
Right, there are some peopleout there who are really quick
to agree when I say, parents canbe wrong and there are some
(16:20):
people.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Okay, this is the right way to think or this is
the wrong way to think.
The reason why I ask is youknow?
The other day I asked you knowwhat about a person that you
know believes in fairies orsomething right?
They love their backyard, theylove their forest and they just
(16:41):
really would love the thoughtthat fairies are in the forest
right and they feel like theybelieve in that.
Is that person not having anycritical thought and we are to
(17:03):
judge them as wrong, and why?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
well, first of all, I'm gonna.
I have come to the conclusionthat judgment in any form is
wasted mental effort.
Judgment serves no purpose.
And if I'm going to beconcerned with what you're
thinking, then I'm really tryingto control you.
(17:28):
And there's no way in the worldthat you can control somebody
and love them at the same time.
Inherently, in trying tocontrol somebody, you're saying
you're wrong, you're not goodenough, you're not thinking
clearly, you're not being theperson you should be.
In trying to control others, weare moving outside our real
(17:53):
sphere of influence.
So I think critical thinkingdoes not have to violate the
integrity of others.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So it's really for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Absolutely To move through the world.
Don't don't.
Critical thinking is a toolthat you use to help you
understand the world from yourperspective and make sure that
you don't take in falsehoods,things that aren't true.
(18:27):
That doesn't mean that what Ithink is true is the truth.
What it means is what I thinkis true has made sense to my
critical mind and it fits withmy other thoughts and beliefs.
At the same time, criticalthinking is the method you might
(18:49):
use to start changing thosebeliefs, because you would start
to be more logical.
Logic is one of the tools ofthinking that we can apply and
that we find is very useful.
When we're trying to engagecritical thinking, logic often
(19:27):
exposes to us our biases.
Our biases are the things werepredisposed to believe.
That might not be true.
You know, and using thatauthority analogy, that's, you
know, we're just predisposedwhen the doctor says you have
this disease and this diseaseand this is going on in your
blood and this is going on inyour urine and therefore we have
to take this pill.
Right, that's that's authority,just bypassing your own ability
(19:48):
to think about you and yourbody, and you accept it because
you don't have the educationthey have, you don't have the
background they have, they're ina position of authority as a
doctor, and so you think theyknow things that you can't know,
and you essentially hand overyour decision-making capacity to
(20:10):
a quote-unquote expert.
Critical thinking just allowsyou to use your own ability of
logic, your own ability to learnand acquire information, your
own ability to understand,before you accept the statements
(20:35):
and conclusions of others.
There's nothing wrong.
I mean, we talk about it.
We don't talk about it as muchas we used to.
We talk about the secondopinion that if you get a
diagnosis from a doctor, youshould go get a second opinion.
And you're going to get thatsecond opinion because you're
(20:56):
going to make importantdecisions based on that first
opinion.
And you're going to get thatsecond opinion because you're
going to make importantdecisions based on that first
opinion.
And so you want to make surethat somebody else with the same
or better qualifications, withthe same or better experience is
going to come to the sameopinion.
And critical thinking wouldjust tell you hey, you know,
(21:19):
thank you for your opinion.
I'm going to double check that,because this is my body and
this is my life and these are mychoices, not yours.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, so critical thinking is really again just
for the person, really, becausesomeone could, let's say, let's
say, one person is atheist andone person is religious, if, if
(22:00):
both of them were criticalthinkers.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
I mean, in the end there's no right or wrong,
there's just judgment of theother well, there you go and
let's, let's just let's put thefence there.
You know, I call it a fencewhere.
Where does my boundaries endand your boundaries begin?
What's my business and whatisn't my business?
Right, what you want to believeis none of my business.
(22:30):
I can come up with all kinds ofreasons why, oh, your behavior
is going to affect me.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
But it's really not.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's really not.
You're allowed to believewhatever you believe.
If I respect you as a being,then I'm aware that there's a
boundary here and my controllingof your thoughts is going
beyond the boundary.
It's outside my bounds.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So let's, let's take your example I think as long as
it's not hurting anyone, youknow what's not hurting anyone
well, your beliefs aren't likehurting hurting me or you know
they're not being imposed on asection of people.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
To me, that's where we need to engage critical
thinking even more.
A belief, by its definition, issomething you can't prove.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
A belief, by its definition, is a kind of opinion
which basically says based oneverything I know right now,
this is my conclusion.
Unfortunately, people embracetheir opinions as if they're
(23:49):
facts and then they cling tothem, and this is what I say.
I've said this a lot in thepast.
We need to keep in mind thatopinions should be temporary.
An opinion inherent in sayingthis is my opinion is to say,
based on what information I'vecollected so far and I haven't
collected all the information Icould and, more importantly, I
haven't collected all theinformation that I might collect
(24:11):
sometime in the future, and soI'm not going to embrace this
opinion as fact.
I'm not going to fight for myopinion.
It's just an opinion based onincomplete knowledge.
Opinions are temporary and if Iapproach all opinions that way,
well, then I'm not trying toconvince anybody.
(24:33):
I'm not going to engage in a lotof arguments.
In fact I'm going to be helpfulto others, because when
somebody says to me this is myopinion and sometimes they say
it in a lot firmer ways thanit's an opinion Often I get told
that things are this way and Iknow, because of the nature of
the question, that it's just anopinion.
(24:53):
Like you know, the conclusionpeople come to to be an atheist
or to be a believer of some kind, right?
Um, it's just an opinion basedon your experience to this point
and the way you interpret thatexperience.
Because neither candefinitively, within the context
(25:18):
of our world, prove their point.
They can't prove it factuallycorrect, right?
If you can't prove it that it'sfactually correct, then it's an
opinion.
If you cling to it, it's abelief.
So when people start talkingabout beliefs and when people
(25:38):
start talking about opinions,now for me using what I've
learned in critical thinking.
I just mostly back away.
I just mostly smile and nod,because, whether or not they're
trying to convince me of theiropinion, I know it's an opinion.
And because it's an opinion, Idon't have to take it on.
And if I like the person, or Itrust the person, or I see value
(26:03):
in the person's opinion, I'mgoing to ask a simple question
what do you base that on?
Tell me what you know.
Tell me what facts you'rerelying on.
Now I'm using my own ability tocritically listen to what they
have to say.
I don't have to let it in, Ican listen to it.
And if what they say is logicaland what they say has some kind
(26:28):
of factual basis to it, wellnow I just got smarter, right
Now.
I just learned something.
Right Now I just grew a littlebit.
So it costs me nothing to listento someone's opinion, as long
as I'm aware that it's anopinion.
It's temporary, it's based onwhat they know so far and they
(26:51):
might feel very strongly aboutit, and that's really more a
question of their self love, Ithink, than anything else.
But I don't have to take it on,I don't have to agree with it.
And when I get really good atunderstanding the difference
between opinions and facts and Iget really good at spotting the
(27:16):
difference between conclusionsand opinions and incremental
facts, right, then it becomesreally easy for me not to take
on somebody else's opinion andallow them to have it without my
judgment, without my concern,without my, because it doesn't
(27:39):
affect me.
As long as people are out therevoicing opinions without the
intention of trying to changeeach other, yeah, well, what's
wrong with that?
That's just good conversation,right.
But when we feel likesomebody's trying to change us
or we feel like we need tochange, those are just signs
(27:59):
that you know, yeah, I shouldprobably do some more research.
I should probably do some morelooking.
I should always remember thatmy opinions are temporary.
I don't know if this makessense.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
No, it doesn't.
I'm just really playing devil'sadvocate here.
That's good, but, and I think,if that's all it is and we're
just, you know, making decisionsfor ourselves, hopefully not
hurting anybody in the process,not trying to change others,
(28:34):
then what is the point ofcritical thinking?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
The point of critical thinking?
The point of critical thinkingis growth.
The point of critical thinkingis acquiring new important
information every day that helpsyou get closer and closer to
the answers that you're seekingand not find yourself muddled up
in in falsities and mistakenlogic and and confused thinking.
(29:11):
It helps me make better choicesfor me me in my life if I am
more open.
I think that that's to me, thewonderful conclusion of good
critical thinking is openness.
Right people who are open tonew ideas, knowing that their
(29:36):
opinions are temporary, thattheir beliefs are malleable,
changeable, adjustable, that youcan believe in something, but
it's important to believe inwhat it is.
Like.
I use the phrase it's importantto trust people, but trust
(29:56):
people to be people, right, andpeople act the way people act.
So trust them, but trust thatthey can be confused, they can
be ill-intended, they can be outthere attempting to satisfy
their needs.
You know you've got to justtrust people to be what they are
(30:17):
, which is prettyself-interested, right and
pretty self-focused.
Yeah, and if you're interactingwith human beings with that
understanding right, thenthey're much less of a threat to
you mentally when we start toown our opinions and we start to
attach self-worth to ouropinions.
(30:40):
If our opinions now meansomething about me, then
emotions are going to getinvolved.
If your opinion means somethingabout you in my mind, if I am
using your opinions to judge you, using your opinions to judge
(31:02):
you or using your opinionsinterpreting them as some attack
on me then I'm going to getemotional and I'm going to react
.
But when I can criticallyrealize your opinions are your
opinions.
They've got nothing to do withme.
They're based on yourexperience and, quite frankly, I
don't really have to care.
Then you can run off with youropinion and, quite frankly, I
don't really have to care.
(31:22):
Then you can run off with youropinion and I'm pretty safe
because it doesn't affect me.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I think, in a perfect world without judgment which
will never exist but in aperfect world without judgment,
critical thinking makes sensefor yourself, for your own
person, um.
But when we live in this worldof um judgment about people that
(31:53):
think differently than us oract differently than than me,
right, um, I think.
I think critical thinking isused as almost on my world.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It's been used as a weapon, you know well, yeah, I
think it's important to see thatthat dynamic right like when
you say in a world withoutjudgment, my world can be
without judgment because I'm notengaging judgment but, that's
(32:32):
the best I can do yeah.
I can only control me and if Ican spot judgment when it's
coming at me, it creates kind ofimmunity for me.
Right Like I see you judging meand I don't really care yeah.
Right, especially if I canunderstand that what you're
judging me about or on is reallya function of the information
(32:58):
you've accumulated and thesignificance it holds for you in
your self-meaning right.
If it means a lot to you,you're going to be very
emotional.
You're going to be veryaggressive.
If it doesn't mean a lot to you, you're going to be indifferent
about it.
You probably won't even talkabout those kinds of opinions.
But I can control my ownjudgment so I can live in a
(33:22):
world without judgment, becauseI'm not judging.
It doesn't mean I won't bejudged by others, but that's
again.
That's trusting people to bepeople.
That's what they're going to doyeah um, I believe that it's a
really, it's really essential tosee that there are aspects of
(33:43):
my mind that are under mycontrol and that I should use my
best efforts to use them well.
And I think it's this cluttered, this cluttered idea that
people that they start toconfuse their opinions with
(34:05):
other opinions and they'reconfusing their emotions with
their opinions and they'reconfusing their beliefs with
their opinions and they'reconfusing facts with opinions,
and that's really one of those.
One of those really frustratingthings is when people in
authority offer opinions as ifthey're facts yeah it can become
really confusing to the personwho receives that but,
(34:28):
these are just really, reallybasic ideas that will help me be
calmer.
They will help me be more open.
Yeah, they help me be lessjudgmental, right, and they will
give me say it this way.
(34:49):
They give me time, they give methe opportunity.
When I hear somebody, in avehement tone, voicing their
opinion, and I immediatelyrecognize it as an opinion that
they feel very strongly about,then I've given myself a few
seconds to not respond, to nothave my emotions triggered, to
(35:14):
not see their opinion as havinganything to do with me, even
when they're screaming it at me,as having anything to do with
me, even when they're screamingit at me.
If I can create those couple ofseconds in there where I can see
it for what it is, that's whenI have the opportunity to make a
choice.
Do I want to engage in anargument about something neither
(35:35):
of us can prove?
Would I rather show you respectand, in doing so, demand
respect and calm thecircumstance down and in that
way, once I'm calm and I'msending them that unspoken
(35:57):
message that this doesn't haveto be a fight unspoken message
that this doesn't have to be afight right, then we both have
the opportunity to step awayfrom judgment, to step away from
passionate emotions and go backto thinking again Hmm, I didn't
know that fact.
Or hmm, what about this fact?
(36:20):
Fact, and we can shareknowledge and both of us grow
right.
Nobody ever changed their mindbecause somebody yelled at them
yeah right and when somebodyyells
at you.
I mean the conversation we'rehaving started there, didn't?
My experience with criticalthinking is that people use it
(36:42):
as a weapon, right, and yeah,sure, there are people out there
doing that because they havestrong opinions that they
emotionally feel tied to,because they seem to have a lot
of meaning about themselves.
And if they don't voice thatopinion with that kind of
passion, then they'recompromising themselves.
And if you don't accept myopinion, then you're insulting
(37:05):
me, and so those people mightpull two or three facts out of
their hat and blast them at youbecause you're in no position to
argue against those facts.
Right, and then you feel likeyou need to pull back and that
you have somehow been made tofeel like you're less than a
fully integrative person, andthey have exercised some
(37:30):
momentary feeling of superiority, and three seconds later both
of you are feeling really lousyabout the interaction both of
you are feeling really lousyabout the interaction.
I think critical thinking Ithink the point you've made is
really important.
You don't engage criticalthinking so that you can change
(37:50):
other people.
You engage critical thinking soyou can protect your mind, so
that you can formulate goodopinions, and it's all of those
solid opinions, knowledge andawareness that lead to great
choices, and that, to me, iswhat's essential for making
(38:11):
choices.
Sorry, why are you sorry?
Well, I think you want to endthis conversation.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Only because we've got to go do meditation.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Well, I think we could go on and on about this.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Well, I think we will .
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Certainly, I think there's lots of things left to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, no, I really.
I have enjoyed this more than Ithought I would.
Question period with Hilary Lee.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You have a wonderfully perceptive mind.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
All right, we'll see you later.
We hope you enjoyed today'spodcast and that maybe it helped
even a little.
If you have any questions, wewould love you to send them
along in an email to info atpsalmhypnosiscom.
Thank you for being part of theState of Mind community.
For more information abouthypnosis and the various online
(39:16):
or in-person services we provide, please visit our website,
wwwsomhypnosiscom.
The link will be in the notesbelow.
While you are there, why don'tyou book a free one-hour journey
, meeting with Hillary or Les,to learn more about what
hypnosis is and how you mightuse it to make your life what
you want it to be?
Bye for now.
(39:36):
Talk to you tomorrow.
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