November 19, 2025 • 43 mins
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We explore why painful patterns persist and how tiny choice points let us pause, reinterpret, and respond in fair, healthy ways. From childhood conditioning to anger as a fairness signal, we share tools to break autopilot and install better habits.
• habits as automatic programs that free attention
• thoughts as habits and negative loops
• emotions as messages rather than identity
• anger meaning fairness and how to restore it
• childhood experiences shaping core beliefs
• spotting the micro choice point before reaction
• reframing with “there is anger” language
• externalizing feelings and unpacking layers
• shifting interpretations to change behavior
• practical lines to make moments fair
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
We are on the line.
SPEAKER_04 (00:14):
Sun is rising.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
It's a little cloudy here, but yeah, the sun is
starting to peek through.
SPEAKER_04 (00:19):
We've had some days of sun and it makes me happy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (00:24):
Just feel dry.
unknown (00:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Can everyone hear us okay?
Just send that sending that outinto the chat.
Yep, they can hear us.
It's sunny there too.
SPEAKER_04 (00:37):
We've already started talking, so we can ask
up now.
SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
Yeah, let's roll back.
SPEAKER_04 (00:43):
Heather has an idea for topic and she's just gung
home.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
I'm yeah, yeah, that's the word, I guess.
I thought about why do we repeatpainful patterns?
SPEAKER_04 (00:56):
Yeah, we do that, don't we?
I think to me, it's one of myfavorite ways that people come
to hypnosis is at some point oranother, they uh they say, Why
did I do that?
Why did I say that?
Why do I keep doing that?
Why do I keep saying that?
And they they reach a pointwhere their their conscious
mind, their deliberate self,says, Stop it.
(01:20):
And their unconscious self,their subconscious self, says,
Yeah, we're doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yep, exactly.
And then we wonder like, why,why, why, why do I keep doing
this?
We go to therapy, we go tohypnosis, we we discover the
program.
SPEAKER_04 (01:35):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, you know.
Learning psychologists talkabout conditioning and you know
the click were.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
The what?
SPEAKER_04 (01:45):
Click were.
You press a button and thingshappen.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Oh, like a word?
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (01:50):
Yeah, click whir.
And it's like the behavior getsclicked and it happens, right?
And they they talk about youknow, the shaping when we when
we engage and when we learn,that's those really well, that
that's when it becomessubconscious.
I'm getting ahead of myself.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
You're doing a Hillary thing.
SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Yeah, getting ahead of myself.
But yeah, that we have so manysituations in life that we
respond to without thinking,right?
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:22):
You know, I love uh my buddy Brian's he, I'm sure
it's an old definition, and I'veheard it other places, but he
always reminds me of it.
It's you know, habit is actionwithout thought.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, like where did that bag of chips go?
I just put it in my hands.
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
Yeah.
And it's so important to realizethat, you know, that I think
it's amazing we have this depthof mind, right?
I don't know that we would beeven functional beings, let
alone the kinds of successfulbeings that humans are in terms
of building cities and complexmachines and computers and
(03:02):
having a life that is lived on adifferent level because we have
this really deep mind whereparts of it, the deepest parts
of it, are running your bodywithout any effort on your part,
right?
The deepest parts of your mind,that unconscious part of your
mind, is just taking care of allthe stuff that you need to do to
(03:23):
be able to do anything, likebreathing and heart beating, you
know, digestion and metabolism,you know, this this machine that
we're inside, part of our mindis just keeping it running.
Right?
We know from all kinds ofmedical science that you
disconnect the mind from thebody and the body stops, right?
(03:45):
So there's a there's a mind thatruns the body.
But the most amazing part of themind is the part of the mind
that really controls ourbehavior without us having to
try.
And I think the word habit justdoesn't do justice to the whole
idea of the program thathappened.
(04:05):
You know, I I uh I've cookedenough meals for people in my
life that for me, cooking isopening the fridge door,
figuring out what's there, andthen going for it.
And recipes, though I find themfun sometimes and interesting to
try new things, and they theyteach me a lot about the
possibilities.
(04:25):
I tend to just cook out ofhabit.
I tend to just know whensomething's done.
I tend to just know whensomething, you know, could use
this particular spice or thatparticular spice.
It's just that I've cookedthousands of meals for myself
and others.
But to be even more simple, youknow, we all know how to tie our
(04:48):
shoes, but not really.
Because if I asked you to thinkabout it and describe it and
teach it to somebody else, ittakes a little bit of effort.
You know, I I think of, youknow, I saw it so many times in
my years of commuting intoToronto, you know, the person
who is in their car driving towork, sipping a coffee, doing
(05:11):
their makeup, and talking on thephone all at the same time.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:21):
Every one of those behaviors was so well practiced
that it was being done withoutthinking.
It was being done automatically,it was being done as habit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
The conscious mind was not involved.
As soon as we get the consciousmind involved, we get really
messed up sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Well, I think about it like driving standard.
If I even thought about how todraw uh drive a standard, I
would mess it up.
Right?
I'd be in the I'd be in the carsuddenly going, Oh, what what do
I do?
You know, I would sort of testmyself, I guess, uh, airquains,
but I would totally forget to doit.
SPEAKER_04 (06:01):
Shifting gears becomes as natural as using the
turn signal, what I'm thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (06:06):
So the process is really simple.
It's one of practice.
The conscious mind is engagedthe first few times, being very
deliberate.
Yeah, right.
You're being very focused.
Attention is a really cool thingbecause attention is like
shining a light on something,paying attention to what you're
(06:27):
doing, right?
When we're doing new things,doing things that we haven't
done before, haven't done enoughthat we have confidence in them,
right?
Those things require ourconscious mind's engagement.
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Yeah.
In the chat, it's a musclememory.
SPEAKER_04 (06:43):
Well, that's what we reduce it to.
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (06:45):
Because the first time we do it, our conscious
mind's involved, and we fumbleand we make mistakes and we
practice and we do it again andwe do it again and again and
again.
And then at some point, and youknow, people talk about the
magic 10,000 reps, but the pointis at some point you got it.
And not only have you got it, ithas now become a behavior
(07:09):
sufficiently programmed in thesubconscious mind that it can
take place without intention.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
And I don't even think you recognize it when you
get it.
SPEAKER_04 (07:19):
No, because you're so focused on getting there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah.
And then when you think back onwhen did I actually learn this,
you can't even lock on to that.
SPEAKER_04 (07:29):
And it it applies to everything.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (07:32):
Everything.
You know, driving is such anautomatic thing for most people.
Now, I'll use an example thatI've observed over my lifetime.
When women get a new hairdo,they spend a lot of time in the
morning getting it back to theway they want it.
And after a couple of weeks ofputting that effort in every
(07:55):
day, they start to get reallyfast.
They get to the point where theycan do it quickly and do
something else at the same time.
Just when we do something new,it requires focus.
Once we get it down to a habit,then we just do it
automatically.
And we get really comfortablewith that because things go
quickly then.
(08:16):
Things generally go well then.
Generally, we're happy thatwe've got it down.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:24):
And so we're naturally resistant to change.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Yeah.
I thought you were gonna saythat the woman's hairdo goes
back to the way it was before.
SPEAKER_04 (08:33):
Sometimes it does because that's the habit.
That's fast.
We've got that.
I know how to do that.
I can't seem to do this otherthing, so let's just move on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that with cooking.
Tend to cook the same thingsover and over and over.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
I love talking about it when you go shopping.
It's amazing how we all walkthrough the store in the same
pattern, in almost the samefootsteps as we did last time.
Right?
It's the weekly shopping, and Igo through the store aisle by
aisle, the way I always have.
There's so many things we do.
We drive to the store on thesame roads.
(09:09):
There's lots of roads that'llget you there, but we drive to
the store in the same way everytime.
We buy the same things.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:16):
Right?
You don't go to the store everytime and say, okay, what is the
best butter for me to buy?
The cheapest butter.
Well, that becomes the habit.
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:28):
Check the prices.
But it might be that's my brand.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:32):
Right?
Everything gets reduced to ahabit.
Anything that we do over andover and over is reduced to a
habit.
And it's a beautiful thingbecause otherwise we couldn't
accomplish anything.
I mean, if we got up in themorning and had to figure out
how to get dressed every day, wehad to figure out how to get
groomed every day.
We had to figure out, you know,while we were trying to do that,
(09:56):
we had to figure out how to keepour body alive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
That's where I wear my pajamas every day all day.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
It becomes it becomes habit.
And habits, a lot of habits, arereally helpful.
But we're really good atcreating habits, and thoughts
are habits.
And that's that study.
That study that they've done awhole bunch of times, how the
average human being has between60 and 120,000 thoughts in a
(10:25):
day, however you define thought.
And 80% of them were thethoughts he had yesterday, and
90% of those are negative.
It's just a habit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:35):
Thoughts are habits.
The lack of thought becomes ahabit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
The lack of thought.
Oh, when it goes into theunconscious almost like it's
unconscious.
SPEAKER_04 (10:44):
Into the subconscious.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:45):
We're we're slightly aware, but we don't have to be
focused on it.
We don't have to turn ourattention to it.
And while we're doing all thesesubconscious things, that gives
us the ability to focus ourconscious mind and learn new
things.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
It's an amazing machine, this human thing and
the mind that goes with it.
But thoughts are habits.
And thoughts come in all kindsof forms.
I use the word thought toinclude everything from emotions
to interpretations.
These are the big actions of themind, I think, interpreting,
right?
And then triggering an emotion.
(11:20):
And emotions always seek to beresolved.
Emotions are always asking forsomething.
They're asking you to respond.
And that response is neverpushing down.
The response your emotion wantsis never to be ignored.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yeah.
So why do we ignore them sowell?
I mean, some we don't ignore,but you know, let's yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
Some get right in our face.
They become feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
So, in terms of the painful patterns idea, you know,
there's painful environmentsthat we put ourselves in,
painful relationships, painfulthought patterns.
No, I mean all kinds, I guess.
I guess it can be anything.
And painful is subjective, Iguess, right?
It's different for everybody.
But when we go back tochildhood, I think that's where
(12:19):
those patterns get sort ofinstilled in us, and how we play
them out now is based on whathappened to us as a child, what
kind of environment we were in,what kind of relationship did we
have with our parents or familyor friends, you know?
SPEAKER_04 (12:37):
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's it is thatsimple.
Responding to it is hard.
When things are repeated,consider that practice, consider
that rehearsal.
When things happen often, youautomatically learn how to cope,
how to respond, how to avoid.
Most of the time it's avoiding,right?
(12:58):
Seldom is it engaging.
Any kind of negative emotion isquickly, you know, flight.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:08):
Any kind of negative emotion kicking in the
sympathetic nervous system, thatfight or flight or freeze kind
of mode, most of the time,flight is just a really great
idea.
I mean, look around you.
That's the way nature tends towork.
It is drawn towards good thingsand it runs away from bad
things.
SPEAKER_02 (13:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:29):
We are part of nature.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:32):
And it is natural for us to avoid that which is
uncomfortable, unpleasant,painful, hurtful.
And seldom do we actually go tofight mode.
And that's why it works so wellfor those who go to fight mode.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
It works well?
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
Yes, it works well.
This is the automatic responsewith anger.
All you got to do is look at alittle kid with anger and they
go running, right?
Doesn't matter who the littlekid is.
You look at a kid and you givethem that angry face and they're
gone.
You automatically kick in theirflight mode.
When people learn that when Iturn on my fight mode, other
(14:08):
people turn on their flightmode.
And I get what I want.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (14:12):
And so that becomes a habit.
That's why people who get angryall the time, it's just their,
it's just their habit.
In fact, some people to thepoint they come in and they see
me and they say, I want to stopgetting angry all the time.
They see it as a habit, and itis so well honed and so
programmed deeply that theybasically hurt their life with
(14:33):
it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
It's such a balance, you know, like the idea of
anger.
I think it's so important tohave anger and to release anger
in healthy ways.
But I also see the other end ofthe spectrum in my practice
where people are so scared of beshowing anger that they just let
people walk all over them or orthey're they're controlled in
(14:55):
relationships or same thingthough.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:59):
It's a habit.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:00):
It's a habit.
Flight tends to work.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah.
And that's comfortable, Isuppose.
So the ain't the person that isangry and gets away with it, or
get you know what I mean, likegets away with it, it it issues
a feeling of feeling comfortablebecause they get what they want.
SPEAKER_04 (15:16):
But also I wouldn't use the word comfort.
I don't mean to contradict, butI wouldn't use the word comfort.
I would use the word safe.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
So safe.
Yeah.
And so that then that safetyword can be applied to the
person who shies away from angerbecause they would get in
trouble.
And so now they're feeling safe.
So everybody's feeling safe, butnot for good reason.
SPEAKER_04 (15:40):
So when two people are angry with each other, both
of them are showing anger.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
Right.
You know, we call that boxing.
When two people are both inanger mode, they have a fight.
Some people learn to avoidfights, right?
Some people have learned toenjoy fights.
Some people believe if I don'tfight, I'm not being myself.
But of course they are.
They can be anything they want,but it's a habit.
(16:09):
It's a well-honed program.
Two people get angry, usuallythe smaller one walks away.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:20):
Right?
Yeah.
So to step back from all ofthat, right?
To break the habit is to changethe interpretation of what's
going on.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
But you have to do it so often that it becomes the
new habit.
The new habit.
SPEAKER_04 (16:34):
Or you can go to hypnosis and see how it's a
habit and see how there's amoment there when you make that
choice.
It's become so practiced thatthat moment isn't even
measurable.
It's that fast.
It just seems to happen.
But there is, before it happens,there is a tiny, tiny, tiny
(16:57):
moment where you can see thechoice, right?
So I'm driving down the street,I got my kids in the car, and
some guy, quite literally, makesa really dangerous left-hand
turn in front of me, and I hitthe horn.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Canadian anger.
SPEAKER_04 (17:11):
Yeah.
Canadian anger.
And I hit the horn.
Now, there's a lot of conditionsgoing on, like I'm driving a
minivan, right?
But I hit the horn and I didn'tjust hit the horn.
I held the horn, probably for agood count of two.
Right.
And then he slams on the brakesand jumps out of his car.
(17:32):
Stands on his brakes.
He stops right in front of me.
It's all I can do to stop ontime.
And he's getting out of his carand he is so angry, right?
And so I jumped out of my car.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Oh my God.
SPEAKER_04 (17:43):
Right?
And then he saw me.
I was a foot taller than him.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
You don't mean to laugh.
SPEAKER_04 (17:48):
Well, it's it's just very, very human, right?
Let's not judge anybody.
Yeah.
Right?
Let's just see how humid it is,right?
He was in such a hurry that hehad to cut in front of me
dangerously.
But now he's angry, so he's notin a hurry anymore.
He could park his car rightthere in the middle of the road
and he's got time to get out.
This is not rational behavior.
(18:09):
This is not thought out.
This is habit.
And then he instantly sees meand he freezes.
Like his eyes are bugging outand he's freezes.
And I just, I was angry.
So I just pointed at him and Isaid, Get your ass back in your
car.
And he then swore at me and gotback in his car and drove away.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:29):
Right.
So there's a moment there.
He his his reaction happened sofast.
He went to anger so fast that hesort of lost himself, lost
control, stopped his car in themiddle of the road, parked it,
and got out.
Think about how automatic it isto be able to put your car and
park.
He he he's able to do that whilehe was this angry.
(18:50):
Yeah.
Stop, park, get out.
Right.
And then in that moment, herealized fight is not the right
alternative here.
Now, I'm not saying I would havehurt him, and I'm not saying
that there was gonna be a fistfight.
I'm just saying that hisinterpretation of the
circumstance changedinstantaneously as soon as he
(19:10):
saw that fight wasn't a goodoption.
And that is the moment.
I tell that story to realizethere's a moment there when we
make the choice.
Oh, choice.
He made a choice, saw it was thewrong choice, and made another.
Right?
There's a moment there where wecan slow down the habit.
SPEAKER_02 (19:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:34):
There's a moment there where we can, if we can
grab that moment and be notprogrammed in that moment, in
that moment, we have theopportunity.
That's the difference between,you know, happiness and tragedy,
that moment.
In that moment, we have aninterpretation of the
(19:54):
circumstance and it causes us toclick in, click work, click in
an emotional response.
Right.
And that's when, when we fall tohabit, we can get ourselves in
trouble.
So I tell that story onlybecause the idea is that he made
a different choice.
He responded in habit and thenevaluated instantaneously the
(20:17):
circumstance and then madeanother choice.
That's what's possible.
That's what's possible for us tostart to stop the automatic
reaction and be more attentive,aware, and deliberate in the
choices that we make.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
What if we have every reason to be angry?
I mean, not going out therebeating people up, but like, you
know, something happens and andwe feel angry and we want to
resolve it, right?
We don't always have to make thechoice to step away from it.
SPEAKER_04 (20:50):
Well, there's there's the other habit, right?
So if our habit is to turn toanger, then anger can escalate
and then more habits kick in.
unknown (21:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
It's just to me important to see them all as
habits.
SPEAKER_02 (21:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:04):
And habit can be changed.
Habit can be stopped by simplybecoming conscious to your own
choices.
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (21:12):
So this is where I think what happens quickly is an
emotion becomes a feeling,becomes a physical response.
And then they get all pulledtogether, and then they become
an automatic response.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Yeah.
And I think where we get caughtup, uh, there's there's there's
anger that is, let's say,founded in the moment.
And then there's anger, at leastwhat I what I see with my
clients, that there's angerwhere it gets kind of sticky and
where they want to startchanging it is when it becomes
habitual, when it's happeningall the time.
(21:45):
But what stands out is that thatanger, when it's that specific
anger, it's usually tied to acore belief that they have about
themselves that is on that isnot a good core belief.
I had someone in the past, theyhad, yeah, just a really
negative, negative core beliefabout themselves to the point
(22:09):
where they would just look atthemselves and call themselves
bad names and stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (22:13):
Where does that belief come from?
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
That comes from childhood.
SPEAKER_04 (22:16):
Well, that's when it took place.
SPEAKER_00 (22:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:18):
But where does it come from?
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
The subconscious.
Is that what you mean?
SPEAKER_04 (22:21):
Yeah, that's what I'm driving at.
I'm driving at the idea that abelief is just a well-practiced
interpretation.
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:28):
Your beliefs come from repeated experiences.
Experiences are made up of threethings: an event, an
interpretation, and an emotion.
So things happen and weinterpret them.
We can't, we might interpretthem incorrectly, we might
interpret them correctly, wemight interpret them both,
partially correctly, partiallyincorrectly.
(22:49):
But then it triggers an emotion.
And that emotion is meant to bea message.
It's not meant to be a state ofbeing.
When we don't hear the messageof the emotion and we cling to
the emotion, get trapped in theemotion, maybe, it becomes a
feeling.
We start to experience in ourbody.
You know, they say emotions, youknow, feelings are where
(23:11):
emotions meet the body.
And people are different.
You know, some people feel angerin their chest, some feel anger
in their forehead, some feelanger in their throat.
We feel it in different parts ofour body depending on who we are
and what the situation is.
So it's important to see howfeelings can change, but the
emotion is still there.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:30):
And then the magic is interpreting the emotion
before you act on it.
That's that moment, that momentyou can grab.
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:38):
Right?
That's that old Buddhisttechnique that you know the
monks practiced all the time.
Instead of saying, I am angry.
And claiming it, they would say,There is anger.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:49):
Instead of saying, I am sad.
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
And claiming it.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:54):
Yeah.
That locks it in, right?
SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:57):
That that claims it.
That's saying that's mine.
That's me right now.
SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (24:01):
They say, well, there's sadness.
I it's this is what I'm workingon right now for the next few
reframes on the school isunderstanding that emotions have
meaning.
And the response to thoseemotions can change from time to
time.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (24:15):
Unfortunately, they tend to become habits.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
And I think it's important no matter what, no
matter what kind of visual ormetaphor or thought helps you do
this, to separate out the thefeeling and emotion.
Because, you know, the monksmight say, there is.
And I suppose when I think aboutit, when I have clients
(24:40):
literally pull, I swear to God,it's actually happening.
Like they're moving energy.
We're so magical, right?
They're pulling this energy outof their chest, out of their
head, out of their heart, out oftheir arm, whatever, whatever.
And they're placing it in frontof them.
There it is out there, right?
There's they're separating itfrom the body.
They're not they're not claimingit anymore.
(25:01):
And then on top of that, whatdoes that look like out there?
Right.
So now it's totally different.
It's not me.
It's not, it looks like chains,it looks like bricks, it looks
like a wall, it looks like ablob, you know, muck.
SPEAKER_04 (25:14):
A black spiky rock.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:16):
Yeah.
I've heard all those kinds ofdescriptions.
And the ones who have a hardtime pulling them, pulling it
out of themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Imagine a child pulling it backwards into the
body.
SPEAKER_04 (25:26):
Well, that's it's a part.
So let's say that the naturalthing is that there is anger.
Then when you say, I am angry,that's when you're actually
taking it from outside andputting it in.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
Yeah, really.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're claiming it.
Was it always outside of it?
SPEAKER_04 (25:46):
Well, it was it was an outside event.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:49):
This is an event, and I'm interpreting it a
certain way.
And then when I interpret itthat way and I attach that
emotion, that emotion nowtriggers those kinds of
interpretations.
Yeah.
Because they're a clump.
They're they're they're threebig pieces in what you call
experience.
And experience is what reallydefines us, it's what turns
things into habits.
(26:10):
Right?
Tying those shoelaces 150 timesuntil you can do it without
looking.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:17):
Until you can do it without thinking.
When you can do it and not evenremember if you did it and have
to check, right?
That's just habit.
That's just repeated, takingsomething that was at first very
conscious and deliberate andmaking it subconscious.
I don't have to put my attentionon that anymore.
And so when you say it happensin childhood, you know, I think
(26:39):
there's two big importantconditions about childhood.
The first one is we're prettyempty.
We're just gaining experiences.
We don't have the bazillions ofexperiences that we have as
adults.
And we're very, very reliant oneveryone around us.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
Yeah.
I mean, if if we're not takencare of in the way that we want
to be taken care of, then wefeel like we're gonna expire.
SPEAKER_04 (27:03):
And then a child probably learns flight.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:07):
To withdraw, to apologize, to I'm sorry, I'm
sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, runto the room and hide.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:14):
All those things.
Because, you know, first of all,these these adults control my
life, and second of all, they'rea whole lot bigger than me.
And third of all, the last timeI really stood up for myself, I
got spanked.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:26):
I got punished.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Right.
I love the grocery store.
It's like this little microcosmof human life.
And I'll never forget thisevent.
It's where I kind of learnedthat anger is a learned
response.
It requires some heavy-dutyinterpretation.
It requires some advancedthinking.
I was walking down the aisle,and this ahead of me was a
(27:48):
mother and a daughter.
And the daughter pickedsomething up off the shelf and
put it in the cart, in manyrespects, just trying to mimic
her mother and be a good person.
And her mother got angry andsaid, no, and picked the thing
up and put it back on the shelf.
And then the little girl put herhands on her hips, she stomped
her foot, and she said, You putthat back in the cart right now
(28:11):
to her mother.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
And that was amazing.
SPEAKER_04 (28:16):
I thought that was amazing, right?
She was probably gonna learn thehard way, but she was learning
how to use anger to get what shewants.
SPEAKER_02 (28:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (28:30):
Anyway, that was a that was a neat moment for me to
witness that and laugh aboutthat and examine that.
So what does anger mean?
The emotion of anger means I'mbeing treated unfairly.
This is unfair.
Fair is very important tohumans.
We don't know what it means,right?
When I used to teach law, it wasmy first question, you know, to
(28:50):
my students was always, whatshould law be?
And always the first thing theysay is fair.
And then we would spend an hourtrying to figure out what fair
meant.
Well, what does it mean to befair?
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I think everybody has their own interpretation of
fairness.
I'm not even sure you can evenanswer it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:08):
Well, what we found after usually half an hour to an
hour was there were certainelements to it that we all
agreed on.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:16):
And then the hard part was how do you make things
fair?
What are the conditions of fair?
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Hope for a good judge.
SPEAKER_04 (29:26):
Well, and you know, that's when we realized we all
had different views on what fairmeant.
SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:32):
But we were very committed to it.
Human beings are very committedto fair.
Now, I don't know if that's ourupbringing or if there's
something inherent in humanbeings, but fair is an important
concept for human beings as weknow them today.
But anger means I'm beingtreated unfairly.
And sometimes that's true, andsometimes it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Yeah.
But my brain is worrying.
SPEAKER_04 (29:54):
Yeah, but if if in that moment, instead of saying,
I am angry and everything.
Everything I do at this point isjustified.
You can say, Oh, there is anger.
What's unfair here?
And grab that moment.
What's unfair here?
Am I really being treatedunfairly?
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
Do we ask ourselves, you know, what is this hitting
inside me?
Like what am I, what's my corebelief that's being triggered
here?
SPEAKER_04 (30:21):
There you go.
That's it exactly.
Because a core belief is ahabitual thought, isn't it?
So it's something I've picked upover time with thinking and
interpreting things the same wayover and over and over and over.
And so it becomes a click were.
I get the feeling of anger andthen I react.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (30:40):
Rather than, okay, there's anger here.
Am I being treated unfairly?
How?
Now think of the change in howyou respond, right?
It can be as simple as we'retalking and then I interrupt
you.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (30:54):
And that makes you angry.
As a death.
It's unfair, isn't it?
I mean, it's you know, it's notnice to do that.
It's it comes from a lot ofdifferent reasons unique to the
person who did the interrupting.
But nonetheless, you know, it'sit feels disrespectful, it feels
dismissive, it feels a lot ofthings.
(31:15):
This is unfair.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Feels like I don't matter.
SPEAKER_04 (31:17):
There you go.
It feels a lot of things, but isit?
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (31:23):
What has oh, well, it's disrespectful.
I I agree completely here on asort of general human basis.
But the point is, is that when Ican pause, you interrupt me, and
I pause and I say, Well, is thisis this unfair?
Well, it's yeah, it's nothelpful.
And is it unfair?
Well, it's coming from their ownhabit.
They get really excited abouttheir thoughts and they just
sort of talk over things becausetheir thoughts just come out,
(31:45):
and they're not really doing itagainst me, right?
They're just doing it becausethat's what they do.
It's not unique to me.
They interrupt lots of people,right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:53):
So it's not about me, it's about them, right?
It's about the way they talk.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah, right.
But why can't they be like me?
SPEAKER_04 (32:01):
Well, I'm going out around.
What comes is now I've grabbedthat moment, yeah.
Right?
I've grabbed that moment, and Imight come to the conclusion
that you're interrupting me isunfair.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
But what I don't have to do is run off and go,
you rotten person, you arealways interrupting me.
You are bad.
I can't take this crap anymore.
Don't want anything to do withyou.
Go away forever, right?
SPEAKER_04 (32:26):
It can be as simple as, well, they're interrupting
me, and that's not fair becauseI'm paying attention to the
meaning of the emotion.
I want the situation to becomefair.
That's how I resolve theemotion.
This is not about me.
So although I feel like it'sunfair, I can grab my reaction
and say, wait a second, Ihaven't finished.
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:49):
And now the anger is really useful, right?
Because it leads to making fairthe circumstance you're in.
That's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:58):
The emotion is a message.
So wait a second, right?
But how I choose to respond tothe emotion is probably a habit
I developed as a child.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
It's interesting how we started off with painful
patterns and then we got toanger.
And I'm like looking at the linkhere.
And I suppose the link is theidea that we jump to quickly,
whether it's anger or sadness orwhatever, guilt, shame, all
those stuck emotions.
And when we when weautomatically jump to those
(33:32):
without giving conscious, let'ssay, thought about them, we can
find ourselves in painful,patterns, painful situations.
SPEAKER_04 (33:40):
We are constantly reacting to the conditions of
our life based in the habitsthat we established as children
that became beliefs aboutourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:54):
And that allowed us then to get in the habit of
interpreting a whole world ofsituations the same way.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:04):
And it becomes so why do people stay in bad
marriages?
Because somehow in their mind,they've gotten into the habit of
thinking that this is normal.
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:17):
This is the way it works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
And I like before we turned on the the audio today, I
was saying to Les, like, I am II I understand it at an
emotional level.
You know, when I'm working witha client, for some reason I
understand, as we do, I suppose,we understand other people's
circumstances easier than ourown.
But like why people don't movefrom an unhealthy circumstance
(34:43):
to a healthier circumstance,let's say physic physical abuse
or something.
And I was trying to think, well,like it is it linked to safety?
Like they feel safe in thatsituation.
It's uncomfortable, but they'resafe.
And Les said, well, you know,think about it for yourself.
If you were suddenly, if me,Hillary, was suddenly plunked
(35:05):
into a physically abusivesituation, would you would you
stay?
I think that's what he said.
Yeah.
And I said, Well, no.
And he said, Well, why wouldn'tyou stay?
And I said, because I don'tdeserve that.
And I think that is the the themagic.
And I said, and you and youpointed your finger, like, yup,
you got it.
SPEAKER_04 (35:26):
I said, boom, boom, boom, you found it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:29):
I think when we look at people who, from an outside
perspective, find themselvesengaging the same bad behaviors
over and over, unhelpfulbehaviors over and over.
It's really easy for us to lookat them and think that they're
being logical.
And that's why we challengethem.
Well, that's not logical.
There's no logic involved here.
(35:50):
This is a well-establishedhabitual interpretation of a
circumstance with an emotionthat never got processed.
And so it's paralyzing.
The emotion never got satisfied.
The emotion never got resolved.
And it's such an establishedpattern that it happens
automatically, like tying yourshoes, right?
So these are not people beingdeliberate or conscious.
(36:13):
These are people who areresponding in a very, very
well-established, habitualsubconscious way.
And if you if you examine, Ithink this is where it's helpful
to hypnotists and therapists andstuff, when they're looking at a
circumstance and say, I don'tknow why my client just keeps
doing this, right?
Ask yourself, why wouldn't I betrapped in that kind of pattern?
(36:38):
And now you know what to workon.
It's not about getting thatperson to change the
relationship or stand up forthemselves, or it's not about
getting them to behavedifferently.
SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (36:50):
It's about helping them to interpret life
differently, more truthfully,more honestly, more helpfully,
and say, I don't deserve this.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:01):
Whereas growing up as a child, every time you got
in trouble, every time mom anddad got angry at you, they spent
a lot of time explaining to youwhy you deserved the spanking,
why you deserved to go to yourroom, why you deserve to be
punished.
That programming sticks.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It makes me think about likewhat I heard as a kid, like go
to your room until I'm ready tolet you out.
And it's it's terrible becauseit it it actually influences my
life now, those words, right?
Like I I feel like I don'tdeserve to even talk after
(37:45):
something bad happens, right?
Until the other person gives mesome sort of cue that uh says
like it's okay to talk.
SPEAKER_04 (37:55):
These are just well established mental thought
patterns, including emotions andinterpretations that get so well
ingrained that they happenautomatically or seemingly
automatically.
And generally speaking, asbeings focused on survival,
(38:15):
right?
You don't have time to say, ohlook, it's a lion, isn't he
cute?
Oh, wait, I think he's comingafter me.
Oh, geez, he's got teeth.
Oh, do you think I should run?
I should probably run.
Oops, too late.
Right?
It's it's that flight hashistorically worked out well.
(38:37):
So we all just keep running, weall keep hiding.
Yeah, we all keep thinking, uh,there's nothing better.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah, because we haven't seen what's better, or
what like, or you know, it isn'tlogical.
SPEAKER_04 (38:47):
And there's lots of science that prove that people
don't make choices based inlogic.
But if you pause every time youcan and consider whether or not
your interpretation of the eventis accurate, and then use your
knowledge of what emotions mean.
And the most powerful one formost people is learning that
(39:08):
anger means I'm being treatedunfairly.
I do not need to put on an angryface, I do not need to get
violent, I do not need to standup for myself, I simply need to
make it fair, right?
And the other person's behavioris all about them.
Yeah, it means nothing about me,it is their well-established
(39:31):
habit to act that way.
Yeah, and so okay, that's theirproblem.
I can't fix them.
No, but in this moment, I canfeel better because I understand
my emotion and I'm gonna actdirectly to that emotion in an
attempt to make things better.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:49):
Every emotion is a message.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Yeah.
I find it interesting just togive you sort of a an example of
that.
Think of like a think of anesting doll.
Sounds weird, but like a nestingdoll that's the emotional uprise
inside of you.
And when we're working withclients, at least I could say
this for myself, I'm sure it'sthe same for you.
(40:13):
It's like we're we're unpackingthat nesting doll, right?
And so the outer emotion, theouter doll we release, we put it
out there, we let it go, weunderstand it.
And then there's another oneinside, right?
And sometimes, which happens alot, is and emotions are are
(40:33):
sneaky.
It's almost like they have theirown consciousness.
It'll go from like our chest orour heart to our shoulder,
right?
It'll, it'll zip up there.
That's where I feel it now.
Okay, so let's unpack that andthat and that.
And when it gets this to to thesmallest nesting doll, we sort
of pluck it out.
And I say, you know, what is themessage from that?
(40:56):
And hands down, it's always anice message.
You don't deserve that.
You, you know, you're a goodperson.
You can do that, you can dothis, you can, you can be who
you want to be, all kinds ofmessages.
But it's it's always like 99% ofthe time a nice message.
But we we don't see the messageuntil we can part away the the
(41:19):
feeling, right?
That that big feeling that comesalong with that clouds the
message, clouded by our habits.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (41:28):
Nice.
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah.
So I guess that's it for today.
It is that time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:35):
Comments out there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:36):
No comments.
Uh any questions?
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
That's a comment.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
That's a comment.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us.
Enjoy the conversation.
Thank you.
Uh, for anyone who's still withus, we hold these podcasts
usually except for yesterday,because I was a little under the
weather, but we try to hold themMonday to Friday, 7 15 in the
morning, Eastern Standard Time.
(42:00):
And yeah, you're welcome to joinus and just sit back and sip
your coffee or tea and listen inand ask any questions if you
wish.
SPEAKER_04 (42:08):
And if there's a better time of day for some
people to say, geez, I would Iwould love to do that, but
that's not a convenient time forme.
Well, please reach out and letus know.
Let us know if there's a bettertime.
I'm not sure I'm gonna stay uptill two in the morning, but the
one the but the truth is is thatyou know, we could be doing
these things in the afternoons,and we could be doing these
things in the evenings.
(42:29):
But there's if there's a bettertime to join in, we're we can be
flexible.
SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
Yeah, we've thought about doing like a morning one
and then an afternoon one, andsort of switching it up, right?
So it's not maybe 7-8, 7-15 a.m.
every single day, but it, youknow, maybe three days of the
week and two other days are inthe afternoon or evening.
SPEAKER_04 (42:50):
Anyway, we'd love to hear from you all.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So have a good day, and we'llsee you later.
We are on the line.
SPEAKER_04 (00:14):
Sun is rising.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
It's a little cloudy here, but yeah, the sun is
starting to peek through.
SPEAKER_04 (00:19):
We've had some days of sun and it makes me happy.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (00:24):
Just feel dry.
unknown (00:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Can everyone hear us okay?
Just send that sending that outinto the chat.
Yep, they can hear us.
It's sunny there too.
SPEAKER_04 (00:37):
We've already started talking, so we can ask
up now.
SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
Yeah, let's roll back.
SPEAKER_04 (00:43):
Heather has an idea for topic and she's just gung
home.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
I'm yeah, yeah, that's the word, I guess.
I thought about why do we repeatpainful patterns?
SPEAKER_04 (00:56):
Yeah, we do that, don't we?
I think to me, it's one of myfavorite ways that people come
to hypnosis is at some point oranother, they uh they say, Why
did I do that?
Why did I say that?
Why do I keep doing that?
Why do I keep saying that?
And they they reach a pointwhere their their conscious
mind, their deliberate self,says, Stop it.
(01:20):
And their unconscious self,their subconscious self, says,
Yeah, we're doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Yep, exactly.
And then we wonder like, why,why, why, why do I keep doing
this?
We go to therapy, we go tohypnosis, we we discover the
program.
SPEAKER_04 (01:35):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing, you know.
Learning psychologists talkabout conditioning and you know
the click were.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
The what?
SPEAKER_04 (01:45):
Click were.
You press a button and thingshappen.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Oh, like a word?
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (01:50):
Yeah, click whir.
And it's like the behavior getsclicked and it happens, right?
And they they talk about youknow, the shaping when we when
we engage and when we learn,that's those really well, that
that's when it becomessubconscious.
I'm getting ahead of myself.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
You're doing a Hillary thing.
SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Yeah, getting ahead of myself.
But yeah, that we have so manysituations in life that we
respond to without thinking,right?
SPEAKER_01 (02:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:22):
You know, I love uh my buddy Brian's he, I'm sure
it's an old definition, and I'veheard it other places, but he
always reminds me of it.
It's you know, habit is actionwithout thought.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, like where did that bag of chips go?
I just put it in my hands.
SPEAKER_04 (02:38):
Yeah.
And it's so important to realizethat, you know, that I think
it's amazing we have this depthof mind, right?
I don't know that we would beeven functional beings, let
alone the kinds of successfulbeings that humans are in terms
of building cities and complexmachines and computers and
(03:02):
having a life that is lived on adifferent level because we have
this really deep mind whereparts of it, the deepest parts
of it, are running your bodywithout any effort on your part,
right?
The deepest parts of your mind,that unconscious part of your
mind, is just taking care of allthe stuff that you need to do to
(03:23):
be able to do anything, likebreathing and heart beating, you
know, digestion and metabolism,you know, this this machine that
we're inside, part of our mindis just keeping it running.
Right?
We know from all kinds ofmedical science that you
disconnect the mind from thebody and the body stops, right?
(03:45):
So there's a there's a mind thatruns the body.
But the most amazing part of themind is the part of the mind
that really controls ourbehavior without us having to
try.
And I think the word habit justdoesn't do justice to the whole
idea of the program thathappened.
(04:05):
You know, I I uh I've cookedenough meals for people in my
life that for me, cooking isopening the fridge door,
figuring out what's there, andthen going for it.
And recipes, though I find themfun sometimes and interesting to
try new things, and they theyteach me a lot about the
possibilities.
(04:25):
I tend to just cook out ofhabit.
I tend to just know whensomething's done.
I tend to just know whensomething, you know, could use
this particular spice or thatparticular spice.
It's just that I've cookedthousands of meals for myself
and others.
But to be even more simple, youknow, we all know how to tie our
(04:48):
shoes, but not really.
Because if I asked you to thinkabout it and describe it and
teach it to somebody else, ittakes a little bit of effort.
You know, I I think of, youknow, I saw it so many times in
my years of commuting intoToronto, you know, the person
who is in their car driving towork, sipping a coffee, doing
(05:11):
their makeup, and talking on thephone all at the same time.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:21):
Every one of those behaviors was so well practiced
that it was being done withoutthinking.
It was being done automatically,it was being done as habit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
The conscious mind was not involved.
As soon as we get the consciousmind involved, we get really
messed up sometimes.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Well, I think about it like driving standard.
If I even thought about how todraw uh drive a standard, I
would mess it up.
Right?
I'd be in the I'd be in the carsuddenly going, Oh, what what do
I do?
You know, I would sort of testmyself, I guess, uh, airquains,
but I would totally forget to doit.
SPEAKER_04 (06:01):
Shifting gears becomes as natural as using the
turn signal, what I'm thinking.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (06:06):
So the process is really simple.
It's one of practice.
The conscious mind is engagedthe first few times, being very
deliberate.
Yeah, right.
You're being very focused.
Attention is a really cool thingbecause attention is like
shining a light on something,paying attention to what you're
(06:27):
doing, right?
When we're doing new things,doing things that we haven't
done before, haven't done enoughthat we have confidence in them,
right?
Those things require ourconscious mind's engagement.
SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Yeah.
In the chat, it's a musclememory.
SPEAKER_04 (06:43):
Well, that's what we reduce it to.
SPEAKER_00 (06:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (06:45):
Because the first time we do it, our conscious
mind's involved, and we fumbleand we make mistakes and we
practice and we do it again andwe do it again and again and
again.
And then at some point, and youknow, people talk about the
magic 10,000 reps, but the pointis at some point you got it.
And not only have you got it, ithas now become a behavior
(07:09):
sufficiently programmed in thesubconscious mind that it can
take place without intention.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
And I don't even think you recognize it when you
get it.
SPEAKER_04 (07:19):
No, because you're so focused on getting there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah.
And then when you think back onwhen did I actually learn this,
you can't even lock on to that.
SPEAKER_04 (07:29):
And it it applies to everything.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (07:32):
Everything.
You know, driving is such anautomatic thing for most people.
Now, I'll use an example thatI've observed over my lifetime.
When women get a new hairdo,they spend a lot of time in the
morning getting it back to theway they want it.
And after a couple of weeks ofputting that effort in every
(07:55):
day, they start to get reallyfast.
They get to the point where theycan do it quickly and do
something else at the same time.
Just when we do something new,it requires focus.
Once we get it down to a habit,then we just do it
automatically.
And we get really comfortablewith that because things go
quickly then.
(08:16):
Things generally go well then.
Generally, we're happy thatwe've got it down.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:24):
And so we're naturally resistant to change.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Yeah.
I thought you were gonna saythat the woman's hairdo goes
back to the way it was before.
SPEAKER_04 (08:33):
Sometimes it does because that's the habit.
That's fast.
We've got that.
I know how to do that.
I can't seem to do this otherthing, so let's just move on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that with cooking.
Tend to cook the same thingsover and over and over.
SPEAKER_00 (08:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
I love talking about it when you go shopping.
It's amazing how we all walkthrough the store in the same
pattern, in almost the samefootsteps as we did last time.
Right?
It's the weekly shopping, and Igo through the store aisle by
aisle, the way I always have.
There's so many things we do.
We drive to the store on thesame roads.
(09:09):
There's lots of roads that'llget you there, but we drive to
the store in the same way everytime.
We buy the same things.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:16):
Right?
You don't go to the store everytime and say, okay, what is the
best butter for me to buy?
The cheapest butter.
Well, that becomes the habit.
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:28):
Check the prices.
But it might be that's my brand.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (09:32):
Right?
Everything gets reduced to ahabit.
Anything that we do over andover and over is reduced to a
habit.
And it's a beautiful thingbecause otherwise we couldn't
accomplish anything.
I mean, if we got up in themorning and had to figure out
how to get dressed every day, wehad to figure out how to get
groomed every day.
We had to figure out, you know,while we were trying to do that,
(09:56):
we had to figure out how to keepour body alive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
That's where I wear my pajamas every day all day.
SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
It becomes it becomes habit.
And habits, a lot of habits, arereally helpful.
But we're really good atcreating habits, and thoughts
are habits.
And that's that study.
That study that they've done awhole bunch of times, how the
average human being has between60 and 120,000 thoughts in a
(10:25):
day, however you define thought.
And 80% of them were thethoughts he had yesterday, and
90% of those are negative.
It's just a habit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:35):
Thoughts are habits.
The lack of thought becomes ahabit.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
The lack of thought.
Oh, when it goes into theunconscious almost like it's
unconscious.
SPEAKER_04 (10:44):
Into the subconscious.
SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (10:45):
We're we're slightly aware, but we don't have to be
focused on it.
We don't have to turn ourattention to it.
And while we're doing all thesesubconscious things, that gives
us the ability to focus ourconscious mind and learn new
things.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
It's an amazing machine, this human thing and
the mind that goes with it.
But thoughts are habits.
And thoughts come in all kindsof forms.
I use the word thought toinclude everything from emotions
to interpretations.
These are the big actions of themind, I think, interpreting,
right?
And then triggering an emotion.
(11:20):
And emotions always seek to beresolved.
Emotions are always asking forsomething.
They're asking you to respond.
And that response is neverpushing down.
The response your emotion wantsis never to be ignored.
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yeah.
So why do we ignore them sowell?
I mean, some we don't ignore,but you know, let's yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (11:50):
Some get right in our face.
They become feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
So, in terms of the painful patterns idea, you know,
there's painful environmentsthat we put ourselves in,
painful relationships, painfulthought patterns.
No, I mean all kinds, I guess.
I guess it can be anything.
And painful is subjective, Iguess, right?
It's different for everybody.
But when we go back tochildhood, I think that's where
(12:19):
those patterns get sort ofinstilled in us, and how we play
them out now is based on whathappened to us as a child, what
kind of environment we were in,what kind of relationship did we
have with our parents or familyor friends, you know?
SPEAKER_04 (12:37):
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's it is thatsimple.
Responding to it is hard.
When things are repeated,consider that practice, consider
that rehearsal.
When things happen often, youautomatically learn how to cope,
how to respond, how to avoid.
Most of the time it's avoiding,right?
(12:58):
Seldom is it engaging.
Any kind of negative emotion isquickly, you know, flight.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:08):
Any kind of negative emotion kicking in the
sympathetic nervous system, thatfight or flight or freeze kind
of mode, most of the time,flight is just a really great
idea.
I mean, look around you.
That's the way nature tends towork.
It is drawn towards good thingsand it runs away from bad
things.
SPEAKER_02 (13:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:29):
We are part of nature.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (13:32):
And it is natural for us to avoid that which is
uncomfortable, unpleasant,painful, hurtful.
And seldom do we actually go tofight mode.
And that's why it works so wellfor those who go to fight mode.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
It works well?
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
Yes, it works well.
This is the automatic responsewith anger.
All you got to do is look at alittle kid with anger and they
go running, right?
Doesn't matter who the littlekid is.
You look at a kid and you givethem that angry face and they're
gone.
You automatically kick in theirflight mode.
When people learn that when Iturn on my fight mode, other
(14:08):
people turn on their flightmode.
And I get what I want.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (14:12):
And so that becomes a habit.
That's why people who get angryall the time, it's just their,
it's just their habit.
In fact, some people to thepoint they come in and they see
me and they say, I want to stopgetting angry all the time.
They see it as a habit, and itis so well honed and so
programmed deeply that theybasically hurt their life with
(14:33):
it.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
It's such a balance, you know, like the idea of
anger.
I think it's so important tohave anger and to release anger
in healthy ways.
But I also see the other end ofthe spectrum in my practice
where people are so scared of beshowing anger that they just let
people walk all over them or orthey're they're controlled in
(14:55):
relationships or same thingthough.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:59):
It's a habit.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:00):
It's a habit.
Flight tends to work.
SPEAKER_00 (15:02):
Yeah.
And that's comfortable, Isuppose.
So the ain't the person that isangry and gets away with it, or
get you know what I mean, likegets away with it, it it issues
a feeling of feeling comfortablebecause they get what they want.
SPEAKER_04 (15:16):
But also I wouldn't use the word comfort.
I don't mean to contradict, butI wouldn't use the word comfort.
I would use the word safe.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
So safe.
Yeah.
And so that then that safetyword can be applied to the
person who shies away from angerbecause they would get in
trouble.
And so now they're feeling safe.
So everybody's feeling safe, butnot for good reason.
SPEAKER_04 (15:40):
So when two people are angry with each other, both
of them are showing anger.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
Right.
You know, we call that boxing.
When two people are both inanger mode, they have a fight.
Some people learn to avoidfights, right?
Some people have learned toenjoy fights.
Some people believe if I don'tfight, I'm not being myself.
But of course they are.
They can be anything they want,but it's a habit.
(16:09):
It's a well-honed program.
Two people get angry, usuallythe smaller one walks away.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:20):
Right?
Yeah.
So to step back from all ofthat, right?
To break the habit is to changethe interpretation of what's
going on.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
But you have to do it so often that it becomes the
new habit.
The new habit.
SPEAKER_04 (16:34):
Or you can go to hypnosis and see how it's a
habit and see how there's amoment there when you make that
choice.
It's become so practiced thatthat moment isn't even
measurable.
It's that fast.
It just seems to happen.
But there is, before it happens,there is a tiny, tiny, tiny
(16:57):
moment where you can see thechoice, right?
So I'm driving down the street,I got my kids in the car, and
some guy, quite literally, makesa really dangerous left-hand
turn in front of me, and I hitthe horn.
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Canadian anger.
SPEAKER_04 (17:11):
Yeah.
Canadian anger.
And I hit the horn.
Now, there's a lot of conditionsgoing on, like I'm driving a
minivan, right?
But I hit the horn and I didn'tjust hit the horn.
I held the horn, probably for agood count of two.
Right.
And then he slams on the brakesand jumps out of his car.
(17:32):
Stands on his brakes.
He stops right in front of me.
It's all I can do to stop ontime.
And he's getting out of his carand he is so angry, right?
And so I jumped out of my car.
SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
Oh my God.
SPEAKER_04 (17:43):
Right?
And then he saw me.
I was a foot taller than him.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
You don't mean to laugh.
SPEAKER_04 (17:48):
Well, it's it's just very, very human, right?
Let's not judge anybody.
Yeah.
Right?
Let's just see how humid it is,right?
He was in such a hurry that hehad to cut in front of me
dangerously.
But now he's angry, so he's notin a hurry anymore.
He could park his car rightthere in the middle of the road
and he's got time to get out.
This is not rational behavior.
(18:09):
This is not thought out.
This is habit.
And then he instantly sees meand he freezes.
Like his eyes are bugging outand he's freezes.
And I just, I was angry.
So I just pointed at him and Isaid, Get your ass back in your
car.
And he then swore at me and gotback in his car and drove away.
SPEAKER_00 (18:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:29):
Right.
So there's a moment there.
He his his reaction happened sofast.
He went to anger so fast that hesort of lost himself, lost
control, stopped his car in themiddle of the road, parked it,
and got out.
Think about how automatic it isto be able to put your car and
park.
He he he's able to do that whilehe was this angry.
(18:50):
Yeah.
Stop, park, get out.
Right.
And then in that moment, herealized fight is not the right
alternative here.
Now, I'm not saying I would havehurt him, and I'm not saying
that there was gonna be a fistfight.
I'm just saying that hisinterpretation of the
circumstance changedinstantaneously as soon as he
(19:10):
saw that fight wasn't a goodoption.
And that is the moment.
I tell that story to realizethere's a moment there when we
make the choice.
Oh, choice.
He made a choice, saw it was thewrong choice, and made another.
Right?
There's a moment there where wecan slow down the habit.
SPEAKER_02 (19:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:34):
There's a moment there where we can, if we can
grab that moment and be notprogrammed in that moment, in
that moment, we have theopportunity.
That's the difference between,you know, happiness and tragedy,
that moment.
In that moment, we have aninterpretation of the
(19:54):
circumstance and it causes us toclick in, click work, click in
an emotional response.
Right.
And that's when, when we fall tohabit, we can get ourselves in
trouble.
So I tell that story onlybecause the idea is that he made
a different choice.
He responded in habit and thenevaluated instantaneously the
(20:17):
circumstance and then madeanother choice.
That's what's possible.
That's what's possible for us tostart to stop the automatic
reaction and be more attentive,aware, and deliberate in the
choices that we make.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
What if we have every reason to be angry?
I mean, not going out therebeating people up, but like, you
know, something happens and andwe feel angry and we want to
resolve it, right?
We don't always have to make thechoice to step away from it.
SPEAKER_04 (20:50):
Well, there's there's the other habit, right?
So if our habit is to turn toanger, then anger can escalate
and then more habits kick in.
unknown (21:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:01):
It's just to me important to see them all as
habits.
SPEAKER_02 (21:04):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (21:04):
And habit can be changed.
Habit can be stopped by simplybecoming conscious to your own
choices.
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (21:12):
So this is where I think what happens quickly is an
emotion becomes a feeling,becomes a physical response.
And then they get all pulledtogether, and then they become
an automatic response.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Yeah.
And I think where we get caughtup, uh, there's there's there's
anger that is, let's say,founded in the moment.
And then there's anger, at leastwhat I what I see with my
clients, that there's angerwhere it gets kind of sticky and
where they want to startchanging it is when it becomes
habitual, when it's happeningall the time.
(21:45):
But what stands out is that thatanger, when it's that specific
anger, it's usually tied to acore belief that they have about
themselves that is on that isnot a good core belief.
I had someone in the past, theyhad, yeah, just a really
negative, negative core beliefabout themselves to the point
(22:09):
where they would just look atthemselves and call themselves
bad names and stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (22:13):
Where does that belief come from?
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
That comes from childhood.
SPEAKER_04 (22:16):
Well, that's when it took place.
SPEAKER_00 (22:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:18):
But where does it come from?
SPEAKER_00 (22:19):
The subconscious.
Is that what you mean?
SPEAKER_04 (22:21):
Yeah, that's what I'm driving at.
I'm driving at the idea that abelief is just a well-practiced
interpretation.
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (22:28):
Your beliefs come from repeated experiences.
Experiences are made up of threethings: an event, an
interpretation, and an emotion.
So things happen and weinterpret them.
We can't, we might interpretthem incorrectly, we might
interpret them correctly, wemight interpret them both,
partially correctly, partiallyincorrectly.
(22:49):
But then it triggers an emotion.
And that emotion is meant to bea message.
It's not meant to be a state ofbeing.
When we don't hear the messageof the emotion and we cling to
the emotion, get trapped in theemotion, maybe, it becomes a
feeling.
We start to experience in ourbody.
You know, they say emotions, youknow, feelings are where
(23:11):
emotions meet the body.
And people are different.
You know, some people feel angerin their chest, some feel anger
in their forehead, some feelanger in their throat.
We feel it in different parts ofour body depending on who we are
and what the situation is.
So it's important to see howfeelings can change, but the
emotion is still there.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:30):
And then the magic is interpreting the emotion
before you act on it.
That's that moment, that momentyou can grab.
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:38):
Right?
That's that old Buddhisttechnique that you know the
monks practiced all the time.
Instead of saying, I am angry.
And claiming it, they would say,There is anger.
SPEAKER_00 (23:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:49):
Instead of saying, I am sad.
SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
And claiming it.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_04 (23:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:54):
Yeah.
That locks it in, right?
SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (23:57):
That that claims it.
That's saying that's mine.
That's me right now.
SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (24:01):
They say, well, there's sadness.
I it's this is what I'm workingon right now for the next few
reframes on the school isunderstanding that emotions have
meaning.
And the response to thoseemotions can change from time to
time.
SPEAKER_02 (24:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (24:15):
Unfortunately, they tend to become habits.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
And I think it's important no matter what, no
matter what kind of visual ormetaphor or thought helps you do
this, to separate out the thefeeling and emotion.
Because, you know, the monksmight say, there is.
And I suppose when I think aboutit, when I have clients
(24:40):
literally pull, I swear to God,it's actually happening.
Like they're moving energy.
We're so magical, right?
They're pulling this energy outof their chest, out of their
head, out of their heart, out oftheir arm, whatever, whatever.
And they're placing it in frontof them.
There it is out there, right?
There's they're separating itfrom the body.
They're not they're not claimingit anymore.
(25:01):
And then on top of that, whatdoes that look like out there?
Right.
So now it's totally different.
It's not me.
It's not, it looks like chains,it looks like bricks, it looks
like a wall, it looks like ablob, you know, muck.
SPEAKER_04 (25:14):
A black spiky rock.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:16):
Yeah.
I've heard all those kinds ofdescriptions.
And the ones who have a hardtime pulling them, pulling it
out of themselves.
SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Imagine a child pulling it backwards into the
body.
SPEAKER_04 (25:26):
Well, that's it's a part.
So let's say that the naturalthing is that there is anger.
Then when you say, I am angry,that's when you're actually
taking it from outside andputting it in.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
Yeah, really.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're claiming it.
Was it always outside of it?
SPEAKER_04 (25:46):
Well, it was it was an outside event.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (25:49):
This is an event, and I'm interpreting it a
certain way.
And then when I interpret itthat way and I attach that
emotion, that emotion nowtriggers those kinds of
interpretations.
Yeah.
Because they're a clump.
They're they're they're threebig pieces in what you call
experience.
And experience is what reallydefines us, it's what turns
things into habits.
(26:10):
Right?
Tying those shoelaces 150 timesuntil you can do it without
looking.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:17):
Until you can do it without thinking.
When you can do it and not evenremember if you did it and have
to check, right?
That's just habit.
That's just repeated, takingsomething that was at first very
conscious and deliberate andmaking it subconscious.
I don't have to put my attentionon that anymore.
And so when you say it happensin childhood, you know, I think
(26:39):
there's two big importantconditions about childhood.
The first one is we're prettyempty.
We're just gaining experiences.
We don't have the bazillions ofexperiences that we have as
adults.
And we're very, very reliant oneveryone around us.
SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
Yeah.
I mean, if if we're not takencare of in the way that we want
to be taken care of, then wefeel like we're gonna expire.
SPEAKER_04 (27:03):
And then a child probably learns flight.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:07):
To withdraw, to apologize, to I'm sorry, I'm
sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, runto the room and hide.
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:14):
All those things.
Because, you know, first of all,these these adults control my
life, and second of all, they'rea whole lot bigger than me.
And third of all, the last timeI really stood up for myself, I
got spanked.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:26):
I got punished.
SPEAKER_02 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Right.
I love the grocery store.
It's like this little microcosmof human life.
And I'll never forget thisevent.
It's where I kind of learnedthat anger is a learned
response.
It requires some heavy-dutyinterpretation.
It requires some advancedthinking.
I was walking down the aisle,and this ahead of me was a
(27:48):
mother and a daughter.
And the daughter pickedsomething up off the shelf and
put it in the cart, in manyrespects, just trying to mimic
her mother and be a good person.
And her mother got angry andsaid, no, and picked the thing
up and put it back on the shelf.
And then the little girl put herhands on her hips, she stomped
her foot, and she said, You putthat back in the cart right now
(28:11):
to her mother.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
And that was amazing.
SPEAKER_04 (28:16):
I thought that was amazing, right?
She was probably gonna learn thehard way, but she was learning
how to use anger to get what shewants.
SPEAKER_02 (28:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (28:30):
Anyway, that was a that was a neat moment for me to
witness that and laugh aboutthat and examine that.
So what does anger mean?
The emotion of anger means I'mbeing treated unfairly.
This is unfair.
Fair is very important tohumans.
We don't know what it means,right?
When I used to teach law, it wasmy first question, you know, to
(28:50):
my students was always, whatshould law be?
And always the first thing theysay is fair.
And then we would spend an hourtrying to figure out what fair
meant.
Well, what does it mean to befair?
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I think everybody has their own interpretation of
fairness.
I'm not even sure you can evenanswer it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:08):
Well, what we found after usually half an hour to an
hour was there were certainelements to it that we all
agreed on.
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:16):
And then the hard part was how do you make things
fair?
What are the conditions of fair?
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Hope for a good judge.
SPEAKER_04 (29:26):
Well, and you know, that's when we realized we all
had different views on what fairmeant.
SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (29:32):
But we were very committed to it.
Human beings are very committedto fair.
Now, I don't know if that's ourupbringing or if there's
something inherent in humanbeings, but fair is an important
concept for human beings as weknow them today.
But anger means I'm beingtreated unfairly.
And sometimes that's true, andsometimes it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:52):
Yeah.
But my brain is worrying.
SPEAKER_04 (29:54):
Yeah, but if if in that moment, instead of saying,
I am angry and everything.
Everything I do at this point isjustified.
You can say, Oh, there is anger.
What's unfair here?
And grab that moment.
What's unfair here?
Am I really being treatedunfairly?
SPEAKER_00 (30:12):
Do we ask ourselves, you know, what is this hitting
inside me?
Like what am I, what's my corebelief that's being triggered
here?
SPEAKER_04 (30:21):
There you go.
That's it exactly.
Because a core belief is ahabitual thought, isn't it?
So it's something I've picked upover time with thinking and
interpreting things the same wayover and over and over and over.
And so it becomes a click were.
I get the feeling of anger andthen I react.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (30:40):
Rather than, okay, there's anger here.
Am I being treated unfairly?
How?
Now think of the change in howyou respond, right?
It can be as simple as we'retalking and then I interrupt
you.
SPEAKER_03 (30:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (30:54):
And that makes you angry.
As a death.
It's unfair, isn't it?
I mean, it's you know, it's notnice to do that.
It's it comes from a lot ofdifferent reasons unique to the
person who did the interrupting.
But nonetheless, you know, it'sit feels disrespectful, it feels
dismissive, it feels a lot ofthings.
(31:15):
This is unfair.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Feels like I don't matter.
SPEAKER_04 (31:17):
There you go.
It feels a lot of things, but isit?
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (31:23):
What has oh, well, it's disrespectful.
I I agree completely here on asort of general human basis.
But the point is, is that when Ican pause, you interrupt me, and
I pause and I say, Well, is thisis this unfair?
Well, it's yeah, it's nothelpful.
And is it unfair?
Well, it's coming from their ownhabit.
They get really excited abouttheir thoughts and they just
sort of talk over things becausetheir thoughts just come out,
(31:45):
and they're not really doing itagainst me, right?
They're just doing it becausethat's what they do.
It's not unique to me.
They interrupt lots of people,right?
SPEAKER_03 (31:53):
So it's not about me, it's about them, right?
It's about the way they talk.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah, right.
But why can't they be like me?
SPEAKER_04 (32:01):
Well, I'm going out around.
What comes is now I've grabbedthat moment, yeah.
Right?
I've grabbed that moment, and Imight come to the conclusion
that you're interrupting me isunfair.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
But what I don't have to do is run off and go,
you rotten person, you arealways interrupting me.
You are bad.
I can't take this crap anymore.
Don't want anything to do withyou.
Go away forever, right?
SPEAKER_04 (32:26):
It can be as simple as, well, they're interrupting
me, and that's not fair becauseI'm paying attention to the
meaning of the emotion.
I want the situation to becomefair.
That's how I resolve theemotion.
This is not about me.
So although I feel like it'sunfair, I can grab my reaction
and say, wait a second, Ihaven't finished.
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:49):
And now the anger is really useful, right?
Because it leads to making fairthe circumstance you're in.
That's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:58):
The emotion is a message.
So wait a second, right?
But how I choose to respond tothe emotion is probably a habit
I developed as a child.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
It's interesting how we started off with painful
patterns and then we got toanger.
And I'm like looking at the linkhere.
And I suppose the link is theidea that we jump to quickly,
whether it's anger or sadness orwhatever, guilt, shame, all
those stuck emotions.
And when we when weautomatically jump to those
(33:32):
without giving conscious, let'ssay, thought about them, we can
find ourselves in painful,patterns, painful situations.
SPEAKER_04 (33:40):
We are constantly reacting to the conditions of
our life based in the habitsthat we established as children
that became beliefs aboutourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (33:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (33:54):
And that allowed us then to get in the habit of
interpreting a whole world ofsituations the same way.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:04):
And it becomes so why do people stay in bad
marriages?
Because somehow in their mind,they've gotten into the habit of
thinking that this is normal.
SPEAKER_00 (34:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (34:17):
This is the way it works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (34:20):
And I like before we turned on the the audio today, I
was saying to Les, like, I am II I understand it at an
emotional level.
You know, when I'm working witha client, for some reason I
understand, as we do, I suppose,we understand other people's
circumstances easier than ourown.
But like why people don't movefrom an unhealthy circumstance
(34:43):
to a healthier circumstance,let's say physic physical abuse
or something.
And I was trying to think, well,like it is it linked to safety?
Like they feel safe in thatsituation.
It's uncomfortable, but they'resafe.
And Les said, well, you know,think about it for yourself.
If you were suddenly, if me,Hillary, was suddenly plunked
(35:05):
into a physically abusivesituation, would you would you
stay?
I think that's what he said.
Yeah.
And I said, Well, no.
And he said, Well, why wouldn'tyou stay?
And I said, because I don'tdeserve that.
And I think that is the the themagic.
And I said, and you and youpointed your finger, like, yup,
you got it.
SPEAKER_04 (35:26):
I said, boom, boom, boom, you found it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (35:29):
I think when we look at people who, from an outside
perspective, find themselvesengaging the same bad behaviors
over and over, unhelpfulbehaviors over and over.
It's really easy for us to lookat them and think that they're
being logical.
And that's why we challengethem.
Well, that's not logical.
There's no logic involved here.
(35:50):
This is a well-establishedhabitual interpretation of a
circumstance with an emotionthat never got processed.
And so it's paralyzing.
The emotion never got satisfied.
The emotion never got resolved.
And it's such an establishedpattern that it happens
automatically, like tying yourshoes, right?
So these are not people beingdeliberate or conscious.
(36:13):
These are people who areresponding in a very, very
well-established, habitualsubconscious way.
And if you if you examine, Ithink this is where it's helpful
to hypnotists and therapists andstuff, when they're looking at a
circumstance and say, I don'tknow why my client just keeps
doing this, right?
Ask yourself, why wouldn't I betrapped in that kind of pattern?
(36:38):
And now you know what to workon.
It's not about getting thatperson to change the
relationship or stand up forthemselves, or it's not about
getting them to behavedifferently.
SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (36:50):
It's about helping them to interpret life
differently, more truthfully,more honestly, more helpfully,
and say, I don't deserve this.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (37:01):
Whereas growing up as a child, every time you got
in trouble, every time mom anddad got angry at you, they spent
a lot of time explaining to youwhy you deserved the spanking,
why you deserved to go to yourroom, why you deserve to be
punished.
That programming sticks.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It makes me think about likewhat I heard as a kid, like go
to your room until I'm ready tolet you out.
And it's it's terrible becauseit it it actually influences my
life now, those words, right?
Like I I feel like I don'tdeserve to even talk after
(37:45):
something bad happens, right?
Until the other person gives mesome sort of cue that uh says
like it's okay to talk.
SPEAKER_04 (37:55):
These are just well established mental thought
patterns, including emotions andinterpretations that get so well
ingrained that they happenautomatically or seemingly
automatically.
And generally speaking, asbeings focused on survival,
(38:15):
right?
You don't have time to say, ohlook, it's a lion, isn't he
cute?
Oh, wait, I think he's comingafter me.
Oh, geez, he's got teeth.
Oh, do you think I should run?
I should probably run.
Oops, too late.
Right?
It's it's that flight hashistorically worked out well.
(38:37):
So we all just keep running, weall keep hiding.
Yeah, we all keep thinking, uh,there's nothing better.
SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
Yeah, because we haven't seen what's better, or
what like, or you know, it isn'tlogical.
SPEAKER_04 (38:47):
And there's lots of science that prove that people
don't make choices based inlogic.
But if you pause every time youcan and consider whether or not
your interpretation of the eventis accurate, and then use your
knowledge of what emotions mean.
And the most powerful one formost people is learning that
(39:08):
anger means I'm being treatedunfairly.
I do not need to put on an angryface, I do not need to get
violent, I do not need to standup for myself, I simply need to
make it fair, right?
And the other person's behavioris all about them.
Yeah, it means nothing about me,it is their well-established
(39:31):
habit to act that way.
Yeah, and so okay, that's theirproblem.
I can't fix them.
No, but in this moment, I canfeel better because I understand
my emotion and I'm gonna actdirectly to that emotion in an
attempt to make things better.
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (39:49):
Every emotion is a message.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Yeah.
I find it interesting just togive you sort of a an example of
that.
Think of like a think of anesting doll.
Sounds weird, but like a nestingdoll that's the emotional uprise
inside of you.
And when we're working withclients, at least I could say
this for myself, I'm sure it'sthe same for you.
(40:13):
It's like we're we're unpackingthat nesting doll, right?
And so the outer emotion, theouter doll we release, we put it
out there, we let it go, weunderstand it.
And then there's another oneinside, right?
And sometimes, which happens alot, is and emotions are are
(40:33):
sneaky.
It's almost like they have theirown consciousness.
It'll go from like our chest orour heart to our shoulder,
right?
It'll, it'll zip up there.
That's where I feel it now.
Okay, so let's unpack that andthat and that.
And when it gets this to to thesmallest nesting doll, we sort
of pluck it out.
And I say, you know, what is themessage from that?
(40:56):
And hands down, it's always anice message.
You don't deserve that.
You, you know, you're a goodperson.
You can do that, you can dothis, you can, you can be who
you want to be, all kinds ofmessages.
But it's it's always like 99% ofthe time a nice message.
But we we don't see the messageuntil we can part away the the
(41:19):
feeling, right?
That that big feeling that comesalong with that clouds the
message, clouded by our habits.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_04 (41:28):
Nice.
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Yeah.
So I guess that's it for today.
It is that time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:35):
Comments out there.
SPEAKER_00 (41:36):
No comments.
Uh any questions?
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
That's a comment.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
That's a comment.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us.
Enjoy the conversation.
Thank you.
Uh, for anyone who's still withus, we hold these podcasts
usually except for yesterday,because I was a little under the
weather, but we try to hold themMonday to Friday, 7 15 in the
morning, Eastern Standard Time.
(42:00):
And yeah, you're welcome to joinus and just sit back and sip
your coffee or tea and listen inand ask any questions if you
wish.
SPEAKER_04 (42:08):
And if there's a better time of day for some
people to say, geez, I would Iwould love to do that, but
that's not a convenient time forme.
Well, please reach out and letus know.
Let us know if there's a bettertime.
I'm not sure I'm gonna stay uptill two in the morning, but the
one the but the truth is is thatyou know, we could be doing
these things in the afternoons,and we could be doing these
things in the evenings.
(42:29):
But there's if there's a bettertime to join in, we're we can be
flexible.
SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
Yeah, we've thought about doing like a morning one
and then an afternoon one, andsort of switching it up, right?
So it's not maybe 7-8, 7-15 a.m.
every single day, but it, youknow, maybe three days of the
week and two other days are inthe afternoon or evening.
SPEAKER_04 (42:50):
Anyway, we'd love to hear from you all.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So have a good day, and we'llsee you later.
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