#118 – Impermanence, Mindfulness, and Focusing on the Strengths of First Generation Students - College Parent Central Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.

(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.

Vicki Nelson (00:45):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about anything that has to
do with parenting a collegestudent or someone who's getting
ready to go to college, andsometimes even those students
who have graduated from college.
If you have a child anywhere inthat sequence, we hope we have

(01:06):
some information for you.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam one of the co-hosts of this
podcast.
I am solo today in terms of ahost, but I am not alone.
I am a college professor ofcommunication and, more
importantly I think for thispodcast I am also the parent of

(01:28):
three daughters who have allgone to college and they've come
out the other side.
I've survived, and so have they, so there is hope that you can
do that.
As I said, I am not here today.
I'm very excited.
I have two people here with methat I know you're going to want
to hear from.
We're going to talk today withJohn Martinez and Zachary I

(01:49):
should have asked how topronounce it Desjardins.
Desjardins, yeah, Okay, myFrench, my high school French,
is coming through.
It helped me out.
Oui madame, and John and Zacharyare both academic advisors in
the Advising and AcademicSupport Center at the State

(02:11):
University of New York at Albany, and I first heard them give a
presentation at a NACADA Region1 conference NACADA, one of
those wonderful acronyms that weuse, that's the National
Association of College AcademicAdvisors academic advising and

(02:32):
they did a presentation about anumber of things which they wove
together, and I knew that thethings that they talked about
were things that the parents wholistened to this podcast would
want to hear about.
They are on the front line ofworking with students all the

(02:53):
time and they had a lot to share, so I'm going to start by
asking them to introducethemselves to you and to tell
you a little bit about what theydo.
Zachary, do you want to start?

Zachary DesJardins (03:07):
Yes, hello.
So I want to say, vicki, thankyou so much for actually having
me on.
I'm really excited about thisand I'm really excited to kind
of talk to you, john, about thisamazing topic that we actually
brought up in Nakata, becauseit's something that's very near
and dear to my heart.
But to introduce myself, myname is Zachary Desjardins.
I'm a university academicadvisor.
I'm also a first yearexperience course instructor

(03:28):
where I teach a first gencollege student seminar for
incoming first gen firstsemester students.
I'm also the chair of NACADA'sfirst generation college student
advising community as well.
So if anyone would beinterested, feel free.
I'm sure Vicki will post mycontact information.
I'm more than happy to talkabout that.
We'll get more involved withfirst-gen students, but I

(03:50):
actually work with all differenttypes of students within their
first two years of college.
Actually just found out justnot too long ago, maybe around
two months, that I'm actuallygoing to be piloting the
first-gen academic advisingmodel for around 100 to 115
first semester, first year incollege students, and so I can
talk about that more later on.

(04:11):
But I said, I'm an academicadvisor.
I kind of work through studentsto kind of discuss majors,
minors, class suggestions, youknow, talk about their lives.
You know, I think it's reallyimportant to kind of talk about
what things happen outside theclassroom, impact things while
they're inside the classroom andall that type of stuff.
And, like I said, I love my joband I love working with my
colleagues, like John Martinez,who's going to introduce himself
as well, and it's a great job.

(04:32):
I really love it every singleday.
So thank you for having us on,vicki.

Great Thanks.
Thanks for being here, John.
How about you?

John Martinez (04:58):
My name is John Martinez.
I'm again a university academicadvisor.
I've been in this role for abouteight years now and I work a
lot with staff development andthinking about like how staff
can better enjoy advising, beingmore present in advising, doing
more things on campus, justenjoying their conversations
with students and just gettingmore out of the whole experience
.
Same thing with students.
I just really love the idea ofgetting students to kind of get
more out of that collegeexperience as opposed to feeling

(05:19):
like it's just a degree, it'sjust the paper, it's just the
thing that they're doing.
So this topic is really sort ofthe mind of Zach and I kind of
melding into one, thinking abouthow just sort of the plight of

(05:41):
the first generation collegestudent but also the plight of
sort of the advisingprofessional and sort of what
that looks like and how thatrelationship can benefit from
just sort of just being heretogether more often.
And I'm a mentor for the Region1 NACADA program and I've been
getting a lot more involved inNACADA and I just really love
being in front of people talkingabout a lot of things so it
doesn't matter what.
It is that I talk about it, soI'm happy to be able to talk
about it.

Well, a little bit that I've gotten to know you.
I think the idea of meldingyour two minds together might be
a little bit scary.
I think the idea of meldingyour two minds together might be
a little bit scary.
But that's okay, I'm takingover.
Yeah, I'm holding you, I reallylike John, that you refer to the
advising center as a hub,because I think students often

(06:19):
don't stop to think about that.
In order to advise them, youreally do have to know a lot
about everything all aroundcampus, really do have to know a
lot about everything all aroundcampus, and so if they have
questions, it's the perfectplace to go because it really
does bring everything together.
And we'll see we might talk alittle more about NACADA later,
but I think it's helpful forparents to know that there

(06:40):
actually is a nationalassociation that is just for
advisors.
This is this really is aprofession that makes it a big
difference for students.
So there, you know that thatprofessional development and
sharing stories and sharinginformation is always helpful.
I heard you at Nakata and Iasked you to join me on the

(07:04):
podcast because somehow youmanaged to weave together a
presentation that talked aboutBuddhism and mindfulness and
first generation students, andit all came together and it all
made sense.
I admit that as you started out, I thought, well, this is

(07:26):
interesting, but what does ithave to do with that and what
does that?
And it really came together.
So I thought that might besomething that would be
interesting to parents, and Ithink it might help if we start
by breaking it down a little bit.
And so I don't know, maybe,john, would you get us started
talking a little bit about you.
Your presentation started bytalking about something called

(07:49):
impermanence.
Yeah, what is that and whatdoes it have to do with anything
?

So, impermanence about a year ago I actually
about a year and a half ago Iwas talking to a lot of students
throughout the year and I keptseeing this constant
conversation coming up of like afear of things changing and not
being the same and and they'rethey're desperately trying to
kind of make things stable again.
And so I really just I went onGoogle and I was like what is a

(08:16):
word?
I was trying to figure out whatthe word was for constant
change and the first thing thatcame up was impermanence and I
started to.
I really liked the word.
I like the sound of it, likethe look of it, so I started
looking into it and I started torealize that this word is is
nothing new.
It's a huge, huge part ofBuddhist belief, but even just
like philosophy and Zenphilosophy, of like this idea

(08:37):
that things are always sort ofchanging.
And at Nakata I used this story,uh, about a year ago, I uh, my
wife and I have had a house forsix years now and we've been
together for about 15 years, andwe had this house for six years
and nothing really happened.
We had little run-ins withlittle critters here and there,
as most homeowners do, and so wejust kind of let it go.

(08:59):
And then one day I was walkingaround in our upstairs bathroom
because we just got them doneand I saw this little bug and I
was like I didn't know what thiswas and I was like, oh, that's
weird, but I don't like bugs, soI just kind of got rid of it
and I was like all right, let'sgo figure it out.
Then all of a sudden, like aweek later, I was walking
outside and I'm looking at mysiding and all of a sudden I see
some more of those little and Ikind of kept going with it and
then I walked, I was upstairs intheir bathroom again and all of

(09:26):
a sudden they're on thewindowsill and I was like now
you're in my territory.
I don't like that, we're goingto have to start.
The battle lines are beingdrawn.
And so I started looking themup and then I realized that they
were called springtails, andfor anyone that doesn't know
what a springtail is, it's themost benign bug.
It literally does nothingexcept for, like it likes
moisture and mold and mildew andstuff.

(09:46):
And but the problem is withspringtails is that they have
like one giant fault and it'sthat they essentially breed in
like the bajillions in humidweather, and that last year, if
you remember, it was like allthe time it was like rainy and
wet in the Northeast it was like, oh my God, it was horrible.
And and wet in the northeast itwas like, oh my god, it was
horrible.
And so this was like perfectbreeding ground for springtails.
And what happens is they don'ttypically go to your house

(10:08):
unless they run out of places tolive and then they overpopulate
and then they kind of migrateto whatever's next.
We happen to be next, and sothat was fine, except for one
they're hard to get rid ofbecause they don't really
respond to like certaininsecticides and stuff, and two
they breed like forever and ittakes forever to once you have
them in your house.

Announcer (10:28):
There's already too many of them and you have to
kind of.

it's like months of treatment and months of doing
this.
So what started was exactlythat.
It was like months of a warbetween me and the springtails,
trying to figure out how to keepthem out of the house, because
we went away for a weekend.
We came back and they were onour windows, our windows, they
were on our bed, they were onthe kids' window.
I was freaking out.
I was like, oh my gosh, and soI went to war and I looked up

(10:51):
every.
I'm an expert on springtails.
Right now I can tell you theiranatomy.
I can tell you what they're herefor I can tell you everything
about them.
You've got a sidekick, I'm sogood at it.
So I went through the wholetime.
So now this is like again.
The summer was so hot and humidit was so hard to get rid of
them.
So it was like June, July,August hit, Then finally
September hit, and then finallyI started to see like the work

(11:14):
was paying off and I was like,okay, I think this is good, I
think I'm starting to finallyget there.
And all of a sudden I wastalking to my wife and I was
like you know, I think I did it.
I think I finally like calledthe masses and I was like I
think I finally got to where weare right now we don't have any
springtails and stuff.
And she goes.
You know that's great.
And we had this wholeconversation about how she had
been worried about me because myson was born April 5th and the

(11:58):
springtails sort of hit right atthe end of April and when we
brought him home, it like wasimmediately sidelined by this
thing that I could can'tremember most of it, because I
was so anxious and so worked upthat I was never going to get
rid of this problem.
I was never going to do thisthing, and when we started
talking about this idea ofimpermanence, it really hit me
that, like that is sort of thequintessential example of what

(12:20):
happens in a lot of our liveswhere, like, we end up in places
where we have something thathappened or something that's
currently happening that'soccupying a lot of our mental
energy, and when we don't set itaside to be here right now, we
end up missing a lot of what'shappening in those conversations
.
And impermanence is exactly that.
We tend to think thateverything is stable and then we

(12:41):
have moments of instabilitythat like, oh, I lost my job or
I broke up with, or thishappened or that happened, and
so our goal is to get back tostability.
Impermanence is really the flipside of that.
It's that everything isactually always unstable and we
have little moments of stabilityin between, and that our
unhappiness comes from that.
Wanting everything to be stablewhen it's not, life is

(13:05):
inherently chaotic.
It's inherently change all thetime.
We can't control the thingsthat happen.
More often than not, most ofwhat we control is what we react
to and how we react, and whenwe started talking about
first-gen college students, westarted saying, yeah, I mean,
this is their lives.
This is all our lives.
But imagine now you're comingto college for the first time
and you're doing all thesethings and Zach will talk a bit
about like that first year incollege dilemma.

(13:26):
But it's how do we get to thepresent?
Because without that, we end upmissing a lot of really
important parts of our day andour conversations, and because
we're so worked up about thisthing, it doesn't really matter
that we're missing the importantthings that are happening in
front of us.
And so that was sort of likethe sort of like the beginning

(13:49):
of that idea of like how do weuse that then to talk about how
we can better support first genstudents, all our students,
first gen students as well ashow we as professionals can be
more present, or even, in thiscase, parents, how parents and
I'm a parent to like how can webe more present in our, in our
kids lives by trying to blockout all the other stuff?

and so that's kind of like the idea of of that
impermanence philosophy yeah, Ilove that story because it
really does illustrate, I mean,as you were talking about it and
talking about you know, missingthose first few months.
I mean you didn't, you weren'tphysically absent, but yeah, but
not being present as present asyou would like to, it makes me

(14:27):
think about a lot of the firstyear students not necessarily
just first gen, but first yearstudents that I see who are so
overwhelmed with trying to dealwith everything that they they
aren't in the moment of theschool.
In the moment of the school,yeah.

Announcer (14:44):
Okay.

So we've got that idea of impermanence, and now
let's move a little bit tofirst-generation students, and
these, as we're talking aboutthem and correct me if I'm wrong
are students for whom neitherparent has earned a college
degree.
So that's what we're using as adefinition of first-year

(15:09):
students.
Is that correct?
First-generation students, isthat correct?

Yeah, so when it comes to the definition,
honestly, each institution kindof varies it depending on the
institution itself.
But for me personally, I usewhere neither parent has earned
a four-year college degree.
So if your parents have earnedan associate's degree, you know
you're still taking a first-genstudent.
I need to go about four-yearmodel, which is pretty common
amongst other institutions, but,like I said, it literally
depends on the institution okay.

so that's important is that even if you've
you've got an associate'sdegree, your, your student, is
still dealing with a new kind ofexperience of a first
generation working on that, andI know you've both talked about
working a lot with firstgeneration students and that,
and then you've also talkedabout as an advisor, you're the

(15:57):
hub of information and supportand you're there to help them.
So I'm curious whether thereare, in your experience, do you
have any observations aboutfirst-generation students in
terms of using those supports?
Do they take advantage?
Do they use them more or lessdifferently than other students?

Yeah, so I'll, yeah, either one of you go
for it.
Yeah, I'll take it.
So yeah, so first of all, Ireally want to just mention,
before we kind of dive in here,I think it's really important
when working withfirst-generation college
students is that we really focuson the strengths.
So right now we're talkingabout the problems, but I really
want to flip the script andfocus more on their strengths,
the things they're trulybringing to the table, because I

(16:45):
feel like the deficit model issomething that can be very
detrimental when working withthese students.
So, if you do work with thesestudents, really focus on the
positives.
But to answer your question,vicki, I think honestly, a lot
of first-generation collegestudents kind of struggle with
reaching out to resources.
You know there is this amazingwell, it's not amazing, but it's

(17:09):
amazing phenomenal to study,but not necessarily a really
good experience for first-genstudents.
And that is the hiddencurriculum and that's basically
all the implicit and explicitthings are being said on
throughout the collegeexperience.
They're those hidden messagesyou hear.
You know like, hey, if you needhelp, go see an office hour,
what do you do during the officehours?
Or how do you play this game,like I tell all my students is
like college is kind of likethis game and some of us have
the rules and some of us don't,you know, and that's something
that's just, it's real.

(17:30):
You know I am a proud firstyear college student graduate
myself.
You know what I mean.
But I know it really took myadvice to help me kind of
navigate those types ofenvironments.
I didn't realize.
I remember one time when I wasgoing through undergrad I was
like one of my advisors was likehey, I have a problem with my
financial aid bill.
Where do I go?
And before I actually had myTRIO advisor because I'm a proud

(17:51):
TRIO alum as well because TRIOworks, shout out to all my TRIO
colleagues out there but theywere literally just giving me a
little snicker.
I was like, oh, financial aidduh and I duh.
And I was like I'm like, but itwasn't just a duh moment to me
because I didn't know.
You know, and I think somebodysays like you know, advisors, as
other professionals on thiscampus was like we assume,

(18:11):
assume all these rules areexplicit, but they're not.
A lot of them are implicit.
You know, where do you go totype through things?
What's that kind ofconversation like when I work
with my students, because theytend to not really reach out to
financial aid.
They tend to not reach out tome.
As an academic advisor, I try tomeet the students where they're
at, and one of the greatestquotes I ever told was by one of
my mentors, and stuff alwaystold me was meet students where

(18:34):
they're at, not where we wantthem to be.
And what he means by that isactually meet the students.
If they don't know wherefinancial aid is, talk to them
about financial aid, but let'sdon't talk about it.
Connect them to an individual.
You know, john and I both workat University of Albany, which
is a huge school.
There's probably around 17,000to 18,000 students, and that's
not even kind of graduate oreven doctoral student.

(18:54):
I love doctoral students aswell, and so because of that,
campus is quite big, it can feelquite large, not only on the
physical sense but on theemotional sense, on the stress
sense, and so I try to tell themis connect people to an
individual, and not only connectthem with the individual, but
also walk through and role play.
What is that kind ofconversation going to look like?
So let's say hypothetically,let's say I saw who needs to

(19:16):
meet with John Martinez.
I'm going to tell him hey, thisis John Martinez.
When you see them, call them MrMartinez, you know, because
they actually prefer to have alittle more.
John personally likes more John.
But for this matter's sakewe'll say just Mr Martinez,
because you don't know him yet,and let him figure this out.
But then go through and theseare the questions you should ask

(19:37):
Mr Martinez.
And then what other questionsdo you have about this process?
Let's write those things down.
Kind of have that little mock,that little role play, which I
know a lot of advisors kind ofhate, you know.
But I think it's really helpfulto kind of help these students
kind of articulate what theyneed to do and honestly, it
helps campus that is so largefeel so small.
And I think that's the goalwe're trying to do is show them
that there's a community andthere's a culture that's waiting
to support you.

(19:58):
You just have to go and lookfor it.
So, like I tell people all thetime I think it's really hard to
answer your original questionis like do those students
actually reach out to help?
I think some of them do, someof them don't.
You know what I mean, but Ithink it's really important to
focus on their strengths, liketheir pioneers, their leaders.
You know they're doing amazingthings on campus.
You know they're here atUAlbany or any other college for

(20:21):
a reason.
This wasn't some fluke, thatyou just happened to get a
drawing and then you actuallyend up getting into college.
So reminding them of thosethings, but also challenge them
as well, to kind of walk throughthe process with them, you know
, guide them step-by-step of theprocess, that's what's truly
going to help support themmoving forward.
But I think what's reallyimportant and we mentioned this
in our presentation is that thefirst-gen college student

(20:42):
experience is not a monolith,and neither should we be when
we're working with thesestudents.
There's not one way that'sgoing to work with all these
types of students.
You have to treat them each byan individual, case-by-case
basis, because I think that'swhat they truly deserve and what
they're going to get from alladvisors.

Wow, yeah, I really appreciate that you start
by talking about recognizetheir strengths, because it
makes me realize that when Iread about first-generation
students and when we talk aboutthem, often it's the obstacles
that they face and thechallenges that they face and

(21:21):
the lack, the things thatthey're missing, things like
that hidden curriculum that theydon't.
You know, they don't know whatthey don't know, and that's all
really important.
But they do come with certainstrengths that we may not focus
on enough and that's reallyhelpful.

And can I add to that too?
I think, like, even when I workwith my students too as well, I
think some students like,because they've been told up
into this point, they've alwaysbeen what do you lack?
What do you not have, you know,you're always told.
Like I had one student tellingme in the class that I teach,
they're like, when you look atthe definition of a
first-generation college student, already it's saying where
neither parent has owned acollege degree, you know, or

(22:06):
four-year model with iu'sfour-year college degree.
So they're already operating atdeficit even by the mere
definition.
So even before they come to us,and so like when they come to
us, like, oh man, I already feeldefeated.
So it's our job as advisors toshow them and have them actually
see the light that's trulylocked inside of them, you know,
and help them expose it to theworld.
And I would tell my studentssoon they always get joke around

(22:28):
about this, but it's true whenthey'll come see me what's safe
for an academic recovery, whichwe actually work with students
on academic probation as well,you know they always come with
shame in their heads down, likeyeah, I didn't do so well, and
everything, and they think I'mgonna ask him oh, hey, what
happened last semester?
But instead I ask hey, you gotan a in your forensic science
investigation class.
You know what?

(22:48):
What happened with that class?
That sounds really great.
Like how did you get that a?
Let's talk about that and usethat as leverage to help them in
their other classes as well.
And they're always so caughtoff guard like, oh, I think
you're going to come and scoldme.
I'm like I know you call me dadbecause side note my students
call me dad because all my dadjokes and all this kind of stuff
and they even give me a dad pie.
But that's a side note.

(23:09):
But I'm like, I'm not yourparent, I'm not here to scold
you.
I'm here to build you up.
I'm here to find the goodnessthat's inside of you that you
can't even see yet, and that'sthe beauty of our jobs.
So I always try to tell peopleis don't be afraid to focus on
their strengths and use that asleverage, because, honestly, the
students love that andeventually they can redefine
what first gen truly means tothem.

(23:30):
It's not a weakness, it'sactually a sense of pride.
Like it took me forever to nowsay I'm a proud first generation
college student graduate and,if I can encourage that since
their freshman year I won.
So don't be afraid.

Yeah, oh, good, that's it.
That that's really.
That's exciting.
It's exciting for students tothink about that, right, um, but
I want to take, I want to, Iwant to flip it then, um,
because they come with theseamazing strengths and you know
you need to help them find thosestrengths and recognize that
they have them.
And parents can can do that too, because I think sometimes as
parents, we're so worried aboutour student I don't know what I

(24:10):
want to say measuring up, and sowe're constantly at them, and
so this positive thing is reallyimportant.
But they do come with also somechallenges that all first-year
students come with challengesbecause they don't necessarily
know college and what to expect.

(24:30):
But there may be some extraobstacles and challenges for
first-generation students, and Iknow you talked about in your
presentation, about what youcalled the, and John mentioned
earlier, the first generationdilemma.
So I wonder, I don't know,zachary, do you want to talk a

(24:52):
little more about that?

Yeah, so what we call a dilemma is
because first-generation collegestudents are forever going
through this change, you know,through college.
You know when they come intocollege and by the time they
graduate, they're not the sameperson anymore.
I mean, neither is any otherstudent.
But for them specifically, youknow they may be having things
that are going on back home.
You know they're going toimpact them.

(25:16):
Why they actually go to college, you know.
And so how can we actuallycurrently learn from them and
how can they learn from us?
Like john mentioned this soperfectly before you know, I
mean about, like, ourpresentation, and why it works
so well is because it's like wecan learn from one another, go
into this, as their lives areforever changing.
Our lives are forever changingand if we don't neither one of

(25:38):
us address this, are we trulyliving in the moment to truly
actually find who we're actuallymeant to be?
So when you talk about somechallenges and stuff like that,
I have a lot of students who arelike, oh, I want to become a
doctor, I want to become alawyer.
I want these really high-payingjobs.
But when you really sit down andtalk to these students, it's
like why do they want to do this?

(25:59):
You know, some of them arebecause my family told me I had
to do this.
Some of them are saying becauseI don't want to actually end up
in the same situation myparents are trying to get out of
currently right now.
I have some students that a fewstudents will say, yeah, I
actually really love this stuffand that's great.
You know what I mean, butthat's not everyone's experience
.

Announcer (26:20):
So I think, trying to figure out what is the why and
kind of figure out.

Why do they want to pursue those things?
And if it's one of them isbecause, hey, I just don't want
to end up in the same situationas my parents.
You know they're choosing thatchoice out of fear.
And what else are they doingout of fear rather than actually
truly living in the present?
Like John mentioned before,impermanence is making sense and
kind of making peace with thesense that life is forever
changing and that there may bepockets of stability, but for

(26:45):
the most part life is naturallyunstable, and making sense and
make peace with that.
So, because they're operatingin a sense of fear, what else
are they doing out of fear?
Do they go to college out offear?
Are they choosing their majorsout of fear?
Are they joining certain clubsand organizations because they
think they can get that onedesired outcome, organizations
because they think they can getthat one desired outcome?

(27:06):
The thing I wish I tell mystudents I kind of illustrate it
is that no one piece of paperyou get is going to guarantee
you a job.
You know what I mean, and so Itry to tell them is your diploma
that you get is going to be thekey that opens up the door.
But guess what?
You still have to walk throughthat door.
And what are you walkingthrough that door with?
That's what's going to changethe system.
But but if we're so worriedright now because we're like, oh

(27:28):
, I want to change this onechange that we can't focus on
that, you know, because we don'tknow what that's going to be.
And I'm not a math person.
But I have some students whoreally like math and I said
you're operating like life isone plus one equals two, but
unfortunately, life is more like1x plus 4 equals unknown.
We can't answer that.
We don't know the outcome.

(27:48):
You know what I mean Because nomatter what we do, it may not
always end up being and that isreally the dilemma we're going
through these students areoperating in a sense of fear.
They're operating in a sense ofoh, I have to have this all
figured out.
And I tell them guess what?
You don't.
You know what I mean Becauseit's hard when you're a
first-year friend of God Collegeand you see, you know, let's
say, one of your class members,you know.

(28:09):
Let's say it's Zach, you know,and you look at Zach like, wow,
zach has it all figured out.
You know what I mean, but whyyou know.
First of all, zach doesn't.
Has it all figured out, or doeshe not?
You know, is he stillstruggling as well?
So I'm trying to tell peopleand all of my students I work
with is that it's okay to nothave it all figured out, but if

(28:31):
we're going to try to figure itout, let's live in this very
moment and give it our best shot.
Effort.
If you have that as a goal,that's great.
Let's keep that as a goal.
But where are we going to stillgo?
How are we going to make thebest of this moment to
eventually get to where wedesire, to where we actually
deserve to be?
And John, you can elaboratemore on this, because I know you
do amazing stuff as well.

Well, I think one of the things that we want to
sort of bring up.
When we did this presentationoriginally, we had talked about
the first generation collegedilemma, alongside the advisor
dilemma, which happens in a lotof advising.
We have a lot of appointmentsback to back, to back the busy
seasons, emails, phone calls,like things that are happening
all at the same time and, for asmuch as college students can

(29:12):
have a lot of things to takethem out of that present moment
and to not be able to, as Vickysaid before, enjoy their
experiences in college and to bepresent in what they're doing
in college.
Advisors can do the same thingand in this instance, in this
case as a parent myself, andobviously with the story, about
the springtails that happened tome already
many times is this idea that,like even as parents, we also

(29:33):
can get taken away from thepresent.
And so if we're havingconversations with our kids
about college and I'm a firstgeneration college student and
my kids won't be, because bothmy wife and I have gone to
college they're going to have adifferent experience than we did
because we had to sort offigure this stuff out on our own
and that will help us inhelping them do what they need

(29:53):
to do.
But a lot of times we don'tknow how to help.
Necessarily we don't know howto provide the information for
them that's going to help themnavigate college.
Even honestly, if you went tocollege back in 1982, college is
different now and what it lookslike now.
So it's very difficult, I think,for a lot of parents to think
about how to support studentsgoing through these experiences.

(30:14):
When frustration, collegestudents might not even feel
comfortable sharing thoseexperiences because they're
nervous about what their parentsmight say, or they're nervous
about the fact that they'redoing well and their parents did
not.
There's a lot of differentthings that can happen.
That allows that conversationto not be able to be as genuine
and present and honest as itshould be, and then sort of both
people sort of suffer for it.
Parents then don't know whattheir kids are doing and their

(30:36):
kids are struggling needlessly.
And then kids are having a hardtime either even just enjoying
college or being able to feellike they're prepared for what
happens afterwards college orbeing able to feel like they're
prepared for what happensafterwards.
And so this sort of dilemmahappens on both sides of like.
The students are going throughthese issues and they don't
really know what to think or doabout them.
But then also the parentseither may or may not know that
they're going through theseissues.
They may be putting really highexpectations on their students,

(30:56):
like Zach said before, to liketake them out of their current
situations as if it's sort of upto them and there's a lot of
pressure.
And there's a lot more pressurenow, I think, than there ever
was, especially when you hearall the talk about oh, college
is a scam, oh, there's no pointin going to college, oh, there's
no point doing this so it'slike people want to return on
their investment, and thatreturn we could never guarantee

(31:18):
in higher ed, because what we'reselling is not a guarantee.
It's an opportunity and you haveto sort of make the most out of
that opportunity, and in orderto do that you have to be as
present as possible in thatexperience, and when you're
carrying all that weight it'svery difficult to do that.

Announcer (31:32):
So that dilemma is a huge part of that process.

Wow, yeah, I'm trying to absorb it all.
Trying to absorb it all, tryingto think about how to focus on
the positive and understand thatfear that they're bringing and
the responsibilities that's sooften that they have
responsibilities outside of justbeing a student,

(32:02):
responsibilities to the familyand every student these days as
well.
It shouldn't generalize quitethat much, but the majority of
students these days are worriedabout finances and student debt
and you know all of these thingsgoing on, and then parents who

(32:23):
want so much to help and supportbut don't know so.
So then I think, as I listen toall of that that you're saying,
you've kind of set us up, um,for this, this dilemma, and who
these students are, and youstarted out by talking about

(32:43):
impermanence and mindfulness,and that's important for all of
us, I think you know these days.
So can you help us connect thosedots a little bit?
I mean, you talk about it'simportant to be present.
You know, as parents, to bepresent and really listening.

(33:05):
I'm a communication professor,so we talk a lot about listening
and how to listen and how wedon't listen very well, because
our mind is racing firstgeneration students, because I
think you do.
On being present, it's onething to say be present, but

(33:29):
that doesn't necessarily meanthat you are.
So how do you help them learnto do that?

So I think this actually goes back to something
that I noticed pretty early on,because when we make, when we
have our incoming faculty inclass class, we read their
essays and we put the schedulesfor them and we do that and I
started noticing really early onthat students are very, very I
don't know if parents know this,but students are very, very
honest in those essays, likesome essays many essays like

(33:58):
some are about.
Like you know, they hit the homerun and it was like the best
moment of their life.
And then some are like tragicstories that they're sharing,
that they're carrying with them,from how divorce has affected
them, from how abuse hasaffected them, from how just so
many different things that, like, when we tend to think of
students, we think they haven'tlived long enough yet to have

(34:19):
many experiences yet in life.
But some students have livedlifetimes before coming to
college in ways that we haven'tdealt with those things.
And I remember I went to gotalk to someone after I had read
a really sort of heavy essayand I looked at the person.
I said you know, it seems to methat, like the best thing we
can do for our kids is to begood ourselves and to be able to

(34:40):
then share that ability to beable to cope with the things
that we deal with and that we gothrough every day with them,
because a lot of times some ofthe bad stuff goes to them and
we don't want that to happen,but it does tend to happen, and
so I think to answer thisquestion is really going back to
that idea that, in order tohelp someone else.
Be mindful.

(35:00):
You have to be mindful yourself.
You have to be present as muchas you can be, which is why we
wanted to have this conversationoriginally, because so many
advisors get caught up in thedaily grind, the thing that you
have to do, and the numbers andthe retention and all these
things that like, yeah, I meanwe need students, students need
to pay for college, so thecollege has money to do things,

(35:21):
and all that stuff is real.
But the reality is.
My favorite part is everysingle time I get to have a
conversation with a studentabout life.
Like class is cool, like whattheir major is nice, but like
life, because this is the firsttime they're just starting to
figure out that life is way morecomplicated than they thought
it was.
It's way bigger than theythought it was.

(35:41):
It has more to do witheverything else, has less to do
with them than they thought itdid, and it's now this like this
moment in time where they haveto figure out what they think
about that, and that is anatural process that every adult
has to go through.
But for them it's sort of likebeing smashed right there, right
in that moment, like, oh mygoodness, this is way different
than I thought it was and that'sso easy to take them out of

(36:03):
that moment in the present andso often the more that we can do
to be present, and by that Imean.
I say it a lot, but by that Ijust mean like I'm not worried
about what I'm doing 20 minutesfrom now, a year from now, if
I'm going to be successful 40years from now, am I going to
still be married 30 years fromnow?
Am I going to die at 70 or dieat 40?
I don't know.
I don't know any of that.

(36:24):
But if I sit here thinkingabout it all the time and I'm
doing nothing but making plansabout all these things that I
can't control and all thesethings that I can't predict,
then I'm going to miss on justbeing here right now enjoying
this conversation and for melike right now.
I'm just here having thisconversation.
I love it, and I feel like whenI have my conversations with my
students, I'm not thinking aboutmy next student, I'm thinking

(36:44):
about just having thatconversation with that student.
And that's how we end up having40, 50, an hour long
conversations, because it's soeasy to be like oh my goodness,
tell me more about that, andwhat do take tomorrow?
Or the fact that they don'tknow how to ask for help, or the
fact that they failed that examthe other day and they don't
know what to do, or they're onprobation, or their parents
don't know they were struggling.
You know, and I think a lot ofthat just comes down to our

(37:15):
ability to practice mindfulnessas much as we can, and there's
so many resources out there forhow to do this, like yoga and
meditation and breathingtechniques, and there's a lot of
different ways and wehighlighted some of them that,
like, advisors, could do in theoffice.
But, like I mean, some parentsalready they go to the gym, they
meditate, they do all thesethings and they might find that
they can be present in themoment that they're doing those

(37:37):
things, but how do you then bepresent?
even when you're not necessarilydoing those things.
How do you find it so that youcan, when a student comes home
and they come home for the breakand you're caught up in your
job and things that you're doing.
you're used to not having themin the house.
All of a sudden, they show upand they're talking about an
experience they had in school.
How do you slow down as aparent so that you can just, in

(37:58):
that moment, take an hour, take15 minutes, do whatever go out
for a walk, go out for ice cream, do whatever and just sit in
that moment and have aconversation with them about
what is college really mean forthem?
Do they feel pressure incollege?
Do they feel pressured becauseof something you have said?
Do they feel pressured becauseof something that you've done?
This is not coddling them.

(38:19):
This is just being able to bethere for them and be there with
them and have them listen toyou, the things that you go
through.
Be honest with them about whatthat looks like, so that they
can go.
Oh, my parent does want to hearme.
They were just really busy backthen or they were just thinking
about something else back then,as opposed to my parents don't
care what I'm doing, so I don'tcare to tell them what's
happening, and that happens.
We have those conversations sooften that I feel like the more

(38:40):
that we can practice thosemoments of just being there is
really important.

And easier said than done.
Yes, especially in moments ofhigh anxiety, which often do
happen when students come homefrom break and all.
Do you have any?
Either of you have anysuggestions of a couple of kinds
of questions that can be thatcan open the door to some of

(39:08):
these conversations or ways ofstarting conversations that say
I'm here, I'm present.

You know, it's so funny because, like when I
first learned about studentdevelopment theory, it seemed so
obvious because it started withask them how they are, ask them
where they're at Questions thatlike we ask all the time but we
don't always stop and actuallylisten to the answer.

Announcer (39:32):
So you ever walk down the hallway and say, hey, how
are you?
And they go oh, how are you?

I'm great and you know, and it's really, I don't
think there's a one question,and Zach could also point this
to.
I don't think there'snecessarily one question that
you can ask.
I think it's the quality of thequestions, like of the
conversation that you're having.
And I remember I read in a bookone time it said don't wait to
speak.
And so often in conversationyou might be talking about

(39:57):
something, and it triggeredsomething in my mind and now I'm
waiting to say the thing that Iwant to say and I'm no longer
listening to you say the thingthat you're saying and we do
that a lot.

Announcer (40:06):
I've done it with my own family.

I've done it with you know, and you're so geared
up for what you're saying thatyou completely didn't even
listen for the rest of what theysaid.
And I think sometimes, if let'ssay, a student is talking to a
parent and the student is sayingsomething and the parent is
like whoa whoa no what.
I'm trying to say is so I think,instead of looking for sort of

(40:27):
the types of questions, it'smore of like let the thought go
out, let the thought, let theentire thought come out before
coming up with an opinion on it.
If you find yourself like, oh,I want to say, you know what,
let me set that aside and let mecontinue listening to what
they're saying so I can see if Ireally understand what they're
saying, and then say, hey, I'mwhat I'm hearing from you.
Is this, does that seem likewhat you're actually saying?
And if there isn't a consensusthere to really try and sort of,

(40:50):
in that moment, try and figureout what that is, because if you
leave it with just like, yeah,that's fine, that's what I meant
, whatever, and it's not reallywhat they meant, then you have
those misconceptions andmisunderstandings that lead to
conversation breaking down, andI think, the more that you can
be like I really want to hearwhat you have to say.
For the next hour, it's justyou and me.
Or for the next 20 minutes,it's just you and me.

(41:10):
I really want to know, and,without judgment, listen first
and then have a conversationabout how does that make you
feel, though, when you're incollege and you feel pressure
because of what I said.
How does it feel?
Does it affect your work?
Does it affect your classes?
Does it affect how you're doingexams?
Do you find yourself?
Did you meet people?
Have you met anybody yet?
Do you find it hard meetingpeople in school?

(41:31):
Well, here's some of the thingsI did to meet some people.
Maybe you could try those youknow and have.
We're all human.
Like it's not like a parent isless human than a student.
I think we just need to thinkback to those moments when we
had those struggles and may notbe the same struggles, but we
had struggles you know, to beable to do some of that.

It's really interesting because it it it
makes sense and and you know,don't wait to speak is a great
way of putting it.
I, you know, I always talkabout don't listen with the
intent to respond, which is thesame thing, and most of the
people, I think, who arelistening to the podcast are,

(42:10):
you know, either college parentsalready or they have a student
headed to college, and itstrikes me that in a lot of
instances, parents who do thisare going to be amazed at the
results that they can get, butand it's going to for many

(42:32):
families it's going to be thefirst time this has happened,
and so it may take a little timeof everyone adjusting a little
and students being a little bitskeptical at first, because this
has not been our mode ofoperating for now, and that
happens to us, right?

Because not every student trusts us implicitly
and that happens to us, right,because not every student trusts
us.
And Zach and I were talkingearlier about like we definitely
have a list of students thatmay or may not think that we're
doing things well, you know.
I mean, like everybody hasthose students that like they
just don't necessarily connectthat way, but sometimes it just
takes time.
I had a student that for twoyears we talked via zoom and the
conversation just never wentanywhere and I kept saying, if
she just comes in one time, justin person, one time, I think we

(43:14):
can get there.
And finally, two years in, shecame in just randomly and we had
like an hour conversation andit was like she was like oh,
this is what you meant this, andit was like the first time in
two years that we were able tofinally have that conversation.
But we recognized that, like weweren't having that
conversation before and that wasokay, you know, yeah, it could.

(43:35):
would.
It be great if it did?
It would be awesome if youcould get to be honest 100
percent all the time.
Yeah, but people are people andI feel like having some
information is better thanhaving none at all and having
some relationship is better thanhaving none at all.
And for students that parentalrelationship is so important to
the college experience.
If they know you're OK at home,they can let themselves lose at
school.

(43:55):
And if they don't, or if theyfeel like they need to be
responsible for what's happeningboth at home and at school,
whether it's meaning to or not,then it's going to be really
hard to feel like they don'twant to waste quote unquote time
.
It's like how can you wastetime it's got?
You're just discoveringyourself.
There's no way to waste time.
Discovering yourself.
That's just life, and I thinkso many times if we can't sort

(44:20):
of get out of that way, it getsreally hard for them.
So I think it's really like it'sokay that it takes time, it's
okay that if it never happensthe way that you want it to, or
the relationship is never whatyou want it to be, it's just to
be there.
That's our job, right Is to bethere, without, without judgment
, to be there for them and tojust help them navigate their
experiences and again, alwayseasier said than done and that's
the work that we have to doourselves.
They have to do the work fordoing, being more present

(44:42):
themselves and being in collegeand doing whatever, and then we
have to do the work to recognizewhen we are standing in their
way because we're helping, we'renot letting them do what they
need to be doing yeah, and Ithink also to add on that too as
well, I think with mindfulness,it's all about practice.

You know, like I'm a musician, I love
playing music, and so I try totell people like, hey, when you
first pick something that youwere really good at right now
and so for me I would say bassguitar, because I love playing
bass guitar and I was like I wasnever good when I first picked
up my bass guitar.
How did I get good?
I practiced day in and day out.
It's not about being perfect.
It's like practice overperfection.

(45:17):
You know what I mean, and so Itell my students, when it comes
to mindfulness, it's the samething.
There'll be times when Irecognize myself.
I'm like, oh man, I am notbeing present whatsoever and I
need to divert back to.

I need to work on those types of things and
admitting those that like you'renot going to be perfect every
single time, but as long as youput the effort in, that's what
matters, and I think that'swhat's important, and I think
students, if it's the parentthat's working at that, students
will recognize the effort.
Yeah, exactly, and and thatthat goes a long long way.

Our children are very perceptive and I don't
think we give them enough creditfor being able to pick up on
the things that we think we'rehiding really well.
You know that they are and again, that's you see in the essays
that they're giving outinformation that I'm like I
don't even know if their parentseven know.
They're saying this stuff topeople that they don't even know
.
You know, because it is stuffthat stands out to them and

(46:10):
they're paying attention andthey're they're looking at what
their families are doing andthey're looking what their
friends are doing and theirteachers and advisors, and
they're making their ownjudgments and I'd rather them be
able to have the conversationabout how to clear up any
misunderstandings rather thansort of live with those and feel
like that they weren't able tobe the people they wanted to be
because of it.

Yeah, and you know it's a little bit of it is
counterintuitive, I think,because we're, as a Western
society, we're very much go, go,go and do and be active and and
what you're talking about, itis active.
I mean that's why, Zachary,what you're saying about
practicing matters, it is activebut it feels as though it's not
.
We so often think of listeningas a passive thing rather than
actively being present, and sofor parents to think about the
way to better work at supportingmy student, the way to be
better engaged with my student,is to take a step back and not
do so much.
It takes a little while to wrapyour head around it.

Yeah exactly and kind of like.
I came from a household from amodest income and so basically I
remember, even just talking tomy dad one day and my dad's like
Zach, I'm just tired.
I remember he was talking aboutwe were struggling with some
things that were going onpersonally, financially.
I'm just tired.
I just don't know if I couldjust hit the reset button again.

(47:45):
It's like how, when you'reworking with first-gen students
not ever someone coming from alow-income background, but let's
say you are working for someonewho has more of a modest income
household how do you convincesomeone where, if you don't see
something tangible, it's notthere, you know, because you
don't even know where the nextmeal is going to come from.
Now you're trying to tell themto think about like hey, don't
worry about your future, whenthey don't even know where the

(48:05):
next meal is going to behappening or how they're going
to get that or how they're goingto get the money to pay for
their books.
And I think that's the hardestpart and, like you mentioned
before, vicky, is like we're avery go, go, go society, very
active, and things have to betangible.
And if things are not tangible,they're not real.
But it's like no, this is real.
This is a real society.

To your point, zach, and this goes back to not
just the challenges and thechallenging bits of like they're
worried about the next meal andso on.
This is I had a student come inwho had just recently gotten
into med school through an earlyassurance program.
It basically like a earlygraduation, automatically
admitted into med school program, and she was a walk-in student.
She wasn't mine, she's kind ofwalked in and she was like, so
I'm watching my major because Iwanted to do this.

(48:45):
And I just got into med schooland just wanted to do it.
And I was like, hold on onesecond, what did you just say?
And she was like, oh, I justgot into med school, but like
I'm asking about my major and Iwant to find out.
I was like we'll get to that ina second.
What do you mean?
You just got into med school,like what does that mean?
And she was like well, I gotinto med school because of early
assurance and it was cool, andI was like wow like that's
amazing.

(49:11):
And she was like you can be fora moment, just sit with me in
this room and just let's justyou know, I have students who
will not go to med school.
I have students who right nowwill not go to med school.
I have students who want to gothat can't go.
They either can't afford it orthey don't have the grades and
they just won't be able to gothere.
I have students who, sincebirth, have wanted to and they
made a decision to change.
I have so many students thatare not going to be in the

(49:32):
position that you're in.
How amazing is it that you're in?
You did it Like you're done,like you did the thing that was
great.
And she was like yeah, I guessthat's true.
And I was like yeah, but no, no, but think about it right.
Like you right now have oneless thing to worry about on
your road to becoming a doctor,and this was a huge step forward
.

(49:53):
But the problem is, if you'rejust in the go, go, go, go, go,
like you were just saying, thenwhen you become a doctor, will
you actually appreciate the factthat you became a doctor, or
will it be what's the next thingthat I have to do and what's
the next thing I have to do?
Now that I became a doctor, Igot to win an award.
Now that I won an award, I haveto do this.
Now that I have to do about welet that stuff sit over there
and for just one moment, we justsit here and we just sit with

(50:16):
the fact that you got into medschool and she sat back and was
like huh, you know, I neverreally thought about it for the
next hour.
We talked about her love ofmusic and books.
We talked about the fact thatshe had she talked to admissions
in the med school that she gotinto and she asked how did I get
in and what, like what, gotaccepted?
and they go well, your goodgrades are good grades,

(50:36):
everybody has good grades, so noone cared about that.
What we really liked were thebits of your personality in your
essay and I was like amazingthat you got yourself into med
school.
That's phenomenal.
I didn't do it.
Guys didn't do it.
You did that.
Your personality, who you areas a human being, did that and
we ended that hour just.
It was a great conversation andand she, we did the thing that

(50:57):
she wanted to do originally andI was like I hope I didn't keep
you too long.
I hope that you know whateverand she goes no, no, honestly,
thank you so much for thisconversation, because I had
never actually stopped toappreciate that I had done this
and and she was like a 3.9.
So it was like amazing, allthis stuff was amazing and she
was like so I really appreciateyou know you're doing that.
She's a first-gen collegestudent and you know part of an

(51:19):
underrepresented population andI was like you did things that
people could only dream of doingand this is just step one.
I have no doubt you're gonna doamazing things, but I really
need you to just make sure thatyou're always checkpointing
yourself to be like wow, I didthis thing and as much as we
talk about the fact they mightnot be present for the bad
things, even the good things,like zach always talked about

(51:40):
when he graduated, and it waslike a relief and supposed to
just wow.
It was like I did this greatthing, that, like it's, you can
miss the good things too ifyou're not being exactly.

Can I say one quick thing about that, too
vicky if you don't mind?
Yeah, like to kind of add onthat.
That's what I was going to sayis that, like I had one of my
students who was a first proudfirst-gen graduate.
Now he's now going to his dreamlaw school and everything he
told me and I could probablytell you hear the loud scream
coming from my office came fromboth the student and myself just
want to probably say that, uh,yeah, and when you cross the

(52:14):
stage you know, I saw him and hewas actually smiling and I told
him, like you know, what's soamazing about this is like you
know how many first generationcollege student graduates cross
this stage and they just go, oh,I did it.
And they have a giant sigh ofrelief.
That's not what you want to hear.
When you have the bestaccomplishment your whole entire
life, you want to do what youdid, where you were cheering,

(52:35):
you were shouting, you knowwhere you may have a little
emotional cry, you know in agood way yeah, you know I mean
the positive way, you know, thatemotional release, all that
types of stuff.
And it's like that's what I wantto see from my students and I
even tell that to my students,too, in my first gen class like
my goal is for by the end ofyour four years here if if it
takes you four years to graduateis that you're going to look
back on your experience and it'snot just going to be a

(52:57):
performative checkbox.
Instead, this is going to be alife-changing experience that
you're going to inspire so manyother people to come after you
and now that also inspire otherfirst-gen students who I never
got to bump into.
One of my favorite quotes is weonly rise when we lift each
other up, and I love that quotebecause it's so true, because
it's like now we're doing thegreat work.

(53:18):
Now you know, like JohnMartinez and I, we're doing all
this great, awesome work andwe're also lifting other people,
and those other people arelifting other people that
surround them, other classmates.
But we can only do it when wetruly focus on the moment.
So don't just accomplish with acheck, mark the box.
You don't make it just to be asigh of relief be this and give
it the weight that deserves tocelebrate your great

(53:38):
accomplishment.
And that's why I try to tell mystudents to all the time.
So it's just amazing.
So, john, glad you mentionedbecause that's really what I was
going to bring up is don't makethings a sigh of relief, you
know.
Make them to celebrate them aswhat they deserve and the weight
they have, you know you know,as we're recording this, this is
.

This is toward the end of july and I still have a
month of vacation left beforeschool starts, but now I don't
want to wait.
I would be making me want towant to go and meet with my
students.
So so much for the rest of mysummer vacation yeah, she's now
here focused on president.

She's only focused on meeting with her
students.

I know, I know you get a few advisors talking
together and it could go on fora long time and one of the
things maybe, as we sort ofbegin to wrap up here that you
shared when you did yourpresentation for Nakata and I
know it was geared towardadvisors to think about who

(54:37):
first-gen students are, but youhad a couple of case studies
that you shared with theaudience of a couple of students
, which really helped, I think,help us as advisors, think about
who these students are.
But I think it would be helpfulto parents as well, and I think

(54:57):
that some of the people wholisten to this podcast also are
professionals who work withstudents.
So can you share those coupleof case studies with us as a as
a way to pull some of thistogether?

Yeah, so with one of the students that we talked
about.
It was he was a student whosort of really went to college
never really thinking about whatcollege was.
First generation student kindof just picked a college
randomly and thinking about,like going into college, sort of

(55:32):
have those conversations aboutlike, ah, just kind of picking
things that were interesting andand never really thought about
like what the future necessarilyheld, um, but mostly had a lot
of other things on the mind.
Uh oh, he would always talkabout dating and meeting people
and socializing and just kind oflike wanting to get more out of
, sort of like just meetingpeople and kind of being the

(55:54):
college experience I guess,found himself sort of.
He was working on a project inhis senior year and he the
project was kind of like a bitoutside his comfort zone in
terms of like what he was ableto do and sort of talk all the
time about what that means andhow do you complete that?
And he didn't really realize atthe time, I think that he was
first gen, so he kind of justhad gotten to where he was just

(56:17):
in doing things, never reallythought about being first gen,
but then kind of hit thisroadblock of like here's this
senior project he has to work on, and the other students in the
class seemed to kind of knowwhat they were doing, but he
didn't, and so he sort of had ahard time figuring out how to
write this big paper that youhad to write and how to do

(56:37):
research and how to do all thatstuff.
And so he kind of kept puttingit off because it was like it
was a bit too much, I think, tothink about at the time, and so
he would kind of put it off andalways talk about how you should
really do it, really do it.
But then you'd be like, oh good, good, good and.
But it's almost like he seemssort of too embarrassed to ask
for help and his family didn'treally know what he was doing in
college because they weren'treally college graduates and so

(56:59):
he didn't really know how to askfor them.
So he was kind of just doingthis on his own and the deadline
for it came up.
It was actually like the lastsemester that he was here and it
was like pushing it off andthen graduation came, still
hadn't finished the paper andthen, like a month after
graduation came still hadn'tfinished the paper.
And then, like a month aftergraduation came, still doesn't
have his diploma because hestill hasn't finished the paper.
And the professor kept askinghim like hey, can you submit it,

(57:21):
can you submit it?
And he really almost didn'tgraduate at all because he
didn't submit it until the very,very last, very last moment and
to this day, I think, stillsays it's like the worst piece
of writing he's ever done.
But um, you know, he, he reallydidn't have a lot of
opportunities to.
I guess he might have had a lotof opportunities to ask, but he
just didn't take advantagebecause he didn't notice them,

(57:43):
he didn't recognize them, hedidn't realize that he needed to
.
Um, but he, he really almost puthis entire college sort of in
jeopardy just because he wasn'tprepared to sort of have these
conversations about asking forhelp and not knowing what to do,
and this was sort of wayoutside of his comfort zone.
He didn't know.
You know that he was anxiousabout it, and so it really was

(58:05):
an example of, even in instanceswhere things aren't going crazy
difficult or crazy bad, that,like it, affects everyone
differently, in different waysand and sometimes it might not
come up all the way until theend uh, sometimes it comes up
right when you first get tocollege, and sometimes it comes
up in grad school, uh, and so alot of times it's like you, you
never really know when it'sgoing to show up.
But being first gen and theissues associated with being

(58:27):
first gen can affect all of usat any time.
Um, that sort of impostersyndrome, what that looks like,
um can be really detrimental fora lot of people, and so I think
it's sort of a good example oflike what, on a sort of like
more benign sort of way, how itcan really kind of be, how do
you say it can really sort ofpoison that experience.

When you least expect it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and I had a student.
I remember one student was likeliterally during their fall
semester, their very firstsemester, and I remember they
were talking about how theirfather just abruptly lost their
job.
Their father got laid off justbecause they were trying to cut
down, I guess I want to say inthe area His dad worked for,
like basically as a pestelimination, and basically what

(59:11):
they were trying to do wasrezone all the districts and
unfortunately the zone theyworked in got cut.
So his dad actually ended uplosing his job and that was a
primary source of income formost of his family, not on top
of that, but, um, also theirwell that they had, because they
had a well at their house,because he grew up in a very
rural area, their well ended uprunning dry and so that ended up
happening to his well, so theywere out without water

(59:32):
throughout a week.
And basically because he wentto college, you know, and it was
his very first semester, verybig semester, what ended up
happening is his parents kind oflooked at him as like more the
pioneer and like, looked at himas like, oh, this is the person
like the prodigal son is, youknow going off and they

(59:59):
basically would call himfrequently, nonstop, just being
like like, hey, we need you tohelp.
You know you are a voice ofreason.
You're going to college likeyou're mr smart guy.
You know I mean things likethat, mr college and everything.
And so just kind of having thaton itself we're talking about,
like you know, parents, you know, I mean I even the positive
side, you know can sometimesweigh a lot on these students,
you know, because they arelooked at as the scene of, like
the hope, like they're going tohelp their family get out of
this situation.
You know, and that's whythey're putting all this weight
in college and they're carryingthat with them.
You know, and I remember evenjust like talking with the

(01:00:20):
student and just trying to workthrough them and just trying to
be like, hey, you can getthrough this, you know, I mean
like, use this experience.
And one thing I think wasreally important was, um, he
mentioned that one personactually told him was like use
this, this experience, at whatyou're going through, what does
it feel like?
And I remember the student saidit felt horrible, it felt
disgusting.
He's like good, remember that,because then one day, when you

(01:00:41):
get a job and you're workingwith people, you're going to
bump into someone who's justlike you, and I want you to
remember that negative feeling.
So when you have that studentwho's going to work with you,
don't make them have thatnegative feeling again.
Open that, open your heart,open that door for that student.
Don't become the gatekeeper.
You know, because you know howrough it was to go through this
and that's why you're here.

(01:01:02):
That's what you need to workwith this person and because
only then you know communitystudents truly learn from those
things, and so I think that'swhat's really important.
That's why the students havereally kind of helped him.
Moving forward was knowing that,like someone actually saw
inside of him someone that hehad, that he never realized that
he had, but also someone whowas also willing to empathize
with the struggle, even thoughthis person admitted, like the

(01:01:24):
person he talked to, wasn't afirst-gen grad himself, you know
.
So all these great things, Ithink it doesn't really matter
where you come from or who youtalk to.
Just be that opening ear, focusin on the moment and encourage
these students to be like hey,yes, you may be coming through a
lot of stuff, there may be alot of things going on in the
background, but if we can justfocus on the moment and use this
negative feeling that we haveand channel into something

(01:01:45):
that's more positive, that'swhat's going to change the game
moving forward.

Vicki Nelson (01:01:49):
So, yeah, and I think thinking about both of
those students is going to helpboth parents and professionals.
You know whether, whatever'sgoing on, Can you tell us
anything more about those twostudents?

John Martinez (01:02:06):
Yeah.
Surprised that us and ourexperiences, and honestly, I
think for both of us us, that'sone of the reasons why we got
together in in doing this too.
Uh, he does a lot of work.
Zach does a lot of work withfirst gen students and, um, I
did sort of not, I didn't doanything in first gen really
before we sort of talked aboutit, except for just I was first

(01:02:27):
gen but I didn't realize.
I was first gen until gradschool and uh, until I realized
that, like oh man, this wholetime I've been first gen and but
when looking back at a lot ofthe things that Zach had talked
about, especially in talkingabout how first generation
college students dealt withthings and then what would sort
of help support them, the onlyreason I got that far was
because of actually and I'llgive her credit Stacy Zyskowski,

(01:02:48):
who is like an advisor here atthe university, but she was an
office manager at the time insociology who took the time.
Advisor here at the university,but she was an office manager at
the time in sociology who tookthe time.
I used to work there as a workstudy and she would always talk
to me about life, about school,about my family, about her
family.
She was at my wedding.
She knows my family, she knowseverybody.
She was the one person whoreally took the time to listen

(01:03:09):
to me and I didn't know I neededthat because I didn't know that
it mattered, but it was becauseI could always go to her that I
didn't actually need itanywhere else.
I had someone on campus who wasthat sort of central point.

Announcer (01:03:23):
And I was close to my family.

But my family didn't know what I was doing.
They didn't know what collegewas, they didn't know what was
going on.
And you know, I came also froma modest income.
I had a single mom and she wasworking two jobs.
I'm not a single mom and shewas working two jobs and a lot
of it was just like we just needto go to college.
That's what people do andwithout taking that into account
, I just it didn't hit me toomuch later on in my undergrad
career when I started to realizethere were there were gaps in

(01:03:44):
my knowledge about how tosucceed through college that
have affected me in grad school,still in trying to finish grad
school, that until reallytalking to Zach about first gen
and what the real sort of theissues to think about are, I
hadn't really ever thought aboutin my own life and then looking
back and being like, oh damnthat is.

That is what happened , and, oh man, imagine if I
would have had that, thatinclination then to do that
thing.

Um then I wouldn't have, barely almost not
graduated, because and I didwell in school it was just that
one thing.
I just it was the Achilles heel.
It was the Achilles heel, itwas the thing that I I didn't
know how to ask for help, andthat has been a pervasive thing
in my life for a long time.
And so in thinking about thispresentation, it was like, oh
man, that was, it was such a bigpart of my life that I was so
embarrassed by the time Igraduated Cause it didn't really

(01:04:37):
notice it until much laterbecause just there wasn't no one
really talked about first gen.
No one talked to me as a firstgen.
No one had no one talked to meabout what that meant or what it
looked like.
I thought it was just likeeverybody else, and it turned
out that there was just somepart that I was missing yeah,
and then.

Zachary DesJardins (01:04:51):
So today, like uh, john martinez mentioned
, my person is actually truly me.
Um, I was a student.
I explained, but one thing Ithink is actually really unique
about my situation was I wasn'tgoing to college when this was
happening.
Um, I did a kind of a fewchallenges, but the story I'm
talking about actually happenedmy first year on the job,
actually a couple of months in,uh, actually.

(01:05:12):
So what ended up happening is Iactually started my job in june
of 2020 and I remember thesituation I explained to you
before actually happened backhome to my family and I actually
already graduated.
My dad's like, oh, zach, wereally need, we really need your
help.
You know we need you to go backhome.
I know you just accepted thejob at ualbany, you know me, but
right now you're two and a halfhours away from home.
We need you to come back backhome.
You know you got to help us out.

(01:05:33):
You know we're reallystruggling and all that stuff,
and I know my parents didn'tmean it to be malicious or be
rude and stuff, but that's howit is in my family.
We're very close.
We really want to help eachother succeed.
It meant like well, how do weget out of this?
How do we figure this out?

(01:05:56):
My boss at the time, you know,a shout out to Mike Giroux.
I love you, fam.
He literally said we were on aZoom call and he just said hey,
I just noticed, like you, knowyou're a little out of it right
now, you know, is everythingokay?
And I was like, yeah, I kind ofwant to talk to you if that's
okay.
And so I literally went up tohis office and had a Zoom call
because unfortunately it's inthe midst of COVID and I
literally talked to my Mike.
I'm just want to say thanks forthe offer.
This has been amazing.
I learned a lot even with onlyworking here for the first two

(01:06:18):
months.
But I got to go back home youknow what I mean and I said
thank you for so much for thisopportunity, but I just can't
work here anymore.
And I remember thatconversation I had with Mike was
really one of the most likelife changing conversations I've
had maybe I would say fivelife-changing conversations I
can really remember to a T.
That was one of them and, likeI mentioned before, mike

(01:06:39):
literally sat me down and waslike hey, remember that, you
know that feeling that you feelyou know what I mean.
You're going to have otherstudents that are going to come
to you and they're going to feelthe same exact thing and that's
why you're here.
You're here as an advisorbecause you could basically
relate to these students on somuch more of a personal lens
than you'll ever imagine.
He's like don't throw away thisawesome, amazing opportunity
because you're trying to fixthings.

(01:07:00):
You know what I mean back homeand focus right now on the
present, think about all theamazing things you're doing
right now and that's what'sgoing to lead you forward.
And honestly, he was right.
You know what I mean and I seethat every single day, every
single time.
You know what I mean and I seethat every single day, every
time I work with this show, I'mlike, oh my god, I'm just
reminded of my why and I'm veryprivileged to have that is that
every single day I work withthese students, I'm always

(01:07:21):
remembered of my why and why I'mhere.
You know I mean John Martinez.
You know he's literally myneighbor in my house.
I find that he's literally likeright over there you know so
you'd probably hear me right nowand all our conversations.
But, like even people like johnmartinez, I learned so much from
you know, this is my very firstjob here at ualbany, post grad.
I had a job before but I lostit unfortunately due to um, but

(01:07:43):
he's not getting the great renew, but this is my first full-time
been at my job, love my job.
It's amazing.
I'm like I'm truly living thedream, like I joke around to it
all the time.
But I I learned people from theJohn Martinez Cause.
John Martinez, I remember, toldme he's like hey, dude, why
don't you just feel like?
Do you ever just like feel likeyou're very like, go, go, go,
go, go, go?
But do you ever just like sitdown and actually like feel?

(01:08:04):
And I'm not gonna lie, at themoment I'm like I really don't
know.
Like you know what I mean, whatdoes that even mean?
Until one day when I literallywas talking to him and I really
had an existential crisis you'rewelcome I felt like in his
office and I was like, oh mygosh, I I don't know what that
like is to feel.
I don't know what that's like,and so I'm like I'm imagining

(01:08:26):
I'm trying to tell my studentshow to feel, so certain amongst
your uncertainty, but I can'teven do that myself yeah you're,
and so to me, like that wasjust a groundbreaking thing and
I was like that's when I need towork and I've worked on and
ever since then I was like it'sopened up my eyes, not only
physical to physical things, butlike beyond the metaphysical
you know, into, like students,emotions, the feelings I feel,

(01:08:47):
like that connection I have withmy students is just so much
more greater, and even thereason about how my colleagues
like I mean, john, do you mindif I put you on blaster a little
bit, but like you already did,like six times, okay, okay, but
like there was like there waslike.
So that like one time I rememberjohn told me, like he's like
you said, but you're doing suchgreat work he's like, he's like
you, even made me realize I'mactually a proud first-gen

(01:09:08):
graduate and I've never saidthat.
Remember that, john, when youtold me that like you're like,
you made me realize that what Iaccomplished was actually a
great thing, and so we learnedfrom each other, and that's why
we decided to do thispresentation, because it's like
I learned from john's specialtythrough the impermanence, but
he's also learned a lot from myadvocacy and my knowledge of
first students and we thought itonly made sense to kind of

(01:09:30):
combine it together.
But why?
I'm here to tell you that onestory is that like if we truly
give those students that oneperson, it all it takes is that
one person to truly make adifference.
Mike could have easily went upto me as a supervisor about like
zach, I really appreciate yousaying that, but nope, no, can
do.
Go ahead, go off, do your thing, don't come back.

(01:09:50):
Instead, he went up to me, waslike no, zach, use this moment
and use it to inspire otherpeople we can do this anymore
our students.
And that literally changed thewhole trajectory of my life.
I've now been at ualbany forfour years, you know a little
over four years now, four yearsin a month, and I never would
have been able to even tell youthat if I would have had that
one moment with mike before, Icould have been gone by now.

(01:10:12):
But I'm still here four yearand a half years later, and
that's when it's so true, somany words celebrating.

So yeah, that was a really long experience, I
think these stories and youryour story is really pulled
together, what you've beentalking about throughout all of
this, and I would like to keepgoing forever, but I suspect.
I think I listened to but youknow your bottom line of being

(01:10:38):
there and being present, whetheryou're a parent or whether
you're a professional workingand being that you know knowing
that you could be that oneperson for a student and that
one person could be a parent orit could be someone else and

(01:11:01):
helping them to take the time inthe moment and I love your two
stories that you know reallyillustrate how different the
experience can be and howdifferent the timetable can be
of when it might impact you.
So I think parents havesomething to take away,

(01:11:24):
something really profound that'shard work and might require
some practice and some homeworkon the part of parents, but that
the payoff is huge For everyonebecause we all get something
For everyone.

If we can be present, they can be present.
Then we can all sort of getsomething more out of that
experience.

So I really want to thank both of you for taking
time I know summer is a busytime in the advising office and
for sharing your personalstories and sharing your
perspectives.
And for sharing your personalstories and sharing your
perspectives, we'll do some shownotes and tell us just as we

(01:12:03):
finish up.
Tell us if people would like tocontact you, how can they
contact you, and just veryquickly, I don't know, zachary,
you mentioned Nakata.
You want to tell us anythingquickly about information or
contact that I can put in theshow notes?
Yeah, I mean, I think.

Zachary, we're going to send.
We're going to send.
I know we both have LinkedIn,okay you can send me stuff, yeah
, so like email or phone.
I'm usually like around theoffice, especially in the
summertime, but I mean, Idefinitely don't.
I love talking about this stuff.

And.

I'll talk about it.
Obviously, we've been talkingfor a while.
So if you ever want to talkmore about what that looks like,
or even just our experienceswith students, to see if they
kind of parallel some of thestudents or some of like your
students that are going intoschool now, the kids that are
going into school now Like you,you know we have a lot, we
thousands of students.
We've already advised them.
So, um, we have a lot ofstories about, like those

(01:13:00):
instances with students.
So we're always okay.

So we will put all of that contact and information
about nakata um in the shownotes thank you so much to thank
you, zachary deja deja don, Ihave to show off my French again
, and John.

Martinez, both from the Advising and Academic
Support Center at the StateUniversity of New York at Albany
.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.

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#118 – Impermanence, Mindfulness, and Focusing on the Strengths of First Generation Students

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#118 – Impermanence, Mindfulness, and Focusing on the Strengths of First Generation Students