September 18, 2024 • 51 mins
Most of us probably know that getting enough sleep makes us feel better, but there’s so much more to it than that – especially for our teens. In this episode, Vicki and Elizabeth talk with Lisa Lewis, author of the book The Sleep Deprived Teen: Why Our Teenagers Are So Tired, and How Parents and Schools Can Help Them Thrive about why our students aren’t getting enough sleep, the dramatic effect that can have on them, and how to help them get more sleep. If you sometimes feel as though your student is sleepwalking much of the time, you’ll discover you’re not alone – and you really help your teen make some changes.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Elizabeth Hamblet (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parents Central
Podcast.
I am your co-host, elizabethHamblett, and we are streaming
live on Facebook as well, sohopefully folks will get to
enjoy both watching andlistening to this later.
We are here with the author ofthe Sleep Deprived Teen, my
friend Lisa L Lewis.
(01:05):
I'm going to attempt to holdthis up.
I have my electronic versionand I have the real one Hard
copy.
I connected with Lisa throughsome writing groups and was so
grateful to have done so,because this book is amazing.
We are getting back to schoolat this time of year and, as
(01:25):
parents are thinking about howcan they help their students be
happy and healthy and successfulin the new year, we cannot
neglect the topic of sleep.
Nothing is more important toany of this than sleep.
A poorly rested teenager cannotbe an accomplished student or
an athlete or, you know, likemost of us, a person.
(01:48):
So with that, I'm going to askLisa to just introduce herself
to us and tell us a little bitabout how she got on this topic.
Lisa Lewis (01:59):
Absolutely.
Thank you both for having mehere.
It's such a joy and it's atopic that I really am
passionate about it, asElizabeth knows.
So I am the author of the SleepDeprived Teen and thank you
both for sharing your copies andthe story of how that came
(02:20):
about.
I'll just kind of give a quickrecap, because it really stems
from my dual roles as a parentand as a parenting journalist.
So I have for quite a long timewritten about various topics
related to parenting andeducation and public health, and
obviously this topic of teensleep, you know, really
(02:41):
encompasses all of those areas.
So for me, the impetus forfocusing on this particular
topic was actually when theoldest of my two kids, my son,
was entering high school, whichwas almost 10 years ago now.
So I've been absolutelyimmersed in this topic for close
to a decade.
So it was 2015.
(03:01):
He was just starting hisfreshman year of high school and
at that point our local publichigh school started at 7.30 in
the morning.
So that was much earlier thanany of the other start times he
had ever had.
As he moved through the system,you know, elementary, middle,
high and it was really quicklyobvious that it just was too
(03:22):
early all the way around.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for our family.
I mean, I was the one, you know, driving him to school.
We'd leave the house every dayat 7.10.
And he was sitting there in thecar but he was really quiet.
He wasn't quite like alert and,you know, awake and ready for
full day of learning.
So that's what initiallypropelled me into this topic was
looking at start times andtrying to figure out.
(03:43):
Well, propelled me into thistopic was looking at start times
and trying to figure out well,why did our district have this
sudden, you know, move back to730 when it came to high school
start times?
And were we unique in this?
And you know all that and whatI quickly found were a few
things.
The first was that, sadly, wewere not unique.
This was actually happeningacross the country.
And the second was that thiswas actually counter to what is
(04:07):
recommended.
So again, this was 2015.
The previous year, 2014, theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics
had just released a veryinfluential policy statement on
secondary school start times andthey were recommending that
middle and high schools start noearlier than 8.30 in the
morning.
So obviously, 7.30 was nowherein range, but this topic was
(04:32):
really starting to hit acritical mass because that
statement had just come out, theCDC had just released a report
looking at start times.
So this was sort of thebackdrop, you know, when I was,
you know, suddenly having it,like you know, fall on my
doorstep and, you know,realizing this was something
that's affecting me.
So I started writing about theissue because there's a body of
(04:54):
research that you know datesback to literally the mid 70s.
I started writing about thisissue, you know, in my role as a
journalist and in fact one ofone of the pieces I wrote was an
op ed that ran in the LosAngeles Times.
It was called why SchoolsShould Start Later in the Day
and that article, my op ed,literally ended up being read in
(05:16):
the newspaper by one of ourCalifornia state senators.
And it just so happened and hehis name is Anthony
Portantinoino and his districtis in Los Angeles.
Just so happened he also had ahigh schooler and their high
school was in the midst oftalking about this issue of
school start times.
So I had sort of tapped intothis issue at a time when it
(05:39):
really was kind of hitting acritical mass.
So, long story short, he readthat he decided he wanted to
look into the issue because hewas interested in introducing a
bill on this topic of Star Times.
He ended up doing that.
I got caught up in this wholetwo and a half year legislative
journey.
I ended up testifying at thestate capitol, sacramento, about
(06:00):
this and being involved in allthe communications, and it
culminated in Californiaactually passing the first state
law in the country settingminimum allowed start times for
middle and high schools.
So, yeah, sort of this bit of ayou know crazy backstory, but
that finally got signed into lawin 2019.
(06:22):
Three-year implementationwindow went into effect in 2022,
which also just so happened tobe when my book came out,
because I was immersed in thistopic, talking to all these
researchers and gathering allthis info, and so all of that
happened in the summer of 2022.
And, as I mentioned, so whatpropelled me into this was the
(06:42):
issue of school start times,which is still an issue in so
many areas, you know, within theUnited States even today, but
also it's so much broader thanthat, and so really, my focus
now is you know, that's anessential piece of it when you
look at it, but even so, overall, our teens are sleep deprived
and there are so manyramifications and there are so
(07:04):
many other pieces that play into.
So really I, you know, focusmore broadly now on that, this
overall topic of sleep andwellness, because it affects
literally every single thing wedo.
Elizabeth Hamblet (07:18):
Well, that's a really good lead into you know
, our first question that we hadfor you when your kids are
little, you are constantly ontop of their nap situation,
right, making sure they have aconsistent bedtime.
And then they get older andthey're in charge of it and you
know.
So sleep is really importantfor all of us, but why, very
(07:39):
specifically, is it importantfor teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Lisa Lewis (07:44):
Specifically, is it important for teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Yeah, so for teens, there are acouple of unique circumstances
that you know.
We do tend to think of sleep asbeing one of those things.
When our kids are little, it'slike, please, god, just let them
go to sleep and not, you know,get up in the middle of the
night and come wake me, and notwake at 6am, you know, and then
it totally, the situationtotally flips on its head when
our kids hit those teen years.
(08:06):
So, and there are severalcontributing factors to the
situation we have today, whichis that our teens are, by and
large, the most sleep deprivedof any age group.
So that is due to severaldifferent factors.
So the first is that when youthink about how much sleep you
(08:27):
need, we always hear eight hours, you know, as being kind of
this magic, perfect number.
So that is great for us asadults.
The official sleeprecommendations from the
National Sleep Foundation foradults over age 18 is seven to
nine hours.
So you know that's a prettybroad range, but the vast
majority of adults are going tofall somewhere within that.
So eight, great, that's themidpoint, that's perfect.
(08:48):
But teens need more sleep thanadults.
Up until age 18, they shouldactually be getting eight to 10
hours of sleep.
So I think the first thing isthat that's not always as widely
known, and particularly whenyou're looking at, you know, a
teen, a junior, a senior in highschool, they look like an adult
, but they're not.
(09:09):
They do need more sleep than wedo.
So when you talk about eighthours, that's the minimum that
they're supposed to be getting.
So that's the first piece of it.
The second is that they have ashift in their sleep timing.
So, as I was just referencing,you know, when your kid is four,
you know they're, or you know,even younger, they're bouncing
out of bed at 6am.
(09:30):
They don't do that once they'reteens.
You know there's all those sortof jokes about like needing to
go in and bang the pots and pansto get them out of bed at 11 in
the morning.
It's not just because suddenlythey became lazy, it's because
there is this fundamental shiftthat happens in the timing of
their sleep schedule.
So what happens?
It's called your circadianrhythm, which has to do with,
(09:52):
essentially, the when you areawake and when you're asleep,
and it is tied to light and dark, so we are alert and awake
during the day.
We sleep at night when it'sdark, and we have sort of an
internal schedule for that.
It is heavily influenced bylight.
But what happens for teens isthat whole schedule shifts later
as they enter adolescence.
(10:15):
And this is again.
This is a physiological thing.
So the hormone melatonin issomething that our brain
actually produces and it is whatprimes us to feel sleepy.
So melatonin is released andthen that sort of leads us to
start feeling sleepy, and thenwe get to that point we're
sleepy, we go to bed.
Well, melatonin begins to bereleased later in the evening
(10:38):
for our teenagers, and so all ofa sudden they're not feeling
sleepy as early as they used to.
So they're not feeling sleepyuntil roughly 11 o'clock at
night and then they need eightto 10 hours of sleep.
So you just kind of do the mathand then you look at the start
times and you can see if you'vegot to be up at, say, 630.
Or even earlier.
That makes it virtuallyimpossible to get eight to 10
(11:01):
hours of sleep.
So those are sort of the bigpieces affecting teen sleep.
And then there's so much elseand I know we'll get into some
of this because that's sort ofthe backdrop.
But then there's all the otherthings going on in school.
There's their homework load,there's their activities.
You know this whole issue ofoverscheduling, like that's real
(11:22):
, and all that ends up taking upmore and more and more of their
wake time, cutting into thatlittle piece that's allotted for
sleep.
Wow.
Vicki Nelson (11:32):
You know, I think you've just answered.
You know what's often been inmy mind, and I know other people
who say well, why don't theteenagers just go to bed earlier
?
Shouldn't we just enforce anearlier bedtime?
And if they've got to be atschool at 7.30 and we know they
need sleep, we say 9 o'clock,lights out, that's it, you're
(11:55):
done.
So now that makes more sense.
And you just mentioned a lot ofother factors.
So I'm curious.
I want to follow up on onethat's sort of my thorn in my
side a lot of the time, andthat's technology.
So how does now technology andall of the things that teens are
(12:17):
involved in, how does thatfactor into all of this?
Lisa Lewis (12:23):
Yes, yeah, great question, and it does.
The short answer is yes, itdoes factor in.
This relates back to what I wasjust talking about the light
and dark and the release ofmelatonin.
So tech is here to stay.
Obviously, it's not like we canjust we can delay when our kids
get phones, but they're onlineto do their school assignments
(12:43):
too.
I mean, being online is such anintegral part of their social
world.
The same way, you know, when Iwas in high school, I was on the
telephone for hours.
Well, now that's been replaced,you know.
So tech is here to stay.
It has a valid role, but itdoes absolutely have the ability
to impact their sleep.
So there are a few differentways that that happens.
The first is simply timedisplacement.
(13:06):
So if you are online until lateat night, at some point you are
literally cutting into hourswhen you could have been
sleeping instead.
So that's the first piece.
The second piece is that sooften, what our teens and we as
adults are doing online isstimulating and engaging.
So you know, for us, maybewe're watching, you know, a
(13:27):
movie or something, maybe we'rechecking our work email, so our
brain is still in work mode.
You know, for our kids, theycould be playing a video game
that's fast paced and energetic,they could be involved in some
kind of an emotional you knowchat with their friends about
you know the latest relationshipissue that's come up, or
whatever.
So all that is keeping youawake and alert.
(13:49):
And then the last piece of it isthe blue light aspect.
So this gets back to the lightpiece I was talking about
earlier.
Blue light is part of theoverall spectrum of light and,
in fact, the biggest source ofblue light for us is the sun,
and when we're out in the dayand we get blue source of blue
light for us is the sun, andwhen we're out in the day and we
get blue light that helps cueus to feel alert.
Well, these devices that we'reusing, these backlit devices,
(14:13):
they actually emit blue light.
It's just part of the way thatyou know they've been
constructed with the LEDs andthat blue light actually primes
us to feel alert.
So you are like giving yourselfthese extra doses of blue light
in the evening when you're onyour devices, and that can, in
turn, delay the release ofmelatonin, meaning you're not
(14:33):
going to feel sleepy until later.
So there's all three of theseways that tech can potentially
impact sleep.
Vicki Nelson (14:42):
So I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit.
I know one of the things we'rehoping to talk about, perhaps a
little later, is somesuggestions for parents and what
they can do.
But is it realistic to expectteens to put their devices aside
earlier?
In other words, you're notreally sleepy until later, but
(15:05):
let's not add this factor and,by a little bit earlier, put the
device away.
Lisa Lewis (15:11):
Yes, and in fact that is a best practice.
The American Academy ofPediatrics does recommend
getting off the tech devices anhour before bedtime.
So, again, that is the bestpractice.
So that is something maybe towork toward, Because, again,
just as with theserecommendations, we know what
the official recommendation isand then we know what reality is
, and so I feel like you know,you may not ever get to perfect,
(15:35):
but you can at least take stepsto get closer hour before
bedtime.
That would be ideal.
Even if you can't do that,though, work towards better than
what you have now.
Maybe it's a half hour beforebedtime, but getting off of
those devices rather thanstaying online, you know, go, go
, go, go, go and just turn itoff and expect that you can just
(15:57):
turn your brain off the sameway and just fall asleep.
Flip a switch, yeah, exactlyyeah, our brain does not have an
off switch, the way that, youknow, our devices do.
So that's the best practice isto get off devices an hour
before bedtime Along those lines, ideally not keeping them in
the bedrooms overnight.
So, you know, have a centralcharging station.
(16:19):
The other thing that we can doas parents is help model these
behaviors.
Other thing that we can do asparents is help model these
behaviors, because these arebest practices that apply for
all users of tech.
So you know if we've set ahouse rule yeah, no devices in
the bedrooms overnight.
We're just going to use analarm clock rather than the
alarm function on your phone Imean, those still exist out
there then our devices need tobe charging in the kitchen as
(16:41):
well, and we need to not besitting there on our laptops in
bed.
So it is also like having thisbe a family.
You know, set of tech rulesideally not just for teens, and
certainly if you haven't hadthese kind of rules in place,
showing that you are now goingto be part of it and kind of
working towards it and gettingyour teens buy-in is also a
(17:04):
pretty essential piece.
Elizabeth Hamblet (17:07):
Yeah, because they can smell hypocrisy miles
away, can't they?
Lisa Lewis (17:11):
Yes.
Elizabeth Hamblet (17:12):
Yeah, absolutely Do as I say, not as I
do.
Their BS detectors are quitegood.
So obviously just having acrabby teenager in your house is
just not fun in general andit's not good for your mental
health.
But let's talk more deeplyabout you know, just aside from
being tired, you know what isthe link between sleep and
(17:34):
mental health, sleep and riskybehaviors and something I think
a lot of parents are worriedabout sleep and grades.
Lisa Lewis (17:42):
Yeah, absolutely Well, sleep affects literally
everything we do.
I always tell people there'snot one single thing that you do
better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So so there.
So let me just kind of give aquick overview, because there's
so much to say about all ofthose topics.
But first looking at learning,because obviously that's like
(18:02):
the whole point of why our kidsare in school all day, right?
So when you are sleep deprived,it actually affects your
ability to learn and retaininformation.
So, and there are threedifferent steps in the process
where it particularly has aneffect.
The first is when you areacquiring that new information.
So you're sitting in class, andif you're not really awake and
(18:26):
alert, you know it's not reallypenetrating to the same degree.
That's the same, by the way.
You know, if you're at home andyou're reading like we've all
had that experience you'retrying to read something, you're
tired, and you realize you'vejust read the same page like
four times and nothing has sunkin right.
So that's the first step.
The second, though, right.
So that's the first step.
The second, though, isretaining that information,
because sleep is when our brainsare processing and synthesizing
(18:51):
all of that information we'vetaken in that day and moving it
from short-term into long-termstorage in terms of memory.
So all that is such a criticalpiece of learning is what
happens with that informationand how you retain it.
That's what's happeningovernight when we're sleeping.
And then the third piece iswhen you're trying to retrieve
(19:11):
that information, because ifyou're sleep deprived, just your
cognitive functioning is slowerand being able to retrieve that
information is much slower andmuch more difficult.
So that's the first piece.
So absolutely there's an impacton learning.
The other big piece, though Imean there's so many, but
another very large piece is themental health piece and again,
(19:36):
so many different ways thatbeing sleep deprived affects
this.
But to start, it's basicallyyour emotional resiliency is
restored when you've had a goodnight's sleep.
You have an emotional buffer,you are ready to greet the day.
It's a key part of there's aterm flourishing, which really
(19:59):
has to do with thriving, andthat has to do with not just
things like having a sense ofpurpose, but feeling engaged in
your daily activities and inyour interactions with others
and just having a positiveoutlook.
And so getting a good night'ssleep is a key piece of that,
because you wake when you've hada good night's sleep and you
feel good when you open youreyes, you know, as opposed to
(20:21):
when you wake and you haven'thad a good night's sleep like
you know it the second you openyour eyes and it just makes
everything that much moredifficult.
You know, throughout the day, ifyou have mental health issues,
like depression, like anxiety,et cetera, being sleep deprived
exacerbates them.
So you know again, if you areprone to that let's say there's
(20:43):
a genetic component of familyhistory you go in, maybe to a
medical professional.
That's one of the very firstquestions they're going to ask
is how is your sleep?
Are you getting enough sleep?
Because if you're not, that'sthe first piece they're going to
want to address.
That's like the low hangingfruit.
You know it can be verystraightforward If you're
regularly getting five hours ofsleep, well, they're going to
(21:04):
work with you on trying toincrease that, to get to, you
know, being within the rangebefore they're going to start
looking, you know, generallyspeaking, at other possible
causes, because sleep absolutelyis part of that.
And then you'd asked about riskybehaviors.
So, again, sleep affects, andthis is particularly acute with
(21:24):
teenagers.
When you haven't gotten enoughsleep, you are more prone to
risky behaviors, impulsivedecision-making, particularly as
a teen because your prefrontalcortex is not going to be
operating as efficiently and italready is not operating as
efficiently in our teens,because their brain is in the
(21:45):
midst of this multi-year processof brain remodeling and the
part that revs up first is thelimbic system, which is
responsible for sensationseeking and it, you know, all
that kind of stuff, whereas theprefrontal cortex, which is kind
of the breaking part of youknow the system, does not go
through that remodeling untillater on, and so they don't even
(22:07):
have a strong of a prefrontalcortex functioning to begin with
, and then, when you're sleepdeprived, it exacerbates that.
Vicki Nelson (22:15):
So it's just so overwhelming the amount of well,
I'm processing and as I readthe book, I mean I've already
sort of processed this a littlebit the amount of things that
are affected by sleep that sooften we don't realize.
(22:36):
And one of the areas as I readthe book that struck me the most
and maybe because I have agrandson who's an athlete and
does I mean, he's still youngbut he's several sports and he's
quite good at it was some ofthe things that you talked about
, some of the statistics eventhat you shared, about how
(23:02):
dramatically getting enoughsleep can improve athletic
performance, and it seems asthough for a lot of teenagers
who are very active athletes,this is one of the strongest
arguments for getting sleep.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsleep and athletics?
Yes, yes.
Lisa Lewis (23:21):
And absolutely it is to your point.
You know, possibly, the way inwhen you're trying to kind of
have these conversations withyour kid, because if they're an
athlete, maybe this is the piecethat's really going to resonate
, the message being that sleepis a competitive advantage.
So there is a study actuallythat really was sort of the
(23:42):
seminal study, for this was doneback in 2011 at Stanford.
A researcher there worked withthe Stanford men's basketball
team who they were not gettingenough sleep.
They were averaging less thanseven hours of sleep.
So she had them go through thisprocess of being in bed for at
least 10 hours a night as a wayto hopefully extend their actual
(24:03):
sleep time, because you can'tput someone to bed and say, okay
, sleep.
I mean, obviously it doesn'twork that way, but getting them
to, you know, prioritize it byspending more time in bed.
And, lo and behold, it worked.
They were getting less thanseven hours.
After this, they were gettingabout eight and a half hours of
sleep.
But what was so impressive waswhat that meant in terms of
their performance.
So all of a sudden, they wereposting a 9% increase in free
(24:28):
throws, a 9% increase inthree-point shots and they had
faster sprint times.
So it's like all of a sudden,this wasn't because they were
changing their training, it wasjust because they were faster
sprint times.
So it's like all of a sudden,like this wasn't because they
were changing their training, itwas just because they were
getting more sleep.
So and so this is now a messagethat is pretty, pretty widely
understood.
(24:48):
And and when you look at proteams, college teams, they often
have sleep consultants.
They work with you know,olympic athletes.
Many of them have come out verypublicly to talk about how
important sleep is to theirperformance.
So, absolutely so, when you getenough sleep, it improves your
performance.
On the flip side, when youdon't get enough sleep, it
increases your risk for injuries, because it affects things like
(25:12):
coordination and response time.
And then if you are injured, ifyou're not getting enough sleep
, it is likely going to lengthenyour recovery time.
Vicki Nelson (25:26):
There you have it.
Announcer (25:27):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (25:27):
I mean there are a lot of teenagers who are not
athletes, so there perhaps needto be some other arguments, but
for so many that's just it'sdramatic.
Lisa Lewis (25:39):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And sleep also is primarilywhen growth hormone is released.
So that's another argument thatoften, you know, really cause
people, you know teens, to situp and take notice.
Elizabeth Hamblet (25:50):
So you know along those lines.
Obviously you talked about, youknow, setting some household
rules and modeling.
But you know, are there anysomewhat persuasive arguments
that you think parents should beusing while their kids are in
high school?
You know, to begin with, youknow about this Because students
feel the need, you know, intheir teenage years to be in
(26:11):
control of things.
Right, and I think in somecommunities there is that you
know grind culture, you knowwhere it's.
It's a point of pride to saywell, you know these kids in AP
classes who are getting loadsand loads of work and I'm coming
in on five hours and so how topersuade them?
(26:34):
You know they can still lieabout it at school if they want
right.
Lisa Lewis (26:44):
Yeah, no, it's tricky because it is
multifactorial, as you mentioned, and particularly when you are
in a high-achieving environment.
There are these other factorsthat are contributing the
homework load, theoverscheduling of activities and
the perceived need to do all ofthis in order to get into the
right school, because it's goingto determine your future and
all that.
And it's tricky because itneeds to be addressed at so many
(27:09):
different levels.
There's the kids themselves, asyou mentioned.
It's sort of a point of pride.
It's sort of this kind ofhumble bragging well, I only got
six hours of sleep.
Oh, well, I only got five hoursof sleep.
So they've got that.
Sometimes it's coming from thefamily, you know, this need to
sort of perceived need tosucceed academically in order to
get into the right school.
Sometimes it's, you know, bakedinto the school itself, which
(27:32):
may have responded to, you know,the sort of push from parents
because they, you know, want tobe high achieving school.
So it is coming from all thesedifferent places.
But at the same time there's apoint of diminishing returns and
I think that's what's soimportant to keep in mind.
One of the ways to sort of takea look at, you know, whether you
(27:55):
are indeed overscheduled is toliterally map out how many
waking hours you have, you knowduring a typical day, and how
those are currently beingallocated.
So you've got a set number ofhours that you're in school, but
then you have your hours forhomework for each class and it
may vary because the advancedlevel classes are often going to
have more homework.
Then there's all theextracurriculars and maybe it's
(28:17):
stuff they're doing in schoollike band and speech and debate,
or what have student governmentcould also be club sports
they're doing outside of school.
Maybe they also have a job.
They also need time to be ableto sit down and eat meals and
catch their breath and showerand things like that.
So you need to like factor inall that.
And if you do all that and thenyou see that there's not even
(28:39):
an eight to 10 hour window leftin the schedule, then it's
making it pretty hard for themto get, you know, enough sleep
and it's also maybe a sign thatit's time to reevaluate.
And what that means is going todiffer.
Obviously you know in each case,but when you think about it
we've already set the limitsomewhere.
(29:00):
Like people will brag aboutgetting five hours, they're not
going to brag about getting twohours of sleep right.
Like at some point you knowthere's a limit.
And it's the same with APclasses.
Even somebody who's overloadedtheir schedule with them, at
some point there's a limit.
They're not taking, excuse me,literally every single AP class
that the school offers, likethere is some limit they have
set in their mind.
Same with sports.
(29:21):
Even if you're a multi-sportathlete, you are not literally
participating in every singlesport that the school offers.
You have set that limitsomewhere, and it's, I guess.
Maybe my advice would be tolook at where you've set that
limit and perhaps recalibrate abit to look at where you've set
that limit and perhapsrecalibrate a bit.
Vicki Nelson (29:39):
Yeah, I know sometimes with my students who's
college level, who say theydon't have enough time.
When we sit down and take 168hours of the week and do exactly
what you're talking about, howmany do you do?
It's eyeopening for them torealize often at that stage, to
(30:01):
realize that they have more freetime than they thought they did
, that it fritters awaysomewhere.
But just that mathematicalapproach of saying this many
hours in a week or this manyhours in a day and then actually
looking at it, it does stareyou right in the face.
It's good, absolutely yeah, goahead.
Lisa Lewis (30:25):
Oh, I was just going to say it sounds like the big
piece that you're mentioning isthe time management piece, which
is huge and is something thatas kids leave home, they are
suddenly much more responsiblefor that and so often that can
use fine tuning.
But that's also something whenour kids are still at home and
they are in middle school andhigh school we are helping,
particularly in the youngerteens.
(30:46):
Helping them learn those skills, helping them figure out you
don't wait until the nightbefore something's due to
suddenly start on it.
So developing those skills issomething ideally they're doing
all the way through thosesecondary school years.
I still need to be startingearlier too, but the point is
like we are more involved whenthey're at home.
But hopefully we're helpingthem develop those skills
(31:08):
because that's going to helpeliminate those late nights in
high school Like, oh God, Ididn't start and it's due, but
also ideally equip them sothey're able to take that with
them when they do go off tocollege.
Vicki Nelson (31:19):
It strikes me that maybe college applications you
know as students are writingtheir admissions essays and all
they should include how manyhours of sleep do you get?
And maybe it boosts youradmission a little bit if you
say I get eight hours sleep,because then you know you're
going to have a student who'sgoing to be their sharpest.
(31:41):
Probably the admissionsofficers would not listen to my
argument, but it struck me, asyou were talking no-transcript,
(32:46):
that idea of sort of bankingyour sleep time on the weekend.
How helpful is that and howeffective is that to say, well,
yeah, I can only sleep on theweekend.
Lisa Lewis (33:04):
Yeah, so it does.
I'm.
I'm positive because there's acouple.
There's sort of two differentpieces over here.
One is banking, which isgetting enough sleep ahead of
time, okay, that it's in thebank before you're sleep
deprived, and that actually hasbeen shown to be a good strategy
.
So if you know you're going tohave some nights like that
(33:26):
coming up, being reallyintentional about starting off,
you know, in as good a positionas you can, so that's sort of
that concept of sleep banking.
The type of long weekend sleepthat you're referring to, though
, often is catch up sleep.
It's happening after the fact,and so that's a little bit
(33:46):
different, because you can neverreally truly catch up, so
you're always a little bitbehind.
So let's say that you havebuilt up this sleep deficit over
the course of the week, so youhave this accumulation of sleep
debt, because every night, let'ssay during the week, you're not
getting enough sleep, you endup with a sleep debt of 10 hours
(34:06):
.
Well, then you still need to begetting.
Let's just say, even if the kidis over 18 in college, let's
say they're supposed to begetting eight hours.
Well, they need to then add onan additional five hours on each
of those nights in order toreally make it up, and so that
actually probably is nothappening, even if they're
sleeping in until 11 or noon.
The other piece, though, is thatthen particularly if they not
(34:31):
so much probably for college,but certainly for adults going
to work, for high schoolersgoing to school you generally
have, you know, an earlier starttime, I would say, than college
students.
That's probably like one ofthose best silver linings of
colleges you don't have to takeclasses at 7.30 in the morning,
but it makes it that much harderto fall asleep at sort of a
reasonable hour on Sunday nightbecause you've got to get up.
(34:51):
Whatever time, you have to getup on Monday, and so you may not
be setting yourself up for goodsleep habits for the following
week either.
Vicki Nelson (34:59):
Yeah, and the other factor and I don't know
whether it does affect it or notmy college students have very
irregular schedules.
So they may have an 8.30 classon Monday and Wednesday, but no
classes until 11 on Tuesday andThursday.
(35:20):
So they get up early and thenthe next day they sleep late.
How does that factor in?
Lisa Lewis (35:27):
Yeah, no, you're right, and that is often the
reality, especially during thecollege years.
So ideally you want to befairly consistent about your
sleep schedule, which no onewants to hear, right?
Because if you've got to wakeat 630 on, you know as an adult,
like for work, and then youknow on the weekends you do not
want your alarm going off thatearly.
(35:47):
I mean, it's human nature andso the same, obviously, for
college students.
Those days when they don't haveto be up, what they consider
early for class, they'reprobably not going to want to
wake as early.
Um, however, if you can be moreconsistent, it's going to help
avoid these kind of issues wewere just talking about.
So, I mean, some variation isokay, but the the more wildly
your sleep schedule is swinging,the more you are apt to have
(36:09):
this concept of what they callsocial jet lag, because it is
like jet lag, I mean trying tolike get yourself on.
You know the schedule.
So so yeah, that that canactually be an issue.
And, frankly, in addition togetting enough sleep, the
official recommendations of allthe sleep groups that are out
(36:30):
there are that consistency ofsleep is also so important, and
this is not going to resonate somuch probably with college
students, but for us as adultsit affects.
It literally affects yourlongevity, I mean affects your
lifespan.
It affects things likecardiovascular risk.
I mean there's so many longterm effects of getting
inconsistent sleep on a chronicbasis.
Vicki Nelson (36:55):
So I have another question based on my observation
of my college students and evenmy memory of being in college
although that was a few yearsago, but some things don't
change and that is as much aswhen they were toddlers, we
could never get them to take anap.
My college students love naps,and so they can't wait until
(37:19):
they can go back to their roomand take a nap.
Is that a good thing?
Are they catching up a littlebit on some sleep, or is that
going to put them off cycle forgetting to sleep on time?
Lisa Lewis (37:36):
Yeah, no, naps are.
Naps can be great.
There's just sort of a coupleof kind of caveats you want to
keep in mind If you're going totake a nap.
Generally speaking, you don'twant to nap too late in the day,
because that is going topotentially make it harder, you
know, to fall asleep at kind ofthe right time at night.
(37:58):
Similarly, you don't want tonap too long, so generally,
about 45 minutes or so would bethe recommendation, and you know
taking a nap when you'refeeling like you need one is
fine, again, as long as you'resort of, you know, trying to
adhere to those guidelines.
The thing to keep in mind,though, is that a nap is
basically a compensatorystrategy.
(38:19):
Often, it's because you're notgetting enough sleep at night.
So, ideally, you don't want tofall into this habit of
regularly needing a nap.
You know getting less sleep atnight and needing a nap to be
able to make that up, becausethat, really, then, is a sign
that that's.
You know, if you were to begetting more sleep at night, it
might not be that same essentialnecessity to have a nap just to
(38:42):
be able to get through the day.
Vicki Nelson (38:46):
Naps are great.
They get us get a bunch of usthrough a lot of things.
Lisa Lewis (38:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there is one other caveatwhich you know I'm sure we've
all experienced that if you naptoo long, you also fall into a
deeper sleep, and then you'regroggy, so you don't wake up
feeling refreshed.
So we have to learn how to napappropriately and then, and then
they're probably okay little,yeah, set a timer, you know,
(39:14):
don't go longer than 45 minutesand ideally if it's already
evening, like probably taking anap is not a great idea, yeah
just go to bed earlier well,yeah, yeah, I mean my students
described to me, you know,getting fatigued because
something's due the next day andthen trying to take a nap at
one o'clock in the morning andsleeping through whatever alarm
(39:34):
they've set.
So it's yeah, yeah, yeah,because they needed more than a
nap at that point.
They needed an actual longsleep, yeah that's a classic
story.
Vicki Nelson (39:45):
Yeah, slept through my alarm, um.
So you've talked a lot aboutthings that we can do at home,
you know, in terms of modeling,especially with technology and
devices and all of that.
Are there any other suggestionsfor parents of things or, I
(40:08):
guess, maybe, how to start thisconversation with their students
, because it does sound asthough you know, in order to put
some of the strategies you'vetalked about into place.
You've got to be explicit, buthow do you get the conversation
about sleep started?
Lisa Lewis (40:28):
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
I think it depends.
It depends on the scenario.
But oftentimes, you know, I'vehad people ask me well, how do
you convince kids that they'retired?
It's like, well, you know, ifyou're tired, I mean they're
aware of it.
You know they may be trying topower through it, but it's not
like you don't notice.
(40:48):
You know when you wake up tiredand you're draggy and all that,
but it's not like you don'tnotice, you know when you wake
up tired and you're draggy andall that.
So so I don't think it's somuch that, as much as it is
probably trying to ask questions, you know, as opposed to coming
(41:09):
and saying hey, let's say, youknow, as a scenario you've got
and I'm assuming you're talkingabout a kid who's still at home
for you know, purpose of this,this conversation.
So let's say you've got a kidwho you know, knows that they
really need to be in bed by 1030, because of what time they have
to get up, but they'reregularly not doing that.
(41:30):
Asking them, you know, if it'snot already overly obvious, like
, well, what's getting in theway of you know you being able
to get to sleep on time?
And I say overly obviousbecause, let's say, they're not
getting home from sportspractice till 10 o'clock, like
well it's pretty obvious that'sgoing to be a major contributing
factor.
But there may be other thingsgoing on.
So you know asking questions,you know being curious, you know
(41:53):
which obviously that's sort ofjust generally as parenting
advice tends to work better thancoming in and you know telling
them some great solutionsbecause they don't really think
of those as being helpful.
So asking those kind ofquestions, like essentially
trying to help with them, figureout what is it that's kind of
the pain point here that'smaking it so hard.
(42:14):
You know cause I know you knowyou want you're trying to get to
bed at 11 and it just seemslike there's or 1030, and
there's always these things thatare coming up.
You know what are some of thethings you know we can do to
help so that it's probablycoming in with more of that
helpful attitude and trying toseek to be their partner in it
as opposed to adversarial.
Like I told you, you weresupposed to be in bed and it's
(42:36):
like why isn't it happening andwhat can we do to kind of
address those contributingcauses?
So that's sort of the broadadvice, because the reasons why
it can vary.
It can be the sports, it can bethe homework load, maybe they
are taking too heavy of ahomework load.
It can be time managementskills, as you alluded to before
(42:58):
.
You know in terms of planningand when you're getting started
on assignments, it can be toomany things that they're
scheduled to do.
You know late night practices,you know all that stuff.
So it's trying to figure outwhat is actually most relevant
in your kid's particularsituation and then from there
you can figure out what are someways to help address those.
Vicki Nelson (43:14):
Yeah, I think one of the really positive things
that I take out of thisconversation, and a lot of what
you've shared, is that therereally are ways to strategize
and to be proactive.
We know we're tired, and Ithink that's probably true of a
(43:36):
lot of parents as well.
It's not just teenagers, it'snot just kids.
We know we're tired, we knowour kids are tired they dragged
school, whatever but we don'tthink we can do anything about
it.
And so you know, I really likehaving some of those ideas and
strategies, ways to talk aboutit and things to do.
(43:59):
I guess, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say Iguess you know we could keep
going, but one of the otherpieces in terms of doing
something about it, I wonder,just before we finish up, if you
could talk a little bit aboutthis movement that it seems to
(44:19):
be happening to try to makeschools start later, as you were
able to proactively help thatto happen.
But if parents are in acommunity and the school starts
at 7.15 or 7.30, what are someways that they can start to
(44:41):
maybe begin to advocate and getthat conversation started
locally in their own communities?
Lisa Lewis (44:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it starts with having acommon foundation of knowledge,
so that you know all the kindof things we're talking about
here, how much sleep kids reallyneed to be getting, the fact
that they do have this circadianrhythm shift, so it's not just
that they're being lazy, youknow, etc.
So sharing this kind ofinformation is quite literally
(45:13):
the best place to start.
You know, I am absolutely aproponent of addressing start
times at the state level,because you know you can have
the broadest impact.
That's not to say that that'sthe only way this can happen.
However, it has happened and itcontinues to happen in
districts around the country assmall as a single high school or
(45:35):
as large as an entire city.
I mean, up until California'slaw, it had never been done at
the statewide level before interms of setting the minimum
allowed start times.
Meanwhile, it has happened on agrassroots level in so many
communities and I say so manybecause I can't quantify it
because there's no centraldatabase of districts that have
changed their start times, but Imean it's hundreds at least and
(46:01):
so that does continue to be avery effective way to do it.
So, in terms of sharinginformation, that can start with
a school-wide meeting that canstart with a school-wide meeting
.
That can start with partneringwith the pta.
In fact, the california statepta was one of the co-sponsors
of the bill in california, theother co-sponsor being start
(46:22):
school later, which is anon-profit that advocates for
this.
You can also look at starting alocal chapter of start school,
because that is a terrifictreasure trove of resources from
other people who have done thisin their communities.
But, you know, partnering withthe PTA, hold a meeting.
Bring in a local pediatricianor sleep specialist to talk
(46:44):
about sleep.
Bring in somebody who you know.
I go in and speak regularly toschools.
I speak to parents about all ofthis.
You know, oftentimes when I'mgoing in, they may be more
broadly interested because, as Imentioned at the beginning of
our conversation, school starttimes are such an essential
(47:04):
piece of the equation but thatis, you know, not at all the
entire picture.
And so many times there areschools where they may not have
super, super early start timesand yet there are still issues
of sleep deprivation because ofeverything else we've been
talking about the overscheduling, the academic expectations, et
cetera, et cetera.
So, as I was saying, so I thinkit starts with trying to hold
(47:29):
those sort of conversations,getting together with other
like-minded parents, havingconversations with the school
administrators.
Often you will find that youknow if they are aware of the
research, they understand thatit does have a direct impact on
grades, on attendance rates, onmental health, on all these
other aspects.
So, starting to have thatconversation, figuring out who
(47:50):
your allies are locally andbuilding from there, there's
hope.
Elizabeth Hamblet (47:58):
Well, and obviously to get that
information, everybody shouldread Lisa's book.
Vicki Nelson (48:02):
Well, that's the best place to start.
Elizabeth Hamblet (48:04):
And then you make it a community read.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa Lewis (48:09):
Well, and to your point, I mean, I actually, when
I was writing the book, Iliterally wrote the book that I
wished that I had had when I wasjust in working on this journey
.
So, you know, starting off withthat foundational information,
giving you know that overview ofall the various ramifications,
from learning to mental health,to drowsy driving, to sports,
(48:29):
and then, like a third of thebook is all about specific
strategies.
So there are some specific tostart times, but there's also,
you know, you know, I'm sure,having read the book as well as
you both have, you know, a wholechapter on technology and on,
you know, specific kinds ofthings you can do during the day
to help prepare you for a goodnight's sleep.
(48:50):
You know nighttime strategies,wind down routines, so, yeah, so
I do get into all of that andand as you can see, it's a topic
I'm passionate about and, justyou know, could go on and on.
Vicki Nelson (49:00):
So again, just to remind people the book is the
Sleep Deprived Teen, why OurTeenagers Are so Tired and how
Parents and Schools Can Helpthem Thrive.
By Lisa L Lewis.
Lisa, if people would like tofollow up, if they would like to
learn more about the book,learn more about you, reach out,
(49:22):
what are?
Are there ways that they can dothat?
Lisa Lewis (49:26):
Yeah, absolutely Best way would be through my
website.
My email address is on thereand it's wwwlisallewiscom.
Vicki Nelson (49:37):
Okay, so they go there and they can find out more
about the book and more abouteverything and reach out to you
if they need to.
Lisa Lewis (49:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm always happy to chatwith people about sleep.
Vicki Nelson (49:51):
Well, we are both.
Elizabeth is nodding her headand I'm speaking for both of us
to say we're both reallygrateful that you took time to
spend with us and have thisconversation.
It is such an important topicfor teenagers and college
students and probably theirtired parents as well, so it's
(50:14):
good for all of us.
So thank you so much and wewill put some of this
information in the show notes ofthe podcast.
And if you get back and forth,if you are listening to the
podcast, that's wonderful.
But if you know other peoplewho do not listen to the podcast
(50:35):
but maybe do YouTube, Elizabeth, where do they look on YouTube
there?
Elizabeth Hamblet (50:40):
we go Sorry, yeah, it'll be on YouTube.
Vicki Nelson (50:44):
And how do they find it on YouTube?
Elizabeth Hamblet (50:46):
They just find my website, my page.
There is the LD Advisorywebpage and you'll find it there
.
Vicki Nelson (50:53):
And we put those in the show notes too.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for being here, our
viewers for watching us and LisaLewis for sharing your
information with us.
Lisa Lewis (51:09):
Absolutely.
Thank you both so much.
Really love talking to youabout this.
Vicki Nelson (51:13):
Okay, thanks.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Elizabeth Hamblet (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parents Central
Podcast.
I am your co-host, elizabethHamblett, and we are streaming
live on Facebook as well, sohopefully folks will get to
enjoy both watching andlistening to this later.
We are here with the author ofthe Sleep Deprived Teen, my
friend Lisa L Lewis.
(01:05):
I'm going to attempt to holdthis up.
I have my electronic versionand I have the real one Hard
copy.
I connected with Lisa throughsome writing groups and was so
grateful to have done so,because this book is amazing.
We are getting back to schoolat this time of year and, as
(01:25):
parents are thinking about howcan they help their students be
happy and healthy and successfulin the new year, we cannot
neglect the topic of sleep.
Nothing is more important toany of this than sleep.
A poorly rested teenager cannotbe an accomplished student or
an athlete or, you know, likemost of us, a person.
(01:48):
So with that, I'm going to askLisa to just introduce herself
to us and tell us a little bitabout how she got on this topic.
Lisa Lewis (01:59):
Absolutely.
Thank you both for having mehere.
It's such a joy and it's atopic that I really am
passionate about it, asElizabeth knows.
So I am the author of the SleepDeprived Teen and thank you
both for sharing your copies andthe story of how that came
(02:20):
about.
I'll just kind of give a quickrecap, because it really stems
from my dual roles as a parentand as a parenting journalist.
So I have for quite a long timewritten about various topics
related to parenting andeducation and public health, and
obviously this topic of teensleep, you know, really
(02:41):
encompasses all of those areas.
So for me, the impetus forfocusing on this particular
topic was actually when theoldest of my two kids, my son,
was entering high school, whichwas almost 10 years ago now.
So I've been absolutelyimmersed in this topic for close
to a decade.
So it was 2015.
(03:01):
He was just starting hisfreshman year of high school and
at that point our local publichigh school started at 7.30 in
the morning.
So that was much earlier thanany of the other start times he
had ever had.
As he moved through the system,you know, elementary, middle,
high and it was really quicklyobvious that it just was too
(03:22):
early all the way around.
It was too early for him.
It was too early for our family.
I mean, I was the one, you know, driving him to school.
We'd leave the house every dayat 7.10.
And he was sitting there in thecar but he was really quiet.
He wasn't quite like alert and,you know, awake and ready for
full day of learning.
So that's what initiallypropelled me into this topic was
looking at start times andtrying to figure out.
(03:43):
Well, propelled me into thistopic was looking at start times
and trying to figure out well,why did our district have this
sudden, you know, move back to730 when it came to high school
start times?
And were we unique in this?
And you know all that and whatI quickly found were a few
things.
The first was that, sadly, wewere not unique.
This was actually happeningacross the country.
And the second was that thiswas actually counter to what is
(04:07):
recommended.
So again, this was 2015.
The previous year, 2014, theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics
had just released a veryinfluential policy statement on
secondary school start times andthey were recommending that
middle and high schools start noearlier than 8.30 in the
morning.
So obviously, 7.30 was nowherein range, but this topic was
(04:32):
really starting to hit acritical mass because that
statement had just come out, theCDC had just released a report
looking at start times.
So this was sort of thebackdrop, you know, when I was,
you know, suddenly having it,like you know, fall on my
doorstep and, you know,realizing this was something
that's affecting me.
So I started writing about theissue because there's a body of
(04:54):
research that you know datesback to literally the mid 70s.
I started writing about thisissue, you know, in my role as a
journalist and in fact one ofone of the pieces I wrote was an
op ed that ran in the LosAngeles Times.
It was called why SchoolsShould Start Later in the Day
and that article, my op ed,literally ended up being read in
(05:16):
the newspaper by one of ourCalifornia state senators.
And it just so happened and hehis name is Anthony
Portantinoino and his districtis in Los Angeles.
Just so happened he also had ahigh schooler and their high
school was in the midst oftalking about this issue of
school start times.
So I had sort of tapped intothis issue at a time when it
(05:39):
really was kind of hitting acritical mass.
So, long story short, he readthat he decided he wanted to
look into the issue because hewas interested in introducing a
bill on this topic of Star Times.
He ended up doing that.
I got caught up in this wholetwo and a half year legislative
journey.
I ended up testifying at thestate capitol, sacramento, about
(06:00):
this and being involved in allthe communications, and it
culminated in Californiaactually passing the first state
law in the country settingminimum allowed start times for
middle and high schools.
So, yeah, sort of this bit of ayou know crazy backstory, but
that finally got signed into lawin 2019.
(06:22):
Three-year implementationwindow went into effect in 2022,
which also just so happened tobe when my book came out,
because I was immersed in thistopic, talking to all these
researchers and gathering allthis info, and so all of that
happened in the summer of 2022.
And, as I mentioned, so whatpropelled me into this was the
(06:42):
issue of school start times,which is still an issue in so
many areas, you know, within theUnited States even today, but
also it's so much broader thanthat, and so really, my focus
now is you know, that's anessential piece of it when you
look at it, but even so, overall, our teens are sleep deprived
and there are so manyramifications and there are so
(07:04):
many other pieces that play into.
So really I, you know, focusmore broadly now on that, this
overall topic of sleep andwellness, because it affects
literally every single thing wedo.
Elizabeth Hamblet (07:18):
Well, that's a really good lead into you know
, our first question that we hadfor you when your kids are
little, you are constantly ontop of their nap situation,
right, making sure they have aconsistent bedtime.
And then they get older andthey're in charge of it and you
know.
So sleep is really importantfor all of us, but why, very
(07:39):
specifically, is it importantfor teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Lisa Lewis (07:44):
Specifically, is it important for teenagers?
Because I think sometimes weforget about that.
Yeah, so for teens, there are acouple of unique circumstances
that you know.
We do tend to think of sleep asbeing one of those things.
When our kids are little, it'slike, please, god, just let them
go to sleep and not, you know,get up in the middle of the
night and come wake me, and notwake at 6am, you know, and then
it totally, the situationtotally flips on its head when
our kids hit those teen years.
(08:06):
So, and there are severalcontributing factors to the
situation we have today, whichis that our teens are, by and
large, the most sleep deprivedof any age group.
So that is due to severaldifferent factors.
So the first is that when youthink about how much sleep you
(08:27):
need, we always hear eight hours, you know, as being kind of
this magic, perfect number.
So that is great for us asadults.
The official sleeprecommendations from the
National Sleep Foundation foradults over age 18 is seven to
nine hours.
So you know that's a prettybroad range, but the vast
majority of adults are going tofall somewhere within that.
So eight, great, that's themidpoint, that's perfect.
(08:48):
But teens need more sleep thanadults.
Up until age 18, they shouldactually be getting eight to 10
hours of sleep.
So I think the first thing isthat that's not always as widely
known, and particularly whenyou're looking at, you know, a
teen, a junior, a senior in highschool, they look like an adult
, but they're not.
(09:09):
They do need more sleep than wedo.
So when you talk about eighthours, that's the minimum that
they're supposed to be getting.
So that's the first piece of it.
The second is that they have ashift in their sleep timing.
So, as I was just referencing,you know, when your kid is four,
you know they're, or you know,even younger, they're bouncing
out of bed at 6am.
(09:30):
They don't do that once they'reteens.
You know there's all those sortof jokes about like needing to
go in and bang the pots and pansto get them out of bed at 11 in
the morning.
It's not just because suddenlythey became lazy, it's because
there is this fundamental shiftthat happens in the timing of
their sleep schedule.
So what happens?
It's called your circadianrhythm, which has to do with,
(09:52):
essentially, the when you areawake and when you're asleep,
and it is tied to light and dark, so we are alert and awake
during the day.
We sleep at night when it'sdark, and we have sort of an
internal schedule for that.
It is heavily influenced bylight.
But what happens for teens isthat whole schedule shifts later
as they enter adolescence.
(10:15):
And this is again.
This is a physiological thing.
So the hormone melatonin issomething that our brain
actually produces and it is whatprimes us to feel sleepy.
So melatonin is released andthen that sort of leads us to
start feeling sleepy, and thenwe get to that point we're
sleepy, we go to bed.
Well, melatonin begins to bereleased later in the evening
(10:38):
for our teenagers, and so all ofa sudden they're not feeling
sleepy as early as they used to.
So they're not feeling sleepyuntil roughly 11 o'clock at
night and then they need eightto 10 hours of sleep.
So you just kind of do the mathand then you look at the start
times and you can see if you'vegot to be up at, say, 630.
Or even earlier.
That makes it virtuallyimpossible to get eight to 10
(11:01):
hours of sleep.
So those are sort of the bigpieces affecting teen sleep.
And then there's so much elseand I know we'll get into some
of this because that's sort ofthe backdrop.
But then there's all the otherthings going on in school.
There's their homework load,there's their activities.
You know this whole issue ofoverscheduling, like that's real
(11:22):
, and all that ends up taking upmore and more and more of their
wake time, cutting into thatlittle piece that's allotted for
sleep.
Wow.
Vicki Nelson (11:32):
You know, I think you've just answered.
You know what's often been inmy mind, and I know other people
who say well, why don't theteenagers just go to bed earlier
?
Shouldn't we just enforce anearlier bedtime?
And if they've got to be atschool at 7.30 and we know they
need sleep, we say 9 o'clock,lights out, that's it, you're
(11:55):
done.
So now that makes more sense.
And you just mentioned a lot ofother factors.
So I'm curious.
I want to follow up on onethat's sort of my thorn in my
side a lot of the time, andthat's technology.
So how does now technology andall of the things that teens are
(12:17):
involved in, how does thatfactor into all of this?
Lisa Lewis (12:23):
Yes, yeah, great question, and it does.
The short answer is yes, itdoes factor in.
This relates back to what I wasjust talking about the light
and dark and the release ofmelatonin.
So tech is here to stay.
Obviously, it's not like we canjust we can delay when our kids
get phones, but they're onlineto do their school assignments
(12:43):
too.
I mean, being online is such anintegral part of their social
world.
The same way, you know, when Iwas in high school, I was on the
telephone for hours.
Well, now that's been replaced,you know.
So tech is here to stay.
It has a valid role, but itdoes absolutely have the ability
to impact their sleep.
So there are a few differentways that that happens.
The first is simply timedisplacement.
(13:06):
So if you are online until lateat night, at some point you are
literally cutting into hourswhen you could have been
sleeping instead.
So that's the first piece.
The second piece is that sooften, what our teens and we as
adults are doing online isstimulating and engaging.
So you know, for us, maybewe're watching, you know, a
(13:27):
movie or something, maybe we'rechecking our work email, so our
brain is still in work mode.
You know, for our kids, theycould be playing a video game
that's fast paced and energetic,they could be involved in some
kind of an emotional you knowchat with their friends about
you know the latest relationshipissue that's come up, or
whatever.
So all that is keeping youawake and alert.
(13:49):
And then the last piece of it isthe blue light aspect.
So this gets back to the lightpiece I was talking about
earlier.
Blue light is part of theoverall spectrum of light and,
in fact, the biggest source ofblue light for us is the sun,
and when we're out in the dayand we get blue source of blue
light for us is the sun, andwhen we're out in the day and we
get blue light that helps cueus to feel alert.
Well, these devices that we'reusing, these backlit devices,
(14:13):
they actually emit blue light.
It's just part of the way thatyou know they've been
constructed with the LEDs andthat blue light actually primes
us to feel alert.
So you are like giving yourselfthese extra doses of blue light
in the evening when you're onyour devices, and that can, in
turn, delay the release ofmelatonin, meaning you're not
(14:33):
going to feel sleepy until later.
So there's all three of theseways that tech can potentially
impact sleep.
Vicki Nelson (14:42):
So I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit.
I know one of the things we'rehoping to talk about, perhaps a
little later, is somesuggestions for parents and what
they can do.
But is it realistic to expectteens to put their devices aside
earlier?
In other words, you're notreally sleepy until later, but
(15:05):
let's not add this factor and,by a little bit earlier, put the
device away.
Lisa Lewis (15:11):
Yes, and in fact that is a best practice.
The American Academy ofPediatrics does recommend
getting off the tech devices anhour before bedtime.
So, again, that is the bestpractice.
So that is something maybe towork toward, Because, again,
just as with theserecommendations, we know what
the official recommendation isand then we know what reality is
, and so I feel like you know,you may not ever get to perfect,
(15:35):
but you can at least take stepsto get closer hour before
bedtime.
That would be ideal.
Even if you can't do that,though, work towards better than
what you have now.
Maybe it's a half hour beforebedtime, but getting off of
those devices rather thanstaying online, you know, go, go
, go, go, go and just turn itoff and expect that you can just
(15:57):
turn your brain off the sameway and just fall asleep.
Flip a switch, yeah, exactlyyeah, our brain does not have an
off switch, the way that, youknow, our devices do.
So that's the best practice isto get off devices an hour
before bedtime Along those lines, ideally not keeping them in
the bedrooms overnight.
So, you know, have a centralcharging station.
(16:19):
The other thing that we can doas parents is help model these
behaviors.
Other thing that we can do asparents is help model these
behaviors, because these arebest practices that apply for
all users of tech.
So you know if we've set ahouse rule yeah, no devices in
the bedrooms overnight.
We're just going to use analarm clock rather than the
alarm function on your phone Imean, those still exist out
there then our devices need tobe charging in the kitchen as
(16:41):
well, and we need to not besitting there on our laptops in
bed.
So it is also like having thisbe a family.
You know, set of tech rulesideally not just for teens, and
certainly if you haven't hadthese kind of rules in place,
showing that you are now goingto be part of it and kind of
working towards it and gettingyour teens buy-in is also a
(17:04):
pretty essential piece.
Elizabeth Hamblet (17:07):
Yeah, because they can smell hypocrisy miles
away, can't they?
Lisa Lewis (17:11):
Yes.
Elizabeth Hamblet (17:12):
Yeah, absolutely Do as I say, not as I
do.
Their BS detectors are quitegood.
So obviously just having acrabby teenager in your house is
just not fun in general andit's not good for your mental
health.
But let's talk more deeplyabout you know, just aside from
being tired, you know what isthe link between sleep and
(17:34):
mental health, sleep and riskybehaviors and something I think
a lot of parents are worriedabout sleep and grades.
Lisa Lewis (17:42):
Yeah, absolutely Well, sleep affects literally
everything we do.
I always tell people there'snot one single thing that you do
better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So so there.
So let me just kind of give aquick overview, because there's
so much to say about all ofthose topics.
But first looking at learning,because obviously that's like
(18:02):
the whole point of why our kidsare in school all day, right?
So when you are sleep deprived,it actually affects your
ability to learn and retaininformation.
So, and there are threedifferent steps in the process
where it particularly has aneffect.
The first is when you areacquiring that new information.
So you're sitting in class, andif you're not really awake and
(18:26):
alert, you know it's not reallypenetrating to the same degree.
That's the same, by the way.
You know, if you're at home andyou're reading like we've all
had that experience you'retrying to read something, you're
tired, and you realize you'vejust read the same page like
four times and nothing has sunkin right.
So that's the first step.
The second, though, right.
So that's the first step.
The second, though, isretaining that information,
because sleep is when our brainsare processing and synthesizing
(18:51):
all of that information we'vetaken in that day and moving it
from short-term into long-termstorage in terms of memory.
So all that is such a criticalpiece of learning is what
happens with that informationand how you retain it.
That's what's happeningovernight when we're sleeping.
And then the third piece iswhen you're trying to retrieve
(19:11):
that information, because ifyou're sleep deprived, just your
cognitive functioning is slowerand being able to retrieve that
information is much slower andmuch more difficult.
So that's the first piece.
So absolutely there's an impacton learning.
The other big piece, though Imean there's so many, but
another very large piece is themental health piece and again,
(19:36):
so many different ways thatbeing sleep deprived affects
this.
But to start, it's basicallyyour emotional resiliency is
restored when you've had a goodnight's sleep.
You have an emotional buffer,you are ready to greet the day.
It's a key part of there's aterm flourishing, which really
(19:59):
has to do with thriving, andthat has to do with not just
things like having a sense ofpurpose, but feeling engaged in
your daily activities and inyour interactions with others
and just having a positiveoutlook.
And so getting a good night'ssleep is a key piece of that,
because you wake when you've hada good night's sleep and you
feel good when you open youreyes, you know, as opposed to
(20:21):
when you wake and you haven'thad a good night's sleep like
you know it the second you openyour eyes and it just makes
everything that much moredifficult.
You know, throughout the day, ifyou have mental health issues,
like depression, like anxiety,et cetera, being sleep deprived
exacerbates them.
So you know again, if you areprone to that let's say there's
(20:43):
a genetic component of familyhistory you go in, maybe to a
medical professional.
That's one of the very firstquestions they're going to ask
is how is your sleep?
Are you getting enough sleep?
Because if you're not, that'sthe first piece they're going to
want to address.
That's like the low hangingfruit.
You know it can be verystraightforward If you're
regularly getting five hours ofsleep, well, they're going to
(21:04):
work with you on trying toincrease that, to get to, you
know, being within the rangebefore they're going to start
looking, you know, generallyspeaking, at other possible
causes, because sleep absolutelyis part of that.
And then you'd asked about riskybehaviors.
So, again, sleep affects, andthis is particularly acute with
(21:24):
teenagers.
When you haven't gotten enoughsleep, you are more prone to
risky behaviors, impulsivedecision-making, particularly as
a teen because your prefrontalcortex is not going to be
operating as efficiently and italready is not operating as
efficiently in our teens,because their brain is in the
(21:45):
midst of this multi-year processof brain remodeling and the
part that revs up first is thelimbic system, which is
responsible for sensationseeking and it, you know, all
that kind of stuff, whereas theprefrontal cortex, which is kind
of the breaking part of youknow the system, does not go
through that remodeling untillater on, and so they don't even
(22:07):
have a strong of a prefrontalcortex functioning to begin with
, and then, when you're sleepdeprived, it exacerbates that.
Vicki Nelson (22:15):
So it's just so overwhelming the amount of well,
I'm processing and as I readthe book, I mean I've already
sort of processed this a littlebit the amount of things that
are affected by sleep that sooften we don't realize.
(22:36):
And one of the areas as I readthe book that struck me the most
and maybe because I have agrandson who's an athlete and
does I mean, he's still youngbut he's several sports and he's
quite good at it was some ofthe things that you talked about
, some of the statistics eventhat you shared, about how
(23:02):
dramatically getting enoughsleep can improve athletic
performance, and it seems asthough for a lot of teenagers
who are very active athletes,this is one of the strongest
arguments for getting sleep.
Can you talk a little bit aboutsleep and athletics?
Yes, yes.
Lisa Lewis (23:21):
And absolutely it is to your point.
You know, possibly, the way inwhen you're trying to kind of
have these conversations withyour kid, because if they're an
athlete, maybe this is the piecethat's really going to resonate
, the message being that sleepis a competitive advantage.
So there is a study actuallythat really was sort of the
(23:42):
seminal study, for this was doneback in 2011 at Stanford.
A researcher there worked withthe Stanford men's basketball
team who they were not gettingenough sleep.
They were averaging less thanseven hours of sleep.
So she had them go through thisprocess of being in bed for at
least 10 hours a night as a wayto hopefully extend their actual
(24:03):
sleep time, because you can'tput someone to bed and say, okay
, sleep.
I mean, obviously it doesn'twork that way, but getting them
to, you know, prioritize it byspending more time in bed.
And, lo and behold, it worked.
They were getting less thanseven hours.
After this, they were gettingabout eight and a half hours of
sleep.
But what was so impressive waswhat that meant in terms of
their performance.
So all of a sudden, they wereposting a 9% increase in free
(24:28):
throws, a 9% increase inthree-point shots and they had
faster sprint times.
So it's like all of a sudden,this wasn't because they were
changing their training, it wasjust because they were faster
sprint times.
So it's like all of a sudden,like this wasn't because they
were changing their training, itwas just because they were
getting more sleep.
So and so this is now a messagethat is pretty, pretty widely
understood.
(24:48):
And and when you look at proteams, college teams, they often
have sleep consultants.
They work with you know,olympic athletes.
Many of them have come out verypublicly to talk about how
important sleep is to theirperformance.
So, absolutely so, when you getenough sleep, it improves your
performance.
On the flip side, when youdon't get enough sleep, it
increases your risk for injuries, because it affects things like
(25:12):
coordination and response time.
And then if you are injured, ifyou're not getting enough sleep
, it is likely going to lengthenyour recovery time.
Vicki Nelson (25:26):
There you have it.
Announcer (25:27):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (25:27):
I mean there are a lot of teenagers who are not
athletes, so there perhaps needto be some other arguments, but
for so many that's just it'sdramatic.
Lisa Lewis (25:39):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
And sleep also is primarilywhen growth hormone is released.
So that's another argument thatoften, you know, really cause
people, you know teens, to situp and take notice.
Elizabeth Hamblet (25:50):
So you know along those lines.
Obviously you talked about, youknow, setting some household
rules and modeling.
But you know, are there anysomewhat persuasive arguments
that you think parents should beusing while their kids are in
high school?
You know, to begin with, youknow about this Because students
feel the need, you know, intheir teenage years to be in
(26:11):
control of things.
Right, and I think in somecommunities there is that you
know grind culture, you knowwhere it's.
It's a point of pride to saywell, you know these kids in AP
classes who are getting loadsand loads of work and I'm coming
in on five hours and so how topersuade them?
(26:34):
You know they can still lieabout it at school if they want
right.
Lisa Lewis (26:44):
Yeah, no, it's tricky because it is
multifactorial, as you mentioned, and particularly when you are
in a high-achieving environment.
There are these other factorsthat are contributing the
homework load, theoverscheduling of activities and
the perceived need to do all ofthis in order to get into the
right school, because it's goingto determine your future and
all that.
And it's tricky because itneeds to be addressed at so many
(27:09):
different levels.
There's the kids themselves, asyou mentioned.
It's sort of a point of pride.
It's sort of this kind ofhumble bragging well, I only got
six hours of sleep.
Oh, well, I only got five hoursof sleep.
So they've got that.
Sometimes it's coming from thefamily, you know, this need to
sort of perceived need tosucceed academically in order to
get into the right school.
Sometimes it's, you know, bakedinto the school itself, which
(27:32):
may have responded to, you know,the sort of push from parents
because they, you know, want tobe high achieving school.
So it is coming from all thesedifferent places.
But at the same time there's apoint of diminishing returns and
I think that's what's soimportant to keep in mind.
One of the ways to sort of takea look at, you know, whether you
(27:55):
are indeed overscheduled is toliterally map out how many
waking hours you have, you knowduring a typical day, and how
those are currently beingallocated.
So you've got a set number ofhours that you're in school, but
then you have your hours forhomework for each class and it
may vary because the advancedlevel classes are often going to
have more homework.
Then there's all theextracurriculars and maybe it's
(28:17):
stuff they're doing in schoollike band and speech and debate,
or what have student governmentcould also be club sports
they're doing outside of school.
Maybe they also have a job.
They also need time to be ableto sit down and eat meals and
catch their breath and showerand things like that.
So you need to like factor inall that.
And if you do all that and thenyou see that there's not even
(28:39):
an eight to 10 hour window leftin the schedule, then it's
making it pretty hard for themto get, you know, enough sleep
and it's also maybe a sign thatit's time to reevaluate.
And what that means is going todiffer.
Obviously you know in each case,but when you think about it
we've already set the limitsomewhere.
(29:00):
Like people will brag aboutgetting five hours, they're not
going to brag about getting twohours of sleep right.
Like at some point you knowthere's a limit.
And it's the same with APclasses.
Even somebody who's overloadedtheir schedule with them, at
some point there's a limit.
They're not taking, excuse me,literally every single AP class
that the school offers, likethere is some limit they have
set in their mind.
Same with sports.
(29:21):
Even if you're a multi-sportathlete, you are not literally
participating in every singlesport that the school offers.
You have set that limitsomewhere, and it's, I guess.
Maybe my advice would be tolook at where you've set that
limit and perhaps recalibrate abit to look at where you've set
that limit and perhapsrecalibrate a bit.
Vicki Nelson (29:39):
Yeah, I know sometimes with my students who's
college level, who say theydon't have enough time.
When we sit down and take 168hours of the week and do exactly
what you're talking about, howmany do you do?
It's eyeopening for them torealize often at that stage, to
(30:01):
realize that they have more freetime than they thought they did
, that it fritters awaysomewhere.
But just that mathematicalapproach of saying this many
hours in a week or this manyhours in a day and then actually
looking at it, it does stareyou right in the face.
It's good, absolutely yeah, goahead.
Lisa Lewis (30:25):
Oh, I was just going to say it sounds like the big
piece that you're mentioning isthe time management piece, which
is huge and is something thatas kids leave home, they are
suddenly much more responsiblefor that and so often that can
use fine tuning.
But that's also something whenour kids are still at home and
they are in middle school andhigh school we are helping,
particularly in the youngerteens.
(30:46):
Helping them learn those skills, helping them figure out you
don't wait until the nightbefore something's due to
suddenly start on it.
So developing those skills issomething ideally they're doing
all the way through thosesecondary school years.
I still need to be startingearlier too, but the point is
like we are more involved whenthey're at home.
But hopefully we're helpingthem develop those skills
(31:08):
because that's going to helpeliminate those late nights in
high school Like, oh God, Ididn't start and it's due, but
also ideally equip them sothey're able to take that with
them when they do go off tocollege.
Vicki Nelson (31:19):
It strikes me that maybe college applications you
know as students are writingtheir admissions essays and all
they should include how manyhours of sleep do you get?
And maybe it boosts youradmission a little bit if you
say I get eight hours sleep,because then you know you're
going to have a student who'sgoing to be their sharpest.
(31:41):
Probably the admissionsofficers would not listen to my
argument, but it struck me, asyou were talking no-transcript,
(32:46):
that idea of sort of bankingyour sleep time on the weekend.
How helpful is that and howeffective is that to say, well,
yeah, I can only sleep on theweekend.
Lisa Lewis (33:04):
Yeah, so it does.
I'm.
I'm positive because there's acouple.
There's sort of two differentpieces over here.
One is banking, which isgetting enough sleep ahead of
time, okay, that it's in thebank before you're sleep
deprived, and that actually hasbeen shown to be a good strategy
.
So if you know you're going tohave some nights like that
(33:26):
coming up, being reallyintentional about starting off,
you know, in as good a positionas you can, so that's sort of
that concept of sleep banking.
The type of long weekend sleepthat you're referring to, though
, often is catch up sleep.
It's happening after the fact,and so that's a little bit
(33:46):
different, because you can neverreally truly catch up, so
you're always a little bitbehind.
So let's say that you havebuilt up this sleep deficit over
the course of the week, so youhave this accumulation of sleep
debt, because every night, let'ssay during the week, you're not
getting enough sleep, you endup with a sleep debt of 10 hours
(34:06):
.
Well, then you still need to begetting.
Let's just say, even if the kidis over 18 in college, let's
say they're supposed to begetting eight hours.
Well, they need to then add onan additional five hours on each
of those nights in order toreally make it up, and so that
actually probably is nothappening, even if they're
sleeping in until 11 or noon.
The other piece, though, is thatthen particularly if they not
(34:31):
so much probably for college,but certainly for adults going
to work, for high schoolersgoing to school you generally
have, you know, an earlier starttime, I would say, than college
students.
That's probably like one ofthose best silver linings of
colleges you don't have to takeclasses at 7.30 in the morning,
but it makes it that much harderto fall asleep at sort of a
reasonable hour on Sunday nightbecause you've got to get up.
(34:51):
Whatever time, you have to getup on Monday, and so you may not
be setting yourself up for goodsleep habits for the following
week either.
Vicki Nelson (34:59):
Yeah, and the other factor and I don't know
whether it does affect it or notmy college students have very
irregular schedules.
So they may have an 8.30 classon Monday and Wednesday, but no
classes until 11 on Tuesday andThursday.
(35:20):
So they get up early and thenthe next day they sleep late.
How does that factor in?
Lisa Lewis (35:27):
Yeah, no, you're right, and that is often the
reality, especially during thecollege years.
So ideally you want to befairly consistent about your
sleep schedule, which no onewants to hear, right?
Because if you've got to wakeat 630 on, you know as an adult,
like for work, and then youknow on the weekends you do not
want your alarm going off thatearly.
(35:47):
I mean, it's human nature andso the same, obviously, for
college students.
Those days when they don't haveto be up, what they consider
early for class, they'reprobably not going to want to
wake as early.
Um, however, if you can be moreconsistent, it's going to help
avoid these kind of issues wewere just talking about.
So, I mean, some variation isokay, but the the more wildly
your sleep schedule is swinging,the more you are apt to have
(36:09):
this concept of what they callsocial jet lag, because it is
like jet lag, I mean trying tolike get yourself on.
You know the schedule.
So so yeah, that that canactually be an issue.
And, frankly, in addition togetting enough sleep, the
official recommendations of allthe sleep groups that are out
(36:30):
there are that consistency ofsleep is also so important, and
this is not going to resonate somuch probably with college
students, but for us as adultsit affects.
It literally affects yourlongevity, I mean affects your
lifespan.
It affects things likecardiovascular risk.
I mean there's so many longterm effects of getting
inconsistent sleep on a chronicbasis.
Vicki Nelson (36:55):
So I have another question based on my observation
of my college students and evenmy memory of being in college
although that was a few yearsago, but some things don't
change and that is as much aswhen they were toddlers, we
could never get them to take anap.
My college students love naps,and so they can't wait until
(37:19):
they can go back to their roomand take a nap.
Is that a good thing?
Are they catching up a littlebit on some sleep, or is that
going to put them off cycle forgetting to sleep on time?
Lisa Lewis (37:36):
Yeah, no, naps are.
Naps can be great.
There's just sort of a coupleof kind of caveats you want to
keep in mind If you're going totake a nap.
Generally speaking, you don'twant to nap too late in the day,
because that is going topotentially make it harder, you
know, to fall asleep at kind ofthe right time at night.
(37:58):
Similarly, you don't want tonap too long, so generally,
about 45 minutes or so would bethe recommendation, and you know
taking a nap when you'refeeling like you need one is
fine, again, as long as you'resort of, you know, trying to
adhere to those guidelines.
The thing to keep in mind,though, is that a nap is
basically a compensatorystrategy.
(38:19):
Often, it's because you're notgetting enough sleep at night.
So, ideally, you don't want tofall into this habit of
regularly needing a nap.
You know getting less sleep atnight and needing a nap to be
able to make that up, becausethat, really, then, is a sign
that that's.
You know, if you were to begetting more sleep at night, it
might not be that same essentialnecessity to have a nap just to
(38:42):
be able to get through the day.
Vicki Nelson (38:46):
Naps are great.
They get us get a bunch of usthrough a lot of things.
Lisa Lewis (38:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, there is one other caveatwhich you know I'm sure we've
all experienced that if you naptoo long, you also fall into a
deeper sleep, and then you'regroggy, so you don't wake up
feeling refreshed.
So we have to learn how to napappropriately and then, and then
they're probably okay little,yeah, set a timer, you know,
(39:14):
don't go longer than 45 minutesand ideally if it's already
evening, like probably taking anap is not a great idea, yeah
just go to bed earlier well,yeah, yeah, I mean my students
described to me, you know,getting fatigued because
something's due the next day andthen trying to take a nap at
one o'clock in the morning andsleeping through whatever alarm
(39:34):
they've set.
So it's yeah, yeah, yeah,because they needed more than a
nap at that point.
They needed an actual longsleep, yeah that's a classic
story.
Vicki Nelson (39:45):
Yeah, slept through my alarm, um.
So you've talked a lot aboutthings that we can do at home,
you know, in terms of modeling,especially with technology and
devices and all of that.
Are there any other suggestionsfor parents of things or, I
(40:08):
guess, maybe, how to start thisconversation with their students
, because it does sound asthough you know, in order to put
some of the strategies you'vetalked about into place.
You've got to be explicit, buthow do you get the conversation
about sleep started?
Lisa Lewis (40:28):
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
I think it depends.
It depends on the scenario.
But oftentimes, you know, I'vehad people ask me well, how do
you convince kids that they'retired?
It's like, well, you know, ifyou're tired, I mean they're
aware of it.
You know they may be trying topower through it, but it's not
like you don't notice.
(40:48):
You know when you wake up tiredand you're draggy and all that,
but it's not like you don'tnotice, you know when you wake
up tired and you're draggy andall that.
So so I don't think it's somuch that, as much as it is
probably trying to ask questions, you know, as opposed to coming
(41:09):
and saying hey, let's say, youknow, as a scenario you've got
and I'm assuming you're talkingabout a kid who's still at home
for you know, purpose of this,this conversation.
So let's say you've got a kidwho you know, knows that they
really need to be in bed by 1030, because of what time they have
to get up, but they'reregularly not doing that.
(41:30):
Asking them, you know, if it'snot already overly obvious, like
, well, what's getting in theway of you know you being able
to get to sleep on time?
And I say overly obviousbecause, let's say, they're not
getting home from sportspractice till 10 o'clock, like
well it's pretty obvious that'sgoing to be a major contributing
factor.
But there may be other thingsgoing on.
So you know asking questions,you know being curious, you know
(41:53):
which obviously that's sort ofjust generally as parenting
advice tends to work better thancoming in and you know telling
them some great solutionsbecause they don't really think
of those as being helpful.
So asking those kind ofquestions, like essentially
trying to help with them, figureout what is it that's kind of
the pain point here that'smaking it so hard.
(42:14):
You know cause I know you knowyou want you're trying to get to
bed at 11 and it just seemslike there's or 1030, and
there's always these things thatare coming up.
You know what are some of thethings you know we can do to
help so that it's probablycoming in with more of that
helpful attitude and trying toseek to be their partner in it
as opposed to adversarial.
Like I told you, you weresupposed to be in bed and it's
(42:36):
like why isn't it happening andwhat can we do to kind of
address those contributingcauses?
So that's sort of the broadadvice, because the reasons why
it can vary.
It can be the sports, it can bethe homework load, maybe they
are taking too heavy of ahomework load.
It can be time managementskills, as you alluded to before
(42:58):
.
You know in terms of planningand when you're getting started
on assignments, it can be toomany things that they're
scheduled to do.
You know late night practices,you know all that stuff.
So it's trying to figure outwhat is actually most relevant
in your kid's particularsituation and then from there
you can figure out what are someways to help address those.
Vicki Nelson (43:14):
Yeah, I think one of the really positive things
that I take out of thisconversation, and a lot of what
you've shared, is that therereally are ways to strategize
and to be proactive.
We know we're tired, and Ithink that's probably true of a
(43:36):
lot of parents as well.
It's not just teenagers, it'snot just kids.
We know we're tired, we knowour kids are tired they dragged
school, whatever but we don'tthink we can do anything about
it.
And so you know, I really likehaving some of those ideas and
strategies, ways to talk aboutit and things to do.
(43:59):
I guess, oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Well, I was going to say Iguess you know we could keep
going, but one of the otherpieces in terms of doing
something about it, I wonder,just before we finish up, if you
could talk a little bit aboutthis movement that it seems to
(44:19):
be happening to try to makeschools start later, as you were
able to proactively help thatto happen.
But if parents are in acommunity and the school starts
at 7.15 or 7.30, what are someways that they can start to
(44:41):
maybe begin to advocate and getthat conversation started
locally in their own communities?
Lisa Lewis (44:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it starts with having acommon foundation of knowledge,
so that you know all the kindof things we're talking about
here, how much sleep kids reallyneed to be getting, the fact
that they do have this circadianrhythm shift, so it's not just
that they're being lazy, youknow, etc.
So sharing this kind ofinformation is quite literally
(45:13):
the best place to start.
You know, I am absolutely aproponent of addressing start
times at the state level,because you know you can have
the broadest impact.
That's not to say that that'sthe only way this can happen.
However, it has happened and itcontinues to happen in
districts around the country assmall as a single high school or
(45:35):
as large as an entire city.
I mean, up until California'slaw, it had never been done at
the statewide level before interms of setting the minimum
allowed start times.
Meanwhile, it has happened on agrassroots level in so many
communities and I say so manybecause I can't quantify it
because there's no centraldatabase of districts that have
changed their start times, but Imean it's hundreds at least and
(46:01):
so that does continue to be avery effective way to do it.
So, in terms of sharinginformation, that can start with
a school-wide meeting that canstart with a school-wide meeting
.
That can start with partneringwith the pta.
In fact, the california statepta was one of the co-sponsors
of the bill in california, theother co-sponsor being start
(46:22):
school later, which is anon-profit that advocates for
this.
You can also look at starting alocal chapter of start school,
because that is a terrifictreasure trove of resources from
other people who have done thisin their communities.
But, you know, partnering withthe PTA, hold a meeting.
Bring in a local pediatricianor sleep specialist to talk
(46:44):
about sleep.
Bring in somebody who you know.
I go in and speak regularly toschools.
I speak to parents about all ofthis.
You know, oftentimes when I'mgoing in, they may be more
broadly interested because, as Imentioned at the beginning of
our conversation, school starttimes are such an essential
(47:04):
piece of the equation but thatis, you know, not at all the
entire picture.
And so many times there areschools where they may not have
super, super early start timesand yet there are still issues
of sleep deprivation because ofeverything else we've been
talking about the overscheduling, the academic expectations, et
cetera, et cetera.
So, as I was saying, so I thinkit starts with trying to hold
(47:29):
those sort of conversations,getting together with other
like-minded parents, havingconversations with the school
administrators.
Often you will find that youknow if they are aware of the
research, they understand thatit does have a direct impact on
grades, on attendance rates, onmental health, on all these
other aspects.
So, starting to have thatconversation, figuring out who
(47:50):
your allies are locally andbuilding from there, there's
hope.
Elizabeth Hamblet (47:58):
Well, and obviously to get that
information, everybody shouldread Lisa's book.
Vicki Nelson (48:02):
Well, that's the best place to start.
Elizabeth Hamblet (48:04):
And then you make it a community read.
Yeah, absolutely.
Lisa Lewis (48:09):
Well, and to your point, I mean, I actually, when
I was writing the book, Iliterally wrote the book that I
wished that I had had when I wasjust in working on this journey
.
So, you know, starting off withthat foundational information,
giving you know that overview ofall the various ramifications,
from learning to mental health,to drowsy driving, to sports,
(48:29):
and then, like a third of thebook is all about specific
strategies.
So there are some specific tostart times, but there's also,
you know, you know, I'm sure,having read the book as well as
you both have, you know, a wholechapter on technology and on,
you know, specific kinds ofthings you can do during the day
to help prepare you for a goodnight's sleep.
(48:50):
You know nighttime strategies,wind down routines, so, yeah, so
I do get into all of that andand as you can see, it's a topic
I'm passionate about and, justyou know, could go on and on.
Vicki Nelson (49:00):
So again, just to remind people the book is the
Sleep Deprived Teen, why OurTeenagers Are so Tired and how
Parents and Schools Can Helpthem Thrive.
By Lisa L Lewis.
Lisa, if people would like tofollow up, if they would like to
learn more about the book,learn more about you, reach out,
(49:22):
what are?
Are there ways that they can dothat?
Lisa Lewis (49:26):
Yeah, absolutely Best way would be through my
website.
My email address is on thereand it's wwwlisallewiscom.
Vicki Nelson (49:37):
Okay, so they go there and they can find out more
about the book and more abouteverything and reach out to you
if they need to.
Lisa Lewis (49:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I'm always happy to chatwith people about sleep.
Vicki Nelson (49:51):
Well, we are both.
Elizabeth is nodding her headand I'm speaking for both of us
to say we're both reallygrateful that you took time to
spend with us and have thisconversation.
It is such an important topicfor teenagers and college
students and probably theirtired parents as well, so it's
(50:14):
good for all of us.
So thank you so much and wewill put some of this
information in the show notes ofthe podcast.
And if you get back and forth,if you are listening to the
podcast, that's wonderful.
But if you know other peoplewho do not listen to the podcast
(50:35):
but maybe do YouTube, Elizabeth, where do they look on YouTube
there?
Elizabeth Hamblet (50:40):
we go Sorry, yeah, it'll be on YouTube.
Vicki Nelson (50:44):
And how do they find it on YouTube?
Elizabeth Hamblet (50:46):
They just find my website, my page.
There is the LD Advisorywebpage and you'll find it there
.
Vicki Nelson (50:53):
And we put those in the show notes too.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for being here, our
viewers for watching us and LisaLewis for sharing your
information with us.
Lisa Lewis (51:09):
Absolutely.
Thank you both so much.
Really love talking to youabout this.
Vicki Nelson (51:13):
Okay, thanks.
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