#120 – Partnering with Your Student’s High School Counselor - College Parent Central Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.

(00:31):
Join your hosts, vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration ofthe amazing child in college.

Vicki Nelson (00:47):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about just about anything
that has to do with parenting acollege student or parenting a
high school student that isthinking about college and
getting ready for college, andsometimes we even touch on
students who have graduated fromcollege and getting ready for
college.
And sometimes we even touch onstudents who have graduated from
college and looking at theirnext steps.

(01:09):
My name is Vicki Nelson.
I am one of the co-hosts ofthis podcast and I come to this
as a college professor who workswith students every day and I
see what goes on with them, butalso as a parent who has sent
three daughters to college andthey have come out the other
side, and I am here today withmy co-host and also with the

(01:33):
guests.
So, lynn, I'm going to let youintroduce yourself first.

Lynn Abrahams (01:37):
Hi everyone.
My name is Lynn Abrahams and Ialso come to this both
professionally and personally.
Professionally, I am a learningdisability specialist.
I work with college studentsand their families and have done
that my entire career.
But I'm also a mom of two sonswho have gone through college or

(02:03):
in and out and breaks and back,and you know the root and we've
lived to tell the story.
So I come to this, you know, asa parent and as a professional.

So that's who we are and our background, but for
today that matters a whole lotless than the person that we are
going to be talking to, andthis is someone that I have been
saying for several years thatwe needed to get on the podcast.
So we're very excited that thiscould happen today.
We are here today with PatrickO'Connor.
We're very excited to have himwith us.

(02:39):
A college counselor for 40 years, professor O'Connor is past
president of the NationalAssociation for College
Admission Counseling and servedas the inaugural school
counselor ambassador fellow withthe US Department of Education

(03:07):
kinds of issues related tocollege admissions and education
and teaches a collegecounseling course to both new
counselors and experiencedcounselors.
He also presents workshops tostudents, parents and educators
and has published five books oncounseling.
He writes a weekly column oncounseling that appears in High
School Counselor Week and hisnew book, college Counseling

(03:31):
Advice for School CounselorsCollege Counseling Advice for
those Giving College CounselingAdvice, was just published in
July of 2024.
And he will correct me onanything I got wrong there.
So we're going to give him anopportunity to introduce himself
and correct me, and maybe,patrick, if you could talk a

(03:54):
little bit about what broughtyou to this field of college
counseling.

Patrick O'Connor (03:59):
Sure, vicki and Lynn, thank you so much for
the opportunity to chat with youand your listeners today.
I really appreciate it.
It's always great to talk withparents and this is an exciting
time of year to do that work, aseverybody starts to get ready
to get back to school.
Yeah, so you know everythingyou said is spot on.
And you know, primarily Iactually started in this work

(04:23):
because I was the first in myfamily to graduate from college
and, you know, was born andraised in northwest Detroit in a
neighborhood where that was,you know, the big goal.
The big goal was to own yourown house and make sure your
kids went to college.
And you know, for all the greatopportunities I've had, the work

(04:47):
that still drives me on a thebooks and in addition to the new
book for school counselors,there's also a book for parents

(05:09):
and students out there calledCollege is Yours Three,
published a year ago but still,I think, very relevant for folks
who are looking for a quickreference.
The chapters are a whopping twopages long each, so I didn't
want to bore you to death.
I wanted to tell you what youneeded to know, and, and so
that's available as well and butalso just the work directly

(05:32):
with students has has been mostgratifying as well.
So just just a greatopportunity to to do something I
love for a very long time it'sthe students that keep us all
coming back, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, I was just going to say that that is
something that we all three havein common, you know, committed
to helping students, you know,in their way.
You know I'm wondering if youcould tell us a little bit or
give us a little overview ofbasically what school you know
counselors do, overview ofbasically?

what school counselors do, sort of the
different areas where you workwith students, yeah, sure.
So when you ask what a highschool counselor does, it's
basically three things.
The first piece, which hasgotten much more attention, I
would say, in a post-COVID era,is social and emotional growth.
We find that we have a lot ofstudents coming back from COVID

(06:28):
not quite sure what to make ofschool and not quite sure what
to make of society in general,and so they end up with some
growth and self-esteem issuesthat need to be tended to and
that, right now, is probably thelargest component of a school
counselor's caseload.
So the social-emotional growth,academic progress within the

(06:50):
school itself, making sure thatthe student is taking good
courses and making the most ofall of the learning
opportunities in school, andthen finally, post-secondary
planning, not just college butalso career, and hopefully
counselors are going to be ableto do both of those at the same
time.
This may surprise some of yourlisteners, because very often

(07:11):
when I ask parents what theythink school counselors do,
their answer is change schedules.
And while that's certainly whatwe do at the high school level,
that's only a small part ofwhat we do and, in theory, it's
not really something we'resupposed to do, but we somehow
end up doing it anyway.
But, as we all know, aseducators we sometimes end up

(07:33):
doing things that the jobdescription doesn't quite
fulfill.
So, but those are the three bigtopics of what school
counselors are there forstudents and families are there
for students and families.

And what is the training for this job?
Are you licensed?

Are you certified?
How do people become highschool counselors?
Yeah, that's a great question.
It does vary greatly from stateto state, and so in Michigan,
actually, you can either be acertified school counselor or a
licensed school counselor, andthe basic difference in Michigan
is that it depends on whetheryou were a teacher or not before
you became a school counselor.
Many people are surprised tofind that you do not have to

(08:15):
have a teaching background to bea school counselor in some
states, but that's simplybecause right now we do not have
an abundance of schoolcounselors out there, and so, in
order to make sure that we haveas many people out there who
are caring about kids inthoughtful ways, there are
states that will allowcounselors to become school

(08:36):
counselors without a teachingbackground at all.
So licensure and certificationare sort of a state by state
issue.
Ninety nine percent of us willend up at some kind of graduate
school counselor trainingprogram, and almost all of those
will include an internshipmentorship where you'll be

(08:56):
involved, working under thetutelage of an experienced
school counselor for anywherefrom 150 to 600 hours before you
can become a school counseloron your own.

So you mentioned there is not an overabundance of
school counselors, and we'vecertainly.
You know, I've been hearingthat for a long time and I'm
wondering you know how you do itall.
You talk about academic issuesand social emotional issues and
you know how you do it all.
You talk about academic issuesand social-emotional issues and
you know college counseling andcareer counseling.

(09:30):
Is there an average load for ahigh school counselor?
I'm sure it varies, but ingeneral, how many students often
are counselors responsible for?

Yeah, well, you know, in terms of again,
when you look at sort of anational number, that number is,
I believe, somewhere in theneighborhood of about 450
students to one.
Now here in Michigan we haveactually taken great strides to
be proud of the fact that we'refinally under 600 students.

(10:04):
Michigan, our ratio was actuallythe second highest in the
country and I believe itactually still is second to only
Arizona.
And just as a point of reference, when I started in the field 8
million years ago, the AmericanSchool Counselor Association
said you know, in a perfectworld, one counselor can meet

(10:25):
the needs of 250 students andthere are maybe about six states
that have that ratio.
The rest are higher and in somecases much higher.
And the way that it all getsdone basically is we have to
make some decisions.
Counselors are trained in manyways to do group presentations

(10:46):
to try and meet the needs ofstudents to the best of their
ability when they can do that,but also receive significant
training to meet individualneeds and also create group
programs for students.
And then of course, have aseries of evening programs and
communication tools where theyreach out to parents to help

(11:08):
parents understand what theschool counselor does and even
provide some parenting help withtheir students cases when the
time is tough or tight, whatthey best try and do is put
together group presentations andsmall group programs to meet

(11:31):
those needs.

Those numbers are just staggering to me.
Yeah, those numbers.

Yeah, at one point I actually did the math
and you know, the benefit ofbeing a classroom teacher is
that you get to see everystudent every day and at the
time that I did the math inMichigan, in order to do that,
for a school counselor to seeevery student on their caseload,
they'd get to spend 13 secondswith each student.

(12:02):
Oh, my God 13 seconds with eachstudent, so it is a bit of a
challenge.
The good news is that in mostcases, school counselors are
made aware of the challengesthat they face as part of their
training, so they don't walkinto the building thinking

(12:23):
they're going to have 15 minuteswith every kid every week.
So we do know what we're upagainst and we're meeting the
challenges best we can.

Yeah, anyway, god bless counselors.
It's amazing.
So, with that many students andthat little time with students,
which I'm sure is not evenlydistributed because some
students are needier than others, it would seem as though there

(12:51):
might be some things that, fromthe student's perspective, that
a student could do or should notdo to take advantage of the
time that they do have with thecounselor.
So would you have any advicefor students in terms of if you
want to make the most of whatyou can do with your counselor

(13:14):
here, these things would help.

Sure, absolutely Well.
And actually, this being closeto the start of the school year,
and actually this being closeto the start of the school year,
my advice would be to make surethat you read that first
communication that comes outfrom your school counselor.
That first piece in the falltends to be very brief, because
we know that parents andstudents are inundated with all

(13:39):
kinds of stuff at the start ofthe school year.
But that communication toolbasically explains two things
the services that the counselorprovides and the best way to
communicate with the counselor.
And you know, counselors arehuman, like everybody else.
Some prefer emails, some prefertexting, some prefer phone
calls, but they will.

(14:01):
That introductory newsletter orcommunication will often just
say you know, if you need helpor if you want you know, here's
the best way to do that.
And then they communicate thatalso to the students through the
schools as well, through theirhomerooms, to let them know.

Experienced counselors have a system where
students who need to see themcan find some way to sign up,
either by asking a secretary ifthey have a counseling secretary
or there's a website, or it maybe as basic as a emails that
they get.
Because we're on the collegelevel, we're fighting that all
the time.
You know, when you getsomething from the college, read
the email from the college,read the assignment from the
professor.
So I'm glad you're working attrying to encourage them to do

(15:03):
that in high school and formthose habits.

Yeah, and it can be a bit of a challenge
because you know, young peopleare so much further ahead of the
rest of us and you know they'retexting their friends, they're
instant messaging their friends.
And you know, I once had astudent.
I used to send an email with aweekly college newsletter to
students and I had a studentcome in and say well, you know,

(15:29):
dr O'Connor, this is a real niceemail, but it's a little long.
Could you just text me how toget into college?
And I said you know, if I couldactually put how to get into
college into a text, I don'tthink I'd be working here.
So we do.
You know, it is one of thosethings where we have to teach

(15:49):
the students to slow down alittle bit, but on the other
hand, I don't know that that'ssuch a bad thing either.
So I think the truth issomeplace in the middle.

You know I work with a lot of students who have
had challenges in high schooland parents who are really
worried about them.
You know what is the role thatyou play with parents and what
is a good way for parents tosupport their, their kids.

(16:17):
You know, at this stage, yeah,well it's.

You know, the real challenge for all students
in high school is to learn howto take advantage of their
support team while at the sametime sort of leading the drive.
And you know, when I talk tocollege admissions officers and
when I talk to veteran schoolcounselors, they say you know,
the key to putting together aneffective strategy for each
student is to let the studentdrive the bus, let the student
take the lead to the extent theypossibly can.
Now, that's going to be verydifferent from student to

(16:57):
student.
But on the other hand, I wouldalso say I think we want to make
sure not to underestimate ourstudents.

(17:21):
You know, a lot of timescounselors very much care about
kids and certainly there goingto be out on their own and
they're going to need a skillset that that leads to
self-advocacy, and so I think ifyou keep that in mind and keep
that in front of the parents,the best way to do that for each
individual student really kindof comes up all by itself and

(17:44):
that path is pretty easilydiscerned.
And I should say you know, ifthere are parents who are not
certain what to do about that,feel free to call the counselor.
You may not get a call backthat day, because it's not a
fire that needs to be put outright away and we do need to do
some triage once in a whilebecause of our high caseloads.

(18:06):
But they'll get back with youand give you some information
about what you may need or howyou can best support your child.

That sounds wonderful.

Yeah, yeah, and I'm thinking a little bit now
specifically about the collegeadmissions process, which takes
over so much of college, highschool years, and especially
with the kind of numbers thatyou're talking about in terms of

(18:38):
one counselor for many, manystudents, not all of whom are
going to college.
But what should a student andtheir parents expect from the
college counselor, the schoolcounselor, in terms of the

(18:59):
college admissions process, andwhat should they be taking their
own initiative on?

Well, I think you know.
The question I'm asked mostoften is you know, what's the
key to being college ready?
And the answer there is the keyto being college ready is to
make the most out of high schooland and and.
So what school counselors willdo is develop what's called a

(19:30):
college counseling curriculum.
And, just like we have anEnglish curriculum, a social
studies curriculum, there is acounseling curriculum.
And just like we have anEnglish curriculum, a social
studies curriculum, there is acounseling curriculum.
And the curriculum has lessonplans and information and,
unlike the social studiescurriculum, where it's a
question of perhaps memorizing alot of dates and facts as part

(19:54):
of that, this is really skillacquisition.
This is about it is someinformation about different
kinds of colleges, differentkinds of careers, but it's also
about having the skills to be asuccessful college student.
So, demonstrating curiosity,demonstrating initiative,
demonstrating creativity, beingable to do things in an

(20:16):
organized and prompt way theseare the kinds of things that
become part of the collegecounseling curriculum.
So most parents and students cancount on some kind of college
counseling curriculum to existat their school.
In some cases it's a littlemore developed than it is.
At other schools it's a littlemore developed than it is at

(20:41):
other schools, but schoolcounselors generally prepare a
series of activities forstudents to get them first aware
of what college is and thensecond the options that would
best match their goals incollege, and that system is
pretty well set up by veterancounselors.
I would say, however and thisis a point of contention, this
is sort of a bone of contentionwith me that in their

(21:03):
preparation for their trainingthere are very few graduate
programs in school counselingthat actually have a course in
teaching counselors how to docollege counseling.
In teaching counselors how todo college counseling, they will
often give them a few hours ofinstruction as part of a careers
unit, but many counselors havesaid that if they had it to do

(21:25):
all over again, the one thingthey wish they had more training
of in graduate school was howto help kids make good college
decisions.

Wow, I want to follow up on that a little bit
and jump ahead something I wasgoing to ask you a little later,
but because you're talkingabout the curriculum, I think I
saw on your website that youhave a curriculum that's free to
colleges to excuse me, to highschools to use as a college

(21:53):
curriculum and I'm wondering Imean you say many counselors
would create a curriculum orperhaps use your curriculum.
Is that something, if a schooldoes not have that, that parents
should be advocating for andshould be looking?

(22:16):
I mean, you don't get to chooseyour high school most of the
time but should they beadvocating to try to have
something like that?
And does it help level theplaying field perhaps for
students who may befirst-generation students to go

(22:37):
to college?

Yes, absolutely, and I'm really glad
you raised the issue offirst-generation students.
In general.
I am convinced that in manycases the efforts to try and get
students to think about collegesometimes begin a little bit
too early and are a little toospecific.
You know, my best advice forninth and tenth grade college

(23:02):
students is that for at leastthe first year and a half of
high school they should justmake the most of being a high
school student.
You know it keeps.
You know, I've had jobs inschools where students would
come in in ninth grade and saywhat should my college essay be
about?
And you know, and the answer isit should be about the life
you're, opportunities forcollege with them, in the same

(23:22):
way that other students are, andjust as important.

(23:43):
It's also the case that neitherare their parents, and in some
cases the parents may actuallyhave a bias against college that
would prevent their child fromrealizing their full potential,
their child from realizing theirfull potential.
So as parents find out aboutthis college piece yes, it would

(24:05):
, you know it's certainly theycan ask the college counselor
what do you do for college?
And the counselor should havean answer.
But for those districts orschools where the first, these
would be kids who are the firstin their family to go to college
.
The first, these would be kidswho are the first in their
family to go to college.
That conversation needs tohappen a lot sooner.
There is data or research tosuggest that it should actually

(24:26):
start as soon as fifth or sixthgrade, and so and again, that's
not here's you know.
Here's everything you need toknow about this college, but
more about here's theopportunity the college provides
and that that curriculum needsto not only address it with the
student, but needs to address itwith the parents as well.

So would that be a multi-year curriculum?
All right, it's junior year,let's throw in this curriculum
too.

No, absolutely .
Yeah, there are, even though Ijust said that you know, for me
ninth and tenth grade should besort of devoid of that.
There are some things thatcounselors can emphasize.
So, yes, it would be amulti-year curriculum and, again
, especially with first gens,that would expand well into
middle school and perhaps evenlate elementary school as well.

So it's just in those early years.
I'm trying to think about thebalance.
I mean, I'm 100% with you interms of ninth and 10th grade,
just don't be focused on collegeyet.
But how is that balance betweenexposing and having you think
about college and think aboutthe options that may be out

(25:42):
there, while still saying don'tthink about college if that
makes sense?

Yep, well, and certainly that is a careful
balance and very often the bestway that those are addressed are
really with group presentationsand they often include not only
college but careeropportunities as well.
And you know there will becounselors who will go into, say

(26:09):
, the ninth grade Englishcourses with a 20-minute
presentation on college andcareer options, with a 20 minute
presentation on college andcareer options that really just
sort of plant some seeds thatdon't necessarily have to give
uh, students any specifichomework, but just kind of say
you know, here's what's outthere and here are some things
to think about, and and, uh,then just sort of, let you know,

(26:30):
leave it at that.
So, uh, these things do tend tobe sort of uh, open-minded, but
but.
But the most effective thingthey can do is is go into those
classrooms and talk about whatare really sort of the three key
elements of successful collegepreparation, which would be to
take the most challengingcourses they can take and do

(26:51):
well on them, to take fulladvantage of the learning
opportunities outside theclassroom.
So that would be extracurricularactivities and community
service.
And while many colleges do notspecifically require or expect
students to engage in communityservice, my experience as a

(27:14):
school counselor shows that inorder for students to really get
a better understanding of theworld around them, they need to
be involved in the world aroundthem, and for me the best way to
do that is community service.
So when counselors addressthose three issues, they are in
essence doing some collegepreparation, because the student

(27:35):
who successfully does all threeof those in ninth and 10th
grade, when the conversationturns to college in the fall, in
the spring of the junior year,that student's going to be ready
with a perspective and anacademic portfolio that will
maximize their collegeopportunities.

You know, I'm curious about sort of another
group of students, and those arethe students who end.
Maybe it wasn't the best choiceto go right from high school to
college.
Do you see that situation andhow do you deal with that If
there's a difference betweenwhat parents want and what the
student wants?

wants.
Yeah, and in many cases, lynn,it's partially a question of the
parents wanting the kid to goto college, and very often it's
also the parents wanting thestudent to go to a particular
college, and that's somethingI've seen more of than the whole
notion of college in general.
By and large, students who wantto go to college, by the time
they're ready to make thatcommitment, you know most of

(29:02):
them realize that at the corethey're looking at four more
years of homework, and sostudents who want to go to
college are like, okay, well, Iknow what I'm signing up for,
let's go.
But yeah, there are some timeswhere the parents and the
students don't have their goalsaligned and your best bet is to

(29:23):
try and pull back and have aconversation about just what
that goal is and the best way toachieve it.
And you know I have reallyspent most of my career focused
on college counseling.
But I will be the first to saythat I don't think every student
needs to go to college, andcertainly not every student
needs to go to college rightaway.

(29:46):
I teach political science atOakland Community College in
addition to my work as a schoolcounselor, and I can very easily
sort out the students who spenta few years away from college
or from school, from thestudents who have just sort of
automatically signed up forcommunity college because they
think it's the right thing to doand they treat it like grade 13
.
And then that's sort of arecipe for disaster, as I think

(30:10):
we have all probably seen,unfortunately, seen
unfortunately.
So I think you know when it'sclear that there is a concern,
the challenge, I think, is thatthe student sometimes doesn't
feel like they could raise thisissue with the counselor, and so
you really have to be verysensitive to the counselor or to
the student, and if they're notreally jumping in with great

(30:34):
enthusiasm about the collegediscussion, it could be that
that there are some other issuesunderlying that need to be
discussed.
It could be they don't thinkthey're ready.
It could be they're worriedthey're going to be rejected
from their top choice.
There are all kinds ofpossibilities out there.

Well, this is a complicated choice.
You know it's.
You know we see it's adifficult choice to make.
You know what to do right afterhigh school.
Any advice you could giveparents on how to get those
conversations going?

going Well.
You know, I think what you know, one of the things that parents
can certainly consider is thesimple task of visiting a
college campus.
That's one of that's really oneof the things that I think is
really underestimated in termsof the effect of the powerful
nature of a tool.
I had a student once who gotout.

(31:42):
Once they got out of collegethey were an okay student, you
know.
They were doing B plus work,and then at the time, my advice
to my families was that inJanuary of the 10th grade year,
after final exam or aftermidterm exams, go visit a couple
of college campuses, and theydon't have to be places you're

(32:03):
necessarily interested in.
The goal here is to just showthe student what college is all
about and let them see itfirsthand.
Well, with this particularstudent they came back and they
were, they were a changed personbecause they found a place that
was ideal and they said it waswonderful.
And I had to have a brief butdifficult conversation that said

(32:25):
well, OK, but you need to knowthis particular school that you
have fallen in love with isgoing to expect a little more
from you than what you'recurrently delivering, more from
you than what you're currentlydelivering, and that student
made the Dean's list for theremaining two and a half years
of their time at college, atschool, because high school all
of a sudden had a reason to bethere.
And I guess, if I could for justa second, I know that there are

(32:48):
lots of students out there thatare that are struggling to find
purpose in high school rightnow, in part because of COVID
and part for all kinds ofreasons.
My best advice to thosestudents and to the parents that
are nurturing those studentsalong, is show them the big
picture.
Show them that there's more tolife than high school.

(33:10):
High school is a wonderfulthing, to be sure, and it has
lots of wonderful opportunities.
High school is a wonderfulthing, to be sure, and it has
lots of wonderful opportunities.
But life is not limited to highschool, and for many students
who are lost and trying to findtheir way, they need to see what
the bigger picture is about,and once they see the bigger
picture, they'll be able to makea connection between it and
high school in a meaningful way.

And is that where some of the community service
opportunities can play?

Yes, yes, absolutely.
And I would also add that, atleast in my opinion, the best
way to get a student startedwith that is to treat it as a
family activity.
You know, soup kitchens don'tjust need 14-year-olds In fact,
they could probably use a fewless of them.
But even better would be ifthey had the 14 year olds along

(34:01):
with mom and dad.
So I would encourage familieslooking.
You know, very often we havestudents who are looking to be
independent in high school forthe first time in their lives
and parents are like well, howcan we make a connection?
Community service is a greatway to do that, and you don't
necessarily have to look pastyour own community.
You don't have to spend $6,000to send them to Malaysia to go

(34:24):
build toilets.
You know the YWCA, the YMCA,your local church, synagogue,
place of worship.
There's ample need forcommunity service in your
community and that's what we'rereally talking about.

Life experience.
Yeah, life, life experience.

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

You know, I'm hearing you talk about things
that parents can do and, andcertainly parents are partners
in this admission process,assuming the student is going to
college, and even if they'renot, in discovering that they're
not, that college is not thepath.

(35:04):
And I'm wondering, in terms ofthe work that counselors do, is
there an ideal parent-partner,what's kind of the ideal role
for the parent to play?
You have the student, you havethe counselor, you have the

(35:24):
parent.
It's sort of a tripod in asense, and I'm wondering what is
the role of parents?

Well, I guess I would say parents really sort
of have three functions.
First, I would say they want todefinitely make sure that they
are reviewing the communicationsthat come from the school
counselor.
Most school counselors havedeveloped, or will develop in
their first couple of years, aseries of newsletters or emails

(35:55):
or evening presentationsdesigned to keep parents in the
loop, because they know theinvaluable role that parents
play.
And so those communicationtools are almost always designed
not to just simply say you know, the PSAT is going to be given
next week, but rather here'swhere your child is in their

(36:17):
life and here's what they shouldbe thinking about.
And so there really is sort ofa developmental component to
this, to these communicationtools.
So make sure you read those.
Number two, obviously if yousee anything in terms of your
child's behavior that's unusualor concerning, you want to

(36:38):
communicate that to thecounselor in the way that they
best can, that they bestpossibly can.
And again, most counselors intheir tools will say here's how
to get a hold of me if you needto, and so sort of be the person
to do that.
And then, third, they reallyneed to be the partner when it
comes time for things likecollege visits, when it comes
time to talk about how to payfor college, when it comes time

(36:58):
for things like college visits,when it comes time to talk about
how to pay for college, when itcomes time to ultimately apply
to college.
There's something I talk aboutin college in Is Yours 3.
That's called the 20-minutemeeting and that's where,
starting in the second semesterof junior year, parents and
students sit down for 20 minutesevery week and talk about where

(37:20):
the student is with college.
And that's kind of the best ofall worlds because, again, the
student is looking for someindependence here and basically
wants the parents to leave themalone.
You know, and I experiencedthis with my own children where
I was working at the school,where I was their college
counselor, and I'm here to tellyou I saw neither one of them

(37:45):
for any college counseling workin all my time, but that was you
know.
But so they want theirindependence and they need their
independence.
But the parents also need toknow what's going on.
So the happy compromise is seta time Everybody addresses their
college concerns at that pointand then that's the end of it.
We don't talk about college inthe car, we don't talk about

(38:08):
college at the dinner table, wejust do college in 20 minutes.
Everybody has their informationand their assignments and
everybody's not going to killeach other, so the student will
actually get to college.
So it's kind of a win allaround.
So you know, read theinformation, call if you see
something unusual going on withyour child and then just make

(38:29):
sure that you implement yourpart of the team.
That's necessary to make aneffective transition.

I think that that 20 minute meeting is brilliant
because, you know, just makingit into a meeting and not having
it take over your entire lifeis really, you know, gives it a
whole different approach.
That's great.

Yeah, and and you know it's again as we talked
about at the top of the houryou know we all love kids, and
we love kids in part becausethey get so excited about their
futures and they should, becausein many cases they are truly
limitless and at the same time,we also need to make sure that

(39:11):
they're not so busy looking intothe future, that they're not
making the most of senior yearand the opportunities that await
them, because the experiencesthey have senior year will again
help set prepare them for avery successful transition to
college as well, and that's animportant factor to consider.

You know what are your thoughts about students
who have private collegecounselors.
Do you think some studentsbenefit from that, or some or
it's?
Do you think it's necessary ornot?
Or you know there are.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?

Yeah, well, you know, I, I certainly I would
say that, um, I, I know, uh, Ihave done private college
counseling work and I have somewonderful colleagues who are
very supportive as privatecollege counselors for students
who feel like they may need someadditional support that the
school counselor just doesn'thave time to provide.
And as a school counselor it's.

(40:11):
It's a little humbling becauseyou'd like to think that you're
you're the person that they cancount on for every that every
student can count on, foreverything.
You're the person that they cancount on for every that every
student can count on foreverything.
But, as is often the case inlife, it's not so much how I
feel about it, it's how thestudent feels about it.
And if the student is convincedthat they need a little bit of

(40:42):
extra nurturing, I think that'sthat's completely appropriate.
For, for parents who arethinking about making that
commitment, I would just saymake sure that you look very
closely at the services that areprovided and be careful,
because it can get expensive ina hurry.
In fact, about three or fouryears ago, the average cost of
an independent college counselorwas $4,000.
So you know, if you're going tomake that kind of commitment I
think you want to make sure youknow exactly what you're getting

(41:04):
, and then you also need to makesure that there's a good
understanding as to what theschool counselor will do and
won't do in those cases.
There are often schooldistricts that have policies
about when and how schoolcounselors can reach out to
independent counselors, andsometimes it's not.
It's not a terribly generousprogram, but sometimes there are

(41:27):
school districts that say, look, if you want to go that route,
that's fine, but our counselorshave other stuff to do, and so
we're going to work with thekids who need it, and your kid,
obviously, is getting their needmet someplace else.
So that's an important factoras well.

Wow, you do really important work.
I have to say this is reallyimportant stuff.
Way to go.

Well, you know , and what's great is, you know,
again, as we talked about atthe top of the hour, kids are
just great.
And what's great is, you know,again, as we talked about at the
top of the hour, kids are justgreat.
You know, I had a kid, astudent, who came in and we were
having a chat, and when I talkto students about college, I
never ask them where they wantto go to college, because that's
a closed-ended question.
You get a list and that's justnot terribly interesting.

(42:15):
What you try and do is get asense as to why they want to go
to college, but you can't tellthem.
You can't ask them that either,because they've never thought
about it that way.
So so the compromise I came toin my work with kids was I said
well, okay, so what's next?
And what's what's next could be, I want to go to these colleges

(42:36):
.
But the real interesting kidsalways said something else, you
know.
And, and so I had this onestudent who said, well, I want
to study Tigers.
And I said, well, great,because we have an alumni from
the school who's in charge ofthe public relations office for
the Detroit Tigers, that's ourbaseball team here in Michigan.
And and I said we can set youup with an internship.

(42:59):
And he looked at me and he saidyeah, I'm not talking about
those kinds of tigers, this is akid who wanted to work with,
like you know, the real deal.
And I was like, wow, um, so youknow the the, the things that
they come up with in terms ofwhere they want to go and what
they want to do are justfascinating and inspiring in

(43:22):
many respects.

You know, I would hope that a lot of counselors
would ask that kind ofquestioning that get those kind
of creative answers.
We probably should talk aboutsome things besides just the
college counseling but it feels.
but I want to ask a couple moreabout that before we get on to

(43:47):
other things, and one really hasto do with.
So often students do come witha list.
You know, that's where theystart.
I want to go to this school orthis school or this school, and
I have two questions sort ofabout that, and one because I
always take one question andreally make it five questions.

(44:09):
And one is how do you get somestudents to think more broadly
than just?
You know?
These are the top colleges thateverybody hears about,
everybody recognizes the names,but there are hundreds of great
schools out there.
So that's one.
How do you get them to thinkmore broadly, students and

(44:30):
parents?
And the second is what do youdo when you have students and
parents who have differing ideasof where they want?
You know where they want theirstudent to go or where the
student wants to go.

Yeah, that's a great question, Vicki.
Part of the answer is what Icall sort of, you know,
preemptive strike in terms ofbuilding the list.
What many counselors will do aspart of their college
counseling curriculum is,towards the end of the sophomore
year, they'll bring thestudents into the computer

(45:07):
center at their school and havethe students go through a
college search.
And these college searches youcan do it yourself, folks, you
know.
If parents are like well, wheredo I do this?
There's a really nice one onCollege Board.
The College Board website has avery nice college search, and

(45:29):
then there are other places thatalso have them.
This is a, this is a an interestsort of an interest inventory
for college.
It's like well, where do youwant, you know, do you want to
go to in a particular state?
What size are you looking for?
What do you want to major in?
Do you want to participate inathletics?
Does it?
Do you have to be on campus?

(45:50):
Is it four year?
Is it two year?
There's about maybe eight ornine questions that the student
can then answer based on theirown interests.
Questions that the student canthen answer based on their own
interests, and then the programwill say, okay, well, based on
what you've just responded to,here are some colleges you
should look into, and then thecounselor will actually ask the

(46:10):
student to print that out, andthe counselor will put it in the
student's file so that whenthey start talking about
colleges they'll say well, okay,when you did a college search,
these are also the schools thatcame up.
And so the idea here is to tryand sort of shape the list
before the list shapes you andand that's that's can be part of

(46:30):
it in the event that they get alist.
For me, the question is alwayswhat I say is this is great,
tell me more about how youdevelop this.
And my goal is to get back toand every counselor's goal is to
get back to the qualities ofthe learning experience.
What are the qualities that areat that college?
Because you know even thebrightest kid in your school,

(46:56):
you know it Harvard can't takethe brightest kid in every high
school in the United States.
They just don't have room, andso the question isn't whether
they could do the work atHarvard.
They can.
The question is what happens ifHarvard doesn't take you
because they run out of room,which, by the way, is Harvard's
problem, not yours, and that'sthat I underline in bold.

(47:19):
You know what's the number onereason Harvard turns down a kid?
It's because they run out ofroom.
It has nothing to do with thestudent.
And in fact somebody at Harvardonce an admissions officer at
Harvard once said, if every kidwe admitted said no and we had
to take the next group of kids,they'd be just as good.

(47:40):
So for me the question is okayin the event that Harvard runs
out of room where are we goingto go that has the qualities
you're looking for in a Harvard,in a Yale, in a Princeton, and
that's where we can begin toexpand the list to include
colleges where your chances ofgetting admitted numerically are
much better.
And so you know.

(48:02):
Basically, you use the list asyour friend and you don't say,
well, you can't get in therebecause you don't know that, but
instead you use it as anopportunity for growth.

So I'm just trying to steer in in in other.
It's just a general question.
And then I want to hear alittle bit more about college is
yours and and your book.
But, um, you, you work withtoday's students all the time,

(48:37):
uh, and, and students today area little different than they
were pre-COVID and were a fewyears ago.
I mean, their students areconstantly changing.
What do you see as the greateststrengths and maybe the
greatest challenges for today'shigh school students?

Oh gosh, that's a great question.

Sorry.

Well, you know , I think certainly you know
what has been the case for yearsis still the case today in that
the students aretechnologically way past all of
us.
I mean, these students have anunderstanding about
technological issues that arereally just rather astounding.

(49:25):
And to me that's a real plus,because you know, when I first
started in the profession, lo,those many years ago, if a
student wanted to apply to eightdifferent colleges, they had to
fill out eight different forms.
Well, now, thanks to technology, they can actually fill out 75%

(49:46):
of one application and send itto those eight schools, and then
the schools will say, oh,that's great, you're three
quarters of the way here.
Now, you just got to write anessay about this, right.
So the students really takeadvantage of that immensely.
They are socially very savvy.
Social media has made them verysavvy, and they are able to

(50:09):
explore colleges on social mediain ways I don't know that I
could, quite honestly.
So I think that's an advantage.
I think the downside is thatbecause so many of them are so
eager to grow up and apply tocollege, they sometimes go
through the process withoutreally giving it full

(50:30):
consideration as to what they'redoing and why they want to do
what they do, and because thereare so many colleges that are so
popular that students are nowapplying in September of the
senior year.
You know, they used to apply tothose schools in January of the
senior year, which gave me fourmore months to have
conversations with them aboutwhat are we looking for, what's

(50:53):
the goal?
And those four months are gonenow.
So and so to me, that'sprobably the biggest challenge.

So tell us a little bit more about so you
have the book, college is Yours3.
There must be a one and two.

Yes.

And the work that you do in College is Yours, your
organization.

Yeah, basically, the College is Yours
3, I basically, believe it ornot, I actually didn't write it
for students, I actually wroteit for, for, for counselors,
because I what I really wantedto do was put every uh, I took
every question that studentsasked that were sort of nuts and

(51:44):
bolts, basic questions, and andanswered them and and and.
Each quote unquote chapter isabout 600 words.
So you know, given the shortattention spans that our
students sometimes, that socialmedia sometimes gives our
students, the whole goal is thatthey can, if they want to know

(52:06):
what they should do in terms ofa college essay, they can pull
up the chapter on college essays, spend 90 seconds reading the
chapter and saying, okay, got it, and then go apply it.
And so the whole idea is, ifthey have college is yours three
at their side, they can usethat for the initial ground
rules of applying to college andthen, when they have more

(52:29):
specific questions, that's whenthey can go to their counselor.
So in some ways, college IsYours is designed for students
who have overworked counselors,but it's also designed to
prevent counselors from beingoverworked so that they don't
have to give the ground rules to900 kids, but instead I do that

(52:51):
for them.
And then the student thenapproaches and says well, okay,
I read the thing about essays.
Here's my first draft.
What do you think?
That kind of thing, and sothat's really what the book is
all about.

And so if that sounds like a good idea to
parents and you know I'd like togive this to my student how can
they find it on your website?
How do they get a hold of that?

book.
Yeah, actually it's on Amazon,okay and there.
And then there is actually forparents who are real eager
beavers and want to get a grouptogether.
There's actually a groupdiscount for 10 or more at
outskirtspresscom and if folkswant to find out about that,
they can obviously email me atcollegesyoursatcomcastnet.

(53:45):
I'd be happy to talk about that.
But, yeah, it's on Amazon andit'll get to you tomorrow, so
it's just right there.

We will put all of those contacts in the show
notes.

I'll be in the show notes, that'd be great.

So, yeah, the last two more, and then we really do
have to quit.
We get going.
We could keep going, going,going.
So is there any kind of lastword that you would give to
parents in terms of just thiswhole process, in terms of

(54:22):
everything that counselors do,the social, emotional, the
academic, the college and careersearch Bottom line?
What would you like to say toparents?

Well, I think you know, I think, when I talk
to school counselors about therole that parents play, again,
the key there is everybody wantsa thoughtful, engaged,
independent child at the end ofthis who's ready to take the

(54:54):
world on on their own.
And so I think, if you keepthat uppermost in mind, that's
key.
Now.
That's not always easy andthere will be times where you're
going to want to, you know,walk into the counselor's office
without an appointment andinsist that whatever's wrong
with your child gets fixed rightnow, because you're their

(55:15):
parent and advocating for themis your job.
But and certainly there aretimes that merit that.
But I would just say you know,be as thoughtful as you can
Understand that many counselorsare looking at, as you can
Understand that many counselorsare looking at remarkable
caseloads and remarkablechallenges to meet those

(55:36):
caseloads.
And so, you know, do what youcan to be thoughtful and
respectful of the counselor'stime while still advocating for
your child.
And if you keep that uppermostin mind, I think everybody ends
up winning.

Great, great message, yeah.
And then the last thing,because we're readers and we
always sort of like to.

That was going to be my last.

Yep Go ahead.

Lynn ask the question.
Well, just, we are readers andso, in addition to the books
that you have written, we wantto know if you can recommend any
other books for parents thatwould be helpful to them at this
point.

Oh, gosh Boy, yeah, that's a great question.
Well, I would say that you know,certainly in terms of the
process, there's a fellow outthere by the name of Rick Clark
who is the director ofadmissions at Georgia Tech, and

(56:34):
Rick has does some verythoughtful blog work, but also
has written a mighty finecollege guide as well, and so
parents might want to take alook at that, I think would be
very important.
And then you know, in terms ofsort of a more general step and

(56:56):
you know this is sometimes areference that parents don't
appreciate but there was afellow a long time ago who wrote
a book called Guiding theGifted Child, and, and as I read
the book, I looked at it andsaid, well, I don't understand
why this guy is talking aboutgifted kids, because his advice

(57:17):
works for everybody, and, and sohis name was James Webb, a real
thoughtful guy.
That book is no longer in print, so you probably have to find
it in your library.
Is no longer in print, so youprobably have to find it in your
library, but if you find it, itreally provides a nice

(57:37):
narrative for how to guide yourkids through the growth process.

Great, we're going to post these also in the
show notes.

Yeah, and then also for folks who are looking
for a real quick summary of thecollege selection process, I'll
send you an email.
I wrote a column on High SchoolCounselor Week, called Applying
to College, in 600 Words orLess, and it's sort of a
comprehensive overview of thecollege selection process.

(58:04):
So I'll shoot that over to you,and if you could post that, I
think that folks would beinterested in that as well.

Great.
We always like to leave peoplewith some references and some
next steps.
So, oh my goodness, so muchgood information from a world.
You know we talk a lot aboutcollege and that's our world as
college professors, but it'sbeen a while since I even had a

(58:31):
child of my own in high schooland I know things have changed.
So this is such valuableinformation in terms of what
happens before they get tocollege.
So, patrick O'Connor, thank youso much for sharing so much
information, and we're going toput College is Yours in the show

(58:53):
notes.
Hopefully some people willreach out, as well as your
contact information.
So thanks so much for takingtime to talk with us today.

Great.
Linda and Vicki, thanks againfor the opportunity and thank
you for all the work you'redoing.
I'm sure that parents arereally appreciating all the
information you're giving themon a regular basis, so keep up
the good work.

We all need all the help we can get.
Absolutely Thanks so much.

Announcer (59:19):
Yeah, take care.

Bye-bye.

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#120 – Partnering with Your Student’s High School Counselor

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#120 – Partnering with Your Student’s High School Counselor