November 20, 2024 • 41 mins
We were excited to have a chance to talk to Lindsey Cormack for this podcast episode. Lindsey is the author of the book How to Raise a Citizen (and why it’s up to you to do it.) Most of us don’t spend much time thinking about how our students learn about how the government works, how government affects our lives, how to register to vote, and why it matters. In our conversation, Lindsey helped us understand why schools often avoid teaching civics, and she helped us learn how parents can approach these topics with their kids – even their grown-up kids! Lindsey is clearly passionate about the importance of this topic (you’ll hear that in her voice) and her enthusiasm is contagious – especially as she explained how raising a citizen can give us hope. This episode will fuel your interest in learning more about government along with your student.
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts, vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration ofthe amazing child in college.
Lynn Abrahams (00:47):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast
and our role in parenting as ourkids move from high school,
through college and out ofcollege.
My name is Lynn Abrahams and Iam a learning disability
specialist.
I have worked with collegestudents my entire career,
(01:10):
working with students and theirfamilies.
I also come to this as a parent.
I have two sons who have beento college in out around through
.
They did it their owninteresting ways, college in out
around through.
They did it their owninteresting ways and I've
parented them through that.
(01:30):
So we talk about this from botha professional and a personal
place.
I'm here today with my friendand my colleague, vicki Nelson,
and another guest, but I'll lether introduce herself.
Vicki Nelson (01:45):
Okay, I will start with me.
I'm Vicki Nelson and I am acollege professor of
communication.
I am also the parent of threedaughters, who have all gone to
college and come out the otherside, and we've all survived the
situation.
Lynn has the boys, I have thegirls, and so I also am always
(02:10):
thinking in terms of bothprofessionally and what I see in
the classroom, what I see in mystudents, and also my
experiences with my girls.
But we are, as Lynn mentioned,we are not by ourselves today.
We're very excited about theguest that we have with us today
and this is a very timelyconversation.
We're excited to be joined todayby Lindsay Cormack, who is the
(02:32):
author of the book how to Raisea Citizen and why it's Up to you
to Do it.
She's also an associateprofessor of political science
and director of the DiplomacyLab at Stevens Institute of
Technology in Hoboken, newJersey.
She has a PhD in governmentfrom New York University and is
(02:54):
also raising a daughter in NewYork.
So, like us, I guess Lindsay islooking both from the
professional and the parentalstandpoint.
Lindsay also created andmaintains a digital database of
all official Congress toConstituent e-newsletters in the
DC Inbox Project, which has tobe a fascinating collection of
(03:18):
material, I can only imagine.
Lindsay's work has beenpublished in all sorts of
scholarly publications, but alsoin places like the New York
Times, the Washington Post,propublica, the New York Post,
nbc News, cbs News, fox News andso many more publications and
media outlets, and we are sohonored and so excited to have
(03:42):
Lindsay here with us today,post-election, to talk about
raising a citizen.
Lindsay, welcome to the CollegeParent Central podcast.
Lindsey Cormack (03:52):
Thank you for having me.
I'm looking forward to talkingwith you both.
Thank you.
Vicki Nelson (03:56):
We want to learn all about what we should be
doing with our kids.
So to start, your book istitled how to Raise a Citizen
and you say at one point in thebook that raising a citizen is
not the same as raising apartisan.
Can you sort of set the stagefor us and talk a little bit
(04:17):
about what you mean by citizenin this context?
Lindsey Cormack (04:21):
Sure.
So I think there's two thingshere.
When I use the term citizen,I'm not referring to it in like
an exclusive legal marker, likeyou're entitled to these rights
and not those.
I'm referring to it in a farmore general sense.
I think about being a citizenas being a member of a community
, contributing to our sharedlife and understanding the
government apparatus that we'reoperating under.
(04:41):
In order to change it, when Italk about people as raising a
citizen or a partisan, I thinkit's best to describe it with an
analogy about raising anathlete versus raising a
spectator.
So if you were trying to raisesomeone who understood how to
play soccer, you would teachthem the rules of the game, you
would do practice drills withthem, you would maybe have them
scrimmage and they would learnto hone the muscle memory that
(05:03):
it takes to sort of besuccessful in that sport.
If you were teaching them tojust be a spectator, you might
say here's all the chants andthe songs that we sing from the
sidelines, here's the colors wepaint our faces, here's the
people we cheer really loudlyfor, here's the ones that we
don't like at all.
But in politics we don't reallyhave the option of being a
spectator.
We're really all athletes.
(05:24):
We're raising children who aregoing to be on that playing
field whether they like it ornot, and so the way that you
sort of get the politics thatyou want or the government
outcomes that you desire is bybeing a better athlete, being a
better citizen.
Partisanship is more aboutwhich team you're going to cheer
for, which side you get excitedfor if they happen to have a
victory, and so it's related toit, but it's not the same, and
(05:45):
we'd all do better to thinkabout ourselves as raising
citizen athletes versus partisanspectators.
Vicki Nelson (05:52):
That analogy makes so much sense.
It's so clear.
Thank you for that.
Lynn Abrahams (05:58):
I love that analogy.
You know one of the things Ithink about.
I feel like I never did a verygood job with my kids in terms
of talking about politics, andone thing I really love about
this book is that you give it'ssort of a guide to how to have
these conversations.
So why do you think we, asparents, don't do such a good
(06:22):
job with this?
Lindsey Cormack (06:24):
We as parents don't do such a good job with
this.
Well, I'm glad you brought thatup, because I don't think about
this book as like a fingerscoldy book where I'm saying
like, oh, we're not doing this.
It's like most of us grew up insystems that had a few
institutional failures that madeit hard for us to hone this
skill.
It really depends on what sortof part of the country you grew
up in or sort of like yourfamily culture.
But there's two big things thatoperate in a lot of parts of
(06:50):
the United States.
One is the idea that politics isan off limits topic, like it
sits in a taboo basket withthings like talking about how
much money someone makes ortheir religious beliefs or maybe
sexual identity, and so it'slike not considered a polite
conversation.
It's one that a lot of childrenjust don't have because their
parents, their families, don'tdo that.
But then in other parts of thecountry we have this sort of
idea that all politics is awfuland negative and bad, and so our
(07:11):
kids hear things like you know,everyone who's in it's corrupt,
they're liars, it's rigged,they're egomaniacs, they're in
it for themselves, and so ifthose are the two sorts of
messages we get in our homeenvironments.
It's not surprising that mostof us don't know how to do this,
because we're eitherunderpracticed or we really just
have a view that's all bad anddoom and gloom.
And so if those things exist inour family cultures, coincident
(07:33):
with schools who are activelydeprioritizing civics, it's not
surprising that a lot of us feellike we can't do this because
we haven't had practice and wehaven't been socialized to do it
that well, haven't had practiceand we haven't been socialized
to do it that well.
Lynn Abrahams (07:45):
You know.
You give a statistic in yourbook that was surprising to me
and that's that let's see in2020, only 25% of 18 to
24-year-olds reported havingpolitical discussions with their
parents.
Lindsey Cormack (08:05):
That's really dramatic.
Go ahead.
Yeah, that is dramatic, butit's something that I think was
borne out in the way that I sortof understand my students in
the classroom and this was froma really large nationally
representative survey, and soit's something where I know that
it's not just the kids that Iget, it's kind of everywhere in
the United States.
Most of our children aregetting through childhood never
having had intentionalconversations about what it
(08:26):
means to be a citizen or what itmeans to understand their
politics.
Lynn Abrahams (08:30):
You mentioned also that this is a way to move
from protecting our kids topreparing our kids.
Can you talk a little moreabout that?
Lindsey Cormack (08:40):
Yeah.
So something that I hear a lotfrom parents is, you know, like
well, I want them to have achildhood.
I don't want them to have tothink about these bigger things.
It's scary out there.
Politics is complicated and Iget that for some of our more
fearsome topics.
If we're thinking about, youknow, international relations,
or if we're thinking about war,activities that could be really
daunting for young kids and thatmight not be something you want
(09:01):
to do and that might not besomething you want to do, but
there is a time in which yourkids are getting ready to leave
your house and if you don'tequip them with this knowledge,
we know that they might not getit.
A lot of our K-12 schools justsimply don't give enough time to
this subject so that studentsare adequately prepared, and
unless they have to take apolitical science class in
college, they may never haveanother intentional time in
(09:21):
which they can work throughthese questions because they're
on their own.
Have another intentional timein which they can work through
these questions because they'reon their own.
Vicki Nelson (09:26):
I really like that you use that idea of preparing,
protecting to preparing.
We talk so much on this podcastabout preparing students for
college, preparing them and whatthey need to do to be able to
handle things on their own.
So this fits right into what atleast what we think parents
(09:48):
need to hear that the job isreally to get them ready.
You mentioned K-12, and youemphasize a lot in your book
about starting theseconversations early, that we
need to start at the level thatkids are, when they're young,
(10:08):
and bring the conversations in.
A lot of the listeners that wehave for this podcast are sort
of past that stage with theirhigh school parents, their
parents of students who arealready in college.
So my question then is is ittoo late?
Will kids of that age evenlisten to what parents have to
(10:32):
say, and how do we really needto talk to them as adults?
How do we?
How do we do that if we haven'tbuilt up to this before now?
Lindsey Cormack (10:43):
Yeah, so I never think of these as too
early or too late conversations.
You know, as long as you have achild in your life, whether
they be four or 40, you can havea relationship with them that
touches on politics, you can getinto these discussions with
them, and so for people who havehigh schoolers who haven't yet
left, or these young collegestudents who maybe haven't had
(11:03):
an opportunity to vote yet,there's time to do really good
work, and what I say in the bookis I think there's five sort of
things that those kids at thatage need to know in order to be
able to navigate the system beston their own, and I'll give it
to you sort of quickly.
The first thing is they need toknow how to register to vote,
and a lot of times, parentsthink this is going to happen in
(11:24):
the schools.
They'll teach them, but we knowthat in 2022, the last federal
election that we had only alittle bit more than a quarter
of our 18 year olds wereregistered to vote and ready to
prepare in that election.
So it's something where, whenwe think about why that is part
of it is, it's kind of tricky.
You have to have your socialsecurity number to register to
vote and many 16-year-olds don'tknow where their card is like.
Maybe mom or dad has it in anenvelope somewhere, and so they
(11:45):
just don't have this basicinformation that they need to do
it.
The second thing is a lot of theteachers that we interviewed in
talking to this book said wedon't really teach about the
primary election system.
You know they'll talk about thegeneral elections and they
might talk about thepresidential primary, but for so
much of our politics thepivotal election is that early
one that happens when you'repicking who's going to be the
(12:06):
Democratic nominee or who'sgoing to be the Republican
nominee.
So parents, if they really wanttheir kids to understand their
politics around them the stateand local level especially, it's
talking about primary elections.
The third is that our kids needto understand at least read the
constitution once, and I knowthat that sounds really hard to
a lot of parents, like I'm notgoing to sit down and quiz my
kids on 19 pages of theconstitution and that's not my
(12:28):
goal.
But my goal is that in thecourse of the 18 years you have
with them, make sure you haveopportunities to do it and, if
you haven't done it yourself asa parent, something that you can
brush up on too and, likechapter seven of the book, is
just like here's questions youcan ask while you do that.
Here's how you can make itrelevant to their lives.
They also need to know whatfederalism is.
This is something else intalking to teachers, where I
said here's something that wedon't quite impart in the way
(12:49):
that we wanted to, which issimply, local government does
different things than stategovernment does different things
than federal government, andsometimes there's overlap.
And then this final piece, whichyou can do at any age, is
practice having hardconversations and show them what
that looks like, becausesomething that I see in my
classroom and I imagine you seeit in yours as a communications
person is that a lot of collegestudents are very uncomfortable
(13:13):
with the idea of themselvesbeing uncomfortable or making
someone else experiencediscomfort, even in conversation
, and we know that politics isgoing to have discomfort, so we
have to practice that.
We have to do that in a settinglike a house.
Now, whether or not your kidsare going to listen to you,
you're going to know them betterthan I, but I will say
something that I find, andsomething that I find with other
(13:34):
practitioners in this area issometimes the best place to do
this is when you're on a commute, when you're in a car side by
side or when you're walking sideby side, so you're not, you
know, looking each other in theeye, but you can sort of have
these conversations without thatintensity.
That tends to be something thatworks better with those kids
who maybe just don't want to sitdown across the table from mom
or dad and have these sorts ofhard conversations want to sit
(13:56):
down across the table from momor dad and have these sorts of
hard conversations.
Vicki Nelson (14:03):
There's so much in what you.
You know everything as you gotthrough that list.
You know, and it occurred to meas I read the book and again
now as you're talking about it Ihave three daughters and
they're all grown now familiesof their own.
I cannot remember how theyregistered to vote.
I know they did, I know theyvote, but I don't remember
teaching them.
I don't remember taking them.
(14:24):
I don't know whether ithappened in the schools.
It's a mystery to me and that's.
The fact that I just can'tremember that process at all
with any of the three of them isreally shocking.
Lindsey Cormack (14:38):
That might be a fun conversation for you to
have with them, be like how didyou figure this out?
Or where did you do this, orwhen?
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (14:43):
That's going to be one conversation at
Thanksgiving and this is comingout just before Thanksgiving and
so I want to sort of take alittle detour here because you
know you talk about practicinghaving those conversations and
there will be hard conversations.
Thanksgiving is coming up andyou know, for a lot of families
(15:06):
who are going to be sittingaround the Thanksgiving turkey,
the families may not all agreeon everything.
Do you have any suggestions andI'm springing this on you, but
do you have any suggestions forhow we can have conversations
(15:27):
around that Thanksgiving tableand how we can include our kids
in those conversations in acivil sort of way?
Lindsey Cormack (15:35):
Yeah.
So I send all my collegestudents out to have
conversations and I give them alittle sample script to start
from, because I know that it canbe really daunting to do this,
and I ask them to talk to twopeople that they're going to see
over Thanksgiving and sayhere's these sets of questions
that I want you to ask them andI sort of like that they can say
my teacher said we have to andthen they have to have the
(15:56):
political conversation, but thestarter question that I always
use, no matter the context here,is what have you heard about
that?
And the reason that I like whathave you heard as the first
question versus what do youthink or what's your opinion, is
that the person who's answeringthat is not responsible for
justifying something orconvincing you that they're
(16:18):
right or wrong.
They're just sort of likesetting the table with what have
I heard and that can be, youknow, I saw it on Instagram or I
read it in the paper orso-and-so said it in school or
whatever and just saying whathave you heard, so that we all
sort of understand where ourstarting points are.
And when you go into aconversation like that, I think
it's also important to sort oflevel set with yourself and with
(16:39):
others.
We're not going to convinceother people that we are correct
.
We're usually not convincedthat we are incorrect, and so
the real exercise here is whatcan I learn about this person in
terms of how they got frompoint A to point B or why they
maybe preferred this candidateor that candidate, not?
How can I show them they werewrong for picking that candidate
, or how can I show them I wasright for doing this.
(17:00):
It's more understanding thatyou're learning about someone
else versus convincing them, andvice versa.
Vicki Nelson (17:06):
That's really really good advice and some
practical things that they canthink about and do to get
through the holiday.
Lynn Abrahams (17:24):
You know, one of the aha moments I had reading
your book was that there's adifference between talking about
sort of emotional stuff likewho did you vote for and why,
and what's democracy or what'syou know?
You know some of the just plaininformation about how our
government works and I thinkwhen my kids were young I did
assume the school was going todo that and and they don't do
(17:47):
that, so that that was an ahamoment for me, that oh my
goodness, I they're not doing it.
And then the other aha was Ican do it in a way like more
like a teacher than as aemotional.
You know you should vote, youknow Democratic or Republican.
So so this book really waseye-opening for me.
(18:12):
So let me go back.
There's no question in there.
I was just talking.
Lindsey Cormack (18:24):
First of all, the one question is just why is
it that schools don't do this?
Lynn Abrahams (18:26):
anymore.
That's a really hard question.
Do you have another one?
You said one, no, no, go ahead,we'll just stick with that one
for now.
Lindsey Cormack (18:29):
Okay.
So there's a lot of reasons andI kind of get into this and you
know I had six researchassistants sort of help me do
all these interviews and look atsort of the data on time in the
classroom that we give tocivics and money that's
dedicated to civics.
But it sort of boils down to wedo it a little bit too little,
too late, and one of the reasonsfor that is because the
teaching environment in Kthrough 12 is really constrained
(18:50):
, and what I mean by that is,you know, with every other
subject math, science,literature we scaffold from K
through 12.
We like start with little vocab, we build into harder concepts,
we let kids wrestle with things, maybe advocacy, but throughout
the United States there's not astandardized curriculum on
civics.
Every state gets to do it theirown way.
States further devolve thatdown to school boards.
(19:11):
Depends on, if you're like,independent schools, public
schools, religious schools theyall have different approaches.
But there's a modal form ofdelivery which is usually in
seventh or eighth grade.
That's the first time studentstouch something.
That's usually like US history,or sometimes it's called world
history, and it's sort of thisumbrella social studies class,
and then we mostly wait againuntil your second semester, your
senior year of high school, andteach you a government class,
(19:34):
which is like voting somefounding father stuff, a few
primary documents, westwardexpansion, the end, and so we
really don't have enough time todo this.
If that's sort of the method ofdelivery, because it's
complicated, it's an intricatesystem, there's a long history,
there's contemporaneous things,there's stuff to think about in
the future, it's just too muchto do in a year and a half,
which is how most students getit in a year and a half, which
(19:58):
is how most students get it.
But it's also something where wedo not prioritize the training
of social studies teachers, theemployment of social studies
teachers.
And a joke that we heardrepeatedly was you all know who
teaches AP government, his nameis coach, and that's because a
lot of our social studiesteachers are not employed on
full-time contracts unless theyalso do something like coach
swimming or track or football,and so there's sort of this
prioritization where thoseteachers, those professions,
(20:20):
aren't as in demand as thescience, the English, the math.
And that's also related to thethird point, which is our
obsession with ACT and SATscores means that if it's not
tested, it's not taught, or itis the easiest first thing to
get squeezed out of a curriculumIf you say you know, we got to
get this stuff before they getto those college entrance exam
and there's no component ofsocial studies on either of
(20:42):
those exams.
There is a move in the SAT tohave some of the reading
assessments have some like USprimary documents that they're
reading.
So there is a little bit of apush that's coming back.
But not since 1987, when theSAT, when the ACT excuse me took
(21:03):
out social studies, have we hadany sort of you know, end of
the high school experience teston this.
So it's just not something thathappens.
And then, finally, it's reallyhard to do this work.
A lot of the teachers weinterviewed, because parents
themselves make the classroomenvironment one that's a little
bit more fraught, even ifteachers are trying to give a
very straightforward lesson,like there's three branches of
government and the Congress isthe first branch because it's
(21:24):
Article I of the Constitution,it's supposed to be more
powerful.
If a student comes home andtells their parent, oh, I
learned this and you know, firstbranch, that parent might hear
oh, your teacher doesn't likethe president and I don't like
that, and they inflame aFacebook group or email a
principal or administrators oreven badger, the teacher
themselves.
And so they nearly everyone wetalked to was like yeah, we're
getting a lot more parental sortof like pushback or fear that
(21:47):
if we talk about these things.
Brainwashing or indoctrinatingis the words that people throw
around, and so their incentivesmake it such that you know it
doesn't feel good to wade intosomething, even if they really
want your kids to learn this orthey know they should.
If they're going to getblowback on the other side, it
makes it like a less desirablething to do.
And so schools are just K-12.
(22:08):
Schools are a really hardenvironment to get all this done
for like time constraints orthe sorts of ways that teachers
operate in the classroom and forthe ways that we sort of test.
Overall, it's a hard place todo it.
Lynn Abrahams (22:20):
So if schools aren't doing it, then that means
that we should do it as parents.
What are the consequences of itnot happening, which is what
happens, I think, For a wholegeneration?
Lindsey Cormack (22:33):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, when we look at thenation's report card assessment
on civics, which weighs in ateighth grade, we have the same
test scores now in 2024 as wehad in 1998, which means for a
very long time we have notimproved in the way that we are
teaching civics or at least inthe way that our students are
understanding it.
If you sum all these together,only 23% of our eighth graders
(22:57):
have what's considered aproficient understanding of
civics at eighth grade.
So if we are graduating a bunchof students who just do not
know the systems that they'regetting into, they're less
likely to participate becausethey don't know how to pull the
levers of power or exercise itthemselves.
They're less likely to trustthe systems, because how can you
trust something if you don'tknow anything about it?
That's like a really big askfor people.
(23:17):
They're more prone to takingpositions that look like
apathetic, like I don't care, itdoesn't matter, it's a big
system, I'm a little person andwe've seen it worse.
That sort of like mistrustenvironment can lead to
political violence or the ideathat you're like on the outside
of a system, versus how I kindof see this, which is you know,
governments have problemseverywhere.
There's different styles ofgoverning that are better or
(23:38):
worse, and say what you willabout the United States, we have
one of the best decision-makingstyles of governance ever.
We have a collectivedecision-making where we can
change our outcomes.
That's something to becelebrated, not something to
like hide from our kids and makesure they can't figure it out
until they learn it on their own.
But we really aren't doing thatand the risks are we have, you
know, people who are disaffectedby politics, don't believe in
(23:59):
the system, don't want to getinvolved, and nothing gets
better if people are feelingthat way.
Stuff gets better if we valueit, if we have attention and
we're trying to make it better,and we can't do that if we don't
know about it.
Lynn Abrahams (24:09):
That is so huge.
Lindsey Cormack (24:12):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (24:12):
And you know, as you're talking about this,
really generation that doesn'thave the background that they
need.
Is that part of why theseyounger voters are the least
likely to vote?
I mean, I'm old enough.
I remember when you had to be21 to vote and we fought, fought
(24:36):
, fought to bring it down to 18.
But now you have that age groupthat is less likely to turn out
and vote in an election.
Where does that come from?
Lindsey Cormack (24:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.
They are the least likely toturn out.
18 to 24 routinely has thelowest levels of registration
and, in turn, the lowest levelsof voter turnout.
But when we think about, youknow, some of the big political
voices, my students will saystuff to me like why is everyone
in politics so old?
And I'll say, well, let's go doan analysis of who participates
in voting, let's see if thatmatches up with the sort of
(25:11):
outcomes that we get.
And on average it does.
Voters tend to be older peoplewho understand when to show up,
how to register, if they'regoing to turn out for a primary
or general election.
And it's not fair.
I don't think to say like, yeah, you guys are eligible to do
this, but we're not going totell you the rules or how it
happens or what day or when youturn in the paper, and so they
don't get outcomes.
They like they get frustratedand that's not really their
(25:33):
fault.
There's not a button that turnson when you're 18.
That's like oh, here's all theinformation.
We have to do this work withthem if we want them to be able
to participate.
Lynn Abrahams (25:41):
Oh, I so agree with that yeah, yeah.
Vicki Nelson (25:45):
So If we're convinced we understand why the
schools aren't doing whatthey're doing, we may not be
happy with it, but we understandthat it's not happening in the
schools and we understand moreof it than if we want to raise
citizens falls to us as parents.
(26:07):
What about those of us who sayI get this and it's really
important and I want to do thisfor my kids, but I don't know
enough myself when?
Lynn Abrahams (26:23):
do we start the second half of this book?
Vicki Nelson (26:31):
Well, yes, I love the way you snuck that into the
book there.
Yeah.
Lindsey Cormack (26:37):
Thank you, so yeah, so I mean, I guess I'll
just say the setup.
The first part is like here'sthe problem, here's how we can
fix.
And the second part is like andif you feel like you don't know
enough, here's a little primerto get you started and go on
your merry way.
The first thing I'll say is youknow, a lot of schools aren't
doing this that well.
There are some bright spots, soyou might make sure that you
just like check in and see howyour kids are learning before
you say like I got to do it allmyself.
(26:58):
But I also think that there'stwo sorts of answers to this
Like I don't know enough and Ihear this a lot more from moms
than I do, from dads wherethey'll say like I don't know
enough and I don't want to leadthem astray, or I don't know
enough and I don't want tounduly influence them.
The first response I sort ofhave to that is that is not the
way that we want to prepare ourkids for anything.
(27:18):
We want to show them what is it, a model to learn more.
So if you feel like you don'tknow enough and you want to have
a conversation with them, theydon't need you to be government
trivia experts.
They need you to show them whatit is, when you have
uncertainty, to go seek moreinformation and figure that out.
And so that's like such abetter way to approach this,
versus saying I don't know,guess we're never gonna learn,
(27:39):
or guess I can't do that.
But the second thing is thereare some organizations that
parents who want their schoolsto have an easier go of doing
this and aren't gonna be able tohire social studies teachers
there are some really neatexperiential civics things that
some parents can demand thattheir school sort of implements.
Something like we the People,which is a national competition
where kids you know they thinkabout foundational documents and
(28:01):
arguments at the time of theframing and say like, okay,
here's how we're going to lookat these things.
Or things like the Civics Bee,which has like a cash prize for
winning it and people can enteraround the world prize for
winning it and people can enteraround the world.
So it's something where thereare sort of other things that
you can push your kids or yourschools to think about.
But I don't think you shouldsay, well, I don't know, so it's
off my plate, because that'snot good enough.
We are the parents in the roomright now and if we don't like
(28:22):
the way our politics is feelingor functioning, it's up to us to
try to do something different.
And I think that somethingdifferent is being willing to
learn a little bit more and showour kids that it matters that
we learn more that we understandthese systems.
That way we get outcomes thatwe like.
Vicki Nelson (28:35):
So we learn it together With them In that way.
Lindsey Cormack (28:39):
So much, and that's something where I think
most of the people who I talk towho have read this book they'll
say like, oh, I think actuallyit's raising me a little bit too
, like talking to my kids, andI'm like, yeah, because a lot of
us were really underserved withthe schooling that we got, with
the orientation that ourparents and families might have
had, and so there's something todo.
You're not just teaching yourkids, you know this, they're
(29:02):
going to teach you.
Vicki Nelson (29:02):
That happens with everything, and so it's like a
good feedback loop to have withthem and we'll put those
organizations in the show notesand that might be a help.
But just to follow up a littlebit you mentioned there are some
bright spots and so that meansin some places some people are
doing it right.
(29:22):
Are there things?
You mentioned theseorganizations but are there
things that parents can do tolobby or encourage schools to do
more with this?
Lindsey Cormack (29:37):
I mean there absolutely are, and there's
models of this happeningthroughout the United States.
In Rhode Island, their stateconstitution sort of guarantees
that people will have aneducation that allows them to
understand their systems.
And when some students were like, well, that's not what we're
experiencing now, students andparents banded together to
actually file lawsuits to sayyou have to do more, you have to
give us a better education onthis front, and that's not to
(29:59):
say I think everyone should gothrough their schools, but it is
something to say if you have aproblem and you feel like you
know I want to solve this in myhome, but it'd be easier if we
had more eyes on this, morebrains on this.
It doesn't hurt to talk to aprincipal, to a school
administrator, to a teacher andsay how can we do more of this?
And you know they might havesome ideas, but they're really
afraid that parents aren't goingto like it.
(30:19):
We just need more on this, notthe idea that, like you know, I
have to do it alone.
It's not a book that saysschools can't do this.
It's actually probablysymbiotic, but we all sort of
have to start somewhere.
Lynn Abrahams (30:32):
What about students who feel like they have
no voice in government and theyfeel like or their voice
doesn't matter?
How could they, as a parent,how could I get my kids involved
to know that they can have avoice, maybe in local politics?
Lindsey Cormack (30:54):
I hear that a lot and it's, you know, to a
certain degree true at a lot offederal level stuff where you
say, you know, I likereproductive rights or access or
restrictions on guns or theability to have legalized
marijuana, these sorts of likequality of life topics.
(31:21):
A lot of that happens at thestate level and then a lot of it
gets implemented at the locallevel.
And that's places wherechildren and individuals are far
more pivotal, because there arefewer people in that electorate
and it oftentimes takes just afew thousand to win an election,
and so if you can sort of makesure that you figure out what
the things are that they careabout, does that really happen
(31:41):
at the state level or federallevel?
A lot of it's state.
Is there something that's alocal initiative that would make
their life better?
Then they can really be pivotal.
And even if it's not just I'mone vote, it can be.
I'm a voice that amplifiesothers.
I'm doing art for change, I'morganizing something, I have a
social media campaign.
There are a lot of outsizedways that you can get attention,
especially in those smallerforms of government.
Vicki Nelson (32:04):
So that makes me starting locally is at a scale
that students sometimes canhandle it and it makes sense.
And a lot of what you're sayingis making me think.
You said somewhere in the bookthat you know understanding how
government works contributes tomore to positive mental health
(32:26):
for students, and if ever therewas a time when we were
concerned about students andanxiety and mental health, this
is it, and so is that becausethat it can contribute to
positive mental health, becausethey feel that they can take
action and can do something.
Lindsey Cormack (32:45):
Well, what you're pointing out is like yes,
that you know there's a lot ofchallenges with our kids feeling
anxiety or depression orloneliness or isolation.
And sort of understanding whatrole you play in our political
system, versus being like thisamorphous thing that just has to
like go with whatever politicalwins, is a way to sort of like
root or ground our children.
It allows them to self advocatebetter because if they
understand you know this isn'tworking for me or I want to
(33:07):
change, but I know how to dothis then I can understand which
levers to pull on to get anoutcome.
It also means that some of thestuff that you may be hearing in
media spaces that are meant tolike scare you or make you
afraid of something.
If you understand the groundlevel of things, you might not
be as influenced bymisinformation or disinformation
(33:27):
because you're like I don'tactually think it's going to be
that scary.
I don't think that's possible.
I think there's some likeguidelines or guardrails in our
politics that make that notpossible.
But at the local level, there'sthis additional benefit, which
is local.
Politics is so personallysocial and so it, like it, you
know, lives on the repeatedinteraction of individuals
(33:49):
coming together for a sharedpurpose, and so you have this
sort of like community buildingthat's baked into doing local
politics, and so that's a wayfor kids who are like confused
or think they're beingmanipulated, to like see it
themselves, do it themselves andbe like oh no, I actually
understand how this happens andI have agency in this system and
I can change it.
That's really helpful.
Lynn Abrahams (34:09):
I think this book is not just for young, I mean
adults.
This is for us.
I mean we need to do this.
Vicki Nelson (34:18):
Beyond parents, you know for everyone, yeah,
community I want to go back to.
We talked a little bit aboutThanksgiving and I think you
sort of addressed this, but Iwant to ask another question
along the same vein, a littlemore specifically, by the time
students are in high school andcollege age, many of them have
(34:42):
developed some pretty strongpolitical opinions.
At this point, what do we do ifthat's the case?
But my students' politicalopinions are opposed to mine?
How do I handle that in thefamily that we have some
(35:08):
differing political opinions?
Lindsey Cormack (35:11):
I think the first thing is to note that
that's not a marker of failure.
That's probably a marker ofsuccess, like, if you can have
children who are raised in yourhome, who have a lived
experience that is similar toyours, as well as their siblings
, but come to a perspective thatis different.
That means that you allow themto have some sort of opportunity
to individuate and, like, havetheir own journey where they're
(35:33):
getting to a different place.
If your child holds a differentopinion than you, I think it's
important that you're, like,willing to understand their
viewpoint and not dismiss themas like oh, you know, you'll
figure it out when you're older.
That's just a youthful ideathat you have right there.
Ask about their rationale, tryto figure it out, what it is
that's in their context thatlets them think this way, and
(35:54):
you don't have to have the endgoal of like oh, I wish you saw
it my way, or maybe I'm going tochange my mind.
It's just trying to figure out.
You know we might not have thesame goals in this political
arena.
We might not have the samethings that we think are
versions of the good life.
Can you tell me, like, how yougot there or where your
rationale is Because, like I'veseen it differently my whole
life, that's fine.
I think that's.
That's actually really a goodthing.
Vicki Nelson (36:15):
Okay, yeah, that that helps.
And you, you can say I've donemy work in a way, and, and and
I'm launching you to, to yourthinking.
To think themselves.
Lynn Abrahams (36:28):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (36:43):
I, it's sort of related to that.
I I To think themselves andpeople in this country who are
disappointed and scared andupset right now, and then we
have people who are thrilled andexcited about what's coming
over along.
But I was really struck by onething you said in the book,
(37:05):
where you said that, in spite ofand I'm quoting here living in
a time when politics may seempolarized and overwhelming,
there is hope.
Can you talk about this?
How does raising a citizen, howdoes this work that you
advocate for in this book giveus hope?
Lindsey Cormack (37:27):
One of the things that gives me the most
hope is knowing how much room wehave to grow.
One of the things that gives methe most hope is knowing how
much room we have to grow Ifonly 23% of our eighth graders
have a proficient understandingof civics.
Imagine how our politics wouldlook and sound differently if
that was just doubled.
We would have so many moreyoung people who understood how
to participate.
They'd understand, you know,like what's something
(37:47):
aspirational, what's not.
But right now we really have to, like you know, do all this
work with a cloudy vision ofwhat it is is happening at the
federal level, let alone stateand local government, which most
people don't know anythingabout.
So I am incredibly hopeful thatin having a culture that sort of
values communications on thistopic, that says you know what
(38:08):
politics is, everything it'sgoing to happen to us, whether
we like it or not.
So we might as well understandit a little bit better.
That makes our world richer,understanding of each other and
has better outcomes.
Because government, in the waythat we have it as a democratic
republic, does better work if itcan reflect the will of the
people it is to govern.
But if we don't understand that, and if we don't know how to
(38:28):
participate, it can only get asgood as we let it be.
Don't understand that.
And if we don't know how toparticipate, it can only get
like as good as we let it be.
And so we get the government wedeserve, and I know that no one
feels like this is going thatwell right now.
Even if you just maybe got anoutcome that you're happy with,
there's plenty of things thatcan be improved upon, so I'm
incredibly hopeful that thingscan get better.
Lynn Abrahams (38:45):
That sounds so good.
I like hearing that.
Vicki Nelson (38:49):
It's a perfect way to bring it together.
Lynn Abrahams (38:52):
You know we could talk all day, but we are going
to have to, you know, pull thistogether.
We usually ask every person whowe get to talk to one question,
and I'm going to ask you thatquestion now, and that is do you
have any other books torecommend to parents about
(39:16):
either this topic or parentingbesides your own that you think
would be helpful to parents?
Lindsey Cormack (39:26):
I think another book that is related and you'll
understand the similarity inthe title is how to Raise an
Adult by Julie Lifcott Hames.
We love that book.
It's such a good book, you know, and it's about all the things
that our kids need to have sothat when they go to college
they don't need us to handholdthem anymore.
I think that's one that Ireally liked.
There's also a new book that'scalled Democracy in Retrograde.
(39:48):
That's talking, talking abouthow young people are sort of
pulling away from politics, butthere's ways to get in.
And then another book that Ireally have liked, which just
came out earlier this year, isby Kelly Clancy, and it's a love
letter to politics.
But I want to get the actualbook.
Yeah, it's Democracy, a LoveLetter and a Guide for Everyone.
Lynn Abrahams (40:10):
Yeah, it's Democracy a Love Letter and a
Guide for Everyone, so we'regoing to put these books in the
show notes for people.
This is wonderful.
I have to write them down now.
Vicki Nelson (40:22):
I know I'm writing as fast as I can there.
This is a wonderfulconversation.
(40:43):
The book again just a reminderto everyone is how to Raise a
Citizen and why it's Up to youto Do it.
By Lindsay Cormack, with us atthis specific time.
This is the time that everyoneneeds to think about what do we
need to know and how do we makesure that everyone in our family
is understanding what's goingon?
So thank you for your book,Thank you for your time in
(41:06):
talking with us today.
Lynn Abrahams (41:06):
Thank you for your conversation.
Lindsey Cormack (41:08):
Thank you, and thank you for all these
thoughtful questions.
This was a really nice way tospend this afternoon.
Vicki Nelson (41:13):
Oh, good Thanks.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts, vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration ofthe amazing child in college.
Lynn Abrahams (00:47):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast
and our role in parenting as ourkids move from high school,
through college and out ofcollege.
My name is Lynn Abrahams and Iam a learning disability
specialist.
I have worked with collegestudents my entire career,
(01:10):
working with students and theirfamilies.
I also come to this as a parent.
I have two sons who have beento college in out around through
.
They did it their owninteresting ways, college in out
around through.
They did it their owninteresting ways and I've
parented them through that.
(01:30):
So we talk about this from botha professional and a personal
place.
I'm here today with my friendand my colleague, vicki Nelson,
and another guest, but I'll lether introduce herself.
Vicki Nelson (01:45):
Okay, I will start with me.
I'm Vicki Nelson and I am acollege professor of
communication.
I am also the parent of threedaughters, who have all gone to
college and come out the otherside, and we've all survived the
situation.
Lynn has the boys, I have thegirls, and so I also am always
(02:10):
thinking in terms of bothprofessionally and what I see in
the classroom, what I see in mystudents, and also my
experiences with my girls.
But we are, as Lynn mentioned,we are not by ourselves today.
We're very excited about theguest that we have with us today
and this is a very timelyconversation.
We're excited to be joined todayby Lindsay Cormack, who is the
(02:32):
author of the book how to Raisea Citizen and why it's Up to you
to Do it.
She's also an associateprofessor of political science
and director of the DiplomacyLab at Stevens Institute of
Technology in Hoboken, newJersey.
She has a PhD in governmentfrom New York University and is
(02:54):
also raising a daughter in NewYork.
So, like us, I guess Lindsay islooking both from the
professional and the parentalstandpoint.
Lindsay also created andmaintains a digital database of
all official Congress toConstituent e-newsletters in the
DC Inbox Project, which has tobe a fascinating collection of
(03:18):
material, I can only imagine.
Lindsay's work has beenpublished in all sorts of
scholarly publications, but alsoin places like the New York
Times, the Washington Post,propublica, the New York Post,
nbc News, cbs News, fox News andso many more publications and
media outlets, and we are sohonored and so excited to have
(03:42):
Lindsay here with us today,post-election, to talk about
raising a citizen.
Lindsay, welcome to the CollegeParent Central podcast.
Lindsey Cormack (03:52):
Thank you for having me.
I'm looking forward to talkingwith you both.
Thank you.
Vicki Nelson (03:56):
We want to learn all about what we should be
doing with our kids.
So to start, your book istitled how to Raise a Citizen
and you say at one point in thebook that raising a citizen is
not the same as raising apartisan.
Can you sort of set the stagefor us and talk a little bit
(04:17):
about what you mean by citizenin this context?
Lindsey Cormack (04:21):
Sure.
So I think there's two thingshere.
When I use the term citizen,I'm not referring to it in like
an exclusive legal marker, likeyou're entitled to these rights
and not those.
I'm referring to it in a farmore general sense.
I think about being a citizenas being a member of a community
, contributing to our sharedlife and understanding the
government apparatus that we'reoperating under.
(04:41):
In order to change it, when Italk about people as raising a
citizen or a partisan, I thinkit's best to describe it with an
analogy about raising anathlete versus raising a
spectator.
So if you were trying to raisesomeone who understood how to
play soccer, you would teachthem the rules of the game, you
would do practice drills withthem, you would maybe have them
scrimmage and they would learnto hone the muscle memory that
(05:03):
it takes to sort of besuccessful in that sport.
If you were teaching them tojust be a spectator, you might
say here's all the chants andthe songs that we sing from the
sidelines, here's the colors wepaint our faces, here's the
people we cheer really loudlyfor, here's the ones that we
don't like at all.
But in politics we don't reallyhave the option of being a
spectator.
We're really all athletes.
(05:24):
We're raising children who aregoing to be on that playing
field whether they like it ornot, and so the way that you
sort of get the politics thatyou want or the government
outcomes that you desire is bybeing a better athlete, being a
better citizen.
Partisanship is more aboutwhich team you're going to cheer
for, which side you get excitedfor if they happen to have a
victory, and so it's related toit, but it's not the same, and
(05:45):
we'd all do better to thinkabout ourselves as raising
citizen athletes versus partisanspectators.
Vicki Nelson (05:52):
That analogy makes so much sense.
It's so clear.
Thank you for that.
Lynn Abrahams (05:58):
I love that analogy.
You know one of the things Ithink about.
I feel like I never did a verygood job with my kids in terms
of talking about politics, andone thing I really love about
this book is that you give it'ssort of a guide to how to have
these conversations.
So why do you think we, asparents, don't do such a good
(06:22):
job with this?
Lindsey Cormack (06:24):
We as parents don't do such a good job with
this.
Well, I'm glad you brought thatup, because I don't think about
this book as like a fingerscoldy book where I'm saying
like, oh, we're not doing this.
It's like most of us grew up insystems that had a few
institutional failures that madeit hard for us to hone this
skill.
It really depends on what sortof part of the country you grew
up in or sort of like yourfamily culture.
But there's two big things thatoperate in a lot of parts of
(06:50):
the United States.
One is the idea that politics isan off limits topic, like it
sits in a taboo basket withthings like talking about how
much money someone makes ortheir religious beliefs or maybe
sexual identity, and so it'slike not considered a polite
conversation.
It's one that a lot of childrenjust don't have because their
parents, their families, don'tdo that.
But then in other parts of thecountry we have this sort of
idea that all politics is awfuland negative and bad, and so our
(07:11):
kids hear things like you know,everyone who's in it's corrupt,
they're liars, it's rigged,they're egomaniacs, they're in
it for themselves, and so ifthose are the two sorts of
messages we get in our homeenvironments.
It's not surprising that mostof us don't know how to do this,
because we're eitherunderpracticed or we really just
have a view that's all bad anddoom and gloom.
And so if those things exist inour family cultures, coincident
(07:33):
with schools who are activelydeprioritizing civics, it's not
surprising that a lot of us feellike we can't do this because
we haven't had practice and wehaven't been socialized to do it
that well, haven't had practiceand we haven't been socialized
to do it that well.
Lynn Abrahams (07:45):
You know.
You give a statistic in yourbook that was surprising to me
and that's that let's see in2020, only 25% of 18 to
24-year-olds reported havingpolitical discussions with their
parents.
Lindsey Cormack (08:05):
That's really dramatic.
Go ahead.
Yeah, that is dramatic, butit's something that I think was
borne out in the way that I sortof understand my students in
the classroom and this was froma really large nationally
representative survey, and soit's something where I know that
it's not just the kids that Iget, it's kind of everywhere in
the United States.
Most of our children aregetting through childhood never
having had intentionalconversations about what it
(08:26):
means to be a citizen or what itmeans to understand their
politics.
Lynn Abrahams (08:30):
You mentioned also that this is a way to move
from protecting our kids topreparing our kids.
Can you talk a little moreabout that?
Lindsey Cormack (08:40):
Yeah.
So something that I hear a lotfrom parents is, you know, like
well, I want them to have achildhood.
I don't want them to have tothink about these bigger things.
It's scary out there.
Politics is complicated and Iget that for some of our more
fearsome topics.
If we're thinking about, youknow, international relations,
or if we're thinking about war,activities that could be really
daunting for young kids and thatmight not be something you want
(09:01):
to do and that might not besomething you want to do, but
there is a time in which yourkids are getting ready to leave
your house and if you don'tequip them with this knowledge,
we know that they might not getit.
A lot of our K-12 schools justsimply don't give enough time to
this subject so that studentsare adequately prepared, and
unless they have to take apolitical science class in
college, they may never haveanother intentional time in
(09:21):
which they can work throughthese questions because they're
on their own.
Have another intentional timein which they can work through
these questions because they'reon their own.
Vicki Nelson (09:26):
I really like that you use that idea of preparing,
protecting to preparing.
We talk so much on this podcastabout preparing students for
college, preparing them and whatthey need to do to be able to
handle things on their own.
So this fits right into what atleast what we think parents
(09:48):
need to hear that the job isreally to get them ready.
You mentioned K-12, and youemphasize a lot in your book
about starting theseconversations early, that we
need to start at the level thatkids are, when they're young,
(10:08):
and bring the conversations in.
A lot of the listeners that wehave for this podcast are sort
of past that stage with theirhigh school parents, their
parents of students who arealready in college.
So my question then is is ittoo late?
Will kids of that age evenlisten to what parents have to
(10:32):
say, and how do we really needto talk to them as adults?
How do we?
How do we do that if we haven'tbuilt up to this before now?
Lindsey Cormack (10:43):
Yeah, so I never think of these as too
early or too late conversations.
You know, as long as you have achild in your life, whether
they be four or 40, you can havea relationship with them that
touches on politics, you can getinto these discussions with
them, and so for people who havehigh schoolers who haven't yet
left, or these young collegestudents who maybe haven't had
(11:03):
an opportunity to vote yet,there's time to do really good
work, and what I say in the bookis I think there's five sort of
things that those kids at thatage need to know in order to be
able to navigate the system beston their own, and I'll give it
to you sort of quickly.
The first thing is they need toknow how to register to vote,
and a lot of times, parentsthink this is going to happen in
(11:24):
the schools.
They'll teach them, but we knowthat in 2022, the last federal
election that we had only alittle bit more than a quarter
of our 18 year olds wereregistered to vote and ready to
prepare in that election.
So it's something where, whenwe think about why that is part
of it is, it's kind of tricky.
You have to have your socialsecurity number to register to
vote and many 16-year-olds don'tknow where their card is like.
Maybe mom or dad has it in anenvelope somewhere, and so they
(11:45):
just don't have this basicinformation that they need to do
it.
The second thing is a lot of theteachers that we interviewed in
talking to this book said wedon't really teach about the
primary election system.
You know they'll talk about thegeneral elections and they
might talk about thepresidential primary, but for so
much of our politics thepivotal election is that early
one that happens when you'repicking who's going to be the
(12:06):
Democratic nominee or who'sgoing to be the Republican
nominee.
So parents, if they really wanttheir kids to understand their
politics around them the stateand local level especially, it's
talking about primary elections.
The third is that our kids needto understand at least read the
constitution once, and I knowthat that sounds really hard to
a lot of parents, like I'm notgoing to sit down and quiz my
kids on 19 pages of theconstitution and that's not my
(12:28):
goal.
But my goal is that in thecourse of the 18 years you have
with them, make sure you haveopportunities to do it and, if
you haven't done it yourself asa parent, something that you can
brush up on too and, likechapter seven of the book, is
just like here's questions youcan ask while you do that.
Here's how you can make itrelevant to their lives.
They also need to know whatfederalism is.
This is something else intalking to teachers, where I
said here's something that wedon't quite impart in the way
(12:49):
that we wanted to, which issimply, local government does
different things than stategovernment does different things
than federal government, andsometimes there's overlap.
And then this final piece, whichyou can do at any age, is
practice having hardconversations and show them what
that looks like, becausesomething that I see in my
classroom and I imagine you seeit in yours as a communications
person is that a lot of collegestudents are very uncomfortable
(13:13):
with the idea of themselvesbeing uncomfortable or making
someone else experiencediscomfort, even in conversation
, and we know that politics isgoing to have discomfort, so we
have to practice that.
We have to do that in a settinglike a house.
Now, whether or not your kidsare going to listen to you,
you're going to know them betterthan I, but I will say
something that I find, andsomething that I find with other
(13:34):
practitioners in this area issometimes the best place to do
this is when you're on a commute, when you're in a car side by
side or when you're walking sideby side, so you're not, you
know, looking each other in theeye, but you can sort of have
these conversations without thatintensity.
That tends to be something thatworks better with those kids
who maybe just don't want to sitdown across the table from mom
or dad and have these sorts ofhard conversations want to sit
(13:56):
down across the table from momor dad and have these sorts of
hard conversations.
Vicki Nelson (14:03):
There's so much in what you.
You know everything as you gotthrough that list.
You know, and it occurred to meas I read the book and again
now as you're talking about it Ihave three daughters and
they're all grown now familiesof their own.
I cannot remember how theyregistered to vote.
I know they did, I know theyvote, but I don't remember
teaching them.
I don't remember taking them.
(14:24):
I don't know whether ithappened in the schools.
It's a mystery to me and that's.
The fact that I just can'tremember that process at all
with any of the three of them isreally shocking.
Lindsey Cormack (14:38):
That might be a fun conversation for you to
have with them, be like how didyou figure this out?
Or where did you do this, orwhen?
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (14:43):
That's going to be one conversation at
Thanksgiving and this is comingout just before Thanksgiving and
so I want to sort of take alittle detour here because you
know you talk about practicinghaving those conversations and
there will be hard conversations.
Thanksgiving is coming up andyou know, for a lot of families
(15:06):
who are going to be sittingaround the Thanksgiving turkey,
the families may not all agreeon everything.
Do you have any suggestions andI'm springing this on you, but
do you have any suggestions forhow we can have conversations
(15:27):
around that Thanksgiving tableand how we can include our kids
in those conversations in acivil sort of way?
Lindsey Cormack (15:35):
Yeah.
So I send all my collegestudents out to have
conversations and I give them alittle sample script to start
from, because I know that it canbe really daunting to do this,
and I ask them to talk to twopeople that they're going to see
over Thanksgiving and sayhere's these sets of questions
that I want you to ask them andI sort of like that they can say
my teacher said we have to andthen they have to have the
(15:56):
political conversation, but thestarter question that I always
use, no matter the context here,is what have you heard about
that?
And the reason that I like whathave you heard as the first
question versus what do youthink or what's your opinion, is
that the person who's answeringthat is not responsible for
justifying something orconvincing you that they're
(16:18):
right or wrong.
They're just sort of likesetting the table with what have
I heard and that can be, youknow, I saw it on Instagram or I
read it in the paper orso-and-so said it in school or
whatever and just saying whathave you heard, so that we all
sort of understand where ourstarting points are.
And when you go into aconversation like that, I think
it's also important to sort oflevel set with yourself and with
(16:39):
others.
We're not going to convinceother people that we are correct
.
We're usually not convincedthat we are incorrect, and so
the real exercise here is whatcan I learn about this person in
terms of how they got frompoint A to point B or why they
maybe preferred this candidateor that candidate, not?
How can I show them they werewrong for picking that candidate
, or how can I show them I wasright for doing this.
(17:00):
It's more understanding thatyou're learning about someone
else versus convincing them, andvice versa.
Vicki Nelson (17:06):
That's really really good advice and some
practical things that they canthink about and do to get
through the holiday.
Lynn Abrahams (17:24):
You know, one of the aha moments I had reading
your book was that there's adifference between talking about
sort of emotional stuff likewho did you vote for and why,
and what's democracy or what'syou know?
You know some of the just plaininformation about how our
government works and I thinkwhen my kids were young I did
assume the school was going todo that and and they don't do
(17:47):
that, so that that was an ahamoment for me, that oh my
goodness, I they're not doing it.
And then the other aha was Ican do it in a way like more
like a teacher than as aemotional.
You know you should vote, youknow Democratic or Republican.
So so this book really waseye-opening for me.
(18:12):
So let me go back.
There's no question in there.
I was just talking.
Lindsey Cormack (18:24):
First of all, the one question is just why is
it that schools don't do this?
Lynn Abrahams (18:26):
anymore.
That's a really hard question.
Do you have another one?
You said one, no, no, go ahead,we'll just stick with that one
for now.
Lindsey Cormack (18:29):
Okay.
So there's a lot of reasons andI kind of get into this and you
know I had six researchassistants sort of help me do
all these interviews and look atsort of the data on time in the
classroom that we give tocivics and money that's
dedicated to civics.
But it sort of boils down to wedo it a little bit too little,
too late, and one of the reasonsfor that is because the
teaching environment in Kthrough 12 is really constrained
(18:50):
, and what I mean by that is,you know, with every other
subject math, science,literature we scaffold from K
through 12.
We like start with little vocab, we build into harder concepts,
we let kids wrestle with things, maybe advocacy, but throughout
the United States there's not astandardized curriculum on
civics.
Every state gets to do it theirown way.
States further devolve thatdown to school boards.
(19:11):
Depends on, if you're like,independent schools, public
schools, religious schools theyall have different approaches.
But there's a modal form ofdelivery which is usually in
seventh or eighth grade.
That's the first time studentstouch something.
That's usually like US history,or sometimes it's called world
history, and it's sort of thisumbrella social studies class,
and then we mostly wait againuntil your second semester, your
senior year of high school, andteach you a government class,
(19:34):
which is like voting somefounding father stuff, a few
primary documents, westwardexpansion, the end, and so we
really don't have enough time todo this.
If that's sort of the method ofdelivery, because it's
complicated, it's an intricatesystem, there's a long history,
there's contemporaneous things,there's stuff to think about in
the future, it's just too muchto do in a year and a half,
which is how most students getit in a year and a half, which
(19:58):
is how most students get it.
But it's also something where wedo not prioritize the training
of social studies teachers, theemployment of social studies
teachers.
And a joke that we heardrepeatedly was you all know who
teaches AP government, his nameis coach, and that's because a
lot of our social studiesteachers are not employed on
full-time contracts unless theyalso do something like coach
swimming or track or football,and so there's sort of this
prioritization where thoseteachers, those professions,
(20:20):
aren't as in demand as thescience, the English, the math.
And that's also related to thethird point, which is our
obsession with ACT and SATscores means that if it's not
tested, it's not taught, or itis the easiest first thing to
get squeezed out of a curriculumIf you say you know, we got to
get this stuff before they getto those college entrance exam
and there's no component ofsocial studies on either of
(20:42):
those exams.
There is a move in the SAT tohave some of the reading
assessments have some like USprimary documents that they're
reading.
So there is a little bit of apush that's coming back.
But not since 1987, when theSAT, when the ACT excuse me took
(21:03):
out social studies, have we hadany sort of you know, end of
the high school experience teston this.
So it's just not something thathappens.
And then, finally, it's reallyhard to do this work.
A lot of the teachers weinterviewed, because parents
themselves make the classroomenvironment one that's a little
bit more fraught, even ifteachers are trying to give a
very straightforward lesson,like there's three branches of
government and the Congress isthe first branch because it's
(21:24):
Article I of the Constitution,it's supposed to be more
powerful.
If a student comes home andtells their parent, oh, I
learned this and you know, firstbranch, that parent might hear
oh, your teacher doesn't likethe president and I don't like
that, and they inflame aFacebook group or email a
principal or administrators oreven badger, the teacher
themselves.
And so they nearly everyone wetalked to was like yeah, we're
getting a lot more parental sortof like pushback or fear that
(21:47):
if we talk about these things.
Brainwashing or indoctrinatingis the words that people throw
around, and so their incentivesmake it such that you know it
doesn't feel good to wade intosomething, even if they really
want your kids to learn this orthey know they should.
If they're going to getblowback on the other side, it
makes it like a less desirablething to do.
And so schools are just K-12.
(22:08):
Schools are a really hardenvironment to get all this done
for like time constraints orthe sorts of ways that teachers
operate in the classroom and forthe ways that we sort of test.
Overall, it's a hard place todo it.
Lynn Abrahams (22:20):
So if schools aren't doing it, then that means
that we should do it as parents.
What are the consequences of itnot happening, which is what
happens, I think, For a wholegeneration?
Lindsey Cormack (22:33):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, when we look at thenation's report card assessment
on civics, which weighs in ateighth grade, we have the same
test scores now in 2024 as wehad in 1998, which means for a
very long time we have notimproved in the way that we are
teaching civics or at least inthe way that our students are
understanding it.
If you sum all these together,only 23% of our eighth graders
(22:57):
have what's considered aproficient understanding of
civics at eighth grade.
So if we are graduating a bunchof students who just do not
know the systems that they'regetting into, they're less
likely to participate becausethey don't know how to pull the
levers of power or exercise itthemselves.
They're less likely to trustthe systems, because how can you
trust something if you don'tknow anything about it?
That's like a really big askfor people.
(23:17):
They're more prone to takingpositions that look like
apathetic, like I don't care, itdoesn't matter, it's a big
system, I'm a little person andwe've seen it worse.
That sort of like mistrustenvironment can lead to
political violence or the ideathat you're like on the outside
of a system, versus how I kindof see this, which is you know,
governments have problemseverywhere.
There's different styles ofgoverning that are better or
(23:38):
worse, and say what you willabout the United States, we have
one of the best decision-makingstyles of governance ever.
We have a collectivedecision-making where we can
change our outcomes.
That's something to becelebrated, not something to
like hide from our kids and makesure they can't figure it out
until they learn it on their own.
But we really aren't doing thatand the risks are we have, you
know, people who are disaffectedby politics, don't believe in
(23:59):
the system, don't want to getinvolved, and nothing gets
better if people are feelingthat way.
Stuff gets better if we valueit, if we have attention and
we're trying to make it better,and we can't do that if we don't
know about it.
Lynn Abrahams (24:09):
That is so huge.
Lindsey Cormack (24:12):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (24:12):
And you know, as you're talking about this,
really generation that doesn'thave the background that they
need.
Is that part of why theseyounger voters are the least
likely to vote?
I mean, I'm old enough.
I remember when you had to be21 to vote and we fought, fought
(24:36):
, fought to bring it down to 18.
But now you have that age groupthat is less likely to turn out
and vote in an election.
Where does that come from?
Lindsey Cormack (24:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's part of it.
They are the least likely toturn out.
18 to 24 routinely has thelowest levels of registration
and, in turn, the lowest levelsof voter turnout.
But when we think about, youknow, some of the big political
voices, my students will saystuff to me like why is everyone
in politics so old?
And I'll say, well, let's go doan analysis of who participates
in voting, let's see if thatmatches up with the sort of
(25:11):
outcomes that we get.
And on average it does.
Voters tend to be older peoplewho understand when to show up,
how to register, if they'regoing to turn out for a primary
or general election.
And it's not fair.
I don't think to say like, yeah, you guys are eligible to do
this, but we're not going totell you the rules or how it
happens or what day or when youturn in the paper, and so they
don't get outcomes.
They like they get frustratedand that's not really their
(25:33):
fault.
There's not a button that turnson when you're 18.
That's like oh, here's all theinformation.
We have to do this work withthem if we want them to be able
to participate.
Lynn Abrahams (25:41):
Oh, I so agree with that yeah, yeah.
Vicki Nelson (25:45):
So If we're convinced we understand why the
schools aren't doing whatthey're doing, we may not be
happy with it, but we understandthat it's not happening in the
schools and we understand moreof it than if we want to raise
citizens falls to us as parents.
(26:07):
What about those of us who sayI get this and it's really
important and I want to do thisfor my kids, but I don't know
enough myself when?
Lynn Abrahams (26:23):
do we start the second half of this book?
Vicki Nelson (26:31):
Well, yes, I love the way you snuck that into the
book there.
Yeah.
Lindsey Cormack (26:37):
Thank you, so yeah, so I mean, I guess I'll
just say the setup.
The first part is like here'sthe problem, here's how we can
fix.
And the second part is like andif you feel like you don't know
enough, here's a little primerto get you started and go on
your merry way.
The first thing I'll say is youknow, a lot of schools aren't
doing this that well.
There are some bright spots, soyou might make sure that you
just like check in and see howyour kids are learning before
you say like I got to do it allmyself.
(26:58):
But I also think that there'stwo sorts of answers to this
Like I don't know enough and Ihear this a lot more from moms
than I do, from dads wherethey'll say like I don't know
enough and I don't want to leadthem astray, or I don't know
enough and I don't want tounduly influence them.
The first response I sort ofhave to that is that is not the
way that we want to prepare ourkids for anything.
(27:18):
We want to show them what is it, a model to learn more.
So if you feel like you don'tknow enough and you want to have
a conversation with them, theydon't need you to be government
trivia experts.
They need you to show them whatit is, when you have
uncertainty, to go seek moreinformation and figure that out.
And so that's like such abetter way to approach this,
versus saying I don't know,guess we're never gonna learn,
(27:39):
or guess I can't do that.
But the second thing is thereare some organizations that
parents who want their schoolsto have an easier go of doing
this and aren't gonna be able tohire social studies teachers
there are some really neatexperiential civics things that
some parents can demand thattheir school sort of implements.
Something like we the People,which is a national competition
where kids you know they thinkabout foundational documents and
(28:01):
arguments at the time of theframing and say like, okay,
here's how we're going to lookat these things.
Or things like the Civics Bee,which has like a cash prize for
winning it and people can enteraround the world prize for
winning it and people can enteraround the world.
So it's something where thereare sort of other things that
you can push your kids or yourschools to think about.
But I don't think you shouldsay, well, I don't know, so it's
off my plate, because that'snot good enough.
We are the parents in the roomright now and if we don't like
(28:22):
the way our politics is feelingor functioning, it's up to us to
try to do something different.
And I think that somethingdifferent is being willing to
learn a little bit more and showour kids that it matters that
we learn more that we understandthese systems.
That way we get outcomes thatwe like.
Vicki Nelson (28:35):
So we learn it together With them In that way.
Lindsey Cormack (28:39):
So much, and that's something where I think
most of the people who I talk towho have read this book they'll
say like, oh, I think actuallyit's raising me a little bit too
, like talking to my kids, andI'm like, yeah, because a lot of
us were really underserved withthe schooling that we got, with
the orientation that ourparents and families might have
had, and so there's something todo.
You're not just teaching yourkids, you know this, they're
(29:02):
going to teach you.
Vicki Nelson (29:02):
That happens with everything, and so it's like a
good feedback loop to have withthem and we'll put those
organizations in the show notesand that might be a help.
But just to follow up a littlebit you mentioned there are some
bright spots and so that meansin some places some people are
doing it right.
(29:22):
Are there things?
You mentioned theseorganizations but are there
things that parents can do tolobby or encourage schools to do
more with this?
Lindsey Cormack (29:37):
I mean there absolutely are, and there's
models of this happeningthroughout the United States.
In Rhode Island, their stateconstitution sort of guarantees
that people will have aneducation that allows them to
understand their systems.
And when some students were like, well, that's not what we're
experiencing now, students andparents banded together to
actually file lawsuits to sayyou have to do more, you have to
give us a better education onthis front, and that's not to
(29:59):
say I think everyone should gothrough their schools, but it is
something to say if you have aproblem and you feel like you
know I want to solve this in myhome, but it'd be easier if we
had more eyes on this, morebrains on this.
It doesn't hurt to talk to aprincipal, to a school
administrator, to a teacher andsay how can we do more of this?
And you know they might havesome ideas, but they're really
afraid that parents aren't goingto like it.
(30:19):
We just need more on this, notthe idea that, like you know, I
have to do it alone.
It's not a book that saysschools can't do this.
It's actually probablysymbiotic, but we all sort of
have to start somewhere.
Lynn Abrahams (30:32):
What about students who feel like they have
no voice in government and theyfeel like or their voice
doesn't matter?
How could they, as a parent,how could I get my kids involved
to know that they can have avoice, maybe in local politics?
Lindsey Cormack (30:54):
I hear that a lot and it's, you know, to a
certain degree true at a lot offederal level stuff where you
say, you know, I likereproductive rights or access or
restrictions on guns or theability to have legalized
marijuana, these sorts of likequality of life topics.
(31:21):
A lot of that happens at thestate level and then a lot of it
gets implemented at the locallevel.
And that's places wherechildren and individuals are far
more pivotal, because there arefewer people in that electorate
and it oftentimes takes just afew thousand to win an election,
and so if you can sort of makesure that you figure out what
the things are that they careabout, does that really happen
(31:41):
at the state level or federallevel?
A lot of it's state.
Is there something that's alocal initiative that would make
their life better?
Then they can really be pivotal.
And even if it's not just I'mone vote, it can be.
I'm a voice that amplifiesothers.
I'm doing art for change, I'morganizing something, I have a
social media campaign.
There are a lot of outsizedways that you can get attention,
especially in those smallerforms of government.
Vicki Nelson (32:04):
So that makes me starting locally is at a scale
that students sometimes canhandle it and it makes sense.
And a lot of what you're sayingis making me think.
You said somewhere in the bookthat you know understanding how
government works contributes tomore to positive mental health
(32:26):
for students, and if ever therewas a time when we were
concerned about students andanxiety and mental health, this
is it, and so is that becausethat it can contribute to
positive mental health, becausethey feel that they can take
action and can do something.
Lindsey Cormack (32:45):
Well, what you're pointing out is like yes,
that you know there's a lot ofchallenges with our kids feeling
anxiety or depression orloneliness or isolation.
And sort of understanding whatrole you play in our political
system, versus being like thisamorphous thing that just has to
like go with whatever politicalwins, is a way to sort of like
root or ground our children.
It allows them to self advocatebetter because if they
understand you know this isn'tworking for me or I want to
(33:07):
change, but I know how to dothis then I can understand which
levers to pull on to get anoutcome.
It also means that some of thestuff that you may be hearing in
media spaces that are meant tolike scare you or make you
afraid of something.
If you understand the groundlevel of things, you might not
be as influenced bymisinformation or disinformation
(33:27):
because you're like I don'tactually think it's going to be
that scary.
I don't think that's possible.
I think there's some likeguidelines or guardrails in our
politics that make that notpossible.
But at the local level, there'sthis additional benefit, which
is local.
Politics is so personallysocial and so it, like it, you
know, lives on the repeatedinteraction of individuals
(33:49):
coming together for a sharedpurpose, and so you have this
sort of like community buildingthat's baked into doing local
politics, and so that's a wayfor kids who are like confused
or think they're beingmanipulated, to like see it
themselves, do it themselves andbe like oh no, I actually
understand how this happens andI have agency in this system and
I can change it.
That's really helpful.
Lynn Abrahams (34:09):
I think this book is not just for young, I mean
adults.
This is for us.
I mean we need to do this.
Vicki Nelson (34:18):
Beyond parents, you know for everyone, yeah,
community I want to go back to.
We talked a little bit aboutThanksgiving and I think you
sort of addressed this, but Iwant to ask another question
along the same vein, a littlemore specifically, by the time
students are in high school andcollege age, many of them have
(34:42):
developed some pretty strongpolitical opinions.
At this point, what do we do ifthat's the case?
But my students' politicalopinions are opposed to mine?
How do I handle that in thefamily that we have some
(35:08):
differing political opinions?
Lindsey Cormack (35:11):
I think the first thing is to note that
that's not a marker of failure.
That's probably a marker ofsuccess, like, if you can have
children who are raised in yourhome, who have a lived
experience that is similar toyours, as well as their siblings
, but come to a perspective thatis different.
That means that you allow themto have some sort of opportunity
to individuate and, like, havetheir own journey where they're
(35:33):
getting to a different place.
If your child holds a differentopinion than you, I think it's
important that you're, like,willing to understand their
viewpoint and not dismiss themas like oh, you know, you'll
figure it out when you're older.
That's just a youthful ideathat you have right there.
Ask about their rationale, tryto figure it out, what it is
that's in their context thatlets them think this way, and
(35:54):
you don't have to have the endgoal of like oh, I wish you saw
it my way, or maybe I'm going tochange my mind.
It's just trying to figure out.
You know we might not have thesame goals in this political
arena.
We might not have the samethings that we think are
versions of the good life.
Can you tell me, like, how yougot there or where your
rationale is Because, like I'veseen it differently my whole
life, that's fine.
I think that's.
That's actually really a goodthing.
Vicki Nelson (36:15):
Okay, yeah, that that helps.
And you, you can say I've donemy work in a way, and, and and
I'm launching you to, to yourthinking.
To think themselves.
Lynn Abrahams (36:28):
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson (36:43):
I, it's sort of related to that.
I I To think themselves andpeople in this country who are
disappointed and scared andupset right now, and then we
have people who are thrilled andexcited about what's coming
over along.
But I was really struck by onething you said in the book,
(37:05):
where you said that, in spite ofand I'm quoting here living in
a time when politics may seempolarized and overwhelming,
there is hope.
Can you talk about this?
How does raising a citizen, howdoes this work that you
advocate for in this book giveus hope?
Lindsey Cormack (37:27):
One of the things that gives me the most
hope is knowing how much room wehave to grow.
One of the things that gives methe most hope is knowing how
much room we have to grow Ifonly 23% of our eighth graders
have a proficient understandingof civics.
Imagine how our politics wouldlook and sound differently if
that was just doubled.
We would have so many moreyoung people who understood how
to participate.
They'd understand, you know,like what's something
(37:47):
aspirational, what's not.
But right now we really have to, like you know, do all this
work with a cloudy vision ofwhat it is is happening at the
federal level, let alone stateand local government, which most
people don't know anythingabout.
So I am incredibly hopeful thatin having a culture that sort of
values communications on thistopic, that says you know what
(38:08):
politics is, everything it'sgoing to happen to us, whether
we like it or not.
So we might as well understandit a little bit better.
That makes our world richer,understanding of each other and
has better outcomes.
Because government, in the waythat we have it as a democratic
republic, does better work if itcan reflect the will of the
people it is to govern.
But if we don't understand that, and if we don't know how to
(38:28):
participate, it can only get asgood as we let it be.
Don't understand that.
And if we don't know how toparticipate, it can only get
like as good as we let it be.
And so we get the government wedeserve, and I know that no one
feels like this is going thatwell right now.
Even if you just maybe got anoutcome that you're happy with,
there's plenty of things thatcan be improved upon, so I'm
incredibly hopeful that thingscan get better.
Lynn Abrahams (38:45):
That sounds so good.
I like hearing that.
Vicki Nelson (38:49):
It's a perfect way to bring it together.
Lynn Abrahams (38:52):
You know we could talk all day, but we are going
to have to, you know, pull thistogether.
We usually ask every person whowe get to talk to one question,
and I'm going to ask you thatquestion now, and that is do you
have any other books torecommend to parents about
(39:16):
either this topic or parentingbesides your own that you think
would be helpful to parents?
Lindsey Cormack (39:26):
I think another book that is related and you'll
understand the similarity inthe title is how to Raise an
Adult by Julie Lifcott Hames.
We love that book.
It's such a good book, you know, and it's about all the things
that our kids need to have sothat when they go to college
they don't need us to handholdthem anymore.
I think that's one that Ireally liked.
There's also a new book that'scalled Democracy in Retrograde.
(39:48):
That's talking, talking abouthow young people are sort of
pulling away from politics, butthere's ways to get in.
And then another book that Ireally have liked, which just
came out earlier this year, isby Kelly Clancy, and it's a love
letter to politics.
But I want to get the actualbook.
Yeah, it's Democracy, a LoveLetter and a Guide for Everyone.
Lynn Abrahams (40:10):
Yeah, it's Democracy a Love Letter and a
Guide for Everyone, so we'regoing to put these books in the
show notes for people.
This is wonderful.
I have to write them down now.
Vicki Nelson (40:22):
I know I'm writing as fast as I can there.
This is a wonderfulconversation.
(40:43):
The book again just a reminderto everyone is how to Raise a
Citizen and why it's Up to youto Do it.
By Lindsay Cormack, with us atthis specific time.
This is the time that everyoneneeds to think about what do we
need to know and how do we makesure that everyone in our family
is understanding what's goingon?
So thank you for your book,Thank you for your time in
(41:06):
talking with us today.
Lynn Abrahams (41:06):
Thank you for your conversation.
Lindsey Cormack (41:08):
Thank you, and thank you for all these
thoughtful questions.
This was a really nice way tospend this afternoon.
Vicki Nelson (41:13):
Oh, good Thanks.
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