February 19, 2025 • 43 mins
Almost all colleges have a set of required courses for all students – sometimes called General Education or Distribution courses. They’re designed to expose students to a variety of different subjects and disciplines. But what happens when that particular area or course is especially challenging for a student? How do they face this mandatory course that can seem so daunting? Some students may assume or wish that they might receive an accommodation that will waive the course, exempt them from having to take it, or at least modify the course to help them be more successful. But that rarely happens. In this episode Elizabeth and Vicki talk about how students can tackle these tough classes head-on. With the right strategies, such as sequencing courses carefully, engaging with professors, and seeking early tutoring, students can not only survive, but thrive in these challenging environments. We share practical tips for staying organized and proactive to overcome these potential academic hurdles.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all kinds of things
that have to do with parenting acollege student, or a student
who may be thinking about orgetting ready to go to college,
and sometimes even thosestudents who have graduated from
college, and sometimes eventhose students who have
(01:05):
graduated from college.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication
at a small liberal arts school,and I have also served for a few
years as a director of academicadvising.
And, probably just as important, I am the mother of three
daughters, who have all gone tocollege and come out on the
(01:27):
other side.
So I look at this topic ofcollege parenting both as a
professional who works withstudents every day and also
having lived it as a parent.
And I am here today with one ofour co-hosts, elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hamblett and I'm going to let her introduce
herself and then I'm going totalk about what we're going to
talk about today.
Okay, I'm Elizabeth Hamblettand I work part-time as a
university college, universitycollege my goodness, college
learning disability specialist.
That's what I do.
We're both having difficultytoday.
It's been a long January, folks,so I work one-on-one with
students registered with ouroffice on things like time
(02:11):
management and organization andreading and writing strategies
all those things that I love somuch and in my spare time I do a
lot of writing and speaking onpreparing students with
disabilities for successfulcollege transition, which is a
little bit of the things thatyou both talk about in terms of
(02:34):
working with students withlearning differences also apply
to all the students, I see.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So you know they're general things, and what we want
to talk about today has to dowith when students have to take
challenging courses, andespecially when those courses
are required and they don't havea choice.
Most colleges require somegeneral education or
(03:15):
distribution courses.
They call them different thingsand, elizabeth, you can help me
out here.
I don't think in most casesstudents can get an
accommodation to skip the classentirely.
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
It is like a likelihood that I can't really
speak to.
I can talk about sort of thelegal aspects of this,
specifically for students withdisabilities, if that's where
you want to start.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, I'm just thinking that.
You know students may feel well, I'm going to have an
accommodation because I have alearning difference, so you know
if I'll pick on something mathmaybe I'm projecting here
because of how I felt about math, math is really hard for me, so
(04:10):
I'm sure my accommodation willlet me skip taking a math class.
That's the sort of thing, and Ithink most of the time that's
not going to be the case.
There are going to be ways tohelp level the playing field,
but not get out of it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
I always have to start by prefacing that this is
neither legal nor medical advice, because it's very important.
You know I've been in the fieldfor more than 25 years and I
stay active in my community.
But essentially you know fromwhat I get from the experts that
I listen to.
Colleges have to consider anyrequests that students with
(04:48):
disabilities specifically make,and that could include a course
substitution.
So you brought up math studentswith dyscalculia, for instance,
might say I just cannot pass amath class at the college level
and it's a little bit.
It seems contradictory to meand I haven't quite figured out
(05:09):
how it's not.
But here's what I mean.
Colleges should and I wouldassume most of them have, but
again I don't have any numberson this have figured out what
their core curriculum is.
There should have been acommittee of involved people
saying we require everybody whograduates from Hamlet University
(05:31):
to have taken whatever thecourses are for their major, as
well as two in this area, two inthis area, two in this area,
which is what we refer to assort of a traditional liberal
arts education where you studyin different areas, so they are
allowed to decide that, havingmade those decisions.
(05:52):
It would be a fundamentalalteration of their degree
requirements to allow a studentto substitute one of those
courses.
So it always feels strange tome when I explain this, because
a college can basically be inthe position of saying there
isn't any argument anybody'sever going to bring to us that
is going to change that fact,and yet we are required by the
(06:17):
Office for Civil Rights to stillreview any requests that come
in.
So I want to be very clear.
Do not take this conversationat all to mean that you know, if
you find out, hamlet Universityhas established all these
requirements, your studentsshould not request a
substitution.
My mantra is your studentsshould request any accommodation
(06:39):
for disability that theybelieve that they need.
Whether that will get grantedis based on too many variables
to address, so they shouldalways ask.
And so the genesis of thisconversation, vicki right, was a
blog post that I have up on mysite because, to your point I
(07:03):
think, so often the things thatI talk about in my work, trying
to talk to professionals andparents about what the college
disability service environment,you know, looks like what people
can and can't expect.
Sometimes that advice crossesover into being good advice
generally for students, you know, without disabilities, and so
(07:26):
you know, my best example ofthis is myself, and there's
nothing more boring thanlistening, probably, to a
podcast host talk about herself.
But it is interesting because Iwas in college in the mid and
late 80s and I was taking Frenchbecause I wanted to learn it
(07:46):
anew and our school required sixsemesters of language, which is
unusual, wow.
Yes, for undergrads andnon-engineering.
My husband graduated with anengineering degree.
He didn't have to do anyforeign language, which is
something that we know we shouldtouch on as well.
So I started in a class where,I think, possibly because of
(08:09):
this requirement, a lot ofstudents just took again
whatever language they hadstudied in high school.
And so I still remember myfreshman, first year, first
semester French class, beingmyself and two other students
who hadn't taken French.
Everybody else had taken itthroughout high school, and you
(08:30):
know now, as somebody whounderstands learning, I realized
the professor never wroteanything on the board, she just
spoke.
It was meant to be immersive,but because I did not see the
words, just because of the way Ilearn and in learning styles
are not supported by research,but because of my learning
(08:50):
strengths and weaknesses I wasunable to link the words she was
saying with the words.
And I remember being in thelanguage lab for those of us old
enough to remember that andseeing words she had been saying
all term and finally putting ittogether.
So I, you know, truth be told,I did not apply myself very much
(09:14):
to my French.
I did not seek tutoring, exceptonce, I think so that's on me
and I made it scrambling throughthe fifth class and the
professor looked at me and shesaid you will not pass the
literature level and that's next, and I needed this to graduate.
Again, no disability, just somestrengths and weaknesses.
(09:34):
I did not need any specialpermission to take French.
Comedy taught in English, andthat is among the reasons I sit
before you.
A college graduate, I also wentto a school that required two
semesters of any combination, atthat time, of math and science.
(09:55):
I dropped out of calculus witha 40 average, that's probably
better than I would have had.
You've never seen a professorsign a drop slip so fast in your
life, um, and I think shemight've said I don't really
know how you ended up here, andI didn't really either but um,
and managed to graduate, havingtaken physical anthropology and
(10:18):
biological psychology, which youknow we're still challenging.
That one was still challengingfor me.
So you know, if we're going tostart with, I would like to even
start before they get tocollege.
Okay, because often when I amgiving my presentations on
preparing students for college,one of the things that I do
(10:40):
address is the fact thatstudents may not get a
substitution for classes thatare extremely challenging for
them, but one of the things thatthey can do is check the
graduation requirements for thecolleges that they're looking at
and also check if they'veidentified a major those
requirements, that's a good idea, because it is possible to
(11:03):
attend a school that doesn'trequire the things that you find
really challenging.
I am the parent of an art schoolgrad and an engineering school
grad and none of my kids had todo the kinds of things I had to.
They didn't have those generaleducation requirements and they
were delighted.
And so you know, if you'regoing to spend all that money
(11:25):
and all that time, it is a goodidea to look at what they
require.
You know, there are someschools with very intensive core
requirements and maybe that'sjust not your student's
preference and that's a reallygreat decision to make.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
That's really really good advice, and you know.
The other thing about startingto think about this in high
school is if there is a schoolthat you really want to go to
that has a requirement that youthink is going to be really
tough to find out.
If there is, instead ofavoiding it in high school, see
(12:01):
if you can take something thatclass or related to it while
you're in high school to helpyou have the background and
foundation and come up to speedby the time you get to this
required level class in college.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
And what's interesting, when I was
researching stuff from my latestbook, one of the things that I
learned was that there arecolleges and this is again back
to students with disabilitieswho might get admitted to a
college having not met theirentrance requirements, for
instance, for math or forforeign language, and some of
(12:38):
those colleges require thosestudents to then take those
classes in order to graduate.
And I think it was one of theFlorida State I mean, this has
been a few years now I think itwas one of the Florida State
universities and it may besystem-wide for them.
I'm not sure where I identifiedthat policy.
So these are things to keep inmind, you know, and for the
(13:01):
parents of students withdisabilities and I am using
disability for a specific reasonVicki used differences I use
disability because it has to bea disability to get accommodated
at college, and so that's just,that's not that I I don't think
of disability as a bad word,but anyway.
So it can be really important,if you're looking at these
(13:23):
requirements and your studentdoesn't meet the entrance
requirements and gets admittedto Hamlet University, to ask and
I don't even know who you wouldspeak to about this whether
that university would requireyour student to then take those
credits there, because that'ssomething I think a lot of
people don't expect Lots ofquestions to ask even before you
(13:45):
get started.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, and lots to think about.
And again, just a reminder thatwe are not, you know, in the
things that we've gottenourselves way off from what we
were going to talk about, but it, but it's it's it's important
information, um, but that itwe're we're not, as we go
through, exclusively talkingabout students with disabilities
(14:09):
, um, because I'm the one that'sconstantly saying you know
everything you're saying aboutstudents with disabilities other
than the you know, gettingaccommodations applies to
students without disabilities,absolutely, and thinking about
that.
So it was your you mentioned, itwas your blog post on LD
(14:34):
Advisory, your website that Ilooked at and said, wow, this is
all information that would bereally helpful to any student
who's faced with a requiredcourse that is going to be
really challenging, and you hadsome strategies there.
So we pulled some of those outand we wanted to talk about them
(14:55):
so that parents can talk totheir students about how to face
this course that may be looming, that they know is going to be
really challenging, but theyhave to get through in order to
pass.
So do you want to start andtalk about some of you know
(15:15):
looking at options?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
So, speaking of options, I started by giving the
example of I you know ratherrashly just picked, I think,
calculus back in 1980, whatever,I wasn't really thinking.
I knew I had a requirement tomeet.
I had, you know, probably beena C student in high school in
math and just did not imaginehow you know behind I would be.
(15:40):
So that was a poor choice.
We did not have the internetback when.
I was in school, and it is.
You know it's kind of mindboggling to think of your
students' opportunities forresearch now.
And you know it used to be thatyou would get the course
catalog from your college.
(16:01):
It was a printed huge volumewith the requirements for every
department right for everydegree, and now those are all
available online.
And I do want to mention too,you know we were talking about
the school's own graduation,general ed, distribution, core
requirements, whatever they'recalled.
(16:23):
But also you know, there arerequirements for certain majors
and again, it's not alwaysstudents with disabilities who
just cannot pass a particularclass.
You don't have to have adisability to just be unable to
pass a certain class.
And so at my previous job, youknow again, I was working in
(16:45):
disability services but we hadstudents who couldn't pass the
statistics class for apsychology major and generally
statistics is required for mostpsychology degrees, which is why
it would have been afundamental alteration to
provide a substitution.
I say this by way of to yourpoint assuming there were also
(17:07):
students without disabilitieswho just were really struggling
with stats.
So I had the advantage of, youknow again, being able to take
French comedy taught in Englishat the school where I was.
So one of the things to do,first of all, your students need
to know what those requirementsare.
(17:28):
I don't know what yourexperience is, vicki, as an
advisor.
You know, are you, when youmeet with students to to
construct their schedules everyweek, are term?
Oh please, not every week, ohGod Are you generally sort of
saying to them, hey, do youremember?
You have to take these things?
You know what?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
goes on in your advising.
I think most of the time andagain it depends very much on
the school and it depends on theadvising system.
There are some schools wherestudents are just on their own
to keep track and know what itis, and there are some where
they may get a little morehandholding.
But it can feel overwhelmingwhen students start, you know as
a freshman, oh sure.
(18:10):
Yeah, but if they constantlykeep looking at okay, this is
what I have to do, this is whatI have to do and every semester,
as they put their scheduletogether, look at what's left
and try to be chipping away atit, I think that helps and then
looking to see whether there areoptions.
(18:33):
So math, for instance okay, I'mrequired to take a math class.
Do I have options for that?
Can it be algebra or calculusor statistics or something else,
or geometry?
You talked about yourexperience with French, my
experience in high school withrequired math.
(18:55):
I struggled with algebra.
Algebra and calculus was like aforeign language for me, but
when I was in geometry, I couldnot wait to get home and do my
homework and I was top of theclass.
It was a different kind ofthinking.
So looking to see are thereoptions to fulfill this
(19:15):
particular requirement I thinkis helpful.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Right and getting some intel if they can.
If the syllabus is availablefor the classes that they're
considering, can they see whatit covers, See if a classmate
has looked at it, Getting asense of how they get assessed
in that class?
Is it two exams and that's it?
Are there weekly problem sets?
(19:41):
That kind of help you at leastbuild a completion grade, if you
will.
So there are lots of differentthings you know.
I'm sure advisors have to becareful if somebody asks them
who's a good professor for?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
you know, for a particular class and what I say
when students, because they askme that all the time is one
person's good, is anotherperson's terrible.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It depends on what you need and what you're looking
for.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Dare I bring up the website that a lot of places
schools don't like.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Rate my Professors is one right Rate, my Professor.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Take it with a grain of salt.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's all I can say, right is one right.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Take it with a grain of salt, that's all I can say.
Right and my advice on that oneis to focus on the consistency
of the comments.
You know, if a number ofstudents keep saying professors
disorganized, the syllabus isnever put together.
You know it happens as we goalong that that's more what I'd
(20:39):
be looking for than individualcomments.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Or if the students are talking to other students
and they say that was the worstprofessor I ever had, always say
why?
Right, and the student may saythat professor did nothing but
lecture all the time.
Well, if I'm a student wholoves you know, just stand and
tell me the information I like,lecture, I want to take note.
Then you know we're going tohave a different opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Absolutely.
Now.
Another way to see what'savailable may be to take a class
at another school.
So that gets a little bittrickier and it's going to
require a lot more homework onthe student's part to identify a
class.
You know, certainly, whereverthey are.
Now, of course, with the world,the wonders of the internet,
(21:28):
they may be able to take thatonline.
I know when my engineeringstudent was looking at schools,
one of them was in a consortiumand they could take classes at
another school that was in theconsortium, so that may be a way
of doing things.
So it's really important tomake sure that the credits will
(21:53):
transfer, to get that in writingfrom the appropriate person and
who that is is not going to beconsistent from school to school
but work, have the student workwith their advisor to, you know
, explore those things, and ifthe advisor has never helped
with that, that could be.
For those of you who haven'theard this term, the registrar
(22:13):
at a college is the one who'ssort of like the, the grand
wizard of classes andregistrations right.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
They keep all the records and the transcripts and
the grades and all of that.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And see if there's somebody in the registrar's
office that can help with that.
I had a story when I was first,when I wrote my first book.
A parent reached out becauseher student had not taken
foreign language and ended uptaking, was told by an
admissions counselor that itwould be no big deal to get a
(22:46):
substitution.
That turned out to be wrong,and then she was looking for
American Sign Language classesbecause she had a language based
learning disability and theonly place she could find one
was a local high school and theywouldn't take the credits
because it wasn't a collegecourse.
So that's maybe not the bestoption, but we just want to
(23:07):
present all the different ways.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well, it can be a good option as long as the
school will accept those creditsand you know that before you
take the course, you don't takethe course and then say, oh, by
the way, I've taken this.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Will you take the credits?
Oh, such a good point, vicki.
You always want it in writingand stored in their email file
somewhere so that should aproblem come up later they can
say but you know, registrarHamblett said I did this was
okay and the other thing thatcan be an issue that you want to
check is is the course that youwant to take somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
the college may say, yes, we'll accept those credits.
That's fine, but is it aprerequisite?
for another course that you needto take later, and will they
accept it as the prereq?
Because you know, if you takeit somewhere else and then the
college says, well, no, yeah,we'll take those credits but
(24:04):
it's not going to count as theprerequisite, then you have to
figure out how that's going towork.
So that's always good to youknow.
Check kind of.
You know why are you taking thecourse?
Are you going to need it forsomething else down the line?
So another option besidestaking it at another school,
(24:30):
which can be fine, is taking aclass pass-fail.
And I think most colleges havesome kind of pass-fail policy,
pass-fail option, maybe notevery one.
So you want to ask and you wantto ask what the policy is so
that it may be that you can takeone course per semester
(24:53):
pass-fail.
It may be.
I know at our school studentsare allowed four pass-fails over
their four years there.
So they can't do one everysemester and they want to choose
carefully because they don'twant to waste a pass-fail early.
And then you know, and theycan't take a pass-fail in their
major Right right, that's animportant thing to know about.
(25:15):
So it's really finding out whatqualifies and for some majors,
like our nursing majors, who arerequired to take some biology
courses as prereqs for theirnursing, they can't take the
prereqs pass-fail.
So you really want to find outall the details.
But if you know what thedetails are and you know when
(25:39):
the deadline for declaring it isand you're really clear on the
policy, taking a difficultcourse, pass, fail.
And when you take a course forpeople who may not be familiar,
you opt for a pass or a fail.
And that means if you pass theclass and it may be with a
certain grade, I know at ourschool the students get to
(26:03):
contract for the grade.
If I get a B or better, I wantthe grade, but if I get below a
B.
But I still pass even with a Dthen I just get a P and it's not
going to affect the GPA.
So does this course qualify?
Is it a prereq?
(26:23):
Would that be a problem?
How many can I take?
Do I want to use it on this?
When do I have to declare?
Do I have to declare in thesecond week of the semester, or
do I get to declare in the 10thweek of the semester, when I
really know you know finding outall of that, and then you take
a course.
Pass fail.
Of course.
Pass fail, as I'm alwaysreminding students, does mean
you still have to pass.
(26:43):
An F is an F is an F.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And again confirm it in writing ahead of time.
There's usually a form you haveto fill out and submit to the
registrar and then you getsomething saying yes, you are
registered to do this pass-fail.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Oh, that's a really good point, too, that they can't
just declare it later.
They have to have permission,and they're right, just like
everything.
There's a really good point,too, that they can't just
declare it later.
They have to have permission,right, just like everything,
there's a form.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and you can't wait until the semester is over
and say, oh, I got a D in thatclass, I want to take it, pass
fail.
So you need to know the policyand ask questions and think of
every possibility and ask aquestion about it and be clear,
because every school does have adifferent policy.
(27:31):
Oh, absolutely so.
Besides researching youroptions and maybe taking courses
other places and maybe taking apass fail, another option is
maybe to take the course duringwinter break or over the summer.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Winter break is sometimes referred to as J-term.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, at some schools they call it a January term or
a J-term.
The problem with J-term orwinter break is it's short with
J-term or winter break is itshort, so you know we have a
three-week break and somestudents take a class in three
(28:16):
weeks.
That means they're doing 15weeks worth of work in three
weeks.
It's a little modified butstill they're doing a whole
course.
Summer classes are usually alittle bit longer, right?
About six?
Right six weeks, excuse me,about six, six weeks.
So there's some advantages anddisadvantages of both.
One of the disadvantages isthat you have to pay.
(28:36):
You know, if you're payingtuition you get to take your
courses during a semester aspart of that tuition.
But summer and winter coursesusually are extra part of that
tuition.
But summer and winter coursesusually are extra.
But there are some pros.
You're only taking one class ata time.
Usually, if you do, you knowthink summer Maybe you'll do one
for the first six-week term andone for a second six-week term.
(28:58):
If there are two terms but oneclass at a time, you can focus
on that class.
It makes it a little easier.
It may meet a little more oftenand that's sometimes good
because it keeps you fresh andit keeps momentum going and that
works.
It's more of an immersionexperience.
Classes in the summer areusually smaller and a little
(29:19):
less formal and that's good.
For some students they're alittle more low-key and in many
places the summer and winterclasses are online.
That can be a pro or a con,depending on.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That can be.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A student needs to really think and say do I do
well in this kind of class ornot?
And so you know, for somestudents online that's great and
for others not so much.
And then you know, thinkingabout the other side, yes,
there's the cost.
The pace is going to be quickerbecause it's, you know, shorter
(29:55):
term, which means absences canmake a huge difference.
So you need to be able toreally commit to being in class
and sometimes those summerclasses meet for longer blocks
of time.
So, if you have trouble sittingfor two or three hours at a time
, you want to think about that.
So again, it's not a cure-allfor everybody, but for some
(30:22):
students that's a great way toapproach a difficult class by
doing it when you're not tryingto split your attention to five
different classes.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
You know, as we're sitting here at the end of
January and I'm huddled in myoffice, you know, wearing three
layers, one of the things thatoccurs to me too is, you know,
sometimes the seasonal stuffwinter it may may feel more, may
feel more conducive to taking aclass, because you know what
else are you going to do if youlive in a cold climate.
And summer, you know you may bedaydreaming looking out the
(30:55):
window.
So you know, when we talk aboutmotivation, you know, as a
student, how are you going tofeel if everybody else is
already off.
You know a lot of your friendshave left campus.
If that's what you're doing andyou were there taking, you know
so many things factor into yourenjoyment and engagement with a
class.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That's just something else to think about and you
know, thinking, as you'rementioning that, about being off
campus, combining taking asummer class with taking the
class at another college,because a number of students say
well, I would take a summerclass, but I live two states
away and I'm not going to stayon campus for six weeks to take
(31:35):
a class, but I might take it atmy local community college so we
can work together.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
So for students who are not going to take it outside
of the regular term, one thingto think about is when are you
going to take these classes?
So if they've got to get done,it can be a good idea and it's
always a good idea to balancewhat you're taking in any given
(32:05):
term.
So I still remember a studentseveral years ago who hated
writing and took all of thewriting courses that they needed
to take in one term.
It didn't go well and theydidn't enjoy it.
This was a very, very stressedstudent and so I get that urge.
(32:30):
But a lot of smart people I knowalways encourage even freshmen.
You know who kind of to yourpoint, vicki get in there and
they see how many things theyhave to take and they think, oh
my gosh, I just have to start.
You know, chipping away at thisstuff right now and I'm going
to load myself up with the worst.
You know the things I dislikethe most.
You know, when I work withstudents I always say well, you
(32:51):
know what's your preference toget the stuff you don't like out
of the way or to start withwhat you like, and this is an
opportunity to balance.
So try not to take the twoclasses that you are most
worried about in the same term,spread them out.
Something to think about is, ifyou've evaluated all the
different options for this, payattention to when they're
(33:12):
offered, because, like you know,I took this biological
psychology class in college.
I'm not sure it was offered inthe fall and the spring, and so
you need that's the student'sjob to know when the classes
they want to take are held.
You know, if that's the onethey've absolutely decided they
must take or they've gottenpermission from the registrar to
take as a substitution, it's onthem to make sure that it's
(33:36):
going to work into their youknow, into their course progress
before they graduate.
Colleges are not required toallow you to come back for free
in the fall because you didn'ttake that one last class you
needed.
So can you take the class thatyou find really challenging
alongside some classes that youdon't find as challenging?
(34:00):
Can you, if you have to takefive classes in two terms, just
to meet the proper number ofcredits to graduate?
Perhaps do the class you findchallenging in the terms where
you don't take five classes, orif one of them can be something
that doesn't require homework,like weightlifting, yoga, dance,
(34:21):
whatever.
It is just something whereyou'll have the mental bandwidth
to deal with the class and forsome students with disabilities,
a reduced course load may be anaccommodation that they are
allowed, where they still haveto take a certain number of
credits every term, but perhapsfewer than would be required to
(34:44):
stay in the dorms, be in theschool activities.
That could be a good time totake it.
So, vicki, you were going toadd.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Well, yeah, one thing that occurred to me as you were
talking about.
You know balancing.
I find when I'm working withathletes, I always ask them do
you do better when you're inseason'm?
not in season because I havemore time and I'm not as
(35:32):
stressed and I'm not as tired,and that's better.
And then I have other athleteswho say oh, I want to take the
difficult ones when I'm inseason because I'm very
disciplined, I have a schedule,I have a routine, the coach is
all over me all the time, so sonot just balancing hard and easy
classes or different types ofclasses, but also thinking about
(35:55):
what else is going on in yourlife and when do you want to do
it?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
really good advice um so.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
So there's just really, I think maybe maybe one
more that we wanted to talkabout specifically and then
think about some things that aretrue for all classes, and that
is really just to think aboutsequencing of classes.
We already talked aboutprerequisites, you know, making
(36:23):
sure you know if something is arequired course and it's a
prerequisite, and I think that'sa term most people know that
means you have to take thatbefore you can take something
else.
To really think about that.
But also, if you have,especially if you have to take
more than one class in an areathat are going to be difficult
(36:46):
for you, really thinking abouttaking them back to back so that
you don't lose momentum.
When I'm working with trying todo schedules with students, new
students who are coming out ofhigh school, first-year students
in the summer, before they come, we do their schedule and they
(37:09):
often say you know they'rerequired to take a math class
and they say you know I reallydon't like math.
You know I did okay in highschool, but I really hate math.
I really don't want to takemath my first semester and
that's their option, and forsome students that makes sense,
they take a break, but for otherstudents, once we talk about it
(37:31):
and we say you don't like math,but you had to do math all
through high school.
You probably right now knowmore math than you're ever going
to know, and the longer youwait, the less you're going to
know.
So why not take it while it'sfresh in your mind?
You're coming off all the mathyou did in high school and doing
(37:52):
it, and many students then say,oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I get it.
Yeah, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So just really thinking about sequencing.
And the other thing aboutsequencing is, if you have to do
more than one, make sure youkeep the textbook for the first
one.
Make sure you keep all yournotes, all your tests, all your,
everything from that firstclass so that you can review
(38:19):
them and come up to speed andhave a little help when you're
taking the tough one when you'retaking the tough one.
So there are lots of things tothink about that can make taking
those tough classes.
I don't know if I want to sayeasier, but can make it
(38:40):
manageable.
Manageable is a good word.
I like that.
Let's set the bar low.
Successful, yes, manageable.
Manageable is a good word.
I like that.
Yeah, let's set the bar low andsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Well, let's set the bar high.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And then there are just, you know, some things that
are standard in any class, thatanybody takes, but really to
keep in mind it's worthreminding your student about,
you know, and that is talk tothe professor, work with the
professor, use the professor'soffice hours.
The professor wants to help you.
So don't just struggle insilence.
Get tutoring.
(39:14):
Most every college has atutoring center and sometimes
they're professional tutors andsometimes they're peer tutors
and peer tutors.
I think as parents sometimes wesay oh, you know, I want you to
work with a professional tutor,I don't want you to just work
with another student.
But sometimes peer tutors canbe really excellent helpers
(39:38):
because they've been in theclass, they know where the
struggles are, they know theprofessor and professional
tutors.
Sometimes you know I'm tutoringmath because I'm great at math,
so I don't understand yourstruggle, and so it may be.
(39:58):
You know a help.
And if you're going to usetutoring starting early so that
you can don't wait till you'restarting early, so that you can
don't wait till you're havingtrouble, start early and work
regularly with the tutor.
The tutor gets to know you,gets to know your strengths,
your weaknesses, so by the timeyou hit a tough spot, they
already know you.
(40:19):
Keeping a planner, you know.
Keep track of your assignments,look ahead, know what's ahead.
Basically, just do the work andstay up to date and not fall
behind.
That's for any student in anyclass, but they're especially
important in those difficultclasses.
(40:40):
I want to say one more thingbefore we kind of wind this up.
I know we really need to um,because we're going on and on,
because these are things thatmatter to us, um, and that is,
you know, sometimes we'retalking about how to make these
difficult classes manageable andsuccessful, and that's really
important.
(41:01):
But sometimes it's important, Ithink, to keep in mind that
there are advantages to takinghard classes, that avoiding them
is not the goal.
If you can, you know, manage totake a hard class, you learn
how to do difficult things, andthat's a quality that's going to
(41:22):
help students throughout theirlives.
They learn some coping skillsand some strategies for how to
manage themselves when they hitthe wall, when they hit things
that are different, andsometimes they discover new
abilities that they didn't knowthey had.
They find out that they'recapable of more than they really
(41:43):
thought they could do.
They rise to the challenge andthen, when you do face these
difficult, challenging, requiredclasses and you make it through
, there's nothing like thatfeeling of success, of knowing
that you did something reallyhard and you succeeded.
(42:05):
You know you did somethingreally hard and you succeeded.
So, um, you know, seeing it,seeing, not just the course is
challenging, but taking on thechallenge of doing a tough thing
can really be good.
So what do we have?
Bottom line make a plan.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Yeah, make a plan.
It may have to be done, so dowhat you can to manage it and
make it, you know, achievable.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
And get help, be a little creative in how you
approach it and stay positive asyou're doing it.
I like that, yeah, so hopefullyparents can have some
conversations with theirstudents.
When the students look at thethings that are ahead and say
I'm never going to be able to dothis, this is required and it's
(42:53):
challenging.
How am I going to get through?
And there are lots of thingsthat they can think about and do
.
So hopefully it will be helpfuland there are lots of people at
every college who are there tohelp your student and keep
reminding them of that andpointing them toward the
resources that they have.
(43:15):
Absolutely so.
Thank you to everybody whostuck with us here to the end,
and if you know someone elsethat might be able to use some
of this information, pleaseshare this podcast with them.
Word of Mouth is our bestadvertisement, and we hope
you'll be back and join us againnext time.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all kinds of things
that have to do with parenting acollege student, or a student
who may be thinking about orgetting ready to go to college,
and sometimes even thosestudents who have graduated from
college, and sometimes eventhose students who have
(01:05):
graduated from college.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication
at a small liberal arts school,and I have also served for a few
years as a director of academicadvising.
And, probably just as important, I am the mother of three
daughters, who have all gone tocollege and come out on the
(01:27):
other side.
So I look at this topic ofcollege parenting both as a
professional who works withstudents every day and also
having lived it as a parent.
And I am here today with one ofour co-hosts, elizabeth.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Hamblett and I'm going to let her introduce
herself and then I'm going totalk about what we're going to
talk about today.
Okay, I'm Elizabeth Hamblettand I work part-time as a
university college, universitycollege my goodness, college
learning disability specialist.
That's what I do.
We're both having difficultytoday.
It's been a long January, folks,so I work one-on-one with
students registered with ouroffice on things like time
(02:11):
management and organization andreading and writing strategies
all those things that I love somuch and in my spare time I do a
lot of writing and speaking onpreparing students with
disabilities for successfulcollege transition, which is a
little bit of the things thatyou both talk about in terms of
(02:34):
working with students withlearning differences also apply
to all the students, I see.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So you know they're general things, and what we want
to talk about today has to dowith when students have to take
challenging courses, andespecially when those courses
are required and they don't havea choice.
Most colleges require somegeneral education or
(03:15):
distribution courses.
They call them different thingsand, elizabeth, you can help me
out here.
I don't think in most casesstudents can get an
accommodation to skip the classentirely.
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
It is like a likelihood that I can't really
speak to.
I can talk about sort of thelegal aspects of this,
specifically for students withdisabilities, if that's where
you want to start.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, I'm just thinking that.
You know students may feel well, I'm going to have an
accommodation because I have alearning difference, so you know
if I'll pick on something mathmaybe I'm projecting here
because of how I felt about math, math is really hard for me, so
(04:10):
I'm sure my accommodation willlet me skip taking a math class.
That's the sort of thing, and Ithink most of the time that's
not going to be the case.
There are going to be ways tohelp level the playing field,
but not get out of it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
I always have to start by prefacing that this is
neither legal nor medical advice, because it's very important.
You know I've been in the fieldfor more than 25 years and I
stay active in my community.
But essentially you know fromwhat I get from the experts that
I listen to.
Colleges have to consider anyrequests that students with
(04:48):
disabilities specifically make,and that could include a course
substitution.
So you brought up math studentswith dyscalculia, for instance,
might say I just cannot pass amath class at the college level
and it's a little bit.
It seems contradictory to meand I haven't quite figured out
(05:09):
how it's not.
But here's what I mean.
Colleges should and I wouldassume most of them have, but
again I don't have any numberson this have figured out what
their core curriculum is.
There should have been acommittee of involved people
saying we require everybody whograduates from Hamlet University
(05:31):
to have taken whatever thecourses are for their major, as
well as two in this area, two inthis area, two in this area,
which is what we refer to assort of a traditional liberal
arts education where you studyin different areas, so they are
allowed to decide that, havingmade those decisions.
(05:52):
It would be a fundamentalalteration of their degree
requirements to allow a studentto substitute one of those
courses.
So it always feels strange tome when I explain this, because
a college can basically be inthe position of saying there
isn't any argument anybody'sever going to bring to us that
is going to change that fact,and yet we are required by the
(06:17):
Office for Civil Rights to stillreview any requests that come
in.
So I want to be very clear.
Do not take this conversationat all to mean that you know, if
you find out, hamlet Universityhas established all these
requirements, your studentsshould not request a
substitution.
My mantra is your studentsshould request any accommodation
(06:39):
for disability that theybelieve that they need.
Whether that will get grantedis based on too many variables
to address, so they shouldalways ask.
And so the genesis of thisconversation, vicki right, was a
blog post that I have up on mysite because, to your point I
(07:03):
think, so often the things thatI talk about in my work, trying
to talk to professionals andparents about what the college
disability service environment,you know, looks like what people
can and can't expect.
Sometimes that advice crossesover into being good advice
generally for students, you know, without disabilities, and so
(07:26):
you know, my best example ofthis is myself, and there's
nothing more boring thanlistening, probably, to a
podcast host talk about herself.
But it is interesting because Iwas in college in the mid and
late 80s and I was taking Frenchbecause I wanted to learn it
(07:46):
anew and our school required sixsemesters of language, which is
unusual, wow.
Yes, for undergrads andnon-engineering.
My husband graduated with anengineering degree.
He didn't have to do anyforeign language, which is
something that we know we shouldtouch on as well.
So I started in a class where,I think, possibly because of
(08:09):
this requirement, a lot ofstudents just took again
whatever language they hadstudied in high school.
And so I still remember myfreshman, first year, first
semester French class, beingmyself and two other students
who hadn't taken French.
Everybody else had taken itthroughout high school, and you
(08:30):
know now, as somebody whounderstands learning, I realized
the professor never wroteanything on the board, she just
spoke.
It was meant to be immersive,but because I did not see the
words, just because of the way Ilearn and in learning styles
are not supported by research,but because of my learning
(08:50):
strengths and weaknesses I wasunable to link the words she was
saying with the words.
And I remember being in thelanguage lab for those of us old
enough to remember that andseeing words she had been saying
all term and finally putting ittogether.
So I, you know, truth be told,I did not apply myself very much
(09:14):
to my French.
I did not seek tutoring, exceptonce, I think so that's on me
and I made it scrambling throughthe fifth class and the
professor looked at me and shesaid you will not pass the
literature level and that's next, and I needed this to graduate.
Again, no disability, just somestrengths and weaknesses.
(09:34):
I did not need any specialpermission to take French.
Comedy taught in English, andthat is among the reasons I sit
before you.
A college graduate, I also wentto a school that required two
semesters of any combination, atthat time, of math and science.
(09:55):
I dropped out of calculus witha 40 average, that's probably
better than I would have had.
You've never seen a professorsign a drop slip so fast in your
life, um, and I think shemight've said I don't really
know how you ended up here, andI didn't really either but um,
and managed to graduate, havingtaken physical anthropology and
(10:18):
biological psychology, which youknow we're still challenging.
That one was still challengingfor me.
So you know, if we're going tostart with, I would like to even
start before they get tocollege.
Okay, because often when I amgiving my presentations on
preparing students for college,one of the things that I do
(10:40):
address is the fact thatstudents may not get a
substitution for classes thatare extremely challenging for
them, but one of the things thatthey can do is check the
graduation requirements for thecolleges that they're looking at
and also check if they'veidentified a major those
requirements, that's a good idea, because it is possible to
(11:03):
attend a school that doesn'trequire the things that you find
really challenging.
I am the parent of an art schoolgrad and an engineering school
grad and none of my kids had todo the kinds of things I had to.
They didn't have those generaleducation requirements and they
were delighted.
And so you know, if you'regoing to spend all that money
(11:25):
and all that time, it is a goodidea to look at what they
require.
You know, there are someschools with very intensive core
requirements and maybe that'sjust not your student's
preference and that's a reallygreat decision to make.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
That's really really good advice, and you know.
The other thing about startingto think about this in high
school is if there is a schoolthat you really want to go to
that has a requirement that youthink is going to be really
tough to find out.
If there is, instead ofavoiding it in high school, see
(12:01):
if you can take something thatclass or related to it while
you're in high school to helpyou have the background and
foundation and come up to speedby the time you get to this
required level class in college.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
And what's interesting, when I was
researching stuff from my latestbook, one of the things that I
learned was that there arecolleges and this is again back
to students with disabilitieswho might get admitted to a
college having not met theirentrance requirements, for
instance, for math or forforeign language, and some of
(12:38):
those colleges require thosestudents to then take those
classes in order to graduate.
And I think it was one of theFlorida State I mean, this has
been a few years now I think itwas one of the Florida State
universities and it may besystem-wide for them.
I'm not sure where I identifiedthat policy.
So these are things to keep inmind, you know, and for the
(13:01):
parents of students withdisabilities and I am using
disability for a specific reasonVicki used differences I use
disability because it has to bea disability to get accommodated
at college, and so that's just,that's not that I I don't think
of disability as a bad word,but anyway.
So it can be really important,if you're looking at these
(13:23):
requirements and your studentdoesn't meet the entrance
requirements and gets admittedto Hamlet University, to ask and
I don't even know who you wouldspeak to about this whether
that university would requireyour student to then take those
credits there, because that'ssomething I think a lot of
people don't expect Lots ofquestions to ask even before you
(13:45):
get started.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, and lots to think about.
And again, just a reminder thatwe are not, you know, in the
things that we've gottenourselves way off from what we
were going to talk about, but it, but it's it's it's important
information, um, but that itwe're we're not, as we go
through, exclusively talkingabout students with disabilities
(14:09):
, um, because I'm the one that'sconstantly saying you know
everything you're saying aboutstudents with disabilities other
than the you know, gettingaccommodations applies to
students without disabilities,absolutely, and thinking about
that.
So it was your you mentioned, itwas your blog post on LD
(14:34):
Advisory, your website that Ilooked at and said, wow, this is
all information that would bereally helpful to any student
who's faced with a requiredcourse that is going to be
really challenging, and you hadsome strategies there.
So we pulled some of those outand we wanted to talk about them
(14:55):
so that parents can talk totheir students about how to face
this course that may be looming, that they know is going to be
really challenging, but theyhave to get through in order to
pass.
So do you want to start andtalk about some of you know
(15:15):
looking at options?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
So, speaking of options, I started by giving the
example of I you know ratherrashly just picked, I think,
calculus back in 1980, whatever,I wasn't really thinking.
I knew I had a requirement tomeet.
I had, you know, probably beena C student in high school in
math and just did not imaginehow you know behind I would be.
(15:40):
So that was a poor choice.
We did not have the internetback when.
I was in school, and it is.
You know it's kind of mindboggling to think of your
students' opportunities forresearch now.
And you know it used to be thatyou would get the course
catalog from your college.
(16:01):
It was a printed huge volumewith the requirements for every
department right for everydegree, and now those are all
available online.
And I do want to mention too,you know we were talking about
the school's own graduation,general ed, distribution, core
requirements, whatever they'recalled.
(16:23):
But also you know, there arerequirements for certain majors
and again, it's not alwaysstudents with disabilities who
just cannot pass a particularclass.
You don't have to have adisability to just be unable to
pass a certain class.
And so at my previous job, youknow again, I was working in
(16:45):
disability services but we hadstudents who couldn't pass the
statistics class for apsychology major and generally
statistics is required for mostpsychology degrees, which is why
it would have been afundamental alteration to
provide a substitution.
I say this by way of to yourpoint assuming there were also
(17:07):
students without disabilitieswho just were really struggling
with stats.
So I had the advantage of, youknow again, being able to take
French comedy taught in Englishat the school where I was.
So one of the things to do,first of all, your students need
to know what those requirementsare.
(17:28):
I don't know what yourexperience is, vicki, as an
advisor.
You know, are you, when youmeet with students to to
construct their schedules everyweek, are term?
Oh please, not every week, ohGod Are you generally sort of
saying to them, hey, do youremember?
You have to take these things?
You know what?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
goes on in your advising.
I think most of the time andagain it depends very much on
the school and it depends on theadvising system.
There are some schools wherestudents are just on their own
to keep track and know what itis, and there are some where
they may get a little morehandholding.
But it can feel overwhelmingwhen students start, you know as
a freshman, oh sure.
(18:10):
Yeah, but if they constantlykeep looking at okay, this is
what I have to do, this is whatI have to do and every semester,
as they put their scheduletogether, look at what's left
and try to be chipping away atit, I think that helps and then
looking to see whether there areoptions.
(18:33):
So math, for instance okay, I'mrequired to take a math class.
Do I have options for that?
Can it be algebra or calculusor statistics or something else,
or geometry?
You talked about yourexperience with French, my
experience in high school withrequired math.
(18:55):
I struggled with algebra.
Algebra and calculus was like aforeign language for me, but
when I was in geometry, I couldnot wait to get home and do my
homework and I was top of theclass.
It was a different kind ofthinking.
So looking to see are thereoptions to fulfill this
(19:15):
particular requirement I thinkis helpful.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Right and getting some intel if they can.
If the syllabus is availablefor the classes that they're
considering, can they see whatit covers, See if a classmate
has looked at it, Getting asense of how they get assessed
in that class?
Is it two exams and that's it?
Are there weekly problem sets?
(19:41):
That kind of help you at leastbuild a completion grade, if you
will.
So there are lots of differentthings you know.
I'm sure advisors have to becareful if somebody asks them
who's a good professor for?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
you know, for a particular class and what I say
when students, because they askme that all the time is one
person's good, is anotherperson's terrible.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I think that's right.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It depends on what you need and what you're looking
for.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Dare I bring up the website that a lot of places
schools don't like.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Rate my Professors is one right Rate, my Professor.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Take it with a grain of salt.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's all I can say, right is one right.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Take it with a grain of salt, that's all I can say.
Right and my advice on that oneis to focus on the consistency
of the comments.
You know, if a number ofstudents keep saying professors
disorganized, the syllabus isnever put together.
You know it happens as we goalong that that's more what I'd
(20:39):
be looking for than individualcomments.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Or if the students are talking to other students
and they say that was the worstprofessor I ever had, always say
why?
Right, and the student may saythat professor did nothing but
lecture all the time.
Well, if I'm a student wholoves you know, just stand and
tell me the information I like,lecture, I want to take note.
Then you know we're going tohave a different opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Absolutely.
Now.
Another way to see what'savailable may be to take a class
at another school.
So that gets a little bittrickier and it's going to
require a lot more homework onthe student's part to identify a
class.
You know, certainly, whereverthey are.
Now, of course, with the world,the wonders of the internet,
(21:28):
they may be able to take thatonline.
I know when my engineeringstudent was looking at schools,
one of them was in a consortiumand they could take classes at
another school that was in theconsortium, so that may be a way
of doing things.
So it's really important tomake sure that the credits will
(21:53):
transfer, to get that in writingfrom the appropriate person and
who that is is not going to beconsistent from school to school
but work, have the student workwith their advisor to, you know
, explore those things, and ifthe advisor has never helped
with that, that could be.
For those of you who haven'theard this term, the registrar
(22:13):
at a college is the one who'ssort of like the, the grand
wizard of classes andregistrations right.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
They keep all the records and the transcripts and
the grades and all of that.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
And see if there's somebody in the registrar's
office that can help with that.
I had a story when I was first,when I wrote my first book.
A parent reached out becauseher student had not taken
foreign language and ended uptaking, was told by an
admissions counselor that itwould be no big deal to get a
(22:46):
substitution.
That turned out to be wrong,and then she was looking for
American Sign Language classesbecause she had a language based
learning disability and theonly place she could find one
was a local high school and theywouldn't take the credits
because it wasn't a collegecourse.
So that's maybe not the bestoption, but we just want to
(23:07):
present all the different ways.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well, it can be a good option as long as the
school will accept those creditsand you know that before you
take the course, you don't takethe course and then say, oh, by
the way, I've taken this.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Will you take the credits?
Oh, such a good point, vicki.
You always want it in writingand stored in their email file
somewhere so that should aproblem come up later they can
say but you know, registrarHamblett said I did this was
okay and the other thing thatcan be an issue that you want to
check is is the course that youwant to take somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
the college may say, yes, we'll accept those credits.
That's fine, but is it aprerequisite?
for another course that you needto take later, and will they
accept it as the prereq?
Because you know, if you takeit somewhere else and then the
college says, well, no, yeah,we'll take those credits but
(24:04):
it's not going to count as theprerequisite, then you have to
figure out how that's going towork.
So that's always good to youknow.
Check kind of.
You know why are you taking thecourse?
Are you going to need it forsomething else down the line?
So another option besidestaking it at another school,
(24:30):
which can be fine, is taking aclass pass-fail.
And I think most colleges havesome kind of pass-fail policy,
pass-fail option, maybe notevery one.
So you want to ask and you wantto ask what the policy is so
that it may be that you can takeone course per semester
(24:53):
pass-fail.
It may be.
I know at our school studentsare allowed four pass-fails over
their four years there.
So they can't do one everysemester and they want to choose
carefully because they don'twant to waste a pass-fail early.
And then you know, and theycan't take a pass-fail in their
major Right right, that's animportant thing to know about.
(25:15):
So it's really finding out whatqualifies and for some majors,
like our nursing majors, who arerequired to take some biology
courses as prereqs for theirnursing, they can't take the
prereqs pass-fail.
So you really want to find outall the details.
But if you know what thedetails are and you know when
(25:39):
the deadline for declaring it isand you're really clear on the
policy, taking a difficultcourse, pass, fail.
And when you take a course forpeople who may not be familiar,
you opt for a pass or a fail.
And that means if you pass theclass and it may be with a
certain grade, I know at ourschool the students get to
(26:03):
contract for the grade.
If I get a B or better, I wantthe grade, but if I get below a
B.
But I still pass even with a Dthen I just get a P and it's not
going to affect the GPA.
So does this course qualify?
Is it a prereq?
(26:23):
Would that be a problem?
How many can I take?
Do I want to use it on this?
When do I have to declare?
Do I have to declare in thesecond week of the semester, or
do I get to declare in the 10thweek of the semester, when I
really know you know finding outall of that, and then you take
a course.
Pass fail.
Of course.
Pass fail, as I'm alwaysreminding students, does mean
you still have to pass.
(26:43):
An F is an F is an F.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And again confirm it in writing ahead of time.
There's usually a form you haveto fill out and submit to the
registrar and then you getsomething saying yes, you are
registered to do this pass-fail.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Oh, that's a really good point, too, that they can't
just declare it later.
They have to have permission,and they're right, just like
everything.
There's a really good point,too, that they can't just
declare it later.
They have to have permission,right, just like everything,
there's a form.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and you can't wait until the semester is over
and say, oh, I got a D in thatclass, I want to take it, pass
fail.
So you need to know the policyand ask questions and think of
every possibility and ask aquestion about it and be clear,
because every school does have adifferent policy.
(27:31):
Oh, absolutely so.
Besides researching youroptions and maybe taking courses
other places and maybe taking apass fail, another option is
maybe to take the course duringwinter break or over the summer.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Winter break is sometimes referred to as J-term.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, at some schools they call it a January term or
a J-term.
The problem with J-term orwinter break is it's short with
J-term or winter break is itshort, so you know we have a
three-week break and somestudents take a class in three
(28:16):
weeks.
That means they're doing 15weeks worth of work in three
weeks.
It's a little modified butstill they're doing a whole
course.
Summer classes are usually alittle bit longer, right?
About six?
Right six weeks, excuse me,about six, six weeks.
So there's some advantages anddisadvantages of both.
One of the disadvantages isthat you have to pay.
(28:36):
You know, if you're payingtuition you get to take your
courses during a semester aspart of that tuition.
But summer and winter coursesusually are extra part of that
tuition.
But summer and winter coursesusually are extra.
But there are some pros.
You're only taking one class ata time.
Usually, if you do, you knowthink summer Maybe you'll do one
for the first six-week term andone for a second six-week term.
(28:58):
If there are two terms but oneclass at a time, you can focus
on that class.
It makes it a little easier.
It may meet a little more oftenand that's sometimes good
because it keeps you fresh andit keeps momentum going and that
works.
It's more of an immersionexperience.
Classes in the summer areusually smaller and a little
(29:19):
less formal and that's good.
For some students they're alittle more low-key and in many
places the summer and winterclasses are online.
That can be a pro or a con,depending on.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That can be.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A student needs to really think and say do I do
well in this kind of class ornot?
And so you know, for somestudents online that's great and
for others not so much.
And then you know, thinkingabout the other side, yes,
there's the cost.
The pace is going to be quickerbecause it's, you know, shorter
(29:55):
term, which means absences canmake a huge difference.
So you need to be able toreally commit to being in class
and sometimes those summerclasses meet for longer blocks
of time.
So, if you have trouble sittingfor two or three hours at a time
, you want to think about that.
So again, it's not a cure-allfor everybody, but for some
(30:22):
students that's a great way toapproach a difficult class by
doing it when you're not tryingto split your attention to five
different classes.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
You know, as we're sitting here at the end of
January and I'm huddled in myoffice, you know, wearing three
layers, one of the things thatoccurs to me too is, you know,
sometimes the seasonal stuffwinter it may may feel more, may
feel more conducive to taking aclass, because you know what
else are you going to do if youlive in a cold climate.
And summer, you know you may bedaydreaming looking out the
(30:55):
window.
So you know, when we talk aboutmotivation, you know, as a
student, how are you going tofeel if everybody else is
already off.
You know a lot of your friendshave left campus.
If that's what you're doing andyou were there taking, you know
so many things factor into yourenjoyment and engagement with a
class.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
That's just something else to think about and you
know, thinking, as you'rementioning that, about being off
campus, combining taking asummer class with taking the
class at another college,because a number of students say
well, I would take a summerclass, but I live two states
away and I'm not going to stayon campus for six weeks to take
(31:35):
a class, but I might take it atmy local community college so we
can work together.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
So for students who are not going to take it outside
of the regular term, one thingto think about is when are you
going to take these classes?
So if they've got to get done,it can be a good idea and it's
always a good idea to balancewhat you're taking in any given
(32:05):
term.
So I still remember a studentseveral years ago who hated
writing and took all of thewriting courses that they needed
to take in one term.
It didn't go well and theydidn't enjoy it.
This was a very, very stressedstudent and so I get that urge.
(32:30):
But a lot of smart people I knowalways encourage even freshmen.
You know who kind of to yourpoint, vicki get in there and
they see how many things theyhave to take and they think, oh
my gosh, I just have to start.
You know, chipping away at thisstuff right now and I'm going
to load myself up with the worst.
You know the things I dislikethe most.
You know, when I work withstudents I always say well, you
(32:51):
know what's your preference toget the stuff you don't like out
of the way or to start withwhat you like, and this is an
opportunity to balance.
So try not to take the twoclasses that you are most
worried about in the same term,spread them out.
Something to think about is, ifyou've evaluated all the
different options for this, payattention to when they're
(33:12):
offered, because, like you know,I took this biological
psychology class in college.
I'm not sure it was offered inthe fall and the spring, and so
you need that's the student'sjob to know when the classes
they want to take are held.
You know, if that's the onethey've absolutely decided they
must take or they've gottenpermission from the registrar to
take as a substitution, it's onthem to make sure that it's
(33:36):
going to work into their youknow, into their course progress
before they graduate.
Colleges are not required toallow you to come back for free
in the fall because you didn'ttake that one last class you
needed.
So can you take the class thatyou find really challenging
alongside some classes that youdon't find as challenging?
(34:00):
Can you, if you have to takefive classes in two terms, just
to meet the proper number ofcredits to graduate?
Perhaps do the class you findchallenging in the terms where
you don't take five classes, orif one of them can be something
that doesn't require homework,like weightlifting, yoga, dance,
(34:21):
whatever.
It is just something whereyou'll have the mental bandwidth
to deal with the class and forsome students with disabilities,
a reduced course load may be anaccommodation that they are
allowed, where they still haveto take a certain number of
credits every term, but perhapsfewer than would be required to
(34:44):
stay in the dorms, be in theschool activities.
That could be a good time totake it.
So, vicki, you were going toadd.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Well, yeah, one thing that occurred to me as you were
talking about.
You know balancing.
I find when I'm working withathletes, I always ask them do
you do better when you're inseason'm?
not in season because I havemore time and I'm not as
(35:32):
stressed and I'm not as tired,and that's better.
And then I have other athleteswho say oh, I want to take the
difficult ones when I'm inseason because I'm very
disciplined, I have a schedule,I have a routine, the coach is
all over me all the time, so sonot just balancing hard and easy
classes or different types ofclasses, but also thinking about
(35:55):
what else is going on in yourlife and when do you want to do
it?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
really good advice um so.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
So there's just really, I think maybe maybe one
more that we wanted to talkabout specifically and then
think about some things that aretrue for all classes, and that
is really just to think aboutsequencing of classes.
We already talked aboutprerequisites, you know, making
(36:23):
sure you know if something is arequired course and it's a
prerequisite, and I think that'sa term most people know that
means you have to take thatbefore you can take something
else.
To really think about that.
But also, if you have,especially if you have to take
more than one class in an areathat are going to be difficult
(36:46):
for you, really thinking abouttaking them back to back so that
you don't lose momentum.
When I'm working with trying todo schedules with students, new
students who are coming out ofhigh school, first-year students
in the summer, before they come, we do their schedule and they
(37:09):
often say you know they'rerequired to take a math class
and they say you know I reallydon't like math.
You know I did okay in highschool, but I really hate math.
I really don't want to takemath my first semester and
that's their option, and forsome students that makes sense,
they take a break, but for otherstudents, once we talk about it
(37:31):
and we say you don't like math,but you had to do math all
through high school.
You probably right now knowmore math than you're ever going
to know, and the longer youwait, the less you're going to
know.
So why not take it while it'sfresh in your mind?
You're coming off all the mathyou did in high school and doing
(37:52):
it, and many students then say,oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I get it.
Yeah, I want to do it.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So just really thinking about sequencing.
And the other thing aboutsequencing is, if you have to do
more than one, make sure youkeep the textbook for the first
one.
Make sure you keep all yournotes, all your tests, all your,
everything from that firstclass so that you can review
(38:19):
them and come up to speed andhave a little help when you're
taking the tough one when you'retaking the tough one.
So there are lots of things tothink about that can make taking
those tough classes.
I don't know if I want to sayeasier, but can make it
(38:40):
manageable.
Manageable is a good word.
I like that.
Let's set the bar low.
Successful, yes, manageable.
Manageable is a good word.
I like that.
Yeah, let's set the bar low andsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Well, let's set the bar high.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And then there are just, you know, some things that
are standard in any class, thatanybody takes, but really to
keep in mind it's worthreminding your student about,
you know, and that is talk tothe professor, work with the
professor, use the professor'soffice hours.
The professor wants to help you.
So don't just struggle insilence.
Get tutoring.
(39:14):
Most every college has atutoring center and sometimes
they're professional tutors andsometimes they're peer tutors
and peer tutors.
I think as parents sometimes wesay oh, you know, I want you to
work with a professional tutor,I don't want you to just work
with another student.
But sometimes peer tutors canbe really excellent helpers
(39:38):
because they've been in theclass, they know where the
struggles are, they know theprofessor and professional
tutors.
Sometimes you know I'm tutoringmath because I'm great at math,
so I don't understand yourstruggle, and so it may be.
(39:58):
You know a help.
And if you're going to usetutoring starting early so that
you can don't wait till you'restarting early, so that you can
don't wait till you're havingtrouble, start early and work
regularly with the tutor.
The tutor gets to know you,gets to know your strengths,
your weaknesses, so by the timeyou hit a tough spot, they
already know you.
(40:19):
Keeping a planner, you know.
Keep track of your assignments,look ahead, know what's ahead.
Basically, just do the work andstay up to date and not fall
behind.
That's for any student in anyclass, but they're especially
important in those difficultclasses.
(40:40):
I want to say one more thingbefore we kind of wind this up.
I know we really need to um,because we're going on and on,
because these are things thatmatter to us, um, and that is,
you know, sometimes we'retalking about how to make these
difficult classes manageable andsuccessful, and that's really
important.
(41:01):
But sometimes it's important, Ithink, to keep in mind that
there are advantages to takinghard classes, that avoiding them
is not the goal.
If you can, you know, manage totake a hard class, you learn
how to do difficult things, andthat's a quality that's going to
(41:22):
help students throughout theirlives.
They learn some coping skillsand some strategies for how to
manage themselves when they hitthe wall, when they hit things
that are different, andsometimes they discover new
abilities that they didn't knowthey had.
They find out that they'recapable of more than they really
(41:43):
thought they could do.
They rise to the challenge andthen, when you do face these
difficult, challenging, requiredclasses and you make it through
, there's nothing like thatfeeling of success, of knowing
that you did something reallyhard and you succeeded.
(42:05):
You know you did somethingreally hard and you succeeded.
So, um, you know, seeing it,seeing, not just the course is
challenging, but taking on thechallenge of doing a tough thing
can really be good.
So what do we have?
Bottom line make a plan.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Yeah, make a plan.
It may have to be done, so dowhat you can to manage it and
make it, you know, achievable.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
And get help, be a little creative in how you
approach it and stay positive asyou're doing it.
I like that, yeah, so hopefullyparents can have some
conversations with theirstudents.
When the students look at thethings that are ahead and say
I'm never going to be able to dothis, this is required and it's
(42:53):
challenging.
How am I going to get through?
And there are lots of thingsthat they can think about and do
.
So hopefully it will be helpfuland there are lots of people at
every college who are there tohelp your student and keep
reminding them of that andpointing them toward the
resources that they have.
(43:15):
Absolutely so.
Thank you to everybody whostuck with us here to the end,
and if you know someone elsethat might be able to use some
of this information, pleaseshare this podcast with them.
Word of Mouth is our bestadvertisement, and we hope
you'll be back and join us againnext time.
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