April 16, 2025 • 44 mins
You send your student off to college and you’re already anticipating that Commencement Ceremony four years later. But traditional four-year college timelines are becoming less common as students forge their own unique educational paths. In this episode, Vicki and Lynn explore the various ways students navigate higher education today – from gap years that build maturity and purpose to mid-college breaks and an extra fifth year college experience. We discuss how these experiences often lead to greater confidence, improved communication skills, and most importantly, a clearer sense of purpose. We also emphasize how embracing flexibility in college planning and supporting your student's unique journey can lead to greater success and fulfillment in college and beyond. What timeline might work best for your student?
Thank you for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts, vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration ofthe amazing child in college.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
We're glad you are back with us, or with us for the first time.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all kinds of things
that have to do with parentingthe college student or a student
about to go to college, gettingready to go to college, perhaps
still in high school, andsometimes about students who are
(01:10):
finished with college andmoving on to the next stage.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication,
and so I work with studentsevery day, but I am also the mom
of three daughters, who haveall gone to college and finished
and moved on.
(01:31):
So I come to this topic both asa professional in higher
education and as a mom, and I amhere, as I so often am, with my
friend and my co-host, and Iwill let her introduce herself.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Hi everyone.
My name is Lynn Abrahams, veryhappy to be here today.
I also have that two-prongedsort of approach here.
I come to this both as aprofessional and as a parent.
I have worked with collegestudents who have learning
(02:08):
differences for my entire careerand I'm also the mom of two
sons who have been in, outthrough around college.
So it's an important topic andsometimes our stories about our
own kids come through first.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right, and they haven't disowned us yet for
talking about them.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, no, I've gotten permission For talking about
them.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So a little self-defense.
If they want to protectthemselves, they need to listen
to our podcast, and then they'llsee how things go Well, one of
the things that we decided wewanted to talk about today is
the timelines that so manystudents have.
Well, every student has atimeline as they work their way
through college, and it doesseem as though that traditional
(03:01):
four years of college studentsin and out in four years is no
longer the norm.
There are a lot of differentways, a lot of different
pathways that students aretaking as they work their way
through college, so we wanted toexplore some of the different
ways students come in, take abreak, go out, stay longer, go
(03:23):
faster, all of those sorts ofthings.
So, lynn, you were going tostart by talking about gap years
.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yep.
So the first thing we want toaddress is a gap year between
high school and college.
I would like to start by sayingthat both of my kids did not do
a gap year and they both saidit at some point during their
college years.
They wish they had.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Mine did not do gap years either, but we never
talked about it.
I think it might have benefited.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I think sometimes students rush off to the next
step without thinking and Ithink, as parents, sometimes we
support them in doing thatbecause we're afraid that they
won't come back.
And just looking at some of thestatistics from the Gap Year
Association, about 90% ofstudents who take a gap year
(04:24):
return to college within thefirst year within that year.
And it's still a rather limitedamount of students who do this
around 2% to 3% of the studentsin the United States.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Wow, that's lower than I would have thought, which
is low.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, low.
One reason why I'm happy we'retalking about this is that,
especially since COVID, I thinkit's really good to have
flexibility in thinking abouttimelines and I think it's
important as parents that welisten to our kids and we ask
them questions and work withthem around timelines.
(05:02):
I think that you know I havemet a number of students who
show up their first year withoutthinking it through and one
thing I see is that itcontributes to sort of a burnout
, because they've gone straightkindergarten, through elementary
(05:23):
school, junior high, highschool, college and they're
already a little bit burnt out.
I also think some of thestudents that I've worked with,
if they're not readyacademically or socially or
emotionally, then it contributesto their feeling not good about
themselves and that's not whatwe want as parents.
(05:47):
We want to support their growthand their development.
There are so many choices outthere for gap year also.
That's something that haschanged, I would say, in the
last 10 years.
More and more and more programs.
There are outdoor programs,there are work-study kind of
(06:08):
programs, there are travelinginternational programs.
There are some colleges anduniversities actually have set
up programs for students whowant to defer and do something
else.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So the student applies and is accepted to the
college or university and thenthat school provides a
connection with a gap program ifthey want to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Right, there's also the possibility of not doing one
of those programs and working.
There are so many benefits tospending time working before
college and I could tell when Imet my first-year students who
had had a gap year and whodidn't, because there's more
(06:59):
confidence, more maturity, moreof those sort of soft skills
like communication and evenstuff like eye contact and
professional you know.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well and I definitely see it in the classroom as well
and I think sometimes it's thatthey come with a sense of
purpose.
They've taken that break andthey've had time to think about
why am I going to college, andwhich we talk about a lot, that
being important that they thinkabout that and they sort of know
(07:33):
what they want out of theexperience, Definitely,
definitely see a difference inthose students.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
And being ready to learn, being ready to choose
courses, being ready for therigor of college matters a lot,
and especially since COVID, Ihave to say things have shifted
a little bit and it might take alittle longer to get back in
gear.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And to network and connect, that ability to connect
with people.
And you know, it occurred to meas you were talking about how
many varieties, how manydifferent kinds of programs that
I think there now are just theway.
there are college fairs whereyou know you go and you check
out all the colleges and decidewhich ones you want to follow up
(08:24):
with.
There are gap year fairs now,where it's you know everybody in
one big place and you can goaround and really see what the
different programs are andcollect information.
And so even if, even if yourstudent isn't actively thinking
about a gap year, it's sort ofan interesting way to check it
(08:46):
out.
Or I'm thinking, if the studentis saying I don't know that I
want to do a gap year, butparents are thinking I think my
student would benefit from a gapyear If you could get them to
go to the gap fair with you,they may see something that
really sparks their interest.
In that.
(09:06):
We did a podcast with JayGoslin, who was the founder of a
great gap program calledDiscover Year, and we'll put we
can put the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
it's in canada, I don't know how those
relationships are going rightnow I don't know if they still
do but um, it's in toronto, I, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Um, so, and what was interesting about that is it
would, if a student decided todo that, they could do it as a
residential program and it's achance to have a little bit of a
sort of internationalexperience at the same time, and
I thought the program soundedwonderful.
It was really geared on thoseskills and all and they deal
(09:57):
with people in the businesscommunity and it's a residence
program, and so there are somany different choices program,
and so there are so manydifferent choices.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
And I don't know what you think of this, vicki, but I
would suggest that studentsapply to college and get
deferred.
Yes, because they're in thatrole.
Why not use that energy to dothe application process, do some
choosing about kinds of schoolsand then make that decision to
put it aside.
Right, because?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
that means you've got that confidence, you've got
that assurance that when you'redone with your gap year you know
what you're going to do and youknow where you're going to be
and you don't have to spend anymental, energy and physical time
over during your gap year inthe application process and the
(10:49):
waiting process and the decisionprocess.
That's all behind you.
And I suppose it would bepossible a student could do a
gap year and by the end of thegap year say you know, that
place that I thought I wanted tobe isn't where I want to be.
And then they do applysomewhere else.
But having that in your backpocket would be really good,
(11:11):
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
It's important, as you look at colleges, to find
out what their policies arearound deferring.
And the other suggestion Iwould make is that it's really
important for students andparents together to sit down and
have a plan of action.
You know why am I doing a gapyear?
(11:32):
What am I hoping to accomplish?
You know what am I doing andhaving conversations around that
, because it will set the stagefor a productive year.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, and to really have a sense of what are you
expecting from a gap year.
What are the, you know, asteachers in the classroom, we
talk a lot about outcomes.
You know what is the outcome wewant for this student at the end
of this course or this unit orwhatever, and so for students to
have some sense of what aretheir objectives or their
(12:04):
outcomes.
Why am I doing this?
What do I want from it?
And that would help narrow downsome of the all of the many,
many possibilities for kinds ofgap years.
You know, depending on what youwant, some programs are going
to be more what you want to lookat.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I do think it's important to support our kids in
the fact that there'sflexibility here and it's
becoming more and more commonand more and more students are
doing this.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, certainly something to think about, and
you know that sort of leads me.
One of the things I wanted totalk about was actually a
post-grad year.
A high school post-grad yearwas actually a post-grad year, a
high school post-grad year, andI think there is sometimes some
confusion about gap year versuspost-grad year.
They're not the same thing,it's a different thing.
(12:53):
And a post-grad year, you know,when you graduate from high
school, that doesn't necessarilyand automatically mean you're
ready for college.
Some students need something alittle more and maybe a gap year
is what they want to do, butmaybe they want to spend another
year of high school, butdifferently.
(13:15):
I think that the key is apost-grad high school.
Post-grad year is a fifth yearof high school, but it is
entirely different.
It's not just staying where youare for another year, it's a
fifth year and it's usually in aprogram that's very specialized
for students who already havetheir high school diploma.
(13:38):
They go somewhere else.
Often, a lot of private schoolshave specific post-grad programs
.
There would still be other highschool kids there, but then
there would be this cohort ofstudents who are in this
post-grad program with acurriculum that's designed
(14:00):
especially for them.
And the interesting thing is,this is a student, then, who
already has a high schooldiploma, so you then have
completed all of yourrequirements.
Interesting thing is, this is astudent, then, who already has
a high school diploma.
So so you you then havecompleted all of your
requirements.
So it leaves you open to beable to take different kinds of
classes, different things thatyou want to do, because you're
not checking off those boxes ofthe things that you had to
(14:22):
graduate so less pressure, yes,and more creativity in you know
again, knowing your objectives.
What are you hoping for thisyear?
And there are about 150 schools, I think, that have gap year
programs.
They started in New Englandsome of the private schools in
(14:42):
New England, so there may bemore in that area of the country
.
Some are day programs but a lotare boarding programs.
So a student would give astudent also an opportunity to
live away from home, live in aresidence kind of environment
and have this transitional year.
And there are a lot of differentreasons that students can do it
(15:06):
.
Sometimes there are studentswho just need a little more
maturity, they need a littlemore time.
And sometimes there arestudents who are very
academically strong but justwant this time because they
socially or whatever, need that.
Athletes sometimes do apost-grad year because they're
(15:29):
still eligible to play and theyuse that year to either mature
as a player so that they may bemore desirable and able to play
in college, or sometimes toimprove their grades so that the
grades balance with theirathletic abilities and they're
more apt to get you know.
(15:49):
And sometimes some studentsbecause somewhere in high school
they really hit a bump in theroad.
They had an illness or a familycrisis or a death in the family
that really left them with somegaps.
And so they want to.
You know, fill that in or justplain give themselves some
distance from a poor high schoolexperience.
(16:10):
I want a year.
I want a year before I go and Iwant to enter college with a
positive, strong year of highschool behind me and it's going
to help me with that.
It's going to build my resume,it's going to up my grades, it's
going to I'll be able to dobetter on test scores.
Students might actually do thesame thing you were talking
(16:35):
about with the gap year theymight apply to college and then
defer and then do this post-gradyear.
But some students may alsodecide, unlike the gap year,
that they want to wait becausethey're going to be a stronger
candidate after this year ofpost-grad.
So it's really something.
It's not for all students, butthey get an opportunity to do
(16:56):
something significantlydifferent, to have smaller
classes, to build relationshipswith faculty which will help
them when they want to do thaton the high school level to
experience living away from home, to explore a different part of
the country perhaps, and thatmay affect where they decide
they want to go to college.
You know, maybe I'm from theMidwest and I do a post-grad
(17:19):
year in New England and I sayyou know, I'd like to stay in
New England now to go to collegeand they mature a little bit.
So students want to lookcarefully at programs in the
same way as gap programs.
Is it the right fit?
What do I want out of it?
They also, I think, need to beprepared to explain to friends,
(17:45):
to family, to other people whatit is they're doing and why
they're doing it.
I didn't get held back in highschool.
It's not that I failed out ofhigh school or anything.
I have a real purpose of doingthis very special kind of
program.
But they may get questions,they may have some feelings when
(18:09):
their friends go off to collegeand they should be prepared a
little bit for some feelings inthat way.
But for a lot of students itcan be a really good thing.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And the fact that more and more students are doing
alternative things helps.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It's just another path, Yep yep.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Another thing I wanted to talk about was taking
some gap time in the middle ofcollege.
So one of my sons did that.
One of my sons did that.
He was heading towards hissenior last semester and decided
(18:56):
to take one semester off justto work, stay in town and work,
and I think he needed a breakbefore he jumped into at his
school.
They had a big final projectthat they needed to present and
it gave him more time and he gotto make some money and he got
(19:19):
to stay around the community.
It was really helpful to taketime right smack in the middle.
So you know, again, it's notfor everybody.
Some students may lose theirrhythm if they do that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yet some students, like my son, Josh, who just who
spoke up and said this is what Ineed.
I need a breather, yeah, yeah,and you know, as you're talking
about that, I think one thingthat might be really important
that students and parents bothunderstand is the idea of what a
leave of absence is, becauseyou don't you don't withdraw
(19:59):
from college, you don't drop outof college.
If what you want is a breather,right, and you, and you know,
know you're going to return, sostudents can take.
Policies are different atdifferent colleges, but all
colleges have some kind ofpolicy for a leave of absence,
which is taking a break.
It's a temporary leaving of thecollege with the intent to
(20:21):
return, and that's thedifference between a leave of
absence and withdrawing.
If you withdraw, you're done.
You might decide later toreturn, but a leave of absence
is really that you intend toreturn to the same institution,
and some students take itbecause they need the break that
you're talking about, but itcould be because of an illness
(20:44):
or a family crisis, a lot ofthose sorts of things, a death
in the family, something that'spushing them off track, and they
say I need to take a leave, Ineed to deal with this thing
whatever it is, and then I planto come back.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
You know, it could be as simple as some mental health
issues where it's just it willbe better to take a breather.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and, I think, much like a gap year.
It's important that studentshave a plan for how they're
going to use that time and andhow they're going to use that
time.
May simply be I'm going to workon my recovery um doesn't mean
I have to go to work or I haveto be in a program or something,
I just you know but but startout with a plan of how they're
(21:30):
going to use the time and howthey're going to return.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
You know you and I talk a lot about having
conversations with our kids andhow different it is at this
stage of their lives for parentsand kids to talk.
It is different because you aremore of their coach and you
really are listening to them andwhy they need to do what they
need to do and you can be really.
(21:56):
It can be a wonderful time toconnect with your kids around
what they're doing and it's amore equal relationship.
It's a more partnership typerelationship than when they were
younger and the more you dothat the more that partnership
feels comfortable, I think, toboth.
(22:17):
And that goes on into adulthood.
Now that our kids are older, Imean it's just so much fun you
know talking, yeah, it's havinga.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I mean, your child is never your friend in that same
way, but it is more similar inthat way.
You know one thing I think,though, whether it is a leave of
absence or withdraw, somestudents may withdraw because
they know that they want toreturn to college eventually,
but not to the same place, andthat may be it too.
(22:51):
But I think, whether it's aleave of absence or withdrawal,
that it's important thatstudents and parents talk to the
financial aid office beforethey do it, because, I mean, if
they are taking a leave ofabsence, they are still
considered a student of thecollege, they're still
affiliated, but you want to findout what the impact is going to
(23:14):
be on financial aid, anddefinitely, if a student
withdraws from college, theyhave six months before they need
to begin to repay their loans,and they need to be prepared and
be aware of that.
So, before doing anything whereyou step out, you really want
to touch bases with thefinancial aid office.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So here's another population of students, totally
different group, totallydifferent group, and that is the
(24:07):
student who takes a long gap.
And I worked at a communitycollege for a while as a
learning specialist and I metmany students left school, many
women left school, went and hadfamilies and then came back and
they were so pleasant to workwith.
I mean, these students were somuch fun because they came back
with such a clear purpose.
They were so excited aboutgetting their bachelor of arts
degree, you know.
So the students who leave for achunk of time, it does.
(24:31):
There are places to come backto where they'll get lots of
support in finishing this degree.
So you know that's sort of thelong gap and return, you know.
Student.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And you know there are a lot of names for those
students.
They sometimes, you know,sometimes they're called
dropouts, you know, and you knowthere are a lot of names for
those students.
They sometimes, you know,sometimes they're called
dropouts, you know, but, um,more recently they're stopouts,
yeah, or sometimes they'recalled comebackers or potential
completers, students who've beenout for two or more years yeah,
um, it's a pop and butunfortunately, sometimes they're
(25:06):
the forgotten students.
But it's a population that isgrowing of students who started
college, left and then, yearslater I had a sabbatical two or
three years ago, and thisactually was the topic of my
(25:29):
sabbatical, and so I sort oftried to rack my brain a little
bit and say what did I do?
But because of that, I haveactually a couple of statistics
that are sort of interesting onthis, and one is thinking about
the reasons that they leave, andoften it is to have a family or
(25:55):
finances.
So 23% of those students wholeave may leave because of
financial reasons Makes sense,but 27% 27% because of personal
commitments, and that would bethings like having a family, or
just I have to take care of myaging parents or I have a sick
(26:15):
child, and then physical andemotional health is 13%, and
that number is probably growingmore and more.
But then what was interestingis the reasons that they choose
to come back, and I think theobvious reasons that they choose
(26:37):
to come back are often that wethink in terms of a promotion or
job mobility.
You know, I'm in this job andand now I found out that if I
get a college degree I have moreoptions.
So about 18% come back becauseit would do something, would
help them with their career.
(26:59):
But what was really interestingto me is about 34% of those
students tend to come backbecause they just want to finish
what they started.
I got started on this thing andI want to close the door on it,
I want to finish and another18% because they want to
(27:22):
accomplish a personal goal.
It was a personal goal of mineand now I'm ready to finish that
.
So the reasons for leaving andthe reasons for coming back can
vary a lot.
And you know, we talk a lot inhigher education about
(27:42):
persistence and those are thestudents I mean in our higher ed
lingo.
Those are the students whostart as a freshman and finish
in four years.
That's our persistence rate,the number of students that
graduated the end of four years.
But I think when you're lookingat this population, we think
more about their perseverance.
(28:02):
They didn't persist, theydidn't stay, they took a break,
they did whatever they had to do, but they persevered and they
came back.
Um, it's really an amazinggroup of people.
It's an amazing group ofstudents.
Um, yeah, and and I I have Ihave actually two quotes that
(28:24):
because I did the- you know, Ispent time on this um and one
was and my parents should hearthis um that the the more
positive enabling relationshipsa student has in their lives,
the more likely they are toreturn to school.
So if your student, you know,takes that break and it's become
(28:44):
starting to becoming to becomemore than a short break, it's
developing, long-term, stayingpositive, enabling and helping
them move forward in their life,they are really much more
likely to return.
And the other one really has todo, you know, we're talking
(29:04):
about students who choose totake this long break.
Some students which was reallya little more the focus of what
I was looking at are studentswho leave college not by their
choice.
They're dismissed, they'reacademically dismissed because
they weren't ready or becauseyou know, whatever reason.
(29:25):
And and it it's sometimes alittle harder for them to come
back.
Oh sure, because they have tobuild the confidence and that's
where those positiverelationships for parents.
But the quote that I have camefrom one of our favorite books,
which is the gift of failure, byjessica leahy love it
absolutely and we can link to itin the show notes, but the
(29:47):
quote quote was in her book, butit actually isn't her quote.
She's quoting a high schoolteacher named Jonathan Shea and
he put it this way, quotestudents recover, People do it
all the time and the failurehelps them learn about
themselves.
First, they learn that peoplewant them to be okay.
Second, they learn that theycan overcome a problem, but that
(30:11):
work and attention are moreimportant than genius or
perfection.
Students need to fail becausethis is when they learn to
succeed.
And I, you know, I think for me, for this population of
students, whether the failure isthat they failed out and were
dismissed or just that theyfailed to persist to continue
(30:33):
straight through the value thatthey get from it is more than we
sometimes think about.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And that's one of our repeating themes as well that
students learn from theirmistakes as well.
That students learn from theirmistakes.
They learn when things don't goaccording to plan.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
They often learn tremendous amounts and those
students who are short-term orlong-term in the middle gap need
to take the initiative toreturn.
Colleges aren't chasing whenyou're in high school.
The colleges are chasing youdown.
They want admissions andthey're after you.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Later on not so much.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
They're not, but if you know the student just
reaches out to the admissionsoffice or whatever, and often a
readmission to the sameinstitution is a very simple
thing.
It's not the whole big ordealthat admissions was eventually
yeah.
So I want to talk about anothergroup, and that's a group that
(31:35):
doesn't leave but might bespending more than four years to
finish their degree Yep.
Which is becoming much more thenorm.
Graduation rates calculate asix-year graduation rate because
(31:58):
the number of students who arespending more than four years to
complete their degree isgrowing, and these are students.
Some of these students entercollege and I've advised some of
these students planning on fiveyears.
I know I'm not going to be ableto take these heavy loads.
I want a slightly lighter loadeach semester because I'm going
(32:21):
to be better able and it's okaywith me if it takes me five
years to amass the courses andthe credits that I need.
And then there are otherstudents who planned on four
years but life happened and itcould be they fooled around too
much.
It could be that somethinghappened in their life an
illness, a family death, afamily crisis and they take
(32:45):
longer.
And sometimes we call thesestudents super seniors because
they've already done that routeof being a freshman and a
sophomore and a junior and asenior.
And here they are continuingand they're what we call super
seniors.
But they need to realize thatthey are more the norm now that
(33:06):
it takes a little longer.
So it could be because notnecessarily, but because they
changed a major too late,perhaps to be able then to
finish in the four years.
Maybe they transferred.
That doesn't necessarily meanit's going to take them longer,
but it just depends on what'sgoing on, those lifestyle
choices, um, that they have madethat may have slowed them down.
(33:28):
Sometimes they have to repeatfailed classes or, um they're
they missed scheduling certainrequirements when they needed
them, class rotations the thingsthat they needed weren't
offered when they needed themand it was a little bit out of
their control.
They've withdrawn from too manyclasses.
You know a student will behaving trouble in a class.
(33:49):
They say, oh, I'm going towithdraw and that's fine.
Sometimes I always say the Wstands for wisdom.
But if they do that too manytimes now, they're behind in
credits.
So the bottom line is oftenstudents need to raise their GPA
.
Perhaps it's too low tograduate, or they need credits,
or they need requirements, andso they become a super, super
(34:13):
senior.
And I think there are a coupleof things for them to think
about.
First is both they and parentsneed to come to terms with it.
It's going to take longerSometimes.
For parents that means thinkingabout the finances.
This is going to be more timeFor the student to recognize.
They may feel a little out ofplace because their friends may
(34:36):
be graduating and they're stillhanging around.
Parents and students need totalk about it.
That's a theme we did, that'sone of our themes when in doubt,
talk to your student and Ithink for parents to remind
students that they're not alonein this and to really talk
together about what theirexpectations are for this extra
(34:59):
year um, and to for students towork with their advisor to make
sure that they are now checkingall the boxes and doing um, and
for parents to talk to thefinancial aid office to see
whether aid continues or or whatum, because it's going to be a
different kind of a year and themore that the student can make
it feel like a different year, Ithink, the more comfortable
(35:22):
some students are in being superseniors.
So, for instance, if they justneed credits not certain courses
, but just credits thinkingabout maybe heavier internship
credits, getting out, doingthings that are going to get
them experience and get them offcampus a little more, doing
(35:43):
other things, doing morecommunity service, getting out
in the community, working, andthen also thinking, okay, I'm
spending an extra year, I know afew things.
Maybe they can share some ofwhat they have learned with
other students by being a TA,being a mentor, being a peer
advisor or a tutor?
If they just need credits,could they study abroad?
(36:08):
Could they study away, which iswhere you don't go abroad but
you go somewhere other thanwhere you've spent four years?
I just need to get some credits.
Does my college have apartnership with another school
in another part of the country?
And could I have that sense ofdoing something different?
You mentioned maybe doinginformational interviews,
(36:35):
looking at career options,working on building their resume
, applications for jobs, joininga professional organization
related to your career andgetting involved in that, or
just plain doing some things youdidn't have time to do any
other time.
Join a club, do somethingcreative or whatever.
(36:58):
So whatever students can do tomake that fifth year feel a
little different that oftenhelps.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Another group of students in that fifth year is
the growing group of studentswho are getting their master's
degree along with their bachelorof arts degree.
More and more colleges areoffering a fifth-year program
that adds in the master's degree, so that's also another group
of students, right.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And so they often start in their junior and senior
year doing some classes thatcount toward the master's,
toward the master's degree.
And then they just stay insteadof going off somewhere else.
Yeah, that's something, and itfeels like investigating a
five-year master's.
When you're just coming in as afreshman, it feels like it's a
(37:50):
really long way away.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
But looking at that, so the last group of students,
yeah are the fast track students.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
So these are the students who don't even want to
spend four years.
They aim to try to finish inthree or sometimes three and a
half years.
And if that's what you want todo and a lot of students do and
more and more are, because itsaves you a year of tuition,
right, uh, and and and it alsosome students do it just because
(38:22):
they're so anxious to get out.
I want to get out.
I have an advisee right nowwho's working on finishing.
Um, he will.
He will be here next year.
He has one more year.
It would be his junior year,but it will be here next year.
He has one more year.
It would be his junior year, butit will be his last year.
And I said why?
I'm not telling you shouldn'tdo it, but what's your rationale
(38:44):
, why do you want to do it?
And he said I just want to getout there, I want to be doing
this, I don't want to sit in theclassroom learning about this
anymore, I want to do it.
They still have to do the samenumber of credits, take the same
number of courses andeverything.
(39:04):
So it really takes a specialstudent who really is focused.
And I had a student, an advisee,a couple of years ago she
finished a couple of years agowho finished in three years and
she did everything.
I mean she still was in clubs,she still worked at the radio
station, she worked on campus,she did all kinds of things.
But she had been very focusedvery early on, even in high
(39:26):
school, and by the time she cameto college she had done a
couple of AP classes, advancedplacement classes and taken the
test.
So she had college credit forher psychology and, I think, her
math and a writing class orsomething like that.
She had done some dualenrollment classes where, as
(39:50):
part of your high schoolcurriculum, you take a college
class.
Some high schools offer this andsome don't, but she had done a
couple of dual enrollmentclasses.
She had done a couple of summerclasses so that she had gotten
some college credit, and she haddone a couple of CLEP exams,
(40:11):
which it's C-L-E-P that's ourjargon which are college-level
examination program classeswhere a student picks a subject
maybe that they already knowsomething about, they study it,
they get some textbooks, theystudy it.
I think it costs about $60 or$70 to register and take an exam
(40:32):
and if you pass the exam youhave credit for the course.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
And that's a lot cheaper than three credits,
which is expensive.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
So by the time she was a freshman, she was really a
sophomore and then she didthings like you could take.
An average load is between 12and 18 credits a semester.
Three credit classes, so youtake between four and six.
Most students take about 15credits a semester.
Three credit classes, so youtake between four and six.
Most students take about 15credits a semester.
Five classes she did six everysemester and she also, I have to
(41:07):
say, graduated with a 4.0.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Unbelievable.
She was an amazing kid.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
This is unusual.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So a lot of people aren't going to do all of these
things, but it's just the arrayof things that she can do.
I was her advisor.
She worked very closely with meto make sure she was getting
the right things and when werethings going to be off.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So this is a real student.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yes, this is a real student.
This is amazing.
And she went on to become ateacher.
She went on and did it.
She was a communicationundergraduate and then she said
you know, I think what I reallywant to do is teach.
And so she went on to get amaster's in education and become
a teacher.
So she did all of those things.
(41:50):
Some students might need to beprepared for a little less free
time as they do all of this.
She was just so efficient thatshe was able to do it all.
Um and oh.
The other one was winterintercession and classes, and
she, she did those.
So that was all the stuff thatthis particular student did.
But, uh, mix and match and andyou really can, with some focus
(42:13):
and planning and carefullyworking finish in three students
in three years.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
So the bottom line is that there are many ways to do
college and it depends on thestudent, it depends on the
family, it depends on so manythings, but there are choices
and it's not the same way forevery student, right?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I mean, it just isn't right and coming in with a plan
and then being flexible.
Yeah, so there are students whocome in with the fast track I'm
going to do it in three yearsand then they find out no, it's
going to take me four.
Um, because?
Because I recognize that sixclasses a semester is too much
(43:01):
or whatever.
Or students who think they'regoing to do it in four years and
they end up in five years, orstudents who think they're going
to come in and then go out andthey'll be done and they take a
gap.
It's really exciting to thinkabout how many different ways
there are to do college now.
So students and parents need totalk, need to think, need to
(43:23):
lay out all the options andinvestigate the options,
investigate the gap years, thepost-grad, the things you can do
to speed yourself along anddecide what feels right
absolutely.
Absolutely so well, that's yourhomework parents, to have some
conversations with your studentabout expectations.
(43:45):
You know, if a parent thinksit's going to happen in three
years and the student isthinking I'm going to take four
years at least, you need to talkand decide.
You know what's going to work.
So we hope this gave you somethings to think about and to
talk to your student about, andwe are really appreciative that,
if you're still here, you stuckthrough to the end with us and
(44:10):
we hope you have wonderfulconversations with your student
about how it goes.
And please check out theCollege Parent Central website.
We will have show notes therewith a couple of links of things
that we've talked about, and ifyou know anyone who you think
would find this podcast helpfulor the website helpful, please
(44:32):
pass it along, because word ofmouth is often the best.
So thanks so much for beinghere with us and we will see you
next time.
See you later.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts, vicki Nelsonand Lynn Abrahams, as they share
support and a celebration ofthe amazing child in college.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
We're glad you are back with us, or with us for the first time.
This is the podcast where wetalk about all kinds of things
that have to do with parentingthe college student or a student
about to go to college, gettingready to go to college, perhaps
still in high school, andsometimes about students who are
(01:10):
finished with college andmoving on to the next stage.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication,
and so I work with studentsevery day, but I am also the mom
of three daughters, who haveall gone to college and finished
and moved on.
(01:31):
So I come to this topic both asa professional in higher
education and as a mom, and I amhere, as I so often am, with my
friend and my co-host, and Iwill let her introduce herself.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Hi everyone.
My name is Lynn Abrahams, veryhappy to be here today.
I also have that two-prongedsort of approach here.
I come to this both as aprofessional and as a parent.
I have worked with collegestudents who have learning
(02:08):
differences for my entire careerand I'm also the mom of two
sons who have been in, outthrough around college.
So it's an important topic andsometimes our stories about our
own kids come through first.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right, and they haven't disowned us yet for
talking about them.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, no, I've gotten permission For talking about
them.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So a little self-defense.
If they want to protectthemselves, they need to listen
to our podcast, and then they'llsee how things go Well, one of
the things that we decided wewanted to talk about today is
the timelines that so manystudents have.
Well, every student has atimeline as they work their way
through college, and it doesseem as though that traditional
(03:01):
four years of college studentsin and out in four years is no
longer the norm.
There are a lot of differentways, a lot of different
pathways that students aretaking as they work their way
through college, so we wanted toexplore some of the different
ways students come in, take abreak, go out, stay longer, go
(03:23):
faster, all of those sorts ofthings.
So, lynn, you were going tostart by talking about gap years
.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Yep.
So the first thing we want toaddress is a gap year between
high school and college.
I would like to start by sayingthat both of my kids did not do
a gap year and they both saidit at some point during their
college years.
They wish they had.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Mine did not do gap years either, but we never
talked about it.
I think it might have benefited.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I think sometimes students rush off to the next
step without thinking and Ithink, as parents, sometimes we
support them in doing thatbecause we're afraid that they
won't come back.
And just looking at some of thestatistics from the Gap Year
Association, about 90% ofstudents who take a gap year
(04:24):
return to college within thefirst year within that year.
And it's still a rather limitedamount of students who do this
around 2% to 3% of the studentsin the United States.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Wow, that's lower than I would have thought, which
is low.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yeah, low.
One reason why I'm happy we'retalking about this is that,
especially since COVID, I thinkit's really good to have
flexibility in thinking abouttimelines and I think it's
important as parents that welisten to our kids and we ask
them questions and work withthem around timelines.
(05:02):
I think that you know I havemet a number of students who
show up their first year withoutthinking it through and one
thing I see is that itcontributes to sort of a burnout
, because they've gone straightkindergarten, through elementary
(05:23):
school, junior high, highschool, college and they're
already a little bit burnt out.
I also think some of thestudents that I've worked with,
if they're not readyacademically or socially or
emotionally, then it contributesto their feeling not good about
themselves and that's not whatwe want as parents.
(05:47):
We want to support their growthand their development.
There are so many choices outthere for gap year also.
That's something that haschanged, I would say, in the
last 10 years.
More and more and more programs.
There are outdoor programs,there are work-study kind of
(06:08):
programs, there are travelinginternational programs.
There are some colleges anduniversities actually have set
up programs for students whowant to defer and do something
else.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So the student applies and is accepted to the
college or university and thenthat school provides a
connection with a gap program ifthey want to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Right, there's also the possibility of not doing one
of those programs and working.
There are so many benefits tospending time working before
college and I could tell when Imet my first-year students who
had had a gap year and whodidn't, because there's more
(06:59):
confidence, more maturity, moreof those sort of soft skills
like communication and evenstuff like eye contact and
professional you know.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well and I definitely see it in the classroom as well
and I think sometimes it's thatthey come with a sense of
purpose.
They've taken that break andthey've had time to think about
why am I going to college, andwhich we talk about a lot, that
being important that they thinkabout that and they sort of know
(07:33):
what they want out of theexperience, Definitely,
definitely see a difference inthose students.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
And being ready to learn, being ready to choose
courses, being ready for therigor of college matters a lot,
and especially since COVID, Ihave to say things have shifted
a little bit and it might take alittle longer to get back in
gear.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And to network and connect, that ability to connect
with people.
And you know, it occurred to meas you were talking about how
many varieties, how manydifferent kinds of programs that
I think there now are just theway.
there are college fairs whereyou know you go and you check
out all the colleges and decidewhich ones you want to follow up
(08:24):
with.
There are gap year fairs now,where it's you know everybody in
one big place and you can goaround and really see what the
different programs are andcollect information.
And so even if, even if yourstudent isn't actively thinking
about a gap year, it's sort ofan interesting way to check it
(08:46):
out.
Or I'm thinking, if the studentis saying I don't know that I
want to do a gap year, butparents are thinking I think my
student would benefit from a gapyear If you could get them to
go to the gap fair with you,they may see something that
really sparks their interest.
In that.
(09:06):
We did a podcast with JayGoslin, who was the founder of a
great gap program calledDiscover Year, and we'll put we
can put the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
it's in canada, I don't know how those
relationships are going rightnow I don't know if they still
do but um, it's in toronto, I, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Um, so, and what was interesting about that is it
would, if a student decided todo that, they could do it as a
residential program and it's achance to have a little bit of a
sort of internationalexperience at the same time, and
I thought the program soundedwonderful.
It was really geared on thoseskills and all and they deal
(09:57):
with people in the businesscommunity and it's a residence
program, and so there are somany different choices program,
and so there are so manydifferent choices.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
And I don't know what you think of this, vicki, but I
would suggest that studentsapply to college and get
deferred.
Yes, because they're in thatrole.
Why not use that energy to dothe application process, do some
choosing about kinds of schoolsand then make that decision to
put it aside.
Right, because?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
that means you've got that confidence, you've got
that assurance that when you'redone with your gap year you know
what you're going to do and youknow where you're going to be
and you don't have to spend anymental, energy and physical time
over during your gap year inthe application process and the
(10:49):
waiting process and the decisionprocess.
That's all behind you.
And I suppose it would bepossible a student could do a
gap year and by the end of thegap year say you know, that
place that I thought I wanted tobe isn't where I want to be.
And then they do applysomewhere else.
But having that in your backpocket would be really good,
(11:11):
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
It's important, as you look at colleges, to find
out what their policies arearound deferring.
And the other suggestion Iwould make is that it's really
important for students andparents together to sit down and
have a plan of action.
You know why am I doing a gapyear?
(11:32):
What am I hoping to accomplish?
You know what am I doing andhaving conversations around that
, because it will set the stagefor a productive year.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, and to really have a sense of what are you
expecting from a gap year.
What are the, you know, asteachers in the classroom, we
talk a lot about outcomes.
You know what is the outcome wewant for this student at the end
of this course or this unit orwhatever, and so for students to
have some sense of what aretheir objectives or their
(12:04):
outcomes.
Why am I doing this?
What do I want from it?
And that would help narrow downsome of the all of the many,
many possibilities for kinds ofgap years.
You know, depending on what youwant, some programs are going
to be more what you want to lookat.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I do think it's important to support our kids in
the fact that there'sflexibility here and it's
becoming more and more commonand more and more students are
doing this.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, certainly something to think about, and
you know that sort of leads me.
One of the things I wanted totalk about was actually a
post-grad year.
A high school post-grad yearwas actually a post-grad year, a
high school post-grad year, andI think there is sometimes some
confusion about gap year versuspost-grad year.
They're not the same thing,it's a different thing.
(12:53):
And a post-grad year, you know,when you graduate from high
school, that doesn't necessarilyand automatically mean you're
ready for college.
Some students need something alittle more and maybe a gap year
is what they want to do, butmaybe they want to spend another
year of high school, butdifferently.
(13:15):
I think that the key is apost-grad high school.
Post-grad year is a fifth yearof high school, but it is
entirely different.
It's not just staying where youare for another year, it's a
fifth year and it's usually in aprogram that's very specialized
for students who already havetheir high school diploma.
(13:38):
They go somewhere else.
Often, a lot of private schoolshave specific post-grad programs
.
There would still be other highschool kids there, but then
there would be this cohort ofstudents who are in this
post-grad program with acurriculum that's designed
(14:00):
especially for them.
And the interesting thing is,this is a student, then, who
already has a high schooldiploma, so you then have
completed all of yourrequirements.
Interesting thing is, this is astudent, then, who already has
a high school diploma.
So so you you then havecompleted all of your
requirements.
So it leaves you open to beable to take different kinds of
classes, different things thatyou want to do, because you're
not checking off those boxes ofthe things that you had to
(14:22):
graduate so less pressure, yes,and more creativity in you know
again, knowing your objectives.
What are you hoping for thisyear?
And there are about 150 schools, I think, that have gap year
programs.
They started in New Englandsome of the private schools in
(14:42):
New England, so there may bemore in that area of the country
.
Some are day programs but a lotare boarding programs.
So a student would give astudent also an opportunity to
live away from home, live in aresidence kind of environment
and have this transitional year.
And there are a lot of differentreasons that students can do it
(15:06):
.
Sometimes there are studentswho just need a little more
maturity, they need a littlemore time.
And sometimes there arestudents who are very
academically strong but justwant this time because they
socially or whatever, need that.
Athletes sometimes do apost-grad year because they're
(15:29):
still eligible to play and theyuse that year to either mature
as a player so that they may bemore desirable and able to play
in college, or sometimes toimprove their grades so that the
grades balance with theirathletic abilities and they're
more apt to get you know.
(15:49):
And sometimes some studentsbecause somewhere in high school
they really hit a bump in theroad.
They had an illness or a familycrisis or a death in the family
that really left them with somegaps.
And so they want to.
You know, fill that in or justplain give themselves some
distance from a poor high schoolexperience.
(16:10):
I want a year.
I want a year before I go and Iwant to enter college with a
positive, strong year of highschool behind me and it's going
to help me with that.
It's going to build my resume,it's going to up my grades, it's
going to I'll be able to dobetter on test scores.
Students might actually do thesame thing you were talking
(16:35):
about with the gap year theymight apply to college and then
defer and then do this post-gradyear.
But some students may alsodecide, unlike the gap year,
that they want to wait becausethey're going to be a stronger
candidate after this year ofpost-grad.
So it's really something.
It's not for all students, butthey get an opportunity to do
(16:56):
something significantlydifferent, to have smaller
classes, to build relationshipswith faculty which will help
them when they want to do thaton the high school level to
experience living away from home, to explore a different part of
the country perhaps, and thatmay affect where they decide
they want to go to college.
You know, maybe I'm from theMidwest and I do a post-grad
(17:19):
year in New England and I sayyou know, I'd like to stay in
New England now to go to collegeand they mature a little bit.
So students want to lookcarefully at programs in the
same way as gap programs.
Is it the right fit?
What do I want out of it?
They also, I think, need to beprepared to explain to friends,
(17:45):
to family, to other people whatit is they're doing and why
they're doing it.
I didn't get held back in highschool.
It's not that I failed out ofhigh school or anything.
I have a real purpose of doingthis very special kind of
program.
But they may get questions,they may have some feelings when
(18:09):
their friends go off to collegeand they should be prepared a
little bit for some feelings inthat way.
But for a lot of students itcan be a really good thing.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And the fact that more and more students are doing
alternative things helps.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It's just another path, Yep yep.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Another thing I wanted to talk about was taking
some gap time in the middle ofcollege.
So one of my sons did that.
One of my sons did that.
He was heading towards hissenior last semester and decided
(18:56):
to take one semester off justto work, stay in town and work,
and I think he needed a breakbefore he jumped into at his
school.
They had a big final projectthat they needed to present and
it gave him more time and he gotto make some money and he got
(19:19):
to stay around the community.
It was really helpful to taketime right smack in the middle.
So you know, again, it's notfor everybody.
Some students may lose theirrhythm if they do that.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yet some students, like my son, Josh, who just who
spoke up and said this is what Ineed.
I need a breather, yeah, yeah,and you know, as you're talking
about that, I think one thingthat might be really important
that students and parents bothunderstand is the idea of what a
leave of absence is, becauseyou don't you don't withdraw
(19:59):
from college, you don't drop outof college.
If what you want is a breather,right, and you, and you know,
know you're going to return, sostudents can take.
Policies are different atdifferent colleges, but all
colleges have some kind ofpolicy for a leave of absence,
which is taking a break.
It's a temporary leaving of thecollege with the intent to
(20:21):
return, and that's thedifference between a leave of
absence and withdrawing.
If you withdraw, you're done.
You might decide later toreturn, but a leave of absence
is really that you intend toreturn to the same institution,
and some students take itbecause they need the break that
you're talking about, but itcould be because of an illness
(20:44):
or a family crisis, a lot ofthose sorts of things, a death
in the family, something that'spushing them off track, and they
say I need to take a leave, Ineed to deal with this thing
whatever it is, and then I planto come back.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
You know, it could be as simple as some mental health
issues where it's just it willbe better to take a breather.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, and, I think, much like a gap year.
It's important that studentshave a plan for how they're
going to use that time and andhow they're going to use that
time.
May simply be I'm going to workon my recovery um doesn't mean
I have to go to work or I haveto be in a program or something,
I just you know but but startout with a plan of how they're
(21:30):
going to use the time and howthey're going to return.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
You know you and I talk a lot about having
conversations with our kids andhow different it is at this
stage of their lives for parentsand kids to talk.
It is different because you aremore of their coach and you
really are listening to them andwhy they need to do what they
need to do and you can be really.
(21:56):
It can be a wonderful time toconnect with your kids around
what they're doing and it's amore equal relationship.
It's a more partnership typerelationship than when they were
younger and the more you dothat the more that partnership
feels comfortable, I think, toboth.
(22:17):
And that goes on into adulthood.
Now that our kids are older, Imean it's just so much fun you
know talking, yeah, it's havinga.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I mean, your child is never your friend in that same
way, but it is more similar inthat way.
You know one thing I think,though, whether it is a leave of
absence or withdraw, somestudents may withdraw because
they know that they want toreturn to college eventually,
but not to the same place, andthat may be it too.
(22:51):
But I think, whether it's aleave of absence or withdrawal,
that it's important thatstudents and parents talk to the
financial aid office beforethey do it, because, I mean, if
they are taking a leave ofabsence, they are still
considered a student of thecollege, they're still
affiliated, but you want to findout what the impact is going to
(23:14):
be on financial aid, anddefinitely, if a student
withdraws from college, theyhave six months before they need
to begin to repay their loans,and they need to be prepared and
be aware of that.
So, before doing anything whereyou step out, you really want
to touch bases with thefinancial aid office.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So here's another population of students, totally
different group, totallydifferent group, and that is the
(24:07):
student who takes a long gap.
And I worked at a communitycollege for a while as a
learning specialist and I metmany students left school, many
women left school, went and hadfamilies and then came back and
they were so pleasant to workwith.
I mean, these students were somuch fun because they came back
with such a clear purpose.
They were so excited aboutgetting their bachelor of arts
degree, you know.
So the students who leave for achunk of time, it does.
(24:31):
There are places to come backto where they'll get lots of
support in finishing this degree.
So you know that's sort of thelong gap and return, you know.
Student.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And you know there are a lot of names for those
students.
They sometimes, you know,sometimes they're called
dropouts, you know, and you knowthere are a lot of names for
those students.
They sometimes, you know,sometimes they're called
dropouts, you know, but, um,more recently they're stopouts,
yeah, or sometimes they'recalled comebackers or potential
completers, students who've beenout for two or more years yeah,
um, it's a pop and butunfortunately, sometimes they're
(25:06):
the forgotten students.
But it's a population that isgrowing of students who started
college, left and then, yearslater I had a sabbatical two or
three years ago, and thisactually was the topic of my
(25:29):
sabbatical, and so I sort oftried to rack my brain a little
bit and say what did I do?
But because of that, I haveactually a couple of statistics
that are sort of interesting onthis, and one is thinking about
the reasons that they leave, andoften it is to have a family or
(25:55):
finances.
So 23% of those students wholeave may leave because of
financial reasons Makes sense,but 27% 27% because of personal
commitments, and that would bethings like having a family, or
just I have to take care of myaging parents or I have a sick
(26:15):
child, and then physical andemotional health is 13%, and
that number is probably growingmore and more.
But then what was interestingis the reasons that they choose
to come back, and I think theobvious reasons that they choose
(26:37):
to come back are often that wethink in terms of a promotion or
job mobility.
You know, I'm in this job andand now I found out that if I
get a college degree I have moreoptions.
So about 18% come back becauseit would do something, would
help them with their career.
(26:59):
But what was really interestingto me is about 34% of those
students tend to come backbecause they just want to finish
what they started.
I got started on this thing andI want to close the door on it,
I want to finish and another18% because they want to
(27:22):
accomplish a personal goal.
It was a personal goal of mineand now I'm ready to finish that
.
So the reasons for leaving andthe reasons for coming back can
vary a lot.
And you know, we talk a lot inhigher education about
(27:42):
persistence and those are thestudents I mean in our higher ed
lingo.
Those are the students whostart as a freshman and finish
in four years.
That's our persistence rate,the number of students that
graduated the end of four years.
But I think when you're lookingat this population, we think
more about their perseverance.
(28:02):
They didn't persist, theydidn't stay, they took a break,
they did whatever they had to do, but they persevered and they
came back.
Um, it's really an amazinggroup of people.
It's an amazing group ofstudents.
Um, yeah, and and I I have Ihave actually two quotes that
(28:24):
because I did the- you know, Ispent time on this um and one
was and my parents should hearthis um that the the more
positive enabling relationshipsa student has in their lives,
the more likely they are toreturn to school.
So if your student, you know,takes that break and it's become
(28:44):
starting to becoming to becomemore than a short break, it's
developing, long-term, stayingpositive, enabling and helping
them move forward in their life,they are really much more
likely to return.
And the other one really has todo, you know, we're talking
(29:04):
about students who choose totake this long break.
Some students which was reallya little more the focus of what
I was looking at are studentswho leave college not by their
choice.
They're dismissed, they'reacademically dismissed because
they weren't ready or becauseyou know, whatever reason.
(29:25):
And and it it's sometimes alittle harder for them to come
back.
Oh sure, because they have tobuild the confidence and that's
where those positiverelationships for parents.
But the quote that I have camefrom one of our favorite books,
which is the gift of failure, byjessica leahy love it
absolutely and we can link to itin the show notes, but the
(29:47):
quote quote was in her book, butit actually isn't her quote.
She's quoting a high schoolteacher named Jonathan Shea and
he put it this way, quotestudents recover, People do it
all the time and the failurehelps them learn about
themselves.
First, they learn that peoplewant them to be okay.
Second, they learn that theycan overcome a problem, but that
(30:11):
work and attention are moreimportant than genius or
perfection.
Students need to fail becausethis is when they learn to
succeed.
And I, you know, I think for me, for this population of
students, whether the failure isthat they failed out and were
dismissed or just that theyfailed to persist to continue
(30:33):
straight through the value thatthey get from it is more than we
sometimes think about.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And that's one of our repeating themes as well that
students learn from theirmistakes as well.
That students learn from theirmistakes.
They learn when things don't goaccording to plan.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
They often learn tremendous amounts and those
students who are short-term orlong-term in the middle gap need
to take the initiative toreturn.
Colleges aren't chasing whenyou're in high school.
The colleges are chasing youdown.
They want admissions andthey're after you.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Later on not so much.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
They're not, but if you know the student just
reaches out to the admissionsoffice or whatever, and often a
readmission to the sameinstitution is a very simple
thing.
It's not the whole big ordealthat admissions was eventually
yeah.
So I want to talk about anothergroup, and that's a group that
(31:35):
doesn't leave but might bespending more than four years to
finish their degree Yep.
Which is becoming much more thenorm.
Graduation rates calculate asix-year graduation rate because
(31:58):
the number of students who arespending more than four years to
complete their degree isgrowing, and these are students.
Some of these students entercollege and I've advised some of
these students planning on fiveyears.
I know I'm not going to be ableto take these heavy loads.
I want a slightly lighter loadeach semester because I'm going
(32:21):
to be better able and it's okaywith me if it takes me five
years to amass the courses andthe credits that I need.
And then there are otherstudents who planned on four
years but life happened and itcould be they fooled around too
much.
It could be that somethinghappened in their life an
illness, a family death, afamily crisis and they take
(32:45):
longer.
And sometimes we call thesestudents super seniors because
they've already done that routeof being a freshman and a
sophomore and a junior and asenior.
And here they are continuingand they're what we call super
seniors.
But they need to realize thatthey are more the norm now that
(33:06):
it takes a little longer.
So it could be because notnecessarily, but because they
changed a major too late,perhaps to be able then to
finish in the four years.
Maybe they transferred.
That doesn't necessarily meanit's going to take them longer,
but it just depends on what'sgoing on, those lifestyle
choices, um, that they have madethat may have slowed them down.
(33:28):
Sometimes they have to repeatfailed classes or, um they're
they missed scheduling certainrequirements when they needed
them, class rotations the thingsthat they needed weren't
offered when they needed themand it was a little bit out of
their control.
They've withdrawn from too manyclasses.
You know a student will behaving trouble in a class.
(33:49):
They say, oh, I'm going towithdraw and that's fine.
Sometimes I always say the Wstands for wisdom.
But if they do that too manytimes now, they're behind in
credits.
So the bottom line is oftenstudents need to raise their GPA
.
Perhaps it's too low tograduate, or they need credits,
or they need requirements, andso they become a super, super
(34:13):
senior.
And I think there are a coupleof things for them to think
about.
First is both they and parentsneed to come to terms with it.
It's going to take longerSometimes.
For parents that means thinkingabout the finances.
This is going to be more timeFor the student to recognize.
They may feel a little out ofplace because their friends may
(34:36):
be graduating and they're stillhanging around.
Parents and students need totalk about it.
That's a theme we did, that'sone of our themes when in doubt,
talk to your student and Ithink for parents to remind
students that they're not alonein this and to really talk
together about what theirexpectations are for this extra
(34:59):
year um, and to for students towork with their advisor to make
sure that they are now checkingall the boxes and doing um, and
for parents to talk to thefinancial aid office to see
whether aid continues or or whatum, because it's going to be a
different kind of a year and themore that the student can make
it feel like a different year, Ithink, the more comfortable
(35:22):
some students are in being superseniors.
So, for instance, if they justneed credits not certain courses
, but just credits thinkingabout maybe heavier internship
credits, getting out, doingthings that are going to get
them experience and get them offcampus a little more, doing
(35:43):
other things, doing morecommunity service, getting out
in the community, working, andthen also thinking, okay, I'm
spending an extra year, I know afew things.
Maybe they can share some ofwhat they have learned with
other students by being a TA,being a mentor, being a peer
advisor or a tutor?
If they just need credits,could they study abroad?
(36:08):
Could they study away, which iswhere you don't go abroad but
you go somewhere other thanwhere you've spent four years?
I just need to get some credits.
Does my college have apartnership with another school
in another part of the country?
And could I have that sense ofdoing something different?
You mentioned maybe doinginformational interviews,
(36:35):
looking at career options,working on building their resume
, applications for jobs, joininga professional organization
related to your career andgetting involved in that, or
just plain doing some things youdidn't have time to do any
other time.
Join a club, do somethingcreative or whatever.
(36:58):
So whatever students can do tomake that fifth year feel a
little different that oftenhelps.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
Another group of students in that fifth year is
the growing group of studentswho are getting their master's
degree along with their bachelorof arts degree.
More and more colleges areoffering a fifth-year program
that adds in the master's degree, so that's also another group
of students, right.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
And so they often start in their junior and senior
year doing some classes thatcount toward the master's,
toward the master's degree.
And then they just stay insteadof going off somewhere else.
Yeah, that's something, and itfeels like investigating a
five-year master's.
When you're just coming in as afreshman, it feels like it's a
(37:50):
really long way away.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
But looking at that, so the last group of students,
yeah are the fast track students.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
So these are the students who don't even want to
spend four years.
They aim to try to finish inthree or sometimes three and a
half years.
And if that's what you want todo and a lot of students do and
more and more are, because itsaves you a year of tuition,
right, uh, and and and it alsosome students do it just because
(38:22):
they're so anxious to get out.
I want to get out.
I have an advisee right nowwho's working on finishing.
Um, he will.
He will be here next year.
He has one more year.
It would be his junior year,but it will be here next year.
He has one more year.
It would be his junior year, butit will be his last year.
And I said why?
I'm not telling you shouldn'tdo it, but what's your rationale
(38:44):
, why do you want to do it?
And he said I just want to getout there, I want to be doing
this, I don't want to sit in theclassroom learning about this
anymore, I want to do it.
They still have to do the samenumber of credits, take the same
number of courses andeverything.
(39:04):
So it really takes a specialstudent who really is focused.
And I had a student, an advisee,a couple of years ago she
finished a couple of years agowho finished in three years and
she did everything.
I mean she still was in clubs,she still worked at the radio
station, she worked on campus,she did all kinds of things.
But she had been very focusedvery early on, even in high
(39:26):
school, and by the time she cameto college she had done a
couple of AP classes, advancedplacement classes and taken the
test.
So she had college credit forher psychology and, I think, her
math and a writing class orsomething like that.
She had done some dualenrollment classes where, as
(39:50):
part of your high schoolcurriculum, you take a college
class.
Some high schools offer this andsome don't, but she had done a
couple of dual enrollmentclasses.
She had done a couple of summerclasses so that she had gotten
some college credit, and she haddone a couple of CLEP exams,
(40:11):
which it's C-L-E-P that's ourjargon which are college-level
examination program classeswhere a student picks a subject
maybe that they already knowsomething about, they study it,
they get some textbooks, theystudy it.
I think it costs about $60 or$70 to register and take an exam
(40:32):
and if you pass the exam youhave credit for the course.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
And that's a lot cheaper than three credits,
which is expensive.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
So by the time she was a freshman, she was really a
sophomore and then she didthings like you could take.
An average load is between 12and 18 credits a semester.
Three credit classes, so youtake between four and six.
Most students take about 15credits a semester.
Three credit classes, so youtake between four and six.
Most students take about 15credits a semester.
Five classes she did six everysemester and she also, I have to
(41:07):
say, graduated with a 4.0.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Unbelievable.
She was an amazing kid.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
This is unusual.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So a lot of people aren't going to do all of these
things, but it's just the arrayof things that she can do.
I was her advisor.
She worked very closely with meto make sure she was getting
the right things and when werethings going to be off.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So this is a real student.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yes, this is a real student.
This is amazing.
And she went on to become ateacher.
She went on and did it.
She was a communicationundergraduate and then she said
you know, I think what I reallywant to do is teach.
And so she went on to get amaster's in education and become
a teacher.
So she did all of those things.
(41:50):
Some students might need to beprepared for a little less free
time as they do all of this.
She was just so efficient thatshe was able to do it all.
Um and oh.
The other one was winterintercession and classes, and
she, she did those.
So that was all the stuff thatthis particular student did.
But, uh, mix and match and andyou really can, with some focus
(42:13):
and planning and carefullyworking finish in three students
in three years.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
So the bottom line is that there are many ways to do
college and it depends on thestudent, it depends on the
family, it depends on so manythings, but there are choices
and it's not the same way forevery student, right?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
I mean, it just isn't right and coming in with a plan
and then being flexible.
Yeah, so there are students whocome in with the fast track I'm
going to do it in three yearsand then they find out no, it's
going to take me four.
Um, because?
Because I recognize that sixclasses a semester is too much
(43:01):
or whatever.
Or students who think they'regoing to do it in four years and
they end up in five years, orstudents who think they're going
to come in and then go out andthey'll be done and they take a
gap.
It's really exciting to thinkabout how many different ways
there are to do college now.
So students and parents need totalk, need to think, need to
(43:23):
lay out all the options andinvestigate the options,
investigate the gap years, thepost-grad, the things you can do
to speed yourself along anddecide what feels right
absolutely.
Absolutely so well, that's yourhomework parents, to have some
conversations with your studentabout expectations.
(43:45):
You know, if a parent thinksit's going to happen in three
years and the student isthinking I'm going to take four
years at least, you need to talkand decide.
You know what's going to work.
So we hope this gave you somethings to think about and to
talk to your student about, andwe are really appreciative that,
if you're still here, you stuckthrough to the end with us and
(44:10):
we hope you have wonderfulconversations with your student
about how it goes.
And please check out theCollege Parent Central website.
We will have show notes therewith a couple of links of things
that we've talked about, and ifyou know anyone who you think
would find this podcast helpfulor the website helpful, please
(44:32):
pass it along, because word ofmouth is often the best.
So thanks so much for beinghere with us and we will see you
next time.
See you later.
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