May 7, 2025 • 51 mins
What happens when bright, capable students seem completely unmotivated about their future? Dr. Ellen Braaten, author of Bright Kids Who Couldn’t Care Less joins us to unpack this phenomenon that can leave you feeling frustrated and worried. We talked about motivation - how it's not just about "trying harder" but rather a delicate interplay between initiation (the spark), persistence (the ability to continue), and intensity (the fuel that sustains effort).Dr. Braaten shared a framework for understanding what truly motivates young adults by examining the intersection of their aptitudes (natural abilities), pleasures (what they enjoy), and practice (what they willingly spend time doing). Whether your student is currently struggling with motivation or you're planning ahead for their transition to college, this conversation offers invaluable insights for supporting their authentic development.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome everybody to the College Parent Central
podcast.
I'm Elizabeth Hamblett, youroccasional co-host and the
author of Seven Steps to CollegeSuccess a Pathway for Students
with Disabilities.
Today, I have the pleasureagain of having a friend and
colleague here.
I am so excited to have DrEllen Broughton on with us today
(01:07):
.
I have known her for a numberof years and I love her work.
Ellen is a processing speedexpert and a psychologist, and
her latest book is one that Ithink is really, really
important for parents of highschool students who are thinking
about college, bright kids whocouldn't care less.
And I'm holding it up for thoseof us who are watching the
(01:29):
video.
We all have our copies.
Mine is very well highlighted,so I want to get us started.
Ellen, why don't you telleverybody a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So I'm a child psychologist, as you said, my
areas of research interest is inprocessing speed.
I started out reallyresearching ADHD and I'm a
neuropsychologist in terms of myprivate practice.
I'm also an associate professorat Harvard Medical School,
where I do some teaching andresearch, and I became
(02:01):
interested in this topic becauseI was seeing a lot of kids with
processing speed issues whogrew up and as they were growing
up into high school and youngadulthood, I saw that many of
them didn't seem to be verymotivated or didn't have the
skills to stay motivated and Ithought it was a processing
speed issue.
And then, as I kind of lookedmore broadly, I found that no, a
(02:25):
lot of the kids that I'm seeing, even if they don't have
processing speed issues, havetrouble with motivation.
And then I always have to addthat as I started writing this
book, the pandemic happened andmotivation has been a problem
for many of us, for the lastfive years.
So it became a more timely topicthat I sort of made it a little
bit of a broader book than Iexpected it to be.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Well, I'm going to jump in here and introduce
myself.
I'm the other co-host heretoday.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication
at a small liberal arts collegeand also have three daughters
who have gone to college.
So come to this topic ofcollege parenting at both as a
(03:08):
as a professional and as aparent.
And I am also excited to havean opportunity to talk with
Ellen today, because there's somuch in this book that I see in
the classroom all the time too,even on the college level.
So it's not just about youngerchildren growing up.
(03:29):
We see it all the way throughthat young adulthood.
And I'd like to start with thebasics, because I'm aware that
sometimes, you know, it'swonderful to talk as
professionals we all talktogether but sometimes for some
parents out there, you know someof the things we get involved
(03:50):
in that may not be as clear.
So your book is Bright Kids whoCouldn't Care Less, but it also
has a subtitle and it's how torekindle your child's motivation
.
So and you talked aboutmotivation so I want to really
start on that basic level forall of us and sort of set the
(04:11):
table and ask what do we mean bymotivation?
What exactly are we talkingabout and what's it made up of?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So that's a great question.
To start with, in the simplestdefinition of motivation, is the
reason why we do the thingsthat we do.
Why do we do something?
Well, because we're motivatedto do it.
Sometimes we're motivated fromwithin, sometimes we're
motivated from without, which is, I'm sure, we'll talk more
about in a minute but itoftentimes has the idea that
somehow we can just come up withmotivation, like, just get
(04:45):
motivated, just do it.
It's not like that and itreally has a number of different
parts to it.
Some of the parts really have alot to do with executive
function skills.
So motivation requiresinitiation.
You have to have a spark to getgoing.
You have to be motivatedbecause you've got some sort of
drive, some sort of like bit ofyou know.
Like I said, a spark to getgoing.
(05:06):
You have to then persist at itand then you have to have an
intensity.
So I kind of think about it as,like the three things, that we
need to have a fire continue, wehave to have a spark, we have
to have air that allows the fireto keep burning, and that we've
got to have fuel for the fireso that it's intense and so it's
(05:30):
not just a one-time thing.
So you might have a child who'sgot a lot of motivation to get
started on something, but theydon't know how to persist at it
or they can't sustain thatintensity.
Sometimes that has to do with alack of ability.
Sometimes it has to do withpoor executive function skills.
They don't know how to getorganized.
Sometimes kids are motivated atthe end of something but they
can't get started because theycan't pick a topic.
(05:52):
And so kids with learningdisabilities, adhd, any kinds of
learning differences,neurodivergent kids sometimes
have more trouble with thisbecause it requires skills and
we don't think about motivationas a skill set.
We think of it as you know, thesort of thing that parents tell
you just start practicing.
You know, keep going at it.
(06:12):
But it's not that simple.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
It's really interesting to hear you separate
out the kind of the spark thatignites things and the ability
to persist with it.
I'm thinking of a student thatI had last semester and he
wasn't living up to hispotential and he'd be the first
to admit it.
And I saw him at the beginningof second semester.
(06:36):
He said new semester, new me.
He had that spark but it didn'tlast long.
So that really resonates withwhat I see a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah, ellen, you mentioned the inside and outside
, and in the book you talk aboutintrinsic motivation and
extrinsic motivation.
Again, those are terms thatprobably most of us know, but
just to make sure we're all onthe same page, can you talk
about those differences?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah.
So intrinsic motivation isreally thought of.
The better motivation it's theinside.
We're doing it because we loveit, because we want to do it.
We're motivated to read a bookbecause we love reading.
We're motivated to finish aproject because we really want
to see the end product and welove it.
(07:31):
Extrinsic motivation is thatmotivation that comes from
outside of us.
So, just to give you an example, we probably may be all
familiar with the study that wasdone and some of your listeners
may remember this from theintro psych class that was done
looking at reading and rewardingkids for reading.
And what they found is thatwhen we reward children for
reading books, for example, themore books they read, the more
external motivators they got Iforget what it was, but prizes
(07:54):
or money.
The less kids liked to read,the less they wanted to do
something for themselves,because they got the idea that
reading was something that youdid because you got paid to do
it.
And so we have to think aboutthat as we're doing motivate,
you know, as we're trying toincrease motivation.
(08:15):
And so intrinsic motivationcomes from knowing yourself.
It comes from knowing whatyou're good at.
It comes from trying lots ofdifferent things and sorting
through them and saying you knowwhat you're good at.
It comes from trying lots ofdifferent things and sorting
through them and saying you know, yeah, I'm not so motivated to
learn to knit, but I want tolearn to, you know, play tennis
or whatever it is.
And there is a place forextrinsic motivation.
It's not a dirty word.
(08:35):
We all need extrinsicmotivation in our lives.
We needed to.
You know, we go to work becausewe have a paycheck.
We clean out the garage becausewe're going to have a beer
after we finish or we're goingto have, you know, get an ice
cream cone or something.
When we're done, that, thoseextrinsic motivation is very
good when we have something wereally don't want to do but we
need to get it done.
When it's sort of last minutesor like I've got to get this
(08:57):
done, you know I'll rewardmyself at the end, and so there
are places for extrinsicmotivation.
But what we're really thinkingabout is finding that intrinsic,
helping our children find thatintrinsic motivation, so a job
that they're intrinsicallymotivated to do but they also
want to get paid to do it.
That's kind of our goal in lifeis to be in that sort of plane,
(09:18):
and we can't always be there,but that's sort of our goal.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Yeah, that helps a lot, Boy.
It makes me think of grades asthat extrinsic motivator that
sometimes works and sometimesdoesn't.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
That's a perfect example and sometimes it does
work for some kids.
And that's the thing.
Like some kids are motivated bygrades.
It's tangible, they have youknow, it helps them understand
and other kids it doesn't mean athing or can be demotivating
too.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
You know, one of the things I really like about one
of many, many, many, many thingsI really like about your book
is that you end each chapterwith that little bit of
something to think about andsomething to talk about and
something to do which is reallytangible for parents.
And right at the beginning,chapter one, you suggest that
(10:17):
one of the things parents can dois make two lists Make a list
of things that their childdoesn't seem to care about and
then make a list of thebehaviors that show them that
their child doesn't care.
So I'm curious can you talk alittle bit about why those two
lists and what those lists helpparents see or understand?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, it came out of my own experience working with
parents that we were talking inthese general terms and had no
idea what the behaviors were.
And you can't intervene with abehavior unless you know what
you're talking about.
So to say your child isunmotivated.
For a while I was sort of like,well, let's work with this
unmotivated child, what doesthat mean?
(11:02):
What does it mean?
And so we've got to identifythe problem.
We've got to identify well,you're saying unmotivated.
Tell me what they'reunmotivated about.
Is it school?
They may come in thinking it'severything, they just don't care
about anything.
And when we start to talk aboutit it's like, well, he's really
unmotivated in chemistry andphysics.
(11:22):
Or maybe he's unmotivated inall and physics, you know and
and, but.
Or maybe he's unmotivated inall aspects of school, or to get
to school on time.
But he loves his job at WholeFoods.
He's there on time all the time.
So it helps us kind of sortthrough what it is.
It also helps parents not toover-catastrophize, and then it
helps us then figure out what todo and also the behaviors where
(11:47):
we can intervene.
So you know what is thebehavior that you're seeing.
That's the outcome of thisdemotivated child.
Well, okay, let's start withone behavior.
Let's start with getting schoolon time, for example.
I mean, that's not the perfectexample, but but you know it
just helps clarify because wedon't know what we're talking
(12:07):
about.
Unmotivated child just feelsoverwhelming to parents.
It is just, it's their worstnightmare.
They think their child will bedepressed, live in their
basement, never go to college,never be a successful adult.
It feels so overwhelming tothem.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And I think that that's a nice lead-in to, you
know, our next question.
Because you know, thiscatastrophizing, I think, is
something that happens toparents and then you know, by
extension, to their kids, thatthis idea that college is this,
you know, and I love this, thisexpression, you use holy grail
(12:46):
and fire killer and how this,you know, process is so
demotivating.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You know, because a lot of people have a sense that
it's the only way to besuccessful.
So how do we get here?
So can I share a personal storywith you?
So I love that Vicki mentionedshe has two children.
My children are now adults andmy daughter was a very motivated
(13:13):
student, the sort that wasmotivated by grades and all of
those things.
My son was not.
He had some learningdifferences.
He's a fabulous kid and supersocial, very interested, and at
a very young age I don'tremember exactly when it was my
mother said to me, and my motherdidn't graduate from college.
And she said to me you know,not every child needs to go to
(13:35):
college.
And I was so angry at her andthis is, at least I would say,
15 years ago at least, and 15years ago there was no
discussion about you can't go tocollege, not in any suburban
school and by suburban I meanlike suburban Toledo, ohio, I'm
(13:55):
not just talking about Bostonand so I was really mad at her
because I thought everybodyneeds to go to college.
That is how people succeed, andwhat we've learned since then
is it's not necessarily theperfect place for every single
child at age 18.
What I find and as it turns out.
(14:17):
My son went to college.
He got through about threeyears as we sort of pushed him
through and never finished yet,but he might.
Three years as we sort ofpushed him through and never
finished yet, but he might.
And so I see this, I saw thisplay out with so many other
families.
My perspective evolvedcompletely over the last 10 to
(14:37):
15 years.
I saw parents getting into debt.
I saw kids coming homedepressed after their freshman
year and suicidal, super anxious.
We created another problembecause we didn't fix the first
one and what happens, I find, isfor a lot of students who don't
feel ready for college, theyshow that they're not ready by
(15:00):
just checking out, by becomingvery unmotivated.
Sometimes this happens as earlyas seventh and eighth grade,
definitely by 10th and 11thgrade.
If you've got a child that'snot showing up for class, that
they are showing you they arenot going to show up for their
college classes at freshman yearand this does not necessarily
mean they're not ready forcollege, but maybe they're not.
(15:22):
And I really feel like somekids get anxious about the
perspective of college.
They're tired, they've beenworking, they've been writing in
journals since they were three,like seriously in preschool,
and they're just tired and theydon't know how to bring up the
conversation of I don't knowwhat I want to do, I don't know
(15:44):
if I'll be successful in college, I don't have the skills that I
can have to be successful incollege.
So what they do and I've justseen an epidemic of this is they
just stop being motivated withanything.
That's their way of saying Idon't like the path you're
setting for me and so I'm goingto make sure you cannot put me
on that path.
(16:05):
And what we need in this case isto have a lot of discussions.
Hey, let's talk about college.
We need to talk about this infreshman year of high school,
sophomore, junior.
We need to really have a lot ofdiscussions and we need to let
go of our assumptions that thereis one way of becoming an adult
and that is really.
(16:25):
I mean, I've had parents cry inmy office who've said I don't
know, I can't go to graduationif my child isn't going to
college.
Like I can't show up at theirhigh school graduation, people
will.
What will they think of me?
That's how important this orthis?
Not important, that's not eventhe right word.
But stigmatizing going tocollege is that we are willing
(16:49):
to send our children away justto be like everybody else and
they're telling us I might needa different way or a different
path, different kind of collegeexperience.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So and you know this book, as I recall is, is and I
think you mentioned is anoutgrowth of your last book,
bright Kids who Can't Keep Up.
You Are this Processing SpeedExpert and you talk about slow
processing speed, sappingmotivation for students.
(17:23):
So you know this is part of myaudience is parents of students
with learning disabilities andADHD and autism, and you know
for them, I would imagine youknow this is an even bigger you
know issue.
So can you talk a little bitabout the link between
processing speed and motivation?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
The simplest way to say it is if you're always
feeling behind, it's hard tostay motivated.
It's just, it's really thatsimple.
And so you know, and all of thethings that you talked about
autism spectrum, learningdisabilities we found there's a
high association with processingspeed.
It's part of the, it's part ofyou know, part of the symptoms
(18:06):
that we oftentimes see.
Processing speed can be areally wonderful thing.
There are kids who really have alot to offer in terms of their
ability to slow the world downand their ability to sort of see
things in a different way inyou know the small things, but
in life, in high school, it isnot about that at all.
(18:29):
And in middle school and sothat's where I would see a lot
of kids with processing speedweaknesses start to drop out as
the workload got quicker, faster, more that it's just.
It's even if they wanted to bemotivated, even if they were,
even if they loved the topic,they just couldn't keep up with
the workload.
(18:50):
And all of us becomeunmotivated when we are in jobs
or situations or we just can'tdo it in the time allotted.
It's just.
There is no way to staymotivated when it's like I can't
get this done and so so it'skind of that simple, and so
that's why accommodations are soimportant.
(19:11):
You're sort of thinking aboutthe educational experience, and
perhaps even the the path tocollege, as being something
different or something new, andso, yeah, it's really that
simple.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So you do evaluations of students to see if they
possibly have a learningdisability or ADHD, and you talk
in the book about the extremesof these parents that you see.
So they either see theirstudents as all strengths or all
weakness.
And you've already talked aboutthe labeling of, you know, an
(19:47):
unmotivated student you know.
So can you talk a little bitabout how, why those extremes
are kind of unhelpful and alsothis sort of pervasive tendency
to want to label stuff and howthis figures into this whole
college discussion too?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
So I think that this is this comes from a place of
love and anxiety in parents.
We want to see, you know, weall think our child can do
absolutely anything in theirlife and we will love them.
I think I might talk in thebook like when I was pregnant
with my daughter.
I was like she could doanything and all of a sudden the
thing that popped in my headwas not an accountant.
(20:25):
It's just sort of like I don'tknow why that popped in my head,
but I, you know, I'm sort of amore language artsy kind of
person.
I appreciate the sciences, butaccounting just seems so boring.
I want a child.
We enter into parenting thinkingour child's going to be special
.
No, child really is.
(20:46):
None of us are all that special.
Most of us will not becomepresident of the United States,
you know.
So I think that oftentimes oneway that we guard against that
sort of tenderness as parents isto sort of elevate our child in
a way they're wonderful at this, they're great at that, I mean.
So that's one way that we canjust sort of you know, love them
(21:09):
in our own you know way, thebest we can.
But then what happens is thatsometimes I find it's this.
You know this happens in thesame parenting.
We find that they're notperfect, they're not going to be
a world class violinist or astalker, and so then what
happens is everything they doisn't right.
(21:32):
And that also comes from aplace of anxiety, I think,
because parents are like I amoverwhelmed, I'm so scared that
nothing's going to work, and sothey tend to have this black and
white kind of view about theirchild, and of course it's not
helpful either.
One Kids know when they're, youknow when I can.
I've had many parents in myoffice saying like you know, I
(21:54):
don't care if they're not doingwell in school.
You know, the Bill Gates didn'tgraduate from college either
and the child is saying like Isee the child later, and they're
like I'm not that good at this,like they'll say this to me,
like I'm not a math superstar,I'm just like everybody else.
So kids know this and it's it'sa source of anxiety then for
the child, and of course, on theother hand, they feel terrible
(22:16):
when their parent thinks thatthey're not capable.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I was going to say can you talk?
You know you talk about howhigh parental expectations can
lead to anxiety, and I think youknow there's some very good
books about that as well, likeJennifer Braheny Wallace's Never
Enough.
We just talked to Bill, youknow, bill Stixrota and Ned
Johnson right Self-Driven.
Child.
(22:41):
They're all such good books.
So, at the same time, you talkabout low expectations for
students and how those aredemotivating.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, what I find more in.
I mean, I'll bring this back tomy mother.
Her original thing was, likenot every child needs to go to
college because they've got ADHD, you know.
So we can sometimes have thatlow expectation.
Our child has a learningdifference, so okay, well,
whatever, they don't have thepotential.
When that's not true, of coursewe know that learning
(23:11):
differences can make you moreresilient, actually, and so so
and then.
So if we have these sort of lowexpectations, especially if a
child is showing real symptomsof being unmotivated, so if
they're unmotivated and don'tseem to care, oftentimes what
happens is parents just give up.
(23:32):
It's like, okay, well, he's notgoing to amount to anything.
And so there's a middle ground,like when a child is being
unmotivated, that doesn'tnecessarily mean they're not
college bound.
It means that they're notcollege bound in the way that we
think they should be collegebound, and so we don't have
those discussions with them.
No-transcript, they cancatastrophize, and so it and
(24:22):
it's.
You know, they're not wrongeither.
So sometimes it's too hard forthem to tackle the problem.
They don't know how to do it,they don't know who to talk to.
Too hard for them to tackle theproblem.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
They don't know how to do it.
They don't know who to talk to.
So, if I can follow up on that,as you're talking about
expectations, in the book youtalk about the differences if I
remember correctly betweenexpectations and aspirations.
What's that difference about?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, I know, you know aspirations are big sort of
ideas.
You know the aspiration that mychild is going to be a
successful adult.
I have an aspiration that, eventhough go to college, but the
expectations are more about Imean using these very general,
but it's more sort of like goalsand objectives, you know, and
so the expectations are thethings that lead us to our
(25:15):
aspirations.
You know we don't know weaspire to do certain things in
life Oftentimes we don't makethem.
But that's okay, it's what keepsus going.
It's what keeps us.
You know you might have anaspiration to write a novel
someday.
That doesn't mean necessarilywe'll do it, but you know it's
something, that it's the bigpicture stuff that motivates us,
where the expectations are thethings that we need in order to
(25:38):
sort of keep moving towards ouraspirational goals.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
That helps.
Thanks, it helps.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So you know we've now talked about how parents view
their students and you talkabout this difference between
aptitude and ability, because Ithink you know there's some
discussions where parents justthink because a student is
capable, they're going to do allof these things, or
expectations are very high, butthere is a difference between
aptitude and ability.
(26:08):
So can you explain that?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
to us.
Yeah, so aptitude is reallyabout our I'm not going to use I
use these terms, I even wrotesome notes about this so I can,
so it makes sense.
But aptitude is really ournatural ability to do something.
I know I'm reusing the terms,but you know like we have an
aptitude, maybe towards music,for example.
(26:30):
You know we see the childstarts out, seems pretty musical
, or they're, they're, they seemto be great on the soccer field
.
But the ability or the skillsthat we need to have in order to
use our aptitudes, or it's thetime we need set aside in our
schedule in order to be able todevelop our aptitude.
(26:51):
So aptitudes is something youknow we're naturally.
We kind of have a naturalability to do something.
But that ability requiresskills, it requires that fuel,
it requires being persistent atsomething.
So that's where both of thosethings are kind of important for
motivation.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Vicki yeah, no, I'm processing that a little bit
Slow processing A little slow.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
processing here.
It's a lot of terms right now.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Well, you know I'm trying to.
I was sort of trying to thinkyou use the idea of you know
someone having an aptitude formusic, but not necessarily.
But not necessarily, I mean, Icould see someone who that
aptitude it's not the same asinterest, but you know, there's
something musical that's drawingme, but then maybe not the
(27:45):
ability to sing, and so maybeit's some other aspect of music
that can feed that aptitudeexactly.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, that's a very, that's a very good example of,
yeah, having an aptitude towardssomething, but there are a
million ways to not.
Maybe not a million dozens ofways to do that, so you can be a
music critic.
You can just love music as partof your, you know, free time.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So then that helps you refine, and that's so
important.
I mean, I work with collegestudents all the time and
they're often obsessing aboutcareer.
You know, what am I going to do?
What am I?
You know, yes, I want to be.
I teach in a communicationdepartment.
I want to be a communicationmajor, but that's so broad, so
(28:38):
maybe I have an aptitude forthat, but I haven't figured out
whether it's broadcasting orfilm, or theater or PR or
whatever.
Yeah, that opens up a lot ofways of thinking about it, about
(29:01):
it, you know.
Going back to the idea of goals, you talk about the importance
of setting goals for motivation,but then you also say that
starting with goals can becounterproductive, because so
often I think we want to goright to that tangible.
Well, here's something I cancheck off and do.
So it sort of leads me to acouple of questions, because I
(29:21):
love to pack three questionsinto one here.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Okay, I hope.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I can remember them all.
It's our brand.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Yeah, I know I'm sneaking them in, but I'm
wondering, you know to talk alittle bit about what makes a
good goal, and how does startingwith a goal become
counterproductive, and why is itnot?
You say it's not the end pointbut the beginning of the journey
(29:49):
.
So I think those they all kindof go together in terms of
thinking about goals and when tostart and how they work.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
So I'm going to even back up one point for this too.
So I had another question ortopic to this, and that is I
think we start with goals,because sometimes goals are just
about interests.
You know, especially forcollege students and when you're
thinking about career, like I'minterested in being a pilot,
for example, like studyingaviation, but they've never
(30:18):
flown a plane, you know, do youknow what I mean?
They don't have a skill set.
So goals oftentimes start notfrom a real understanding of who
we are.
So one of the things I talkabout in the book is this idea
of looking at a child's aptitude, the things that give them
pleasure and the things theylike to do or practice.
(30:39):
So I call it the aptitude,practice and pleasure.
So I think goals really need tocome from looking at sort of
the if you think about this as aVenn diagram looking at the
intersection of those Like whatare my aptitudes, what do I tend
to be good at?
Now, we already talked aboutthe fact that sometimes the
things we're good at we don'treally want to do because they
don't give us pleasure.
(30:59):
So I think about the childwho's very good at hockey, but
they're like I don't like beingon the ice every day.
So you know like I don't wantto do that.
So we've got to look at.
So I have an aptitude for this,but does it give me pleasure
and is it the sort of thing thatI like to spend time doing,
which is practice?
So you know, if we have kidswho aspire to do something or be
(31:20):
something, but they've neverspent any time doing it, they
don't even know if it bringsthem pleasure.
Maybe they don't have theaptitude for it.
That might not be a good goal,and so that doesn't mean we
can't get them towards that, butwe've got to sort of analyze
that.
Okay, well, you've got to spendtime doing this before we make
that your long-term goal.
The goal needs to be let's getyou the skills you need.
(31:42):
For example, let's give yousome time to be able to practice
this an internship or practicumor something like that and so
that you have the, you know wecan find out if it brings you
pleasure or not.
So that's where I think goalsreally need to start with that.
And then I think the other thingthat you brought up is that
goals tend to be we made thegoal, now we're done, and it's
(32:04):
really just a starting point.
And that's where that, when wetalked about you know the
persistence being part ofmotivation.
Persistence means checking inall the time about okay, I made
this goal, do I really stillwant this goal?
Like I can change my ideas,Like this is not the career for
me.
(32:24):
And people do this late in lifewhen they're like I've been
doing this job for 10 years, Idon't want to do this anymore.
So we need to teach those skillsmuch earlier in life.
We need to teach those skillsmuch earlier in life, and we
need to revisit goals because wedon't always have the skills or
the support systems in place tohelp us continue to persist at
(32:45):
those goals.
So, even if it's a perfect goal, we need that tended to.
It's like, you know, a gardenwe need to continue.
Or maybe like a fire you know,we need to keep feeding the fire
.
We need to keep making sureit's got enough oxygen and air
to grow.
So that's why it's reallyimportant to check on those
goals, and I think that's thehardest thing for all of us to
(33:08):
do.
We set goals for ourselves andthen all of a sudden, we don't
meet them and it's because wenever really looked as to
whether or not we had everything.
We need to keep going.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah, it seems to me we need to work.
We need to work harder athaving those conversations with
students early.
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinkingabout the students that I see
every day and I don't thinkanyone has continually said to
them you know, it's okay toreevaluate your goals, it's okay
(33:40):
to change, because they justfeel they're set, and especially
those students who often cometo college absolutely set.
I know I want to be a fill inthe blank.
I know I want to be a policeofficer blank.
I know I want to be a policeofficer, that's I'm going to be
a criminal justice major, that'swhat I'm going to do.
(34:01):
And then they take that firstclass or two in criminal justice
and say this doesn't feel right.
And now they're panickingbecause it never occurred to
them that it's okay to shift.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
In fact it's a wonderful thing, like what a
wonderful thing to know that soquickly.
Like how many times in ourlives as adults did we not learn
that lesson?
So to sort of celebrate that asopposed to saying well, you
know, maybe take another classand they get tremendous pressure
from parents.
Parents get nervous, they'relike wait a minute, you've
(34:35):
always wanted to do this.
Now, what are you going to do?
It feels unstable, but it's anopportunity.
I think we have to sort ofreframe a lot of this.
Like great, you learned this,isn't this wonderful?
Now, what are we going to do?
Let's take a look andoftentimes with students I'll do
that Venn diagram Like, let'stake another look, tell me again
(35:01):
, what do you feel like you'rereally good at, what do you
really love doing, what do youspend time doing?
And it helps them sort of movea little bit in that direction
of making new goals.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, and as we're, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
It's good for us to know that, but we need to keep
getting that message to the kids.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And what I was going to say is you know I'm thinking
about the choices of collegemajors, because you know, as
Ellen was saying, like sometimessomebody starts college
thinking I want to do this,researching the requirements of
majors is really, reallyimportant Because, you know,
sometimes there are a lot ofthings you have to do that
students aren't interested in,but they don't know that until
they're in a program and nowthey're starting to look at the
(35:50):
courses they're taking forcollege.
One of the things that I oftensuggest is that all students
should be looking at the generalgraduation requirements of any
colleges on their list, becauseI certainly had to do a lot of
things I didn't necessarily findinteresting to get out of
college.
Aside from, you know, oftenstudents are motivated by what's
(36:12):
in their major, but at a lot ofinstitutions you have to meet
these general ed requirements,and so you know, I have two
college graduates in my house.
One was an art school grad andthe other was an engineering
school grad, and they didn'thave to take all those general
ed requirements that I had totake and I think that delighted
them.
And so you know, if we'retalking about how much
(36:35):
motivation it takes to getthrough college, just generally.
I really think that should befor any student part of the
college search and you can findall that stuff online.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I think so too.
I could give you one otherstory yeah please.
I have a niece who's now has amaster's degree in counseling
and she started out our firstsemester as an English major
because she likes to read bookslike Harry Potter and stuff.
And so she got into her firstday of class and the teacher was
(37:05):
like what's everyone's favoritebooks?
And they were like Jane Austenand Moby Dick and all this.
She's like I haven't read anyof these books.
You know Moby Dick and all this.
She's like I haven't read anyof these books.
She knew immediately like, andhers was like Harry Potter, and
so she you know she wasn't inEnglish, it's not like she
didn't like to read, but shewasn't an English major kind of
student.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
You know what?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I mean, she's like that's not what she likes to
read, nor does she really likethat kind, and it was really an
incompatibility in knowing evenwhat the major was.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I do think that we don't talk a lot about that.
So, and that first semester isso important, especially if
somebody goes in, it's like Iwant to be a criminal justice, I
want to be a major and theyrealize that I had no idea this
is what was going to.
I didn't know I was going tohave to read like you know, like
British literature and Tolstoy,Like this is not what I signed
(38:02):
up for.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
The other thing that I often suggest to students is
when they think they know acareer I want to be a police
officer, nurse, whatever isdoing a lot of informational
interviews, talking to peoplewho have those jobs and just
spending 20 minutes and sayingtell me about your day, tell me
what you do, what's the hardestpart of your job, what's the
(38:26):
part of your job that you loveand they can really get a sense
of that.
I think I often tell this story.
One of my three daughters, andone of them at one point wanted
to be a midwife and great, andshe did just that.
She found some midwives andwent and spent 20 minutes with
(38:47):
them and asked them and she cameback and said I don't want to
be a midwife.
She still loved the concept butthey're self-employed much of
the time.
They have to be on 24-7 notice,they don't know what you know,
and it was some of those aspectsof the job that she learned
about and that made a difference, better than after going
(39:10):
through a whole program andgraduating.
So lots of ways for them tofind what part of it motivates
them.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And I don't think we do enough of that in our high
schools.
We don't do enough.
When I was in high school,years and years ago, I thought I
wanted to be an occupationaltherapist because I think you
know I like to help people.
It seemed interesting, itseemed very specific, and we
went to a high school, you know,a day at the community hospital
on on like medical things, andI was like I don't want to do
(39:41):
that, I can't like do a splint,like I'm terrible with anything.
They were doing all sorts oflike things, like machines, and
I'm like I'm terrible with allthat stuff.
I knew immediately OK, itwasn't the career for me.
So I think you're right, butit's oftentimes we're in the
right area, kids are in theright area, but it's the
specifics that really make upthe job.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Yeah, my daughter became a nurse.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah exactly there you go and it fills her like I'm
on a shift.
When I'm done, I'm done, I canlive my life.
I love the work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
So just kind of rounding the bend on this, you
know you have pages 162, 163,164 talk about college readiness
and this really struck mebecause one of the things you
mention is is your studentfilling out the college
(40:37):
applications themselves.
And you know, as somebody whois in contact with parents of
students, again, with learningdisabilities, adhd, through my
outreach, I will hear fromparents like we are doing this
and you know, we this and wethat, and they're kind of it's
(40:58):
my sense sometimes that they aredragging their students through
this process and I feel thisyou know anxiety that you're
talking about that.
A lot of parents feel like,well, we just have to get
through this process right andthen they're going to be fine.
We just have to get throughthis process right and then
(41:18):
they're going to be fine.
And I think, too sorry, this isnot a very organized thought,
but sometimes when parents havecome to you, their students have
already had some failures right.
They're coming for anevaluation for the first time,
and so I understand, as a parentmyself, like you've already
seen, your kids struggle to dothings and if, hopefully,
eventually, if a problem isidentified, they can have some
strategies that help them besuccessful.
(41:40):
But I think, when it comes tothe college stuff, that is the
place where parents are saying,oh my God, like it has to get
done.
You know they've already hadthese failure experiences and
now we have to make sure theyget through this and it's hard
for them to back off.
Make sure they get through thisand it's hard for them to back
off.
But all of these, you know,signs of a student's
(42:00):
demotivation or not lack ofmotivation, feel like they're
there.
So you know, have yousuccessfully convinced parents
whose kids are not participatingin this college application
process to back off, and whatwould you recommend for parents
who are seeing those signs?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
So the first thing we need to do is have
conversations with our kids.
We don't ask them.
I didn't do that either.
You know, it's just like you'regoing to college.
Let's just find one that kindof meets your needs, that you
like enough, and that's wherewe're going.
And so one of the things thatI've seen that sort of has
(42:37):
changed my mind is the number ofkids who have come back
depressed, anxious, failed, andso when you're talking about a
child who's already had multiplefailures in their lives or what
feels like failures orstruggles, to go into college
and then sort of have theultimate failure to have to, you
(42:58):
know, is just devastating, thennow we have a completely
different sort of situation.
Now we have a young adult whonow has no direction, and so so
I have convinced some parentsand it's a hard one, and it's
(43:18):
the discussion that I often havewith parents earlier in high
school rather than later.
We need to be thinking aboutwhat your child wants to do, and
sometimes what I find is theparents.
Their default is they'll liveat home and go to community
college.
Well, all right.
Their default is they live athome and go to community college
.
Well, all right, that's okay.
But the things that I look foris does your child really want
(43:42):
to go to college?
It is so expensive and I haveseen so many families mortgage
their house, deplete theirretirement savings, be in debt
for $250,000.
You know they're, you knowworking as an office
administrator, you know, andit's their whole salary.
(44:03):
And so you've got to know,first of all, does your child
love learning?
If that's, if the answer is yes, that's a valid reason to go to
college.
Even if you don't know what todo.
I love learning, I can't waitto go Great.
The other really good reason isyou know what you want to do.
I want to be a nurse.
I don't love school, but Ireally want to be a nurse.
I really want to teachpreschool.
(44:25):
I really.
That's another good reason.
And both of those, you know ifit's the second reason, we need
to have all hands on deck tofigure out how do we make this
child successful, how do we givethem the accommodations, the
support they need to besuccessful.
But both of those reasons aregreat reasons to go to college.
(44:52):
After that it gets kind ofcomplicated because it's
sometimes just the default,because they don't know what
they want to do, and we get veryanxious because we think, okay,
if they don't go to collegethis year, they'll never go and
so we need to have other sortsof ways of thinking.
The trades apprenticeshipsapplying to college and
deferring is another way to kindof feel like, okay, we've got a
(45:13):
plan, let's figure out somethings to do this year.
I oftentimes find that kids whohave learning differences, who
work at a job where they feelcompetent like working at a
coffee shop, working at ahardware store, the gap all of a
sudden they're like thesuperstar, they're really
hardworking, they know what itmeans to work hard, they've you
(45:37):
know.
All of a sudden they're like Ireally like the world of work,
but I want to just be a checkerall day at the coffee shop.
So I'm now motivated to go backto college and that deferment
that I took.
Maybe that's not where I want togo, maybe I want to reapply.
So I think having a lot ofdifferent options is really
(45:58):
important.
And the other thing I think,too, is that we can't leave out
the kids who want to go tocollege and can't Financial
reasons they don't have thefamily support that helps them
fill out the paperwork, like weneed to be thinking not just
(46:22):
about.
You know, the privileged kidswho you know aren't filling out
their college applications, butthe kids who aren't, who need
the support to do that as well.
So it's we just have to thinkabout this as a huge process
that kids need, you know, tohave a lot of agency in.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Wow, that's it, I think that's.
I want to keep talking.
Wow, I want to keep talking.
I want to keep going and going,and going.
(46:56):
Always motivated to go tocollege but isn't ready.
It doesn't have the executivefunction, the organization, all
of that and thinking about howto, how to deal with that.
So, in terms of being ready, interms of motivation, in terms
of caring about things I'mthinking about the title of your
book, kids who Couldn't CareLess what would you leave
(47:17):
parents with?
What is the bottom line if youcould?
Just here's what I want toleave you to think about.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
Oh, so this is what popped in my head when you said
this.
I've said this before Love thechild you have, not the child
you wish you had.
And I think that's what gets usin trouble a lot of times is we
don't look at the wonderful kidwe were given, we look at the
child who we dreamed about, andoftentimes, that child that we
dream about, we want them to doall the things we didn't do.
(47:48):
So the last thing I would sayis, as parents, we need to
figure out what we want to do,because the more that we are
motivated, the more that we aredoing things we love, we
oftentimes forget about thethings that give us pleasure.
We give our kids a terriblerole model for how to be
motivated, how to stay motivated, how to, you know, find the
pleasure in our life that helpsus, you know.
(48:10):
So I think that that's what Iwould leave them with.
You know, make sure you'refinding pleasure in your life
and make sure you're loving thekid that you have.
That wonderful kid who'swhatever?
Quirky, motivated, unmotivated,slow processors, speedy, speedy
, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
Yeah, great thoughts.
So tell us one more time aboutboth of your books.
And if people, if people well,the two I have in my hand and if
they, if people want to followup, want to find out more, where
can they find you?
Speaker 3 (48:48):
So my website is very easy, it's just
ellenbroughtonphdcom, and wehave some, you know, articles
and things like that on there,podcasts like this we'll post on
there.
And then the two books.
The titles are very similar.
One is Bright Kids who Can'tKeep Up, that's about processing
speed, and then this one thatwe've talked about, bright Kids
(49:08):
who Couldn't Care Less.
So they're very different, eventhough the titles are very
similar.
The first one is really aboutkids with slower processing
speed and the other one is, ofcourse, about motivation.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
So, ok, great Thanks.
So I'm sure we've talked enoughthat I can imagine everybody's
going to want to go and read thebook.
So we are really grateful toyou for spending this much time
with us today and sharing thosethoughts, and we hope that
everybody will follow up andlots to think about.
(49:43):
So thank you so much to EllenBroughton for telling us about
motivation.
Thanks, thank you so much forhaving me.
Welcome to the College Parent Central podcast.
Whether your child is justbeginning the college admission
process or is already in college, this podcast is for you.
You'll find food for thoughtand information about college
and about navigating thatdelicate balance of guidance,
involvement and knowing when toget out of the way.
(00:31):
Join your hosts as they sharesupport and a celebration of the
amazing experience of having achild in college.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Welcome everybody to the College Parent Central
podcast.
I'm Elizabeth Hamblett, youroccasional co-host and the
author of Seven Steps to CollegeSuccess a Pathway for Students
with Disabilities.
Today, I have the pleasureagain of having a friend and
colleague here.
I am so excited to have DrEllen Broughton on with us today
(01:07):
.
I have known her for a numberof years and I love her work.
Ellen is a processing speedexpert and a psychologist, and
her latest book is one that Ithink is really, really
important for parents of highschool students who are thinking
about college, bright kids whocouldn't care less.
And I'm holding it up for thoseof us who are watching the
(01:29):
video.
We all have our copies.
Mine is very well highlighted,so I want to get us started.
Ellen, why don't you telleverybody a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
So I'm a child psychologist, as you said, my
areas of research interest is inprocessing speed.
I started out reallyresearching ADHD and I'm a
neuropsychologist in terms of myprivate practice.
I'm also an associate professorat Harvard Medical School,
where I do some teaching andresearch, and I became
(02:01):
interested in this topic becauseI was seeing a lot of kids with
processing speed issues whogrew up and as they were growing
up into high school and youngadulthood, I saw that many of
them didn't seem to be verymotivated or didn't have the
skills to stay motivated and Ithought it was a processing
speed issue.
And then, as I kind of lookedmore broadly, I found that no, a
(02:25):
lot of the kids that I'm seeing, even if they don't have
processing speed issues, havetrouble with motivation.
And then I always have to addthat as I started writing this
book, the pandemic happened andmotivation has been a problem
for many of us, for the lastfive years.
So it became a more timely topicthat I sort of made it a little
bit of a broader book than Iexpected it to be.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Well, I'm going to jump in here and introduce
myself.
I'm the other co-host heretoday.
My name is Vicki Nelson and Iam a professor of communication
at a small liberal arts collegeand also have three daughters
who have gone to college.
So come to this topic ofcollege parenting at both as a
(03:08):
as a professional and as aparent.
And I am also excited to havean opportunity to talk with
Ellen today, because there's somuch in this book that I see in
the classroom all the time too,even on the college level.
So it's not just about youngerchildren growing up.
(03:29):
We see it all the way throughthat young adulthood.
And I'd like to start with thebasics, because I'm aware that
sometimes, you know, it'swonderful to talk as
professionals we all talktogether but sometimes for some
parents out there, you know someof the things we get involved
(03:50):
in that may not be as clear.
So your book is Bright Kids whoCouldn't Care Less, but it also
has a subtitle and it's how torekindle your child's motivation
.
So and you talked aboutmotivation so I want to really
start on that basic level forall of us and sort of set the
(04:11):
table and ask what do we mean bymotivation?
What exactly are we talkingabout and what's it made up of?
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So that's a great question.
To start with, in the simplestdefinition of motivation, is the
reason why we do the thingsthat we do.
Why do we do something?
Well, because we're motivatedto do it.
Sometimes we're motivated fromwithin, sometimes we're
motivated from without, which is, I'm sure, we'll talk more
about in a minute but itoftentimes has the idea that
somehow we can just come up withmotivation, like, just get
(04:45):
motivated, just do it.
It's not like that and itreally has a number of different
parts to it.
Some of the parts really have alot to do with executive
function skills.
So motivation requiresinitiation.
You have to have a spark to getgoing.
You have to be motivatedbecause you've got some sort of
drive, some sort of like bit ofyou know.
Like I said, a spark to getgoing.
(05:06):
You have to then persist at itand then you have to have an
intensity.
So I kind of think about it as,like the three things, that we
need to have a fire continue, wehave to have a spark, we have
to have air that allows the fireto keep burning, and that we've
got to have fuel for the fireso that it's intense and so it's
(05:30):
not just a one-time thing.
So you might have a child who'sgot a lot of motivation to get
started on something, but theydon't know how to persist at it
or they can't sustain thatintensity.
Sometimes that has to do with alack of ability.
Sometimes it has to do withpoor executive function skills.
They don't know how to getorganized.
Sometimes kids are motivated atthe end of something but they
can't get started because theycan't pick a topic.
(05:52):
And so kids with learningdisabilities, adhd, any kinds of
learning differences,neurodivergent kids sometimes
have more trouble with thisbecause it requires skills and
we don't think about motivationas a skill set.
We think of it as you know, thesort of thing that parents tell
you just start practicing.
You know, keep going at it.
(06:12):
But it's not that simple.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
It's really interesting to hear you separate
out the kind of the spark thatignites things and the ability
to persist with it.
I'm thinking of a student thatI had last semester and he
wasn't living up to hispotential and he'd be the first
to admit it.
And I saw him at the beginningof second semester.
(06:36):
He said new semester, new me.
He had that spark but it didn'tlast long.
So that really resonates withwhat I see a lot.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah, ellen, you mentioned the inside and outside
, and in the book you talk aboutintrinsic motivation and
extrinsic motivation.
Again, those are terms thatprobably most of us know, but
just to make sure we're all onthe same page, can you talk
about those differences?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah.
So intrinsic motivation isreally thought of.
The better motivation it's theinside.
We're doing it because we loveit, because we want to do it.
We're motivated to read a bookbecause we love reading.
We're motivated to finish aproject because we really want
to see the end product and welove it.
(07:31):
Extrinsic motivation is thatmotivation that comes from
outside of us.
So, just to give you an example, we probably may be all
familiar with the study that wasdone and some of your listeners
may remember this from theintro psych class that was done
looking at reading and rewardingkids for reading.
And what they found is thatwhen we reward children for
reading books, for example, themore books they read, the more
external motivators they got Iforget what it was, but prizes
(07:54):
or money.
The less kids liked to read,the less they wanted to do
something for themselves,because they got the idea that
reading was something that youdid because you got paid to do
it.
And so we have to think aboutthat as we're doing motivate,
you know, as we're trying toincrease motivation.
(08:15):
And so intrinsic motivationcomes from knowing yourself.
It comes from knowing whatyou're good at.
It comes from trying lots ofdifferent things and sorting
through them and saying you knowwhat you're good at.
It comes from trying lots ofdifferent things and sorting
through them and saying you know, yeah, I'm not so motivated to
learn to knit, but I want tolearn to, you know, play tennis
or whatever it is.
And there is a place forextrinsic motivation.
It's not a dirty word.
(08:35):
We all need extrinsicmotivation in our lives.
We needed to.
You know, we go to work becausewe have a paycheck.
We clean out the garage becausewe're going to have a beer
after we finish or we're goingto have, you know, get an ice
cream cone or something.
When we're done, that, thoseextrinsic motivation is very
good when we have something wereally don't want to do but we
need to get it done.
When it's sort of last minutesor like I've got to get this
(08:57):
done, you know I'll rewardmyself at the end, and so there
are places for extrinsicmotivation.
But what we're really thinkingabout is finding that intrinsic,
helping our children find thatintrinsic motivation, so a job
that they're intrinsicallymotivated to do but they also
want to get paid to do it.
That's kind of our goal in lifeis to be in that sort of plane,
(09:18):
and we can't always be there,but that's sort of our goal.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Yeah, that helps a lot, Boy.
It makes me think of grades asthat extrinsic motivator that
sometimes works and sometimesdoesn't.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
That's a perfect example and sometimes it does
work for some kids.
And that's the thing.
Like some kids are motivated bygrades.
It's tangible, they have youknow, it helps them understand
and other kids it doesn't mean athing or can be demotivating
too.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
You know, one of the things I really like about one
of many, many, many, many thingsI really like about your book
is that you end each chapterwith that little bit of
something to think about andsomething to talk about and
something to do which is reallytangible for parents.
And right at the beginning,chapter one, you suggest that
(10:17):
one of the things parents can dois make two lists Make a list
of things that their childdoesn't seem to care about and
then make a list of thebehaviors that show them that
their child doesn't care.
So I'm curious can you talk alittle bit about why those two
lists and what those lists helpparents see or understand?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, it came out of my own experience working with
parents that we were talking inthese general terms and had no
idea what the behaviors were.
And you can't intervene with abehavior unless you know what
you're talking about.
So to say your child isunmotivated.
For a while I was sort of like,well, let's work with this
unmotivated child, what doesthat mean?
(11:02):
What does it mean?
And so we've got to identifythe problem.
We've got to identify well,you're saying unmotivated.
Tell me what they'reunmotivated about.
Is it school?
They may come in thinking it'severything, they just don't care
about anything.
And when we start to talk aboutit it's like, well, he's really
unmotivated in chemistry andphysics.
(11:22):
Or maybe he's unmotivated inall and physics, you know and
and, but.
Or maybe he's unmotivated inall aspects of school, or to get
to school on time.
But he loves his job at WholeFoods.
He's there on time all the time.
So it helps us kind of sortthrough what it is.
It also helps parents not toover-catastrophize, and then it
helps us then figure out what todo and also the behaviors where
(11:47):
we can intervene.
So you know what is thebehavior that you're seeing.
That's the outcome of thisdemotivated child.
Well, okay, let's start withone behavior.
Let's start with getting schoolon time, for example.
I mean, that's not the perfectexample, but but you know it
just helps clarify because wedon't know what we're talking
(12:07):
about.
Unmotivated child just feelsoverwhelming to parents.
It is just, it's their worstnightmare.
They think their child will bedepressed, live in their
basement, never go to college,never be a successful adult.
It feels so overwhelming tothem.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And I think that that's a nice lead-in to, you
know, our next question.
Because you know, thiscatastrophizing, I think, is
something that happens toparents and then you know, by
extension, to their kids, thatthis idea that college is this,
you know, and I love this, thisexpression, you use holy grail
(12:46):
and fire killer and how this,you know, process is so
demotivating.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You know, because a lot of people have a sense that
it's the only way to besuccessful.
So how do we get here?
So can I share a personal storywith you?
So I love that Vicki mentionedshe has two children.
My children are now adults andmy daughter was a very motivated
(13:13):
student, the sort that wasmotivated by grades and all of
those things.
My son was not.
He had some learningdifferences.
He's a fabulous kid and supersocial, very interested, and at
a very young age I don'tremember exactly when it was my
mother said to me, and my motherdidn't graduate from college.
And she said to me you know,not every child needs to go to
(13:35):
college.
And I was so angry at her andthis is, at least I would say,
15 years ago at least, and 15years ago there was no
discussion about you can't go tocollege, not in any suburban
school and by suburban I meanlike suburban Toledo, ohio, I'm
(13:55):
not just talking about Bostonand so I was really mad at her
because I thought everybodyneeds to go to college.
That is how people succeed, andwhat we've learned since then
is it's not necessarily theperfect place for every single
child at age 18.
What I find and as it turns out.
(14:17):
My son went to college.
He got through about threeyears as we sort of pushed him
through and never finished yet,but he might.
Three years as we sort ofpushed him through and never
finished yet, but he might.
And so I see this, I saw thisplay out with so many other
families.
My perspective evolvedcompletely over the last 10 to
(14:37):
15 years.
I saw parents getting into debt.
I saw kids coming homedepressed after their freshman
year and suicidal, super anxious.
We created another problembecause we didn't fix the first
one and what happens, I find, isfor a lot of students who don't
feel ready for college, theyshow that they're not ready by
(15:00):
just checking out, by becomingvery unmotivated.
Sometimes this happens as earlyas seventh and eighth grade,
definitely by 10th and 11thgrade.
If you've got a child that'snot showing up for class, that
they are showing you they arenot going to show up for their
college classes at freshman yearand this does not necessarily
mean they're not ready forcollege, but maybe they're not.
(15:22):
And I really feel like somekids get anxious about the
perspective of college.
They're tired, they've beenworking, they've been writing in
journals since they were three,like seriously in preschool,
and they're just tired and theydon't know how to bring up the
conversation of I don't knowwhat I want to do, I don't know
(15:44):
if I'll be successful in college, I don't have the skills that I
can have to be successful incollege.
So what they do and I've justseen an epidemic of this is they
just stop being motivated withanything.
That's their way of saying Idon't like the path you're
setting for me and so I'm goingto make sure you cannot put me
on that path.
(16:05):
And what we need in this case isto have a lot of discussions.
Hey, let's talk about college.
We need to talk about this infreshman year of high school,
sophomore, junior.
We need to really have a lot ofdiscussions and we need to let
go of our assumptions that thereis one way of becoming an adult
and that is really.
(16:25):
I mean, I've had parents cry inmy office who've said I don't
know, I can't go to graduationif my child isn't going to
college.
Like I can't show up at theirhigh school graduation, people
will.
What will they think of me?
That's how important this orthis?
Not important, that's not eventhe right word.
But stigmatizing going tocollege is that we are willing
(16:49):
to send our children away justto be like everybody else and
they're telling us I might needa different way or a different
path, different kind of collegeexperience.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
So and you know this book, as I recall is, is and I
think you mentioned is anoutgrowth of your last book,
bright Kids who Can't Keep Up.
You Are this Processing SpeedExpert and you talk about slow
processing speed, sappingmotivation for students.
(17:23):
So you know this is part of myaudience is parents of students
with learning disabilities andADHD and autism, and you know
for them, I would imagine youknow this is an even bigger you
know issue.
So can you talk a little bitabout the link between
processing speed and motivation?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
The simplest way to say it is if you're always
feeling behind, it's hard tostay motivated.
It's just, it's really thatsimple.
And so you know, and all of thethings that you talked about
autism spectrum, learningdisabilities we found there's a
high association with processingspeed.
It's part of the, it's part ofyou know, part of the symptoms
(18:06):
that we oftentimes see.
Processing speed can be areally wonderful thing.
There are kids who really have alot to offer in terms of their
ability to slow the world downand their ability to sort of see
things in a different way inyou know the small things, but
in life, in high school, it isnot about that at all.
(18:29):
And in middle school and sothat's where I would see a lot
of kids with processing speedweaknesses start to drop out as
the workload got quicker, faster, more that it's just.
It's even if they wanted to bemotivated, even if they were,
even if they loved the topic,they just couldn't keep up with
the workload.
(18:50):
And all of us becomeunmotivated when we are in jobs
or situations or we just can'tdo it in the time allotted.
It's just.
There is no way to staymotivated when it's like I can't
get this done and so so it'skind of that simple, and so
that's why accommodations are soimportant.
(19:11):
You're sort of thinking aboutthe educational experience, and
perhaps even the the path tocollege, as being something
different or something new, andso, yeah, it's really that
simple.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
So you do evaluations of students to see if they
possibly have a learningdisability or ADHD, and you talk
in the book about the extremesof these parents that you see.
So they either see theirstudents as all strengths or all
weakness.
And you've already talked aboutthe labeling of, you know, an
(19:47):
unmotivated student you know.
So can you talk a little bitabout how, why those extremes
are kind of unhelpful and alsothis sort of pervasive tendency
to want to label stuff and howthis figures into this whole
college discussion too?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
So I think that this is this comes from a place of
love and anxiety in parents.
We want to see, you know, weall think our child can do
absolutely anything in theirlife and we will love them.
I think I might talk in thebook like when I was pregnant
with my daughter.
I was like she could doanything and all of a sudden the
thing that popped in my headwas not an accountant.
(20:25):
It's just sort of like I don'tknow why that popped in my head,
but I, you know, I'm sort of amore language artsy kind of
person.
I appreciate the sciences, butaccounting just seems so boring.
I want a child.
We enter into parenting thinkingour child's going to be special
.
No, child really is.
(20:46):
None of us are all that special.
Most of us will not becomepresident of the United States,
you know.
So I think that oftentimes oneway that we guard against that
sort of tenderness as parents isto sort of elevate our child in
a way they're wonderful at this, they're great at that, I mean.
So that's one way that we canjust sort of you know, love them
(21:09):
in our own you know way, thebest we can.
But then what happens is thatsometimes I find it's this.
You know this happens in thesame parenting.
We find that they're notperfect, they're not going to be
a world class violinist or astalker, and so then what
happens is everything they doisn't right.
(21:32):
And that also comes from aplace of anxiety, I think,
because parents are like I amoverwhelmed, I'm so scared that
nothing's going to work, and sothey tend to have this black and
white kind of view about theirchild, and of course it's not
helpful either.
One Kids know when they're, youknow when I can.
I've had many parents in myoffice saying like you know, I
(21:54):
don't care if they're not doingwell in school.
You know, the Bill Gates didn'tgraduate from college either
and the child is saying like Isee the child later, and they're
like I'm not that good at this,like they'll say this to me,
like I'm not a math superstar,I'm just like everybody else.
So kids know this and it's it'sa source of anxiety then for
the child, and of course, on theother hand, they feel terrible
(22:16):
when their parent thinks thatthey're not capable.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I was going to say can you talk?
You know you talk about howhigh parental expectations can
lead to anxiety, and I think youknow there's some very good
books about that as well, likeJennifer Braheny Wallace's Never
Enough.
We just talked to Bill, youknow, bill Stixrota and Ned
Johnson right Self-Driven.
Child.
(22:41):
They're all such good books.
So, at the same time, you talkabout low expectations for
students and how those aredemotivating.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, what I find more in.
I mean, I'll bring this back tomy mother.
Her original thing was, likenot every child needs to go to
college because they've got ADHD, you know.
So we can sometimes have thatlow expectation.
Our child has a learningdifference, so okay, well,
whatever, they don't have thepotential.
When that's not true, of coursewe know that learning
(23:11):
differences can make you moreresilient, actually, and so so
and then.
So if we have these sort of lowexpectations, especially if a
child is showing real symptomsof being unmotivated, so if
they're unmotivated and don'tseem to care, oftentimes what
happens is parents just give up.
(23:32):
It's like, okay, well, he's notgoing to amount to anything.
And so there's a middle ground,like when a child is being
unmotivated, that doesn'tnecessarily mean they're not
college bound.
It means that they're notcollege bound in the way that we
think they should be collegebound, and so we don't have
those discussions with them.
No-transcript, they cancatastrophize, and so it and
(24:22):
it's.
You know, they're not wrongeither.
So sometimes it's too hard forthem to tackle the problem.
They don't know how to do it,they don't know who to talk to.
Too hard for them to tackle theproblem.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
They don't know how to do it.
They don't know who to talk to.
So, if I can follow up on that,as you're talking about
expectations, in the book youtalk about the differences if I
remember correctly betweenexpectations and aspirations.
What's that difference about?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, I know, you know aspirations are big sort of
ideas.
You know the aspiration that mychild is going to be a
successful adult.
I have an aspiration that, eventhough go to college, but the
expectations are more about Imean using these very general,
but it's more sort of like goalsand objectives, you know, and
so the expectations are thethings that lead us to our
(25:15):
aspirations.
You know we don't know weaspire to do certain things in
life Oftentimes we don't makethem.
But that's okay, it's what keepsus going.
It's what keeps us.
You know you might have anaspiration to write a novel
someday.
That doesn't mean necessarilywe'll do it, but you know it's
something, that it's the bigpicture stuff that motivates us,
where the expectations are thethings that we need in order to
(25:38):
sort of keep moving towards ouraspirational goals.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
That helps.
Thanks, it helps.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So you know we've now talked about how parents view
their students and you talkabout this difference between
aptitude and ability, because Ithink you know there's some
discussions where parents justthink because a student is
capable, they're going to do allof these things, or
expectations are very high, butthere is a difference between
aptitude and ability.
(26:08):
So can you explain that?
Speaker 3 (26:09):
to us.
Yeah, so aptitude is reallyabout our I'm not going to use I
use these terms, I even wrotesome notes about this so I can,
so it makes sense.
But aptitude is really ournatural ability to do something.
I know I'm reusing the terms,but you know like we have an
aptitude, maybe towards music,for example.
(26:30):
You know we see the childstarts out, seems pretty musical
, or they're, they're, they seemto be great on the soccer field
.
But the ability or the skillsthat we need to have in order to
use our aptitudes, or it's thetime we need set aside in our
schedule in order to be able todevelop our aptitude.
(26:51):
So aptitudes is something youknow we're naturally.
We kind of have a naturalability to do something.
But that ability requiresskills, it requires that fuel,
it requires being persistent atsomething.
So that's where both of thosethings are kind of important for
motivation.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Vicki yeah, no, I'm processing that a little bit
Slow processing A little slow.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
processing here.
It's a lot of terms right now.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Well, you know I'm trying to.
I was sort of trying to thinkyou use the idea of you know
someone having an aptitude formusic, but not necessarily.
But not necessarily, I mean, Icould see someone who that
aptitude it's not the same asinterest, but you know, there's
something musical that's drawingme, but then maybe not the
(27:45):
ability to sing, and so maybeit's some other aspect of music
that can feed that aptitudeexactly.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, that's a very, that's a very good example of,
yeah, having an aptitude towardssomething, but there are a
million ways to not.
Maybe not a million dozens ofways to do that, so you can be a
music critic.
You can just love music as partof your, you know, free time.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So then that helps you refine, and that's so
important.
I mean, I work with collegestudents all the time and
they're often obsessing aboutcareer.
You know, what am I going to do?
What am I?
You know, yes, I want to be.
I teach in a communicationdepartment.
I want to be a communicationmajor, but that's so broad, so
(28:38):
maybe I have an aptitude forthat, but I haven't figured out
whether it's broadcasting orfilm, or theater or PR or
whatever.
Yeah, that opens up a lot ofways of thinking about it, about
(29:01):
it, you know.
Going back to the idea of goals, you talk about the importance
of setting goals for motivation,but then you also say that
starting with goals can becounterproductive, because so
often I think we want to goright to that tangible.
Well, here's something I cancheck off and do.
So it sort of leads me to acouple of questions, because I
(29:21):
love to pack three questionsinto one here.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Okay, I hope.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I can remember them all.
It's our brand.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Yeah, I know I'm sneaking them in, but I'm
wondering, you know to talk alittle bit about what makes a
good goal, and how does startingwith a goal become
counterproductive, and why is itnot?
You say it's not the end pointbut the beginning of the journey
(29:49):
.
So I think those they all kindof go together in terms of
thinking about goals and when tostart and how they work.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
So I'm going to even back up one point for this too.
So I had another question ortopic to this, and that is I
think we start with goals,because sometimes goals are just
about interests.
You know, especially forcollege students and when you're
thinking about career, like I'minterested in being a pilot,
for example, like studyingaviation, but they've never
(30:18):
flown a plane, you know, do youknow what I mean?
They don't have a skill set.
So goals oftentimes start notfrom a real understanding of who
we are.
So one of the things I talkabout in the book is this idea
of looking at a child's aptitude, the things that give them
pleasure and the things theylike to do or practice.
(30:39):
So I call it the aptitude,practice and pleasure.
So I think goals really need tocome from looking at sort of
the if you think about this as aVenn diagram looking at the
intersection of those Like whatare my aptitudes, what do I tend
to be good at?
Now, we already talked aboutthe fact that sometimes the
things we're good at we don'treally want to do because they
don't give us pleasure.
(30:59):
So I think about the childwho's very good at hockey, but
they're like I don't like beingon the ice every day.
So you know like I don't wantto do that.
So we've got to look at.
So I have an aptitude for this,but does it give me pleasure
and is it the sort of thing thatI like to spend time doing,
which is practice?
So you know, if we have kidswho aspire to do something or be
(31:20):
something, but they've neverspent any time doing it, they
don't even know if it bringsthem pleasure.
Maybe they don't have theaptitude for it.
That might not be a good goal,and so that doesn't mean we
can't get them towards that, butwe've got to sort of analyze
that.
Okay, well, you've got to spendtime doing this before we make
that your long-term goal.
The goal needs to be let's getyou the skills you need.
(31:42):
For example, let's give yousome time to be able to practice
this an internship or practicumor something like that and so
that you have the, you know wecan find out if it brings you
pleasure or not.
So that's where I think goalsreally need to start with that.
And then I think the other thingthat you brought up is that
goals tend to be we made thegoal, now we're done, and it's
(32:04):
really just a starting point.
And that's where that, when wetalked about you know the
persistence being part ofmotivation.
Persistence means checking inall the time about okay, I made
this goal, do I really stillwant this goal?
Like I can change my ideas,Like this is not the career for
me.
(32:24):
And people do this late in lifewhen they're like I've been
doing this job for 10 years, Idon't want to do this anymore.
So we need to teach those skillsmuch earlier in life.
We need to teach those skillsmuch earlier in life, and we
need to revisit goals because wedon't always have the skills or
the support systems in place tohelp us continue to persist at
(32:45):
those goals.
So, even if it's a perfect goal, we need that tended to.
It's like, you know, a gardenwe need to continue.
Or maybe like a fire you know,we need to keep feeding the fire
.
We need to keep making sureit's got enough oxygen and air
to grow.
So that's why it's reallyimportant to check on those
goals, and I think that's thehardest thing for all of us to
(33:08):
do.
We set goals for ourselves andthen all of a sudden, we don't
meet them and it's because wenever really looked as to
whether or not we had everything.
We need to keep going.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah, it seems to me we need to work.
We need to work harder athaving those conversations with
students early.
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinkingabout the students that I see
every day and I don't thinkanyone has continually said to
them you know, it's okay toreevaluate your goals, it's okay
(33:40):
to change, because they justfeel they're set, and especially
those students who often cometo college absolutely set.
I know I want to be a fill inthe blank.
I know I want to be a policeofficer blank.
I know I want to be a policeofficer, that's I'm going to be
a criminal justice major, that'swhat I'm going to do.
(34:01):
And then they take that firstclass or two in criminal justice
and say this doesn't feel right.
And now they're panickingbecause it never occurred to
them that it's okay to shift.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
In fact it's a wonderful thing, like what a
wonderful thing to know that soquickly.
Like how many times in ourlives as adults did we not learn
that lesson?
So to sort of celebrate that asopposed to saying well, you
know, maybe take another classand they get tremendous pressure
from parents.
Parents get nervous, they'relike wait a minute, you've
(34:35):
always wanted to do this.
Now, what are you going to do?
It feels unstable, but it's anopportunity.
I think we have to sort ofreframe a lot of this.
Like great, you learned this,isn't this wonderful?
Now, what are we going to do?
Let's take a look andoftentimes with students I'll do
that Venn diagram Like, let'stake another look, tell me again
(35:01):
, what do you feel like you'rereally good at, what do you
really love doing, what do youspend time doing?
And it helps them sort of movea little bit in that direction
of making new goals.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, and as we're, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
It's good for us to know that, but we need to keep
getting that message to the kids.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And what I was going to say is you know I'm thinking
about the choices of collegemajors, because you know, as
Ellen was saying, like sometimessomebody starts college
thinking I want to do this,researching the requirements of
majors is really, reallyimportant Because, you know,
sometimes there are a lot ofthings you have to do that
students aren't interested in,but they don't know that until
they're in a program and nowthey're starting to look at the
(35:50):
courses they're taking forcollege.
One of the things that I oftensuggest is that all students
should be looking at the generalgraduation requirements of any
colleges on their list, becauseI certainly had to do a lot of
things I didn't necessarily findinteresting to get out of
college.
Aside from, you know, oftenstudents are motivated by what's
(36:12):
in their major, but at a lot ofinstitutions you have to meet
these general ed requirements,and so you know, I have two
college graduates in my house.
One was an art school grad andthe other was an engineering
school grad, and they didn'thave to take all those general
ed requirements that I had totake and I think that delighted
them.
And so you know, if we'retalking about how much
(36:35):
motivation it takes to getthrough college, just generally.
I really think that should befor any student part of the
college search and you can findall that stuff online.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I think so too.
I could give you one otherstory yeah please.
I have a niece who's now has amaster's degree in counseling
and she started out our firstsemester as an English major
because she likes to read bookslike Harry Potter and stuff.
And so she got into her firstday of class and the teacher was
(37:05):
like what's everyone's favoritebooks?
And they were like Jane Austenand Moby Dick and all this.
She's like I haven't read anyof these books.
You know Moby Dick and all this.
She's like I haven't read anyof these books.
She knew immediately like, andhers was like Harry Potter, and
so she you know she wasn't inEnglish, it's not like she
didn't like to read, but shewasn't an English major kind of
student.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
You know what?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I mean, she's like that's not what she likes to
read, nor does she really likethat kind, and it was really an
incompatibility in knowing evenwhat the major was.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I do think that we don't talk a lot about that.
So, and that first semester isso important, especially if
somebody goes in, it's like Iwant to be a criminal justice, I
want to be a major and theyrealize that I had no idea this
is what was going to.
I didn't know I was going tohave to read like you know, like
British literature and Tolstoy,Like this is not what I signed
(38:02):
up for.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
The other thing that I often suggest to students is
when they think they know acareer I want to be a police
officer, nurse, whatever isdoing a lot of informational
interviews, talking to peoplewho have those jobs and just
spending 20 minutes and sayingtell me about your day, tell me
what you do, what's the hardestpart of your job, what's the
(38:26):
part of your job that you loveand they can really get a sense
of that.
I think I often tell this story.
One of my three daughters, andone of them at one point wanted
to be a midwife and great, andshe did just that.
She found some midwives andwent and spent 20 minutes with
(38:47):
them and asked them and she cameback and said I don't want to
be a midwife.
She still loved the concept butthey're self-employed much of
the time.
They have to be on 24-7 notice,they don't know what you know,
and it was some of those aspectsof the job that she learned
about and that made a difference, better than after going
(39:10):
through a whole program andgraduating.
So lots of ways for them tofind what part of it motivates
them.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
And I don't think we do enough of that in our high
schools.
We don't do enough.
When I was in high school,years and years ago, I thought I
wanted to be an occupationaltherapist because I think you
know I like to help people.
It seemed interesting, itseemed very specific, and we
went to a high school, you know,a day at the community hospital
on on like medical things, andI was like I don't want to do
(39:41):
that, I can't like do a splint,like I'm terrible with anything.
They were doing all sorts oflike things, like machines, and
I'm like I'm terrible with allthat stuff.
I knew immediately OK, itwasn't the career for me.
So I think you're right, butit's oftentimes we're in the
right area, kids are in theright area, but it's the
specifics that really make upthe job.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Yeah, my daughter became a nurse.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah exactly there you go and it fills her like I'm
on a shift.
When I'm done, I'm done, I canlive my life.
I love the work, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
So just kind of rounding the bend on this, you
know you have pages 162, 163,164 talk about college readiness
and this really struck mebecause one of the things you
mention is is your studentfilling out the college
(40:37):
applications themselves.
And you know, as somebody whois in contact with parents of
students, again, with learningdisabilities, adhd, through my
outreach, I will hear fromparents like we are doing this
and you know, we this and wethat, and they're kind of it's
(40:58):
my sense sometimes that they aredragging their students through
this process and I feel thisyou know anxiety that you're
talking about that.
A lot of parents feel like,well, we just have to get
through this process right andthen they're going to be fine.
We just have to get throughthis process right and then
(41:18):
they're going to be fine.
And I think, too sorry, this isnot a very organized thought,
but sometimes when parents havecome to you, their students have
already had some failures right.
They're coming for anevaluation for the first time,
and so I understand, as a parentmyself, like you've already
seen, your kids struggle to dothings and if, hopefully,
eventually, if a problem isidentified, they can have some
strategies that help them besuccessful.
(41:40):
But I think, when it comes tothe college stuff, that is the
place where parents are saying,oh my God, like it has to get
done.
You know they've already hadthese failure experiences and
now we have to make sure theyget through this and it's hard
for them to back off.
Make sure they get through thisand it's hard for them to back
off.
But all of these, you know,signs of a student's
(42:00):
demotivation or not lack ofmotivation, feel like they're
there.
So you know, have yousuccessfully convinced parents
whose kids are not participatingin this college application
process to back off, and whatwould you recommend for parents
who are seeing those signs?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
So the first thing we need to do is have
conversations with our kids.
We don't ask them.
I didn't do that either.
You know, it's just like you'regoing to college.
Let's just find one that kindof meets your needs, that you
like enough, and that's wherewe're going.
And so one of the things thatI've seen that sort of has
(42:37):
changed my mind is the number ofkids who have come back
depressed, anxious, failed, andso when you're talking about a
child who's already had multiplefailures in their lives or what
feels like failures orstruggles, to go into college
and then sort of have theultimate failure to have to, you
(42:58):
know, is just devastating, thennow we have a completely
different sort of situation.
Now we have a young adult whonow has no direction, and so so
I have convinced some parentsand it's a hard one, and it's
(43:18):
the discussion that I often havewith parents earlier in high
school rather than later.
We need to be thinking aboutwhat your child wants to do, and
sometimes what I find is theparents.
Their default is they'll liveat home and go to community
college.
Well, all right.
Their default is they live athome and go to community college
.
Well, all right, that's okay.
But the things that I look foris does your child really want
(43:42):
to go to college?
It is so expensive and I haveseen so many families mortgage
their house, deplete theirretirement savings, be in debt
for $250,000.
You know they're, you knowworking as an office
administrator, you know, andit's their whole salary.
(44:03):
And so you've got to know,first of all, does your child
love learning?
If that's, if the answer is yes, that's a valid reason to go to
college.
Even if you don't know what todo.
I love learning, I can't waitto go Great.
The other really good reason isyou know what you want to do.
I want to be a nurse.
I don't love school, but Ireally want to be a nurse.
I really want to teachpreschool.
(44:25):
I really.
That's another good reason.
And both of those, you know ifit's the second reason, we need
to have all hands on deck tofigure out how do we make this
child successful, how do we givethem the accommodations, the
support they need to besuccessful.
But both of those reasons aregreat reasons to go to college.
(44:52):
After that it gets kind ofcomplicated because it's
sometimes just the default,because they don't know what
they want to do, and we get veryanxious because we think, okay,
if they don't go to collegethis year, they'll never go and
so we need to have other sortsof ways of thinking.
The trades apprenticeshipsapplying to college and
deferring is another way to kindof feel like, okay, we've got a
(45:13):
plan, let's figure out somethings to do this year.
I oftentimes find that kids whohave learning differences, who
work at a job where they feelcompetent like working at a
coffee shop, working at ahardware store, the gap all of a
sudden they're like thesuperstar, they're really
hardworking, they know what itmeans to work hard, they've you
(45:37):
know.
All of a sudden they're like Ireally like the world of work,
but I want to just be a checkerall day at the coffee shop.
So I'm now motivated to go backto college and that deferment
that I took.
Maybe that's not where I want togo, maybe I want to reapply.
So I think having a lot ofdifferent options is really
(45:58):
important.
And the other thing I think,too, is that we can't leave out
the kids who want to go tocollege and can't Financial
reasons they don't have thefamily support that helps them
fill out the paperwork, like weneed to be thinking not just
(46:22):
about.
You know, the privileged kidswho you know aren't filling out
their college applications, butthe kids who aren't, who need
the support to do that as well.
So it's we just have to thinkabout this as a huge process
that kids need, you know, tohave a lot of agency in.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Wow, that's it, I think that's.
I want to keep talking.
Wow, I want to keep talking.
I want to keep going and going,and going.
(46:56):
Always motivated to go tocollege but isn't ready.
It doesn't have the executivefunction, the organization, all
of that and thinking about howto, how to deal with that.
So, in terms of being ready, interms of motivation, in terms
of caring about things I'mthinking about the title of your
book, kids who Couldn't CareLess what would you leave
(47:17):
parents with?
What is the bottom line if youcould?
Just here's what I want toleave you to think about.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
Oh, so this is what popped in my head when you said
this.
I've said this before Love thechild you have, not the child
you wish you had.
And I think that's what gets usin trouble a lot of times is we
don't look at the wonderful kidwe were given, we look at the
child who we dreamed about, andoftentimes, that child that we
dream about, we want them to doall the things we didn't do.
(47:48):
So the last thing I would sayis, as parents, we need to
figure out what we want to do,because the more that we are
motivated, the more that we aredoing things we love, we
oftentimes forget about thethings that give us pleasure.
We give our kids a terriblerole model for how to be
motivated, how to stay motivated, how to, you know, find the
pleasure in our life that helpsus, you know.
(48:10):
So I think that that's what Iwould leave them with.
You know, make sure you'refinding pleasure in your life
and make sure you're loving thekid that you have.
That wonderful kid who'swhatever?
Quirky, motivated, unmotivated,slow processors, speedy, speedy
, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (48:31):
Yeah, great thoughts.
So tell us one more time aboutboth of your books.
And if people, if people well,the two I have in my hand and if
they, if people want to followup, want to find out more, where
can they find you?
Speaker 3 (48:48):
So my website is very easy, it's just
ellenbroughtonphdcom, and wehave some, you know, articles
and things like that on there,podcasts like this we'll post on
there.
And then the two books.
The titles are very similar.
One is Bright Kids who Can'tKeep Up, that's about processing
speed, and then this one thatwe've talked about, bright Kids
(49:08):
who Couldn't Care Less.
So they're very different, eventhough the titles are very
similar.
The first one is really aboutkids with slower processing
speed and the other one is, ofcourse, about motivation.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
So, ok, great Thanks.
So I'm sure we've talked enoughthat I can imagine everybody's
going to want to go and read thebook.
So we are really grateful toyou for spending this much time
with us today and sharing thosethoughts, and we hope that
everybody will follow up andlots to think about.
(49:43):
So thank you so much to EllenBroughton for telling us about
motivation.
Thanks, thank you so much forhaving me.
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